Easy Come, Easy go -Cry- End of melee templars

[dancemice]

<hr /> <p>Cleric</p><ul><li>Strength 3 - Bolt of Power: Also procs on spells. Interrupt chance is reduced to adjust for the change. </li><li>Strength 4 - Unwavering Resolve: Instead of increasing disruption skill, it increases maximum health by 1% per rank. It still increases Focus. </li><li>Strength 5 - Steadfast: While remaining still, grants interrupt immunity, with a chance at stifle immunity. </li><li>Agility 3 - Battle Fervor: Grants doubleattack of 4% per rank instead of DPS increase. Also increases shield effectiveness by 4% per rank. </li><li>Agility 5 - Holy Shield: Improved reuse speed from 5 minutes to 1m and it now toggles, and casting speed from 2s to 1s. Removed power cost. </li><li>Stamina 3 - Severe Judgement: Reduced melee critical chance from 12.5% to 10% per rank. </li><li>Stamina 5 - Divine Aura: Stoneskin effect now takes into consideration mitigation before determining damage. Improved reuse speed from 15 minutes to 10 minutes. </li><li>Wisdom 4 - Divine Soothing: Renamed "Exorcise" and increases all casting skills instead of hate reduction. </li><li>Wisdom 5 - Protection from Undead: Stoneskin effect now takes into consideration mitigation before determining damage. Improved reuse speed from 10 minutes to 5 minutes. </li><li>Intelligence 2 - Divine Castigation: Reduced damage.</li><li><hr /></li></ul><p>So in effect those of us who've specced for melee will have to spec for spell - Additional double attack dosn't really grant that much (At least that i can see) and reduced critical attack <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Oh well, Time to switch to a full critical casting mode. </p><p>-B-</p>

[Istaril]

80% Crit is far from the end of Melee Templars. And even further from the end of Melee Inquisitors! We just have more viable choices now... although STA/INT will remain the MT raiding templar spec of choice. STR/Int will be a very powerful Caster Spec STA/Int will continue to be a powerful MT healer spec AGI/Sta will be a very cool melee line (Double attack is much harder to get than DPS mods), and 80% crit is nothing to sneeze at.

[Kendricke]

<p>I've already begun testing builds on Test server.  </p>

[dancemice]

<p>I'm just going to point this out.</p><p> I think that the restructuration of the AA's is groundwork for either a) 12 point AA abilities - Or b) having the final ability in a tree become a level 50 limited final ability and another ability below it. (Uh 6th rank ability?)</p><p>While I'm not very impressed that my 40 dps is going away (to be replaced with 32% chance of double attacking) and my maxium chance to critical is now going to be 80% (whoopee) </p><p>If thier going to go this route, I'm hoping that we will be able to use these skills with 1h weapons instead of being limited to 2h weapons (Ie. Stamina, 2nd rank ability requires 2h hammer) and instead have it useable with both weapon types.</p><p>-B-</p>

[Kendricke]

<cite>dancemice wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I'm just going to point this out.</p><p> I think that the restructuration of the AA's is groundwork for either a) 12 point AA abilities - Or b) having the final ability in a tree become a level 50 limited final ability and another ability below it. (Uh 6th rank ability?)</p><p>While I'm not very impressed that my 40 dps is going away (to be replaced with 32% chance of double attacking) and my maxium chance to critical is now going to be 80% (whoopee) </p><p>If thier going to go this route, I'm hoping that we will be able to use these skills with 1h weapons instead of being limited to 2h weapons (Ie. Stamina, 2nd rank ability requires 2h hammer) and instead have it useable with both weapon types.</p><p>-B-</p></blockquote><p>They removed the weapon restrictions, but you apparently missed that part of the patch notes.</p><p>Ok, just ran an initial run on Test.  Results were mixed as I tried to figure out a new casting order.  Once I realized I could now use Divine Castigation (which is now on the same timer as Hammer Smite and Wonderous Buckling), I watched my DPS shoot up significantly (since I now had a strong additional damage spell to cast between smite/strike/smite sequences).  </p><p>Though they've reduced the damage on Divine Castigation, it no longer requires a 2 handed staff, and (as I mention above) shares the same timer as Hammer Smite.  Once I started to use it as part of the hybrid melee/caster battle priest I'd parsed previously (see "Truth about Templar DPS" discussion), I watched my average DPS shoot from the lower to mid 700's into the upper 800's to lower 900's on average.  </p><p>I didn't have time for a full parsing run this morning before the servers dropped, so I'll give it a go again later this evening.  I'm also curious to see some of the other builds using the new revamped Achievements.</p><p>P.S. - Before we start to see a deluge of "OMG NERF!!" posts, is it too much to ask that we actually see some facts before jumping to conclusions?  I still remember the horror of these forums after Update 13, and I'd really like to avoid that debacle if at all possible.</p>

[Mabes]

<p>Eh, I'll most likely stay sta/int, as when I have to play my templar he's always in MT group.  For the double attack one, are there any item requirements, like do you need to have a buckler equipped to get that bonus?  I'm at work so can't remember how that line looks.</p><p>Will miss having 100% melee crits, though always have dirge when raiding, so will get some of that back during raids, but will hurt solo'ing abililities of MT raid spec'd templars some.  I wouldn't worry that much about this, as other classes are getting hit much harder by the nerf stick.</p>

[Istaril]

I expect I'll go Int 4-7-8-8-2 Sta 4-4-4-8 Loose some Melee crit (3), gain some damage from the ex-staff smite. I wasn't meleeing anyway (My DPS set-up is Grizzlefazzle/Fitzpizzle/Ogham/Fingerbone Manacle/BoneClasped) - all my 1600ish dps was from spells, so I'll gain from this patch. I would be tempted to drop the stamina line for 4-4-8 in Strength, and have 7-8-8-8-2 in Int, if I wasn't MT templar. I'd imagine 448/78882 would be a <b>very</b> powerful dps spec. And I could go back to not needing Celestial Praetorate to not be overburdened <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Still, if I was still an Inquisitor, suddenly my spec would get very interesting. 32% Double Attack is too good to pass up on... (52 with yaulp!).

[Giallolas]

<p>So far, I've not seen too much we lose on this LU.  Sure, a bit of crit chance, but not earthending.  We gain double attack, nice indeed.  We are still going to be a solid melee class but now have the potential to be just mean casters.  When I first made the templar, I carried my hammer as a secondary and a prayer (smites) on my lips for primary.  I'll still continue that course and see improvements made to that set up.</p><p>This may have been posted already somewhere, but do we have an ETA for this going live yet?</p>

[Khayjames]

<cite>Giallolas wrote:</cite><blockquote>This may have been posted already somewhere, but do we have an ETA for this going live yet?</blockquote> Thursday

[EQAditu]

Plenty of good news if you use the AGI line for defensive buffing instead of DPS. Before: Shield Protection 655, Block 9.6%, 4%* parry.  (5.7/2.4% given to MT) After: Shield Protection 864, Block 11.4%, 4%* parry.  (7.4/2.4% given to MT)  [Avoidance is non-linear, so probably more than my estimate] <i>* Parry isn't as good as block verses epics, but I still see it work on Shield Ally.</i> Also, being able to use Holy Shield 3-5x more often for no power cost is nice.

[Goozman]

<p>Lol this isn't a nerf to templars, it's a huge gain. Why in the world are people even considering it a nerf?</p><p>First of all, 32% double attack is HUUUUGE compared to 40% dps. Now, with Yaulp, you have 52% double attacks. Using a blackscale maul, assuming melee crits and double attack are normalized across a delay of 3s, you will double attack and crit 99.9% of all hits. That's enormous.</p><p>Also, the Bolt of Power aa proccing off spells and melee is phenominal.</p>

[Caethre]

<cite>Goozman wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Lol this isn't a nerf to templars, it's a huge gain. Why in the world are people even considering it a nerf?</p><p>First of all, 32% double attack is HUUUUGE compared to 40% dps. Now, with Yaulp, you have 52% double attacks. Using a blackscale maul, assuming melee crits and double attack are normalized across a delay of 3s, you will double attack and crit 99.9% of all hits. That's enormous.</p><p>Also, the Bolt of Power aa proccing off spells and melee is phenominal.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600">OOC.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600">I do not understand at all what assumptions you are making here, but by my reckoning, this post is almost entirely factually incorrect.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600">Consider each skill seperately. First, Battle Fervour. I have eight ranks in this now, so it is of vital importance to me.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600">Before the nerf, with yaulp, my base double attack is 20% and my base +dps mod is 20%. Since I have eight ranks in battle fervour, my dps mod becomes +60%. Therefore, at this moment, from this skill alone, without either of these mods, my average damage was 100 units, then with both of these mods, my average damage is 100 x 1.2 x 1.6 = 192.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600">After the nerf, the +40 DPS mod from eight ranks of this skill is removed and instead I will get +32% double attack. Hence, I will have, with yaulp: +20% DPS mod and +52% double attack. Therefore, from an average damage of 100, I will have 100 x 1.52 x 1.2 = 182.4.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600">That is a loss of 5% of my melee DPS. I couldn't care less about the shield change, it's my DPS that's the limiting factor to my ability to achieve things.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600">Secondly, Severe Judgement. I have eight ranks in this too right now.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600">Regardless of what weapon you are using or what delay it has, crit % with eight ranks of this skill is dropping from 100% to 80%. This means that, on one fifth of my swings, I will no longer get a crit, I will get a normal hit. This % is not "normalized away" for certain weapon speeds. For those of us with 1:5 ratio weapons, this is a loss of 10-15% melee DPS in a single stroke.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600">The summary is, my melee DPS is going to drop overnight by 10-20% when this goes live, if it goes live in its current form. Since I primarily play solo/duo and in small groups, my DPS is the one thing of primary concern to me, since my healing and other factors are more than adequate for my playstyle.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600">This is a significant nerf in its current form. Losing that much melee DPS overnight when I already did not have as much DPS as I feel I need, does not make me happy. It is entirely unwelcome to me as a change.</span></p>

[Istaril]

Caethre - One of the most important parts of this boost, as many percieve it, is the fact that it is that 32% Double Attack is a straight up 32% dps increase over not having it, while 40% DPS is anywhere from ~45 to ~30% increase in dps. If you're in the diminishing returns section of mods, that is. In addition - in a group with bard w/DKTM, you had ~110 melee crit, 10 of which was "wasted" - now you're at 90, only a 10% loss. Someone going down agility, especially for a raiding cleric, gains avoidance (+shield from dblattack) which he can contribute to a tank (shield ally), and a very handy AoE immunity - it's certainly a boost! A templar aiming for pure solo DPS HAS lost a few things if his DPS was melee (less interupts on Str bolt, less +damage from 32% doublattack vs 40% dps, 20% less crit chance), gaining only greater flexibility in the attacks (castigation/hammer/etc). Get a +DPS adornment or two, and you might feel the double attack isn't much of a nerf (and is a buff if you're an inq!), but you will suffer a bit on the crits. A templar aiming for pure caster DPS has gained a few things; a proc on his spells (bolt), and more flexibility with the attacks (castigation/hammer). I'd highly recommend you try this build for templar dps - STR 4-4-8 Int 7-8-8-8-2. With Bone-clasped girdle, Orb of the Invoker and Grizzlefazzle mace (and blessings/smites in EoF), all of which are easy to get regardless of your guild, and fitzpizzle's misty protector - which you can quest as well - your damage will probably be considerably higher than it currently is.

[Caethre]

<cite>Istaril wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Caethre - One of the most important parts of this boost, as many percieve it, is the fact that it is that 32% Double Attack is a straight up 32% dps increase over not having it, while 40% DPS is anywhere from ~45 to ~30% increase in dps. If you're in the diminishing returns section of mods, that is. </p><p><span style="color: #ff6600">I am not in a "diminishing returns" section. Most non-raiding Templars will not be. </span><span style="color: #ff6600">For me, this will be quite simple. Assuming Yaulp is up and ignoring other gear, the current version of the ability (with eight ranks) raises +DPS from 20% to 60%, leaving double attack at 20%, whereas the new version of the ability raises double attack from 20% to 52% leaving +DPS at 20%.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600">So, this change is a (small) nerf (to me). For many, the shield bonus will more than make up for the DPS loss, but not for those of us for which that extra DPS is worth more than any extra increase in defence. Why? Because we fight normal content, and our objective is to "not fall asleep" doing it (eg doing writs or solo quests), by being able to do it at a reasonable pace.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600">Solo DPS for Templars is not exactly overpowering is it? Even with 30 less APs and nowhere near the same level of gear, I still solo more quickly and efficiently with my Fury.... even before this planned nerf.</span></p><p>In addition - in a group with bard w/DKTM, you had ~110 melee crit, 10 of which was "wasted" - now you're at 90, only a 10% loss.</p><p><span style="color: #ff6600">True, but, I am </span><span style="color: #ff6600">not speaking about groups. I am referring to solo, and to some extent to duos and trios. As it happens, I almost never group with bards. The Sever Judgement change is a *straight loss* to me, and no gain. Why? Because that's my playstyle.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600">Solo and small group play is a huge part of the playstyle of many many players, however. Even many raiders love to spend off-time out soloing things, and if they have taken Severe Judgement especially as part of their build, these changes are going to hurt them too. But of course, I am concentrating on the mediocrely equipped casual-style solo/smallgroup Templar here. Many will suffer more than I will, infact.</span></p><p>Someone going down agility, especially for a raiding cleric, gains avoidance (+shield from dblattack) which he can contribute to a tank (shield ally), and a very handy AoE immunity - it's certainly a boost! </p><p><span style="color: #ff6600">Shield Ally and AE immunity are definitely not abilities the solo and small group Templar would target, I certainly would not, as they do not assist my straight-up DPS. Similarly, defence is never an issue to the solo or small group Templar - DPS is the issue, because it is the weakest link for the Templar. So, not relevant to my comments specifically on why these changes are going to drop my DPS.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600">DPS DPS DPS. I say it repeatedly, because for the solo and small group Templar, it is THE factor that defines what they can achieve. Abilities that assist raiding are of no use to the player who never raids. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></p><p>A templar aiming for pure solo DPS HAS lost a few things if his DPS was melee </p><p><span style="color: #ff6600">Precisely. That is why I hate these changes, as overnight I am going to get nerfed. Every soloing and small group player Templar is going to get nerfed, if they spec'd for DPS like I do. Hence the feedback.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600">I already have the absolute best build a solo-DPS based Templar can get. AGI 448 STA 448 INT 4445 is the build, and the full smites line in EOF, a hybrid melee/caster build that doesnt waste time on non-DPS related abilities. The spell-slinging build is just not as high for the soloing Templar without any raid gear; I know, I have tried every combination for my playstyle, and I've been playing this class for 2 1/2 years now. As for gear, even with the fabled weapon and secondary I acquired on the broker, with plenty of adornments, I still can't kill things quickly enough in many situations, so a 10-20% DPS cut overnight is ....</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600">   <u>not making me happy</u> <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600">The last thing I want, is to be forced to play my Fury again every time I want to actually get anything done! That would be very bad.</span></p><p>(less interupts on Str bolt, less +damage from 32% doublattack vs 40% dps, 20% less crit chance), gaining only greater flexibility in the attacks (castigation/hammer/etc). </p><p><span style="color: #ff6600">Weapon flexibility does not help DPS, so it's irrelevant to me.  The STR line is being improved, yes. But it is still not the line to choose for the solo/DPS based Templar, if DPS is the only concern. Therefore, it is irrelevant.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600">The only factor that matters to me is - will I be able to achieve the same DPS on the day after these changes as I could the day before them?</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600">If the answer is no, then I have been nerfed.</span></p></blockquote>

[Istaril]

You have been - as a solo templar *with that spec* and that level of gear, you have been nerfed. I doubt anyone will dispute that. However - I think that changing for a more heavily casting-oriented build will suprise you. The proc items mentioned above, an int potion, a little shopping around for +int gear - and, although it's alot of changes, it should be rock solid. Divine Recovery (Especially for first few seconds), Maxed Facile Grace, 28% Spell Crit, a *big* hit with the 1st attack in int line, and a frequent proc on your spells = a very good spec. It's still less changes than the scouts are undergoing (especially the pvp ones I play with!) who's dual wields will all be one handers, who's aggro reducers have all been changed, and some of whom  have aa lines that have changed at least as much as ours. Finally - a note - with a good shield in the offhand you'll find your dps does improve - simply by virtue of having to cast less heals (and a good thorns proc!). I think they have done a decent job at making the aa's that were infrequently used (Agi line, Str line), excluding wisdom, much more viable and interesting, and that solo templars will find a way around the nerf. My advice, though, is leave the heavy melee'ing to the Inquisitors and try full-blown spell spec. The fact that our playstyle and gear has to adapt to the new AA set up is a necessary evil of a dynamic game.

[Kendricke]

<p>Ran some autoattack-only runs on Live and Test, and came up with a surprise (seriously, I wasn't expecting this).  My average DPS actually increased slightly:</p><p><b>LIVE:  </b>"Melee Standard" Build:  AGI: 448 STA: 448 +100% Melee criticals +60% DPS +20% double attacks +42% haste <b>Average Auto-Attack DPS:  267</b></p><p> <b>TEST:  </b>"Melee Standard" Build:  AGI: 448 STA: 448 +80% Melee criticals +20% DPS +52% double attacks +42% haste <b>Average Auto-Attack DPS:  278</b></p>

[Goozman]

Felishanna@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote><span style="color: #ff6600">This % is not "normalized away" for certain weapon speeds. For those of us with 1:5 ratio weapons, this is a loss of 10-15% melee DPS in a single stroke.</span></blockquote><p> This is where I believe you are incorrect. As far as I've known since crits were initially implemented, weapon delay and casting speed are factors in crit rates, the same as they are in proc rates.</p><p>I loaded up my monk to test crit rates with different weapons on long fights. I was comparing a 1.6 delay weapon to a 3.8 delay weapon, and while the discrepency wasn't as large as I expected, it was still there and apparent. I did 10 fights against gray ^^^'s with plenty of hitpoints for each weapon type, autoattacked only, with a 26.1% crit rate.</p><p>3.8 delay weapon showed an average 39% crit rate</p><p>1.6 delay weapon showed an average 28% crit rate</p><p>Unless you can explain why such a large difference exists in about 20 minutes of combat, I will continue to believe that crit rate, and most likely double attack rate, are based off weapon delay; and coupled with the blackscale maul, it will basically be as near as 100% as you can get.</p>

[Krymson]

Since I'm not on a pvp server and can't simply copy over to test myself, how exactly does the new Strength 5 work?  Is it a passive effect?

[Occam]

Probably not passive since none of the other #5 abilities are.

[SG_01]

<p>Hrmm, also, I think that if you double attack, and it happens to be a crit, you basically double-crit (around x4 base damage), which is nuts. Aside from that, the additional block chance could be very useful in soloing. It'll take a bit longer, but it'll still be as plausible. </p><p>Now if only I could find a good, slow, high damage, 1hb weapon to carry next to my shield <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[dancemice]

<p>I disagree with you Kendrick. And since the sony moderator will edit any reply other then saying i just disagree with you.....</p><p>I was the 4th ranked templar on blackburrow for damage. However with the new changes - The removal of the dps mod (Will drop me from 61% to 21%) Which affected both melee and spell damage i believe (Thank god for symitry though, as it affects both) i will be there fore reduced by 40% across the board. I can hardly think this will be good for me, A solo templar.</p><p>I don't think a 52% double attack will make up for the damage loss i am going to see. Previously i'd melee regularly for 2900 points of damage or so (or just 2,000 on a bad day) With the removal of certain dps i'm going to be lucky to see 2k hits in the future. </p><p>Even by adding in double attack - I don't think i'll hit such spitacular amounts in the future. </p><p>Regardless of anything i see it as a nerf, dispite everything that people say - I'm sure it won't affect a raiding templar the slightest - but to a solo/small group templar well, We'll be that much less effective. I'm sure that for damage/healing I'll start getting passed over in favor of a fury yet again.</p><p>-B-</p>

[dancemice]

<p>Oh. Irrelevent/relevent data (Meh. Can't cut and paste from sony's ranking board)</p><p>Highest melee hit -                Blackburrow Templars -             WorldWide Templars            World Wide(all chars)</p><p>                                                     Ranked 4th                           ranked 52                             ranked 1429</p><p>Just trying to say i know something about solo damage <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I wonder if i can look up others with it...</p><p>-B-</p>

[Banadux]

Can someone link to the URL showing the stuff the original poster is talking about? Thanks.

[Kendricke]

<cite>dancemice wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I disagree with you Kendrick. </p></blockquote><p>Out of curiosity, what are you disagreeing with?  I haven't posted an opinion one way or the other on these changes yet.</p><p>What I have done is spend hours (and 40 or so platinum) so far on Live and Test parsing out different combinations, and trying to come up with facts.  The numbers I'm posting aren't formed from opinion or otherwise assumed - the numbers are fact.  So, I find myself wondering what it is you're disagreeing with - the numbers?  The methodology?  The fact that I'm advocating patience over jumping to conclusions?</p><p>Regardless, whatever you happen to disagree with doesn't matter to me at the moment.  In a few weeks, the changes will go live.  Till then, I'll continue trying to find answers as best I can.  If you'd like to help, great.  You can send donations of platinum to Kendricke on Guk (to offset the cost of respecs).  </p><p>Otherwise, you're certainly welcome to refute my findings with findings of your own.  I look forward to seeing what methods you use and what numbers you come up with.</p>

[Molokan]

<p>Worldwide Melee Rank  48</p><p>Yes this is going to dampen our straight up melee DPS, and yes you will probably be able to compensate some through various strategies, but if a Templar is anything it's a support class. Here it appears we are going to do better.</p><p>Really a Templar for solo over the last 2.5 years hasn't been the optimum choice. We'll still be able to solo, just a little slower now /shrugs </p><p>To me the jury still out on these changes.</p>

[Caethre]

Molokan wrote: <blockquote><p>Really a Templar for solo over the last 2.5 years hasn't been the optimum choice.</p><p><span style="color: #ff9900">I've seen many statements of this kind over the years. Literally, they are certainly true statements - the Templar class is certainly not the optimum solo class and never was.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900">But the reality is, statements like the one quoted are 100% irrelevant to me and many players like me.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900">Many of us choose our classes for a whole range of reasons other than purely the highest solo DPS class, and we should not ever be made to feel forced to choose from a small subset of classes to be able to play solo efficiently. Whilst not every class cannot of course be precisely as good as every other, every class should be able solo reasonably efficiently, with no exceptions (unless there is a note on the EQ2 box warning us otherwise!!). It is a reasonable expectation and one that will continue to draw unhappy feedback from a large section of the playerbase if it is not met. That is the reality we see on these boards from many classes, and it should surprise noone, because most players <u>of every class</u> solo some or much of the time, and indeed, much of the game content is designed to be worked on solo (to meet that market).</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900">Templars already have low solo DPS compared to most other classes. They do NOT need it making even lower. That helps no-one. For me, if my DPS is lowered, my ability to achieve things in game is made even lower than it is now, and as a result my game experience is worsened, it is a simple equation.</span></p><p>We'll still be able to solo, just a little slower now /shrugs </p><p><span style="color: #ff9900">It may be a "shrug" issue to you. To some of us, it would be a horrendous and unnecesary nerf that would hurt our enjoyment of the game. There will be a lot more negative feedback from some of us if these changes take away some of our already-often-seemingly-barely-sufficent DPS.</span></p><p>To me the jury still out on these changes.</p><p><span style="color: #ff9900">Me too actually.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900">However, that is only because I can't actually test these changes myself yet. But even as you acknowledged, they still LOOK like a nerf to solo Templar melee DPS, and if they are, that negative point will more than cancel any possible other positive points, for me, and for many other players, even if not for you.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900">M</span><span style="color: #ff9900">y DPS is the limiting factor in my gaming with my Templar, since I am primarily a solo and small group player. It will similarly impact negatively every other Templar who values what DPS they have.</span></p></blockquote>

[Kendricke]

Felishanna@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote>However, that is only because I can't actually test these changes myself yet. But even as you acknowledged, they still LOOK like a nerf to solo Templar melee DPS, and if they are, that negative point will more than cancel any possible other positive points, for me, and for many other players, even if not for you. </blockquote><p>I've already run parses with your build that show a slight increase in DPS.  Others have speculated on the reasoning for such a possibility.</p><p>Adaptation will likely be needed.  Whether it's adding a  new spell or achievement to a line up, or switching a slow weapon for a fast one, I'm confident we'll find a way to increase DPS - certainly to acceptable levels based on what I'm seeing on Test so far.</p><p>By the way, SOE did announce beta buffers on PVP Test... (buffs to level 70 with 75 achievements, and supplies appropriate level gear and spells).  There's no reason more of you can't test some builds - especially with the unlimited respecs on Test right now.  </p>

[LowfyrWildforge]

<p>There are two ways to produce Templar DPS:  Nuking and Meleeing.    Most Templars who are doing DPS in groups are doing it through melee, mainly because of a) the limitations from smite wrath, b) the fact that if you're spending time on spells nuking, you're not healing, where as you can drop and start melee pretty much instantly.</p><p>Now, if the changes mean more DPS, then that's fine and dandy.  But a DPS nerf at this point could completely destroy the viability of the melee templar, which is a very sad thing.</p><p>Let's also not discount the possibility of the patented inflationary nerf, that we've seen a number of times.  For those of you who don't know what that is, let me give you an example.  This isn't cynical, it's just how it is, and it's happened in a lot of MMORPGS:</p><p>Game developer:  Your class was underpowered, so we gave you a 10 percent DPS increase.</p><p>Reality:  We increased all the mobs' hit points and corresponding regeneration by 12 percent.</p><p>It's understandable that people would be nervous about their favorite playstyles.  I'm not saying you're wrong, Kendricke, I'm just saying there are probably a lot of people who want real reassurance they aren't getting nerfed.</p>

[Kendricke]

<cite>LowfyrWildforge wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm just saying there are probably a lot of people who want real reassurance they aren't getting nerfed.</blockquote> ...and I'd agree completely:  <a href="http://kendricke.wordpress.com/2007/06/15/all-we-have-to-fear/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">All We Have to Fear</a>.

[StevusX]

<p>A good post in that link Kendricke.</p><p>Rats - now i have to go wash my mouth out ........<img src="/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Kendricke]

<p><b>TEST:  </b>"Melee Standard" Build:  AGI: 448 STA: 448 +100% Melee criticals +20% DPS +52% double attacks +42% haste <b>Average Auto-Attack DPS:  291</b></p>