HateBuff on next LU - is it Nerf or not ??

[Verrie77]

<p>I just read this on testupdate</p><p><span style="color: #66ffff">Coercer</span></p><ul><li><span style="color: #66ffff">Smirking Demeanor: Reduced hate increase component, but added a hate transfer component. This allows it to stack better with the Dirge's hate increase buff.</span></li></ul><p>Is that a Nerf or an upgrade to it? Doesnt look to good in my eyes, but im willing to change my mind.</p>

[Squigglle]

well it could be good and bad. if you dont dps much in the raid/group its bad, but if you do then it seems to be good

[Morthore]

<p>well I guess that ends the "Who is better for the MT group, a Dirge or Coercer" debate</p><p>On the surface this sounds really really bad</p>

[JackAll]

Might be good soloing with charm

[Nodok]

Someone on coercer chat last night said it was reduced to 17% hate gain and a 17% hate transfer added, at m1.  Can anyone verify this? 

[Obsidiann]

<cite>Nodok wrote:</cite><blockquote>Someone on coercer chat last night said it was reduced to 17% hate gain and a 17% hate transfer added, at m1.  Can anyone verify this?  </blockquote> If it's only 17% transfer how on earth is that going to do any good?

[redde]

17% hate transfer + 17% hate gain is no where near as good as it was before. They have *slightly* boosted the hate decrese in the STA line, as well as the heal crit chance %.

[tracheaspider]

<p>Aggro buffs as they currently stand on Test server.  (6/13)</p><p><img src="http://home.comcast.net/~madiarin/aggrobuffs.jpg" border="0"></p>

[Nodok]

Thanks for the buff pics Trach. 

[redde]

ouch. Looks like coercers need to start DPSing

[Controlor]

<p>Hmmmm so with dirge hate gain increase by 36% it makes 1 pt of dmg done by the tank = 1.36 hate gained to the tank. Where as Coercers are 1 pt of dmg done by tank = 1.17 hate gain b tank, AND 1 pt of dmg done by coercer = .17 hate gain by tank while only being .83 hate to the coercer. SO if the coercer consistantly out dpses the tank THAN this would generate more agro to the tank. I have read a few threads here on coercer forums about your dps and how it is kinda spiky. This would allow you to do spike dmg and give some to the tank. Compare your dps to a dirge and yours should be MUCH higher. Basicaly tho if the coercer is going to be in the MT group they HAVE to now consistantly out dps the tank. Otherwise dirge is better.</p><p> <EDIT>If this is the case here is a possible example of what could happen.</p><p>Tank does 800 dps. Coercer does 1k dps.</p><p>W/ Dirge: 800*1.36 = 1088 hate/second</p><p>W/ Coercer: (800*1.17) + (1000*.17) = 1116 hate/second.</p><p>In this example the coercer would provide greater benefit to the tanks hate gain than the dirge.</p><p>IF the coercer did only 900 dps than (800*1.17) + (900*.17) = 1089 hate/second, here dirge or coercer doesnt matter which is in group for hate.</p><p>IF the coercer did less than the 900 dps tho the better slot would be with the dirge in group. SO start a dpsing</p>

[redde]

<cite>Controlor wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Hmmmm so with dirge hate gain increase by 36% it makes 1 pt of dmg done by the tank = 1.36 hate gained to the tank. Where as Coercers are 1 pt of dmg done by tank = 1.17 hate gain b tank, AND 1 pt of dmg done by coercer = .17 hate gain by tank while only being .83 hate to the coercer. SO if the coercer consistantly out dpses the tank THAN this would generate more agro to the tank. I have read a few threads here on coercer forums about your dps and how it is kinda spiky. This would allow you to do spike dmg and give some to the tank. Compare your dps to a dirge and yours should be MUCH higher. Basicaly tho if the coercer is going to be in the MT group they HAVE to now consistantly out dps the tank. Otherwise dirge is better.</p><p> <EDIT>If this is the case here is a possible example of what could happen.</p><p>Tank does 800 dps. Coercer does 1k dps.</p><p>W/ Dirge: 800*1.36 = 1088 hate/second</p><p>W/ Coercer: (800*1.17) + (1000*.17) = 1116 hate/second.</p><p>In this example the coercer would provide greater benefit to the tanks hate gain than the dirge.</p><p>IF the coercer did only 900 dps than (800*1.17) + (900*.17) = 1089 hate/second, here dirge or coercer doesnt matter which is in group for hate.</p><p>IF the coercer did less than the 900 dps tho the better slot would be with the dirge in group. SO start a dpsing</p></blockquote> You're making some large assumptions here with regards to hate. You're completely ignoring the fact that tanks have taunts. We don't know how much hate a taunt generates relative to damage, but it will certainly add to the tank's hate. I would expect taunt adds the equivalent of AT LEAST 500 DPS. In which case having the dirge is pretty much always the better option there. MT group doesn't only have to have aggro considerations though. Abilities like coercive healing and the heal crit and deaggro from the stamina AA line should be taken into account too. Having a mystic warding for 1.3 times what they normally ward for is not something to be overlooked.

[Andu]

<p>There are two other things to consider as well:</p><p>a) In the patch notes Lockeye has pretty much confirmed there was and still is a cap on hate buffs. The rumor before was that it was around 50%, the fact that the Dirge and Coercer buffs now conveniently add up to around that mark seems to back it up. If thats the case, all those people that sweared by stacking Dirge + Coercer were miles off because their buffs didnt actually stack and one of them was mostly wasted.</p><p>So in those terms I'm happy with the new arrangement - at least we now know for certain that they do stack up properly.</p><p>b) I'm only guessing but I think the new hate buff on our pets will be better. Adding 17% of our agro to the pet, when combined with link, should keep mobs on the pet for longer (except for those rare occassions you get a really great pet that did enough damage to hold agro). Time will tell though.</p>

[Tandy]

<p>I started my coercer cause I liked the idea of being support for the MT group...Having just now gotten close to 70 on it and done a few raids I was very happy with doing minimal DPS and having nice support.</p><p>With the hate buff change....what raid would use a coercer over a dirge? Raid leaders arent gonna look at heal crits and deaggro...most times deaggro for rest of MT group is useless and dirges have heal crits too.</p><p>Coercers that DO DPS arent gonna be specced for the support ANYWAY so its now a giant catch-22.  This stupid idiotic hate buff nerf will most likely push support coercers to DPS and make the support style dead aside from groups.</p><p>Now I know this is about raiding and not everyone raids...but seriously you have to balance the game around all styles of playing, and raiding support coercers are very rare these days already.</p><p> At the least they should just make dirge and coercer hate buffs the same...25% hate gain that way they WOULD stack at 50% and then whatever dev has the bug in his rear to make this work is happy...and raid leaders have a choice to use either dirge or coercer. with dirges being over 30% and coercer at 17% its just plain stupid.</p>

[Rumbler]

<p>It actually sounds really good to me. We run with dirge and coercer in our mt group for double hate and power regen. Previously some of the hate was being lost due to the cap. Now instead of wasting some of our buff we will get to transfer some of our agro the the MT.</p><p>If our stuns, dazes, mez and debuffs count in the hate transfer as well as our dps, this will be fantastic. The stuns create a lot of hate.</p><p>I am looking forward to seeing this implemented.</p>

[Tandy]

<p>with the way stuns dazes and stuff work on epics...they cant be cast very often as is....so any hate from them would be very minor in the grand scheme of things.</p><p>And I know there are those guilds that use both in MT group...but 99.9% of them DONT use both...so this change basically removes the use of a coecer if  you only have one spot  in MT group. </p><p>I still say make the buffs exactly the same so if you use both...great....if you use 1 you can use the best for the situation or actually have a choice instead of being stuck with this crap where a coercer would never be used over a dirge if you have one spot only for them.</p>

[Rumbler]

<p>I am suprised to hear other guilds don't run with both. I don't see myself ever getting in the MT group over a dirge with proper AA lines even before these changes.</p><p>I am curious what class you put in over the dirge or coercer and why you would put a coercer in over a dirge currently? I am not trying to have a go at you, I just want the info so I can cosider getting myself in a group where I can do a little more dps.</p>

[Lleinen]

<p>Dirge + Coercer is good because the insane mana regen and the very good hate</p><p>I've never really had a problem with aggro with our tank, on some fights we get all 3 in the group and only use a templar and shaman but for the most part its coercer and dirge all the time with a brig/swash/warden being swapped in and out.</p><p>Im happy about the chronomancer change and this one, because if there IS a cap this will cement the coercer in MT group for hate buffs. but honestly...</p><p>time will tell, 17% seems really really low</p>

[redde]

17% down from 49% <b>is</b> really, really low. 17% + 17% aggro xfer, <b>assuming</b> we are generating the same hate as the tank (including DPS and taunts), would take it up to 34%. To get anywhere near the same aggro output as the tank, a coercer would have to be non-stop casting - this uses power and low power reduces the utility that mana flow and channel bring the raid group. Even with constant casting I still think it would be hard to generate the same aggro as the MT. The dirge is sitting on 36% without doing anything at all. Coercers don't come close.

[redde]

On a positive - this looks good: Stamina 5 - Sever Empathy: Renamed Sever Hate: Now it wipes a few hate positions of hatred that target ally's enemy has towards them. <b>Can be used on raid allies. </b>Target through the mob and that looks good to me.

[Controlor]

Well i think that a lot of guilds will start to run with a dirge + coercer mix now. You have to take into consideration to the other hate buffs. The SCOUT hate transfers are being reduced as well. Making it harder for the tank to get agro from them. So it seems to get equal agro now you need Dirge + Coercer + Swashy/Assassin (either one). VS Dirge/coercer + swashy/assassin. I personally like this it makes the encounters a bit more chalanging with agro. There arnt to many mem blur mobs so agro wasnt a big deal if the tank and scout put out the dps. Now you have to use 3 classes and balance them together to hold it. If a coercer is just a buff bot the MT can loose more hate under the new system. This makes it so that they arnt just buff bots (which some have been). Now if only they could make troub / dirge less of a buff botting scout it would be fun again.

[JackAll]

<p>Much to my surprice I agree with this change.</p><p>Every agro buff in the game is getting nerfed so ofcause so is ours. I agree that the dirge buff might be better than ours but I wanna try it out before I yell murder.</p><p>I love the AA changes pure and simple. Sever hate sounds way over powered though. What raid coercer isnt gonna take that?</p><p>/Zaleo</p>

[tracheaspider]

<cite>JackAll wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>(snip)</p><p>I love the AA changes pure and simple. Sever hate sounds way over powered though. What raid coercer isnt gonna take that?</p><p>/Zaleo</p></blockquote><p> It drops hate position by... two.  It's like half of a Rescue.  I don't see how that's especially overpowered and it has limited use.  You have to be very careful in targeting so you don't drop the tank back down if they pick up aggro just as you cast (already a problem with Touch of Empathy).  And if the tank lost aggro due to memwipe or getting killed, it's more likely to bounce aggro to someone else squishable.  Not to mention, you have to drop 4 points in Empathic Soothing (which they "improved" by a whopping 0.1% per rank, oooh, whoopie!) to get it.</p><p>You could use it proactively on people about to drop mega-hitters, but since the spell is limited to single mobs and the biggest problems come from mega hits landing on multiple mobs, the potential still fails to excite me.</p><p>And anyways, if hate becomes a real problem, what MT raid coercer (assuming there are any left) isn't going to spec agi/int completely so they can stand a chance of generating enough aggro to keep everyone's butts covered?  (And please don't tell me a non-MT coercer would ever spec sta.)</p>

[Wrapye]

Imagine a situation, and I see this often enough, where the MT gets hit with an uncurable stun for 10-15 seconds.  Which class is generating more hate on the MT, allowing him/her to keep aggro? The dirge, who is boosting the tank's hate by 36%, or the coercer, who is boosting the tank's hate by 17% and giving the tank 17% of his/her hate? Guards have a taunt and an attack that can be used while stunned, but that's not going to be generating that much hate.  Hate transfer is going to win the day there over hate add. The cap on hate add and hate transfer are each 50%.  Right now having a dirge and a coercer in the MT group is wasting 40% hate add. My worry is that the new paradigm will be dirge + swash/assassin for the MT group, as that gives 36% hate add and 16% hate transfer from a class that can put out a lot more dps than coercers can.

[Encantador]

<p>I cannot see many MT group coercers speccing to INT. Channel is far to valuable to consider a build where you cannot use it when you need it most. AGI/STA will probably be favourite though I can see AGI/WIS or even AGI/(STA+WIS).</p><p>Non-MT group coercer ? shrug not sure there will be such a thing ... why would people want a DPS boost when they are struggling to not take aggro? Coercer DPS ? In general too low to be bothered with and too spikey. Perhaps they will be used for aggro management and will go STA/INT ?</p><p>Don't you all still find the attempt to make STR attractive sick? Our epic is a pound to a penny going to be a 2 handed staff. So what do they boost ? piercing and NON-2 handed. The only thing that makes this vaguely humourous is that no coercer will touch that line with a barge pole anyway.</p>

[Controlor]

<cite>Encantador wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>(cut)</p><p>Don't you all still find the attempt to make STR attractive sick? Our epic is a pound to a penny going to be a 2 handed staff. So what do they boost ? piercing and NON-2 handed. The only thing that makes this vaguely humourous is that no coercer will touch that line with a barge pole anyway.</p></blockquote>Actually. Although i am not on the PVP server. I often see enchanters (both illy and coercer more so illy however) who choose to put at least SOME points into str line. Some even go all the way down it for the reflects. As a Caster having a CA is helpful in PVP specially since a lot of it is close combat. Its fast casting and does decent dmg.

[Blumfield]

<p>IMO, this is an awesome change.  Assuming there was indeed a passive hate buff cap (as seems to have been confirmed) this strengthens any raid where there's a dirge in the MT group.  Coercers will be able to max out the passive hate and add additional active hate, which causes aggregate hate gain to increase substantially.  Swashies and assassins in the MT group are no longer necessary in 99% of raid encounters.</p><p>Until this change goes live, however, there should almost never be a coercer+dirge in the MT group--I'll be taking myself out immediately.  Hello, troubador buffs!  </p><p>Also, this change will make MT group coercer dps a much higher priority.  It may require a change in play style.  On difficult encounters previous to this change, power management was the #1 priority--now, dps and power management will be equally important.</p><p>I know I've got quite a few aggro-reducing adorns and items that are going to need to be replaced w/dps ones, but nevertheless, that's a small price to pay for increasing overall coercer effectiveness.</p><p>As I see it, this change has no real downside.  It's only unfortunate that we didn't know about the cap on passive hate buffs sooner.</p>Schmutzen of Vox

[Korpo]

<cite>Blumfield wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>As I see it, this change has no real downside.  It's only unfortunate that we didn't know about the cap on passive hate buffs sooner.</p></blockquote>I still have yet to see a post from a guy with a red name talking about a cap on hate gain. <ul><li>Smirking Demeanor: Reduced hate increase component, but added a hate transfer component. <span style="color: #990000">This allows it to stack better with the Dirge's hate increase buff.</span></li></ul>People read this as proof that there is/was a cap? That's a huuuuuuuuge stretch.

[Blumfield]

<p>It seems conclusive that the dirge buff and coercer buff weren't stacking to their full percentage before.  If they needed to "stack better," then there had to be *some* sort of cap.</p><p>It'd be nice to get something concrete out of the devs on this.  Until that time, I think it's safe to assume there's a cap.  Whether it's 50%, as others have argued, or some other % is an open question.</p><p>Incidentally, people have been talking about coercer versus dirge in the MT group--seems to me dirges have always had the edge in this regard, even before knowledge of the hate buff cap.  They'll continue to have that edge.  The real question, post-update, will be:  why not have both Dirge and Coercer?   Druid/Cleric/Shaman/Coercer/Dirge/Tank seems like a no-brainer now, if I'm not terribly mistaken.</p>

[Lleinen]

<cite>Blumfield wrote:</cite><blockquote>Also, this change will make MT group coercer dps a much higher priority.  It may require a change in play style.  On difficult encounters previous to this change, power management was the #1 priority--now, dps and power management will be equally important. </blockquote>Oi Vay...I've been doing this for years.  Been spec'd INT/AGI forever with no problems, kept our group full up for a 36minute fight, didnt even come close to going oom, personally I cant wait for this change but I would still like to know if there is an actual cap (and what it is, currently, on live)

[xpraetorianx]

All of you "coercers" who say this is bad, dont know how to play your class... ill say it right now.  You dont.  This is probably the best thing "THINKING" wise SOE has done for coercers. Coercers are capable of some of the HIGHEST NUKES in game without H.O. help... not only can a Coercer easily attain 1k+ dps, ALONG with spells that generate more hate... but that spell also transfers our hate, effectively giving MORE hate to the TANK than it did previously...17% is still about half than what it does right now, and THAT only affects the tanks hate gain... but now with transferring OUR hate, I can easily see that hate gain being comparable to about 55% - 60% to Enraging Demeanor right now. Also, we can De-hate people within the raid 2 hate positions, our offhand restricitions are being removed....what more can you want? In my opinion, the coercers complaining are the coercers who like to sit in a group and spam their mana regen spells with a thumb up their butt.   Learn how to play your class and maybe you'll be able to be usefull to your raid groups again... CAN I GET AN AMEN hahah.

[madha]

<p>The problem is sometimes the mob will die and none of my reactive attacks will have proced.  Auspex will still be at 5 charges after a 30 to 45 second fight, thus making one of our biggest dps have 0 agro.. Now group of mobs sonic boom and our group Ae's can rock.  Now If a mob is immune to mez and i try to cast mez will the immune generate agro like a mez resist? If so thats about 800 points of agro off the bat in one cast that u can cast while stun.  you have all seen it 2 or 3 mezz resists and the tank has to rescue the mob of you.  Will it be that kind of hate transfer or just mean dmg numbers will transfer casue if it's just dmg numbers then we might be borked.  But if it works like pally amend just reverse then me might have a very powerful ability.  Amends takes all agro even self mana feeds.  I have empathic soothing so ill have to drop it from myself and remove blink from my hotbar. </p><p>And I've been trying to learn how to DPS as a coercer and cant find any good info what spell cast order do high dps coercers use.. My wizzard buddies tell me their spell cast order can change their dps by a few 100 points.</p>

[Wrapye]

Another potential source of hate generation is something that until now (well, since LU13) has been nigh useless:  power drains.  I know they have use on PvP, but on PvE they do essentially nothing.  Now at least they will add some hate to the mix, and seeing as we have four spell lines with power drain as a component, there is potential for generating pretty continuous hate from using them. About empathic soothing:  Yeah, that one concerns me as well.  It will depend on which is calculated first, the hate transfer or the hate reduction.  If it is the hate transfer, we are good.  If the hate reduction then it is counterproductive.

[Ibunubi]

<p>Go look at EQ2 Flames in the coercer forum. We've already had parse threads started, and there's also a thread about DPS casting order.</p><p>I think this change is good because now it frees up a concentration slot because for big fights or zone clearing where I can DPS (Emerald Halls, Freethinkers). No more having to cast Harmonious Link on myself, so now I can cast that buff, or another buff elsewhere... At least while I'm in the MT group. Gorging Thoughts also tends to get me instant aggro when mobs spawn because of the "healing" effect. So that situation gets some help with this change.</p><p>Though, I don't think we'll be so hot in off-tank groups.</p>

[Korpo]

<cite>Blumfield wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>It seems conclusive that the dirge buff and coercer buff weren't stacking to their full percentage before.  If they needed to "stack better," then there had to be *some* sort of cap.</p><p>It'd be nice to get something concrete out of the devs on this.  Until that time, I think it's safe to assume there's a cap.  Whether it's 50%, as others have argued, or some other % is an open question.</p></blockquote> Not really, you're putting words in the dev's mouth based on how you interpreted what he said. There's no cap on haste (the number, not the actual effect), and yet haste buffs don't stack at all. Making haste buffs stack would make them "stack better" and yet there would still be no cap. Making two mage INT buffs stack would make them "stack better", and yet there is no cap on INT. Making two priest MIT buffs stack would make them "stack better', and yet there is no cap on MIT.<span style="color: #3333ff"></span>

[Blumfield]

<p>I don't know that quibbling about the interpretation of a few sentences is going to be fruitful for anyone, but, meh, I have nothing better to do.</p><p>Hence:  regardless of whether there was an actual cap, there was an effective cap if passive hate buffs never stacked.  If passive hate buffs never stacked, then the effective cap would have been equal to the highest hate-buff percentage in the game, that is to say, 49% (unless some classes have self-buffs that go higher.)  The distinction between a real cap of 50% and an effective cap of 49% would be fairly meaningless.</p><p>Moreover, if we assume whoever made the statement knew what he was talking about, there is only one logical inference to make.   He did not say, "<i>changed coercer hate buff to be part buff part transfer.  Also/and/additionally, we made it stack better with dirge hate buffs</i>."  Rather, he said:</p><li><i>Smirking Demeanor: Reduced hate increase component, but added a hate transfer component. This allows it to stack better with the Dirge's hate increase buff.</i></li><p>He indicates that the lowering of the passive buff % and the addition of hate transfer <i>results directly</i> in its stacking better with the dirge's passive buff.    Could it be that the new hate transfer stacks, but the passive part doesn't--because two passive hate buffs never stack?  It's theoretically possible, but highly unlikely.  There would be no reason to lower the Dirge's hate % in the LU if that were the case.  </p><p>The new dirge passive % is 36%.  36% + our new 17% = 53%.  Awfully close to the 50% estimated cap that people have been throwing around, eh?  Seems unlikely that that's a coincidence.  Still, I'll concede that it's not impossible.</p><p>If your theory is true, tanks are going to have a very difficult time holding raid aggro after the LU.  It basically will mean the new effective passive hatebuff cap will be 36%.  Our 17% hate transfer will not even approach making up the difference.</p><p>your pal,</p>Schmutzen

[Korpo]

<cite>Blumfield wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I don't know that quibbling about the interpretation of a few sentences is going to be fruitful for anyone, but, meh, I have nothing better to do.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000">Heh, me neither. I'm at work and my boss is out of town. Also: I don't need a nap.</span> </p><p>...</p><p>Moreover, if we assume whoever made the statement <b>knew what he was talking about</b>, there is only one logical inference to make.   He did not say, "<i>changed coercer hate buff to be part buff part transfer.  Also/and/additionally, we made it stack better with dirge hate buffs</i>."  Rather, he said:</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000">Now <b>that</b> is the assumption of the year <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. My assertion is just that the dev doesn't <u>say</u> there was a cap, or imply that there was a cap, or anything of the sort. He just says that it will now stack better. It could have been stacking poorly before for any number of reasons: a cap, a limit of one hate buff per person, diminishing returns, who knows? The devs have gone out of their way in the past to explain stacking, caps, etc., but have never done so for hate other than the "one point of damage = one point of hate, one point of heal is less than that" post.</span> </p><li><i>Smirking Demeanor: Reduced hate increase component, but added a hate transfer component. This allows it to stack better with the Dirge's hate increase buff.</i></li><p>He indicates that the lowering of the passive buff % and the addition of hate transfer <i>results directly</i> in its stacking better with the dirge's passive buff.    Could it be that the new hate transfer stacks, but the passive part doesn't--because two passive hate buffs never stack?  It's theoretically possible, but highly unlikely.  There would be no reason to lower the Dirge's hate % in the LU if that were the case.</p><span style="color: #ff0000">There's a lot of precedent for buffs not stacking for no real reason: MIT and INT and such, as I pointed out. They reduced the dirge hate buff, and in the coercer, and the swash transfer, and the assn transfer. It seems to me that they're trying to make agro harder to come by. Reducing the dirge hate buff would be consistent with that goal.</span> <p>The new dirge passive % is 36%.  36% + our new 17% = 53%.  Awfully close to the 50% estimated cap that people have been throwing around, eh?  Seems unlikely that that's a coincidence.  Still, I'll concede that it's not impossible.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000">Add up two numbers about midway between 0 and 50, and you'll get something close to 50 <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</span> </p><p>If your theory is true, tanks are going to have a very difficult time holding raid aggro after the LU.  It basically will mean the new effective passive hatebuff cap will be 36%.  Our 17% hate transfer will not even approach making up the difference.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000">I think that's the goal, making things harder.</span> </p></blockquote>I don't have anything to put here, so here's a picture of a cat. <img src="http://www.dailykitten.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/1180176538dsc00508.jpg" border="0">

[xpraetorianx]

<cite>madhatr wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The problem is sometimes the mob will die and none of my reactive attacks will have proced.  Auspex will still be at 5 charges after a 30 to 45 second fight, thus making one of our biggest dps have 0 agro.. Now group of mobs sonic boom and our group Ae's can rock.  Now If a mob is immune to mez and i try to cast mez will the immune generate agro like a mez resist? If so thats about 800 points of agro off the bat in one cast that u can cast while stun.  you have all seen it 2 or 3 mezz resists and the tank has to rescue the mob of you.  Will it be that kind of hate transfer or just mean dmg numbers will transfer casue if it's just dmg numbers then we might be borked.  But if it works like pally amend just reverse then me might have a very powerful ability.  Amends takes all agro even self mana feeds.  I have empathic soothing so ill have to drop it from myself and remove blink from my hotbar. </p><p>And I've been trying to learn how to DPS as a coercer and cant find any good info what spell cast order do high dps coercers use.. My wizzard buddies tell me their spell cast order can change their dps by a few 100 points.</p></blockquote>A coercer should be in there Melee'ing.  You will notice that you will proc your DAMAGE alot.  The best way to get Dpsing for a coercer, is keep your DOTs going.  Off the bat, cast your 3 main mental debuffs - Dispel Mental if you have the AA - then load the mob up with the 3 reactive spells.  Pay attention to the timers, when one is about to expire get it back on there.  Especially the DOTS.  After the Reactives are loaded up, start with your larger spells, Ego and Sonic Boom, by this time you should be able to recast your DOTs.  Keep it up and you will notice your DPS going higher and higher.  Especially with a Cataclysmic Mind completely Maxed out to 500% you will see your coercer hit some mobs for over 200,000 just check out my coercer ranks and you will see.  These changes they are making to the coercers, are seriously going be a HUGE benefit to a MT or Offtank group, and with our Abilities to ENHANCE healing spells, puts the coercer further among the leaders of the best all around classes in the game that can DO ANYTHING.  DPS, Support, Control.. ect.  You guys should be excited.

[slippery]

Fact - There is a cap of 50% Hate Generation Bonus (and a seperate 50% cap for hate transfers) Fact - Warrior with a Dirge at 36%, 10% from AA, 5% from Avatar Bracelet = Cap Fact - Assassins and Swashbucklers are still going to transfer more agro with the agro transfer than we are

[Jinnchanter]

Assassins and Swashbucklers  don't be often in mt group, or will low their dps. They are dpser , not buffer. 

[slippery]

And that is why all the top raiding guilds have been going 3 healers, tank, dirge, [Removed for Content]/swash for so long now. heh

[xpraetorianx]

Disagree

[thebunny]

Jinnchanter@Najena wrote: <blockquote>Assassins and Swashbucklers  don't be often in mt group, or will low their dps. They are dpser , not buffer. </blockquote>Not true.  Almost every raid I've been on recently has had either an assassin or a swashie in the MT group for hate transfer, and sometimes both.  The only times this hasn't been the case is when we didn't have an assassin or a swashie in the raid.

[Blumfield]

<p>Hum... </p><p>Deson wrote: </p><blockquote>You owe Lockeye some cookies, he answered it in a PM posted on the eq2flames site coercer boards- Hate add cap and hate transfer caps are each 50%.</blockquote><p>http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=367188</p><p> He's not getting retroactive cookies, legit or not... </p>

[AziBam]

Winkles...I laughed and laughed at your last post.  The cat thing killed me.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> . . Sharpcharm, I don't necessarily disagree with your dps suggestions in terms of spell casting order however us hitting the mobs melee won't make our reactives trigger more.  Ours aren't like the illusionist versions.  Our reactives get cast on the mob and when the mob successfully hits someone else it takes damage.  Coercer casts Auspex on werewolf, werewolf hits tank, werewolf takes damage.  We could annoy it to death with our melee weapon and auspex, scourge, or mind wouldn't have triggered a single time unless it actually hit us back or hit someone else in the group/raid.  The higher the avoidance of our tanks (in other words, the more successful the tank is at doing one part of their job) the fewer times we will have our damage proc.  I just think it's a goofy mechanic.  It's even worse for grouping or solo where our stuns are so much more effective.  How about an AA that makes it have a high chance of a double proc each hit?  We just lose SO much dps because our spells just wear off.  That way fewer hits would be needed to actually use up the potential procs.  . . Sorry about getting a bit off topic.  The reduced hate  % is a huge drop.  Transfer is good but they brought the base hate gain down a ton.  With it coming down that low I'd like to see them give us a boost to Aggression skill along with the hate increase and transfer.  At least it would help decrease taunt resists in that case. 

[JackAll]

<p>Im also in melee on all the mobs where its posible. Its just slack not to be in there.</p><p>I use the staff off the boss lady in nizara most of the time. Long delay and hits at 500-1000 a pop.</p><p>Also being in melee does actualy help with reactives because you are sure to get hit from time to time <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Flipmode]

<cite>JackAll wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Im also in melee on all the mobs where its posible. Its just slack not to be in there.</p><p>I use the staff off the boss lady in nizara most of the time. Long delay and hits at 500-1000 a pop.</p><p>Also being in melee does actualy help with reactives because you are sure to get hit from time to time <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote> Right but as the previous poster stated, our reacives dont proc when we hot the mob.  Sharpcharm is wrong on that point.

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

The most you can hope for is to have a riposte happen and smack you one, forcing the reactive to go off. Which is highly dangerous... some mobs melee for tons, and a riposte could be devastating if done right after an AE, or back to back... Here's the thing... Aggro transfers and hate gains were reduced <i>across the board</i>. We were not the only ones who were hit with a reduction. Some classes now have HALF the deaggro or transfers they had before. Ours was reduced to 17% at master, yeah.. and 17% transfer. If our aggro can match the tank's DPS and taunt aggro (which, by the way, taunting doesn't really add THAT much per second hate), then we are still at ~34%. If we spike higher, even better... and spike we do. The only thing that really sucks is that we give no aggression bonus like dirges do, so ours is utterly about actual hate increases, not facilitating hate generation for the tank. Last thing you need is for Rescue to be resisted. I'd say that in easy epic situations, where our DPS is crap, our hate generation has taken the largest hit. But then, against easy epics, you probably don't need the full hate generation anyways. And considering how it's been confirmed to have worked.. if we were stacked with a Dirge most of our current hate generation was ignored anyways. I just really hope they fix Perpetuality so that it doesn't require an offhand to use. Because if I HAVE to DPS now to do my primary job (give hate), then I better not have conflicting bonuses in that line (other parts had it removed and thus reduced in effectiveness due to that fact).

[slippery]

Perpetuality doesn't require an empty offhand to use. Spike dps is not reliable for agro transfer to help a tank hold agro, you want good consistent dps which is something Coercers lack.

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

Has it changed on Test since this post? <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=366814" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=366814</a> Because at the moment it's Chronosiphoning that was changed to no offhand, and REDUCED in cast speed buffing because of it. Yet Perpetuality still requires offhand empty, so in the end you are sitting with nothing in your offhand anyways. End result is a nerf in overall speed due to loss from Chronosiphoning. I'm really hoping it's an oversight, but the post on the test forum is dropping off the page with no real view time or response yet... blah. And the track record for speed of fixing enchanter issues hasn't been the greatest lately. As for Spike Damage, most damage is done right at the beginning of the pull.. before everyone gets their debuffs in. Spiking at the start will give the MT a headstart in aggro... just need to start laying down DPS a little before the DPS call, so our procs go off.

[ziczac]

As posted in testforum... <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=366881" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=366881</a> Nerf us, but add a T7 (lvl 66) and T8 (lvl 80) version of Deamenor line to the loot tables And maybe a little overlook on reactive Damage of our main "DPS" Lines <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Wrapye]

<cite>ziczac wrote:</cite><blockquote>As posted in testforum... <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=366881" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=366881</a> Nerf us, but add a T7 (lvl 66) and T8 (lvl 80) version of Deamenor line to the loot tables And maybe a little overlook on reactive Damage of our main "DPS" Lines <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>Lockeye has already said that there will not be level 66 and level 80 versions of the spells added.  See the coercer board on eq2flames.

[McBenzos]

I'm not going to take the time to read all of this, and I'm sure someone said it. But as for this being a nerf, no it is not at all, if you use a dirge and coercer in the MT group like we do, then it is a HUGE upgrade, considering that <i><b>ONLY</b></i> 50% <b>total</b> hate gain can be acquired from buffs.  Thus, our hate buff doesnt even stack well now with a dirge's or dirge's with ours however you want to look at it.  So if you ask me, a dps spec'd coercer, I LOVE this change. Nerf?  Definately not.

[rww2]

<p>after reading this thread I have realized that my aa lines will need very little tweaking. I am already down my sta/wis lines with 8 points also into +int.  All I will have to change to optimize my toon for being a MT coercer is getting the final ability of my sta/wis lines. I can't believe no one has been talking about our reuse speedup for our mezzes. That will be very nice for soloing and those tricky raid fights where mezzes are needed.</p><p>And in order for something to stack BETTER, wouldn't it have to stack in the first place?</p><p>And honestly sharpcharm... melee???  really???</p><p>On raids when the MT goes down the next to fall is usually the MT shaman then me as the coercer because of the crazy hate I can manage to generate so the hate transfer is definately a good thing even w/o perpetuality. </p><p>And a note to coercers using a concentration to harmonious link themselves... BAD coercer! BAD!</p><p>And MT groups should always have a dirge/coercer in em. This LU will change nothing in regards to that.</p><p>And a druid in the MT group is pointless in probably about 95% of situations considering almost all of their heals work out of group.</p><p>On a final note I cannot wait for this new update and I really can't wait to finally have a prefix other than count. Options are always nice.</p>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

On the note of Druid heals... The same number of heals work outside as they do inside as all the other Healers. Oh, sorry.. their tree works outside I guess.. but then again, so does the Defiler warding spawn thingie. Druids bring their specialty heal that works regardless if there's a ward or reactive up. If the MT or group is damaged, he will be healed.. whereas any other healer has to resort to non-efficient heals to do that. Druids make a very nice backup healer, have good resists to stack on... and a Warden's +Skill buff makes for a tank that can land hits in defensive stance against those higher level epics. So yeah, they have a good place in the raid. Any raid that doesn't need the HP buff as badly could swap a Warden over the Templar and do just as well, if not better in that position. Especially the Warden's +65 to attack skill buff... that thing is gold, even when stacked with a dirge's buff. Or better yet, let the dirge put up a different buff.. they have too many, and not enough concentration slots to begin with.

[Verrie77]

<p><span style="font-size: xx-small"><span style="color: #ff00ff">After reading all posts ( tired ) I have both good and bad thoughts about this change. When dirge and coercer both had high hatebuffs..and they didnt get their full benefitials..cause of cap.. we usually had the dirge to cancle his buff....and use that concentration for another buff..as ours dont take concentration. And the hate thing was never really a problem....</span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: xx-small"><span style="color: #ff00ff">But now we both have to use those buffs, so the dirge will use one extra anyway. </span></span></p>

[Nodok]

This <b>is</b> a nerf, no matter how you try to color it.  All this talk about the MT group but you're ignoring the fact that coercers are not always in the MT group.  Right now coercers are masters of hate gain, having more than the dirges.  They can be dropped into an OT group without a dirge and be just below the cap. After this change, coercers at ad3 are going from 43% hate gain, to 15% hate gain/14% hate transfer.  I doubt that 14% transfer on their sub-par damage and hate gain will be anywhere near the 28% hate lost from this <b>nerf</b>.  Dirge's are taking a tiny cut to their hate, leaving them well ahead of coercer's now. I think this could be a lot less painful if coercers damage spells are increased.  It's sad that coercers have to stay at 30% power AND be decked out in proc gear just to be able to parse on the lower side of other mages.  (Also imo staying at 30% power for every fight is probably the <b>least fun</b> thing I've tried in this game.)

[Andu]

<cite>Nodok wrote:</cite><blockquote>This <b>is</b> a nerf, no matter how you try to color it.  All this talk about the MT group but you're ignoring the fact that coercers are not always in the MT group.  Right now coercers are masters of hate gain, having more than the dirges.  They can be dropped into an OT group without a dirge and be just below the cap. After this change, coercers at ad3 are going from 43% hate gain, to 15% hate gain/14% hate transfer.  I doubt that 14% transfer on their sub-par damage and hate gain will be anywhere near the 28% hate lost from this <b>nerf</b>.  Dirge's are taking a tiny cut to their hate, leaving them well ahead of coercer's now. I think this could be a lot less painful if coercers damage spells are increased.  It's sad that coercers have to stay at 30% power AND be decked out in proc gear just to be able to parse on the lower side of other mages.  (Also imo staying at 30% power for every fight is probably the <b>least fun</b> thing I've tried in this game.) </blockquote>QFE If our reactives actually worked consistently (i.e. they went off every attack, not every hit) then this would all be a lot less tolerable.

[noobslayer]

<p>I don't know about the rest of you but as a coercer I am usually in the top 5 of a mob's hate list in any raid.</p><p>I read some post above that talked about 200,000 damage from Cataclysmic Mind, if you really believe this you haven't played your coercer in a raid for a VERY long time.  No raid mob, especially a T7 mob expends that kind of mana anymore.  Spells and abilities that might use that kinda of power dont take any power at all and are events.  You might have gotten that kind of result years ago and it would be listed on your specs, but you won't see any damage like that now, the highest hit we will get is around 6k+ with a well critted Sonic Boom</p><p>49% to 17% is a huge nerf, BUT</p><p>a 17% hate transfer is pretty freakin awesome.  If you doubt this and you dps even average with your coercer, group with a pally and have them place amends on you...about the only caster better for that spell to be put on is a warlock.</p><p> Like has been mentioned...you don't just generate hate from DPS, your stuns **cough 'Sonic Boom' cough** power drains, dazes....every freakin thing you cast generates hate, if you are just looking at it from a DPS stand point and parse a low 1k then yes 170 hate a second is bad, but its just not like that, really your spell effects and debuffs generate just as much hate as your damage does...too many people are looking at the hate generated from damage alone.</p><p> Seriously people what are you worried about here....needing to actually cast in raid to give the tank hate?  Our hate gain is nice...it is hardly the only thing we offer the MT group, if you are putting your dps buff on the MT that is pushing their DPS mod 78 further or 88 if you have gotten enough of your force set...you do know that making the tank do almost 80% more damage on weapon swings pushes their hate even further right?  Honestly...what freakin raiding guild doesn't ALWAYS use a dirge in the main tank group if possible?  The coercer is not competing with the bard slot, it is competing with a scout or a druid slot.  Unless major changes take place 4 classes should  always be in the MT group...coercer, scout and druid are all options to consider based on what you are fighting.  If anything slamming your AEs into a group of mobs with the new hate transfer likely going live will give any raid leader thought into whether they want a swashie for AE hate gain or a coercer who has more to offer then just that.</p><p> Another thing to consider is the transfer takes hate AWAY from you...close to as much as a concentration slot cast on yourself using Harmonious Link, its like a freebie there. Add the reduction of HL and you got like 40% dehate on yourself.</p><p> The only coercer who this should reallly effect as far as hate gain to the tank goes is the BOT</p>

[slippery]

This is an insanely large nerf for coercers in use in off tank groups. An OT needs Hate Gen to instantly pick up adds, and the transfer of your horribly unreliable dps isn't going to help an OT do that. In the past where a coercer could do that alone you can't anymore. The days of putting two tanks in one group to both pick up adds with the Dirge hate buff on one tank and the coercer hate buff on the other are over, because the coercer is dead useless in that situation. The Coercer who used to be the masters of hate are now useless without another hate buffing class there. But I guess thinking outside of the MT group has been too much to ask of people for a long long time.

[noobslayer]

<p>The solution Slippery is to have the coercer targetting the OT and slamming AEs as soon as he has the adds targeted, have you MA hold up like 1 or 2 seconds before going after the adds which he should be doing anyway and your OT will most likely have just as much hate if not more then he did before with the strait hate booster. There is nothing unreliable about our AEs, just our reactives. throwing out 5-10k damage in 4 seconds plus the power drain on one AE, the daze on another, and the stun on the third is gonna give the OT more hate then their single encounter taunt ever will even if boosted with a dirge AND coercer.</p><p>The coercer living on the other hand is another matter altogether, but if the tank is fast and the coercer being near him it shouldnt be an issue, if your raid is pushing 30k dps anyway the coercer should be fine, and if the coercer isnt then find another tank.  The tank getting resisted/stunned or whatever other excuse he may come up with wont change a thing vs the current hate gain because if his taunt is getting resisted, or not cast, or he keeps swinging at the mob and missing he isn't getting any hate anyway so the current hate gain is completely useless.  If anything you are giving instant hate to your OT faster then before, because he is pulling in hate along with the hate you are giving him.</p><p>The only thing that might change is the order in which the coercer casts his spells. Most have AGI so they simply spam all their spells since they can get them all on a mob in under ten seconds vs deliberately starting with their AEs.</p>

[Nodok]

Slamming AE's?   I cast Sonic Boom at the start of any encounter now and -never- take aggro from it.  I follow it up with the other 2 AE's we have and still don't take aggro.  I'm not sure how you're pulling it off, but I never take aggro from my MT.  I have 730 int, full masters, only 3 pieces of proc gear and a couple +dmg items/adorns (ie: forsaken rites+adorn, gloves+adorn).  I'm spec'd full AGI and some INT (not crits anymore though).  I spend the entire fight casting, literally non-stop, to get my procs triggered.  Reactives, stroke, dots, AE's, debuffs, stuns, stifle, etc, are all casted over and over <b>non-stop</b>. I usually average 800-850dps.  On a bad fight where the tank doesn't get hit much (reactives ftl), I'll do 500-600, and on a good fight against a caster I'll peak at 1150 or so. I don't see this nerf helping me stay in raids.  <b>In fact I see this getting me bumped from raids where power regen isn't required.</b>  Lots of guilds don't even roll with a coercer now because they're just not needed except for occasional power regen and OT group hate. I'm not sure where this nerf will lead and I'm not usually a 'sky is falling' kind of guy, but tbh this is scary to me.  I love raiding and I don't wait to lose my spot on raids.  The RL is already talking about it and the change hasn't even gone live yet. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[slippery]

Slamming AE's, thats funny when adds pop every 30 seconds. What is the recast on our AE's? Even if you had the AE's up every time adds popped I guarantee the Sorcerors would still easily pull agro with 17% hate gain and 17% transfer. Without a dirge it isn't possible. That is exactly the point, without a dirge it isn't possible. It used to be very possible to put 2 OT's in one group to pick up 2 different types of adds (contest mayong comes to mind) and have the Coercer hate buff on one and dirge hate buff on the other. That is not even remotely possible now. For the hate gain from a Coercer to be effective their MUST be another hate gain or transfer because the coercer alone means jack.

[noobslayer]

<p>Well if all you are contributing to your raid is a hate feed then your raid leader is probably correct to boot you, especially with you argueing for him to do it.</p><p>If your sorcerers are pulling aggro then they aren't using their spells right.</p><p>If you aren't staying above or around most of your dps in the hate list then you yourself aren't specced for dps or you aren't casting, and a coercer can cast nonstop and never run out of mana unless they want to, given basic fabled gear.  </p><p>If you are too oblivious to know where you stand on the hate list, then fight Treyloth and see how you can boost your hate until you are getting knocked around, you should easily be above your sorcerers on the hate list with only half of their dps, and you really should be on par with them. 1500+ dps from you alone is easy with only an INT spec and if you have AGI and not pushing it much further then that then its because you have been pushing no DPS gear or are relying too much on proc/damage increase gear instead of crit gear.  If you don't know by now that crit gear is far better for you then proc gear then you really don't know how enchanter dps works. Our "unreliable dps" comes into effect really only for about the top 25-30% of our dps...or in other words if you have an INT spec and are using it along with decent raiding gear/spells (which you should have fighting avatars anyway) then the "unreliable dps" you are talking about is going to determine if you are going to push past 2k dps on AE encounters/mobs with lots of AEs or 1.5k dps on most single target mobs with few to none AEs/majority of raid avoiding the AE.</p><p>Further, like I said before, our hate does not come from our dps alone, half of it (or more if you have neither INT nor AGI) is based off of the mostly raid useless power drains, dazes and stuns. Have you seriously not seen how much a stun effects aggro since last years stun revamp?</p><p>If you are still concerned you can respec when this comes out and have a nice little ability that will knock your aggro stealing sorcerer down two spots on the hate list.  If they are rifting on the pull toss a HL on them, taking away over 20% of their hate should definately do the trick.</p><p>But don't listen to me, go back to your RL and tell them you suck so they kick you from SoN.</p><p>You seriously sound like noob coercers who are parsing 300 on raids because they think that is all they can do.</p>

[Obsidiann]

<cite>noobslayer wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>If your sorcerers are pulling aggro then they aren't using their spells right.</p></blockquote>by "right" do you mean holding back and barely casting sometimes? Warlocks have massive hate problems, especially with Rift now. <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[noobslayer]

I know basically how sorc spells works but I haven't raided using one so you might ask them, but I know I have seen some parse well over 2/3k without pulling aggro and others pull it with barely over 1k dps in the same raid, it probably depends on if they are using their dehates, their gear, and the actual order they cast their spells more then if they are holding back or not.

[Nodok]

Try re-reading what I said noob. I'm not arguing for my RL to boot me, I'm arguing to prevent that.  These changes that you're advocating seem to be negative for a lot of coercers, myself included.  Even if I was parsing 1500, I would still have an issue with losing 49% hate gain for 17% gain+transfer with no other benefits to counter it (ie: more damage).

[slippery]

Heh, I DO parse 1.5k+ on my Coercer, regularly spiking over 2k based on encounter. I also play my Wizard all the time on raids and do 2.5-3k dps and never ever pull agro. A Sorcerors job isn't to hold back so your tank can hold agro, a Sorceror's job is to do as much dps as possible, it is the tanks job to hold agro. If you have agro problems it is either raid set up or tank oriented. Nerfing hate controling abilities across the board just makes things that much harder to control, but the end result is that it is still going to be Dirge + Swash in the MT group and Dirge for the OT. I can sit at 1.5k on Treyloth and never get knocked around, but I guess that comes with a raid that can actually dps. The "Unreliable" DPS that is 60%+ of our dps? That varies so much on encounter it is stupid, and being as it is 60%+ of our dps it isn't going to be on adds on jack [Removed for Content] since the reactives aren't going to be there. Most of the agro you generate is spike damage from Auspex, unless you are fighting an Avatar then it is going to be Spell Scourge. You generate jack [Removed for Content] on adds on an Avatar or Mayong that is going to help the OT get agro.  You just can't generate enough dps every 30 seconds when adds spawn to force the mobs at the tank without a Dirge hate buffing the tank. Dot, Period, end of story. You have yet to even remotely address this point. There is no way possible for you to generate that agro every 30 seconds. In that situation the tank needs to pure hate generation which you no longer have.

[AziBam]

Yay!  This just in....from test notes... Coercer <ul><li>Smirking Demeanor: Reverted to original live percentages.</li></ul>

[Obsidiann]

<cite>AziBam wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yay!  This just in....from test notes... Coercer <ul><li>Smirking Demeanor: Reverted to original live percentages.</li></ul> </blockquote> Whoa no way, seriously? Thank god...

[noobslayer]

<p>Maybe the devs actually read these threads sometimes.</p><p>I can't think of another single arguement in favor of the hate change they proposed, I hope they decided against it for good</p>

[Blumfield]

Now, they need to raise the hate buff cap and everybody's happy.

[JackAll]

<p>Im sad actualy</p><p>Im at the point where I think that any global change cant help but boost us in some way.</p><p>Yes our class suck that much.</p><p>Did you know that almost 5 times as many wizards as coercer is being lvl'ed up these days?</p><p>Or that only around 2% of the ppl playing eq2 wants to play a coercer?</p><p>Call it power or call it fun. Fact is that we dont have it in most ppl's eye's</p>

[Diadem1]

I hope they continue to try to find solutions.  Yeah, this one didnt work out so great, but you have to acknowledge it was an attempt.

[noobslayer]

You think the class is bad now you should have played it when eq2 originally went live...I do wish SoE hadn't changed the Cataclymic Mind line though, I liked it much better as a heavy nuke, now its about useless on a raid since no epic uses enough power anymore to count for much.

[Rarlin]

<cite>noobslayer wrote:</cite><blockquote>You think the class is bad now you should have played it when eq2 originally went live...I do wish SoE hadn't changed the Cataclymic Mind line though, I liked it much better as a heavy nuke, now its about useless on a raid since no epic uses enough power anymore to count for much.</blockquote><p> Yeah,</p><p>But there was one mob on a raid that it recently hit for over 45k for me. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I know it's generally useless, but it's really [Removed for Content]' cool when a mob actually does use power. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Ibunubi]

I was actually excited about the change to our hate buff. Now they took my hate transfer. <img src="/smilies/c30b4198e0907b23b8246bdd52aa1c3c.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[JackAll]

<p>I was a coercer during beta so I know well how bad it was, and yes its a lot better now.</p><p>But then it is a better game.</p><p>A lot better...</p>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<cite>Rarlin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>noobslayer wrote:</cite><blockquote>You think the class is bad now you should have played it when eq2 originally went live...I do wish SoE hadn't changed the Cataclymic Mind line though, I liked it much better as a heavy nuke, now its about useless on a raid since no epic uses enough power anymore to count for much.</blockquote><p> Yeah,</p><p>But there was one mob on a raid that it recently hit for over 45k for me. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I know it's generally useless, but it's really [Removed for Content]' cool when a mob actually does use power. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote><p> Yeah, I think about the only ones I've seen use an appreciable amount of power is healers. Their heals still have a fairly smallish heal/power ratio. So when you multiply their power spent by 5 and return it as damage, their heal is close to negated.</p><p>So far, the only mob I've personally witnessed this is with the priest named in the Doom Trio. Still.. it wasn't 45k, lol.</p>

[Aranieq]

it will hit Mistress pretty well.. don't think another mob in game that I've seen atm will land cataclysmic mind so hard.  I was curious what she was using that was so power intensive, but it does go 2-3 times a fight.