Primal Agility and arrow nerfs are over the top

[MacDaddy62]

Bear in mind that the damage bonuses on arrows in this screenshot (with the exception of umbral darkness) are scaled down, as this screenshot was taken on a level 10 character. <img src="http://eq2images.station.sony.com/000/001/485/860.JPG" border="0"> These extremely over-the-top nerfs disappoint and enrage me to no end, but I'm going to try to remain as calm as possible in discussing them. I'll address Primal Agility first.  This buff has already been nerfed once and this additional nerf is basically going to cause rangers to have to either die on pull at a laughably high rate or else hold off on auto attacking for the first ~5 seconds of the fight, thus castrating their dps.  Rogue and assassin auto attack dps is consistent, occurring in relatively small chunks at high frequencies, but rangers spike auto attack every 4-5 seconds.  However, just like rogues and assassins, they naturally have to start auto attacking at the start of the fight to get the most out of their auto attack dps.  With this change, I am very much worried that that first auto bow shot is going to spell death for rangers.  Please reconsider this nerf and bring the master 1 version back up to ~35%. As for arrows, it is obvious that ranger hit % is out of line with that of melee classes.  However, ranger dps, though very high, is not inappropriately high for a class that offers the least utility in the game.  Having said that, a modest nerf to ranger accuracy would not destroy a ranger's desirability on a raid.  Unfortunately, the changes currently on test represent the sort of over-the-top nerf highly typical of Sony, and furthermore destroy arrow progression.  Some would say that rangers were competitive with other top dps classes after Eof came out and before any of the arrow changes, and while this is true, they were [Removed for Content] during this time because the other dps classes with which they were competitive (rogue, summoner, sorceror, assassin) all offer more utility than rangers do.  Using hypothetical numbers, 2.5k dps + utility > 2.5k dps + no utility.  It wasn't until the arrow changes that rangers gained the dps edge they needed to finally be a solid class again.  After these changes, rangers are going to make a return to mediocrity, doing dps which is competitive with that of other classes, but lacking the utility that those other classes offer.  The only way a ranger will be able to maintain that dps edge which is <i>essential</i> for ranger class viability will be by using either tenderwood arrows (a limited-quantity raid drop) or possibly field point arrows, which should logically be inferior to my summoned umbral darknesses.  Why are umbral darknesses getting a negative hit chance?  These are high-end arrows summoned from a rare raid-dropped bow.  If these changes hit live as they are now on test, using umbral darknesses (which have been my staple arrow for over a year) will be like shooting myself in the foot.  Umbral darknesses should have the 15% hit bonus currently assigned to tenderwood arrows and tenderwoods should be boosted to a 25% hit bonus.  This will allow rangers to have an appropriate dps edge (over other dps classes with more utility) using the summoned Deathtoll arrows and give them an additional dps bonus when using tenderwood arrows, similar to what all rogues and predators can get by using the crafted EH poison. In summary, Lockeye, I know you're out there reading this.  Please reconsider the changes discussed above and make sure they are tested thoroughly to ensure that proper dps balance is maintained after they hit live.  You're in great danger here of repeating what was done to rangers at the start of KoS and losing a lot of customers again because of it.  Please make sure you get the balance right with this update. -Azleya, Ranger and Officer of Strike Lucan D'Lere

[FuRiouSQ]

Very well put. Azleya@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote>However, ranger dps, though very high, is not inappropriately high for a class that offers the least utility in the game. </blockquote>i would like to add or change above statment to NONE as pathfinding is not a utility for in cambat raid or groups <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. yes i agree with the arrows bonus should be readjusted. tenderwood - 25% unbral/globs - 15% fieldpoint - 20% (higher then DT ammo but offsets this with the low damage output) bodkin - 10% broadhead - 5% true shot - 5% with these number we will still be nurfed but inline with other scout on the dps charts. the 75% hit on tenderwood was where the problem was in the first place. Now for pimal agility i dont mind the 27% since im sure there are going to be some AA changes to classes that give/transfer hate as well as fighter AA changes with hate. Also maybe even an added AA change for our rnager line to increase this primal agitility %? My 2cents

[MacDaddy62]

Actually, it appears as though raid tank aggro is getting nerfed, as well.  Tanks will still be able to get to the max hate gain mod (50% is the hard cap on hate gain), but it will require both coercer and dirge hate buffs PLUS hate gain from either AA's or items.  This also means that you won't be able to give that second hate buff to your MT hate transfer person for additional hate feed (i.e. coercer hate buff to MT, dirge hate buff to MT group swash).  Furthermore, both swash and assassin hate transfers are getting their % reduced.  Coercers are getting a hate transfer on their hate buff to help compensate for reduced hate gain component, but in no way does this come close to compensating for the aforementioned nerfs.  Combined with the nerf to the ranger hate reducer, this all means that rangers will very likely be pulling aggro and dying an awful lot with that first auto bow shot.

[FuRiouSQ]

Maybe there trying to put more use from a pally with amends?

[MacDaddy62]

LOL, I'm sorry, no offense, but that did make me laugh.  Paladins are a pretty sad class for raiding atm and these nerfs to hate buffs aren't going to change that.  The problem with Amends is that it doesn't stack well with other hate transfer buffs.  Therefore, all you would be doing is either using Amends on the MT swash or assassin instead of the swash's or assassin's own hate transfer buff, or else taking a ranger or sorceror for the MT group instead of the swash or assassin, which screws that ranger's or sorceror's dps because the MT group sucks for those classes.  Furthermore, paladins need much better damage absorption abilities to be a viable raid MT.

[FuRiouSQ]

well it was ment as a joke lol. but what i was saying was not MT but OT/dps group. like pally, inq, dirge, mystic, brawler/illusionist, ranger would be a decent settup and having the primal agility up with amends will help alot with our agro.

[galactichero17]

/sigh..   T7crafted ammo is still lvl60 ammo.. it's really imbalanced that T6 fable bow + T7 ammo can overpower T7 legendary bow + T7 ammo.

[Nulad]

This isn't looking at all good <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Bre]

<p>  Hi all</p><p>Ok it's nearly 5 am so I'm gonna make this short.</p><p>Currently on PvE Test, please note I said currently, I and others are trying to mitigate some of our losses:</p><p>Tenderwood arrows are, 151 Piercing, +3 Range, +15% hit bonus. And does 14 - 15 piercing damage to target Adamantium Broadhead - +192 Slashing, -5 meters, -10% Hit bonus Adamantium Field Point - +74 Crushing, +5 Meters, +30% Hit bonus Adamantine Bodkin - +126 Piercing, +10 Hit bonus Burning Deathfist arrow - +120 Piercing, +5 meters, +15% Hit bonus. 35 - 42 heat damage & 25 - 30 heat dam. every 3 seconds for 6 seconds. (aware we don't use these, but figured someone might want to know)   </p><p>At ad3 Primal Agility is 23%</p><p>Star Darkened Longbow now has a 1.7 time per min to let you crit 100% on the next shot.</p><p>Changes to the Pred line seem more suited to sins than us. Although I like not having to use a dagger in prime now. </p><p>DW are now 1 handers, that can be duel wielded...  I pity the person who had to change all those stats. Offhand is supposed to be slower, but /weaponstats showed no difference.</p><p>5 aa in pathfinding now gives 51% runspeed</p><p>Solo impact - I seemed to take less damage from mobs. No idea why yet. </p><p>Group Impact - I had to pay attention to not get aggro, and dumping it was harder.</p><p>Raid impact - Dunno yet, raid is tomorrow night.</p><p> I'll add more later.</p><p>Brega, 70 Ranger, Test server</p>

[Nulad]

So did the pathfinding AP get changed or is that final 51% figure a result of <forgets name> in the agility line now affecting out of combat run speed?

[peadar mac]

im missing a hell of alot as it is and they do this what are they thinking we dont need to be nerfed nerf manaburn or life burn no1 thinks of them, i hope t god they giv us sumthin because with these changes we gonan b pullin agro and not doing enough damage thansk soe u got it right again

[xandez]

but lets face it... one of the most popular classes, so what did you expect... the "nerfs" always turn that way... and the upgrades some got were quite small, if some ability got upped, some got downed etc... *sigh* still, downtuning is always disappointing ++Xan

[lilmohi]

Didn't they promise not to nerf summoned arrows?  In light of this change I propose they replace the summon arrow enchancement achievement with something that might be used (like an enhanced agro reducer).

[Microbolt]

Nuladen@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote>So did the pathfinding AP get changed or is that final 51% figure a result of <forgets name> in the agility line now affecting out of combat run speed? </blockquote> Nope, just now (maybe only on PvP Test) the Rangers Self buff and Movement AA are only out of combat and now stack with pathfinding.  With master 1 self buff (8%) and AA's in Pathfinding and Agility 3 I was able to self buff to 64% runspeed.

[kartikeya]

<p>*sigh* These changes frustrate me so badly, and I was <i>already </i>frustrated nearly to the point of betrayal over the fact that as a casual raider (1-2 times a week on average, mostly KoS zones), my only shot at being able to MATCH swashies, some brigands, necros, assassins, and on some very rare occasions MONKS and BERZERKERS was to raid Deathtoll and Halls of Seeing over and over and over and over and over and over again...and see exactly ONE bow drop in that time (Ichorstrand, and no, I didn't win it, another ranger did). </p><p>I guess now I can cross Deathtoll off my list, eh?</p><p>I love my ranger. I love the idea behind rangers, I love the class, I've played as my main since EQ1, and I lasted all through the early days, to the Kunark 'ranger down' days to the beginnings of Gates of Discord, and I've played a ranger as my main since about the second month of release.  I'd like to think I'm pretty damned stubborn when it comes to sticking with a class through its ups and downs. But at this point? At this point I think having to replace some gear and my masters and adept III's might almost be WORTH not having to deal with the, pardon my french, [Removed for Content] arrow and bow ridiculousness any longer. Yes, I know assassins are getting hit too, thanks aggro changes. But not having to deal with having to pay double for my DPS (hi, woodworkers), having the bow constantly overlooked in itemization and prismatic quests (SoD is finishing eh? Anyone wanna take a bet that there's not a bow reward? Go on. No really), and having to raid the hardest KoS zones in order to come equal with classes that can get their upgrades from the easiest, many of which have far, far, far more utility than I do, might just be worth it. Yes, I know rangers with the right bows do very well. It's been a year. I am VERY tired of waiting for bows to drop. </p><p>And now? Well. My confidence in the ability of devs to handle a ranged fighter responsibly (any devs, not just these) has been low for a very, very long time. I adored the arrow changes. You have no idea how much my bank account thanks you for, while not ending the spending, at least reducing it from 1-2pp per arrows every time I wanted to join a group or a raid. But I'm tired. I'm tired of going up and down, being thrown a bone and then having it taken away several updates later. I'm not naive enough to believe that this doesn't happen in some degree to every class, but I am TIRED of the BOW. Why? See above. I love the bow. I hate how I am required to pay and pay and pay just to use it, while classes that aren't paying such costs surpass me in DPS and often utility at every single turn. I hate having to wait on extremely rare drops from raid zone bosses that never actually come and would maybe, MAYBE, let me catch up DPS wise with these other classes. I hate having a minimum range, and being reduced to a very poor man's assassin on every single dragon fight with the exception of Talendor. Exactly why can't I shoot an arrow at a dragon's belly that's about ten feet above my head? I hate having to stand a certain distance out in tough group zones, where I risk pulling adds onto my group if I'm not extremely careful. I hate the fact that most of the time, being pure ranged still doesn't allow me to avoid AE's, so what exactly is the point of having to stand so bloody far away?</p><p>I'm ranting, yes. But guys, devs, I'm asking you. Please give me a reason to stick with this class. Because right now, with these changes, I think I've just about run out of every single justification I have for myself.</p>

[kidpaul]

<p>We shouldn't be inline with the "other" scouts we should be inline with a scout and that is the Assassins. Ranger and Assassin should out dps the Brigands, Swashbucklers, Dirge and Troubadours any day of the week and that is just how it should be cause we aren't utility classes like they are im sorry to have to say this to the 4 mention classes that we shouldn't be inline with you guys you cant have both pieces of the pie.</p><p> Edited: Removed some profanity.</p>

[Cedric Quindiniar]

The real irony is that DT bow ammunition and ranger summoned arrows are actually worse now then before the GU 32 arrow changes.  Before GU 32 DT ammunition already hit harder then other available arrows, and the ranger summoned ammunition had no benefits or negatives.  Now DT ammunition still hits a little bit harder, but is less accurate, and ranger summoned arrows have a negative to accuracy, range, and do less damage than store bought. Whoever is making the arrow adjustments doesn't seem to understand how truely insignificant the damage bonuses are compared to the accuracy benefit.  Field points are still hands down the best option in the large majority of circumstances.  If your soloing/grouping/raiding content appropriate to your level (even cons and up based off the scaling of contested zones, group instances and raid instances) then you are going to get a far larger benefit from a +30% hit bonus then from an additional 52 or 77 damage to each bow shot.  bodkin arrows might have a slight edge on lower blues or greens, and broadheads will probably have the advantage only on greys. Statistically the Deathfist arrows are about the same as Tenderwoods (despite the huge difference in level and attainability), though I'm betting neither would work better than field points on raid encounters.

[MacDaddy62]

After seeing the actual handcrafted arrow stats from test that were posted, I think the adamantine bodkin arrows are a good starting point for arrow progression into high-end raid arrows.  The problem is two-fold.  First of all, I have serious doubts that the different kinds of handcrafted arrows are actually balanced with each other.  Experience tells me that the +74 damage and 30% hit bonus from field point arrows is going to be a lot better than the +126 damage and 10% hit bonus from bodkin.  If they are indeed imbalanced as I suspect, this will make it a lot harder to effectively create superior raid-dropped arrows and preserve proper progression.  Second, arrow progression above handcrafted arrows is royally screwed up.  My raid-dropped Bazkul will now summons arrows that are a LOT worse than adamantine bodkin?  [I cannot control my vocabulary]???  Bazkul and Ichorstrand summoned arrows MUST be better than handcrafted, or else arrow progression is [Removed for Content].  Tenderwood arrows are at least better than handcrafted, but by such a small, small margin.  5% more hit bonus, 25 damage, and a weak proc (over adamantine bodkin) is hardly worthy of an arrow crafted from Emerald Halls drops.  Again, the DT summoned arrows need to have the stats currently assigned to tenderwood arrows (minus proc) and tenderwoods need to be pushed back up to 25% hit bonus and the +171 damage they currently have on live.  I think this all represents a very reasonable arrow progression based on how hard it is to get these arrows and will keep rangers in a dps range appropriate for their class.

[pseudocide]

<p>only thing i can say is rogue dps better get nerfed alot more than ours</p><p> until patch day we can all pray the nerfs are nerfed before they go live</p>

[Microbolt]

Guerrilla@Venekor wrote: <blockquote><p>only thing i can say is rogue dps better get nerfed alot more than ours</p><p> until patch day we can all pray the nerfs are nerfed before they go live</p></blockquote><p> Duo'd a swashy today on test and he killed me by the time I was able to get him down to 80% health.  And I only got that because we started at max range <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I do hope ranger's dont get hit as hard as they did on test or we may have to start fighting from hard to get to locations to keep the range we need.</p>

[Venez]

<p>Bazkul and Ichorstrand summoned ammo on test atm is -5 to hit : yes that is negative 5% to hit. </p><p>Correct me if im wrong, but werent we told that the DT ammo was going to be better than any of the ammo that could be crafted, hence the legendary tag on it ....</p><p>Guess Rangers once again get to PAY for there DPS, being forced to buy player made ammo, or make there own if there lucky enuff to have went the woodworker route.</p>

[Rhym]

<b><span style="color: #3333ff">Guerrilla</span></b> if u cant outdps a Rouge espcially a Brig then ur obviously doing something wrong since i cant outdps an assassin or rangers as Brigand nor can Swashs , Rouges DPS is totally buff dependent if we have no buffs especially Brigands who got no perma selfhaste like Rangers or Swashs or perma dps mod like assasins if u cant beat us ur doing something wrong yes Brigs can parse 3000dps on a rare ocassion but just with buffs and uber gear i agree when it comes to Swashbucklers who blast out 3k almost period and on rare occassions with some uber gear and well sorted buiff classes in their group (dirge coercer templar) almost 6k dps that is nutz but will end wit hthe upcoming proc change on double attack but we Brigs get hit by every Rouge nerf very hard , If i parse 1800/1900 zw thats ok imo since there are classes like Rangers assassins swashs who parse me out on the zw by almost 1000dps and the rangers i know parse 3k+ zonewide but u got what u wanted already we Rouges going to loose dps now a lot especially brigs since we get our 3 times a minute threat position decrease proc taken away minus 1800 threat a minute ftw thank you SoE for "beefing" us again they nerfed double attack AA aswell can be compensated with DWs for a while until this other stupid change with DWs become one hand bollocks goes live sstill have Agi/Str but i guess that will be nerfed soonish too well we have to use Elude and Hideaway now what actually makes me go mad

[Sinful One]

yay ..... another ranger nerf, im gonna start playing a class that actully needs nerfing such as a swashy.. i play a necro + enjoy you it you nerf it so i play a ranger + enjoy it even more so you nerf it Nerf swashys and furys <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (i play a fury and they are faaar over powered <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )

[kidpaul]

Kinda ironic that they are revamping the kos aa tree to make it more versitale to split the cookiecuter model then they go and change the arrows forcing all the rangers that dont want to buy arrows go down and get extension in the eof aa tree to make their arrows remain like they was before the update. so multishot and focusing now <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[pseudocide]

<cite>Rhymez wrote:</cite><blockquote><b><span style="color: #3333ff">Guerrilla</span></b> if u cant outdps a Rouge espcially a Brig then ur obviously doing something wrong since i cant outdps an assassin or rangers as Brigand nor can Swashs , Rouges DPS is totally buff dependent if we have no buffs especially Brigands who got no perma selfhaste like Rangers or Swashs or perma dps mod like assasins if u cant beat us ur doing something wrong yes Brigs can parse 3000dps on a rare ocassion but just with buffs and uber gear i agree when it comes to Swashbucklers who blast out 3k almost period and on rare occassions with some uber gear and well sorted buiff classes in their group (dirge coercer templar) almost 6k dps that is nutz but will end wit hthe upcoming proc change on double attack but we Brigs get hit by every Rouge nerf very hard , If i parse 1800/1900 zw thats ok imo since there are classes like Rangers assassins swashs who parse me out on the zw by almost 1000dps and the rangers i know parse 3k+ zonewide but u got what u wanted already we Rouges going to loose dps now a lot especially brigs since we get our 3 times a minute threat position decrease proc taken away minus 1800 threat a minute ftw thank you SoE for "beefing" us again they nerfed double attack AA aswell can be compensated with DWs for a while until this other stupid change with DWs become one hand bollocks goes live sstill have Agi/Str but i guess that will be nerfed soonish too well we have to use Elude and Hideaway now what actually makes me go mad </blockquote>i play on pvp so i can only compare myself to swashys, but they have more dps than they should in relation to the other classes

[Drodin]

This totally blows.  The fact that DT ammo is on par with Makeshift better be an oversight. They should be about 20% hit bonus, and the tendwoods maybe 30%.  As it stands right now on test, field point are the best in the game.  Better than tenderwood and the DT ammo. Did rothgar get fired?  How could he let this happen to us.<img src="/smilies/c30b4198e0907b23b8246bdd52aa1c3c.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  

[Bre]

<p>Ok we raided labs tonight with three groups, buffs were not the best obviously but we swept through the zone with ease so I guess I can't gripe. Yes I am aware that labs isn't a high end raid but it's what we worked on so it is what I have to report.</p><p> Using aswb and globs I was at a lower to hit percentage than normal on ranged auto. When we got to yellows it became obvious that I am going to be spending a lot on the Adamantium Field Point arrows. Normally I top the parse or swap back and forth with a really good assassin we have. Tonight however, on the higher lvl mobs I was normally getting 3rd or 4th. Our Swash was doing extreamly well tonight and was making me look like I just started gearing up. There were also quite a few times that the brig and I were swapping places on the dps part, which truely sucked. I even got beat by our guard once tonight. In short it was a huge helping of you suck shoved down my throat. I did win the zw, but after really looking that was only due to me winning big on the blues at the beginning. And I won the ZW by less than 100 over a swash.</p><p>  Sorry I don't have exact numbers, after going over the parse I am in a pretty deep funk and just erased it. Tonights test was me fighting with the exact same setup and style as I normally do, tomorrows I'll modify and switch to field points. </p><p>Aggro wise - I had few problems. What I did notice is when I got aggro I had a [Removed for Content] of a time dropping it. Even using the tinkered deaggro. </p><p>I'll know more tomorrow, but right now on Test, it flat our sucks to be a ranger with DT ammo. I sincerely for the first time hope it is just me and that you guys can do better if this goes live. </p><p>Brega - 70 Ranger, Test Server</p>

[hun_gover]

<p> I am assuming that the DT legendary summoned arrows were incorrectly programmed to their current test value and they will be improved to where they were obviously meant to be, ie the best arrows bar Tenderwood.</p><p> Presumably its just a communication error between the Guy who make this decision to change and the Coder who stuck the wrong values in,</p><p> I look forward in anticipation at you changing DT Arrow values to proper level.</p><p>/sarcasm off</p>

[Prandtl]

<p>As near as I can tell, this arrow nerf flows from the tenderwood arrows from emerald halls.  Non-rangers equiped with them are supposedly able to do more dps ranged then they would in melee.   </p><p>OK, nerf those arrows.   What I don't understand is why every other arrow in the game is being tinkered with.  Dev's feeling bored or something?  I hope they look long and hard at this on test before they implement it live.  It was a long craw back to respectablity from KoS; I dont really feel like being [Removed for Content] again</p><p>As for Primal Agility..  I'm not sure whats going on here.  It appears that the entire aggro management system is being revamped, from tank down.  Why? I dunno. Dev's feeling bored?  Tell em to go fix Vanguard</p>

[LoreLady]

They just want to make us have more troubs/dirges in our groups so we can take advantage of buffs+hate reduction instead of using our own!! (sarcasm - but it will take place)

[Valer]

The whole DT summoned arrow nerf shows that whoever made these changes clearly doesn't play this game.  They thought giving them the highest damage would make them the best, when obviously, if they used a bow for more than a day, they would have realized its the accuracy bonus that matters the most. 

[Sham07]

Im not on test so i cant say what the exact impact of the changes are gona be. What worries me a lot more then the arrows is the changes to the hate system. The whole end-game ranger gear and AA setup is focusing on high auto-attack: Bows with low delay and a high damage spread, 10% dbl-attack both the fabled set & EoF AAs, high crit chance with agility line and focus. Its hard enough for a tank to hold agro as it is now, it will be almost impossible when these changes go live. I get hits with Star Darkened for 18-22k double attack quite frequently and when that happens I go down often enough even thou i hit elude and surveil whenever possible along with gm ignorant bliss for more dehate. The problem with ranger auto-attack is that, unlike for other classes, its not controllable like mage spells or other scouts dps. The wizzie can prepare for fusion.... sure it can crit high but he can calculate that risk and prepare in advance for the possible consequences that might have. The scouts can go on low dps by holding back their CAs for awhile or wait till their deagros pop up again before they go nuts again. For a ranger thats differend: his auto attack can hit anywhere between 1k and 22k each 3-4 seconds. Theres no skill or timing involved that allows us to control the strenghts of our hits and as such the amount of hate we produce. All we can do after a big hitter is to pray the mob stays on the tank or that the next attack doesnt hit for that much. As such wer dependant on having a certain amount of "free hate" on our agro account which we had with the 41% from primal. It let us survive at least one big hitter most of the time. Reducing primal by 14% makes the whole low-delay-bow itemization, the double attack on both AA and fabled set and the 45%crit from focus useless unless wer on a suicide run. Tbh Im looking forward to the hate changes. I think this will add some flavor to the game and especially to scout dps to which im looking forward to adjust. But PLS dont leave em 100% as they are now. A ranger can not control the strengh of his auto attack! Its provided by the random number generator, not by player skill.... and having a players survival depending on pure luck of getting the right numbers is only causing frustration. I do not want to die each time i hit focus or each time i double attack. I like the changes and i bring no complains without a suggestion: IF this goes live as it is on test now pls do NOT let the 2nd shot of double attack triggered by our AA skill or the fabled set bonus produce agro! Make the first one count to hate and make dbl attack from IA count since u can adjust to that. But u can not adjust to what we self-buff.

[TerriBlades]

<p>Sounds to me like your tanks need to work on their skill. I know it sounds harse and all, and you'll probably tell me Im wrong, but I never pull agro off my tank. Thats without using ignorate bliss, without using elude, and only survieling when I need stealth. Most of the time Im using Visicd Globs with my Rigid Scale, but even with tenderwoods I dont have any hate issues.</p><p>Wait, thats not true.. I lied.. I occassionally have hate issues when fighting seedlings on the first floor of EH because they debuff my hate reducer and my poison debuff. So I will sometimes forget to rebuff if we are chain pulling. I always pull agro when I start a fight without my hate reducer up.</p><p>I do expect there to be some initial problems with hate when it goes live, but I dont forsee it being a huge issue. I'll swap out poison to include ignorant bliss, I'll actually give the tank time to position the mob, and I'll be using elude as often as its up. I may even consider bidding on that helm. We'll see. The change itself is certainly going to seperate alot of players. Being able to control your hate will have an overall impact on your dps. With that said, Im not particularly worried about this change, its just another way to filter out bad players.</p>

[Bre]

<p>Ok, we went to FTH tonight. we were just in the middle of fighting Shredder when the server came down early so my info isn't complete. But so far using the +30 to hit arrows helped my dps considerably. I still took a hit in overally numbers considering I ended up in second by 400 to an assassin I normally beat. But it was better overall than using the DT arrows. I can still get near the top, but I have to work [Removed for Content] hard for it. And the assassin is beating me with ease currently. So there ya go, use the field pt arrows, get all the plus ranged you can, and do what you guys do best. I am still t1, just not the top. </p><p>It should be noted that the above info is for my group, my setup, my gear, and my playstyle. I truely hope you guys can do better. Also, we can always hope to get some changes before this hits you. Wish I had better news.</p><p>Brega - 70 Ranger, Test Server </p>

[TerriBlades]

<p>Was the summoned ammo from Ichostrand and Bazkul changed tonight? If so, could somone please post what those changes are?</p><p>Thanks</p>

[Shaulin Dolamite]

I have quite a few problems with the new changes comming, but my biggest concern is price. As it is now i pay a fortune in poisons to be top 3 on the parse. What was nice was once I got my ichor my cost dropped from now having to purchase arrows. I remember a post from a dev. stating that posions for were for bonus dps. Every ranger I know needs the poisons to parse where we should be.  After these changes it will cost a small fortune for Rangers just to do there t1 dps job.

[Bre]

<p>The DT arrows were upped to +15% to hit after last nights patch to Test. Getting them upped beyond that will be a true battle I believe. I just don't see them doing it. Sony seems to have a habit of cutting big then easing off a little. Makes me wonder if the big cut was to just make us happy about the smaller one. Sort of a minimization tactic. What does irk me is that the field points at 30% are still twice as accurate as the DT arrows. I'll continue feedbacking it though. Really hoping to get the melee only req on the aa's eased up a bit. I guess my dream is to see an aa tree filled full of viable choices for both branches of the predator tree. </p><p>Brega - 70 Ranger, Test Server</p>

[Prandtl]

<p>Glad to see the DT arrows are now hitting a bit better on test. I think you are right though, Brega. Feed us [Removed for Content] so we wont complain so much when the diet is changed to dog food. Considering how [Removed for Content] agonizing it is to get one of those bows to drop and the fact that they come from epic mobs, it just makes sense that they would have a higher hit% then ordinary handcrafted arrows.</p><p>My personal view is that the +ranged should tie directly into hit%. Right now I am not convinced it does, since I hit often wether I have +ranged gear on or not, and other classes hit just as often without +ranged buffs.</p>

[Gareorn]

<cite>Prandtl wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>My personal view is that the +ranged should tie directly into hit%. Right now I am not convinced it does, since I hit often wether I have +ranged gear on or not, and other classes hit just as often without +ranged buffs.</p></blockquote><p>Great point!  There is only one Assassin that I've compared with.  In the same zone on the same raid but different groups the Assassin had a +15 total Range mod from his gear and I had a +21 range mod from my gear.  Using the same arrows, his hit % was 4 points higher than mine.</p><p>I've found no proof that the range modifier actually works.  On the otherhand, it's not unusual to see a Guardian with no range modifiers and a 1% range crit hit a mob for over 2K with a longbow on the pull.  I'm not complaining about these things, because the damage by the Assassins and Guardians actually help the Guardian hold aggro, and that's the way I'd like to keep it.  I'm just saying that the + range modifiers seem to be nothing more than a placebo. </p>

[MacDaddy62]

I'm glad to see that they've fixed the DT arrows to be at least marginally better than adamantine bodkin (and also bumped tenderwood arrows up to 20%)..  I'm still very concerned, however, about the balance between the different types of handcrafted arrows.  I assume that the 3 different types are supposed to be pretty much equal to each other.  However, I'm pretty sure that the 20% extra hit bonus from field point (over bodkin) outweighs the ~50 damage lost (I'm sitting here hitting from about 2.5k-11k+, remember), thus making field point the best crafted arrow and broadhead the suck.  This in turn raises the question of whether field point arrows beat out Deathtoll and even tenderwood arrows.  I think there's a good chance they do.  Thus, it's easy to see how improper balance among arrows at the handcrafted level screws up any further arrow progression. Regarding ranger de-aggro, maybe you (devs) think 41% is overpowered, but ummmm, mages get that, too.  It's called a troubador, the single most central support class to any raid's mage group.  Last I heard, the troubador de-aggro buff was un-changed on test.  It's certainly true that you COULD start grouping scouts with troubadors to recover the de-aggro you're nerfing from their own buffs, but that would screw over scout dps, as troubs have little to offer in the way of dps buffs for scouts.  The classes rangers are typically grouped with for max dps are dirge, illusionist, inquisitor, and berserker (not necessarily all at once =p), as these are the classes that offer real dps-raising buffs to the ranger.  None of these classes have any de-aggro buffs that work on scouts (illu synergism has a de-aggro component, but only works on hostile spells).  Thus, scouts need their personal de-aggro buffs to effectively control their aggro.  With these nerfs, you're going to make scout aggro even worse than sorceror aggro, and it's pretty widely agreed that sorcerors need something to help them control their aggro. I also agree that +ranged (and +slash/pierce/crush) needs to tie in more directly with hit chance.  Over the course of EoF, I have ditched Leaf Rot Wristguards (+10 ranged) and Nature's Gloves of the Stalker (+7 ranged) for the full ranger set, which is understandable, I suppose, given the set bonus, but also Ring of Relkententinar (+7 ranged) for Ring of the Faithful's marginally better stats, simply because +ranged is just that worthless.  Do something like +5 skill points over base cap (350)=1% hit chance, or if you want diminishing returns, start with something like +5 skill points=3% hit bonus and taper it off.  As it stands, there's no reason to get +ranged gear.  Also, if you do this, make mounts castable indoors so people can at least get the bonuses from them (such as +7 ranged). -Azleya, Ranger and Officer of Strike Lucan D'Lere