Want to be sad?

[Goldom111111111]

Brainstorm goes down to 4%. Freehand down to 10% @ rank 1. Sta and Int are still useless. Check out test-update notes.

[IamIkari]

That would be so incredibly lame.

[Avokk]

Lame, yes, it actually is a flat out nerf Instead of giving INT line some real usefullness, they decrease the desirability of other lines so some wizards will actually select it... Sorry but i don't think reducing agro abilities will be THAT usefull if we cant  generate enough hate DPS'ing with all those nerfs... What about giving us some luvin to compensate that nerf ? 1) Why not up the Sagacity power reduction from -12% to -24% ? 2) Why not allow us to use WIS line with a Shield / Symbol equipped in secondary slot ? 3) Why not create an entire new INT line and combine the current INT line abilities into the other lines ? eg : Brainstorm at level 8 could now be 4% base damage increase and -4% hate reduction all across the board ? Suggestions for new INT line : - Raidwide buffs (cold-heat-power buff) - Mental Toughness buff (Can't be charmed-Stunned-Stifled) - Power regen ability (Wizard self FT50 buff, whatever that will net in more power on a SIGNIFICANT fashion...) - Focussed intellect buff (Passive self proc / crit buff - Could add 8% to proc triggers on worn items or cut in half the timers eg : Instead of 1.8 times a min, could proc 1.8 times per 30 secs...) - Mental trick (Debuff that could stick to epic mobs that could affect the way they cast spells, like adding time to their recasts, preventing them to reuse the next spell they cast for a fixed period like 10 secs at rank 1, 1 min at rank 8 <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Now that would probably improve the desirability of an utterly, as it is now, useless line that noone will use before the other lines provide negative effects...

[IllusiveThoughts]

<p>anyone else go [I cannot control my vocabulary] at this news?</p><p>I mean doesn't SOE learn from their mistakes?</p><p>I cant comprehend this.  You give players an ability for over a year, they get used to it, then you NERF it.  WTFubar</p>

[Generic123]

<p>Nerfs happen, and it the Wis line did seem like a candidate.  I'm disappointed we still can't use a symbol though, it makes my investment in a fabled adornment for my 1H rather useless if I have to go out looking for a 2H staff.  </p><p>It's a PITA, but not crippling.  The nerfs to hate transfers has me a little more worried.  Sure it will reduce the gap between Wizards and the scout classes as far as risk goes, but it looks like it's also costing the MT 250 hate per second (41% reduced to 27%).  That will hurt my DPS more then the changes to the Wis line.  My guess is the pet classes will come out best.  </p>

[Dextera]

<p>Haha. C'mon people, really? We got off EASY compared to many of the other classes. Do some research, find out what the other classes are experiencing, and then see if this small nerf is worth crying over. It was inevitable, accept it, whining will get nothing done now.</p><p>Hell, at least our resist rates didn't get bumped down -45%, a la Tenderwood.</p>

[JohnDoe058]

<p>We got double-nerfed (reduction to swash and assassin hate xfer means more squished wizzies), whereas summoners avoided the nerfbat outright.</p><p>Yeah, now we're really gonna need that INT line, just to do far less DPS than scouts and summoners.</p><p>We didn't need this nerf; this is ludicrous.  We're barely worthly of a raid spot as is.</p><p>All I can say, is that we better get some darn good spells in RoK. </p>

[duuf]

While it is sad the nerf is mitigated somewhat by the ability to use a two hander. By switching from the wand of second life to the staff of the silent star (there are much better 2 handers never needed one til now) my damage went up 1%,my power pool by 2.75%, and my health pool 5%.

[Goldom111111111]

Question - people are saying you still can't use an offhand item. If this is the case, why the nerf at all? Cause you -can- wear a 2h? But if you're not, then there's no benefit. When I read the notes I didn't read it as saying still no 2nd hand item, but is that how it really is on test now?

[Alku]

LU36 is when the weapon requirements are coming -- more changes to AA tree's will be following after. That said, you was fooling yourself if you thought this would last. Any wizard who did his research would know that the wisdom line was no-doubt the best line we get no matter what purpose -- that defeats the point in aa specialization when everyone has an easy choice. Strength / Agility, here I come!

[Minlas]

<li>Wisdom 2 - Freehand Sorcery: No longer requires no weapon equipped, but reduced bonus to begin at 10% at rank 1. However now it stacks with Brainstorm and other spell damage increase achievements. </li><li>Wisdom 3 - Ward of Sages: No longer requires no weapon equipped. Only protects against non-physical damage. </li><li>Wisdom 4 - Brainstorm: No longer requires no weapon equipped, but reduced bonus to 0.5% per rank. However now it stacks with Freehand Sorcery and other spell damage increase achievements. </li><li>Wisdom 5 - Sagacity: Effect stacks with other achievements that reduce power cost.</li><p> Everyone was probably already on same page and knew what people were talking about but just in case. I don't see the logic behind: "since a line is good or currently the one people choose .....it has to be nerfed."</p><p>Personally, call me insane, a better move would be to increase the effectiveness of other lines... to challenge that line. Anyone saying a decreasing of HALF from 8% to 4% brainstorm isn't huge ..well boggle. Leave wisdom alone besides making things work... like everything correctly stacking. Besides fixing the stuff that should have always worked it was just a list of nerfs. Freehand going from 28% to 22% isn't nothing to scoff at either.</p>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<p>man I'm dissapointed, all the passionate wizards must of quit eq2 by now. (including me)  even though I barely play this still pisses me off.</p><p>People saying this was comming and all that should remove their lips from SOE's rear end.</p>

[SacDaddy420]

 We are still here IT, most of us just frequent the "other" forums more these days.....   Thanks for droppin my damage down 4% SoE.   Sweet [Removed for Content] move.  Oh ya, Dirges arent rezzin enough these days....so thx for droppin that hate gain too.   That'll teach those slackers.  Whatever.   I'll still find a way to rock, baby.  You can't hold me down.

[daray]

Goldom@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>Question - people are saying you still can't use an offhand item. If this is the case, why the nerf at all? Cause you -can- wear a 2h? But if you're not, then there's no benefit. When I read the notes I didn't read it as saying still no 2nd hand item, but is that how it really is on test now? </blockquote> From my understanding of the test notes, you will either be able to use a 2 handed weapon, or a 1 hander + symbol with the wisdom line ... i think the wording was probably just unclear

[UUCyberSte]

<cite>IllusiveThoughts wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>man I'm dissapointed, all the passionate wizards must of quit eq2 by now. (including me)  even though I barely play this still pisses me off.</p><p>People saying this was comming and all that should remove their lips from SOE's rear end.</p></blockquote>ROTFLMAO ... Didn't I say this 8 months when EoF was coming out ... you, and others, blew me off as insane.  Oh, but now you are saying the same thing.   Hypocrits ... <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[IllusiveThoughts]

<cite>UUCyberSteve wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>IllusiveThoughts wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>man I'm dissapointed, all the passionate wizards must of quit eq2 by now. (including me)  even though I barely play this still pisses me off.</p><p>People saying this was comming and all that should remove their lips from SOE's rear end.</p></blockquote>ROTFLMAO ... Didn't I say this 8 months when EoF was coming out ... you, and others, blew me off as insane.  Oh, but now you are saying the same thing.   Hypocrits ... <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote><p> <img src="/smilies/0a4d7238daa496a758252d0a2b1a1384.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I have no idea what you're talking about, nor would I remember some forum debate 8 months ago unless it was still presently debated today.</p><p>Care to refresh my memory?</p>

[UUCyberSte]

Here's the original thread  ("Stop Playing a Wizard";): <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=163937" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=163937</a> Yes, no one called me "insane", at the same time I said Wizards were gimped back then and said to abandon them ... I still feel that we're gimped ... now you're saying to abandon the class.  Just interesting to see how the tide has turned.  Nothing more than that observation...

[Jeeshman]

<cite>IllusiveThoughts wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>man I'm dissapointed, all the passionate wizards must of quit eq2 by now. (including me)  even though I barely play this still pisses me off.</p><p>People saying this was comming and all that should remove their lips from SOE's rear end.</p></blockquote>Woah--when Illusive lodges this sort of a complaint, I stand up and take notice.  IT, you are one of the most-highly regarded Wizard players in the game; thanks to your Raiding Guide I can compete with anybody for top DPS-age.  Up until now, I was fine with the changes but now I'm very interested in knowing what pisses you off about 'em. Here's why I haven't been all that concerned.  Although I haven't done any actual math on it yet, assuming we are allowed to now equip a 1H, a secondary item/symbol, and a ranged item/symbol (and I think we are--I think SOE's wording in its announcement was unintentionally innacurate), the ability to do so will make up for most or all of the DPS loss due to the Wis line nerfs.  IOW, the overall increase to DPS I will experience because now I can equip Grizzfazzles + Fitzpitzle's Misty Protector + Arm of Mithaniel (resulting in 30 more INT and a 10% chance to proc 370-970 magic damage on a successful spell) will make up for the fact that every x seconds my Freehand Sorcery won't add quite as much damage as before. Will that also make up for the 4% drop in Brainstorm?  Maybe it will, especially since now Freehand Sorcery 'stacks' with it.  But maybe not.  If it doesn't, this actually opens up some interesting alternatives, such as going down the Agi line for fast casting, maxing out the Str line's increase to overall Crit chance, and maxing (to the extent possible) Freehand Sorcery.  I'll prolly try that--it'll be interesting to have NO end-line Sorcery AA. The bottom line is that I've been thinking the changes won't result in much of a change to our DPS. IT, d'ya think I'm smoking crack? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Are you more P.O.'d about the hate/aggro changes than the changes to the Wis line?  I was adopting a "wait and see" approach to the aggro changes because lately I've been able to pull off casting Ice Nova + Fusion almost immediately after a pull (Pally Amends on me, plus I have the Skywatcher's Robe, Arm of Mithaniel and the Hoop of the Lost Mind, which all proc aggro reduction).  Anyway, inquiring minds want to know.

[Mirander_1]

Well, even if a symbol can be equipped with the new wis line (is there anyone on Test who can actually confirm that one way or the other?), the dps levels won't reach the levels it currently does on Live; or at least it shouldn't, as a large part of the reason for the AA changes was nerf the excessively powerful lines and buff-up the useless lines.

[Minlas]

<p>"excessively powerful lines"</p><p>The fact that one TYPE of wizard usually picked wisdom doesn't make it overpowered... that is the raid wizard. In fact having a line that most people agreed on doesn't make it overpowered. Being overpowered makes it overpowered. I.e. if the AA line overpowers wizards in comparison to other classes that would be overpowered. If the line is fine as far as power balance goes but is one of the preferred lines.. AND there is a great desire to have people choose different various lines for whatever reason....then the other lines need to come up in utility. Of course this is once again only considering one TYPE of wizards:raid wizards: to make them more useful or picked by that specific type of wizard. I think people are already choosing various lines...based on how they play.</p><p>The reason why I say this is because in general some of us tend to forget there is a few other types of wizards that play the game. Solo, group, and PVP players. </p><p>The effectiveness and need for a deagro in a group setting... especially a pickup group is pretty immense. Even with items such as rainment of the skywatcher/hoop of the lost mind/Fingerless Gloves of the Quiet and weapon adorns with the deaggro... aggro easily happens.  Dead wizards dps less that live ones. Group wizards also may not have a fury's int buff like a raid wizard should and the extra points from the int line would be a bigger boon. Deaggro abilities plus self buffed higher intelligence, makes int a choice for the group wizard. </p><p>When you have a good tank+ dirge and coercer and assassin/hate transfer in mt group they SHOULD be able to hold aggro... with dirge and coerver classes that is a big reason they are in high demand for raids. In this situation I think aggro should be able to be held without a wizard having an AA line devoted to it, as plenty of raids have a problem getting all four.  Basically should 4 classes easily hold the aggro of one who very well may have a hate decrese(troub or pally) as well making it 5... of course.... though sometimes it already doesn't happen.  With lowered hate transfers across the board, instead of upping wizards hate transfer which has actually been requested,  wizard aggro problems will become a even bigger issue.</p><p>I think in general, what may be saw as less desirable lines to raid wizards has different levels of utility to group/solo/pvp wizards and nothing wrong with that.  </p><p>Is three lines(of 5) enough for raid wizards to choose amongst and leave Stat and Int to mostly pvp/group/solo players?  I think so.  If for whatever reason there "needs" to be more diveristy in what lines wizards choose then simply increase the effectiveness of str (higher crits percentages) and agi(faster casting) to where they are as equally desirable as wisdom, and then which people will choose will be based upon play style. </p><p>In the end <u>fixing</u> the stackability of the wis line is a great idea, as would be improving Agi and Str to make them a toss up as to which of the 3 to pick.  A postive wisdown tweak would be a better power consumption as already mentioned because in long fights wizards really bite on power consumption.  However the ability to wield a symbol or two one handers or a two hander is not worth lowering brainstorm by half, lowering freehand by 6% or 21% of it's previous total, and weaking an already lame ward of sages. </p>

[HippyKnight]

<p>IllusiveThoughts wrote: </p><blockquote><p>man I'm dissapointed, all the passionate wizards must of quit eq2 by now. (including me)  even though I barely play this still pisses me off.</p><p>People saying this was comming and all that should remove their lips from SOE's rear end.</p></blockquote> Then again whats the point of posting in the wiz forums... they stop at n and never get to w.. post in the in testing feedback imho..

[IllusiveThoughts]

<cite>UUCyberSteve wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here's the original thread  ("Stop Playing a Wizard"<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />: <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=163937" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=163937</a> Yes, no one called me "insane", at the same time I said Wizards were gimped back then and said to abandon them ... I still feel that we're gimped ... now you're saying to abandon the class.  Just interesting to see how the tide has turned.  Nothing more than that observation... </blockquote><p> Steve, I have not stated to abandon the class.  I looked over my previous posts and haven't stated so.</p><p>I did make a point that back when I was avidly playing/posting there used to be a lot more activity on this forum(wizard) and lots of topics/debates from some of the more "vocal" raiding wizards.  And if most of them were still posting here they would be raising hell.  That was my point.  </p><p>I left to play vanguard, not because I felt the wizard was underpowered.</p>

[IllusiveThoughts]

Shaydu@Everfrost wrote: <blockquote><cite>IllusiveThoughts wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>man I'm dissapointed, all the passionate wizards must of quit eq2 by now. (including me)  even though I barely play this still pisses me off.</p><p>People saying this was comming and all that should remove their lips from SOE's rear end.</p></blockquote>Woah--when Illusive lodges this sort of a complaint, I stand up and take notice.  IT, you are one of the most-highly regarded Wizard players in the game; thanks to your Raiding Guide I can compete with anybody for top DPS-age.  Up until now, I was fine with the changes but now I'm very interested in knowing what pisses you off about 'em. Here's why I haven't been all that concerned.  Although I haven't done any actual math on it yet, assuming we are allowed to now equip a 1H, a secondary item/symbol, and a ranged item/symbol (and I think we are--I think SOE's wording in its announcement was unintentionally innacurate), the ability to do so will make up for most or all of the DPS loss due to the Wis line nerfs.  IOW, the overall increase to DPS I will experience because now I can equip Grizzfazzles + Fitzpitzle's Misty Protector + Arm of Mithaniel (resulting in 30 more INT and a 10% chance to proc 370-970 magic damage on a successful spell) will make up for the fact that every x seconds my Freehand Sorcery won't add quite as much damage as before. Will that also make up for the 4% drop in Brainstorm?  Maybe it will, especially since now Freehand Sorcery 'stacks' with it.  But maybe not.  If it doesn't, this actually opens up some interesting alternatives, such as going down the Agi line for fast casting, maxing out the Str line's increase to overall Crit chance, and maxing (to the extent possible) Freehand Sorcery.  I'll prolly try that--it'll be interesting to have NO end-line Sorcery AA. The bottom line is that I've been thinking the changes won't result in much of a change to our DPS. IT, d'ya think I'm smoking crack? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Are you more P.O.'d about the hate/aggro changes than the changes to the Wis line?  I was adopting a "wait and see" approach to the aggro changes because lately I've been able to pull off casting Ice Nova + Fusion almost immediately after a pull (Pally Amends on me, plus I have the Skywatcher's Robe, Arm of Mithaniel and the Hoop of the Lost Mind, which all proc aggro reduction).  Anyway, inquiring minds want to know. </blockquote><p>You have to consider 2 things about the nerfs(dps and hate).  They are % based.</p><p>% based buffs/abilities scale up indefinately.  In otherwords, as we gained more levels (future expansions) and achieved higher damage abilities wisdoms 8% boost gets more and more and more effective.  Add in that the boost also increased proc damage and you can see the straight 4% nerf to the line will cripple the future wizard's dps as well as the current ones.</p><p>Also since once again its % based, stacking up other % modifiyers on it (such as max raid debuff 50% boost, wand proc ect) this loweres the TOTAL dps capacity that the wizard can acheive.  In otherwords the nerf to brainstorm / freehand is a "ceeling" nerf, reducing the max capacity that a wizard can produce.  This is most easily seen via use of manaburn, which just got 4% of its dps chopped off it.  </p><p>30 more int wont make up for the loss in %(largely in part due to diminishing returns), neither would a good spell proc item, because they are not % based mods, so no matter how you look at it, we get a max dps nerf even with equipping a secondary that has a good dps proc.</p><p>On top of that hate gain/transfer buffs get nerfed in conjuction without any wiz specific abilities getting boosted (ceace/concussive ect) which means yet again more MAX dps nerfs.</p><p>The two together are a one-two punch to the wizards dps at the upper end of the scale.</p><p>Thats the logical part I disagree with.</p><p>The other part is a historical disagreement.  Its not fair to nerf AA abilities that players have had and used for over a year.</p><p>The best arguement I can think up is a Historical one, much like the brittish colonies on north america, who revolted against the brittish because of the newly imposed taxing laws.  If anyone is unfamilliar with this history lesson, the colonies were essentially living without *enforced* rules and regulations for an extended period of time.  Then once the Brittish attempted to impose those rules and taxing laws they revolted, and now we have the good ole USA.</p><p>The point being that you should not give players an ability for so long, and then up and decide to change(nerf) it, without any justification or reasoning posted why.</p><p>This just puts a sour taste in my mouth with regards to how this was handled.  Giving us the ability to use our secondary without nerfing wisdom line is the only logical course of action.  Expansions / revamps should be POSITIVE ones, not NEGATIVE ones.  The STA/INT/AGI/STR lines could just as easily been BOOSTED to equal Wisdoms dps enhancement from equipping a secondary, but instead they took the easy ([Removed for Content]) route of nerfing wisdom.</p>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<cite>HippyKnight wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>IllusiveThoughts wrote: </p><blockquote><p>man I'm dissapointed, all the passionate wizards must of quit eq2 by now. (including me)  even though I barely play this still pisses me off.</p><p>People saying this was comming and all that should remove their lips from SOE's rear end.</p></blockquote> Then again whats the point of posting in the wiz forums... they stop at n and never get to w.. post in the in testing feedback imho..</blockquote> even though we never get developer responses in the wizard class forums, I would like to think that the class balance dev does still read the forums.  They may not agree with most of the ideas and concearns posted here, and probably just choose not to post about it, or they may be "muzzled" by SOE to not post on the forums and let the community manager post for them.  I honestly dont know.  However posting wizard specific issues belongs here, even if it may not be responded to by developers.

[shadowgate]

Yes, we need to keep posting here...especially those who have first hand experience from on TEST. I am just waiting for any response back on this from the DEVS other than the one from Lockeye about there being a free respect that will come with this. They had to know that they where going to get HUGE backlash on this! They should have had some response ready...or not! <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Mirander_1]

<cite>Minlas wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>"excessively powerful lines"</p><p>The fact that one TYPE of wizard usually picked wisdom doesn't make it overpowered... that is the raid wizard. In fact having a line that most people agreed on doesn't make it overpowered. Being overpowered makes it overpowered. I.e. if the AA line overpowers wizards in comparison to other classes that would be overpowered. If the line is fine as far as power balance goes but is one of the preferred lines.. AND there is a great desire to have people choose different various lines for whatever reason....then the other lines need to come up in utility. Of course this is once again only considering one TYPE of wizards:raid wizards: to make them more useful or picked by that specific type of wizard. I think people are already choosing various lines...based on how they play.</p><p>The reason why I say this is because in general some of us tend to forget there is a few other types of wizards that play the game. Solo, group, and PVP players. </p><p>The effectiveness and need for a deagro in a group setting... especially a pickup group is pretty immense. Even with items such as rainment of the skywatcher/hoop of the lost mind/Fingerless Gloves of the Quiet and weapon adorns with the deaggro... aggro easily happens.  Dead wizards dps less that live ones. Group wizards also may not have a fury's int buff like a raid wizard should and the extra points from the int line would be a bigger boon. Deaggro abilities plus self buffed higher intelligence, makes int a choice for the group wizard. </p><p>When you have a good tank+ dirge and coercer and assassin/hate transfer in mt group they SHOULD be able to hold aggro... with dirge and coerver classes that is a big reason they are in high demand for raids. In this situation I think aggro should be able to be held without a wizard having an AA line devoted to it, as plenty of raids have a problem getting all four.  Basically should 4 classes easily hold the aggro of one who very well may have a hate decrese(troub or pally) as well making it 5... of course.... though sometimes it already doesn't happen.  With lowered hate transfers across the board, instead of upping wizards hate transfer which has actually been requested,  wizard aggro problems will become a even bigger issue.</p><p>I think in general, what may be saw as less desirable lines to raid wizards has different levels of utility to group/solo/pvp wizards and nothing wrong with that.  </p><p>Is three lines(of 5) enough for raid wizards to choose amongst and leave Stat and Int to mostly pvp/group/solo players?  I think so.  If for whatever reason there "needs" to be more diveristy in what lines wizards choose then simply increase the effectiveness of str (higher crits percentages) and agi(faster casting) to where they are as equally desirable as wisdom, and then which people will choose will be based upon play style. </p><p>In the end <u>fixing</u> the stackability of the wis line is a great idea, as would be improving Agi and Str to make them a toss up as to which of the 3 to pick.  A postive wisdown tweak would be a better power consumption as already mentioned because in long fights wizards really bite on power consumption.  However the ability to wield a symbol or two one handers or a two hander is not worth lowering brainstorm by half, lowering freehand by 6% or 21% of it's previous total, and weaking an already lame ward of sages. </p></blockquote>The usefullness of the wis line isn't really one that depends on playstyle.  The wis, str, and agi lines all basically serve the same purpose: to increase our DPS, and that's a function that's useful for soloers, groupers, and raiders.  When I say that wis is "excessively powerful",  I mean that the wis line is more powerful than the str and agi lines, and those two lines are obviously the baseline the devs are using to try to rebalance the Sorcerer AAs. As for the other two lines, your right, that they are useful in non-raid situations; I'm personally a str/sta soloer, and the added defense from the sta line is useful.  I don't know how useful the int line is, simply because I don't use it, and never hear of anyone else using it; but the fact that just about everyone else has had their deaggro nerfed may mean that more people will take the int line. As for buffing the other lines up to the level of the wis line (and, of course, doing the same with all the other classes' AAs), it won't happen because increasing almost all the AA lines runs the very real risk of trivializing PvE combat, unless the devs then want to go through the trouble of buffing all mobs up to a similar level of power.

[Generic123]

<p>I think there is some potential to these changes for the game overall, but they are going to have cascade effects that need to be addressed.  As long as they are addressed and at the end of the day things are balanced out for everyone I have no problem accepting a nerf.  </p><p>I also suggest you talk to people who played this class when the game was released.  This minor nerf is nothing; Wizard is still a perfectly viable class.  That is something that was not always the case.  </p><p>Our efforts are better spent talking about aggro issues and about the fact that we are going to get [Removed for Content] on spell progression in RoK unless they give us something nifty.  Too much of your current DPS comes from Ice Nova which gets no upgrade in the next expansion.  Making sure the devs realize this is far more important then the 3% DPS loss we are talking about here. </p>

[setesh]

It's clear that WIS was by a wide margin the most powerful of the damage-enhancing sorcerer lines.  It alone allowed a sorcerer to burn more than 8% harder for 12% longer and that's clearly a bigger boost than they wanted any single line to give.  It's unfortunate they didn't correct this issue sooner but that doesn't mean the issue shouldn't be corrected. For those that believe that STR and AGI should have been improved to match WIS, please keep in mind balance is a zero-sum problem.  If WIS was already too powerful relative to the difficulty of the world and you increase STR and AGI to make them equally powerful, the world will necessarily need adjustment upward to make it more difficult.  You end up in exactly the same place.

[IllusiveThoughts]

<cite>Mirander_1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The usefullness of the wis line isn't really one that depends on playstyle.  The wis, str, and agi lines all basically serve the same purpose: to increase our DPS, and that's a function that's useful for soloers, groupers, and raiders.  When I say that wis is "excessively powerful",  I mean that the wis line is more powerful than the str and agi lines, and those two lines are obviously the baseline the devs are using to try to rebalance the Sorcerer AAs. As for the other two lines, your right, that they are useful in non-raid situations; I'm personally a str/sta soloer, and the added defense from the sta line is useful.  I don't know how useful the int line is, simply because I don't use it, and never hear of anyone else using it; but the fact that just about everyone else has had their deaggro nerfed may mean that more people will take the int line. As for buffing the other lines up to the level of the wis line (and, of course, doing the same with all the other classes' AAs), it won't happen because increasing almost all the AA lines runs the very real risk of trivializing PvE combat, unless the devs then want to go through the trouble of buffing all mobs up to a similar level of power. </p></blockquote><p>How does allowing wizards to equip a secondary & keep the same bonus's from wisdom trivialize PVE combat? (this is a wizard issue we are talking about not other classes)</p><p>Also how does bumping up str/agi/int/sta unbalance pve or the mobs?  Raid gear already trivializes that.</p>

[LiquidFlex]

<cite>JohnDoe058 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>We got double-nerfed (reduction to swash and assassin hate xfer means more squished wizzies), <i><b>whereas summoners avoided the nerfbat outright</b></i>.</p></blockquote>BS. Obviously you don't have a summoner. Yes we got a few changes that will help, but they are minute... like now our primary pet will <i><b>always</b></i> be in the pet window and charmed ones will not override it. Thank [insert deity here] that finally happened. But that is by no means a 'bump' to our effectiveness. Every class got hit in some way or another. Everyone needs to realize that this is going to happen. They even told you it would happen. It is to try and <i>balance</i> the AA of the classes respectively. Yes okay you don't like certain changes to your already preferred AA lines... but then again who the hell does? We've all obviously grown comfortable with what we already had. Oh well deal with it. If it means that hate is going to be more difficult to control, the so be it. I think it will make things more interesting. And I'm sure the changes aren't as bad as some like to think they are. Just give it a chance before your knee-jerk reaction starts a landslide of '<i>omg we got nerfed any nobody else did</i>'... I'm not flaming, I'm just stating the obvious facts.

[IllusiveThoughts]

<cite>setesh wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's clear that WIS was by a wide margin the most powerful of the damage-enhancing sorcerer lines.  It alone allowed a sorcerer to burn more than 8% harder for 12% longer and that's clearly a bigger boost than they wanted any single line to give.  It's unfortunate they didn't correct this issue sooner but that doesn't mean the issue shouldn't be corrected. For those that believe that STR and AGI should have been improved to match WIS, please keep in mind balance is a zero-sum problem.  If WIS was already too powerful relative to the difficulty of the world and you increase STR and AGI to make them equally powerful, the world will necessarily need adjustment upward to make it more difficult.  You end up in exactly the same place. </blockquote><p> Not true, the mobs (world) needs no adjusting, wizards are meant to be one of the top damage dealers.   Therefore our aa tree SHOULD be the most damage oriented/enhancing.</p><p>Also WIS wins because thats what the majority of the player base agreed upon.  I keep circiling around a post that the old community manager made, that stated something like "no matter how many choices we give there will always be min/maxers, and eventually everyone will agree upon a "best" line even if they are very close to each other in terms of effectivenes".</p><p>Clearly wisdoms equalization was the loss of a secondary, but the problem was that one of STR abilties req a 2 hander, and one of agi's req a 1 hander, thus making some lines incompatable.  Removing the weapon requirements allows for more compatable lines and choices.  It does and I'll agree to the point make WIS the best line after the requirement is removed.  </p><p>However, that does not mean it should just get blindly nerfed, thats the easy road, quick fix, pull a sheet over our eyes crap they do before every expasion, I see no issues with giving wizards a boost in AA effectiveness with this huge re-do (in all lines) without giving any nerfs.  In otherwords boosting str/agi/int/sta up to wis "effectiveness"</p>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<cite>LiquidFlex wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>JohnDoe058 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>We got double-nerfed (reduction to swash and assassin hate xfer means more squished wizzies), <i><b>whereas summoners avoided the nerfbat outright</b></i>.</p></blockquote>BS. Obviously you don't have a summoner. Yes we got a few changes that will help, but they are minute... like now our primary pet will <i><b>always</b></i> be in the pet window and charmed ones will not override it. Thank [insert deity here] that finally happened. But that is by no means a 'bump' to our effectiveness. Every class got hit in some way or another. Everyone needs to realize that this is going to happen. They even told you it would happen. It is to try and <i>balance</i> the AA of the classes respectively. Yes okay you don't like certain changes to your already preferred AA lines... but then again who the hell does? We've all obviously grown comfortable with what we already had. Oh well deal with it. If it means that hate is going to be more difficult to control, the so be it. I think it will make things more interesting. And I'm sure the changes aren't as bad as some like to think they are. Just give it a chance before your knee-jerk reaction starts a landslide of '<i>omg we got nerfed any nobody else did</i>'... I'm not flaming, I'm just stating the obvious facts. </blockquote><p>thanks for your POV on summoners, I have to ask though that the post you quoted explicitly stated you got hardly nerfed in your aa tree's at all, yet your only reply was BS.  Generally when countering a point, you provide information to support  your claim.  Oddly enough your entire reply was centered around a "suck it up" sort of reply and "deal with it" not a single response about any summoner aa nerfs other than "bs".</p><p>Summoners dont have the same hate issues that sorcerors (wiz/warlock) do that is a well established fact.  Nerfing hate doesn't have the same impact on you as it does us.  Please understand that next time you tell us to suck it up. </p>

[UUCyberSte]

<cite>Mirander_1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Minlas wrote: The usefullness of the wis line isn't really one that depends on playstyle.  The wis, str, and agi lines all basically serve the same purpose: to increase our DPS, and that's a function that's useful for soloers, groupers, and raiders.  When I say that wis is "excessively powerful",  I mean that the wis line is more powerful than the str and agi lines, and those two lines are obviously the baseline the devs are using to try to rebalance the Sorcerer AAs. As for the other two lines, your right, that they are useful in non-raid situations; I'm personally a str/sta soloer, and the added defense from the sta line is useful.  I don't know how useful the int line is, simply because I don't use it, and never hear of anyone else using it; but the fact that just about everyone else has had their deaggro nerfed may mean that more people will take the int line. ... </blockquote> I partly agree ... When I strickly solo'd (lvl 70 / 90 AA) I took AGI/STA for maximum surviveability.  WIS was worthless as I have v.good FT and used a good mit/resist shield.  (ie I stayed alive much much better)  Sure, the battles may last 2-4 spells longer, but still faster than most classes soloing. I switched to WIS/AGI to only raid ... now I have the DPS, but die a lot more.  I could survive longer in raids with the AGI/STA, but then have DPS like an SK <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Play style (via AA selection) makes a difference, but WIS line is not necessary outside of raiding.  Either way, I still feel the wizard class is under-powered / unblalance. .02 - Frostwynn

[Minlas]

<p><b>-Mirander_1</b> "The usefullness of the wis line isn't really one that depends on playstyle." Actually it is... it is based on you being a raider as other lines are just as or more so powerful to soloers/pvp/group players. </p><p>"When I say that wis is "excessively powerful",  I mean that the wis line is more powerful than the str and agi lines, and those two lines are obviously the baseline the devs are using to try to rebalance the Sorcerer AAs." This seems to indicate the wisdom line is overpowered..i.e. that it's presence  unbalances a wizard. I have never saw this to be the case. In fact a lot of people will tell you otherwise about current wizard balance.</p><p>"As for buffing the other lines up to the level of the wis line (and, of course, doing the same with all the other classes' AAs), it won't happen because increasing almost all the AA lines runs the very real risk of trivializing PvE combat, unless the devs then want to go through the trouble of buffing all mobs up to a similar level of power." If wisdom was overpowered(read: it overpowered wizards vs other classes) , which there is no sign that it does, then increasing other lines to match it wouldn't make sense. However the IF , is the problem. Otherwise matching str/agi to it just means they might get picked instead of it.</p><p><b>-Generic123</b> "Our efforts are better spent talking about aggro issues and about the fact that we are going to get [Removed for Content] on spell progression in RoK unless they give us something nifty.  Too much of your current DPS comes from Ice Nova which gets no upgrade in the next expansion.  Making sure the devs realize this is far more important then the 3% DPS loss we are talking about here. " That is a slippery slope thinking no? I didn't stand up when they came for our dps, kinda of thinking.. and at some point they want to put you in a dress and call you Sally and with you current abilities ..you might as well.  Well lets ignore this but that better mean we don't also get screwed on this other thing, which there are no gaurantees and we might not get heard on it either.</p><p><b>-setesh</b> "that's clearly a bigger boost than they wanted any single line to give." Is it? Or is what has occurrred to the wisdom line is so that sorceror AA's fit into the new no weapon/symbol/free hand requirements concept? Versus your assumption, one might assume wisdom was just fine as far as the overall impact that it had on wizard's power in comparison to other classes. To keep wisdom in line and still use an offhand they balance it too much for the gain of a symbol.</p><p>"the world will necessarily need adjustment upward to make it more difficult." Only is wisdom already was causing wizards to be too powerful, to which I disagree. Remember it being the best AA line or more powerful than STR/AGI doesn't mean that wizards are overpowered chuckle. I think wizards could use a bump not a nerf to bring them in line with their supposed T1 dps rating.</p><p><b>-LiquidFlex </b>You quoted JohnDoe058 as saying "whereas summoners avoided the nerfbat outright." and disagreed by saying "But that is by no means a 'bump' to our effectiveness." Your talking about not getting a bump, he is saying avoided a nerf. You didn't mention any specific nerf ..or any nerf at all..much less one that you felt was equal to what occurred to sorcs. Nor is this the appropriate thread to discuss the need of X class for a nerf or being already overpowered based on their utility. *cough* I think the just deal with it sentiment probably causes a lot of problems overall for any game. Sorry everyone jumped in the off topic for a sec to address to that and now returning to talking about the nerf that did occur to wizards.</p>

[Minlas]

<p>-Begin off topic rant-</p><p>The suck it up mentality. What a load. It usually translates into people not giving a flying **** about that specific problem. Often because it doesn't even relate to them. They want you to suck it up so they can talk about something that interests them more or impacts them. Sucking it up causes ulcers and never fixes anything and causes the guy that climbs watch tower syndrome. In games "sucking it up" mentality causes people to meander off to games where they are heard and their issues are addressed. Enough people meander and your games goes down the drain. </p><p>Suck it up does not correspend to having fun, which is the reason we all hopefully play. "Suck it up" corresponds to a job where your boss is incompetent and you have to "suck it up" and put up with him. Bringing the "life stinks, deal with it" philosophy to anything is silly. It doesn't ever fix anything and is the lazy way out. Face it, it's a cop out. Instead of fixing something or brainstorming or at least making it marginally more tolerable.... or at least trying.... you toss out some lame cliche that never accomplishes anything. "Suck it up" is often equated with toughness or manliness however  "don't speak your mind" isn't manly or "strong, silent type" it is the shut up and do as your told type.</p><p>So instead, how about: Speak your mind. People may or may not like and may or may not agree. So be it. This is a forum, it is the place to do it.</p><p>-End rant-</p>

[JohnDoe058]

<cite>Minlas wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>-Begin off topic rant-</p><p>The suck it up mentality. What a load. It usually translates into people not giving a flying **** about that specific problem. Often because it doesn't even relate to them. They want you to suck it up so they can talk about something that interests them more or impacts them. Sucking it up causes ulcers and never fixes anything and causes the guy that climbs watch tower syndrome. In games "sucking it up" mentality causes people to meander off to games where they are heard and their issues are addressed. Enough people meander and your games goes down the drain. </p><p>Suck it up does not correspend to having fun, which is the reason we all hopefully play. "Suck it up" corresponds to a job where your boss is incompetent and you have to "suck it up" and put up with him. Bringing the "life stinks, deal with it" philosophy to anything is silly. It doesn't ever fix anything and is the lazy way out. Face it, it's a cop out. Instead of fixing something or brainstorming or at least making it marginally more tolerable.... or at least trying.... you toss out some lame cliche that never accomplishes anything. "Suck it up" is often equated with toughness or manliness however  "don't speak your mind" isn't manly or "strong, silent type" it is the shut up and do as your told type.</p><p>So instead, how about: Speak your mind. People may or may not like and may or may not agree. So be it. This is a forum, it is the place to do it.</p><p>-End rant-</p></blockquote><p>Totally.</p><p>Anyone not wanting to know other ppl's opinions, doesn't have to read the forums.  How does that sound, since ppl seem to love dismissive comments?  lol </p>

[LiquidFlex]

<cite>IllusiveThoughts wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>LiquidFlex wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>JohnDoe058 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>We got double-nerfed (reduction to swash and assassin hate xfer means more squished wizzies), <i><b>whereas summoners avoided the nerfbat outright</b></i>.</p></blockquote>BS. Obviously you don't have a summoner. Yes we got a few changes that will help, but they are minute... like now our primary pet will <i><b>always</b></i> be in the pet window and charmed ones will not override it. Thank [insert deity here] that finally happened. But that is by no means a 'bump' to our effectiveness. Every class got hit in some way or another. Everyone needs to realize that this is going to happen. They even told you it would happen. It is to try and <i>balance</i> the AA of the classes respectively. Yes okay you don't like certain changes to your already preferred AA lines... but then again who the hell does? We've all obviously grown comfortable with what we already had. Oh well deal with it. If it means that hate is going to be more difficult to control, the so be it. I think it will make things more interesting. And I'm sure the changes aren't as bad as some like to think they are. Just give it a chance before your knee-jerk reaction starts a landslide of '<i>omg we got nerfed any nobody else did</i>'... I'm not flaming, I'm just stating the obvious facts. </blockquote><p>thanks for your POV on summoners, I have to ask though that the post you quoted explicitly stated you got hardly nerfed in your aa tree's at all, yet your only reply was BS.  Generally when countering a point, you provide information to support  your claim.  Oddly enough your entire reply was centered around a "suck it up" sort of reply and "deal with it" not a single response about any summoner aa nerfs other than "bs".</p><p>Summoners dont have the same hate issues that sorcerors (wiz/warlock) do that is a well established fact.  Nerfing hate doesn't have the same impact on you as it does us.  Please understand that next time you tell us to suck it up. </p></blockquote>Granted I probably should have sat here and 'cut-n-pasted' a couple of pages from different forums, but in the like, maybe instead of stating what you said, you could have journeied over to the summoner forums and read a bit there. I said what I said because that was how I felt. I go through just about every class forum so that I can see what everyone is currently discussing so that I can take it all into account not only for my main toons, or the toons that I play, but also so that I know what's happening with the other classes so I know how I should 'adjust' my play style in raids and groups. So again, read the other forums and issues regarding AAs before complaining that I didn't 'give' you information. I come in and 'read' for myself about the other classes, and <b>every</b> forum is currently going through the '<i>oh we got hit with the N-bat</i>'. So don't sit there and slam me just because you are too lazy to go read in a different place. I'm not trying to be harsh, and like I said in my first post above I wasn't intending on any hostile actions/reactions with the post. I just wanted you to know right away that throwing out the '<i>summoners didn't get nerfed at all</i>' is just wrong. So okay.. we are all wrong here. But the point about 'suck it up' yes alot of people think that just means we don't care. Not true. We all, <b>ALL</b>, have issues with 'broken' things in our class. And what do we do? We 'suck it up' and keep playing. Otherwise everyone would be quiting. <i>"Summoners dont have the same hate issues that sorcerors (wiz/warlock) do that is a well established fact.  Nerfing hate doesn't have the same impact on you as it does us.  Please understand that next time you tell us to suck it up.</i>" You act like people don't have any alts and nobody is affected. Yes I have a wiz too. I still suck it up. The update hasn't even gone live yet. I understand it's just a discussion, but I just think too many people get too worked up. Yes you care about your game just like the rest of us. Chill people. Its still only a game. Or better yet, just ignore my post and move on... or would that be a 'suck it up' too?  j/k  <img src="/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Force Weaver]

<p>In respsonse to an earlier comment in this thread about how much this class forum is read by those who make the game I thought I'd post some observations.  </p><p>1: What players say in lvl chat on their respective servers is seen/noticed since those who make the game must play the game. (alot)  Greifers, farmers, and disruptive wizards make us all look bad.</p><p>2: Comments about how EOF AA's for our class didn't necessarily seem "must have" before KOS AA's (at least on my server) might have warranted an in depth comparison of what about the KOS seemed uber in players minds.  In contrast other class EOF AA trees are more desirable to fill out before their KOS AA trees.  This might have sparked the "equalization" we see now.</p><p>3: In depth technical answers/responses to "noob" questions on this forum by posters with less than 30 posts likely either a) illusive's alt screename or b) someone on the team.  Devs don't "redname" in our forum but it doesn't mean they don't post.</p><p>4: Having a signature makes you more accesible to be "sampled" for your gameplay style and if you have legitmate points / constructive ideas you might be passively "surveyed" while playing which gives you another opportunity to make your opinion heard.  You can tell the difference between a game master you're on the wrong side of and a game maker interested in doing research.  Not all GM's are gm's but I'm sure some probably pull double duty on occasion.</p>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<cite>LiquidFlex wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>IllusiveThoughts wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>LiquidFlex wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>JohnDoe058 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>We got double-nerfed (reduction to swash and assassin hate xfer means more squished wizzies), <i><b>whereas summoners avoided the nerfbat outright</b></i>.</p></blockquote>BS. Obviously you don't have a summoner. Yes we got a few changes that will help, but they are minute... like now our primary pet will <i><b>always</b></i> be in the pet window and charmed ones will not override it. Thank [insert deity here] that finally happened. But that is by no means a 'bump' to our effectiveness. Every class got hit in some way or another. Everyone needs to realize that this is going to happen. They even told you it would happen. It is to try and <i>balance</i> the AA of the classes respectively. Yes okay you don't like certain changes to your already preferred AA lines... but then again who the hell does? We've all obviously grown comfortable with what we already had. Oh well deal with it. If it means that hate is going to be more difficult to control, the so be it. I think it will make things more interesting. And I'm sure the changes aren't as bad as some like to think they are. Just give it a chance before your knee-jerk reaction starts a landslide of '<i>omg we got nerfed any nobody else did</i>'... I'm not flaming, I'm just stating the obvious facts. </blockquote><p>thanks for your POV on summoners, I have to ask though that the post you quoted explicitly stated you got hardly nerfed in your aa tree's at all, yet your only reply was BS.  Generally when countering a point, you provide information to support  your claim.  Oddly enough your entire reply was centered around a "suck it up" sort of reply and "deal with it" not a single response about any summoner aa nerfs other than "bs".</p><p>Summoners dont have the same hate issues that sorcerors (wiz/warlock) do that is a well established fact.  Nerfing hate doesn't have the same impact on you as it does us.  Please understand that next time you tell us to suck it up. </p></blockquote>Granted I probably should have sat here and 'cut-n-pasted' a couple of pages from different forums, but in the like, maybe instead of stating what you said, you could have journeied over to the summoner forums and read a bit there. I said what I said because that was how I felt. I go through just about every class forum so that I can see what everyone is currently discussing so that I can take it all into account not only for my main toons, or the toons that I play, but also so that I know what's happening with the other classes so I know how I should 'adjust' my play style in raids and groups. So again, read the other forums and issues regarding AAs before complaining that I didn't 'give' you information. I come in and 'read' for myself about the other classes, and <b>every</b> forum is currently going through the '<i>oh we got hit with the N-bat</i>'. So don't sit there and slam me just because you are too lazy to go read in a different place. I'm not trying to be harsh, and like I said in my first post above I wasn't intending on any hostile actions/reactions with the post. I just wanted you to know right away that throwing out the '<i>summoners didn't get nerfed at all</i>' is just wrong. So okay.. we are all wrong here. But the point about 'suck it up' yes alot of people think that just means we don't care. Not true. We all, <b>ALL</b>, have issues with 'broken' things in our class. And what do we do? We 'suck it up' and keep playing. Otherwise everyone would be quiting. <i>"Summoners dont have the same hate issues that sorcerors (wiz/warlock) do that is a well established fact.  Nerfing hate doesn't have the same impact on you as it does us.  Please understand that next time you tell us to suck it up.</i>" You act like people don't have any alts and nobody is affected. Yes I have a wiz too. I still suck it up. The update hasn't even gone live yet. I understand it's just a discussion, but I just think too many people get too worked up. Yes you care about your game just like the rest of us. Chill people. Its still only a game. Or better yet, just ignore my post and move on... or would that be a 'suck it up' too?  j/k  <img src="/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote><p>If you would of just posted what you said and never followed up I could live with the fact that you just wanted to spout your opinon on this matter and not actually have a debate on the topic.</p><p>I shouldn't have to break a discussion down so rudimentary for you but since you followd up your post with a second one that now qualifies as a debate.  Since you gave no counter arguments to your point and quoted post, any subsiquent posts that do not provide said proof will be dismissed.  As such this now qualifies as one.  No proof, no credibility. </p>

[Vlaton]

Wow.  I'd probably fd if i were you Liquid.  Your fixin to go down faster then a fat kid on a snickers bar if you keep trying to make yourself sound sm4rt.

[LiquidFlex]

<blockquote>Wow.  I'd probably fd if i were you Liquid.  Your fixin to go down faster then a fat kid on a snickers bar if you keep trying to make yourself sound sm4rt.[/qutoe] Huh? So now it's all about personal attacks eh? And you are going to try and judge smartness by using numbers in your words... ok. Sure thing. <blockquote> <p>If you would of just posted what you said and never followed up I could live with the fact that you just wanted to spout your opinon on this matter and not actually have a debate on the topic.</p><p>I shouldn't have to break a discussion down so rudimentary for you but since you followd up your post with a second one that now qualifies as a debate.  Since you gave no counter arguments to your point and quoted post, any subsiquent posts that do not provide said proof will be dismissed.  As such this now qualifies as one.  No proof, no credibility.</blockquote>This makes no sense. I never came in here to debate with you. I was simply trying to get you to realize you err in assuming what you assumed. But since you don't care to stop trying to slam me into the ground, I'm not going to give you any more posts. And just because someone replies doesn't mean they are trying to debate. Maybe they are just trying to get you to see something from a different point of view with out the hassle of all this garbage we are now throwing out on the forums. </p><p>But just remember like I said, it still doesn't change the fact that ou could have done some research before plowing into it like you did. And taking up more time and posts by responding to my response makes you just as bad as me... since you want to slap a 'bad' label on someone. </p>But ok I will admit, again like I did above, that I was probably a bit harsh with the suck it up and BS comment. The fact that you are trying to keep an argument going means you are neither helping this post, nor any others, nor your class. So go ahead and flame away. I'll not bother posting on this topic again. Feel free to throw out any words you like now since you now have the opportunity to get in the last words... I'm sur you will feel much better about yourself after this one... especially since I wont be replying again.

[JohnDoe058]

<p>LiquidFlex is a dirty liar.</p><p>How's that for last word?</p>

[duuf]

Back on topic please before we get locked. Guys, its a net of about 3% nerf with what we can pick up by being able to use 2 handers.  That translates into a 1500 dps wiz doing 1450, hardly the end of our class. I'm a lot more interested in how we stack up with the other classes after their nerf.

[JohnDoe058]

<cite>duuf wrote:</cite><blockquote>Back on topic please before we get locked. Guys, its a net of about 3% nerf with what we can pick up by being able to use 2 handers.  That translates into a 1500 dps wiz doing 1450, hardly the end of our class. I'm a lot more interested in how we stack up with the other classes after their nerf. </blockquote><p>Ok, ok, right you are...on both points</p><p>But even the 3% nerf is hard to take, when our class is barely viable for raiding, and clearly underpowered, as is.</p><p>And how much are the hate transfer nerfs going to hurt us?  I'd say, rather little on single targets, but a LOT on AoE fights.</p><p>But the big question is...if we were to go with INT line, would the increase on allowance of aggresiveness on AoE fights, possibly make up for the loss of DPS from dropping WIS/AGI/STR?  That's a good question...I'll be trying it out. </p>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<cite>duuf wrote:</cite><blockquote>Back on topic please before we get locked. Guys, its a net of about 3% nerf with what we can pick up by being able to use 2 handers.  That translates into a 1500 dps wiz doing 1450, hardly the end of our class. I'm a lot more interested in how we stack up with the other classes after their nerf. </blockquote><p> or a 3k dps wizard doing 2800, and scratching his head wondering wher the "F" his dps went.</p><p>Remember they are % nerfs, which scale up indefinately.  As I said, its a cap on damage nerf, guys doing low dps wont even notice.</p>

[Dextera]

<cite>IllusiveThoughts wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>duuf wrote:</cite><blockquote>Back on topic please before we get locked. Guys, its a net of about 3% nerf with what we can pick up by being able to use 2 handers.  That translates into a 1500 dps wiz doing 1450, hardly the end of our class. I'm a lot more interested in how we stack up with the other classes after their nerf. </blockquote><p> or a 3k dps wizard doing 2800, and scratching his head wondering wher the "F" his dps went.</p><p>Remember they are % nerfs, which scale up indefinately.  As I said, its a cap on damage nerf, guys doing low dps wont even notice.</p></blockquote> Hrmm.. 3,000DPS x 3% = 90DPS, (therefore a 3k DPS Wiz is doing 2910.) Let's not overexaggerate here.

[Darien al'Staff]

Dextera@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote><cite>IllusiveThoughts wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>duuf wrote:</cite><blockquote>Back on topic please before we get locked. Guys, its a net of about 3% nerf with what we can pick up by being able to use 2 handers.  That translates into a 1500 dps wiz doing 1450, hardly the end of our class. I'm a lot more interested in how we stack up with the other classes after their nerf. </blockquote><p> or a 3k dps wizard doing 2800, and scratching his head wondering wher the "F" his dps went.</p><p>Remember they are % nerfs, which scale up indefinately.  As I said, its a cap on damage nerf, guys doing low dps wont even notice.</p></blockquote> Hrmm.. 3,000DPS x 3% = 90DPS, (therefore a 3k DPS Wiz is doing 2910.) Let's not overexaggerate here.</blockquote>More then that, if you include the free-hand nerf. Btw...90 dps loss is a big deal for the top-end raid wizards.  That 90 dps could mean the difference for me beating the rangers or not.  *shrug* 

[duuf]

If you are worried about rangers go read their posts. They got more potential nerfage headed their way with the ammo changes than the known nerfage the wiz are getting. This is a minor nerf in the scheme of things.

[Dextera]

<p>Thanks Duff, took the words right out of my mouth, lol.</p><p>When speaking of nerfs, especially compared to other classes, we could of gotten hit MUCH harder. You know no class comes out unscathed after a combat revamp. People should have learned by now.</p>

[IllusiveThoughts]

Dextera@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote><cite>IllusiveThoughts wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>duuf wrote:</cite><blockquote>Back on topic please before we get locked. Guys, its a net of about 3% nerf with what we can pick up by being able to use 2 handers.  That translates into a 1500 dps wiz doing 1450, hardly the end of our class. I'm a lot more interested in how we stack up with the other classes after their nerf. </blockquote><p> or a 3k dps wizard doing 2800, and scratching his head wondering wher the "F" his dps went.</p><p>Remember they are % nerfs, which scale up indefinately.  As I said, its a cap on damage nerf, guys doing low dps wont even notice.</p></blockquote> Hrmm.. 3,000DPS x 3% = 90DPS, (therefore a 3k DPS Wiz is doing 2910.) Let's not overexaggerate here.</blockquote>the nerf is larger than 3% that you claim. however aruging about the #'s isn't the point of my post.  its about the nerf.

[IllusiveThoughts]

Dextera@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote><p>Thanks Duff, took the words right out of my mouth, lol.</p><p>When speaking of nerfs, especially compared to other classes, we could of gotten hit MUCH harder. You know no class comes out unscathed after a combat revamp. People should have learned by now.</p></blockquote> You can only go through so many before you get sick of it.  you would think SOE would of learned how to run EQ2 after what 4-5 combat revamps?  If they still haven't gotten it right, it's never gonna stop.  Personally its not fair to the playerbase to continue to do this.

[JohnDoe058]

<cite>IllusiveThoughts wrote:</cite><blockquote>Dextera@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote><p>Thanks Duff, took the words right out of my mouth, lol.</p><p>When speaking of nerfs, especially compared to other classes, we could of gotten hit MUCH harder. You know no class comes out unscathed after a combat revamp. People should have learned by now.</p></blockquote> You can only go through so many before you get sick of it.  you would think SOE would of learned how to run EQ2 after what 4-5 combat revamps?  If they still haven't gotten it right, it's never gonna stop.  Personally its not fair to the playerbase to continue to do this.</blockquote><p>No kidding.  It's possible to do revisions with little-or-no-nerfage, but they just don't choose to.  They could just buff up ALL unpopular lines until they're on par,  but they'd rather see us suffer.  </p><p>Where in a few cases, nerfage might be warranted (*cough* rougue *cough* warrior), they went far overboard IMO.  Most classes needed no nerfage from this...yet, here it is.</p><p>And it's just another slap in the face...warriors get so, so much more from their AA lines, before and after the nerf.  Couldn't we get even half what they get out of theirs?  Maybe then, we wouldn't be so [Removed for Content].</p>

[Lyasa]

if it's anything. got a 14 wiz on test, looked at the AA's there's no "no secondary equipped" just +10% @ rank 1 of freehand, .5% per rank of brainstorm. nothing about offhand empty.

[Dextera]

<p>     Why would SOE bother buffing up everyone?  This would only lead to re-adjusting every single encounter in the game to prevent trivialization. <i>That makes no sense</i>, from an economic as well as a logistic standpoint. Point blank, sorry if you disagree, but you're absolutely, 100% wrong.</p><p>     This thread is starting to look pathetic. If you begin to even think we're close to being [Removed for Content], you should reroll. That's one less Wizard to compete with for Masters. </p><p>     We're far from being [Removed for Content], and if you can't even come close to other classes in terms of DPS on single target (hell, even multi-target), you need to look up some of the many threads on casting order and proper equipment, because frankly, you have alot of learning to do.</p>