Why does Exile Exist

[KannaWhoopass]

<p>What was the point of Exile faction? </p><p>What void did it fill in the game that was missing before?</p><p>These are question I find myself asking lately. </p><p>I was a latecomer to the PvP servers, but came soon enough that I remember when there were no exiles.  I don't remember there being a problem with the 2 cities going at it. The balance between Freeport and Qeynos, was not always 50/50 but there were a lot of people, compared to now, and PvP was everywhere.</p><p>Then came the exiles. At first few people went exile as the thought of losing all spells, when moving to another city was not appealing. Then Exiles were open season for all players, so exiling early meant you were going to be killed in every zone you were in, A LOT. Exile slowly became the place where lvl 70's who wanted to PvP vs everyone went. With few Exiles in existence, it meant that most of the server was fair game. And for those who wanted to PvP it was a good place to be.</p><p>Then things started to change. More and more guilds went Exile. And even then it wasn't so bad in the start , and led to some fun PvP encounters .. With 3 groups fighting.. The chaos was funny, in team speak you would hear "Are they attacking us or them" .. "I don't know who to kill" .."Should we help them then kill them?" .. </p><p>As larger segments of the community hit 70 there is a natural progression toward raids to increase the gear of your character. This is where Exile start to pull away from the other 2 factions. At lvl 70 there is no downside to being an Exile, in fact it is a bonus. The potential is there to make better groups for PvP. </p><p>The groups are not exceptionally better just a little better. Having a brigand and swashie in the same group.... I'm sure ya know what I mean. These are not way overpowered groups in comparison to the all Q or all Freep groups, but they have to potential to be a little better. </p><p>The little better starts to show up is you add groups, a X2 exile group , is better. A X4 Exile raid .. is a lot better. </p><p>I'm talking about groups where all classes are available to make the raids with, I mean maxing the potential of the raids. A pickup raid of Exile vs a Pickup raid of Q or Freeps will be the same. But when raid guilds are forming perfect raids , you can't beat an exile raid.  </p><p>Brigands and swashie debuffs, defiler debuffs, mystics and templars  and inquisitors Ohhh my.</p><p>You have in effect the PvE raid. Which would be fine except this is a PvP server. Many argue that it shouldn't matter .. but it does. The accomplishments of the Exile guilds surpass that of Qyenos or Freeport on all of the PvP servers.  Be in killing Wuoshi .. or mayong .. or the Avatars. All of the difficult mobs are being killed by exile guilds.   That kind of imbalance makes the 2 other factions look like second fiddle. But why is it this way ? Why is a faction made up of exile players with no city . The strongest faction in the game? It makes no sense!</p><p>That a group of exiles living in a hole in the ground , can worship all of the gods, use all of the classes and have the edge on killing end game content seems wrong!. Not only from a role-play perspective which I don't do .. or from a lore perspective . But how is it logical that a bunch of cave dwellers can field superior forces that the 2 major cities.? As it is now on Nagafen the Exile faction is BY FAR the strongest on the server. If it were possible they could roll in to Freeport and throw the Overlord out on his rump. Kill the city and take it over. </p><p>Exile is too good in my opinion, and its existence does more to ruin the game than enhance it. </p><p>This is why I think so 1) as a in game example and 2) as a out of game example. </p><ul><li>1) There is no incentive to PvP as an Exile. Many went exile to PvP whenever they want. Ok that's was fine can't blame them. But once you are exile the only goal is to get a title or just enjoy killing opponents. The thing is they don't need to include the other 2 factions to PvP. I have exile characters and when bored in haven .. we would just ask who want to fight. It's like super arena! We would just zone out to the TS exit as a group or singles and PvP away. Challenge others to come out and basically duel. This was fun .. But it excluded the other 2 factions. It didn't enhance PvP for them. </li><li>2) Exiles are free to practice PvP with the PvP ruleset all day long .. guilds can duel amongst themselves. Practice killing each other. The other 2 factions cant.</li><li>3) Exiles offer the "Grass is Greener" appeal for the hardcore player. For players who raid most will try to squeeze every advantage they can when trying to take down end game content. Form perfect groups get resist gear for the encounters bring the best potions.. People like this see the obvious it's better to raid in exile. Many guilds in Freeport and Qyenos have lost chunks of players at a time to Exile guilds because of the lure of better raids. It results in weaker guilds on the other 2 sides.</li></ul><p>This leads to how it degrades play outside the game. </p><ul><li>1) I have lost some guild mates to Exile. We were in a solid guild. Out raiding went into a slump when EOF came out and it took us a while to adjust to the new mitigation changes. It was frustrating for us but we got better adjusted. At this time Exile guilds started to pull away in accomplishments. Cheldrak , Matron , Clearing Freethinkers. All of these accomplishments were being done in Exile first. The end result was that many members grew bitter , and decided to Exile. Because there is no communication. Many in the guild lost contact with friends and people they enjoyed playing with. </li><li>2) Once in Exile there is no going back!! Exile guilds have a better time keeping members. Mostly because..where are they going to go!. They can go to other guilds in exile, but few are ever going to return to a city and loose all master and adept spells they have worked for. The Exile community can keep a relatively stable population, whereas the other 2 factions only loose players. It is rare for Exiles to return. The normal path is Go exile.. then quit game . Im not saying they being exile will make them quit , just saying they will be there till they leave the game most times. I know many players who grew tired of their exile guild, or were kicked out. Who would have returned to Freeport or Qeynos .. but the thought of starting all over was too much . they quit. I suppose im trying to say I see Exile as a lure for those wishing to enjoy PvE raiding .. but if it doesn't work out for them .. they leave which degrades the enjoyment for all for us .. we lose friends and enemies alike. </li></ul><p>It has been bothering me lately so im sry if I wrote a rambleing post. Perhaps it's because I find myself on the verge of going Exile. And know if it doesn't work out for me .. ill be leaving. </p><p>I just feel that exile served no purpose other than to create a faction more powerful than the rest. I see no reason for it to exist. I think it should if anything been a home for the PvP player. Not the raider. </p><p>Perhaps not being able to form raids greater than a X2 . Or not having access to any gods but the neutral ones. </p><p>Or something to allow it to be fun for the PvP player , but not such a distinct advantage to the Raid force. </p><p>Man this post is 1400 words ... long enough .. do any feel like I do ?  </p><p>         </p>

[Groma]

Easy solution, stop forcing us to raid for gear on pvp servers and there is much less incentive to go exile.  Plop a merchant in every city, where you can spend status/cash/tokens on the best gear in game and go pvp with it, and there wont be a need for anyone to exile once SOE fixes the population issues.

[KannaWhoopass]

<p>Well that is where i would not agree. </p><p> I dont see PvP as the game, i see it as spice to the existing game.</p><p>Its gravy, not the meal. </p><p>The idea of a PvP only server isnt my thing, i think raids are am important part of everquest and promote </p><p>teamwork , and are the glue that keep guilds together</p><p>But that one faction has a distinct advantage it this area is one of my gripes. </p><p>Which brings me back to .. </p><p>Why do they exist? </p>

[Groma]

Well, strictly my opinion, but here goes. PvP servers were implemented for pvp.  PvP should be the main focus of anyone here, cause if you wanted to raid you could have done it on a blue server.  There was a reason pvp servers were launched so much later than the others, most people who rolled new toons on pvp servers did not do it because they wanted to power grind another toon to 70 then do the whole raid thing all over again.  KoS forced people to raid for most of their gear, which the majority of was not a HUGE upgrade to lots of the legendary stuff available, but it did give a distinct advantage especially when you had it in bulk. EoF fixed that for faction players, to an extent, but it proceeded to break the rest of the game for those that enjoyed raiding.  Pre-EoF, i think(not 100% on this) all of KoS had been cleared by Q only and FP only guilds, so it was possible to raid without the class advantages of both sides(read: exiles).  EoF launched and they designed mobs that plain and simple require classes from one side or the other to beat.  Mobs that require 30k spike dps, yet as Qeynosians don't have the pve debuffs of a brigand, just as 1 simple example.  To compensate, PvP gear was given to cities and collection jewelery was the best resist gear in game(perfect for pvp).  If you want to raid, a serious dilema as you mentioned before, but for non-raiders it was a godsend. Basically, and again this is just my own opinion, sony turned pvp servers into JUST pvp servers with the only viable option for a legitimate raid build being Exile.  Everyone in exile did not do so to raid, but thats a whole different can of worms.  But they set it up, whether intentionally or not, so that everyone can have their cake and eat it to, but it all depends on what alignment you are willing to pick.

[Bloodfa]

<cite>KannaWhoopass wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Well that is where i would not agree. </p><p><u> I dont see PvP as the game, i see it as spice to the existing game.</u></p><p><u>Its gravy, not the meal.</u> </p><p><u>The idea of a PvP only server isnt my thing, i think raids are am important part of everquest and promote </u></p><p><u>teamwork , and are the glue that keep guilds together</u></p><p>But that one faction has a distinct advantage it this area is one of my gripes. </p><p>Which brings me back to .. </p><p>Why do they exist? </p></blockquote>Not that it's worth much, but I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of PvP, and its' place in the grand scheme of things.

[Bozidar]

<cite>Gromann wrote:</cite><blockquote>Easy solution, stop forcing us to raid for gear on pvp servers and there is much less incentive to go exile.  Plop a merchant in every city, where you can spend status/cash/tokens on the best gear in game and go pvp with it, and there wont be a need for anyone to exile once SOE fixes the population issues. </blockquote> Why do you need to go exile in order to get the best gear in the game?  And why would you want to exile to go spend all that time raiding when you can get pvp gear which is almost as good?

[Groma]

<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gromann wrote:</cite><blockquote>Easy solution, stop forcing us to raid for gear on pvp servers and there is much less incentive to go exile.  Plop a merchant in every city, where you can spend status/cash/tokens on the best gear in game and go pvp with it, and there wont be a need for anyone to exile once SOE fixes the population issues. </blockquote> Why do you need to go exile in order to get the best gear in the game?  And why would you want to exile to go spend all that time raiding when you can get pvp gear which is almost as good?</blockquote>Boz, as never being in T7 raids you wouldn't understand much, but i'll attempt to explain it.  Some mobs are designed to be killed only with certain classes available.  Some of these classes are not available to all sides.  Raid mobs(bosses mainly) drop the best gear in game, and you need a successful raid to kill them.  Exiles cannot get the pvp gear that is just as good, but we like the ability to FFA pvp, and everyone(i hope) likes the idea of more pvp targets.  We have to raid if we want to stay competitive in the gear department, taking away from our pvp experience which is why the majority plays on a pvp server.

[CresentBlade]

<p>Exile was put in place so that people could change teams. ie Freeport to Qeynos and Qeynos to Freeport. Now there are new Citys so you can Exile to Gfay and Neriak now as well. Exile gets you from one team to the to another and lets you have more targets in pvp. </p><p>If you want faction gear pick a team. If theres something you dont like about Exile, pick a team.</p>

[Luxun]

<cite>Gromann wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well, strictly my opinion, but here goes. PvP servers were implemented for pvp.  PvP should be the main focus of anyone here, cause if you wanted to raid you could have done it on a blue server.  There was a reason pvp servers were launched so much later than the others, most people who rolled new toons on pvp servers did not do it because they wanted to power grind another toon to 70 then do the whole raid thing all over again.  KoS forced people to raid for most of their gear, which the majority of was not a HUGE upgrade to lots of the legendary stuff available, but it did give a distinct advantage especially when you had it in bulk. EoF fixed that for faction players, to an extent, but it proceeded to break the rest of the game for those that enjoyed raiding.  Pre-EoF, i think(not 100% on this) all of KoS had been cleared by Q only and FP only guilds, so it was possible to raid without the class advantages of both sides(read: exiles).  EoF launched and they designed mobs that plain and simple require classes from one side or the other to beat.  Mobs that require 30k spike dps, yet as Qeynosians don't have the pve debuffs of a brigand, just as 1 simple example.  To compensate, PvP gear was given to cities and collection jewelery was the best resist gear in game(perfect for pvp).  If you want to raid, a serious dilema as you mentioned before, but for non-raiders it was a godsend. Basically, and again this is just my own opinion, sony turned pvp servers into JUST pvp servers with the only viable option for a legitimate raid build being Exile.  Everyone in exile did not do so to raid, but thats a whole different can of worms.  But they set it up, whether intentionally or not, so that everyone can have their cake and eat it to, but it all depends on what alignment you are willing to pick. </blockquote><p>As much as I hate raids, and pve I have to disagree here. I like pvp in a social enviorment that players of all kimds are around. Which is why SWG imo was one of the bets mmos ever created. When you get a pvp server and only have the hardcore pvp population, it feels like a cage to me ...or a ring. I liek to pvp in a more social friendly enviorment where competition in pvp isn't the only reason to play. </p><p>However I know there are a lot of people out there who strictly enjoy pvp. IMO what would have beenthe best solution was noit include the exile faction on pvp servers. Keep adding the fable sets for both pve and pvp. Allow peope lto choose how they liek to play their pvp server. </p><p>That way al lthe pvpers will constently be at each other's throat to get gear, while those that dont enjoy a hardcore pvp enviorment, couldraid/pvp as a mix. IMO for a server to feel alive you need all kind of players on it, dividing the servers with play styles is the worst idea in mmos imo. </p>

[Nagbok]

i dont think because its a PvP server that should be the only thing on peoples minds yes it is fun but so is farming for epic equipment and doing HQs for sweet items. I love when i get a new item and get to test it out pvp and thats how the game shouldve been from day one is pvp but it is just begun to blossom it gets better and better each update. yes you may say you hate it more and more each update but thats because they are balancing it as they go and each update is a chance to fix it a little more to see how muuch more to go.

[Image_Vain]

<cite>Gromann wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well, strictly my opinion, but here goes. PvP servers were implemented for pvp.  PvP should be the main focus of anyone here, cause if you wanted to raid you could have done it on a blue server.  There was a reason pvp servers were launched so much later than the others, most people who rolled new toons on pvp servers did not do it because they wanted to power grind another toon to 70 then do the whole raid thing all over again.  KoS forced people to raid for most of their gear, which the majority of was not a HUGE upgrade to lots of the legendary stuff available, but it did give a distinct advantage especially when you had it in bulk. EoF fixed that for faction players, to an extent, but it proceeded to break the rest of the game for those that enjoyed raiding.  Pre-EoF, i think(not 100% on this) all of KoS had been cleared by Q only and FP only guilds, so it was possible to raid without the class advantages of both sides(read: exiles).  EoF launched and they designed mobs that plain and simple require classes from one side or the other to beat.  Mobs that require 30k spike dps, yet as Qeynosians don't have the pve debuffs of a brigand, just as 1 simple example.  To compensate, PvP gear was given to cities and collection jewelery was the best resist gear in game(perfect for pvp).  If you want to raid, a serious dilema as you mentioned before, but for non-raiders it was a godsend. Basically, and again this is just my own opinion, sony turned pvp servers into JUST pvp servers with the only viable option for a legitimate raid build being Exile.  Everyone in exile did not do so to raid, but thats a whole different can of worms.  But they set it up, whether intentionally or not, so that everyone can have their cake and eat it to, but it all depends on what alignment you are willing to pick. </blockquote> I respect your views and opinions, but you are very wrong, heres why. [1]: <span style="color: #cc0000">as a reason pvp servers were launched so much later than the others. </span> The reason the were launched so much later is in fact, because they never wanted to add PvP in the first place, never even thought about it, but "BECAUSE" people begged for PvP, over, and over, and over, again, Sony added it. [2]: <span style="color: #cc0000">Basically, and again this is just my own opinion, sony turned pvp servers into JUST pvp servers with.</span> Wrong again, if this was true, they GU36 update that will be coming soon to nerf all classes of damage would be for PVE aswell, and wouldn't take out the time to make sure it was just when you attacked/was attacked by another player. PvP is just an added feature, it isn't the server, it isn't the main focus, and it wasn't planed at all.

[Bawang]

<cite>CresentBlade wrote:</cite><blockquote>Now there are new Citys so you can Exile to Gfay and Neriak now as well.</blockquote> Hmmm....no.  On PvP servers an exile would be carnage flagged whenever he enters ANY city.  It's back to the rathole for joo!

[Amphibia]

<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gromann wrote:</cite><blockquote>Easy solution, stop forcing us to raid for gear on pvp servers and there is much less incentive to go exile.  Plop a merchant in every city, where you can spend status/cash/tokens on the best gear in game and go pvp with it, and there wont be a need for anyone to exile once SOE fixes the population issues. </blockquote> Why do you need to go exile in order to get the best gear in the game?  And why would you want to exile to go spend all that time raiding when you can get pvp gear which is almost as good?</blockquote>This is incorrect. Some of the best gear is actually the PvP set that came out with EoF. And that is far easier to aquire than gear from raids. Maybe they should give you city folks a good set of jewelry too, then you wouldn't have to worry about raiding at all. To answer your second question: Even though it is a PVP server, the game is still more than just PvP. Some people actually enjoy raiding, and wants to take down the endgame mobs. (Another wonderful thing about the exiled faction is that you can attack everyone... <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )

[KannaWhoopass]

<p>Nice posts no one biting anyones head off. </p><p>But not alot of posts as to why Exiles exist at all. </p><p>I remember the betray quests when you had to kill 200 gnolls .. or whatever insane number it was. </p><p>You didnt have a city .. you were an exile. </p><p>There is no need for a Exile city. </p><p>No need for an Exile guild NPC or cloak designer , or tradeskill area. </p><p>Why was just being attackable from every person in the game not good enough. </p><p>What void in the game did Exile fill. </p><p>Why do we have them at all. </p>

[Groma]

<cite>Image_Vain wrote:</cite><blockquote>I respect your views and opinions, but you are very wrong, heres why. [1]: <span style="color: #cc0000">as a reason pvp servers were launched so much later than the others. </span> The reason the were launched so much later is in fact, because they never wanted to add PvP in the first place, never even thought about it, but "BECAUSE" people begged for PvP, over, and over, and over, again, Sony added it. [2]: <span style="color: #cc0000">Basically, and again this is just my own opinion, sony turned pvp servers into JUST pvp servers with.</span> Wrong again, if this was true, they GU36 update that will be coming soon to nerf all classes of damage would be for PVE aswell, and wouldn't take out the time to make sure it was just when you attacked/was attacked by another player. PvP is just an added feature, it isn't the server, it isn't the main focus, and it wasn't planed at all. </blockquote>Quote from Gallenite: Found <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=267092" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">HERE</a> <b><i><span style="color: #ffff00">What's up with PvP?</span> </i></b> <div align="justify">With the inclusion of Arena Champions in Desert of Flames, there's been a lot of talk lately about what our plans are for PvP in EverQuest II. Lots of people remember that before we launched, we had always referred to PvP as "something that won't be in EQ2 for launch," but it's always been something that we wanted to include, just not unless we were able to take the time and do it "right."</div> That said, pvp has always been a goal of SOE with EQ2, but they wanted to make sure they do it right.  It isn't the spice or the gravy on pvp servers, thats what the arenas are for on blue servers.  Vox/Naggy/Venekor are all designed to be pvp servers built for the same game as the blue servers.  Feel free to read more detail about how they planned to implement it on that clicky.

[Bozidar]

<cite>Gromann wrote:</cite><blockquote>Boz, as never being in T7 raids you wouldn't understand much, but i'll attempt to explain it.  Some mobs are designed to be killed only with certain classes available.  Some of these classes are not available to all sides.  Raid mobs(bosses mainly) drop the best gear in game, and you need a successful raid to kill them.  Exiles cannot get the pvp gear that is just as good, but we like the ability to FFA pvp, and everyone(i hope) likes the idea of more pvp targets.  We have to raid if we want to stay competitive in the gear department, taking away from our pvp experience which is why the majority plays on a pvp server. </blockquote>Hmm.. .so what you're saying here is that as an exile you have a class advantage to completing raid mobs?  I thought i read somewhere that there was no hard-and-fast advantage to being exile.

[Bloodfa]

<p>Another thought to possibly add on, I know I've seen it elsewhere, but why is Haven completely, totally, and unequivocably safe from PvP?  A collection of transients and traitors are able to muster up a barrier of invulnerability?  Antonia and Lucan together couldn't do this; it makes no sense.</p><p>And just to clarify, no, <i>I </i>wouldn't head in there.  Solo thieves don't last long in <i>any</i> unfriendly city.</p><p>Was Haven necessary?  Does it fill some 'void'?  I don't think so, but just that's my opinion, and only worth as much, or little, as anyone elses.  </p>

[Groma]

Oh, there are certainly hard and fast examples of where exile has an advantage, just not in pvp.  But are we arguing PvE on a PvP server?  The whole point of that post was to say that exiles, Qeynosians and Freeporters alike should not be forced to raid when one of their counterparts does not meet the same requirements.  KoS, everyone had to raid if they wanted the fabled loot, and every mob was capable of being killed by a raid force from any faction(harder for some, but still possible).  EoF changed that by giving 2 factions the best gear in game as a reward for PvPing, forcing the other faction to raid to remain competitive.

[Groma]

Bloodfang@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><p>Another thought to possibly add on, I know I've seen it elsewhere, but why is Haven completely, totally, and unequivocably safe from PvP?  A collection of transients and traitors are able to muster up a barrier of invulnerability?  Antonia and Lucan together couldn't do this; it makes no sense.</p><p>And just to clarify, no, <i>I </i>wouldn't head in there.  Solo thieves don't last long in <i>any</i> unfriendly city.</p><p>Was Haven necessary?  Does it fill some 'void'?  I don't think so, but just that's my opinion, and only worth as much, or little, as anyone elses.  </p></blockquote>Its a hole in the ground, no self respecting citizen of Qeynos or Freeport would venture down into the sewer to hang with thieves would they? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Bloodfa]

<cite>Gromann wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bloodfang@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><p>Another thought to possibly add on, I know I've seen it elsewhere, but why is Haven completely, totally, and unequivocably safe from PvP?  A collection of transients and traitors are able to muster up a barrier of invulnerability?  Antonia and Lucan together couldn't do this; it makes no sense.</p><p>And just to clarify, no, <i>I </i>wouldn't head in there.  Solo thieves don't last long in <i>any</i> unfriendly city.</p><p>Was Haven necessary?  Does it fill some 'void'?  I don't think so, but just that's my opinion, and only worth as much, or little, as anyone elses.  </p></blockquote>Its a hole in the ground, no self respecting citizen of Qeynos or Freeport would venture down into the sewer to hang with thieves would they? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>Well, the whole "self respecting citizen" thing is kind of gray for me. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Bozidar]

<cite>Gromann wrote:</cite><blockquote>Oh, there are certainly hard and fast examples of where exile has an advantage, just not in pvp.  But are we arguing PvE on a PvP server?  The whole point of that post was to say that exiles, Qeynosians and Freeporters alike should not be forced to raid when one of their counterparts does not meet the same requirements.  KoS, everyone had to raid if they wanted the fabled loot, and every mob was capable of being killed by a raid force from any faction(harder for some, but still possible).  EoF changed that by giving 2 factions the best gear in game as a reward for PvPing, forcing the other faction to raid to remain competitive. </blockquote><p> I thought you said above that the best gear in the game was <i>really</i> the raid gear, not pvp gear.  If that's the case, then isn't your advantage in pve thus a net advantage in pvp (even if it requires a lot of raid work, vs a lot of pvp work)?</p>

[tiredang]

<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gromann wrote:</cite><blockquote>Oh, there are certainly hard and fast examples of where exile has an advantage, just not in pvp.  But are we arguing PvE on a PvP server?  The whole point of that post was to say that exiles, Qeynosians and Freeporters alike should not be forced to raid when one of their counterparts does not meet the same requirements.  KoS, everyone had to raid if they wanted the fabled loot, and every mob was capable of being killed by a raid force from any faction(harder for some, but still possible).  EoF changed that by giving 2 factions the best gear in game as a reward for PvPing, forcing the other faction to raid to remain competitive. </blockquote><p> I thought you said above that the best gear in the game was <i>really</i> the raid gear, not pvp gear.  If that's the case, then isn't your advantage in pve thus a net advantage in pvp (even if it requires a lot of raid work, vs a lot of pvp work)?</p></blockquote>It takes so long to actually gear up, I think the cities have the advantage here.  If a guild takes the time to pvp a lot and want to raid, having raid quality gear to start with makes up for having lesser gear but all classes.

[Groma]

<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gromann wrote:</cite><blockquote>Oh, there are certainly hard and fast examples of where exile has an advantage, just not in pvp.  But are we arguing PvE on a PvP server?  The whole point of that post was to say that exiles, Qeynosians and Freeporters alike should not be forced to raid when one of their counterparts does not meet the same requirements.  KoS, everyone had to raid if they wanted the fabled loot, and every mob was capable of being killed by a raid force from any faction(harder for some, but still possible).  EoF changed that by giving 2 factions the best gear in game as a reward for PvPing, forcing the other faction to raid to remain competitive. </blockquote><p> I thought you said above that the best gear in the game was <i>really</i> the raid gear, not pvp gear.  If that's the case, then isn't your advantage in pve thus a net advantage in pvp (even if it requires a lot of raid work, vs a lot of pvp work)?</p></blockquote>As far as armor is concerned, avatars aside, the gear is a toss up.  For some classes, pvp gear is better, for others PvE is. That said, we have one member with 4 pieces of set gear.  This is 3 nights a week, 4ish hours a night raiding. We have several members with full sets of pvp gear rotting in the bank, that they earned before we exiled.  So, lots of pvp gear rotting in the bank from 2 months of work, vs maybe 25 pieces guild wide in 4 months of raiding 12 hours a week.

[MistrNole]

They should make it an FFA server and make it so you can't kill fellow citizens but you CAN group with enemy aligned players if you so wish. Fixed. I just want to be able to kill who I want to kill, and raid. lol. Just my 2 cents.