Are they really serious?

[blazerpuppies79]

<p>these new KOS aa's suck.  Maybe one out of 10 are..."decent".   Brawler double attack completely nerfed?  In exchange for a 6% boost in CA's?  [Removed for Content]?<img src="/smilies/0a4d7238daa496a758252d0a2b1a1384.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Are these devs aware that with no weapons equipped you are NOT dual-wielding?  And howcome the trees make no sense?  Why is a critical hit in the INT line?  Shouldn't it be in the agility tree?  This isn't just for brawlers either.  Every class was nerfed in some way.  The lack of requirements for weapons are cool but damnnnnnn they really need to get double attack under control.  There should be a base chance for double attack depending on your archetype like for instance.....warriors get 45%, Crusaders get 50%, Brawlers get 75%, Predators get 96%, Rogues get 80%, bards get 35% and so on and so forth.  Or why not just get rid of double attack entirely.  It doesn't even make sense.  Attacking twice in the time you normally attack once...........sounds like 100% haste?(not sure on my math there sorry that might be 200%)  Why not just grant a % haste that lets you attack twice in the time it takes to attack once?   Because it would be OVERPOWERING if you had haste like that 75% of the time.  But double attack isn't?  The whole theory behind dbl attk is seriously dumb.  You can't give an overpowering ability to a few classes then take it from the class that is known for having the highest dbl attk rate(if specced a certain way).  Anyway i can keep on but i'll stop for now with what i believe will make a great solution............</p><p>Get rid if double attack completely.  Re-do every KOS achievement line for EVERY class.</p>

[Tid]

I feel your rage, they owned Guardians too.  Fony and there nerf bat, hope you got some lube......

[Groma]

Did any class miss a nerf of some sort?  I mean, i don't feel so bad about it so long as everyone got it.  Its like they just scaled it all back across the board.

[shadowgate]

The problem is that they don't appear to be "nerfing" the mobs. Just makes it tougher for us.

[Grimwell]

Let's be careful with the tone and censored words friends. It is fine to discuss the changes and even to share where you think they may not be good changes. Cursing and beating on the dev team is not welcome.

[Darien al'Staff]

<cite>Grimwell wrote:</cite><blockquote>Let's be careful with the tone and censored words friends. It is fine to discuss the changes and even to share where you think they may not be good changes. Cursing and beating on the dev team is not welcome.</blockquote> I can't necessarily blame him, Grim.  Wizards and Warlocks pull agro enough as it is...as do our rangers.  (granted, our rangers are some of the best equipped world-wide).  Now you're nerfing their decreases and transfers, as well as tank hate-gain?  Not to mention it may very well be that wizards are getting the shaft with this as well (though, we may make out just fine.  I'm not sure how much a loss of 4% is going to effect us).  I would honestly like to have your reasoning here Grimwell.  Why are you tweaking with hate like this?

[kenm]

Warrior AA changes are horrible as well, I'm wondering why people should even bring tanks to raids anymore? Double attack was nerfed so we generate less hate.  Additionally, practically every hate mod or transfer in the game was also nerfed to make it even more difficult to hold aggro. SOE already totally ruined mitigation with EoF, so why not just have scouts tank? Okay granted it's likely not going to pan out to be that severe, but why the heck does SOE feel the need to completely revamp the entire game so we have to relearn our classes every ~6 months?  It's getting stupidly old now, can't we just go one expansion where the general mechanics stay the same and we get more AAs, more levels, more raid zones to conquer in order to get stronger, instead of just getting nerfed so we have to level back up to the exact same spot we were before? Everybody uses cookie-cutter AA setups as it is, even with these changes people will do the same regardless.  Why not just completely remove AA caps, let people get everything, balance classes on the assumption everybody has everything, and make newer raid encounters incredibly difficult so they actually require people to have every AA ability in their arsenal? /sigh

[Bre]

<p>Well, I agree with Kenman on this one. Never thought I would say that by the way.</p><p>I came into this GU really expecting good things, but ended the night feeling like I got kicked in the teeth. And many of my guildmates felt the same. I spent the night studying the changes and really do feel like we got treated rather badly overall. My main is a ranger so I can only speak for them, but a deaggro nerf, no useful aa changes other than wpn req's being dropped, and large hit % lost was pretty severe. I am holding out hope that some of the changes will not go live though. </p><p>On the good side thanks for the new recipes and new raidzone. Not sure how I feel about the DW to 1 hander changes other than I pity the person who had to code all that. </p><p>Still trying to maintain a positive attitude, but being treated like a yoyo is accomplishing very little towards that end. </p><p>Brega - 70 Ranger, Test Server</p>

[Kaleyen]

Belated April Fools joke maybe?

[TheBu]

<cite>Grimwell wrote:</cite><blockquote>Let's be careful with the tone and censored words friends. It is fine to discuss the changes and even to share where you think they may not be good changes. Cursing and beating on the dev team is not welcome.</blockquote><p>But the bat my wizy wants to use is a bat made by nerf so it should not hurt.. . besides the bat does 4% less damage now as they have brainstorm.</p><p>I feel nothing we say will make a diffrence. You ether turn us in into pink SKs or into a banana pallys. Or Purhaps a wizzy that has a metal spike on thier head with a vest. ARg My wizzy looks like a gnome dart.</p><p>Please understand the frustration with changes that are done. that we are your wimb. This game changes the rules of play during the middle of a turn. When all you need to do is change it on the next round. </p>

[lilmohi]

<cite>blazerpuppies79 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>these new KOS aa's suck.  Maybe one out of 10 are..."decent".   Brawler double attack completely nerfed?  In exchange for a 6% boost in CA's?  [I cannot control my vocabulary]?<img src="/smilies/0a4d7238daa496a758252d0a2b1a1384.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Are these devs aware that with no weapons equipped you are NOT dual-wielding?  </p></blockquote> The way i understand it the STR line will no longer be a barefisted attack line.  So the double attack bonuses would be completely overpowered if you had a weapon equiped.  Personally i liked the idea of bare fisted monks, but with the incoming "epic weapons" either the weapons or the aa line would be worthless, so a revamp is fine.

[Geothe]

<p>Yeah. A lot of the changes in this upcoming LU are moronic.</p><p>Brigands are going to be freaking pulling agro just autoattacking now since they have beyond gutted our deagro ability. Its pathetic.</p>

[Janto]

While I understand that with the addition of Epic Weapons the removal of restrictions was needed....completely removing a brawlers ability to double attack is just wrong. I think that this change should be reverted and instead just lower the % of double attack to 8~10 % to compensate for weapons being equipped. The removal of this skill for a small boost to combart art damage, plus now all us unarmed brawlers leveling have to go buy weapons as well is a major slap to the face...I was enjoying my brawler a lot until this change went in.

[Nainitsuj]

<cite>Gromann wrote:</cite><blockquote>Did any class miss a nerf of some sort?  I mean, i don't feel so bad about it so long as everyone got it.  Its like they just scaled it all back across the board. </blockquote> Bards, so far, have made out like bandits.

[Darien al'Staff]

<cite>Nainitsuj wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gromann wrote:</cite><blockquote>Did any class miss a nerf of some sort?  I mean, i don't feel so bad about it so long as everyone got it.  Its like they just scaled it all back across the board. </blockquote> Bards, so far, have made out like bandits.</blockquote>Except that their hate-decrease has been nerfed :/

[Tharangus]

<cite>Janto wrote:</cite><blockquote>While I understand that with the addition of Epic Weapons the removal of restrictions was needed....completely removing a brawlers ability to double attack is just wrong. I think that this change should be reverted and instead just lower the % of double attack to 8~10 % to compensate for weapons being equipped. The removal of this skill for a small boost to combart art damage, plus now all us unarmed brawlers leveling have to go buy weapons as well is a major slap to the face...I was enjoying my brawler a lot until this change went in.</blockquote><p> This kinda upsets me too because the way I saw it... the STR made unarmed VIABLE as an alternative to weapons.  It made it a style choice that you could actually be effective with.  That will not be the case anymore with this change.</p><p>Realistically, though, if you look at the way damage on weapons scale between tiers it follows a sloping curve up.  When you look at the damage done by unarmed it follows a linear progression.  Eventually this means that weapons outperform unarmed.  That's just a reality that existed before this change was announced.</p>

[Nainitsuj]

Beeglin@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote><cite>Grimwell wrote:</cite><blockquote>Let's be careful with the tone and censored words friends. It is fine to discuss the changes and even to share where you think they may not be good changes. Cursing and beating on the dev team is not welcome.</blockquote> I can't necessarily blame him, Grim.  Wizards and Warlocks pull agro enough as it is...as do our rangers.  (granted, our rangers are some of the best equipped world-wide).  Now you're nerfing their decreases and transfers, as well as tank hate-gain?  Not to mention it may very well be that wizards are getting the shaft with this as well (though, we may make out just fine.  I'm not sure how much a loss of 4% is going to effect us).  I would honestly like to have your reasoning here Grimwell.  Why are you tweaking with hate like this? </blockquote><p> Wisdom 2 - Harmonizing Shot: Renamed to Messenger's Letter: It now increases hate towards the enemy's current target.</p><p>That could be part of the reason.  Four bards in a raid using this as often as we use our other attacks, it's like the MT has 4 more taunts.</p>

[Nainitsuj]

Beeglin@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote><cite>Nainitsuj wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gromann wrote:</cite><blockquote>Did any class miss a nerf of some sort?  I mean, i don't feel so bad about it so long as everyone got it.  Its like they just scaled it all back across the board. </blockquote> Bards, so far, have made out like bandits.</blockquote>Except that their hate-decrease has been nerfed :/ </blockquote> Alin's still has the same numbers on test as it does live.

[Rast]

<p>Jury's still out on Pally's...</p><p>Granted, we are impacted so much by what others do...  Amends will become less of an advantage if the guards can't keep agro off of us, which it is sounding more like it is possible.  We had some boosts and I didn't see many "major" nerfs in our lists, but from what I'm reading, more of our nerfs will be coming from outside our class than from within (amends, sigil, our agro control abilities).  While it will make us much stronger group tanks (since we'll have more hate to siphon), it will negatively impact our abilities on raids since we'll be pulling more hate than before.  And while that might be good to keep the squishy alive, if it is pulling agro off of the MT, its not good for the raid.</p>

[Themaginator]

All 4 classes i play are fine, Summoner, Brawler, Predator and Druid

[Novusod]

<cite>Nainitsuj wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gromann wrote:</cite><blockquote>Did any class miss a nerf of some sort?  I mean, i don't feel so bad about it so long as everyone got it.  Its like they just scaled it all back across the board. </blockquote> Bards, so far, have made out like bandits.</blockquote>Bards might be the new flavor of month. Bard power drains will be thee only way to take out healers after the update.

[Maryk]

<p>I know I'm hungry dagnabit...sorry for the expletive...but I'm feeling emotional...no love for the Templars in the upgrade. </p>

[kenm]

Sashtan@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote><cite>simpwrx02 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sashtan@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote>drama queens </blockquote><p> Says on of the few classes who did got missed with the nerf bat this time around.  </p><p>I too can make totally worthless posts</p></blockquote> like all this constant complaining all over the boards is anymore useful? dont you guys have any thing better to complain about? like world hunger or war or government? I know "you guys" love complaining about things like that. </blockquote>Why would we complain about world hunger on the official EQ2 forums?  Seems a tad off topic, don't you think? Now on the other hand, showing our dislike to terrible changes that will do nothing to help the enjoyment of the game, but instead actually diminish it in most cases, seems to make sense.

[Dasein]

If your entire raid's agro control hinges on a few percentage points of hate transfer from one or two classes, then there's already a problem. Most of these are minor tweaks to transfer/reduction percentages, not total revamps of the entire system. At worst, certain classes might need to watch their DPS a bit more closely, or a raid/group will need more discipline in controlling big attacks to make sure the tank has enough agro build up. However, with all the changes to hate transfers and such, the game really needs some sort of agro monitor built in so we can see exactly how hate/agro works, because right now, players are really fumbling around in the dark on the whole subject, yet it is also one of, if not the core aspect of game strategy.

[Themaginator]

Kenman@Najena wrote: <blockquote>Sashtan@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote><cite>simpwrx02 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sashtan@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote>drama queens </blockquote><p> Says on of the few classes who did got missed with the nerf bat this time around.  </p><p>I too can make totally worthless posts</p></blockquote> like all this constant complaining all over the boards is anymore useful? dont you guys have any thing better to complain about? like world hunger or war or government? I know "you guys" love complaining about things like that. </blockquote>Why would we complain about world hunger on the official EQ2 forums?  Seems a tad off topic, don't you think? Now on the other hand, showing our dislike to terrible changes that will do nothing to help the enjoyment of the game, but instead actually diminish it in most cases, seems to make sense. </blockquote>yeah, but like these nerfs arent big, the very few nerfs there are are used to balance another buff out thats how it works.  Of course ive always thought that complaining on forums is an exercise in futility,just because YOU dont like a change the whole world has to hear about it, even when theres a good thing you people whine, theres no pleasing you so whats the point, you dont need to act like its the end of the world, ZOMG ZOMG the sky is falling they reduced the effectiveness on something by .5% OH NOES...but wait...they decreased the recast by alot...durrr ill just ignore that, and think of it as making my class useless with a nerf not balancing things out nah...will the world ever learn?  Why cant posters be like most of the other sane players and see something like this and go..."well darn that sucks...oh well" and just go on your way, thats how all my RL friends are to, its just a change to a video game its not world shattering get over it.

[Kaleyen]

I'm still waiting for someone to jump out from behind a tree dressed in a clown custom yelling "Just kidding!"

[Snorm]

<p>Indeed. It's just a game, and we can all quit playing any time we want. Well, at least that's what I tell myself....</p><p>From Lockeye's post on the new AA's (Empahsis mine):</p><p><span style="color: #0066ff">The test release notes will contain a list of all the changes made to class achievements. <b>Feedback is welcome</b></span></p><p>You can't say they didn't ask for it, and if they didn't see any value to customer feedback, they wouldn't pay to run these boards.</p><p>Snorm -- 70 Guard</p>

[blazerpuppies79]

<cite>Grimwell wrote:</cite><blockquote>Let's be careful with the tone and censored words friends. It is fine to discuss the changes and even to share where you think they may not be good changes. Cursing and beating on the dev team is not welcome.</blockquote><p> Well i apologize if i offended anyone personally.  The very sad part about this is that this dev team is the team that brought an awsome combat system to the game.  </p><p> So forgive me if I had tons of faith in the dev team.  Forgive me if I had high hopes when i heard that the dev team was going to do away with weapon requirements, so i could roleplay a brigand that actually dual wields instead of being a pirate of the carribean with an empty offhand.  And for the most part that's exactly what happend.  (Except brawlers :evil<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>But why the other changes?  I was reading the patch notes all excited and stuff until I scrolled to the brawler one.  It looked so dull.  6% CA damage??????? I immediatley said to myself, "No way they cannot be serious!"  and i just shook my head.  </p><p>Then i scrolled around and checked out some of the other classes..........specifically Shaman because i always feels pity for the poor archetype with the egg for a pet.  Yes an egg lol that thing is pretty fragile.  (by the way i have no problem with the pet being fragile)  1 aa point to summon the fragile thing.  4 into strength.  and so on and so forth.......what do ya get?  A fragile egg that pulls MORE aggro because of the ward.  And we all know that when pup-pup gets aggro.........he gets mutilated in 2 or 3 hits.  It almost seems like the dev team wants dog-dog to be a buff machine.  But then again nah it was really annoying to rebuff him.  But anywayssssss once i again I have a possible SOLUTION..........make pup-pup a swarm pet.  That's all.  60 sec recast.  Send a number of spirit wolves with the same amount of HP that the current pet has but let them do some damage for 20 seconds or so.  Just my humble opinion on a solution.</p><p> I have  a million more solutions......man you guys should hire me<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Kizee]

<p>I love how they nerfed the already low dps of a templar by reducing the crit hits.</p><p>We were so overpowered with melee crits at 100%. <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Kaiser Sigma]

Sashtan@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote>All 4 classes i play are fine, Summoner, Brawler, Predator and Druid </blockquote> Actually predators are affected by the lesser hate generation plus the fact that now summoned bow arrows suck~.

[Ravaan]

<cite>Kizee wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I love how they nerfed the already low dps of a templar by reducing the crit hits.</p><p>We were so overpowered with melee crits at 100%. <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote><p> im sure all the scouts/mages were just getting blown out of the water on tha parse by those clerics out there that took the 100% melee crit.</p><p> *rollseyes*</p>

[blazerpuppies79]

<cite>Ravaan wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kizee wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I love how they nerfed the already low dps of a templar by reducing the crit hits.</p><p>We were so overpowered with melee crits at 100%. <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote><p> im sure all the scouts/mages were just getting blown out of the water on tha parse by those clerics out there that took the 100% melee crit.</p><p> *rollseyes*</p></blockquote>HEALER DPS is too high!!!!!!!!! lololololol)  sigh..............i wonder if they are secretly working on Vanguard and this patch is just something they pulled out of their tails.  It seems like this patch was not very well thought out

[Bloodfa]

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nainitsuj wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gromann wrote:</cite><blockquote>Did any class miss a nerf of some sort?  I mean, i don't feel so bad about it so long as everyone got it.  Its like they just scaled it all back across the board. </blockquote> Bards, so far, have made out like bandits.</blockquote>Bards might be the new flavor of month. Bard power drains will be thee only way to take out healers after the update. </blockquote><i>Any</i> poison using class has access to a power-draining poison, so I'd expect to see the value of those go up.  The downside is that it's going to take a long, long time to burn them down to nil power.  On the upside, my Warden is moving up in the food chain. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[kenm]

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote>If your entire raid's agro control hinges on a few percentage points of hate transfer from one or two classes, then there's already a problem. Most of these are minor tweaks to transfer/reduction percentages, not total revamps of the entire system. At worst, certain classes might need to watch their DPS a bit more closely, or a raid/group will need more discipline in controlling big attacks to make sure the tank has enough agro build up. However, with all the changes to hate transfers and such, the game really needs some sort of agro monitor built in so we can see exactly how hate/agro works, because right now, players are really fumbling around in the dark on the whole subject, yet it is also one of, if not the core aspect of game strategy. </blockquote>Are you kidding me?  These changes are huge when done all at once. Let's assume you have a MT group with a Swash, Dirge, and Coercer.  Swash transfer went from 27% to 18%, Dirge hate buff went from 41% to 36%, Coercer hate buff went from 49% to 17% and a 17% hate transfer.  Not to mention hate transfers don't stack, so if you have a Coercer there's no reason to have a Swash now.  Umm, ouch.  Now let me use Rangers as an example.  Rangers were already capable of pulling aggro like crazy, that's just going to be nuts with the tank gaining so much less aggro.  Oh what's what?  Not only were those nerfed, but Ranger dehate went from 41% down to 27%?  Nice, now the rangers going to be tanking raids!  Or maybe brigands, they got nerfed too... And a built in aggro monitor?  Now that would be dumbing down the game to the point of stupidity.

[Sykophrog]

<p>Actually with my Battle Cleric (Inquisitor-tree line) spec I was sometimes able to outdps some of the DPS types.  A 20% loss to crit melee is gunna suck a bit (I'll get over it though) especially since I turned all my combat spells into combat arts, got really used to doing crits on each swing and CA.</p><p>I went Agi / Sta on my cleric tree (to reinforce the battle-cleric line) mostly because I didnt see the point to paying all those points into the INT line for just the mastery (crit spell % and spell casting bonus dont play hardly a role when you do battle-cleric as you dont do spell damage and if you're like me and use Fanaticism 90% of the time in groups/raids you're not healing either so that minor spell casting bonus never did squat) So while the INT mastery is great IMO I couldnt justify spending all those points for ONE advantage.</p><p> Losing the 40% dps bonus from 8 points in that Agi line buff was more then compensated IMO with 32% (again same 8 pts) double-attack and +32% blocking with shield (boy will that ever help solo) although i'm assuming its not a straight +32% but rather +32% of whatever your current block rate is.</p><p> Anyhows, while I dont LOVE all the changes they arent that horrible either.</p><p>Message of the day: MMO's adapt and change and evolve. Deal with it or go back to PnP D&D.... oh wait... D&D 3.5 anyone hehehehe</p>

[Agaxiq]

I'd say they are prepping for T8 and you'll see upgrades to some of these nerfed abilities in the 71-80 range.  I don't play a predator, but I would assume if that level 53 master (which didnt get an upgrade at 67) is one of the more expensive spells in the game (and certainly will be even more expensive now) guessing it will get an upgrade in T8 to be at least closer to what you have now. Still, if they nerf everyone, its not a nerf <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> But seriously, rogues/predators - yeah, you steal agro once in a while, but your hate management abilities far outshine a sorcerers, even nerfed like this.  Now you'll have to think twice about using double-up with dispatch on pull.  At least your hate xfer/decrease increases through the tiers - warlocks 4% is given in T2 and is the same in T7.  Thats, right, 4% hate xfer, and that was a fairly recent addition.  Heck, we didn't have ANY de-agro abilities until fairly recently other than nullmail which used to be on like a 5 minute timer (and now nullmail doesn't decrease hate).   Now we both have 2 de-hate abilities on similar timers but our hate xfer is still 4%. agressiv  

[Mabes]

I'll get over most of it, will have to adapt, but concerning the DT bow summoned ammo overnerf, I am OUTRAGED!!!

[Kaleyen]

Think of it this way, for the majority of raiders (not talking about the guys that can clear EoF content with ease) but those of us who have cleared KoS, and is working on EoF.  Those warlocks with the 4% were competing with us Rangers for topping the parse, so now take away the Ranger's Arrows and what do you have?  Rangers nowhere near where they should be. I was hoping we wouldn't suck again til RoK came out.

[Agaxiq]

Kuian@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote>Think of it this way, for the majority of raiders (not talking about the guys that can clear EoF content with ease) but those of us who have cleared KoS, and is working on EoF.  Those warlocks with the 4% were competing with us Rangers for topping the parse, so now take away the Ranger's Arrows and what do you have?  Rangers nowhere near where they should be. I was hoping we wouldn't suck again til RoK came out. </blockquote> Warlocks were just <strike>nerfed</strike> fixed right before this as well by adding hate to Rift (not to mention a 4% reduction in DPS by the nerfing of the popular WIS line) so I dont think warlocks will be outparsing you on anything but DT trash worms anytime soon. agressiv

[Themaginator]

eh rangers arent meant to be good any way, it breaks the MMO rules lol

[MisterE]

<p>"quote"</p><p>Let's be careful with the tone and censored words friends. It is fine to discuss the changes and even to share where you think they may not be good changes. Cursing and beating on the dev team is not welcome. </p><p>"endquote" </p><p>When a person is expressing anger against something and another person reads it, one would hope that the angry tone would come through on that post. Granted some people utilize a more fragrant language then others to express their displeasure at a percieved wrong Grim.  But these changes are to put it nicely a simple cop out... There is a nice change with the weapon requirements That im sure will make things across the board more desirable and add more flavor and variety to weapon choices. (golf clap) that was a simple change and it has been a long time in coming imo.  </p><p> It would appear that some of these other changes have incited a very serious negative reaction amongst many insomuch as positive comments are more the exception then the norm at this current time.  What i think would be a very smart move from the developers "PR" standpoint is to include their thoughts for the future and how these changes will mesh with the upcoming and much anticipated new content and levels.</p><p>Instead what we have here is something more akin to a guild leader telling their guild members that this is how it is gonna be and if u dont like it well tough. (we all know what happens in time with that kind of dictatorship)  I see zero explanations from the folks that came up with these reductions in popular AA lines to make less popular lines seem viable.. (that is double speak imo for oops we made em to strong we gotta bring em back a touch)</p><p>I would like to issue a challenge to the developers to give the masses some insight as to why they felt these changes were needed??  Because all i have right now is what i see and what i read from folks that are not developers.  When speculation is allowed to run unchecked by the powers that be (and im sorry grim but to say play nice with folks that dont explain themselves just does not cut it, believe it or not sony works for the people that pay the bill every month not the other way around) and we can see that it is doing so..  All that you will get is anarchy, a better control method would be to allow the devs to give simple explanations justifying the changes. Heck i would respect a change way more if a dev. said "well when we implimented this AA line we did not think that it would have this much of an effect on the balancing of the classes, in short we goofed now this change will fix that"  then this political double speak of to increase the desirability of this line we have lowered the effectiveness of the other lines blah blah blah..</p><p>Im sorry but i am aggrivated.   When i am aggrivated i am not going to yell and point fingers at the people who are not responsible...   Im gonna direct my questions and vent my frustration at the developers themselves, they are game developers it is their job to make games, and changes to the games,  if they can't take it when folks are angry about a change that they made. Then they should defend themselves not sit in a cubicle and cry  silently about not being loved by the masses...  I would rather them be upfront with me, and speak the truth  then doublespeak or as it seems now just silent,  almost feel like we are dealing with the current adminstration that we elected.  "if we keep really really quiet and make these changes the players will just forget about the change and go on playing"  BAH its like LU 13 all over again.</p><p>So tell us why the changes, give us something that we can sink our teeth into even if it is an admittance of miscalculation.  i can respect that and thank you for admitting a mistake and applaude the changes needed to rectfy the error.</p><p>There is much that is good about this game,  but the silent treatement on nerfs has been and it will always be what has held this game back, compared to the competition's almost garish honesty about mistakes.</p>

[Steelbreath]

Ok, I'll say it then: "Drama Queens" I am affected by these changes, oh well. The one thing I expect in all online games is that the experience I have will change. Sometimes for the better, sometimes not. There are aspects of the change I don't like, but I will adapt and change tactics as needed. I don't think the change to aggro management is a bad thing, and will add more challenge to raiding. In the end you can complain endlessly about how unfair this is and maybe even hold your breath until they get rid of the changes, you can also provide well thought out and relevant feedback, and finally you can vote with your wallet and just quit playing. Personally only when people take the first option that I get annoyed enough to respond to these threads.

[Jaroth Cloudwalk]

<p>I think the biggest problem that most people have is there is no explanation of why they felt the need to make these changes.  These huge changes always come right before an expansion or additional content.... and amazingly look here a new spell or item that gives us back the ability they just took away.</p><p>I can understand if they had to make a change to bring a class into line with what they envision them to be able to do, but we deserve an explanation as to why they feel that class should be at that level and what they envision the change will do.  The problem SoE has is that they don't use a nerf bat they use a nerf bulldozer.  Oh look someone is 10% more powerful than they should be... woot lets take away 50% of their damage to balance them.  I think many people are tired of having to relearn their class every 6 month.   </p>

[Armawk]

Calling developers names is not, however, going to get anyone anywhere, except a bus out of here.

[Sadaen]

<cite>Grimwell wrote:</cite><blockquote>Let's be careful with the tone and censored words friends. It is fine to discuss the changes and even to share where you think they may not be good changes. Cursing and beating on the dev team is not welcome.</blockquote><p> With all due respect...You all kinda set yourself up for it. The teaser post made the other day about revamps etc. got people excited about the GOOD that would be right around the corner. (If I may say so myself that teaser post was one of the worst idea's ever by the way) The last anyone heard about the AA change was taking weapon restrcitions out "thats it" then the teaser post eluded to maybe something more and now the patch notes show a big nerf.</p><p>So yes people are going to be upset and there tone might not be what you all appreciate but you are working in a customer service industry and well sometimes yah have to put up with upset customers. And if the boards, fan sites etc. are any indication you have a lot of upset customers.</p>

[Grimwell]

I'm fine with people stating why they may not like what just got sent to test. That's a part of the deal when you have a community - you get their feedback. That said, I'm not going to tolerate people using cuss words here (because I don't tolerate it anywhere in these forums when I find it), and I'm not going to tolerate name calling. It is very easy to say "I think that the changes to the AA line for my class could be better if... or are wrong because..." without saying "Grimwell is an idiot!" That is the line I'm trying to draw. Talk about the AA changes and give as much feedback about those changes as you can. Just don't make personal attacks or slip into bad language please.

[Cocytus]

<p>Since Grimwell requested to use clean language, I'll not swear.</p><p>This updage is garbage.</p><p>There I did it <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Gasheron]

Jaroth Cloudwalker wrote: <blockquote><p>I think the biggest problem that most people have is there is no explanation of why they felt the need to make these changes.  These huge changes always come right before an expansion or additional content.... and amazingly look here a new spell or item that gives us back the ability they just took away.</p><p>I can understand if they had to make a change to bring a class into line with what they envision them to be able to do, but we deserve an explanation as to why they feel that class should be at that level and what they envision the change will do.  The problem SoE has is that they don't use a nerf bat they use a nerf bulldozer.  Oh look someone is 10% more powerful than they should be... woot lets take away 50% of their damage to balance them.  I think many people are tired of having to relearn their class every 6 month.   </p></blockquote><p> For instance, the brawler str line. Originally, we had a 96% chance of double attack if we simply didnt use any weapons. Being barehanded is an un-upgradeable option for attack, and isn't classified as DW (which doesn't make any sense by itself), but provided a steady amount of DPS that was above average for a brawler, just never able to become anything better than above average. With these changes, I was hoping for the barefisted component to be removed, giving us a way to use Double Attack, something that just makes logical sense for a brawler to have, with any weapon they chose. Of course, 96% is JUST a little high, so I was expecting it to be reduced to somewhere between 20-40%, so as to not imbalance the game. Nothing too illogical, and nothing to brag about, but definitely a boost for us.</p><p>What do we get tho? We get ALL of our double attack removed entirely, thus disabling us from getting any double attack except from equipment (which maxxes out at like 4%) and other classes' buffs (which is also very low and available to everyone), and in its place we get a 6% increase to our CA dmg. 6% barely amounts to any real increase, giving us MAYBE another 50 dmg per CA. Also, for a Monk (as I don't know bruisers nearly as well as my monk), most of our DPS is from autoattack, not CA, so the increase counts for even less. Basically, they took a useable ability and made it laughable.</p><p>Also, our 4th ability in the str line, which used to give us a boost to riposte, something that also makes logical sense for a brawler to have innately, being that we are the "avoid and retaliate" types, was completely erased and replaced with a bonus to mitigation. Now, since avoidance seems to have its problems, and mitigation/hp is currently the most viable option for a brawler to tank, this could have made us somewhat comparable to plate tanks, who can reach our levels of avoidance quite easily but we can't get near their levels of mitigation. However, we only get a grand total of 280 mit from the AA, which is obviously way too little to change anything.</p><p>I'm sorry, but the changes made to the brawler lines are just a joke. With the exception of the decrease in the timer for Crane Flock, there isn't a single worthwhile thing in there. It's a joke, and an insult, and I would love to hear the dev's reasoning for the changes that are being made. I hope that these things aren't the final version implemented in the game.</p>

[Janto]

Very well put... I too feel that brawlers should retain some form of double attack in the str line. I understand it needs a reduction from 96% if using a weapon but a brawler should be able to double attack as well as riposte. Also the riposte was nice cause it worked with the stoneskin EoF aa for bruisers but I guess thats going away now as well. I too hope that these are not the final lines for brawlers.

[Zarafein]

I would like the brawler strenght line changes(more mitigation and more ca damage)both fit good to a  bruiser imo.. but the numbers need to be way higher.

[Couching]

Moreover, brawlers still have less critical hit than war. Why? Brawler has only 18% critical hit comparing to war tree 22%. It really makes me sick. You make this game broken as hell that plate tank can tank better with better damages and better aggro control. All plate tanks have passive taunt, 2 encounter taunts and different form of aoe rescue or heavy damages of aoe attack to hold aggro. What brawler has? We have ZERO passive taunt, 1 encounter and ZERO aoe rescue. Now, you even give all plate tanks 40% frontal aoe comparing to brawler 16% aoe with less damages. Show me that how brawler could hold adds in raids comparing to all plate tanks. Or brawler doesn't deserve to hold mobs in raid? Aren't we tank anymore?

[Gasheron]

Lhangion@Innovation wrote: <blockquote>I would like the brawler strenght line changes(more mitigation and more ca damage)both fit good to a  bruiser imo.. but the numbers need to be way higher.</blockquote><p> I have to agree here, the +mit (maybe) and the +CA dmg fit a bruiser decently. However, the str line is a brawler AA, not a Bruiser AA, and as such needs to consider Monks as well. And these abilities don't fit in line with the idea of a Monk. If they were to keep these, they should both up the numbers by a good amount, and change the AGI line to be of more value to Monk, as AGI is something that greatly fits the idea of a monk.</p><p>BTW these changes didn't do a thing to the basic recommended brawler AA setup, it's still Sta 4-4-8 Int 4-4-8 Wis 4-4-8.</p>

[Kainsei]

<cite>Gasheron wrote:</cite><blockquote>Lhangion@Innovation wrote: <blockquote>I would like the brawler strenght line changes(more mitigation and more ca damage)both fit good to a  bruiser imo.. but the numbers need to be way higher.</blockquote><p> I have to agree here, the +mit (maybe) and the +CA dmg fit a bruiser decently. However, the str line is a brawler AA, not a Bruiser AA, and as such needs to consider Monks as well. And these abilities don't fit in line with the idea of a Monk. If they were to keep these, they should both up the numbers by a good amount, and change the AGI line to be of more value to Monk, as AGI is something that greatly fits the idea of a monk.</p><p>BTW these changes didn't do a thing to the basic recommended brawler AA setup, it's still Sta 4-4-8 Int 4-4-8 Wis 4-4-8.</p></blockquote>People who weren't 4/4/8 sta wis int were going 4/4/8/6/2 int wis. And they won't switch to agi or str, maybe a few bruisers will try 4/4/8 agi / str, since their CA are better than ours (though I doubt it'll change much) . Most monks are extremely disappointed in these changes. And I'm sure bruisers are disappointed as well (nerfing stone deaf two expansions later ftl :/ ).

[einar4]

<cite>Grimwell wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm fine with people stating why they may not like what just got sent to test. That's a part of the deal when you have a community - you get their feedback. That said, I'm not going to tolerate people using cuss words here (because I don't tolerate it anywhere in these forums when I find it), and I'm not going to tolerate name calling. It is very easy to say "I think that the changes to the AA line for my class could be better if... or are wrong because..." without saying "Grimwell is an idiot!" That is the line I'm trying to draw. Talk about the AA changes and give as much feedback about those changes as you can. Just don't make personal attacks or slip into bad language please.</blockquote><p> It is not particularly constructive however, when the only feedback from a representative over suggested changes is to lambaste forum posters for the tone of the posts.  IMO it seems like the real issues are being evaded.  Either address the complaints or ignore them, but rationalizing a reason to ignore the issues that people are raising is pretty disingenuous. </p><p> It may be that bad words will "bend your spine, twist your mind, and lose the war for the allies," I see plenty of posts that don't contain such language.  A cool idea might to address those posts rather than only focusing on the 1% of the posts that have a "dirty word" in them. </p>

[Xaxtionlorex]

As an sk, I'm happy to see to see what changes, I'm gaining 2 new skills, a possibility of less resiliences, my class just wen't up, not down,and after awhile of seeing some...depressing things coming to crsuaders [need i talk about our avoidance?] its good to see the other classes getting a bit of the nerf bat.

[Zarafein]

<cite>Gasheron wrote:</cite><blockquote>Lhangion@Innovation wrote: <blockquote>I would like the brawler strenght line changes(more mitigation and more ca damage)both fit good to a  bruiser imo.. but the numbers need to be way higher.</blockquote><p> I have to agree here, the +mit (maybe) and the +CA dmg fit a bruiser decently. However, the str line is a brawler AA, not a Bruiser AA, and as such needs to consider Monks as well. And these abilities don't fit in line with the idea of a Monk. If they were to keep these, they should both up the numbers by a good amount, and change the AGI line to be of more value to Monk, as AGI is something that greatly fits the idea of a monk.</p><p>BTW these changes didn't do a thing to the basic recommended brawler AA setup, it's still Sta 4-4-8 Int 4-4-8 Wis 4-4-8.</p></blockquote>hm imo the whole brawler tree "style" fittet better to monks so far.. chi,avoidance,altruism,mantis leap, little shurikens,pressure points, only staff required for wisdom line(staff or hammer would have fitted(?) to both) and the titles.. okay mabye also for evil martial artists but nothing for the rough orge/barbarian/troll dreadnought bruiser. One of the reasons i don't play my bruiser so much anymore.

[Gasheron]

<cite>Xaxtionlorex wrote:</cite><blockquote>As an sk, I'm happy to see to see what changes, I'm gaining 2 new skills, a possibility of less resiliences, my class just wen't up, not down,and after awhile of seeing some...depressing things coming to crsuaders [need i talk about our avoidance?] its good to see the other classes getting a bit of the nerf bat. </blockquote><p> *yawn*</p><p>I play on the same server as you Xax... I play Xasshasis, an Iksar Monk who has been mistaken for u on several occasions due to the "similarity of our names". Don't ask me how they get us confused by our names... doesn't make sense to me.</p><p>I've said it on the server and I'll say it again, I'm tired of hearing people complaining about how bad SKs are. This is not saying that they didn't need work, and I'm happy that your class got the boost it needed, but I just think that the problems that SKs had/have are nonsense compared to some of the problems of the other classes.</p><p>As I play a Monk, I'll again be using it as my example. SKs might have been rated low, but whatever you were rated at, us monks, and bruisers too for that matter, your fellow fighters, were rated lower. You can tank better than we ever could simply from being able to wear plate armor, and your class can reliable outdps us brawlers.</p><p>I don't want to start an argument, even though I realize this reads as such. I just dislike your comment "it's good to see the other classes getting a bit of the nerf bat" when there are many classes that didn't deserve the nerfing that they get from these changes.</p><p>And to Lhang, yes, the trees did cater to monk more based off the ideas of the abilities. However, the abilities just aren't worth that much in the first place. Basically, both brawler classes should get some real, valuable time being evaluated by the devs.</p>

[Powers]

OK, I'm a bit baffled. AAs are just, like, little extras on top of the normal class progressions, right?  A way to make one level 70 Berserker (say) different from every other level 70 Berserker (or at least so that they aren't all the same), right?  So what difference does it make if they rebalance some of them?  I find it hard to believe any change could destroy anyone's ability to play the game.  I find it too easy as it is. What am I missing here? Powers  &8^]

[Gasheron]

<cite>Powers wrote:</cite><blockquote>OK, I'm a bit baffled. AAs are just, like, little extras on top of the normal class progressions, right?  A way to make one level 70 Berserker (say) different from every other level 70 Berserker (or at least so that they aren't all the same), right?  So what difference does it make if they rebalance some of them?  I find it hard to believe any change could destroy anyone's ability to play the game.  I find it too easy as it is. What am I missing here? Powers  &8^] </blockquote><p> How many AA's do you have on your character right now? 20? 50? 100? If it's anywhere above 40 or so, get a group and do whatever yer class does, then buy a respec and try doing it again.</p><p>There is a difference.</p><p>Yes, AA's are extras. However, these extras can be QUITE beneficial and literally change the way you play the game with a character. For instance, if u take a 70 berserker and give it AA's that increase crit chance and double attack, you'll find yer berserker is MUCH more oriented towards doing DPS than yer standard 'zerker.</p><p>Heck, just look at the stat increases... the primary stat of your class gains 32 points in yer AA tree... that equiv of the bonus ud get for the same stat from a Fabled piece of t7 equip. Your other stats can gain anywhere from 40-64 points, which can provide quite a decent benefit by itself.</p><p>AAs are important, just as mastered abilities and fabled equip are important. You don't need them to function, but it sure helps.</p>

[Powers]

I have several characters, I think I'm at 35 AA on the highest of them.  And I don't have KOS, so it's all in EOF trees. I can understand that these changes will have some effect, but surely not as much an effect as changing to a different line entirely would have, right? Powers  &8^]

[Icecreamman]

Has none figured this out yet ? They nerf all classes before the release a new expansion.  Think back to KoS, then EoF, and now RoK.  They nerf the classes and call it balance so when the expansion is released they will put up new AA's for everyone to get back to the same point they were before. I am sure most of you can remember the nerf bat before EoF came out, the forums were filled with the same things, the people where so upset, the dev's never said why for weeks, then beta came out and people saw you had to buy the AA's to get back to the same status.  Everyone was mad and posted on it and finally  the dev's posted on it saying it was balancing. RoK is  what 4 months away ?  So say in 2 months beta will becoming out, get used to this trend, it's not the last time you will see it. I can't believe they  do this but what can we do.  Surely they would have come up with a way to stop the plat sellers spam and make everyone happy but I guess not.

[Zarafein]

<p>Although it (maybe) shouldn't be this way, AAs play such a big role that i(i often create twinks) always take a serious look at them before i create a new character, they can have a huge impact on the playstyle.</p><p> "They nerf all classes before the release a new expansion.  Think back to KoS, then EoF, and now RoK.  They nerf the classes and call it balance so when the expansion is released they will put up new AA's for everyone to get back to the same point they were before. "</p><p>But we don't get new AAs this time, do we?</p>

[Gasheron]

<cite>Powers wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have several characters, I think I'm at 35 AA on the highest of them.  And I don't have KOS, so it's all in EOF trees. I can understand that these changes will have some effect, but surely not as much an effect as changing to a different line entirely would have, right? Powers  &8^] </blockquote><p> For some classes yes, these are minor nerfs or boosts. For others, the changes are a joke, making them worse off than they were before by quite an amount. Using monks yet again as an example (I know, I know, but out of my character design and personal choices the only character I play is a Monk), our only real ability of note, Tsunami, was just given to Guardians. Sure, they had it before, but it was on a 10 min timer. However these changes makes their Tsunami on the same timer as ours, and feels like the devs are insulting the Monk class.</p><p>And to Ice, and in reference to Lhang, yes, we are not getting new AA's in the next expansion. This has been confirmed. They did say, however, that they were going to be doing work on the existing AA's, which could mean more than just this upcoming LU. Also, there hasn't been anything said on increasing the number of AAs that we can get, so that might also be coming in the expansion.</p>

[graxnip]

no new aa with the new expansion, instead we get to go through this re-examining of our EOF aa then, this is all part 1

[Khrunk]

dont really see the need to nerf everyone to fix the aa lines that werent really liked. simply upping the crappy ones wouldve solved the problem without unbalancing the game. and an explanation as to why the aggro/hate transfers were changed would be greatly appreciated. gotta agree with previous posters that this is a bad update, unless you explain why nerfing stuff is beneficial to the longevity of the game.

[Armawk]

<p>For the big time (esp PVP) twinks certain AA lines have become religious almost. Like certain gear types also. It seems to go along with excessive personal association with a character class.</p><p>"I am a ranger and we got nerfed" as it were.</p><p>A bit freaky but whatever floats peoples boats I guess.</p>

[Armawk]

Surely a nerf of 20% of things is identical to an increase on 80% of things? Its all just stats.

[quasigenx]

I'll keep this civil. I, like the majority of players as far as I can tell, think these changes are causing more frustration in the short term than they will do good in the longterm. In addition, the way you messaged the changes was deceptive. At first it was a positive removal of certain restrictions ONLY. Then it was "tweaking a little here and there". Then it was the (predictably) total nerf meltdown. Communication was poor. The fact that the dev tracker was myseriously brought off line just prior to this negative press was quite a co-incidence... maybe I'm just being paranoid. I am disturbed that this keeps happening, as others have mentioned, just prior to expansions. PS - Please post explaining the reasoning for the aggro changes to non-AA abilities. There has been no info on this that I have seen.

[Frigid2000]

Bards made out like bandits, eh?  Good.  Do you have any idea how much bards needed help?  Ask your guild dirge or troubadour.

[Belfrain]

<p>Yes we should all be thrilled that basically raid agro and DPS is getting a major nerf across the board. I should be especially thrilled that Swash are taking a massive hit. It is especially nice that many EoF encounters are based on being able to do a certain amount of DPS in a short amount of time, which many guilds will not be able to do once your lovely update hits. It really sucks to spend several months and hundreds of hours raiding and gearing people up with items to match their AA's to see you completely FLUSH all that work down the crapper and have to start form scratch.</p><p> You also seem to fail to realzie that we are paying to do all this and then have you tell us about our tone? Our tone? Did anyoen sitting there at SOE really think that the changes you just made were going to get people excited? No way on earth could any rational human look at the massive nerfs to these classes think that this was a great idea.</p>

[Ravaan]

<cite>Frigid2000 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bards made out like bandits, eh?  Good.  Do you have any idea how much bards needed help?  Ask your guild dirge or troubadour. </blockquote> I dont think anyone is arguing that bards dont need a buff ... they do im sure many would agree. However you dont nerf 22 classes and buff 2 and not expect a backlash from those that dont play bards.

[blazerpuppies79]

<cite>Grimwell wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm fine with people stating why they may not like what just got sent to test. That's a part of the deal when you have a community - you get their feedback. That said, I'm not going to tolerate people using cuss words here (because I don't tolerate it anywhere in these forums when I find it), and I'm not going to tolerate name calling. It is very easy to say "I think that the changes to the AA line for my class could be better if... or are wrong because..." without saying "Grimwell is an idiot!" That is the line I'm trying to draw. Talk about the AA changes and give as much feedback about those changes as you can. Just don't make personal attacks or slip into bad language please. </blockquote><p>First of all I did not single anyone out or make a personal attack on anyone.  Would you like me to quote my own post?  Plus i gave the abbreviation for a common mmorpg saying........starts with w end with f.  so i didn't even use bad language.  I never said Grimwell is an idiot and i also apologized if anyone took offense but i did not call any names out or personally attack someone.  </p><p>That being said........I gave a solution which I doubt anyone will take heed to cuz you know like i'm not a developer and stuffs so i don't know anything.  </p><p>The point i was trying to make is not for one single class.  It is for EVERY class.  </p><p>This update is awsome in many ways.  Specifically the coin weight thingy and the weapon restrictions lifted.  However, the KOS achievements need to be completely and totally revamped.  Bare with me a moment i will try to explain my solution.</p><p>Since EOF aa's focus on the single class i believe i would be of more benefit to have KOS achievments that boost your overall character instead of giving abilities and special combat moves and spells.  This can all be done in the EOF or ROK aa's.  The kos aa's should be basic since they focus on only the archetype as it stands.</p><p>For instance.  Take the warrior archetype:</p><p>STR line-dps increase, combat art increase, critical hit range raised(not your critical hit chance but instead of 130% make it increases of say 2% per rank or something)</p><p>AGILITY line-avoidance increase, critical hit increase, movement speed increase, attack speed increase</p><p>STAMINA line-HP increase, Mitigation increase, Block and or parry increase.</p><p>WIS line-magical mitigation/resist, power regen increase, hp regen increase, small chance to automatically reflect spells back on their attack.......a very small chance that should be automatic.  Not a buff until canceled thing.  It should last indefenitely.  maybe 1% per rank or even less.(just a thought)</p><p>INT line-proc% increase, hate increase, proc damage increase, heal spell(casted on you by another)increased.</p><p>This is just an example but it is still something.</p><p>Then for the eof aa's you can focus on "defining class abilities".  Such as the defilers cannabalize and so on and so forth.  </p>

[Chanaluss]

im not really that well versed on the game, but ive done a bit of research, and im a bit concerned about the state of the fencer line after LU36 and 37. currently it is a viable option to use a 1h weapon over dual wield. the lunge reversal ability was fine at a 20 second reuse time, imo. the double attack reduction i dont mind too much, because its not that big of a change, but given the fact that its likely that the LU37 dual wield/1h weapon change will go live, its very feasible that dual wield will be the only option for rogues. it is of my personal, very mid level, noob opinion that all AA lines should be viable options depending on personal preference, and i fear that the currently slated changes to the Fencer AA line and the dual wield weapon changes will only cause it to be less useful than any dual wield combo.

[Flipmode]

<cite>Belfrain wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Yes we should all be thrilled that basically raid agro and DPS is getting a major nerf across the board. I should be especially thrilled that Swash are taking a massive hit. It is especially nice that many EoF encounters are based on being able to do a certain amount of DPS in a short amount of time, which many guilds will not be able to do once your lovely update hits. It really sucks to spend several months and hundreds of hours raiding and gearing people up with items to match their AA's to see you completely FLUSH all that work down the crapper and have to start form scratch.</p><p> <b><i><u>You also seem to fail to realzie that we are paying to do all this and then have you tell us about our tone? Our tone? Did anyoen sitting there at SOE really think that the changes you just made were going to get people excited? No way on earth could any rational human look at the massive nerfs to these classes think that this was a great idea.</u></i></b></p></blockquote> QFT...especially the bolded parts.

[Aker]

SOE want feedback lets try to give it from point of Assassin. I have 50 useless EoF AA I worked hard for. Now not all of them useless boosting ignorant bliss in my poisoning tree is now must to have. Predators, Sorcerers T1 DPS Not for a long time now (ad least not only us) but now without superior DPS and lack of utilities we even can't stay alive and even worthless then before to  to be invited in raids. You gave rouges DPS compared to ours with all utilities they have and we had all 1% more hate transfer from swashes (just problem was there spell is lvl62 and not so hard to find our is lvl53 and please let me know if you see one), now it is same % of hate transfer ty. (not that 1% was making some big change, with debuffs and AOEs they still hade our place in mt group I never liked anyway, but was making us feel better <img src="/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ) I got improved  smoke bombs GREAT now I'll respec just to see what my MT will do when i drop them in next EH raid and he can't make mob  target him for 4 sec <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (bw is that thing working on epics it is so tempting I never bothered to look at it really good :thumbup<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> About switching DW to one-handers, wont even bother lets wait and see how that will turn up. If it boost dps will be nerfed if it lower it I will have all scouts and all fighters to bid over good drop now. After waiting so long and giving so many points to get Bisected saber and GDOH as pair guess GDOH will go to history now as sec hand  weapon with slower delay will be just way to slow to even big hits compensate  for it, and Avatar pike will be best tanking weapon now so I can forget to ever put hand on it. Have a question is there really point to write all this? This list ca be to long and I guess noone from SOE will care any way  because they don't play or know there game as it seems more and more. sorry for my English just it is not my language.

[Triste-Lune]

i [Removed for Content] hate those change aggro will be all over the place. way to /finger all raiders that were all trying to get the best of their class, instead now the best players will have to hold back instead of being asked to go to the max of their potential. Only the stupid guild that were going around with a 15K dps will not feel affect. ,,l,,

[Themaginator]

<cite>Triste-Lune wrote:</cite><blockquote>i [I cannot control my vocabulary] hate those change aggro will be all over the place. way to /finger all raiders that were all trying to get the best of their class, instead now the best players will have to hold back instead of being asked to go to the max of their potential. Only the stupid guild that were going around with a 15K dps will not feel affect. ,,l,,</blockquote> see this is how not to complain...it offers no alternatives, its angry, all the makings of something that should be ignored

[Pogopuschel]

<cite>Triste-Lune wrote:</cite><blockquote> Only the stupid guild that were going around with a 15K dps will not feel affect.</blockquote> Of course they will - since a substantial part of a tank's hate is from transfers/buffs. I am not sure about the changes, will probably make it hard for dps classes, why even have the best weapons if you will pull aggro... No wonder people's opinions don't get heard - if I were a developer, I wouldn't see why I should waste my time on forums when there's so little constructive criticism.

[Hellswrath]

Sashtan@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote><cite>Triste-Lune wrote:</cite><blockquote>i [I cannot control my vocabulary] hate those change aggro will be all over the place. way to /finger all raiders that were all trying to get the best of their class, instead now the best players will have to hold back instead of being asked to go to the max of their potential. Only the stupid guild that were going around with a 15K dps will not feel affect. ,,l,,</blockquote> see this is how not to complain...it offers no alternatives, its angry, all the makings of something that should be ignored </blockquote><p> In fact, Sashtan, it is <i>your</i> posts in this thread that have all the makings of something that should be ignored.  You have not made a single constructive post on this thread.  That means that you have posted 9 times without doing anything but either whining about other people complaining or making comments that are not constructive.  You are not the only one who should post more constructively in this thread, but you are certainly the most inflammatory for the rest of the community.  If you have something constructive to say about a particular aspect of the changes, feel free.  Otherwise, please stop trolling these AA threads, as that is obviously your intent.</p><p>Moving on, while I do believe that the scout classes needed to have more responsibility in regards to aggro management, I have to agree that these changes will greatly unbalance raid aggro control as it stands now.  The only way this will work is if you go back and revamp all raid content.  As is normal for these changes, your raid content is based on things pre-change and will be unbalanced if you alter aggro control to this extent.  Another way to balance it, would be to balance the classes that have the hardest time with aggro so that they can reasonably fill the roll of their dps tier without pulling aggro.  Regardless, this change still needs work.</p>

[Zarafein]

<cite>Chanaluss wrote:</cite><blockquote>im not really that well versed on the game, but ive done a bit of research, and im a bit concerned about the state of the fencer line after LU36 and 37. currently it is a viable option to use a 1h weapon over dual wield. the lunge reversal ability was fine at a 20 second reuse time, imo. the double attack reduction i dont mind too much, because its not that big of a change, but given the fact that its likely that the LU37 dual wield/1h weapon change will go live, its very feasible that dual wield will be the only option for rogues. it is of my personal, very mid level, noob opinion that all AA lines should be viable options depending on personal preference, and i fear that the currently slated changes to the Fencer AA line and the dual wield weapon changes will only cause it to be less useful than any dual wield combo. </blockquote> Imo it looks a bit overpowered now but these are just early tests for the new system and the goal is to give both playstyle more weapon choices and not to nerf 1handed styles, sure it needs tweaking but if it is done correctly it could turn out very nice. It is also necessary for implenting epic weapons.

[Themaginator]

Hellswrath@Blackburrow wrote: <blockquote>Sashtan@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote><cite>Triste-Lune wrote:</cite><blockquote>i [I cannot control my vocabulary] hate those change aggro will be all over the place. way to /finger all raiders that were all trying to get the best of their class, instead now the best players will have to hold back instead of being asked to go to the max of their potential. Only the stupid guild that were going around with a 15K dps will not feel affect. ,,l,,</blockquote> see this is how not to complain...it offers no alternatives, its angry, all the makings of something that should be ignored </blockquote><p> In fact, Sashtan, it is <i>your</i> posts in this thread that have all the makings of something that should be ignored.  You have not made a single constructive post on this thread.  That means that you have posted 9 times without doing anything but either whining about other people complaining or making comments that are not constructive.  You are not the only one who should post more constructively in this thread, but you are certainly the most inflammatory for the rest of the community.  If you have something constructive to say about a particular aspect of the changes, feel free.  Otherwise, please stop trolling these AA threads, as that is obviously your intent.</p><p>Moving on, while I do believe that the scout classes needed to have more responsibility in regards to aggro management, I have to agree that these changes will greatly unbalance raid aggro control as it stands now.  The only way this will work is if you go back and revamp all raid content.  As is normal for these changes, your raid content is based on things pre-change and will be unbalanced if you alter aggro control to this extent.  Another way to balance it, would be to balance the classes that have the hardest time with aggro so that they can reasonably fill the roll of their dps tier without pulling aggro.  Regardless, this change still needs work.</p></blockquote>no i havent none of my posts here are constructive BUT nor are yours until now

[Shankonia]

<cite>Grimwell wrote:</cite><blockquote>Let's be careful with the tone and censored words friends. It is fine to discuss the changes and even to share where you think they may not be good changes. Cursing and beating on the dev team is not welcome.</blockquote><p> Grim, I feel ya man and fully agree.  I know it's not easy walking in your shoes.  </p><p>But I mean come on man!  Can we at least have some sort of reasoning or explanation as to how and why some of these choices were made?  The AA's just don't make sense.</p><p>I would love to log onto test to try everything out, but currently I don't have the time or the will power to level up a Monk on test to the same state of my current Monk, as I have to spend tons of time doing everything I possibly can to make him better so I can get a group or raid slot over any other run of the mill plate tank.  What gives?!?!?  The AA changes are painful and offensive to us on paper to be honest, and to top it off the seasoned and experienced Monks out there will never have a chance to test them out therefore making your job even more difficult.</p><p>As far as DW being taken out, and allowing 1hers to be used instead....I can't even think of a decent 1her that a Brawler can use other than Cudgel of Pain - which is lore!  How am I going to be able to utilize this if there is only one 1her I can equip that is even worth equipping?  </p><p>The Monk community has been posting idea after idea, many of which will satisfy us and work...yet the only idea that we NEVER came up with is what we've been given?  How is it fair that we are the worst fighters for tanking, least amout of fighter Utility, and to ice the cake, among the worst fighters for dps?</p><p>As childish as it may sound....IT'S JUST NOT FAIR!!!!!  <img src="/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />   </p>

[Hellswrath]

Sashtan@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote>Hellswrath@Blackburrow wrote: <blockquote>Sashtan@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote><cite>Triste-Lune wrote:</cite><blockquote>i [I cannot control my vocabulary] hate those change aggro will be all over the place. way to /finger all raiders that were all trying to get the best of their class, instead now the best players will have to hold back instead of being asked to go to the max of their potential. Only the stupid guild that were going around with a 15K dps will not feel affect. ,,l,,</blockquote> see this is how not to complain...it offers no alternatives, its angry, all the makings of something that should be ignored </blockquote><p> In fact, Sashtan, it is <i>your</i> posts in this thread that have all the makings of something that should be ignored.  You have not made a single constructive post on this thread.  That means that you have posted 9 times without doing anything but either whining about other people complaining or making comments that are not constructive.  You are not the only one who should post more constructively in this thread, but you are certainly the most inflammatory for the rest of the community.  If you have something constructive to say about a particular aspect of the changes, feel free.  Otherwise, please stop trolling these AA threads, as that is obviously your intent.</p><p>Moving on, while I do believe that the scout classes needed to have more responsibility in regards to aggro management, I have to agree that these changes will greatly unbalance raid aggro control as it stands now.  The only way this will work is if you go back and revamp all raid content.  As is normal for these changes, your raid content is based on things pre-change and will be unbalanced if you alter aggro control to this extent.  Another way to balance it, would be to balance the classes that have the hardest time with aggro so that they can reasonably fill the roll of their dps tier without pulling aggro.  Regardless, this change still needs work.</p></blockquote>no i havent none of my posts here are constructive BUT nor are yours until now </blockquote><p> Yeah, ummm, about that Sashtan.....That was my first post in this thread.</p><p>So let's recap.  My useful post count vs. total post count before this post:  1 out of 1</p><p>YOUR useful post count vs total post count:  0 out of 9  (I'll be nice and not count your response to me, since I'm not including this post in the count)</p><p>Any questions?  No?  Then stop trolling.  Post useful criticism or support if you wish, but stop harrassing others.  Notice the lack of "please" this time.</p>

[Zarafein]

<cite>Shankonia wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>As far as DW being taken out, and allowing 1hers to be used instead....I can't even think of a decent 1her that a Brawler can use other than Cudgel of Pain - which is lore!  How am I going to be able to utilize this if there is only one 1her I can equip that is even worth equipping?  </p></blockquote> All dual wield weapons(or most?) will become 1handers so you can use them as 1 handers OR dual wield and you can use most 1handers as dual wield too, so just more weapons to choose for you.

[Themaginator]

Hellswrath@Blackburrow wrote: <blockquote>Sashtan@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote>Hellswrath@Blackburrow wrote: <blockquote>Sashtan@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote><cite>Triste-Lune wrote:</cite><blockquote>i [I cannot control my vocabulary] hate those change aggro will be all over the place. way to /finger all raiders that were all trying to get the best of their class, instead now the best players will have to hold back instead of being asked to go to the max of their potential. Only the stupid guild that were going around with a 15K dps will not feel affect. ,,l,,</blockquote> see this is how not to complain...it offers no alternatives, its angry, all the makings of something that should be ignored </blockquote><p> In fact, Sashtan, it is <i>your</i> posts in this thread that have all the makings of something that should be ignored.  You have not made a single constructive post on this thread.  That means that you have posted 9 times without doing anything but either whining about other people complaining or making comments that are not constructive.  You are not the only one who should post more constructively in this thread, but you are certainly the most inflammatory for the rest of the community.  If you have something constructive to say about a particular aspect of the changes, feel free.  Otherwise, please stop trolling these AA threads, as that is obviously your intent.</p><p>Moving on, while I do believe that the scout classes needed to have more responsibility in regards to aggro management, I have to agree that these changes will greatly unbalance raid aggro control as it stands now.  The only way this will work is if you go back and revamp all raid content.  As is normal for these changes, your raid content is based on things pre-change and will be unbalanced if you alter aggro control to this extent.  Another way to balance it, would be to balance the classes that have the hardest time with aggro so that they can reasonably fill the roll of their dps tier without pulling aggro.  Regardless, this change still needs work.</p></blockquote>no i havent none of my posts here are constructive BUT nor are yours until now </blockquote><p> Yeah, ummm, about that Sashtan.....That was my first post in this thread.</p><p>So let's recap.  My useful post count vs. total post count before this post:  1 out of 1</p><p>YOUR useful post count vs total post count:  0 out of 9  (I'll be nice and not count your response to me, since I'm not including this post in the count)</p><p>Any questions?  No?  Then stop trolling.  Post useful criticism or support if you wish, but stop harrassing others.  Notice the lack of "please" this time.</p></blockquote>I'm just saying theres ways to complain and be taken seriously and ways to complain and not be taken seriously, if i must be called a troll to bring this to light then so be it. want me to add my 2 cents? here I like most of the changes and understand that most of the nerfs made were used to balance out the huge buffs that some of the other achievements have gotten.  Only problem i really have is the Brawler tree where the double attack got changed to a very low damage bonus to combat arts (when most brawler DPS is from auto-attack any way). I would have liked to just see the double attack decreased (by a lot probably since it was at something like 90% maxed out) instead of a change to a small damage increase in damage but eh. See there ya go i have problems with it to, but i presented them in a calm cool collected manner and offered an alternative to the current change.  This is called constructive feedback people, learn to use it, its the only way you'll get change.

[Ravaan]

Sashtan@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote>Hellswrath@Blackburrow wrote: <blockquote>Sashtan@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote>Hellswrath@Blackburrow wrote: <blockquote>Sashtan@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote><cite>Triste-Lune wrote:</cite><blockquote>i [I cannot control my vocabulary] hate those change aggro will be all over the place. way to /finger all raiders that were all trying to get the best of their class, instead now the best players will have to hold back instead of being asked to go to the max of their potential. Only the stupid guild that were going around with a 15K dps will not feel affect. ,,l,,</blockquote> see this is how not to complain...it offers no alternatives, its angry, all the makings of something that should be ignored </blockquote><p> In fact, Sashtan, it is <i>your</i> posts in this thread that have all the makings of something that should be ignored.  You have not made a single constructive post on this thread.  That means that you have posted 9 times without doing anything but either whining about other people complaining or making comments that are not constructive.  You are not the only one who should post more constructively in this thread, but you are certainly the most inflammatory for the rest of the community.  If you have something constructive to say about a particular aspect of the changes, feel free.  Otherwise, please stop trolling these AA threads, as that is obviously your intent.</p><p>Moving on, while I do believe that the scout classes needed to have more responsibility in regards to aggro management, I have to agree that these changes will greatly unbalance raid aggro control as it stands now.  The only way this will work is if you go back and revamp all raid content.  As is normal for these changes, your raid content is based on things pre-change and will be unbalanced if you alter aggro control to this extent.  Another way to balance it, would be to balance the classes that have the hardest time with aggro so that they can reasonably fill the roll of their dps tier without pulling aggro.  Regardless, this change still needs work.</p></blockquote>no i havent none of my posts here are constructive BUT nor are yours until now </blockquote><p> Yeah, ummm, about that Sashtan.....That was my first post in this thread.</p><p>So let's recap.  My useful post count vs. total post count before this post:  1 out of 1</p><p>YOUR useful post count vs total post count:  0 out of 9  (I'll be nice and not count your response to me, since I'm not including this post in the count)</p><p>Any questions?  No?  Then stop trolling.  Post useful criticism or support if you wish, but stop harrassing others.  Notice the lack of "please" this time.</p></blockquote>I'm just saying theres ways to complain and be taken seriously and ways to complain and not be taken seriously, if i must be called a troll to bring this to light then so be it. want me to add my 2 cents? here I like most of the changes and understand that most of the nerfs made were used to balance out the huge buffs that some of the other achievements have gotten.  Only problem i really have is the Brawler tree where the double attack got changed to a very low damage bonus to combat arts (when most brawler DPS is from auto-attack any way). I would have liked to just see the double attack decreased (by a lot probably since it was at something like 90% maxed out) instead of a change to a small damage increase in damage but eh. See there ya go i have problems with it to, but i presented them in a calm cool collected manner and offered an alternative to the current change.  This is called constructive feedback people, learn to use it, its the only way you'll get change. </blockquote><p>because your "drama queens" post was calm cool and collected and im sure just inspired MANY people to post constructively.</p><p>and you call me a hypocrite? </p>

[Themaginator]

i dont care about all that when complaining about whiners, just when i have something important to say, i love how i've made so many people angry at me, its just made my day =P

[Rast]

<p>In my opinion, what is bad probably isn't as bad as we think it is, and what is good, probably isn't as good as we think either...  it is all in the execution that matters.  We are making our feedback (for the most part) on paper descriptions and with the thoughts that all other things are the same...  We are attempting to pull out one change and show why it is bad, but not taking into account all the other things that are changing with it.</p><p>We won't know the full impact of the changes for several months to come and all the changes get normalized into the players.  Personally, if it adds more personal responsibility in playing, I'm all for that...  There are times the game is too easy, it might make some of the DPSers out there better players in the long run, rather than giving them easy street.  It will do the same for the tanks as well.</p><p>Personally, I think it is a good thing, but the reality of it is...  only time will tell.</p>

[Sandain666]

<cite>Grimwell wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm fine with people stating why they may not like what just got sent to test. That's a part of the deal when you have a community - you get their feedback. That said, I'm not going to tolerate people using cuss words here (because I don't tolerate it anywhere in these forums when I find it), and I'm not going to tolerate name calling. It is very easy to say "I think that the changes to the AA line for my class could be better if... or are wrong because..." without saying "Grimwell is an idiot!" That is the line I'm trying to draw. Talk about the AA changes and give as much feedback about those changes as you can. Just don't make personal attacks or slip into bad language please.</blockquote> It would be really nice to see at least one developer response  to some of the issues being raised in this thread rather than just admonishin g people for using strong language.  To sum up my feelings on the proposed changes. <b>You do not have to reduce the effectiveness of popular AA lines to make other lines more desirable.</b> For example, if you are trying to sell 2 houses , one with a leaky roof ane one with a brand new one. Are you going to smash holes into the roof of the house with the good roof to make them both equal?

[Couching]

Lhangion@Innovation wrote: <blockquote><cite>Shankonia wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>As far as DW being taken out, and allowing 1hers to be used instead....I can't even think of a decent 1her that a Brawler can use other than Cudgel of Pain - which is lore!  How am I going to be able to utilize this if there is only one 1her I can equip that is even worth equipping?  </p></blockquote> All dual wield weapons(or most?) will become 1handers so you can use them as 1 handers OR dual wield and you can use most 1handers as dual wield too, so just more weapons to choose for you.</blockquote>No, all the existing 1h we can use is 1h for all fighters and it's rare.  Most 1h existing weapons are for scouts, guardian and zerker, pally and sk. Moreover, most 1h weapons comparing to DW weapons have lower delay, it makes them better than DW even with same damage rating. A 1.6 delay 85 DR 1h and a 3 delay 85 delay 1h, which one will you choose? Since SoE is going to turn all DW weapons to 1h weapons, what they did is multiply 1.33 on damage. It's really silly. They need to reconsider damage spread and delay of existing DW weapons. Otherwise, most DW is worse than existing 1h, at least for brawler DW weapons.

[Zarafein]

<p>You will still be able to use all weapons you used before they are not realy made to 1handers, just named 1handers, you dual wield weapons will have higher damage but still useable in both slots..</p>

[Gasheron]

Lhangion@Innovation wrote: <blockquote><p>You will still be able to use all weapons you used before they are not realy made to 1handers, just named 1handers, you dual wield weapons will have higher damage but still useable in both slots..</p></blockquote><p> And yet still be inferior to the normal 1handers since the change was a straight multiplication and not a balance.</p><p>Most of the good 1handers in the game we can't use, as they are swords/axes. There are very few good 1handers that brawlers can use. With this change, the classes that have good 1handers can now put a second good 1hander in their offhand slot, only saccing a small amount of delay of their offhand, while we are stuck with the same weapons just... bumped up a bit.</p><p>The DW weapons need to be rebalanced to match 1handers, and the 1.33 multiplication just doesn't do it.</p>

[Shankonia]

<cite>Frigid2000 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bards made out like bandits, eh?  Good.  Do you have any idea how much bards needed help?  Ask your guild dirge or troubadour. </blockquote> Yeah, tell me about it.  I was hoping for a total Dirge nerf so folks would want me to play my Monk again......quit the game a few Months ago because of this, heard rumors so came back, now here we are.......I guess i'll give it until the LU to see for myself.

[Supernova17]

The funny thing is we are getting hit by the nerf bat and people think we're escaping untouched. What's even more funny is the people that play our classes and don't realize it. There is no longer a reason to spec for the Mage pet, it will constantly be killing itself now thanks to SOE making a buff that didn't stick while zoning into a permanent buff...um tell me why Mage's should be intercepting other people's damage? Deedeedee...

[Strade]

My gosh, do you people even play on test?

[Cocytus]

No, because Sony in its Naivete believes the only reliable method of testing is to force people to roll alts and level up rather than transfer their raid mains to test raid content that test server raiding guilds can't even come close to.

[Armawk]

Youris@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote> None of which are backed up with numbers, or the results of encounters on test.  </blockquote> Well said. None of us should really be chattering on about things we havent personally tested, in THIS forum. There are plenty others for that.

[TheBu]

Youris@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote>Sashtan@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote>drama queens </blockquote><p> Agreed.  I come here looking for information...I find page after page of whining.  None of which are backed up with numbers, or the results of encounters on test.  </p><p>I guess I'll just wait for it to go live.</p></blockquote><p> We been posting the numbers. you may not know the specific of each class who been "reduced" </p><p>here one "Wisdom 4 - Brainstorm: No longer requires no weapon equipped, but reduced bonus to 0.5% per rank. However now it stacks with Freehand Sorcery and other spell damage increase achievements."</p><p>1. changes a 8% increase in dps to 4%.   .5 x8  Thats a 4% "reduction" on wizzy DPS   <= numbers Just ignore the however part of it as they stack before.</p>

[Siclone]

Youris@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote>Sashtan@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote>drama queens </blockquote><p> Agreed.  I come here looking for information...I find page after page of whining.  None of which are backed up with numbers, or the results of encounters on test.  </p><p>I guess I'll just wait for it to go live.</p></blockquote>Agreed.  I mean stop your whining and tell us of your expenices on test.  How do these changes effect. 

[tbone7777]

I use the wis line as a necro and the int change doesn't affect me, but I can see why those that do are upset. As far as the aggro changes, I would imagine the uber guilds that have so much dps have influenced this change...I have seen posts from guilds that have basically one strategy....burn burn burn. Overpowering a mob to the point where its [Removed for Content] probably wasn't SOE's original intent.

[snowzeh]

<p>Let's be careful with the tone and censored words friends. It is fine to discuss the changes and even to share where you think they may not be good changes. Cursing and beating on the dev team is not welcome.</p><p>What am I a 12 year old? Beating on the dev team is not welcome,eh? Well,I don't welcome sweeping changes to the game,with NO explanation.Let's just see here..EQ1 plus the 1st 9 expansions..at 30$ a pop..plus the sub,which was 13/month then..That puts me at close to a grand.Now add EQ2,which i paid 40$ for,and all expansions,so add another 90.I've had Station access for over 2 years now at over 30/month.So in all reality,I've given SOE hundreds of dollars to play these games.And that is just me.</p><p>People are here looking/wanting answers from the devs,not threats and browbeating.</p>

[RFMan]

Here I go: 1. Brawler strength tree was reduced (or something), BUT THEY CAN USE WEAPONS 2. Wizard wisdom line was reduced, BUT THEY CAN USE AN OFFHAND/2HANDER 3. Scout aggro was nerfed pretty hard, but sorcerers have been in that position for the duration of the game, so stop whining about scouts specifically (see #5) 4. The summoner mage pet issue really does need to be addressed 5. Since aggro transfer and generation has been nerfed, sorcerers, who have already had issues (ESPECIALLY in non-uber guilds), will likely have unprecedented problems with dying on raids I like almost all of the changes I've seen EXCEPT with regard to aggro transfer and increase.  This is going to make the hard job of sorcerers even harder, but at least the scouts will be able to sympathize, now.  Aggro issues make the game un-fun, and they are a serious detriment to casual raiders especially, which make up a large portion of the player-base.  I <i>do </i>agree with the idea of making the tanks produce more of their own aggro, though; however, I don't think that's happening. People really need to get a grip on themselves, though.  This will not force anyone to relearn anything, though it might force some scouts to actually try to control what they do *gasp*.  I just hope the devs realize that aggro issues are the most aggravating kind, pun-like-thing intended.  They should seriously reconsider a lot of these aggro changes, or they should at LEAST give ALL tanks like %15 increased aggro on their defensive stance.

[Kainsei]

<cite>RFMan wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here I go: 1. Brawler strength tree was reduced (or something), BUT THEY CAN USE WEAPONS </blockquote>Just a few things : The str tree was totally annihilated. The best part of this tree was 96% double attack with no weapons. When the brawler community heard of removing weapons restrictions, <u><b>we all knew that 96% double attack with weapons would be overpowered.</b></u> So, every brawler assumed that we would get something significant like 20 or 30% double attack, but all we got was 6% increase on CAs. Let's say I'm doing 1.5k dps in raids. 1K dps is from autoattack, 500 from combat arts, you can see that 8 AA points for 6% increased dmg (around 40 dps, yes forty damage per second) means nothing to us. Adding the fact that the brawler community has been gathering a lot of ideas to make both classes desireable in raids without trivalizing (sp ?) solo content, the changes to the str tree explains why you can see a lot of brawlers providing feedback. (I admit that many of us (myself included) were p*ssed off).

[Dimgl]

<cite>quasigenx wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'll keep this civil. I, like the majority of players as far as I can tell, think these changes are causing more frustration in the short term than they will do good in the longterm. In addition, the way you messaged the changes was deceptive. At first it was a positive removal of certain restrictions ONLY. Then it was "tweaking a little here and there". Then it was the (predictably) total nerf meltdown. Communication was poor. The fact that the dev tracker was myseriously brought off line just prior to this negative press was quite a co-incidence... maybe I'm just being paranoid. I am disturbed that this keeps happening, as others have mentioned, just prior to expansions. PS - Please post explaining the reasoning for the aggro changes to non-AA abilities. There has been no info on this that I have seen. </blockquote> <span style="color: #00cc99">Haha. You know, I'd taken this entire thing in good humor until I read this post. Not because it was full of vitriol or anything, but because it was precise and well... correct. They really should've just buffed up other achievement lines to be competitive. I'd say the archaic thought that achievements are just extra, and wouldn't be necessary to play the game is long dead. Especially given how -easy- it is to get the first 50-70 achievements. Solo players who use EQ2i to do questlines hit 90+ achievements before they hit 70. Removing the restrictions is a shame too. It added style. But they seem dead-set on putting in specific "epic" weapons. So despite differentiating ourselves with weapons we're headed towards a system where we all may wear very similar gear. Full circle I guess. And while only half serious, I will say that they could just remove the limits and let people run hog wild. Hard to complain about line-to-line balance when you can get everything. </span>

[Solaran_X]

LU13 - Combat System Revamp. From when it was announced, the Chicken Littles of EQ2 were crying that the sky was falling. LU13 hit...and guess what? The sky didn't fall. In fact...classes got stronger! LU24 - Crafting System Revamp. From when it was announced, the Chicken Littles of EQ2 were crying that the sky was falling. LU24 hit...and guess what? The sky didn't fall. In fact...crafted items got...BETTER! GU36 - KOS Achievement Revamp. From when it was announced, the Chicken Lit...eh...you get the idea.

[KinMorbidreamer]

LU13 had to undergo ALOT of changes and tweaks before it went live and a few afterwards because it did, in fact, suck. after it was all said and done it was good. LU24 added alot of different TS armor, which was good, but it made the system too dull, at least for me. With so few combines to do now and no subs to xp off of it takes longer and costs more to TS and I simply cannot do it anymore. LU36 doesn't seem too bad...but some things do need to be tweaked just as LU13 had to be played with before it was viable. Some classes that didn't need buffing got better and some classes that were already underpowered (ie brawlers) only get hammered down farther. Then, they went and messed with an EoF Warden AA that, in no way, made them too powerful or whatever because they claimed it was a bug fix. *rolls eyes*

[MrWolfie]

Vaeamdar@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote>LU13 - Combat System Revamp. From when it was announced, the Chicken Littles of EQ2 were crying that the sky was falling. LU13 hit...and guess what? The sky didn't fall. In fact...classes got stronger! <p><span style="color: #ff6600">Wrong! In fact, several classes got weaker and more still got less desireable. (See? I can spout wildly without providing any evidence too*)</span></p><p>LU24 - Crafting System Revamp. From when it was announced, the Chicken Littles of EQ2 were crying that the sky was falling. LU24 hit...and guess what? The sky didn't fall. In fact...crafted items got...BETTER!</p><p><span style="color: #ff6600">Wrong! In fact, crafted items were mostly unchanged by LU24 ~ the process of crafting was what got changed. Making it easier. Which resulted in more crafters. Which resulted in more crafted goods. Which were undesirable to begin with. So we're left with item progression with no desirability or requirement for crafted goods, but hey, at least you don't have to plan ahead anymore...</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600">Quests were introduced that required crafting, and high level at that. Encouraging more people to craft. Edging the business-person crafter out even further.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600">Then when that failed, because let's face it: some people are NEVER going to craft, they introduced a commission system which was broken on several levels (and remains broken in that *any* crafter can't make *anything* unless they've already made it before).</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600">So, in fact, nothing about crafting (barring writs and a very communicative developer) has truly improved since the removal of sub-combines. </span> GU36 - KOS Achievement Revamp. From when it was announced, the Chicken Lit...eh...you get the idea.</p><p><span style="color: #ff6600">Didn't you miss the other revamps? The ones that made small, unconventional groups unplayable...</span></p><div align="right"><span style="color: #ff6600">*although, I was a Warlock and a Templar. So I know firsthand what LU13 did.</span></div></blockquote>

[Solaran_X]

<cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote>Vaeamdar@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote>LU13 - Combat System Revamp. From when it was announced, the Chicken Littles of EQ2 were crying that the sky was falling. LU13 hit...and guess what? The sky didn't fall. In fact...classes got stronger! <p><span style="color: #ff6600">Wrong! In fact, several classes got weaker and more still got less desireable. (See? I can spout wildly without providing any evidence too*)</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600"><span style="color: #0033ff">When LU13 hit, I had a Necromancer, a Shadowknight, an Assassin, and a Defiler. And, oddly enough...none of them got weak. The only class that was heavily weakened was the Guardian and Berserker...but then again, they were overpowered - best tanking ability and best DPS of all the Fighter classes which made Brawlers and Crusaders undesired.</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #0033ff">Of course...I was only playing four classes spread out among the four archetypes when LU13 hit. What would I know about it?</span> </p><p>LU24 - Crafting System Revamp. From when it was announced, the Chicken Littles of EQ2 were crying that the sky was falling. LU24 hit...and guess what? The sky didn't fall. In fact...crafted items got...BETTER!</p><p><span style="color: #ff6600">Wrong! In fact, crafted items were mostly unchanged by LU24 ~ the process of crafting was what got changed. Making it easier. Which resulted in more crafters. Which resulted in more crafted goods. Which were undesirable to begin with. So we're left with item progression with no desirability or requirement for crafted goods, but hey, at least you don't have to plan ahead anymore...</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600">Quests were introduced that required crafting, and high level at that. Encouraging more people to craft. Edging the business-person crafter out even further.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600">Then when that failed, because let's face it: some people are NEVER going to craft, they introduced a commission system which was broken on several levels (and remains broken in that *any* crafter can't make *anything* unless they've already made it before).</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600">So, in fact, nothing about crafting (barring writs and a very communicative developer) has truly improved since the removal of sub-combines.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600"><span style="color: #0000ff">No...the diversity in fact improved crafted items above their pre-LU24 state. Instead of lumping all the clothies, leather wearers, chain users, and walking dinner plates into one set of armor - armor was diversified to suit different classes (or ways of playing a class). This was a massive improvement in the crafted armor and crafting process.</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600"> </span> GU36 - KOS Achievement Revamp. From when it was announced, the Chicken Lit...eh...you get the idea.</p><p><span style="color: #ff6600">Didn't you miss the other revamps? The ones that made small, unconventional groups unplayable...</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600"><span style="color: #0000ff">Really? People who are actually knowledgeable of their classes will always be able to duo or fulfill multiple roles in a group to make the small, unconventional groups playful.</span> </span></p><div align="right"><span style="color: #ff6600">*although, I was a Warlock and a Templar. So I know firsthand what LU13 did. <span style="color: #0000ff">And I was a Necromancer, Shadowknight, Assassin, and Defiler. So I too know firsthand what LU13 did.</span> </span></div></blockquote> </blockquote>

[MrWolfie]

<p>LU 13: Last time I looked, there were 24 adventuring classes. The liklihood of your opinion being right for all of them is nil.</p><p>(By the way, I note no mention of how uber your tank pet is. Or how an SK is less desirable on a raid than broken wind in a full set of plate.)</p><p>LU 26: There are more crafters than Armorsmiths and Tailors. The changes you mention don't help the other 78% of crafters.</p><p>Experiences differ. We're not both wrong. The only difference is: I can accept that you didn't suffer at the hands of reckless developers, while you seem bent on insisting that I (and others) really have nothing to gripe about.</p>

[Rast]

<p>Crafting died to me on LU24, pure and simple.  The gear is next to worthless and the process could put an insomniac to sleep...</p><p>I don't know much about LU13 as I took a break around 5 months in and didn't come back until DoF was already firmly entrenched...  But I can tell you that not all classes are getting hit negatively on this revamp either.</p>

[sliderhouserules]

Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote><p>Crafting died to me on LU24, pure and simple.  The gear is next to worthless and the process could put an insomniac to sleep...</p></blockquote>Same here.

[Solaran_X]

Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote><p>Crafting died to me on LU24, pure and simple.  The gear is next to worthless <b>and the process could put an insomniac to sleep...</b></p><p>I don't know much about LU13 as I took a break around 5 months in and didn't come back until DoF was already firmly entrenched...  But I can tell you that not all classes are getting hit negatively on this revamp either.</p></blockquote>And it was somehow better to make a 1000 washes, a 1000 oils, a 1000 resins, a 1000 tempers...and <b>THEN</b> hopefully you have enough subs to make more subs (hilts, blades, crossguards, studs, etc., etc.)...and <b>THEN</b> hopefully have enough of the main subs to gain two or three tradeskill levels before making a thousand more of each of the infamous WORTs? I'm sorry. But pre-LU24 tradeskilling is what would put an insomniac to sleep. Cause it put me to sleep, and I have serious trouble sleeping.

[Oakum]

Vaeamdar@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote>Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote><p>Crafting died to me on LU24, pure and simple.  The gear is next to worthless <b>and the process could put an insomniac to sleep...</b></p><p>I don't know much about LU13 as I took a break around 5 months in and didn't come back until DoF was already firmly entrenched...  But I can tell you that not all classes are getting hit negatively on this revamp either.</p></blockquote>And it was somehow better to make a 1000 washes, a 1000 oils, a 1000 resins, a 1000 tempers...and <b>THEN</b> hopefully you have enough subs to make more subs (hilts, blades, crossguards, studs, etc., etc.)...and <b>THEN</b> hopefully have enough of the main subs to gain two or three tradeskill levels before making a thousand more of each of the infamous WORTs? I'm sorry. But pre-LU24 tradeskilling is what would put an insomniac to sleep. Cause it put me to sleep, and I have serious trouble sleeping. </blockquote><p>Let me put it this way, pre LU-24 it took a little thought. To make a stack of spells took so many refines to make so many interims to make the final. I agree that either less total combines or batch combines to make more worts at once would have been a decent compromise beween what we had then and the assembly line crafting we have now. </p><p>Now its okay, got the raws, I am done, "$#!!, fell asleep crafting again" and the only thought required is do I harvest or buy off the broker. The only fun is in leveling a crafter alt. </p><p>Another pre and post LU-24 perspective is this. Before LU-24, the only place I heard people mention bot crafting was on the forums although someone ask me once if I was a bot as I crafted, lol. </p><p> After LU-24 I have heard a bunch of people say they would rather macro craft while watching tv then fall asleep doing it manually just to sell almost everything back for fuel cost anyway.  </p><p>The sad thing is that I spend a lot less time in the crafting instances after LU 24 then I did before and hear that. I don't see it as an unfortuneate coincidence but as a direct result of the crafting nerfs. Bring back required thought or at least risk of death to crafting. </p>

[Aull]

I just wanted to let all the devs know that I appreciate all that you do. I know that this thread looks heated at times and I would agree with most that probably taking away a great benefit of one aa line up could pose for major confict. I like the fact that the devs are doing something rather than doing nothing at all. I hear that the brawlers have lost double attack? Instead of taking away the greatness of that line up why not leave that line up "as is" and maybe strengthen the others that are less beneficial to a certain situation. I know that we can't have all we ask for. If these forums have been asking for balance in the kos aa's then this is what the devs are probably trying to achieve. However I don't really know how this will play out, cause I am hearing to much about things I haven't tried yet. All I can say is I am not going to quit and all the bad issues will work out...it just may take some time....Again I just want to say thanks to the devs. I know you Devs can't please us all, but I do feel that you are trying. Most people don't try at all!   Thanks.

[silentpsycho]

<cite>blazerpuppies79 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>these new KOS aa's suck.  Maybe one out of 10 are..."decent".   Brawler double attack completely nerfed?  In exchange for a 6% boost in CA's?  [I cannot control my vocabulary]?<img src="/smilies/0a4d7238daa496a758252d0a2b1a1384.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Are these devs aware that with no weapons equipped you are NOT dual-wielding?  And howcome the trees make no sense?  Why is a critical hit in the INT line?  Shouldn't it be in the agility tree?  This isn't just for brawlers either.  Every class was nerfed in some way.  The lack of requirements for weapons are cool but damnnnnnn they really need to get double attack under control.  There should be a base chance for double attack depending on your archetype like for instance.....warriors get 45%, Crusaders get 50%, Brawlers get 75%, Predators get 96%, Rogues get 80%, bards get 35% and so on and so forth.  Or why not just get rid of double attack entirely.  It doesn't even make sense.  Attacking twice in the time you normally attack once...........sounds like 100% haste?(not sure on my math there sorry that might be 200%)  Why not just grant a % haste that lets you attack twice in the time it takes to attack once?   Because it would be OVERPOWERING if you had haste like that 75% of the time.  But double attack isn't?  The whole theory behind dbl attk is seriously dumb.  You can't give an overpowering ability to a few classes then take it from the class that is known for having the highest dbl attk rate(if specced a certain way).  Anyway i can keep on but i'll stop for now with what i believe will make a great solution............</p><p>Get rid if double attack completely.  Re-do every KOS achievement line for EVERY class.</p></blockquote> Yeah, well, Kunark is coming out soon.  They have to take stuff away so they have something "cool" to give us in the "new" AA tree.  Just like before, all over again.

[Moondance]

<p>Sad isnt it that the way they keep us playing is keep knocking us down to buy the expansion to get back what we had. We all hate it, we all think it sucks, but yet we all keep playing so we can be that uber character we was before the SCREWED us over to beging with. I remember the nerf before EOF. I deleted my 55 bruiser because I thought the avoidance change sucked and I refused to play it anymore. Sad now that I have a 70 wizard they go and nerf their dmg output which didnt by any means need to be nerfed. For that matter if any of the SOE developers really need to nerf class to not be too powerful to do it all maybe they need to go to the EQ1 team. I remember when I left their there were folks doing what they said shouldnt be lol. Either way. As much as I love to throw a tantrum and all about this crap they arent goin to listen to us. They never have, they never will. In the end we keep playing so they just sit back and have their laugh and wait for the next expansion to come out so they can do it all again. Pathetic they dont listen to the very ones that pay their salaries, US.</p>

[Themaginator]

<cite>Moondance wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Sad isnt it that the way they keep us playing is keep knocking us down to buy the expansion to get back what we had. We all hate it, we all think it sucks, but yet we all keep playing so we can be that uber character we was before the SCREWED us over to beging with. I remember the nerf before EOF. I deleted my 55 bruiser because I thought the avoidance change sucked and I refused to play it anymore. Sad now that I have a 70 wizard they go and nerf their dmg output which didnt by any means need to be nerfed. For that matter if any of the SOE developers really need to nerf class to not be too powerful to do it all maybe they need to go to the EQ1 team. I remember when I left their there were folks doing what they said shouldnt be lol. Either way. As much as I love to throw a tantrum and all about this crap they arent goin to listen to us. They never have, they never will. In the end we keep playing so they just sit back and have their laugh and wait for the next expansion to come out so they can do it all again. Pathetic they dont listen to the very ones that pay their salaries, US.</p></blockquote> thing is, they didnt take nearly enough away (in lots of places they just buffed people) to make THAT big of a difference to "Have to get up to where we were before"... NOT even close

[Steelbreath]

<cite>Moondance wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Sad isnt it that the way they keep us playing is keep knocking us down to buy the expansion to get back what we had. We all hate it, we all think it sucks, but yet we all keep playing so we can be that uber character we was before the SCREWED us over to beging with. I remember the nerf before EOF. I deleted my 55 bruiser because I thought the avoidance change sucked and I refused to play it anymore. Sad now that I have a 70 wizard they go and nerf their dmg output which didnt by any means need to be nerfed. For that matter if any of the SOE developers really need to nerf class to not be too powerful to do it all maybe they need to go to the EQ1 team. I remember when I left their there were folks doing what they said shouldnt be lol. Either way. As much as I love to throw a tantrum and all about this crap they arent goin to listen to us. They never have, they never will. In the end we keep playing so they just sit back and have their laugh and wait for the next expansion to come out so they can do it all again. Pathetic they dont listen to the very ones that pay their salaries, US.</p></blockquote> I don't agree with this sentiment. So far the paradigm in MMOs is that they never stay static, the devs have their reasons for changing things, and I doubt these are the reasons. It is a problem when they don't communicate clearly why they are changing stuff. The game isn't fundamentally changing with this LU, but it is apparent that some people feel that it is.

[Zehl_Ice-Fire]

Vaeamdar@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote>Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote><p>Crafting died to me on LU24, pure and simple.  The gear is next to worthless <b>and the process could put an insomniac to sleep...</b></p><p>I don't know much about LU13 as I took a break around 5 months in and didn't come back until DoF was already firmly entrenched...  But I can tell you that not all classes are getting hit negatively on this revamp either.</p></blockquote>And it was somehow better to make a 1000 washes, a 1000 oils, a 1000 resins, a 1000 tempers...and <b>THEN</b> hopefully you have enough subs to make more subs (hilts, blades, crossguards, studs, etc., etc.)...and <b>THEN</b> hopefully have enough of the main subs to gain two or three tradeskill levels before making a thousand more of each of the infamous WORTs? I'm sorry. But pre-LU24 tradeskilling is what would put an insomniac to sleep. Cause it put me to sleep, and I have serious trouble sleeping. </blockquote><p>I mean who didn't love making tons of pre combines that were gray at the end of a tier for zero XP, then screwing up your 5th combine for an item (take food for instance) and oops no pristine, waste of time, start over. (that was sarcasm). I was a provisioner and avid crafter from day 1, I was 50 before DoF, and I loved the revamp, you never have to make gray recipes while leveling! You never have to make anything but white cons if you are leveling. Provis have so many diff raws and used to have tons of different ingredients (please don't bring all of them back with the return of chocolate) and then if you didn't always get pristine, I ran out of inventory space so fast... writs were painful.</p><p>As far as listening to those who pay the salaries, *us*, the devs should, sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. A friend who left EQ2 and now has been playing another MMO and said the amazing thing about that one is the devs are always right there asking, listening and making it fun and changing things everyone thinks suck and enhancing what is already fun.</p>

[Hurdoc]

<p>Anyone who thinks pre-LU24 crafting was better must have been on crack because:</p><p>a) THAT is the only way you would stay awake.</p><p>b) You would be too high to notice the tedium.</p>

[doctorbow]

<cite>Grimwell wrote:</cite><blockquote>Let's be careful with the tone and censored words friends. It is fine to discuss the changes and even to share where you think they may not be good changes. Cursing and beating on the dev team is not welcome.</blockquote> Also like to state that you guys are a hard crowd to please.  There's the other side of the fence that is constantly complaining when content of any type gets 'nerfed' to the point of being trivial blah blah blah.  Which is OT to the original point. Yes, everyone's getting hit a little, keep in mind that is WHY they do this sort of thing in a test environment.  Keep things constructive instead of griping about every thing, and instead add OMGosh feedback, which is the entire reason this section of the forums is here "In-Testing "FEEDBACK"'.  Help instead of hinder.  I'd expect more griping if these things went live without testing, but be a little more reasonable, and maybe just maybe think that the SoE dev team IS here to listen to our concerns and to TRY to make things balanced and better, instead of thinking the sky is falling everytime they dual-wield their Nerf bats, K guys?  That's why the test environment exists, it's not a live server and you shouldn't expect everything to be absolutely perfect.

[Jaroth Cloudwalk]

Vaeamdar@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote><cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote>Vaeamdar@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote>LU13 - Combat System Revamp. From when it was announced, the Chicken Littles of EQ2 were crying that the sky was falling. LU13 hit...and guess what? The sky didn't fall. In fact...classes got stronger! <p><span style="color: #ff6600">Wrong! In fact, several classes got weaker and more still got less desireable. (See? I can spout wildly without providing any evidence too*)</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600"><span style="color: #0033ff">When LU13 hit, I had a Necromancer, a Shadowknight, an Assassin, and a Defiler. And, oddly enough...none of them got weak. The only class that was heavily weakened was the Guardian and Berserker...but then again, they were overpowered - best tanking ability and best DPS of all the Fighter classes which made Brawlers and Crusaders undesired.</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #0033ff">Of course...I was only playing four classes spread out among the four archetypes when LU13 hit. What would I know about it?</span></p><p><span style="color: #00ff00">Warlocks were hit very, very hard by LU13.  We went from being able to solo almost anything to having a hard time finding a group.  It took KoS and the changes that came with it before we didn't have to beg to get in groups.  Why take a Warlock during the DoF days when a Wizard, Ranger, Assassin were far more damage or better yet 3 Rangers.</span> </p><p>LU24 - Crafting System Revamp. From when it was announced, the Chicken Littles of EQ2 were crying that the sky was falling. LU24 hit...and guess what? The sky didn't fall. In fact...crafted items got...BETTER!</p><p><span style="color: #ff6600">Wrong! In fact, crafted items were mostly unchanged by LU24 ~ the process of crafting was what got changed. Making it easier. Which resulted in more crafters. Which resulted in more crafted goods. Which were undesirable to begin with. So we're left with item progression with no desirability or requirement for crafted goods, but hey, at least you don't have to plan ahead anymore...</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600">Quests were introduced that required crafting, and high level at that. Encouraging more people to craft. Edging the business-person crafter out even further.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600">Then when that failed, because let's face it: some people are NEVER going to craft, they introduced a commission system which was broken on several levels (and remains broken in that *any* crafter can't make *anything* unless they've already made it before).</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600">So, in fact, nothing about crafting (barring writs and a very communicative developer) has truly improved since the removal of sub-combines.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600"><span style="color: #0000ff">No...the diversity in fact improved crafted items above their pre-LU24 state. Instead of lumping all the clothies, leather wearers, chain users, and walking dinner plates into one set of armor - armor was diversified to suit different classes (or ways of playing a class). This was a massive improvement in the crafted armor and crafting process.</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #00ff00">Not exactly.  Look at that changes to cobalt armor for instance.  The new cobalt armor is not near as good as the previous version of the armor.  I do like some of the changes, but then again I don't have to wear it.</span></p><p>GU36 - KOS Achievement Revamp. From when it was announced, the Chicken Lit...eh...you get the idea.</p><p><span style="color: #ff6600">Didn't you miss the other revamps? The ones that made small, unconventional groups unplayable...</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600"><span style="color: #0000ff">Really? People who are actually knowledgeable of their classes will always be able to duo or fulfill multiple roles in a group to make the small, unconventional groups playful.</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #00ff00">I agree, with enough knowledge and to some extent gear anybody <b>should</b> be able to make unconventional groups playable.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600">*although, I was a Warlock and a Templar. So I know firsthand what LU13 did.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600"><span style="color: #0000ff">And I was a Necromancer, Shadowknight, Assassin, and Defiler. So I too know firsthand what LU13 did.</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600"><span style="color: #00ff00">As you sarcastically said earlier "What would I know about it?"  Most of the classes you played didn't get nerfed or weren't nerf badly by LU13.  Warlocks, Templars, Berserkers and to some extent Guardians were all hit very hard.</span> </span></p></blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote>

[Moondance]

<p>You may not agree with the statement but a lot of other people sure seem to think the same way. If you think back with every expansion they brought down dmg and/or defenses before the expansion was released. So lack of comm or not as to the whys it sure seems to be the trend.</p>