LU36 AA changes

[Agaxiq]

Apparently they are dropping weapon-specific requirements for AA's, with a few exceptions - but it has only been stated that it was ranged and buckler requirements. I'm assuming our STR would be one of them as well?  STR would be the defacto-standard if we could use weapons as well.  Guessing it would either be the way it is now, or would be nerfed big time. Guessing Sorc/Chanter/Rogue 1h, secondary slot empty would be as well, but who knows. Comments? agressiv

[Kram337]

<p>I think what they mean by changing the requirements is that an AA that right now requires a fist weapon will work with a baton or any other weapon type.  Or say the AA that requires a baton will work with a fist weapon.</p><p> Swash provides a good example, they have a <b>rapier only</b> attack, a <b>sword only</b> attack, and a <b>offhand must be empty</b> attack. After the changes come they'll be able to do either <b>rapier </b>or <b>sword </b>attacks with any weapon. But as for the <b>offhand must be empty</b> attack, the offhand will still have to be empty. </p><p> Hope that clarifies it a bit.</p>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

Every single class, even non-melee, has the weapon requirements on the 2nd abilities. So first off, I could definitely see that one being changed. However, what gives me hope is the following line: <i>The few cases where an achievement received a reduction were made to balance out a penalizing equipment requirement that was removed as part of the update. </i> This means the "restrictive choice", which.. lets face it, no actual weapon choice was truly "restrictive" so we must be talking about empty hands here, is going to be retuned to work with weapons. Now I can see non-melee classes having their offhands still empty because those are symbols... not weapons. And the only thing coming out is Epic Weapons with RoK, not epic symbols. So maybe the melee-offhand empty and both hands empty are going to be redone to work with weapons. Which means they will have to reduce the amount, the implied nerf. In the end, it won't really be a nerf because we will be able to use weapons and get more out of it than before.

[Dezolis]

Taken from test update notes for Brawler AA line changes: Strength 3 - Relentless Punches: Renamed to Eye of the Tiger: No longer requires unarmed. Increases all combat art damage by 0.75% per rank. I was thinking about playing a bruiser alt, but now....maybe not.

[shamane1]

<li>Strength 4 - Claw Reversal: Renamed to Tiger Body: Increases physical mitigation instead of Riposte chance.</li><li>Strength 5 - Chi: Improved casting speed bonus from 75 to 100%, Recovery speed bonus from 33.3% to 100%, Removed all penalties when Chi expires.</li> those look pretty sick imo

[Agaxiq]

STR: Killing the double attack really ruins this line.  I guess we'd have to do parses to see what a maxed Relentless Punches would do compared to say, the STA line. Many of the end-line abilities are nice, but have always been more of a bonus and situational since you can only use them once every 3-5 minutes, or INT when you go below 30% health etc. agressiv

[Cornbread Muffin]

<p>This isn't a parse, just fuzzy math, but if you do 50% of your damage from CAs (seems about normal from what I have read) then +6% CA damage = +3% DPS, or +45 DPS if your prevsious total was 1500.</p>

[Catodon]

Cornbread Muffin wrote: <blockquote><p>This isn't a parse, just fuzzy math, but if you do 50% of your damage from CAs (seems about normal from what I have read) then +6% CA damage = +3% DPS, or +45 DPS if your prevsious total was 1500.</p></blockquote>This guess looks about right to me.  It makes sense too, when you consider the dropping of unarmed requirement... I will miss the flavor aspect of unarmed but the replacement needs to be in line with the rest of the tree now that you can use them all together.  Mantis Bolt and Crane Twirl right now work out to ~3-5% dps increase each, more or less, looks like the Str 3 will have approximately the same value. Effects of this that jump out at me: Str line by itself is no longer the default choice for levelling a brawler (free fabled equivalent DR from bare fists, we knew ye well.) The Str line becomes a viable choice for raiding brawlers... the crushing debuff from the 2nd skill is arguably more worthwhile now than the sta/wis/int level 2 skills. Overall I don' t see this change having any drastic effect for bruisers who are already lvl 70... all the lines will now increase dps moderately and tanking slightly while granting a few nice utilities here and there.  Will be a major inconvenience for existing Str line users who have to go shopping, hehe, though I suppose it has to be done sometime in order to make the epic weapon quest stuff in the expansion workable.

[Agaxiq]

Seems fair enough.  I'm assuming they will give us a free respec (and hopefully reset our 30 day timer as well) due to the amount of changes they made. agressiv

[tt66]

<blockquote><p>Bruiser PvP Combat Effects</p><ul><li>The Drag achievement will no longer teleport your target to you.</li><li>Bruiser Drag now has a shorter duration when used on a player</li></ul> </blockquote> Well that sucks. I quite liked Drag bring able to, y'know, drag.

[Cornbread Muffin]

<cite>Catodon wrote:</cite><blockquote>Cornbread Muffin wrote: <blockquote><p>This isn't a parse, just fuzzy math, but if you do 50% of your damage from CAs (seems about normal from what I have read) then +6% CA damage = +3% DPS, or +45 DPS if your prevsious total was 1500.</p></blockquote>This guess looks about right to me.  It makes sense too, when you consider the dropping of unarmed requirement... I will miss the flavor aspect of unarmed but the replacement needs to be in line with the rest of the tree now that you can use them all together.  Mantis Bolt and Crane Twirl right now work out to ~3-5% dps increase each, more or less, looks like the Str 3 will have approximately the same value. Effects of this that jump out at me: Str line by itself is no longer the default choice for levelling a brawler (free fabled equivalent DR from bare fists, we knew ye well.) The Str line becomes a viable choice for raiding brawlers... the crushing debuff from the 2nd skill is arguably more worthwhile now than the sta/wis/int level 2 skills. Overall I don' t see this change having any drastic effect for bruisers who are already lvl 70... all the lines will now increase dps moderately and tanking slightly while granting a few nice utilities here and there.  Will be a major inconvenience for existing Str line users who have to go shopping, hehe, though I suppose it has to be done sometime in order to make the epic weapon quest stuff in the expansion workable. </blockquote><p> It doesn't look right to me, it looks horrible. The STR line may now be balanced vs Mantis Bolt and Crane Twirl, but compared to Warrior AAs all three of them are garbage. To whit, for the same 8 points in a third level ability we would spend to get a 3% upgrade Warriors can instead pick up a 60% double attack. 60% double attack on a 1500dps character that is 40% autoattack damage is a 360 DPS increase, or +24%. We would have to spend 49 points (including our opener) to get 37.5% of the DPS increase that they can get for spending 17 points (including their opener).</p>

[TheWorm]

After looking at my parses from last night in FTH, adding 6% to my CAs will do roughly what Crane Twirl is doing for me now on single target mobs.  IMO the crane twirl change is for the better so I'll probably wind up staying speced down WIS and INT.  That being said, I might try out str/agi/int 448 at some point just to see, but the lowered recast on crane flock is going to make the Wis line a much more viable option IMO.  Also, for those who are interested, with 8 points into them at 70 Tiger Body is 312 Mit and Crane Twirl is 16% chance to proc 260-433 crushing damage aoe. It makes me sad to see such harsh changes to the STR line.  Obviously with the upcoming changes they needed to nerf it, but they could have left like 24% double attack and 6% riposte or something.  I think CHI is awesome now, but a 15 minute timer is ridiculous.  Lower it to 5 and maybe I'll try it out.

[Ganeden]

<cite>TheWorm wrote:</cite><blockquote>After looking at my parses from last night in FTH, adding 6% to my CAs will do roughly what Crane Twirl is doing for me now on single target mobs.  IMO the crane twirl change is for the better so I'll probably wind up staying speced down WIS and INT.  That being said, I might try out str/agi/int 448 at some point just to see, but the lowered recast on crane flock is going to make the Wis line a much more viable option IMO.  Also, for those who are interested, with 8 points into them at 70 Tiger Body is 312 Mit and Crane Twirl is 16% chance to proc 260-433 crushing damage aoe. It makes me sad to see such harsh changes to the STR line.  Obviously with the upcoming changes they needed to nerf it, but they could have left like 24% double attack and 6% riposte or something.  I think CHI is awesome now, but a 15 minute timer is ridiculous.  Lower it to 5 and maybe I'll try it out. </blockquote><li>Strength 5 - Chi: Improved casting speed bonus from 75 to 100%, Recovery speed bonus from 33.3% to 100%, Removed all penalties when Chi expires.</li><p> Chi doesn't actually have a 15 minute recast timer. Chi actually takes itself into it's effects and reduces it's casting timer by 33% to 10 minutes. Wouldn't the 100% recovery timer reduction make it insta recast? will we be able to spam kidney punch while chi is in effect? Something doesn't seem right here, if this is true Chi is going to be uber, with KO combo we could put out lifeburn like damage in 30 seconds. The Chi penalty thing doesn't really matter, you could cancel chi with 1 second left and it wouldn't give you the bad effects.</p>

[Tharangus]

<cite>Ganeden wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>TheWorm wrote:</cite><blockquote>After looking at my parses from last night in FTH, adding 6% to my CAs will do roughly what Crane Twirl is doing for me now on single target mobs.  IMO the crane twirl change is for the better so I'll probably wind up staying speced down WIS and INT.  That being said, I might try out str/agi/int 448 at some point just to see, but the lowered recast on crane flock is going to make the Wis line a much more viable option IMO.  Also, for those who are interested, with 8 points into them at 70 Tiger Body is 312 Mit and Crane Twirl is 16% chance to proc 260-433 crushing damage aoe. It makes me sad to see such harsh changes to the STR line.  Obviously with the upcoming changes they needed to nerf it, but they could have left like 24% double attack and 6% riposte or something.  I think CHI is awesome now, but a 15 minute timer is ridiculous.  Lower it to 5 and maybe I'll try it out. </blockquote><li>Strength 5 - Chi: Improved casting speed bonus from 75 to 100%, Recovery speed bonus from 33.3% to 100%, Removed all penalties when Chi expires.</li><p> Chi doesn't actually have a 15 minute recast timer. Chi actually takes itself into it's effects and reduces it's casting timer by 33% to 10 minutes. Wouldn't the 100% recovery timer reduction make it insta recast? will we be able to spam kidney punch while chi is in effect? Something doesn't seem right here, if this is true Chi is going to be uber, with KO combo we could put out lifeburn like damage in 30 seconds. The Chi penalty thing doesn't really matter, you could cancel chi with 1 second left and it wouldn't give you the bad effects.</p></blockquote><p>It won't be insta-cast.  That will mean it will be up in 7 1/2 minutes, if I understand the reuse timer bonus math here.  A lot of people get confused with how these get calculated which is understandable.  100% means that it will be 100% of the calculated value, which actually means an actual 50% reduction in the timer.  It's the same with predator resuse timer calculations and you can go read up on those if you like.</p><p>The removal of bad karama is helpful because now I won't have to take the time to go cancel it.  I'll actually be able to squeeze in a few CA's in that time.</p>

[Catodon]

Chi modifies both "recovery timer" and "reuse timer".. the change affects recovery timer but not reuse timer, near as i can tell. 50% increase in reuse speed = taking 33% off of the recast timer, so Chi will still be 10 minute recast (unless they change the mechanic to bump it up to 15 minutes). Recovery timer to 100% I think means you can spam (different) combat arts with no delay between them.   If the reuse timer business stacks with the bonus from agility line you could see some pretty nice damage from KO combo, but I doubt it will be anywhere near lifeburn power.

[neon_24]

yea if the changes they have on test now go live i am goin to be doin allot of testing with the agi line that will come out to a 17% redux on everything with the Chel'Drak TFD ring, i am alredy specced in the agi line and like it helps with zone wide parses quite a bit plus most of our dmg comes from our CAs anyway so it'll be intresting to see how it all plays out

[PantherXX]

Lothous@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote>yea if the changes they have on test now go live i am goin to be doin allot of testing with the agi line that will come out to a 17% redux on everything with the Chel'Drak TFD ring, i am alredy specced in the agi line and like it helps with zone wide parses quite a bit plus most of our dmg comes from our CAs anyway so it'll be intresting to see how it all plays out </blockquote>I may be mistaken for bruisers, but I know this holds for monks.  Solo, roughly half of our dps comes from CA's.  In a good group, maybe 40%, often less, actually comes from CAs.  CAs will pump out roughly 500-600 DPS rather consistently, so if you want to calculate the change, base it on that.  For example, I would consider that the 6% CA increase from the STR line is more like a 3% increase in total damage, even less if you have a good group setup.  We either need significant bumps in CA damage or an improvement in autoattack in order to have a real impact.

[neon_24]

we don't have the same kinda haste as you guys so melee skills such as crane flock are not as benifical for us our CAs do much more Dmg than yours do so anything that lets me use CAs sooner plus increases to the dmg they do is better for us than it would be for monks

[Ganeden]

<cite>Catodon wrote:</cite><blockquote>Chi modifies both "recovery timer" and "reuse timer".. the change affects recovery timer but not reuse timer, near as i can tell. 50% increase in reuse speed = taking 33% off of the recast timer, so Chi will still be 10 minute recast (unless they change the mechanic to bump it up to 15 minutes). Recovery timer to 100% I think means you can spam (different) combat arts with no delay between them.   If the reuse timer business stacks with the bonus from agility line you could see some pretty nice damage from KO combo, but I doubt it will be anywhere near lifeburn power. </blockquote><p> Yeah, you're right. I had my terms mixed up, not the math. The changes still make Chi even better, dps will go up because you can get more spells in before it expires and have more spells cast during KO combo if you have it up with Chi.</p><p>Overall I certinally don't think these changes to AAs will really help "fix" us. I'll have to do some testing when they come out. Hopefully they get tweaked a bit during testing</p>

[Madmoon]

<p>Any word when this'll go into effect?</p><p>I have not looked at all the other fighter lines in depth, but I wonder if we are not being boosted a little, in comparison to them.  Berserkers in particular are lining up at cliffs, threatening to jump.  I don't know that this will put brawlers ahead of berserkers and shadow knights in damage dealing, where some think we are behind, but it looks pretty good.</p>

[edyts]

This wednesday or the following wednesday i read in a post ogrebear made

[Korpo]

<cite>Madmoon wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Any word when this'll go into effect?</p><p>I have not looked at all the other fighter lines in depth, but I wonder if we are not being boosted a little, in comparison to them.  Berserkers in particular are lining up at cliffs, threatening to jump.  I don't know that this will put brawlers ahead of berserkers and shadow knights in damage dealing, where some think we are behind, but it looks pretty good.</p></blockquote>I'm generally happy with the changes to my SK. There are a few things in the Bruiser changes that I don't like, a few that I do. Overall, I'm sure I'll adapt to whatever comes along. I've been playing since launch and have seen a million changes, and most of them turned out to be for the best in the long run. Those that are threatening to quit the game over some change are the same ones that threatened to quit because of some game-breaking change in LU1, and LU2, and LU3, and LU4, and LU5, and LU6, and LU7...

[Etchii]

<p>Removing unarmed combat from brawlers is just WRONG.  I don't care if bare fisted was not "top of the dps charts for brawlers" it was a great class defining skill, added great roleplayability, and made leveling up the bruiser somewhat fun knowing the fists were better than most weapons found along the way to 70.  </p><p>Now it is gone.  And with no comment.  Thanks.</p>

[Rezzonico]

<p>Fighting unarmed was great and "BEATIFUL", a defining skill. And since they improved adornmets the STR line suck as unarmed you can't put them ( now a legedary weapons with a good proc/mezz or else, plus an adorment is better than unarmed).</p><p>Then what they did? put weapons on str!</p><p>Oh well, put Weapons on a line where final step exist an ability named "Chi" it's so great!</p><p>I would like to state that, martialists with weapons does exists in this world, but never seen one unarmed will be ridicolous!</p><p>Instead of Introducing ridicolous modifications, was enough to put just one to make unarmed fight for brawler compared or quite good against weapons. </p><p>I want to applaude SOE for this!!!</p><p>Instead of the CA increase damage (that already exist in the other tree) they could let the double attack, as delay is 2.5 unarmed. And so, let this line for unarmed.</p><p>And now, as risposte chance is too low who will run to get "RETRIBUTION OF STONE" on the other tree?</p><p>Now what we'll see is a spamm of CHI users, with weapons and i don't want imagine what else.  Ah..i was forgotten....thx for drag <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p><p>------------I want to applaude these employers fat, with pimples and no meaning of life-------------</p><p>The things are 2:</p><p>-Or we make a petition/spamm/ open thousands post to stop this modification</p><p>-Or we let them improve and then it's too late to come back</p>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

Um, okay.. couple things. The term "Chi" has nothing specifically to do with unarmed combat. The actual term means "life energy" or the flow of energy. Having the final ability called this makes a lot of thematic sense, considering what it does. Maybe you are thinking about "Tai Chi"? But even then, tai chi is performed with any number of weapons once the basics are learned.. everything from a staff or spear, to daggers or swords, or even things like halberds, lances or whips. Tai Chi was about meeting aggression with opposite reactions instead of brute force... it wasn't specific to unarmed only, despite what your granny does for her morning exercises. Second.. "We" aren't going to do anything except make our opinions heard. Which we have done. We can't "hurt" SoE in any way, shape, or form that would cause them to decide against doing something they feel is necessary. We aren't "letting" them do anything... quite frankly, they don't need our permission. Hopefully the number of people voicing some kind of opposed opinion over this will <i>convince</i> them to change their plans... but that's the best we can hope for.

[Rezzonico]

Kaisoku@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote>Um, okay.. couple things. The term "Chi" has nothing specifically to do with unarmed combat. The actual term means "life energy" or the flow of energy. Having the final ability called this makes a lot of thematic sense, considering what it does. Maybe you are thinking about "Tai Chi"? But even then, tai chi is performed with any number of weapons once the basics are learned.. everything from a staff or spear, to daggers or swords, or even things like halberds, lances or whips. Tai Chi was about meeting aggression with opposite reactions instead of brute force... it wasn't specific to unarmed only, despite what your granny does for her morning exercises. Second.. "We" aren't going to do anything except make our opinions heard. Which we have done. We can't "hurt" SoE in any way, shape, or form that would cause them to decide against doing something they feel is necessary. We aren't "letting" them do anything... quite frankly, they don't need our permission. Hopefully the number of people voicing some kind of opposed opinion over this will <i>convince</i> them to change their plans... but that's the best we can hope for. </blockquote><p>I know what the Chi is, i did Martial arts on real life. But what will make me laugh is that will be an armed people that will use it...was better and beatiful if it was an unarmed. and that "Feel necessary" really don't convince me, as we cannot modify the game month by month because of no explanation. </p><p> I'll continue fight unarmed, even if they give me the chance to use weapons, as i like fight unarmed and i feel that SOE after adding the adornments never find a solution better for unarmed brawlers until they decided to changing an entire line of AA!</p><p>Full stop. </p>

[Drhammer]

<p>When i read about this Brawler AA changes i was excited, but later i realized that what Sony devs are doing is what they exactly mean to say and that is they are trying to equal the value of each lines,  trying to make it more apeal to you, prehaps you may end up with the same results. I am staying sta/int/wis 4/4/8 we cant have it all so.  i like to be more consitence dps, i am petty sure alot of you like burst dps so Wisdom and Strength will offer that. agi look cool and intresting but if you go agi/wisdom u are going to lose the Int Crits. and if u go Str/agi/int or Str/agi/stan 4/4/8 u may end up with the same dps results. so i dont belive we are geting a large bust on our dps, it is a cosmetic up date. thats my take <img src="/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><hr /><img src="http://home.earthlink.net/~rushao/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/rubia.copy.jpg" border="0">

[Ganeden]

<cite>Rezzonico wrote:</cite><blockquote>Kaisoku@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote>Um, okay.. couple things. The term "Chi" has nothing specifically to do with unarmed combat. The actual term means "life energy" or the flow of energy. Having the final ability called this makes a lot of thematic sense, considering what it does. Maybe you are thinking about "Tai Chi"? But even then, tai chi is performed with any number of weapons once the basics are learned.. everything from a staff or spear, to daggers or swords, or even things like halberds, lances or whips. Tai Chi was about meeting aggression with opposite reactions instead of brute force... it wasn't specific to unarmed only, despite what your granny does for her morning exercises. Second.. "We" aren't going to do anything except make our opinions heard. Which we have done. We can't "hurt" SoE in any way, shape, or form that would cause them to decide against doing something they feel is necessary. We aren't "letting" them do anything... quite frankly, they don't need our permission. Hopefully the number of people voicing some kind of opposed opinion over this will <i>convince</i> them to change their plans... but that's the best we can hope for. </blockquote><p>I know what the Chi is, i did Martial arts on real life. But what will make me laugh is that will be an armed people that will use it...was better and beatiful if it was an unarmed. and that "Feel necessary" really don't convince me, as we cannot modify the game month by month because of no explanation. </p><p> I'll continue fight unarmed, even if they give me the chance to use weapons, as i like fight unarmed and i feel that SOE after adding the adornments never find a solution better for unarmed brawlers until they decided to changing an entire line of AA!</p><p>Full stop. </p></blockquote><p>LOL, you thought it was "beautiful" if it was unarmed? What does it matter, this is a game for god's sake. Oh and as for people with weapons useing it now, I was useing duel weild weapons and STILL went down the str line just for Chi. I don't think most people realized how much it helped DPS, exspecially if you used it when it popped. KO combo pops up faster for the next fight and so do all your big AAs, it gave me a serious boost in zone wide dps.</p><p>I can see you not liking it because  you like the unarmed look but enough to keep useing it? Unarmed will be worthless. </p>

[Rezzonico]

<p>I am half legendary equiped man....And in pvp i've beated people half fabled/most fabled equiped.</p><p>Before speaking, Why don't you think how much greater is the Chi now with the LU36 than before and how many people will ask for a nerf?</p><p>And as they remove risposte, who will run for "RETRIBUTION OF STONE" as will have low chance to proc?</p><p>Will be nice go all around norrath and watching all brawlers spammers of Chi, instead of before that there were about 4-5 people with different AA configurations...""""THIS!!! THIS MADE YOU ENJOY THE PATH OF THE MARTIALIST""""</p><p>They had to give some benefits to unarmed fight as an adorned weapons is better than the fist. Not to change an entire line. Fight unarmed it's cool and it's a definy skill. </p><p>Now if i'll meet a monk or an exiled bruiser i do not enjoy the fight anymore, as i already know what will use <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p><p>Ah, it's funny that an unarmed martialist, who fight hand to hand,  will no longer exists. Off course, armed fighters exists in this world, but don't see any unarmed will be funny. Just call the class with another name then. Beacuse Bruce Lee is turning on its grave.</p>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

Wow. That's just... wow. Honestly, you have way too many emotions put into this.. you might want to take a step back and realize this is a game, not life. Pulled the Bruce Lee card even, lol... yeesh. Anyways, unarmed is unarmed. Before KoS came out, it was never an option either. After Adornments came out, unarmed lost being any real viable end game option at all as well. Unarmed doing more damage than anyone else was a little flavour bonus... like weight limitations in EQ1. It's not meant to replace true combat.. at best, you can be expected to do SOME kind of damage even if your weapons are broken.. but that's it. And what the heck would you do with unarmed once Epic weapons are out? It's a <i>weapon</i> and therefore won't be useable with unarmed. So what then? The pinnacle of martial arts fighting will be with a weapon, so AA lines HAVE to accomodate otherwise you will see no one using the unarmed line. And quite frankly, the Strength line is NOT the current be-all end-all. Burst DPS isn't what we need help with if you are focusing on more than just damage. Anyone needing any kind of AE aggro control will be doing Wisdom line. Anyone wanting decent damage will have Crits. Anyone wanting PvP oriented bonuses will be doing Stamina final. Anyone that wants some kind of raid utility will be doing Agi final. Tons of folks still believe that getting 3rd tier damage abilities in 3 lines is better than getting two finals. After the update, you will STILL see a ton of people thinking many different things. The only thing that is going to change is people are going to use weapons now. Honestly, even martial artists in real life had something like handwraps or something. And when facing a person using a weapon like a sword or something, 99% of the time the unarmed guy starts resorting to some impromptu weapon (chair, belt, beer bottle, some kind of gauntlet, etc). It's rare to see a martial arts film where the person is completely barehanded and blocking/parrying weapon blows. So no, I don't see a problem at all with the loss of barehanded combat. As long as we still have weapons like handwraps, knuckledusters, katar, punch daggers, claws, and staves, then I'll consider it realistic enough for a fantasy game. It was nice to have the option to level up without needing to use weapons all the time, however it's not the end of the world... it's not like everyone else isn't in the same boat.

[Rezzonico]

Kaisoku@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote>Wow. That's just... wow. Honestly, you have way too many emotions put into this.. you might want to take a step back and realize this is a game, not life. Pulled the Bruce Lee card even, lol... yeesh. Anyways, unarmed is unarmed. Before KoS came out, it was never an option either. After Adornments came out, unarmed lost being any real viable end game option at all as well. Unarmed doing more damage than anyone else was a little flavour bonus... like weight limitations in EQ1. It's not meant to replace true combat.. at best, you can be expected to do SOME kind of damage even if your weapons are broken.. but that's it. And what the heck would you do with unarmed once Epic weapons are out? It's a <i>weapon</i> and therefore won't be useable with unarmed. So what then? The pinnacle of martial arts fighting will be with a weapon, so AA lines HAVE to accomodate otherwise you will see no one using the unarmed line. And quite frankly, the Strength line is NOT the current be-all end-all. Burst DPS isn't what we need help with if you are focusing on more than just damage. Anyone needing any kind of AE aggro control will be doing Wisdom line. Anyone wanting decent damage will have Crits. Anyone wanting PvP oriented bonuses will be doing Stamina final. Anyone that wants some kind of raid utility will be doing Agi final. Tons of folks still believe that getting 3rd tier damage abilities in 3 lines is better than getting two finals. After the update, you will STILL see a ton of people thinking many different things. The only thing that is going to change is people are going to use weapons now. Honestly, even martial artists in real life had something like handwraps or something. And when facing a person using a weapon like a sword or something, 99% of the time the unarmed guy starts resorting to some impromptu weapon (chair, belt, beer bottle, some kind of gauntlet, etc). It's rare to see a martial arts film where the person is completely barehanded and blocking/parrying weapon blows. So no, I don't see a problem at all with the loss of barehanded combat. As long as we still have weapons like handwraps, knuckledusters, katar, punch daggers, claws, and staves, then I'll consider it realistic enough for a fantasy game. It was nice to have the option to level up without needing to use weapons all the time, however it's not the end of the world... it's not like everyone else isn't in the same boat. </blockquote><p>Ah i missed one point, now other classes are faster in haste and in double attack than us. Oh great, now we miss the title of "Martial Arts user", tomorrow we'll see use them better than us, even if that class is more rude and simple than our.</p><p>Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap Clap  (applause) </p><p>Bha, frankly i think that this forum is not populated only by users, but also by members/employers payd to defend the SOE's operate, by writing whatever SOE want to say to the users. Because I really don't understand why these people does not see these "basic things".</p>

[Supp]

<cite>Catodon wrote:</cite><blockquote>Cornbread Muffin wrote: <blockquote><p>This isn't a parse, just fuzzy math, but if you do 50% of your damage from CAs (seems about normal from what I have read) then +6% CA damage = +3% DPS, or +45 DPS if your prevsious total was 1500.</p></blockquote>This guess looks about right to me.  It makes sense too, when you consider the dropping of unarmed requirement... I will miss the flavor aspect of unarmed but the replacement needs to be in line with the rest of the tree now that you can use them all together.  Mantis Bolt and Crane Twirl right now work out to ~3-5% dps increase each, more or less, looks like the Str 3 will have approximately the same value. Effects of this that jump out at me: Str line by itself is no longer the default choice for levelling a brawler (free fabled equivalent DR from bare fists, we knew ye well.) The Str line becomes a viable choice for raiding brawlers... the crushing debuff from the 2nd skill is arguably more worthwhile now than the sta/wis/int level 2 skills. Overall I don' t see this change having any drastic effect for bruisers who are already lvl 70... all the lines will now increase dps moderately and tanking slightly while granting a few nice utilities here and there.  Will be a major inconvenience for existing Str line users who have to go shopping, hehe, though I suppose it has to be done sometime in order to make the epic weapon quest stuff in the expansion workable. </blockquote><p>I have to completely agree Cat. </p><p>I believe we will get about 5.75% CA dmg increase and about 345 additional mit. For a brawler on the roll, this change will hurt. But a 70 with two fabled's? It looks like a nice benefit. I will almost certainly go STR/INT, though Im sure there will be plenty of STR/WIS brawlers as well.</p><p>When a lot of us complain about brawlers having no place, we really mean in raid. But we dont get to hear much from raid brawlers, because they are typically shunned from the raid force, an endangered species if you will. Normally you'll have a slack spot in the raid where you can place a brawler, but really anyone could go there. Occasionally, you do have to have a brawlers, but that's ok because there are usually two or three alts brawlers parked out front. For me, this change will increase both my dps and survivability. I will be sad to see my teleport/crit ability go away on the STA line (because I'll be switching), but the STR line looks like a win/win for me. This is definitely not enough of a fix for brawlers, but it's a step in right direction imho. </p>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<cite>Rezzonico wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Bha, frankly i think that this forum is not populated only by users, but also by members/employers payd to defend the SOE's operate, by writing whatever SOE want to say to the users. Because I really don't understand why these people does not see these "basic things".</p></blockquote> Maybe it's because english isn't your first language, but I have a really hard time understanding your points. To me, it sounds like you are genuinely flipping out over things that don't warrant the level of response you are giving. In all honesty, unarmed combat never was that great in EQ2 for 90% of the game. For only a brief period during the start of KoS up until EoF was it somewhat comparable to end game weapon choices. Maybe you only really started playing the game with KoS... who knows. But I've been playing back since we ran around with Round Shields, heh... I wonder how you'd have reacted to that. I never said that the Brawler AA's shouldn't be different. Hell, click on my name and check out my posts in the Test forums. I've specifically said and detailed a change to our Strength line that would include Double Attack and Ripostes. I just don't think your level of extreme outrage over the situation is warranted. Either you are trying to exaggerate your point, or you really need to take a chill pill. Either way, it's excessive. And quite frankly, people aren't inclined to listen to the guy saying everything is crap and the makers of the game don't know what they are doing, and whatnot. You want to change opinions? Speak in a reasonable manner with specific logical reasoning rather than "Bruce Lee didn't use weapons, he'd be turning in his grave". Cuz really... I don't think Bruce Lee would give a [Removed for Content].

[neon_24]

<b>Brawler</b><ul><li>Stamina 5 - Mantis Leap: Removed power cost. It can also teleport to a target ally or enemy. Reuse speed increased from 60s to 45s.</li><li>Restored original Brawler Strength 2, 3, and 4 achievements to how they are on live.</li></ul> Discuss....

[Kainsei]

Lothous@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote><b>Brawler</b><ul><li>Stamina 5 - Mantis Leap: Removed power cost. It can also teleport to a target ally or enemy. Reuse speed increased from 60s to 45s.</li><li>Restored original Brawler Strength 2, 3, and 4 achievements to how they are on live.</li></ul> </blockquote>*During the AA revamp* Dev01 : ok, what's next ? Dev02 : hmm... I think we're done... ah ! we forgot the brawlers ! Dev01 : brawlers, brawlers... Well, they're like uh... predators, right ? Dev02 : I think so, I've never played one. Dev01 : hmm.. let's give them an upgrade on combat arts, everyone loves combat arts, right ? Dev02 : yeah, that should do it. *a few days later* Dev01 : hm.. I guess they don't look really happy. Dev02 : oh well, let's change everything back to the original AA tree *shrug* Dev01 : we'll give them something useful, next expansion... Dev02 : yeah something amazing like... 10% runspeed ? Well, at least someone listened to our complaints.

[ganjookie]

Lanari@Storms wrote: <blockquote>Lothous@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote><b>Brawler</b><ul><li>Stamina 5 - Mantis Leap: Removed power cost. It can also teleport to a target ally or enemy. Reuse speed increased from 60s to 45s.</li><li>Restored original Brawler Strength 2, 3, and 4 achievements to how they are on live.</li></ul> </blockquote>*During the AA revamp* Dev01 : ok, what's next ? Dev02 : hmm... I think we're done... ah ! we forgot the brawlers ! Dev01 : brawlers, brawlers... Well, they're like uh... predators, right ? Dev02 : I think so, I've never played one. Dev01 : hmm.. let's give them an upgrade on combat arts, everyone loves combat arts, right ? Dev02 : yeah, that should do it. *a few days later* Dev01 : hm.. I guess they don't look really happy. Dev02 : oh well, let's change everything back to the original AA tree *shrug* Dev01 : we'll give them something useful, next expansion... Dev02 : yeah something amazing like... 10% runspeed ? Well, at least someone listened to our complaints. </blockquote>can you post a link to this conversation! 10% runspeed holy $h|^!  Thanks devs!

[ganjookie]

Lothous@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote><b>Brawler</b><ul><li>Stamina 5 - Mantis Leap: Removed power cost. It can also teleport to a target ally or enemy. Reuse speed increased from 60s to 45s.</li><li>Restored original Brawler Strength 2, 3, and 4 achievements to how they are on live.</li></ul> Discuss.... </blockquote>on a more serious note.  I think the developer for bruisers in lost on vacation. Nobody knows [Removed for Content] to do now that "Developer Johnson" is stuck in the jungles of South America.   Get a developer in here to talk to us and spread some ideas around.  Lets get some feedback from somebody working on us. Other departments have developer postings now n' then.  Why can they post on what they are doing in the future, and whats on their minds? Are the developers in charge of class/subclass' unable to speak to us? Ohh look <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=366846" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">here</a> is a post to the tradeskillers.  <b><span style="color: #ff0000">DominoDev</span></b> sure seems to care about her work.  She is a great person to have, if you're a tradeskiller.  Grimwell, is there anything you can tell us about the Bruiser AAs?  Can you sneak a peek at some paper work and say. "Hey I've seen it.  The developer(s) in charge of your class have a plan.  Here is what they are working towards."  Getting information to the community here, about what SoE plans to do, before, it is sprung upon us in the GU, would be most helpful to a lot of the debates and struggles customers are having with the bruiser class.  If there is a developer incharge of brawlers/bruisers reading through here, here are a couple of question I have about my class. <ul><li>Does SoE want Brawlers to reliably tank Raid type mobs and nameds?</li><ul><li>Would we be comparable to a plate tank on all levels of gear, or would only the best (fabled) geared out brawlers be capable  of this.</li></ul><li>Does SoE have a plan for Brawlers to clearly choose a DPS path or a tank path?</li><li>Will there be a clear visual distinction between Bruisers and Monks, besides a skull cap or a peasant hat? </li></ul> I mean no harm against "Developer Johnson", but when Bruisers have been trampled upon for long, (since we lost our AQ Gi some time ago) one begins to wonder what is in store for us in the new expansion.  Thanks!

[tt66]

On a related topic : <li>Agility 3 - Ambidexterity: Increased reuse speed bonus from 1 to 1.5% per rank.</li><li>Agility 5 - Altruism: Improved reuse speed from 15 minutes to 5 minutes, increases hate positions towards entire encounter twice. Increased health of targeted ally by 10% instead of 5%.</li> Is it just me, or does this go some way towards actually making the Agi line half-decent for raiding? At least slapping Altruism on the necro so he doesn't kill himself during a lifeburn <b>kinda</b> counts as "raid utility"!!

[Supp]

<cite>tt66 wrote:</cite><blockquote>On a related topic : <li>Agility 3 - Ambidexterity: Increased reuse speed bonus from 1 to 1.5% per rank.</li><li>Agility 5 - Altruism: Improved reuse speed from 15 minutes to 5 minutes, increases hate positions towards entire encounter twice. Increased health of targeted ally by 10% instead of 5%.</li> Is it just me, or does this go some way towards actually making the Agi line half-decent for raiding? At least slapping Altruism on the necro so he doesn't kill himself during a lifeburn <b>kinda</b> counts as "raid utility"!! </blockquote><p> Nah, that's what the Necro FD is for. It's on the same timer as LB, so theyre never in danger. </p><p>So, has anything changed for the brawler now, except 15 seconds off mantis leap? I do use mantis leap, but I think I would rather have had the mit and CA dmg increase. I wont begrudge the rest of the levelling brawlers theyre double attack since they seem to love it so much. I remember how insane the double attack was during my levelling, but it's pretty mediocre on the top end. </p>

[Lai]

Lothous@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote><b>Brawler</b> <ul><li>Stamina 5 - Mantis Leap: Removed power cost. It can also teleport to a target ally or enemy. Reuse speed increased from 60s to 45s.</li><li>Restored original Brawler Strength 2, 3, and 4 achievements to how they are on live.</li></ul> Discuss.... </blockquote><p> OMG... [Removed for Content] is this B.S.?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?</p><p>Ok, great so we get one decent change this LU, with Crane Flock being reduced to a 3 minute timer...... big freakin' deal!</p><p>Seriously SOE y'all SUCK!!</p><p> STR line is the most worthless pile of crap ever.... at least lose the unarmed requirement for it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</p>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

There's also the doubling of the proc to 16% chance. Which will be nice for holding more ae aggro. That and the removal of weapon requirements on the 2nd tier attacks. Honestly, I wasn't going to change from my Wisdom/Intel 4, 4, 8, 6, 2 spec anyways... so this basically gets me an extra AE smackdown and flipmob without having to change weapons ever, as well as extra proc'ing and faster recharge Crane Flock, near to the point that I'll use it anytime it's safe to do so... not just when I need the AE aggro. I'd imagine that I'll be getting a slightly higher DPS on boss fights, and a decent boost to AE fights now. Zonewide my DPS will probably go up a bit and holding aggro will be a slight bit easier. Honestly though... I'd rather they gave us multi-target autoattack in the Wis line instead. And weapon useable double attack in the Strength line. DPS Spec would being Str/Wis/Int 4, 4, 8 again. If they reduced Chi to 5 minute recast, I'd be hard pressed to keeping the Int line... Str/Wis might suddenly become a fairly nice combo for holding aggro. But I'm guessing that's wishful thinking.

[Cornbread Muffin]

<p>A big part of this game is about getting equipment. I can't raid to get better fists that I can screw onto my arms. I can't quest to be rewarded with a better fist. I can't adorn my fist. If some players want the flavor of fighting with their hands then make the visual for fistwraps the same as unarmed (for all I know it already is) and make a few legendary and fabled fistwrap weapons using the little "hand" icon (like Closing Time - great weapon name, btw. <img src="/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> They can have all the "unarmed" combat they can handle by slapping some cloth over their hands and going to town, but can still be part of the rest of the game's mechanics.</p><p>I do not want to be the class that is shouldered with uneffective "flavor" mechanics specific to our class. Flavor and mechanics can work hand in hand, you just have to design it right. I think my idea above for having fistwraps *be* unarmed fighting is the best solution. It allows people to have their unarmed combat look and flavor but still participate in the same mechanics as everyone else.</p>

[Lai]

<p>Why remove all other weapon requirements and leave our STR line as unarmed.... Doesn't make any sense, and if the only reason is b/c ppl like the look of fighting w/o weapons then SOE is dumb as hell.  </p><p>REMOVE the unarmed requirement period.... if ppl want that look then give them those little closing time weapons, like was just mentioned and make it appear unarmed... but don't rob the rest of us of a line that COULD be decent.... but is currently useless, 'specially to raiders.</p>

[Cornbread Muffin]

<p>This is just conjecture, but it makes the most sense so it is what I'm going with for now:</p><p>After the outcry they decided to rethink the STR line but they are going to need more time than is left for the patch. So, they are revoking those changes before they go live and will get back to it later. Of course, later will probably be 2010, but I believe that is the general intent. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Guitar_Guy]

This was NOT a bad change, reverting the STR line back to its originale state.  As far as raiders go, possibly, but as far as the casual gamer goes (and that includes the majority of the population), it was a good change.  For those that could not get a FABLED or possibly even LEGENDARY item that matched their playstyle and/or preferred AA tree, bare-fisted was a good alternative with the current AA setup.  The raiders do not pay the bills alone.  The players do.  And brawlers in general are the ONLY class that have bare-fisted melee as an option, so it's only fair that that option get some recognition too.

[Agaxiq]

At least they brought it back to something that works well, although I would have liked to do a parse with their changes before anything else. My votes for changes to the class: General: 1) Named/Yellow/Epics should consider our avoidance a bit more than they do now. CA's 1) Hardened Skin should just be a stifle+root instead of a stun.  Right now its almost a useless ability. 2) Kidney Punch should have its reuse timer lowered. 3) Sonic Fists should work at melee range if we choose. 4) The proc on our offensive / combo stance should occur more frequently or be larger. 5) Vigorous Spirit should also boost magic resistance as well. AA's 1) Chi should be on a 3-5 minute re-use timer max. 2) Eagle Shriek should have a larger mit boost with magic resistance boost, or occur below 40% instead of 30%. 3) The Sacrifice line in the Bruiser tree looks like complete filler and should be scrapped and redone. 4) Close mind requires 2 different skills to have 3 points - it should be one or the other. 5) Drag should be moved to the Attention line and a new final ability for knockouts look like this: Focused Bruising: Cast Time 2 secs Duration 30 secs Re-use: 5 min * Increases melee crit chance by 50% * Lowers mitigation of caster vs. All Damage by 1500 (or some scaled number) * Decreases defense of caster by 25 (or some scaled number) So, you probably wouldnt want to use this ability while tanking, but its still usable when we're in dps mode for a nice increase in DPS. I dont expect any of this to happen, but if just a few of these changes were to occur, we'd be a lot more useful. agressiv

[ganjookie]

hmmm

[Rezzonico]

Agaxiq@Unrest wrote: <blockquote>At least they brought it back to something that works well, although I would have liked to do a parse with their changes before anything else. My votes for changes to the class: General: 1) Named/Yellow/Epics should consider our avoidance a bit more than they do now. CA's 1) Hardened Skin should just be a stifle+root instead of a stun.  Right now its almost a useless ability. 2) Kidney Punch should have its reuse timer lowered. 3) Sonic Fists should work at melee range if we choose. 4) The proc on our offensive / combo stance should occur more frequently or be larger. 5) Vigorous Spirit should also boost magic resistance as well. AA's 1) Chi should be on a 3-5 minute re-use timer max. 2) Eagle Shriek should have a larger mit boost with magic resistance boost, or occur below 40% instead of 30%. 3) The Sacrifice line in the Bruiser tree looks like complete filler and should be scrapped and redone. 4) Close mind requires 2 different skills to have 3 points - it should be one or the other. 5) Drag should be moved to the Attention line and a new final ability for knockouts look like this: Focused Bruising: Cast Time 2 secs Duration 30 secs Re-use: 5 min * Increases melee crit chance by 50% * Lowers mitigation of caster vs. All Damage by 1500 (or some scaled number) * Decreases defense of caster by 25 (or some scaled number) So, you probably wouldnt want to use this ability while tanking, but its still usable when we're in dps mode for a nice increase in DPS. I dont expect any of this to happen, but if just a few of these changes were to occur, we'd be a lot more useful. agressiv </blockquote><p>to many things my friend <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p> what i suggest are these:</p><p>AA:</p><p>-On str line the 3  abilty increase dps from 20 to 30, so unarmed fight will be slightly better.</p><p>-Eagle shriek increase some more Mitigation...about 400 mit more.</p><p>- Keep Bad Karma on Chi, but increase the duration to 40 seconds on positive and negative effect. Reduce slightly the bad karma effects. Improve the reuse speed the devs said. </p><p>CA:</p><p>-Slap around should interrupts targets in area</p><p>-Sonic Fist works also in close combat.</p><p>-Offensive Stance and Middle stance i suggest to add a Proc over time. As the bruiser after it throw all CA have few seconds autoattack fighting. So i suggest a very low proc damage, just to continue attacking the target.</p><p> Example: Blistering fist  1.8 times per minutes 500 - 600, inflict 60 heat damage on target every 4 seconds for 12 seconds.</p><p>But in this case, adding a thing like this, i will decrease the proc damage slightly off course <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  (example: from 500-600 to 500-550, 450-500). Because i don't think it's important how how hard you can hit, but how much you can hit over time.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Antas22]

Very glad they decided to leave STR line alone (except for improving Chi, which was necessary). Those who are complaining need to relax and realize that there are 69 levels <i>other than</i> 70. I liken it to Rogue's STA line, which is also nigh useless on the high end, but can be very useful for levelling. Not <i>everything</i> needs to cater to the Fabled out level 70s. They still need to bring AGI line up more though. Or even better, change STA line to AGI (makes a lot more sense, I think), and make STA line things that increase our tanking/taunting ability. And what's up with Warrior's getting a higher melee crit chance than us? That's just wrong, plain and simple, and that wasn't addressed in the least. As for other improvements, I'd suggest that, rather than making Sonic Fist work in close combat, just add a stifle effect to it. That would make it a highly useful skill, particularly for pulling casters when body pulling isn't necessary.

[Rezzonico]

Antas@Oasis wrote: <blockquote>Very glad they decided to leave STR line alone (except for improving Chi, which was necessary). Those who are complaining need to relax and realize that there are 69 levels <i>other than</i> 70. I liken it to Rogue's STA line, which is also nigh useless on the high end, but can be very useful for levelling. Not <i>everything</i> needs to cater to the Fabled out level 70s. They still need to bring AGI line up more though. Or even better, change STA line to AGI (makes a lot more sense, I think), and make STA line things that increase our tanking/taunting ability. And what's up with Warrior's getting a higher melee crit chance than us? That's just wrong, plain and simple, and that wasn't addressed in the least. As for other improvements, I'd suggest that, rather than making Sonic Fist work in close combat, just add a stifle effect to it. That would make it a highly useful skill, particularly for pulling casters when body pulling isn't necessary. </blockquote><p> mmmmmm about the Melee crits of other classes, i have some doubt...we have to let them do more crits...as a sword for example will hurt more than a normal pounch, kick or else.</p><p><b>But i don't admit that other fighters attack faster than us xD... (except for monks when play on offensive stance)</b></p><p>About the AA let them as they are now on position ...also the Brig/Swashie has the DPS line on STAMINA and he must use One handed...then keep this sistem of "check and balance" <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>