Every class broken?LOL

[Wildfury77]

I'm a bit biased - as monk is my current favorite class (used to be my lvl 70 swashie) I think we rock!! But if you read here there seems to be no end of moaners.......i went through the other class forums and you all seem to be there too!! Bruisers/Paladins/Conjurers/Troubs etc,etc.......Most of these classes are NOT by any means broken -----> Its ok to suggest improvements but cut out the amateur dramatics <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Anyway i'm off to kill some freeps....laters

[Gasheron]

<p>Okay, so you've seen that there are threads here. Now, have you read them? and have you read the threads in the other classes?</p><p>Once you do that, then see the kinds of complaints that are being made, and compare them. Then, maybe, you can try and persuade us that we are fine the way we are.</p>

[Kota]

give me 1 good reason to bring a monk on a raid.  FD is not an answer.  "they couldn't fill the raid" is not an answer either.  monks are a tank class that no one wants to let tank.  and for good reason imo.  if you're one of those ppl that think monks are a dps class you're just wrong.  monks are in the fighter tree.

[Wildfury77]

I'm not yet an expert by any means.....but tier 3/4 tanking on PvP i find that i am superior to most PTs at MTank role....higher HPs,Much higher avoidance, not much worse mitigation in <u><b>tanking </b></u>fabled adorned tier 3 (and tier 4 fabled in bank). Agro holding doesn't seem to great a problem atm either. When i played my 70 swashie i regularly did nizara (before EoF) with a Monk Tanking it (this was before avoidance and defensive stance was boosted!). We could clear zone ultrafast......nizara with paladin/guard in relic i found much slower..... If my 2nd hand experience of tier 7 and 1st hand of tier 1-4 has shown me anything, monks can TANK anything! but <b><u><span style="color: #3300ff">must gear up towards tanking.</span></u></b> And speaking as an ex-career Roguetank.....sure swashies/brigands can do Labs as MT and solo PP.....but so can a monk & MUCH more easily TBH. If you want to play a DPS class, try the wizard forum <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I love hybrid classes (Rogues + brawlers) but never forgot that Rogues were DPSers who could tank a bit and Brawlers were tanks that could DPS a bit. Some of you guys have lost your way (or need to reroll). <b><i>If SoE do anything to Monks in next expansion - I hope they improve Monk AAs and tanking ability & not try and make us into Rogues (utility/DPS), otherwise i might as well play my swashie.</i></b>

[Wildfury77]

So my reply to Kota - prove yourself as a MT! (this would be helped if monks themselves believed they could tank.....and if any future boost focus on our PRIMARY role)......

[Kota]

ok i'm tank spec'd and have all mit adornments, and my guild would rather have a swash MT than me.  on raids, i end up in groups with nothing but a druid healing me.  so i have like no hp. 

[Foretold]

<p>The OP obviously plays PvP.  The monk is fine PvP.  The monk is fine solo.  The monk LACKS RAID UTILITY.  And needs their double attack back.</p><p>Please don't make sweeping generalizations about the monk class simply because  your monk does well in PvP.  Thats not a valid comparison, and it greatly hinders our chances of getting this class fixed.</p>

[selch]

His previous trolling was titled "Monks are Gods", in very first page of Monk board list.

[Wildfury77]

LOL....."trolling" - i posted that one because I do believe we rock at PvP...enjoying monk even more than swashie.....You want me to apologise and moan about a great class?! Get a grip man.

[Foretold]

<p>Apparantly you didn't read MY post just above the trolling post.  So allow me to reiterate.</p><p>Point One: Monks ARE great PvP.  Monks ARE great solo.  </p><p>Point Two: Monks are NOT great at tanking in groups.   Monks are WORTHLESS in raids.</p><p>You, as a PvPer, see the monk class from Point One.  The monk class is great for what you do with it.</p><p>For most of us coming from Point Two, however, the monk class is BROKEN.</p><p>Again, please stop making sweeping generalizations about a class based on your limited point of view.  I have played a monk and bruiser in PvP, solo, in groups, and in raids.  I have a total of four brawler toons on two accounts at all tiers.  I can tell you monks are broken.</p><p>The monk community is trying to draw developer attention to this matter, particularly as it pertains to Point Two.  Your sweeping generalizations do nothing but HARM the attemps of this community to address its issues.</p><p>If the monk class can be fixed, it will only benefit you MORE.  So just... stop. </p>

[Kota]

ok first, you can't even make conclusions about the end game monk based on t3/t4.  second, you can't compare your tanking to plate tanks when you are twinked to the gills, and the plate tanks yoiu compare yourself to probably aren't.  and to further my previous repsonse, i DO believe i can tank.  i tank way better than wizards and rangers. i tank better than plate tanks in  player made gear too.  so what.  pvp servers are about to be turned upside down, but lemme school you on end game pvp as it is now.  monks are far from "gods" in pvp.  monks are merely good at it.  in most situations.  you may be tearing thru ppl because it sounds like you're twinked completely out, and it also sounds like you may have been lvl locked at some point.  in solo pvp we have a very healthy dose of humble pie in the form of a classes we can't beat.  unless you start whuoopin out volatile fluids, ether, pumice stones, ds pots, freedom of minf pots, freedom of movement pots, and more i can't think of atm, you will not beat : shadow knights, swashbucklers, fury, and warden. brigands will be tough on you, unless you use freedom of mind, and keep totems up so you see them coming.  rangers will probably just own you, but if you have freedom of movement and mantis leap you have a shot.  at some point i've neem beat by almost every class toe to toe.  there is a lvl of skill involved but it's mostly the class and the gear.  my comparisson is based on averages btw.  if you find a really bad (any class) you will beat them.  i consider myself between average and good.  if anyone thinks i just suck for what i've said come see me on venekor and you can either fight me or inspect me.  or inspect me then fight me.  or....whatever

[selch]

He is probably get his [Removed for Content] handed to his swashbuckler (FOTM) by a monk who knows what he is doing in PVP so he decided to create one.

[Wildfury77]

Ok Selch...whatever you say <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Anyway i'm just trying to point out that we are not Broken....there are issues that can be improved on clearly BUT "broken?". As far as RAID functionality goes it would be far better that a "Tank class that can DPS a bit" gets its TANKING and AAs fixed rather than given more dps/utility.....unless you want them to merge Rogues and Monks! the general themes for raid fixes will end up pushing us in the direction of SWG....with classes disappearing. Lets not forget a monks primary role.....if AAs & Tanking made us an interesting and viable RAID MT or Offtank with reasonable DPS then would you really have a problem?? P.S. Swashie (FOTM) LOL....missed that ---> I've been a 70 swashie for 2years now! Oh well, guilty as charged.

[Gasheron]

<cite>Wildfury77 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok Selch...whatever you say <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Anyway i'm just trying to point out that we are not Broken....there are issues that can be improved on clearly BUT "broken?". As far as RAID functionality goes it would be far better that a "Tank class that can DPS a bit" gets its TANKING and AAs fixed rather than given more dps/utility.....unless you want them to merge Rogues and Monks! the general themes for raid fixes will end up pushing us in the direction of SWG....with classes disappearing. Lets not forget a monks primary role.....if AAs & Tanking made us an interesting and viable RAID MT or Offtank with reasonable DPS then would you really have a problem?? P.S. Swashie (FOTM) LOL....missed that ---> I've been a 70 swashie for 2years now! Oh well, guilty as charged. </blockquote><p> When you go on a raid, out of the 24 people raiding, how many are tanking?</p><p>When either warrior class has a much better tanking ability than we do, while still putting out at least the same DPS, why the hell would we be chosen for those 1 or 2 covetted spots?</p><p>We need something to get us into raids, and since there is only 1 or 2 tank spots for every raid, that means we can only be in one of the three other primary roles, healing (yeah, right, like we'll ever be recruited to be a healer), dps (which any caster, most scouts, and several fighters easily outdo us), or utility (which ours totals out at one group haste buff, a tiny defense debuff, and a crappy AA-based sta debuff)... Now, who's not broken?</p>

[Kota]

quite frankly any opinion formed about the state of the monk class at t4 is meaningless.  whether or not the game is blanced in the transition lvls is moot.  when the OP gets to 70 and realizes he has no place or purpose to be on a raid, i would like to see another post.  the monk class is broke as can be.  furthermore, the longer we stay broke, the harder it's gonna be to get into raids.  the utter gimpness of monks is no secret.  the gimpness of monks has already sunk into the mentality of eq.  they really need to get busy with this.  this whole situation is blowing my mind.  i still can't figure out why brawlers are the only fighters w/o a hp buff.  the ppl that want to be 'good' in eq2 are about fed up it would seem to me.  i'm one of those ppl.  all the effort i've put into my toon and any wise raid leader would put a scout with gear/spells half as good as mine in a raid b4 me.  even my guild is starting to feel sorry for me and my uselessness.

[Novusod]

Everyclass broken??? Hardly. A lot of people complain about troubs but the class is not broken if anything there is too much demand for bards in raids. The only classes that I see as broken are the two brawlers: monks and Bruisers. They have no role in raids. The solution I keep pushing is to make them take on the role group protectors in raids. To do this is simple change really. For Monks take their class defining ability Tsunami and make it a group (AE) buff. Bruisers would get a similar group (AE) version of their stone deaf. This would give raid guilds a reason to bring brawlers to raids and fix a lot of the complaints you hear about brawlers.

[Nerill]

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>For Monks take their class defining ability Tsunami and make it a group (AE) buff. Bruisers would get a similar group (AE) version of their stone deaf. This would give raid guilds a reason to bring brawlers to raids and fix a lot of the complaints you hear about brawlers. </blockquote>This idea has been brought up several times in several posts. It is such a good idea and <i>far</i> from overpowering. It would do <b>nothing</b> to help our solo-ability and would be a nice emergency CA. I can't see how it would trivialize <u>any</u> encounter. I just wish the Devs would think about it.

[Kota]

i don't like that idea.  fighter tree is tank tree.  after some thought i think that guardians are overpowered within the tank tree.  no reason for any other fighter class.  let alone monks who are the [Removed for Content] of the fighter tree.  don't think there's any way to fix this.  they ufkced it up beyong repair at this point. think i'll just start looking for something else to do with my time.  and no i don't wanna re roll a toon that doesn't suck.  why would i wanna sink all that time and effort into another toon when they will prolly just jack that one up too.

[Cirth_Beer]

dont waste time replying to <b><span style="color: #3366ff">Wildfury77</span></b> he doesnt even read the replies ... oh and btw i have a T2 swashbuckler and i have clearly the experience of the class since i created him 2 years ago and i can say they are sooo overpowered blahblablah....

[SaeriBr]

Oephelia@Najena wrote: <blockquote><p><snip></p><p>Point Two: Monks are NOT great at tanking in groups.   Monks are WORTHLESS in raids.</p><p><snip></p></blockquote><p> Why do alot of players say this exact same thing? If I keep my aviodance as high as possible and wear decent armor, and max out my defense skill, I pretty much prawn anything in a group as long as the healer is above Average and on the ball.</p><p>My only complaint with monks is directly after you level up, your skills are lower because the roof just got raised and can be troublesome initially when getting them back up again but thats only short lived.</p>

[Timaarit]

<cite>SaeriBrae wrote:</cite><blockquote>Oephelia@Najena wrote: <blockquote><p><snip></p><p>Point Two: Monks are NOT great at tanking in groups.   Monks are WORTHLESS in raids.</p><p><snip></p></blockquote><p> Why do alot of players say this exact same thing? If I keep my aviodance as high as possible and wear decent armor, and max out my defense skill, I pretty much prawn anything in a group as long as the healer is above Average and on the ball.</p><p>My only complaint with monks is directly after you level up, your skills are lower because the roof just got raised and can be troublesome initially when getting them back up again but thats only short lived.</p></blockquote>Since you asked... A warrior, even in not-so-decent armor with below average healer will be better of than the monk you presented. My zerker tanked Unrest with, at that time, t6 fabled armor and 1 masters (m2 choice), a few adept III's and mostly app4/a1's with a single healer who was not noted for his skill at healing. Then again my fully t7 fabled monk has also tanked the zone but with an exellent healer and with more difficulty than the zerk. Now if I am ever asked to tank any zone, I will take my zerker there. Unless there is some class specific drop that I want for my monk and that will only drop if the monk is in the group or I need the zone for some quest. When I am asked for DPS in some zone which has any group mobs, I will take my zerk. If I am asked to off-tank, I will take my zerk. There are some situations when I do prefer the monk just because I know that class better. But the statement that monks are worthless in raids is fairly accurate. My monk really doesnt bring anything to the raid that some other class couldnt do better. DPS? In equal groups, only bards, chanters and healers will dps less. Buffs? If the melee in group is properly buffed, any class will provide better buffs. Debuffs? Only classes with no bebuffs have it worse. Tanking? Even rogues tank better, they have higher mitigation and superior hate creation. Even in defensive stance they will do higher DPS than a monk in offensive and on that stance they will have higher mitigation than the monk in defensive. FD? My monk usually is killed by some AE and/or our necros will provide rez because they were out of range.

[Wildfury77]

<p>When playing my swashie - the fastest 3 times through Nizara were with 2 different MONK MTs.....monks who focus on tanking can be at least equal to "most" platetanks. Raid functionality is one thing and sounds like it needs some love but to claim that they are worse MTs than Rogues (which i do know a lot about) just shows a poster who clearly hasn't focused on monk tanking......</p><p>Roguetanks are good but NOT close to a dedicated monk tank. </p>

[Kota]

you're just wrong.  you're a swash.  you've seen the wis aa line.  you can add 13% to your hp, a healthy amount of uncontested avoidance, a healthy dose of mitigation, and a passive taunt that works like a guardians.  ya and how about that group taunt that's better than monk M1 group taunt eh.  not that you would really need taunts.  just do your normal dps and turn SD off.

[Zarvax]

<p>Okay...</p><p>I am a fully EoF fabled, fully tank specced monk... (9700 hp, 73% avoid, 48% mit self buffed) I can 100% GUARANTEE you that monks ARE broken when it comes to tanks.</p><p>I also have a 70 Swashbuckler... Semi-KoS fabled with Claymore in missing slots... DPS specced (STR/WIS for crits and double attack) I do more DPS than my monk... and can tank pretty close to as well as my monk (only thing that makes a difference here is that the swash has about 3k less HP due to gear, less avoid, but more mit)</p><p>So yah, Monks = Broken</p>

[Wildfury77]

<p>Maybe your right and i just IMAGINED a 70 monk speed through nizara as MT.......(that`was pre-defensive stance boost and pre-avoidance "fix&quot<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. I've also just imagined Monks doing EoF epics (admittedly with a swashie in the MT group transfering agro). BTW my rogue tank has amongest other AAs the stamina line final skill and AoE taunt at adept IV. Sure i can tank HoF  with one healer and Solo PPalace and do most of the EoF instances BUT unlike my monk friends I struggle to not die in nizara as MT!!! something they seem to do so easily.......i must have just imagined it all</p>

[Couching]

<cite>Wildfury77 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Maybe your right and i just IMAGINED a 70 monk speed through nizara as MT.......(that`was pre-defensive stance boost and pre-avoidance "fix"<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. I've also just imagined Monks doing EoF epics (admittedly with a swashie in the MT group transfering agro). BTW my rogue tank has amongest other AAs the stamina line final skill and AoE taunt at adept IV. Sure i can tank HoF  with one healer and Solo PPalace and do most of the EoF instances BUT unlike my monk friends I struggle to not die in nizara as MT!!! something they seem to do so easily.......i must have just imagined it all</p></blockquote>Your example didn't mean anything unless we know your gears and that monk gears. Moreover, even you are well geared, the more important factors are your group members. Besides, player skill is also important. Anyone has done Nizara will agree with me. Sometimes, you can do it flawless with skilled players, sometime, it's nightmare with less skilled players. If you are struggle not to die in nizara as MT, maybe you need better healer and mezzer.

[Zarvax]

<p>I have tanked Nizara...</p><p>I have done Nizara with an equally geared Guardian Tanking... it went much better</p><p>I have done Nizara with an equally geared Paladin Tanking... it went much better</p><p>Now, I'm not saying we should tank better than guardians or paladins.... but said Guardian out parses me consistently in raids... Paladins... I realy have no issues with Paladins.</p><p>I have also Tanked EoF epic mobs...</p><p>I have Tanked Gardener Thirgen and The Tender of Seedlings.  I have tanked Chel'Drak, I have tanked most of the KoS raids...</p><p>Just because I CAN doesn't mean I am doing it to the point that I should be, I take way too much spike damage doing so, and I take alot more healing.  I am fine with all this, I don't think we should be the best tanks there are, but currently, the way our DPS stands, we need to be better at tanking to compensate... Cause Warriors can out tank, out dps, and out utility us.</p>

[Ganeden]

<cite>Wildfury77 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not yet an expert by any means.....but tier 3/4 tanking on PvP i find that i am superior to most PTs at MTank role....higher HPs,Much higher avoidance, not much worse mitigation in <u><b>tanking </b></u>fabled adorned tier 3 (and tier 4 fabled in bank). Agro holding doesn't seem to great a problem atm either. When i played my 70 swashie i regularly did nizara (before EoF) with a Monk Tanking it (this was before avoidance and defensive stance was boosted!). We could clear zone ultrafast......nizara with paladin/guard in relic i found much slower..... If my 2nd hand experience of tier 7 and 1st hand of tier 1-4 has shown me anything, monks can TANK anything! but <b><u><span style="color: #3300ff">must gear up towards tanking.</span></u></b> And speaking as an ex-career Roguetank.....sure swashies/brigands can do Labs as MT and solo PP.....but so can a monk & MUCH more easily TBH. If you want to play a DPS class, try the wizard forum <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I love hybrid classes (Rogues + brawlers) but never forgot that Rogues were DPSers who could tank a bit and Brawlers were tanks that could DPS a bit. Some of you guys have lost your way (or need to reroll). <b><i>If SoE do anything to Monks in next expansion - I hope they improve Monk AAs and tanking ability & not try and make us into Rogues (utility/DPS), otherwise i might as well play my swashie.</i></b> </blockquote><p> Lol, here I was thinking you had a 70 brawler for comparison before you say that the class is fine. You have no idea, getting to level 30 or 40 isn't going to give you an outlook of the class in comparison to others at 70. Tanking stuff from level 1-40 gives you absolutely no idea what epic tanking is like. It sucks and there are CERTINALLY encounters that we CANNOT tank. </p><p>You regularly tanked labs as a rogue? I call BS on this one, not that it couldn't be done, but the swashbuckler would need uber gear and have an uber supporting cast for a couple of the mobs i here. Wow, you concede that we can tank labs easier then rogues can! Great!! We're fighters and you're not! You shouldn't even be able to tank labs. If you can MT labs then we should be able to parse equal to rogues when we want, isn't that the logic there???</p><p>You're no monk, you're just a rogue that doesn't want our dps up to waht it should be. We're the worst tanks in the fighter tree and berzerkers can dps better then us! We have absolutely no utility on raids and we're never allowed to tank. So what are we good for? Dps.</p><p> Don't call yourself a monk and claim to know the plights of the class at level 30, we don't need your biased opinion here</p>

[Wildfury77]

<p>Ganedan,</p><p>Read the posts. Your colleagues (70 brawlers) claimed that Rogues are better MTs than Monks NOT me!! Speaking as a Roguetank I simply confirmed that they are talking rubbish and you give me hard time!! Give those monks that think Rogues are better MTs a hard time not me! As for rogues tanking Labs - you can easily search the brigand forum in particular for screenshots and i seem to recall a nice video a while back...</p><p>When doing instances with my 70 swashie i prefer having a Monk/Bruiser or Zerker as MT - i love offensive players and respect their tanking ability. Just because i don't (yet) have 70 monk doesn't mean i don't`regularly group with 70 monks that can MT and put many PTs to shame.</p><p>Monks broken as MTs - not a chance!! Broken in raid group? sounds like it!!</p><p> P.S. And i make no appologies for being a Tier 4 and rising monk - maybe I will be disappointed but not so far <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Iseabeil]

<p>My highest plate tank is only tier3, so I really cant comment on them from the tanks perspective, but I do have level 70's of monk, warden, swashie and illusionist. As a warden, if I join a group and see the tank is a brawler, I stop any multitasking Im doin as I know that Im likely gonna have to work a lot harder then if its a plate tank. Sure, there are exceptions, the brilliant brawler and the lousy plate guy, but as a general rule I relax a LOT more when its a platey Im gonna keep alive. On my illusionist a brawler tank makes me get stun, stifles and even mezzes ready, tank go down, dps pull agro etc, whilst a plate tank Ill usually focus on just squeezing out all dps I can. Oh, and to a previous poster comparing monk dps to bards, chanters and healers... a coercer will be behind a monk, but a monk will not out-dps an illusionist unless extremely skilled and with the very best gear (or an illu that is either lazy, lousy or lacking in gear), thus putting monks another step lower in the parse. </p><p>When I play my monk, I <i>never</i> offer to tank in PUGs or for people I dont know. I simply dont feel comfortable enough in my abilities to be able to keep agro when a warlock start dropping their AEs, or RNG dislikes me and I get several hard hits in a row. It probably wouldnt be as bad as I fear, but that I should not feel comfortable in doin the main role of the class because of limiting mechanics is enough to make me feel the class is not working as it should. SoE made their first huge combat revamp because <i>all healers were to heal equally well</i>. How about all tanks tank equally well? Everyone knows that some healer classes excells in some areas, and some places you will prefer certain ones, but in general, all can do their main job, wich is to keep their group alive. How about all tanks being equal on their main job, with different ones excelling on different things. You want defiler and templar in your MT group, but you still want the other healer classes for other jobs, so whats wrong with wanting a warrior in MT group and the other tanks in the other groups, because they bring something that will increase the success of the raid? I dont expect brawlers to tank avatars or wuoshi, but itd be nice if both they and crusaders brought along skills that would make a difference. I doubt increased dps will work, if monks could do as much dps as sorcerors there would be a <i>lot</i> of screaming, allthou some increase wouldnt hurt, but seeing how brawlers have the least buffs of any class Ive played, they could well add some stuff there that would make them more wanted. The haste buff is pretty pathetic when compairing with what other classes have afterall.</p>

[Wildfury77]

<p>Ok.....I'll be honest. When i group with a brawler MT its with my 70 swashie who has Master 1 hate transfer - so a Monk MT holds Group agro very well.....</p><p>Maybe thats why i don't note any major problems with a monk MT <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Ganeden]

<cite>Wildfury77 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ganedan,</p><p>Read the posts. Your colleagues (70 brawlers) claimed that Rogues are better MTs than Monks NOT me!! Speaking as a Roguetank I simply confirmed that they are talking rubbish and you give me hard time!! Give those monks that think Rogues are better MTs a hard time not me! As for rogues tanking Labs - you can easily search the brigand forum in particular for screenshots and i seem to recall a nice video a while back...</p><p>When doing instances with my 70 swashie i prefer having a Monk/Bruiser or Zerker as MT - i love offensive players and respect their tanking ability. Just because i don't (yet) have 70 monk doesn't mean i don't`regularly group with 70 monks that can MT and put many PTs to shame.</p><p>Monks broken as MTs - not a chance!! Broken in raid group? sounds like it!!</p><p> P.S. And i make no appologies for being a Tier 4 and rising monk - maybe I will be disappointed but not so far <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote>Huh? Where do other brawlers say that rogues are better tanks. Show me some links, because I regularly visit these boards and have never seen that. Brawlers aren't broken when it comes to MTing heroics but we certinally are when it comes to epics.

[selch]

STOP FEEDING TROLLS!

[Timaarit]

Oh, but the rogues are better tanks than brawlers. They have higher mitigation and since avoidance is broken, the slightly smaller avoidance means nothing. They also have better taunts than brawlers if they spec their AA's for tanking. In addition to this, they have far superior aggro control by DPS. A tanking specced rogue in defensive stance will out-dps a DPS specced brawler in offensive stance with equal buffs. Oh, btw, this does not equal "brawlers are broken as MT's". Unless you think that rogues are. But since a rogue can also tank all heroic content in the game, I'd say they aren't.

[mr23sgte]

<cite>Wildfury77 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>When playing my swashie - the fastest 3 times through Nizara were with 2 different MONK MTs.....monks who focus on tanking can be at least equal to "most" platetanks. Raid functionality is one thing and sounds like it needs some love but to claim that they are worse MTs than Rogues (which i do know a lot about) just shows a poster who clearly hasn't focused on monk tanking......</p><p>Roguetanks are good but NOT close to a dedicated monk tank. </p></blockquote> IMO Fallen Dynasty content was built specifically for Brawler tanking - I can notice a huge difference in those zones vs any other instance zone.

[Wildfury77]

Ganedan - further up on this thread for starters...you will find sad loser monks claim Rogues are better MTs.. Selch - I'm no Troll, I love my monk and my 70 monk friends - i just hate the melodrama guys like you bring - sure its ok to say Raid functionality is broken but NOT ok to claim all aspects of a monk is broken.

[Timaarit]

Wildfury, have you EVER actually seen a rogue tank? Didn't think so. I have, been there as a monk and as a healer. When I was on my monk, I was designated to tank but I just couldn't keep aggro from the swashy even with hate transfer unless I was on offensive. And if I was on offensive, I got pwned and the swashy ended up tanking anyway. Same happens with a brig but to a slightly lesser degree. But then there are sad loser monks who make comments about others ability without knowing better.

[Wildfury77]

<b><i>"Wildfury, have you EVER actually seen a rogue tank? Didn't think so." </i></b> LOL - i have 70 swashie Roguetank that can MT most tier 7 instances BUT i know i'm an inferior MT to my monk friends. I think i'm more able to comment on Roguetanks than you!! And TBH what the hell are you doing if you can't keep agro with a swashies master 1 hate transfer and your Taunts and not insignificant DPS........

[Timaarit]

<cite>Wildfury77 wrote:</cite><blockquote><b><i>"Wildfury, have you EVER actually seen a rogue tank? Didn't think so." </i></b> LOL - i have 70 swashie Roguetank that can MT most tier 7 instances BUT i know i'm an inferior MT to my monk friends. I think i'm more able to comment on Roguetanks than you!! And TBH what the hell are you doing if you can't keep agro with a swashies master 1 hate transfer and your Taunts and not insignificant DPS........ </blockquote>Wrong question. The right question is that [Removed for Content] are YOU doing if your monk friends can keep aggro from your swashy. You see my swashy friends can out-dps basically anyone but manaburning wizard and lifeburning necro even while tanking. If you cant, then it is not because your monk friends are so good at tanking. And btw, what not insignificant dps? A monk does 1/2 of the DPS of a swashy that knows how to play. Edit. But now I know your agenda since you dont even have a high end monk. You just admitted not tanking any t7 content with your monk so your agenda is just to troll and try to prevent monks from being upgraded. You see otherwise you would have used wording 'I know I am inferior MT (as swashy) to MY monk' instead of 'my monk friends'.

[Themaginator]

<cite>Kota wrote:</cite><blockquote>give me 1 good reason to bring a monk on a raid.  FD is not an answer.  "they couldn't fill the raid" is not an answer either.  monks are a tank class that no one wants to let tank.  and for good reason imo.  if you're one of those ppl that think monks are a dps class you're just wrong.  monks are in the fighter tree. </blockquote> you do damage...thats all you need.  If you  picked a monk to be a main tank you're sadly mistaken, just because its in the fighter tree doesn't make it a main tank.

[Kota]

oh noe yew ditn't... ok, why not have monks as MT's ?  did you research eq2 before launch ?  did you read the instruction book ?  where did it say what class was gonna be MT for raids ?  i musta skimmed right over that part.  well, no, come to think of it, no i didn't.  i couldn't wait for this game to launch because i was very much sick of eq1.  i remember them claiming all fighter classes were going to be tanks.  i remember them saying they would all have strong points, and be better at tanking in their own ways.  you think plate tanks are the only MT's why ?  <u><b>your attitude only reinforces the broken state of the monk.  </b></u> no btw, i didn't make my monk to be a MT.  i played a war in eq1 and i got tired of always tanking.  i made my monk to be a backup tank with decent dps.  i pretty much get neither one of these.  rogues get better tanking aa's and double my dps.  other fighters have more dps tools than me.  other tanks have more tanking tools than me.  i'm here to tell you my class is broken. seriously, don't come at me with 'you do damage' as a reason to bring a monk on a raid.  be real.  a clockwork contraption does damage.  if your raid leader is bringing a monk because they do damage your raid is short filled.  about 15 other classes can at least match monk dps.  i've read about some templars that parse as high as monks on raid mobs.  oh, and hey, they can heal too. don't come at me with 'you do damage' that's just weak.  volatile fluid does damage.  brock's thermal shocker does damage. 

[Themaginator]

i<cite>Kota wrote:</cite><blockquote>oh noe yew ditn't... ok, why not have monks as MT's ?  did you research eq2 before launch ?  did you read the instruction book ?  where did it say what class was gonna be MT for raids ?  i musta skimmed right over that part.  well, no, come to think of it, no i didn't.  i couldn't wait for this game to launch because i was very much sick of eq1.  i remember them claiming all fighter classes were going to be tanks.  i remember them saying they would all have strong points, and be better at tanking in their own ways.  you think plate tanks are the only MT's why ?  <u><b>your attitude only reinforces the broken state of the monk.  </b></u> no btw, i didn't make my monk to be a MT.  i played a war in eq1 and i got tired of always tanking.  i made my monk to be a backup tank with decent dps.  i pretty much get neither one of these.  rogues get better tanking aa's and double my dps.  other fighters have more dps tools than me.  other tanks have more tanking tools than me.  i'm here to tell you my class is broken. seriously, don't come at me with 'you do damage' as a reason to bring a monk on a raid.  be real.  a clockwork contraption does damage.  if your raid leader is bringing a monk because they do damage your raid is short filled.  about 15 other classes can at least match monk dps.  i've read about some templars that parse as high as monks on raid mobs.  oh, and hey, they can heal too. don't come at me with 'you do damage' that's just weak.  volatile fluid does damage.  brock's thermal shocker does damage.  </blockquote> ok i'm just saying my friend is quite good at playing his monk and doing damage and he can tank groups, and well i've seen other monks top the DPS charts on raids so, monks arent useless...

[Timaarit]

Sashtan@Mistmoore wrote:<blockquote> ok i'm just saying my friend is quite good at playing his monk and doing damage and he can tank groups, and well i've seen other monks top the DPS charts on raids so, monks arent useless... </blockquote>I have topped zonewide dps chart on raid. But there were no sorcerers, summoners, rogues, predators, crusaders nor zerkers in that raid. And even then the MT guardian and defiler occasionally beat me. But hey, I did top the zonewide. Nevermind the fact that the 'raid' was 1,5 groups of 70's in Courts... As for a monk toppin DPS chart, then the classes that were missing on my raid were really slacking. You see only time I can actually top the DPS chart with my monk is with the second chaperon in MMIS when the others have their big hits down from the previous one.

[Ramius613]

<p>First off, as a monk, I am not setup to tank.  I've been that way since lvl10, and I don't intend to change.  I love my monk. The fact that I can get farther into zones than anyone else in the game solo is AWESOME, time consuming but awesome.  Yes monks are pretty much worthless on raids.  The only utility we might even remotely have is giving our avoidance to the MT if there isn't one of the other better classes along.  As far as tanking goes, it just takes a different approach.  Granted this approach is COMPLETELY different than any other fighter class, but if you have your group ASSISTING, yes have them set up a macro, and you switch between the mobs every 5 sec or so, you should have no problem holding aggro.  DPS wise, we can be decent to good, depending on the zone, I can crank out 1300-1500 dps, and that's without full adornments, and not many melee buffs.  With an ideal group setup, imo Monk, Defiler, Dirge, Illusionist, Coercer, and (insert class name here).  I can tank anything in the game, and knock out INSANE dps in a raid.  However, this is usually not the normal situation, and I'm back to mediocre dps.</p><p>Tanking, they should take our mitigation and avoidance, and make them the opposite of Plate wearers.</p><p>DPS give us dbl atk w/ weapons before you "Fix" the AA.</p>

[Kota]

if you've seen a monk top the parse on raids your guild needs to fire all their scouts.  from a cannon.  into outer space.  i play my monk pretty well, and i don't touch the parse.  it's filled with, well, dps classes.  give me a dirge and i'll come close to a melee scout w/o a dirge, but why would you put a monk with a dirge, and not a melee scout.  i've seen just about every class in eq2 tank groups.  i've tanked groups on my melee spec'd warden.  tank was being lazy and pulling slow so i just went to work.  ya my monk tanks alot better than my warden.  woopedy dooooo.  i see warlocks tank in my groups all the time when i play my monk, because the 1 lil group taunt monks get is no where near enough to keep aggro from a warlock w/o me switching targets 10 times a second.

[Kota]

<cite>Ramius613 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>First off, as a monk, I am not setup to tank.  I've been that way since lvl10, and I don't intend to change.  I love my monk. The fact that I can get farther into zones than anyone else in the game solo is AWESOME, time consuming but awesome.  Yes monks are pretty much worthless on raids.  The only utility we might even remotely have is giving our avoidance to the MT if there isn't one of the other better classes along.  As far as tanking goes, it just takes a different approach.  Granted this approach is COMPLETELY different than any other fighter class, but if you have your group ASSISTING, yes have them set up a macro, and you switch between the mobs every 5 sec or so, you should have no problem holding aggro.  DPS wise, we can be decent to good, depending on the zone, I can crank out 1300-1500 dps, and that's without full adornments, and not many melee buffs.  With an ideal group setup, imo Monk, Defiler, Dirge, Illusionist, Coercer, and (insert class name here).  I can tank anything in the game, and knock out INSANE dps in a raid.  However, this is usually not the normal situation, and I'm back to mediocre dps.</p><p>Tanking, they should take our mitigation and avoidance, and make them the opposite of Plate wearers.</p><p>DPS give us dbl atk w/ weapons before you "Fix" the AA.</p></blockquote>your idea for holding aggro while tanking works for exp groups yes, but is completely invalid for raids.  besides have you ever tried assisting someone who keeps switching targets ?  that's so annoying.  not to mention you're keeping the mob encounter at it's full dps for longer than if you can burn them down one at a time.  our aggro is sad, except for single target mobs, which we are ok.  mostly. as far as having avoidance/mit opposite of plate tanks, it pretty much is.  a problem with this is that there are multiple ways to buff avoidance.  how do you buff mitigation ?  anyway avoidance is nothing you can count on for raid content.  fact.  not sure what your idea of 'insane dps' is, but i'm not doing anything impressive as far as dps.  3k is 'insane' to me.  my 1200 in a nice setup group is paltry.  monks aren't a dps class.

[Shrin]

What is this huge fixation on raiding? All I ever here is we do not raid well. So what if we do not raid as well as other classes. If we were able too, then some other class would be at the bottom of the raid totem poole and they would complain. We rock on our own and we are good in groups. Exact opposite of Gaurdians who rock in raids and suck on their own. That is the nature of our class we are better at some things and worse at others. Why should we be as good as plate tanks at raiding? Why should they be as good as us solo? Cant the classes be differant? Even if we became needed in raids the plate tanks would still be the MT because they would have an edge over us. If they didnt then they would scream about it, just like many of us here. Now I would like to have some necissary part in raids but I dont need it. I still can go on raids and my guild will not turn me away if I want to play. If yuor guild is obsessed with the "perfect" raid group and will not let you come I would recomend switching guilds not "fixing brawlers".

[Kota]

that's just ridiculous.  i'm supposed to find another guild because soe can't fix my class ?  or roll another toon ?  no....life isn't fair, but this is a video game and they can at least try to make it fair.  the classes ARE all different.  so what if we can FD around.  name a class that is less useful on a raid.  i dare you.  and ya, about the raiding....what else do you do when you're lvl 70 with 100aa ?  i, for one, would like to better my toon.  how, pray tell, do you do that ?  raid.  i'm not interested in making 50 lil alts.  as far as monks doing well in groups, picture this:  a protector spec'd templar, a monk, and a swashbuckler trio.  monk puts avoidance buff on swash. templar puts avoidance buff on swash.  swash tanks so much better than the monk, while double and tripling the monk's dps, that the monk starts looking at a new game to spend his hard earned money on.  true story. why would the monk not be tanking to begin with ?  because the swash has better group aggro control by virtue of dps alone.  because the swash is wasting power and losing dps trying to detaunt. if you think being able to FD and getting to look at neat animations is worth the overall suckiness of the class, well that's your opinion.

[Shrin]

Sorry I did not respond before now but my computer time is limited Kota. Well I am not saying just find another guild. BUt I am saying that I would not be apart of a guild that denied its members the fun of raids just because their class is not "optimol". Guilds are about friends and family. A group of players that help one another out and have fun doing it. I find it sad that some guilds put getting "phat lootz" over having fun with all their guildies. Ok now on too your example of the temp, swash, and brawler. true the swash is a great class but if that brawler is not better at tanking, then that brawler needs to take a look at his gear, aas, and stratagy. Because we are a better tank then a swash. (or at least I am better tanking with my brawler then my swash) Finally what to do when you hit 70 and 100 aa's? I dont know what you do but what I do is tradeskill, mentor my guild mates, and yes play alts. I have raided as well but it never realy tickled my fancy. I fully admit we could use some love. But I still think we are alot of fun to play and isnt that the most important thing? Raiding is but one small part of the eq2 experiance. To focus on but one part does a diservice to the player s that play the other parts. Obviously other parts work or there would not be anyone on these boards to talking about raiding at leval 70.

[Gasheron]

<p>So, Basically you're saying that Monks shouldn't be able to get Fabled equip, and get AAs from epic mobs, or participate in quests that involve raid zones? Raiding may be a small part of the game, but it IS a part of the game. We pay the same amount as everyone else, so we should be able to experience the same things as everyone else.</p><p>It's not just that we are at the bottom of the raiding preference, but that we are so low that it's hard to even get into a raid or raid guild. Most raid guilds don't even let Monks apply, unless they are already fully decked out in mastered abilities and Fabled equip, which comes from, where? Raids. </p><p>BTW Guilds are NOT only "about friends and family." If you haven't noticed, there is a thing called a "raid guild" that is a group of people with the objective of experiencing the top end and highest challenges the game has to offer. They are the elites, the hardcore, the businessmen and women of Norrath who focus on getting ahead and working hard. And they are perfectly legitimate.</p><p>If you honestly think that having trouble even getting into a raid isn't a problem, I've got a link for you.</p><p><a href="http://eq2.xanadu-community.com/eq2_loot.php" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://eq2.xanadu-community.com/eq2_loot.php</a> </p><p>Go there and look at some of the equipment. If you can honestly say that you don't want anything from that website, then I'll agree with you.</p><p>Why can't swashies tank better than us? First, they have near our avoidance naturally. Second, they wear chain, so they have a higher mit. Third, they deal more dmg so they gain more agro than we do through damage. Fourth, they have a better AE taunt than we do, through their AAs. Swashies can and will tank better than we do, and are often preferred over a monk as a tank by the general populace.</p>

[Zarafein]

I'am sure most would like this gear, but many would't join guilds were friendship,family and fun are left behind just to get them.

[Kota]

Mystwing@Unrest wrote: <blockquote> Ok now on too your example of the temp, swash, and brawler. true the swash is a great class but if that brawler is not better at tanking, then that brawler needs to take a look at his gear, aas, and stratagy. Because we are a better tank then a swash. (or at least I am better tanking with my brawler then my swash) </blockquote>brawler tanking is better than swash tanking only marginally.  they have far better tanking aa's.  they can add 13% hp, a group taunt better than brawler, and make us look stupid in dps.  we can add 4% hp (even a ranger can add 3x this much) and basically get lackluster aa's.  i for one, am always looking for better ways to do things.  a swash with templar avoidance buff, and monk avoidance buff, if a CLEARLY better tank, and they don't have to worry about ditching aggro.  try this out.  you might delete your monk on the spot.  we have nothing.  we can do a lil better dps now with wis line changes but still just bla.  yay i can out dps a poorly geared scout.

[Frain]

Lhangion@Innovation wrote: <blockquote>I'am sure most would like this gear, but many would't join guilds were friendship,family and fun are left behind just to get them.</blockquote> The raid guilds most often doesn't want monk, that's true, and even if you are in a casual raiding guild, wouldn't you prefer to actualy be able to do something to help your friends in the raid except taking up a slot that a pure dps could have? If you realy want to help your friends you should reroll and play another class, becoes at the moment you are only a burden. Doesn't that make you feel lovely? It's true we are a good solo class, but we can't solo stuff that other classes can(i've never seen a monk solo poet's palace for example, while alot of pure dps-classes can take it). In groups we do ok.. we are very low on dps compared to others, and we can tank if there is no other option. In raids, we just suck. Looking at it, we are actualy quite far down on all three parts that make this game.. jay...

[MadLordOfMilk]

The problem here is that, just like EVERY OTHER TIER, there's the same problem: PLATE TANKS can get ridiculous amounts of avoidance. Yeah, diminishing returns really worked /sarcasm. Also nice is that diminishing returns really hurts the already-small edge brawlers had in the Max HP department... <img src="/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Dorieon]

(Insert zone here) looking for plate tank. Nuff said.

[Aonach]

<cite>Kota wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>your idea for holding aggro while tanking works for exp groups yes, but is completely invalid for raids.  besides have you ever tried assisting someone who keeps switching targets ?  that's so annoying.  not to mention you're keeping the mob encounter at it's full dps for longer than if you can burn them down one at a time.  our aggro is sad, except for single target mobs, which we are ok.  mostly.</p><p><span style="color: #ff6600">Ermmm, you don't raid much do you? Thats one of the reasons why raids have a Main Assist or MA so the tank can cycle targets and taunt them to keep agro. </span> as far as having avoidance/mit opposite of plate tanks, it pretty much is.  a problem with this is that there are multiple ways to buff avoidance.  how do you buff mitigation ?  anyway avoidance is nothing you can count on for raid content.  fact.</p><p><span style="color: #ff6600">If you want more mitigation then buy some adornments or do the claymore quest line  </span> not sure what your idea of 'insane dps' is, but i'm not doing anything impressive as far as dps.  3k is 'insane' to me.  my 1200 in a nice setup group is paltry.  monks aren't a dps class. </p><span style="color: #ff6600">You should be doing more than 1200 DPS if yo uare in a "nice" setup group.</span></blockquote>

[Kota]

all i really do is raid.  yes i know the mt cylcles targets but plate tanks have better group aggro anyway.  would love to see a monk try to hold aggro on a group of raid mobs.  i have every mit adorn available. and no, i can't do more than 1200 dps zw in any group.  i can spike higher dps but who gives a rat's a$$ about spikes.  what, you d fist a pet, then turn your parser off and brag about how you did 4 billion dps ?

[Aonach]

<cite>Kota wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>all i really do is raid.  yes i know the mt cylcles targets but plate tanks have better group aggro anyway.  would love to see a monk try to hold aggro on a group of raid mobs.  #</p><p><span style="color: #ff6600">Well I don't see what you point was about trying to assist a tank who switches targets then? Also it's just hard work for a monk to keep agro, not impossible. Remember Monks aren't or ever were designed to primarily be a raid tank.</span> i have every mit adorn available.</p><p><span style="color: #ff6600">Well you mit should be "alright" then</span> and no, i can't do more than 1200 dps zw in any group.  i can spike higher dps but who gives a rat's [I cannot control my vocabulary] about spikes.  what, you d fist a pet, then turn your parser off and brag about how you did 4 billion dps ?</p><p><span style="color: #99ff33">In a decnet raid group build with decent gear you should be parsing 1400+ </span></p></blockquote>

[Kota]

who wants a freakin exp group tank who has to cycle targets constantly ?  yes my mit is decent for a monk, but plenty of plate tanks have avoidance that would make a monk say wt f and no, 1400 just isn't likely.  not with tank oriented aa's.  too many multi mob encounters that send your dps into a dive.  then the whole death thing.  kinda hurts dps.  besides if i really cared about dps I WOULD HAVE ROLLED A DPS CLASS BTW please give me a link to what monks 'were designed' to be. 

[Aonach]

Kota - It's not up to the devs to tell you what your class is meant to be. It's up to you to use your imagination and the skills/tools provided to you to find out what your role is and should be. If you can't do that maybe you should go role a "pure" class like a guardian. You will know what you are meant to do then since you seem to have such a problem with the monk path.

[Kota]

you're the one that referred to the 'design' of the monk.  i just downloaded the manual and it didn't say anything about who was gonna MT raids. what's not 'pure' about the brawler classes ?  we don't cast spells.  pal/sk are your hybrid classes. oh oh oh, use my imagination and tools to determine my job ?  less tanking than the rest of the fighter tree.  less dps than scout tree.  ok, i have determined my job to be : excess personnel.  this is why so many monks are upset with their toons.  we don't even get a hp buff for crying out loud.  true bstrds of the fighter tree.

[Timaarit]

<cite>Aonach wrote:</cite><blockquote>Kota - It's not up to the devs to tell you what your class is meant to be. It's up to you to use your imagination and the skills/tools provided to you to find out what your role is and should be. If you can't do that maybe you should go role a "pure" class like a guardian. You will know what you are meant to do then since you seem to have such a problem with the monk path.</blockquote>Well that is the problem. With the skills that a monk has, the only thing I can think monks can be is a mediocre solo class and lower than average tanks for instances. Sure, monks can survive a lot when soloing but monks really cant kill that tough encounters. This means that while I can get solo to certain questmobs meant for groups, I cant kill them. Sure, monks can tank the heroic content in game. But every plate tank can do it easier. Also a few classes that are not even fighters can tank those just as easy if not even easier. Thing is that 'monks are hybrid class' is an old statement and an invalid one too. If you look at zerkers, they are much better at tanking, they are good at soloing and they even do more DPS than monks. Guardians are even better tanks and only slightly worse DPS even when specced for tanking. So statement that a guardian is a pure class is also incorrect. Guardians can fill out other roles besides MT:ing.

[Aonach]

<p>To may people moaning "we aren't godlike and uber, waaahhhhh!" and throwing their rattles out of the pram.</p><p>Tell you what then, just keep whining about how terrible we are. The devs will sort it if you do that. Yeah right. No point in debating with people who are so negative about the class they play.</p><p>* edited for clarity so I wouldn't get put into the moaners group =)</p>

[Wildfury77]

<p>I don't understand why some of you don't just reroll - i've never heard such negative rubbish about a good class. When i did PvE at lvl 70 with a swashie(post EoF) my regular tanks were a well equipped paladin,monk and zerker......and i can tell you right now the monk was no poor relation!!! </p><p>On PvP, sure i'm only level 33 but enjoy this class immensely. I regularly MT and get tons of tells from other players at my level as soon as i log on (i obviously suck?). Unlike some of the serial whiners (just read above) I think we are far from broken, but are needing some love:</p><p>1) Increase Group taunting</p><p>2) An Extra group buff ----> we only give one which is nice but kinda sucks! Why not let us grant a small group avoidance buff?</p><p>3) A slight increase to our personal avoidance - mitigation is all very well, but we are masters of not being hit.</p><p>The above is hardly game breaking but would maybe silence the moaners.......i doubt it though <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>P.S. just wait for the ridiculous (unconstructive) *we suck* posts *you hate us* that will follow this one. Why on earth don't you start being honest? and a little more constructive.....big sigh!!</p>

[Timaarit]

I did reroll. Currently playing a zerker that is doing better DPS and is far superior in tanking even with worse gear than what the monk has. Monk is good for farming ?'s. I think that it is not what was intended though.

[Aonach]

I play both too and if your zerker is out DPSing your monk then your playing your monk wrong. Zerks are awesome tanks tho.

[Timaarit]

Or I am playing the zerk correctly. I do big pulls with the zerk even when soloing. The AE damage results in much higher overall DPS for the zerk.

[Aonach]

<p>So this discussion has went from a monks ability to raid to comparing a monks DPS against a zerks DPS while soloing trash? haha thats brilliant.</p><p>Monks are a great class. We could be doing with being brought into line a little more with bruisers but comparing monks against guardians and zerks is like comparing a fury to a cleric. Totally pointless!</p>

[Kota]

i don't play one, but it's my understanding that bruisers suck just like monks. 

[Wildfury77]

<p>Constructive as ever i see. Two great classes both getting bad mouthed now......</p><p>Been thinking i could streamline my suggestion to aid monks to </p><p>1) AoE taunt - already gets AA boost to effectiveness. What it needs is a faster Reuse timer</p><p>2) Group avoidance buff - would boost our tanking and style + also give something to the group.</p><p>3) You could increase our debuff but that would definately be third on my list.</p>

[Timaarit]

<cite>Aonach wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>So this discussion has went from a monks ability to raid to comparing a monks DPS against a zerks DPS while soloing trash? haha thats brilliant.</p><p>Monks are a great class. We could be doing with being brought into line a little more with bruisers but comparing monks against guardians and zerks is like comparing a fury to a cleric. Totally pointless!</p></blockquote>Brilliant! Now that you noticed how weak your arguments were, you turned your coat and claimed that the discussion you took part into, is on fact stupid. Just brilliant! And last paragraph, again you are incorrect. DPS is nothing like heals on parse and tanking capability is easilily checked. Even you said zerkers are better tanks. So want to try another smokescreen?

[Timaarit]

Wildfury, your ideas wont do anything to the uselessness of monks in raids. They will not make monks desirable raidtanks now will they give us utility nor DPS to warrant a spot.

[Kota]

it's all relative you see.  the 'badmouthing' as you call it is comparison.  if Mario from Mario brothers was introduced into this game there would be need for improvement.  the abilities of other classes are a basis for comparison.  i like your ideas tho.  i'm still crusading for a hp buff tho. Mario and Mario brothers are registered trademarks of Nintendo.

[Aonach]

<cite>Timaarit wrote:</cite><blockquote>Brilliant! Now that you noticed how weak your arguments were, you turned your coat and claimed that the discussion you took part into, is on fact stupid. Just brilliant! And last paragraph, again you are incorrect. DPS is nothing like heals on parse and tanking capability is easilily checked. Even you said zerkers are better tanks. So want to try another smokescreen? </blockquote><p>Timaarit, every single monk and bruiser who reads these forums and can actually play their class knows you are talking a lot of horsehit. Zerkers are better "raid tanks" of course they are better "raid tanks". At no time did I ever say Guardians and zerkers aren't better "raid tanks" than monks. Please stop slavering nonsense and go and learn to play the class you have instead of coming on here whining about how bad it is because you can't. </p>

[Gasheron]

<p>*yawn* This is really depressing and annoying...</p><p>In a group (not a raid, but a plain old 6 member group) there are four possible roles for any person to fit into. Because there are only 6 people, some of the people there can touch on multiple roles, but still only focus on one of the 4 different tasks. These roles are tanking, healing, dps, and utility.</p><p>How many of the other 23 classes in the game would YOU prefer to have as a tank?</p><p>How many of the other 23 classes in the game would YOU prefer to have as a healer?</p><p>How many of the other 23 classes in the game would YOU prefer to have as dps?</p><p>How many of the other 23 classes in the game would YOU prefer to have for their utility?</p><p>In a raid, where there are 24 people instead of 6, the ability to touch on another role besides the primary role you are filling becomes harder and less effective. The roles become more singled out. Whatever hybrid capabilities a class has doesn't make the class stronger in a raid, as they are there to fill a specific role, not multiple.</p><p>If YOU can't see the problems the Monk class is facing, YOU must be blind...</p>

[Timaarit]

<cite>Aonach wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Timaarit wrote:</cite><blockquote>Brilliant! Now that you noticed how weak your arguments were, you turned your coat and claimed that the discussion you took part into, is on fact stupid. Just brilliant! And last paragraph, again you are incorrect. DPS is nothing like heals on parse and tanking capability is easilily checked. Even you said zerkers are better tanks. So want to try another smokescreen? </blockquote><p>Timaarit, every single monk and bruiser who reads these forums and can actually play their class knows you are talking a lot of horsehit. Zerkers are better "raid tanks" of course they are better "raid tanks". At no time did I ever say Guardians and zerkers aren't better "raid tanks" than monks. Please stop slavering nonsense and go and learn to play the class you have instead of coming on here whining about how bad it is because you can't. </p></blockquote>Ah yes. That is the reason why all who think brawlers are great DPS come here and state 'I know a brawler who can' instead of 'I can'. So it is you who talk the [Removed for Content].

[Aonach]

<p>You are all either not reading what I am writing or choosing to ignore so you can all whine more. I CAN do all or most of the things in game that you want "sorted" by devs. I was on a pickup raid last night in labs and we all know how crap pick up raids are. I was parsing 1100 dps. The bruiser was parsing 1200 dps. I was off tanking epic adds with no problem whatsover.</p><p>Sure i would like more DPS, sure I would like more tanking ability, sure I would like to evac, sure I would like to heal more, sure I would like.... you get the picture. All I'm saying is that three is nothing so broken with the class that all the justifies all moaning and whining in here. No wonder the devs don't read these forums and make the tweaks the monk might need, they can't find the good posts from the "I want more just because I think we are crap" posts!</p><p>Incidentally if you don't get groups as either a tank or DPS then you just ain't doing it right.</p><p>Oh yeah, I'm not going to repsond anymore in this thread because stapling my tongue to the desk would have about the same impact as talking to people like you who are so negative about the monk. You should all go play wizards or swashies.</p>

[Timaarit]

<cite>Aonach wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>You are all either not reading what I am writing or choosing to ignore so you can all whine more. I CAN do all or most of the things in game that you want "sorted" by devs. I was on a pickup raid last night in labs and we all know how crap pick up raids are. I was parsing 1100 dps. The bruiser was parsing 1200 dps. I was off tanking epic adds with no problem whatsover.</p><p>Sure i would like more DPS, sure I would like more tanking ability, sure I would like to evac, sure I would like to heal more, sure I would like.... you get the picture. All I'm saying is that three is nothing so broken with the class that all the justifies all moaning and whining in here. No wonder the devs don't read these forums and make the tweaks the monk might need, they can't find the good posts from the "I want more just because I think we are crap" posts!</p><p>Incidentally if you don't get groups as either a tank or DPS then you just ain't doing it right.</p><p>Oh yeah, I'm not going to repsond anymore in this thread because stapling my tongue to the desk would have about the same impact as talking to people like you who are so negative about the monk. You should all go play wizards or swashies.</p></blockquote>Or the YOU are ignoring it. Currently I parse about 1,5k zonewide in labs with both my zerk and monk. The groupsetup for both is usually the same, MT group. The zerk is MT and tanks everything while with the monk, I am just DPS while a guardian or another zerk tanks everything. First time I tanked the zone with the zerk, I had 4 t6 fabled pieces and no t7 fabled items, no wipes though I did die twice. On that attemp, a swashy picked the mobs when I died and tanked them to the end. Noteworthy is that while I am parsing 1,5k, the swashy in my group parses 2,5k+. So you are ignoring the fact that everything in this game is comparable, you cannot just state like 'I am doing 1,1k DPS so we are fine', you need to compare that DPS to everyone else in that raid. Granted, I am doing twice the DPS with the monk I was doing on my very first raid. And with the DPS I am now doing, I would have topped the parse back then easily. But back then, I was on the same position as now, one of last of the DPS classes. Only classes that will lose to me basically are crusaders, though even they can get higher if they get illusionist and dirge on their group. And go ahead and flee, it is not like you had anything to say anyway.

[Nerill]

<cite>Aonach wrote:</cite><blockquote>Oh yeah, I'm not going to repsond anymore in this thread because stapling my tongue to the desk would have about the same impact as talking to people like you who are so negative about the monk. You should all go play wizards or swashies.</blockquote><u><i><b>THANK GOD !!!!</b></i></u> Because you are indeed a foolish little Monk. Well, actually, you have posted <b>way</b> more on the Zerker forums so it sort of makes me wonder where your allegiance is. Funny, if Monks are <i>so perfect</i> the way we are ..... this genius is leveling up a Zerker ( a tank class that <b>easily</b> out tanks us and sometimes out DPS's us and <i>usually</i> comes pretty close ( within 100 - 200 DPS <b>while tanking</b> ).

[Cirth_Beer]

Banzai@Unrest wrote: <blockquote><cite>Aonach wrote:</cite><blockquote>Oh yeah, I'm not going to repsond anymore in this thread because stapling my tongue to the desk would have about the same impact as talking to people like you who are so negative about the monk. You should all go play wizards or swashies.</blockquote><u><i><b>THANK GOD !!!!</b></i></u> Because you are indeed a foolish little Monk. Well, actually, you have posted <b>way</b> more on the Zerker forums so it sort of makes me wonder where your allegiance is. Funny, if Monks are <i>so perfect</i> the way we are ..... this genius is leveling up a Zerker ( a tank class that <b>easily</b> out tanks us and sometimes out DPS's us and <i>usually</i> comes pretty close ( within 100 - 200 DPS <b>while tanking</b> ). </blockquote>Don't fall in class fight Banzai it will do us no good <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Nerill]

I'm <b>not</b> calling for a Zerker nerf. Just pointing out yet another comparison of a "fighter" class that can completely and totally out-tank us while maintaining close to our DPS and sometimes better. And this troll comes in here defending the current state of the Brawler classes while he is leveling up one of the more powerful classes (Zerker) at this point in the game. ( Tanking ability and DPS ability )

[Shankonia]

Sashtan@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote>iKota wrote: ok i'm just saying my friend is quite good at playing his monk and doing damage and he can tank groups, and well i've seen other monks top the DPS charts on raids so, monks arent useless... </blockquote><p> I'm good at playing my Monk.  I can tank groups.  I was the first Monk that I know of to tank Nizara.  I destroy any EoF group instance while tanking in just about any setup.  (Warlock, Wizzy, Brig, Ranger, 1 healer, me tanking excluded because then i'm not tanking)  I've topped DPS charts on raids....nope, havn't done that.</p><p>I have come close though numerous times.  Maybe it's because I have every single KoS drop on my Monk and some decent EoF stuff which makes me better geared two fold than anyone else in my guild.  Maybe it's because I play my Monk very well as he's been my main toon since release.  Maybe, it's because everyone else who played on my level has already 'graduated' to a hardcore guild as their classes are needed and recruited while I am still caught in casual land raiding with untrained noobs. </p><p>Been raiding for a very long time and have been raid MT once - in DT.  Once our Guardian logged on, our RL said something i'll never forget.  "Well, at least we learned tonight to never let a Monk MT again."  No wipes, a few deaths as usual.  But you know what?  People were complaining in tells.  Apparently they didn't like having to pay attention to my HP bar rather than monotonously healing all over again.   They didn't want to hold back their dps.  They wanted to play an easier game and speed things up.  Once the Guardian zoned in, they got their wish.</p><p>End game is where we are broken.  End game is where we cannot compete unless surrounded by Team Noobtard.  On an even playing field we have no chance unless a guild is really nice by letting us in or they just want to brag about how "we have a monk, you have a scout, you must really suck."</p><p>I rolled a Dirge and made him my main knowing i'd still be able to get Monk drops when they fell - and I did.  Now i'm in EoF and guess what.  No Monk set peices for me.  No guilds looking for a monk.  No upgrades.  Thanks SoE.</p>

[Shankonia]

<cite>Aonach wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>You are all either not reading what I am writing or choosing to ignore so you can all whine more. I CAN do all or most of the things in game that you want "sorted" by devs. I was on a pickup raid last night in labs and we all know how crap pick up raids are. I was parsing 1100 dps. The bruiser was parsing 1200 dps. I was off tanking epic adds with no problem whatsover.</p></blockquote><p> I can do 1200 dps in Labs on my Dirge....with two groups.</p><p>The coffee has been brewin' for some time now, some of you people really need to wake up and smell it.</p><p>-----------------</p><p>On another note, we are whining a bit much.  Next time SoE changes anything that has to do w/ the Monk class we really should Market how insanely uber we have changed to become.  Maybe if we do this, we can fool ourselves and everyone else into thinking we really are one of the best classes so we can get into more raids and put into the better dps groups.  </p>

[Aonach]

<cite>Shankonia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aonach wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>You are all either not reading what I am writing or choosing to ignore so you can all whine more. I CAN do all or most of the things in game that you want "sorted" by devs. I was on a pickup raid last night in labs and we all know how crap pick up raids are. I was parsing 1100 dps. The bruiser was parsing 1200 dps. I was off tanking epic adds with no problem whatsover.</p></blockquote><p> I can do 1200 dps in Labs on my Dirge....with two groups.</p><p>The coffee has been brewin' for some time now, some of you people really need to wake up and smell it.</p><p><span style="color: #ff6600">You missed my point again. All I was saying that was without trying and making no effort at all in a pick up raid I managed to pop 1100 dps while tank specced.</span></p><p>-----------------</p><p><b>On another note, we are whining a bit much.</b>  </p><p><span style="color: #ff6600">Oh look you actually noticed! </span> </p></blockquote><p>You know whats really sad about this. Anyone who dares come on to these boards and tries to post any kind of arguement against your "crusade" that monks are terrible are instantly banded a "troll". That cracks me up, its almost a form of bigotry. Just because people refuse to believe the sky is falling on the monk class it doesn't make them a troll.  Some of us just don't believe that monks are as crap as you lot seem to do.</p><p>"He doesn't believe us, he doesn't think the same as we do!". We need to ignore him then, he's jsut a troll. <<<< Nonsense! </p>

[Timaarit]

Aonach wrote:<blockquote>You know whats really sad about this. Anyone who dares come on to these boards and tries to post any kind of arguement against your "crusade" that monks are terrible are instantly banded a "troll". That cracks me up, its almost a form of bigotry. Just because people refuse to believe the sky is falling on the monk class it doesn't make them a troll.  Some of us just don't believe that monks are as crap as you lot seem to do.<p>"He doesn't believe us, he doesn't think the same as we do!". We need to ignore him then, he's jsut a troll. <<<< Nonsense! </p></blockquote>I dont believe monks are as crap as it is written here, I know it for a fact. Your beliefs dont change anything. But you are a troll, despite all your smokescreens, you have failed to provide even a single constructive post. Your posts are no different from a 'we are crap' post that has no notes on why we are crap. You even flat out refuse to compare monks to others so you have no ability to provide them. On the other hand, there has been plenty of facts about monks compared to other classes and so far brawlers are better than others in one thing; and that is getting to a named in a zone. Even killing it will be totally another issue and many classes are better at it. And then the final thing, you are sill totally ignoring the REAL issue and that is endgame. Your 1100dps will not warrant you a spot in raid. Even if you did 2000dps you would not get a DPS spot on a proper raid. I get to raid with my monk because we usually have too few people to leave anyone out regardless of the class but if we lack healers, then I am the first to play one instead of the monk. And this is totally due to both, lack of any kind of utility that a monk could provide and lack of DPS. But then you see this as a whine post because you are blind thanks to your zerker.

[Rotate]

<p>First off i am from a pvp sever. If i have a nice group set up i can hold 1600 + dps. I am talkin on a raid with all qeynos class's. No freeport class debuffs. I would think you pve monks would parse higher with brig debuffs and other stuff freeport class's have to offer. Maybe not, i dunno i will never play on a pve sever to find out.  Monks in pvp are fine as is. Some class's we strugle with alot but we arnt spose to own everyone. As for pve grouping. We can tank in group instance in the game but we have to know what we are doing and have to be geared for it. Yes a plate tank can come up and tank it all in playermade gear. Plate tanks have it easy. We have to work hard at gearing ourselfs and playing our class to be a good tank. Personaly it makes the monk class fun for me to play =p. I tank every group instance in offence stance with only one healer. But at times i do switch to def stance. Like the x4 epic in nizara that i do switch to def stance sometimes or use our middlestance depending on how well my healer is doing. </p><p>  Kos raiding.. Ok. We can tank this! we just have to work harder at it and the healers have to work harder. People dont like to work harder tho so you wont be tanking it haha =p.</p><p>  Eof raiding. We can tank this for short periods of time but not for long. We burn up way to much of the healers power trying to keep us up. I think my monk is great at saving raids if MT goes down i can easly steal agro. tsunami.. when it fades pop my mit buff.. put me around 4800 mit. then with that 30 sec is up pop my rescue then 2k mit buff. In raids i usualy pull agro the min tank goes down. We will never MT. If raid goes as planed i am not needed on the raid =p. But hey my guild likes me i think so i am always welcome! </p><p>As for our dps vrs zerkers dps.  I fine that really good zerkers can hold close to our dps. In ae fights the beat us. But in 10 min fights I usualy spank them becuse they burn alot more power then i do. But maybe its just the zerker in my guild dunno.</p><p>And as for our solo ability. I can solo like everynamed in mistmore catacombs that i have ran into so far. Well not the x2 epic ofcourse =p. I have trioed with a warden and warlock tho.  I solo everyhing in sos. Our solo ability i guess really shines on pvp severs more becuse of the fact we can easly steal named from peeps. By traning and fd'n.  I duo nekcastle 3 with a warden. I dunno if plate tanks can do that /shrug.  One day when i have enough time me and warden planing on trying to duo unrest and see how far we get lol. </p><p>Ok yes we do need some attention raid wise to make guilds want to bring us along. But increase our dps or tanking for raids i dont think is the answer. I would rather see somekinda debuff unique to the brawler class or group buff. That would really be desired on a raid. I dunno what that could be tho /shrug.  But ya maybe our avoidance vrs epics can be tweaked a little or our dps uped a little but that wont make you wanted on raids becuse the dps class are still gunna out dps you, wich they should.</p><p>I just wanna say, I love my monk!!! If they leave them as they are i wont quit or remake or anything like that, i will just keep striving to tweak him more and more. I come from a pvp sever. I like to raid and pvp, i am able to do both atm.  I wish the pvp sever would be more like the pve severs where would could bring brigs on the raids. I would really love to see how they would effect my dps with there mit debuffs. Btw Monks are the coolest class in the game!! bruisers suck imo! haha!</p>

[Timaarit]

Rota, Id' say a brigand wouldn't bring much extra DPS to you. As it is, a templar can permanently reduce any mobs mitigation up to 1400 with AA's. In addition other classes have mitigation debuffs and after all, 50% is the debuff cap. So a brigand would propably bring you 100 to 150 more DPS. And one more class you would lose in DPS parse to. As for the zerker DPS, yes, a monk can win a zerk on a single target. But as soon as there are more than one, a monk will come 2nd. In effect this means that in zonewide parses, which BTW is the one that matters, the zerker will parse higher. So while you see monk as great, well, the drop to ground level will be tough one. Also like you said, you dont get to the raid because your class is wanted, you get in because they dont want to refuse a spot from you.

[Rotate]

<p>Hmm zone wide parses are ones that count? Dunno to me. the parse on the named fight are what really count. The hard encoutners not the trash mobs in the zone otw to the named. And i dont think my guild is hiting that max on mit debuff. Becuse my dps jumps up when they the scouts use there pvp ring on the mobs fragle glass. But recast on that is really long and they announce when they throwing it on the mob.</p><p> My guild brings me along becuse i usualy constantly parse in the top 5. You might say my guild sucks then. But rember, We are qeynos only class's.  When arnt hitting those debuff caps you talk about =p. </p><p>But like i said monks do need something to make them more wanted on raids but it isnt dps or tanking ability that is gunna fix it.. </p>

[Timaarit]

The problem with named fights is that there are too many variables in them. For example casters can just stay put and nuke the adds while melee classes need to reposition themselves constantly. Or then melees need to joust the AE's. Or then there are raidwide stifles that puts the casters to zero dps but allow the melee classes still autoattack. So IMO no, a single fight is not what matters, I just made 4400DPS on a t6 raid encounter in Courts with my monk. I even did 2,5k+ on some of the nameds. So what? My zonewide was still less than 1700 since the abilities that let me do that kind of spike damage are not up in even every other fight.

[Rotate]

While those zone wide parses look nice. Person that toped them could of afk'd instead on the trash in the zone and the trash would of still went down without a problem.  Named fights are they encounters that matter while raiding. Its nice is you can blow up trash fast big woop. Named fights are what count in the end. During tash fights alot of the healers dont shine. But in named fights they do. I am just saying dont go counting on the zone wide parse as in how usefull you were on the raid.

[Timaarit]

The higher the zonewide parse is the faster you will finish the zone. Also zonewide parse tends to correlate very accurately with the parses from the nameds. Especially since the named fights usually last for so long that it is not an issue of spike-DPS. I also believe that as a melee class, you wont parse very high in fights like Chel'Drak, CMF or Mayong. Or how is your DPS in those fights? After all they are quite top bosses so the DPS should matter a lot to you.

[Rotate]

<p>honestly? top 3 sometimes on chel'drak esp if we get alot of warrior spawns. and top 5 on cmf.  havnt killed mayong yet =/.</p><p>But i am not saying our dps vrs caster/scouts on named i am saying our dps vrs other fighters on named brawlers usualy always beat other fighters. Well on raids that i have been on anyway.</p>

[Rotate]

oh ya you have to rember its qeynos class's only on this raids. i dont have to compete against fp class's dps.. And my guild isnt a hard core raiding guild.

[Timaarit]

So now the goalposts moved when you started comparing against other fighters. Do you tank any of the adds in CMF or Chel? If not, well then there is the reason why you can parse higher. And you even admitted that your DPS on Chel depends on luck, meaning with the warriors spawning. How can that be an accurate measurement of true dps capability?

[Rotate]

i have offtanked for both chel and cmf yes becuse only had 1 plate tank on the raid.  Most of time i am in our middle stance or offence depeding how the healers doing and my hps lol.  i swap between them. But as you know we cant stay in our def stance becuse we wouldnt be able to hold agro. We could use a little tweaking but we arnt as bad off as everyone is crying about. On a pve sever why would you bring a pally to the raid? Every class has its flaws. We need something and it isnt dps/tanking cuz that wont make us anymore wanted on raids. would make us really own pvp and solo tho..

[Timaarit]

Why a pally? Do you know any better combination to grab AE aggro fast than a pally and a warlock? Yes, a paladin is way better OT with Chel than a monk. And as you self said, you only tanked because there were no plate tanks. So even you dont consider monks to be even closely as viable tanks as the plate classes. Also I did already make a thread about how to give us more DPS in raids without giving us more in solo mode. That includes solo PvP. So DPS really is an option if they just would give it a second of thought.

[Shankonia]

<cite>rotaterz wrote:</cite><blockquote>While those zone wide parses look nice. Person that toped them could of afk'd instead on the trash in the zone and the trash would of still went down without a problem.  Named fights are they encounters that matter while raiding. Its nice is you can blow up trash fast big woop. Named fights are what count in the end. During tash fights alot of the healers dont shine. But in named fights they do. I am just saying dont go counting on the zone wide parse as in how usefull you were on the raid.</blockquote> If you don't think trash mobs matter, have fun in the Thexian Throne room or whatever that new zone is called.

[Echgar]

This forum is for the constructive discussion of monk issues.  This thread appears to be a complaint about ... complainers and as a result just tends to encourage bickering that is far from constructive.  Time to close this thread.