Devs...why take away brawler double attack AA???

[Foretold]

<p>It makes no sense.  Why change the brawler tree STR 3 AA from double attack to a *minor* bump in CA damage?  Most of our damage comes from autoattack, not from CA damage.</p><p>Many other classes have double attack.  Monks and bruisers, the most agile of fighters, should be easily capable of a double attack.  </p><p>Why change this?  Please rethink.  Thanks <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Gasheron]

Oephelia@Najena wrote: <blockquote><p>It makes no sense.  Why change the brawler tree STR 3 AA from double attack to a *minor* bump in CA damage?  Most of our damage comes from autoattack, not from CA damage.</p><p>Many other classes have double attack.  Monks and bruisers, the most agile of fighters, should be easily capable of a double attack.  </p><p>Why change this?  Please rethink.  Thanks <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote><p> Quoted for emphasis</p><p>honestly, the only thing I was looking forward to when the devs announced that they were going to take out the weapon requirements was the chance to use double attack with any weapon. We're monks for crying out loud! We ICly focus on speed and agility, and the ability to hit our opponents fast and efficiently, not single hit deathblows. WHY DO WE NOT HAVE A NATURAL DOUBLEATTACK!? And to try and replace it with a CA dmg increase of such tiny % is just pathetic, and insulting. It literally feels like you devs are trying to insult us.</p><p>If we weren't meant to hit fast, then why are we given so much haste? Even in EQ1, Monks were the best at double attack, why are we one of the worst in this game, set in the same world?</p>

[Foretold]

<p>My melee spec'd warden has 40% double attack.  And 75% melee crit chance...</p><p>A warden...</p><p>The other fighter classes have double attack (and a lot of it)...  Scouts have double attacks...</p><p>We used to have double attack.  We SHOULD have double attack.  It makes the most sense as a brawler to have double attack.</p><p>Can we please get this changed back?  </p>

[Kainsei]

Agreed. We <u><b>need</b></u> something ! And not a 6% increase on CAs. Sorry if I'm bringing this up again but, when you compare our changes to warriors, we got <u><b>nerfed</b></u>, plain and simple ! Why ? When we are at the bottom of dpsing (at least we can beat pallies) and at the bottom of tanking (rogues can tank as well as us), why are we getting the nerf ? There's a dozen of threads explaining how much autoattack damage count for us. Self buffed, sure my autoattack is only 50% of my dps, but in raid it's much, much than that. So why did they gave us something minor like 6% CA increase ? I heard there is a dev who play a monk, I hope he'll make some changes before everything go live.

[Selioth]

I agree its not a good change for brawlers at all, 6% inc = nothing at all. Brawler classes over all should have a passave double attack, or even a casted double attack with a short duration would be better then 6% CA inc IMO best raid DPS spec is still 448 STA, WIS, and INT

[selch]

<p>Do you guys think 6% increase in CA is FOR MONKS?</p><p>It is for Bruisers whose CA'S are 1.5x damage compared to monks. I don't think they remember if there is a class named monk ever. Because "B"rawler is "B"ruiser.</p>

[Gasheron]

<cite>selch wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Do you guys think 6% increase in CA is FOR MONKS?</p><p>It is for Bruisers whose CA'S are 1.5x damage compared to monks. I don't think they remember if there is a class named monk ever. Because "B"rawler is "B"ruiser.</p></blockquote> Definitely. The changes to the STR line were for Bruisers, not Monks. However, we didn't get anything and these bruiser-designed changes are still quite weak. The only good thing either class got was the timer decrease to Crane Flock, everything else is so inconsequential that it won't matter. 30% any-weapon doubleattack would have been a decent start for improvement to both classes, and the devs decided to jip Monks entirely and give bruisers something they'd use if the numbers were higher.

[Kainsei]

Both brawlers class are gimped atm, and it'll be worse after gu37 if everything stays the same. At least bruisers have drag :/ .

[Ganeden]

<p>Being able to use weapons with 448 str was what I was hoping for. I thought that double attack % was going to be reduced probably but I NEVER thought the effect would be COMPLETELY changed, that's ridiculous. These AA changes certinally didn't help to fix us. 100dps extra doesn't mean crap because other fighters got a boost too.</p>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

I've checked every single Combat Art between Bruisers and Monks and the only difference between then is that Bruisers do twice as much damage but require twice as much power, and have twice as long recast. As long as a fight goes over 30 seconds, the monk using combat arts will have the same exact damage. There is only one extra Combat Art that Bruisers get, Kidney Punch, on a longer recast (90s)... instead, Monks get a Haste for health over time buff. So no this change doesn't favour Bruisers really more than Monks. One extra CA doesn't make that a "Bruiser change". I would far prefer a 50% double attack (works with twohander or BOTH dual wield weapons). This would be far more in line with what Warriors get... considering that they now have the EXACT SAME AUTOATTACK DAMAGE TABLE.

[Gasheron]

<p>Quick question...</p><p>Are they also removing the 20 DPS increase on the current Str 3? I haven't a char on the Test server to see the abilities myself, I can only read what is written on them.</p>

[Keshaan]

Kaisoku@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote>I've checked every single Combat Art between Bruisers and Monks and the only difference between then is that Bruisers do twice as much damage but require twice as much power, and have twice as long recast. As long as a fight goes over 30 seconds, the monk using combat arts will have the same exact damage. There is only one extra Combat Art that Bruisers get, Kidney Punch, on a longer recast (90s)... instead, Monks get a Haste for health over time buff. So no this change doesn't favour Bruisers really more than Monks. One extra CA doesn't make that a "Bruiser change". I would far prefer a 50% double attack (works with twohander or BOTH dual wield weapons). This would be far more in line with what Warriors get... considering that they now have the EXACT SAME AUTOATTACK DAMAGE TABLE. </blockquote>So basically monks are the lame version of bruisers that has to push twice as many buttons as bruisers to get the same result aye? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Besides the 30 seconds remark is not correct. You prolly mean 1 minute and your still disregarding casting timers.. Any monk who raids should know that casting timers play quite a role in how much dps you can get off. sorry for the OT...

[Nerill]

Add me to the list of unhappy Monks. Um, when I first read .75% I thought it was a mistake. I mean, less than 1% per level and we completely lost Double Attack ??? I give up. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[royalhardness]

<p>Well its just SOE's policy almost, to take everything away that the player base wants and then in 3-4months when ROK comes out they will give it back to us. Which at that time we will be like "cool we got double attack but with weapons now thanks SOE" that basically makes it appear that SOE is actually working on new and cool innovative arts when in reality there just rehashing the same old you know what.  O well enjoy what we don't have for 3-4 months then be gratefull for when we get it in November.</p><p>Love and Kisses </p>

[Timaarit]

Lanari@Storms wrote: <blockquote> I heard there is a dev who play a monk, I hope he'll make some changes before everything go live. </blockquote>It is a friend of a dev. And when you look at the changes, it is obvious that the monk in question does not raid.

[Rezzonico]

<p>the devs are dumbs, no more.</p><p>As it is funny not see any unarmed monks/bruisers that fight with free hands all around the world and attacking slower on double attack ( and haste for bruisers) against other classes. I don't need they increase my CA damage, as i do enough dps....i don't need Mitigation, as i tank by avoiadance....</p><p>And now, as they remove the risposte change, who will run to get the spell "RETRIBUTION OF STONE" in the other tree? With this low risposte chance? bha....</p><p>The reason as i explained in the other topic on bruiser section, i think is: they did this, only because after they improved the adornments the str line had no sense, as you cannot put them on weapons. And also a leagendary weapon with a "good" adornment could be better than the full STR aa line!.</p><p>And the "Chi" how awesome is it now? It's ridicolous, now the game will be with brawlers spammers of Chi!!! Instead of "various of brawlers" with about 4-5 different configurations, and that was funny, that was making you enjoining the game and the Martial arts path.....</p><p>ahahhaha </p><p>Whatever they say is just avoid the theme and walking around the words....</p><p>But no one here has enough courage to oppose and make hear his voice.</p>

[Flanikz]

<p>Ok, ya the double aa being lost is a bad move i agree.</p><p>But dont be so distrout here, they are removeing the negative effects of Chi.</p><p>Now think about this for a sec, if you raid your monk, chances are your in the scout group, which means you more than likely get a dirge.</p><p>So when dispacth and Caco go off, hit chi and crane flock.</p><p>So its not the steady DPS it used to be, low as it was, but its great burst damage.</p><p>In FTH, useing Bonetooth skewer and wurmslayer, not even close to being the best weapons in game, with Caco dispacth and Crane Flock alone i was parsing 1900 when used, seeing as they are lowering it to 3 min recast too, well, honestly, this is an upgrade from unarmed.</p><p>Not to mention crane flock is 100% double attack, with Monk haste already so high, 129 on mine, in raid its as high as 211 at times, with chi and Crane Flock, this puts Bruiser burst damage to shame.... for real.</p>

[mattmandude]

Well that's what we're saying, that the lowered recast timer on Crane Flock is about the only good change thus far. Despite the fact that Chi is much better now, it's still on a 15 minute recast, not to mention the fact that you have to waist AA points in the other useless crap the Str line has to offer now in order to get it =/ I've already logged in to test and did a /feedback, and I hope all of you that are upset will do it too. It's really simple, if you look in the "Test Server" folder in the EQII directory, you'll find directions on how to get to the test server (pretty easy), and you can do a /testcopy now to copy your character over to the test server (takes up to 24 hours, mine took about 16). With how the changes are now, I just see two AA lines that are pretty much useless (Str and Agility)... in my opinion it would make sense for them all to offer <b>something!</b>

[Rezzonico]

<p>I am half legendary equiped man....And in pvp i've beated people half fabled/most fabled equiped.</p><p>Why don't you think how much greater is the Chi now with the LU36 than before and how many people will ask for a nerf?</p><p>And as they remove risposte, who will run for "RETRIBUTION OF STONE" as will have low chance to proc?</p><p>Will be nice go all around norrath and watching all brawlers spammers of Chi, instead of before that there were about 4-5 people with different AA configurations...""""THIS!!! THIS MADE YOU ENJOY THE PATH OF THE MARTIALIST""""</p><p>They had to give some benefits to unarmed fight as an adorned weapons is better than the fist. Not to change an entire line. Fight unarmed it's cool and it's a definy skill. </p><p>Now if i'll meet a monk or an exiled bruiser i do not enjoy the fight anymore, as i already know what will use <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p><p>Ah, it's funny that an unarmed martialist, who fight hand to hand,  will no longer exists. Off course, armed fighters exists in this world, but don't see any unarmed will be funny. Just call the class with another name then. Beacuse Bruce Lee is turning on its grave.</p>

[Lai]

<p>Well, apparently all the crying has gotten the STR line restored to normal according to the update notes on June 18th.....</p><p>But seriously.... That line is still going to suck balls if they keep the unarmed requirement intact.... Fine SOE, leave it as it originally was, but LET US USE WEAPONS WITH IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</p>

[abdcefg]

<p>The STR line is a joke,  it has some great abilitys but making them unarmed makes them no good for anything but a lvl'ing alt.</p><p>The temporary changes that were made to the STR wern't by all means perfect but a step in the right direction at least.  Either remove the 'unarmed' requirement (as if :roll<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  or sort it out,  theres been plenty nice and reasonable suggestions from what i read.</p><p>More Importantly tho make it something i can actually consider using <i>without having to remove two bits of my equip</i> </p>

[Rezzonico]

<cite>Laita wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Well, apparently all the crying has gotten the STR line restored to normal according to the update notes on June 18th.....</p><p>But seriously.... That line is still going to suck balls if they keep the unarmed requirement intact.... Fine SOE, leave it as it originally was, but LET US USE WEAPONS WITH IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</p></blockquote><p> If they allow to run weapons in that line everyone will run for it with no doubt. As it the greatest dps line if isn't for unarmed fights.</p><p>So the only way to balance it is to run for unarmed, as there are other 4 lines where you can use weapons!</p><p>People, instead of complay about unarmed fight that sucks and asking for use weapons, why don't you ask for something that make unarmed fight on AA greater than now? so we can compare it with adorned fabled weapons.... </p><p>If we make all lines using weapons we don't have to call the classes "Bruisers or Monks" anymore....but "Pikemens, Adventurer" or something else.</p><p>And i don't see any difficulty on fighting, as i made a my own AA configuration instead of many bruisers writes. And i fight very well, no problems. If there's a thing i comply for, is that after they put adornments we are no more compared to most fabled weapons. THEN I REPEAT: I don't find any difficulty on thinking to make unarmed fight better!</p><p>Let be unarmed fight on str line a defining skill of martial arts users!</p>

[Timaarit]

<cite>Rezzonico wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Laita wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Well, apparently all the crying has gotten the STR line restored to normal according to the update notes on June 18th.....</p><p>But seriously.... That line is still going to suck balls if they keep the unarmed requirement intact.... Fine SOE, leave it as it originally was, but LET US USE WEAPONS WITH IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</p></blockquote><p> If they allow to run weapons in that line everyone will run for it with no doubt. As it the greatest dps line if isn't for unarmed fights.</p><p>So the only way to balance it is to run for unarmed, as there are other 4 lines where you can use weapons!</p></blockquote>So? Show me a warrior or rogue that hasn't picked their own DA line for DPS purposes. So who cares about the balance between the AA lines, this is an issue about class viability in the end game.

[Rezzonico]

<p>One more thing.....Adding weapons or not nothing will change....This will not help to make bruiser best in raid and groups.</p><p>Then thinking something better <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Rezzonico]

<cite>Timaarit wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rezzonico wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Laita wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Well, apparently all the crying has gotten the STR line restored to normal according to the update notes on June 18th.....</p><p>But seriously.... That line is still going to suck balls if they keep the unarmed requirement intact.... Fine SOE, leave it as it originally was, but LET US USE WEAPONS WITH IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</p></blockquote><p> If they allow to run weapons in that line everyone will run for it with no doubt. As it the greatest dps line if isn't for unarmed fights.</p><p>So the only way to balance it is to run for unarmed, as there are other 4 lines where you can use weapons!</p></blockquote>So? Show me a warrior or rogue that hasn't picked their own DA line for DPS purposes. So who cares about the balance between the AA lines, this is an issue about class viability in the end game. </blockquote><p> If you look carefully each line of Bruiser AA, you'll see that every one has specific roles.</p><p>Look them each one one.... one by one and analize only a single line....</p><p>-You'll see that all the STR line, increased at the maxium levels will bring you great dps, that you can make it explode over the 100% of your sthrengts by using Chi....but to do not make it too lamer, they did unarmed fight....One vs One awesome nothing beat the brawler.</p><p>- Agi Line....it's difficult analyze it, as it isn't a line that increase dps but attacking faster on CA, plus a dual wield attack, and helping save a mate by FD, it's helpful in group</p><p>-STA line gives great mobility  with mantis leap  and moderate dps to the brawler, also decreasing target stamina to kill enemy faster. This Line allow you great mobility in the battlefield.</p><p>-WIS line does not focus on attack one single target and doing dps, but attacking on multiple targets over time</p><p>-INT line have is the greatest defensive line as the 4 step has parry 2.1 (watching as 70), but also have 2 useful AA that helps the caster to do that few attacks crits and makes target looking direction of caster.</p><p>Making combinations of these lines makes different effects on fighting style. But asking for weapons on a line already strong but that needs some fix in its caracteristics it sounds like... a Bringand complains of the line of stamina as he wants dual wield weapons to make it sure a dps line! All achievments lines have advantages and disadvantages, we can't pretend to have "all advantages"</p>