Plea to the Devs: Please Don't Change the AA System

[xenocide85]

Dear Developers, Please do not change the way AA works at all levels.  As I am sure you aware, many different players play EQ2 for different reasons.  Some people like roleplaying, some people like being part of a guild/online community, some people like grinding to level 70 and raiding, and almost everyone on pvp servers likes pvp.  However, some people like to pvp at lower tiers rather than upper ones. The reasoning you have cited for restricting the amount of AA players can use at lower levels is that certains players became too strong and it was no longer fair to others.  I understand that getting more and more AA does make you stronger, however so does leveling, getting good items,  being in a pvp group, etc.  These are for the most part, all measures of investment of time and money, rather than some type of skill measure, and none of them are fair in that respect.  I initially made a shadowknight and locked him at level 27 and pvp'd for a long time.  I had all fabled/pvp gear in a month or so, and I was really strong - in fact I never came across an even con player or lower that could beat me 1v1 and I had a great time pvping in stormhold, fighitng named and pvping at the same time, and trying to take out groups of green cons.  My point is this though, how is a level X player getting ganked by an even con or green con player who is a twink with AA any different from a level X player getting ganked from a higher level player, just barely within the pvp range, who has good items w/o AA?  I remember back when ppl would very very slowly level up and pvp in solid groups in the their guild at each tier.  If you didn't have a solid pvp group, you didn't stand a chance.  The really good groups could even take out x2 raids.  I mean lets think about this, EQ2 is a game based more largely on anything else, in an investment of time: quests, experience, items, guilds, everything is an investment of time that eventually is reflective in how strong your character becomes.  Players at T7 are nothing more than level lockers at a higher level.  If you're trying to level up to 70, as I'm sure anyone in the past 2 years who had a good pvp titles was abundantly aware, as soon as you were in pvp level range of the 70's, you were screwed.  Not only is their gear better, their level higher, but they most certaintly have had the time to max out their AA.  So my plea is this, if different people get different joys out of playing this game, please do not take away level locker's joy.  For those people who don't enjoy the fact that they can't kill level lockers in their treasured out, adept 1 toon, trust me when I tell you that they wouldn't be able too even if level lockers didn't have AA.  The fun and appeal of getting AA is (1) it takes a lot of time an effort to acrue that many and so it's a really fun pursuit and good felt accomplishment, (2) it allows people to test out various pvp and pve strategies with their characters without having to level up to 70 - personally I like the gameplay between levels 1 and 50  far mroe than I do 50+, and (3) getting lots of AA is not some kind of restrictive goal - it takes no more time and knowledge to get them at a low level than it does for guilds to figure out how to beat, actively try to pursue, raid, and gear out their entire guild - a feat which undoubtidly makes them stronger.  Another point of comparison is that for a long time, reavers of fate and others, including myself, pursued T5 items when locked between levels 40-45 that dropped from raid mobs there is no way we could have killed on our toons.  We either paid people or got higher level characters to help us, and in turn, it gave us an incredibly huge advantage in pvp over other people our level who didn't have those items.  But that is part of the game - you have items and AA for the very reason of improving yourself.  So please, reconsider changing the way AA works - there are lots of players who have invested hundreds of hours into acruing these AA at a low level.   Implementing this change will not only waste the majority of the time they invested, but it will also shatter the goals they've been working towards and possibly demotivate them to continue playing.  Level locking is just a part of EQ2 as high tier end game play is, and I think that's something that needs to be voiced.  Most of the people I read about complaining about level lockers on these boards are (a) level 70's who only enjoy end game play and so they ridicule level lockers and talk about how stupid it is because they want them to come to T7, or (b) new players who complain about not being able to pvp well when they have bad gear and bad spell ability levels, and I'm certain don't have an indepth understanding of how pvp works in this game. Thanks, Youresodead/Catastrophe

[Rajasa]

<p>No offense intended but NO ONE is going to bother reading this. </p><p>Paragraphs are your friend. Learn to use them.</p><p>This is a virtually unreadable wall of text.</p>

[LarsEdvard]

<span style="color: #cc9900">~~Rajasa is right.~~ I came to "Please do not change the way AA works at " before I quit reading</span><img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Magnis]

yes they are right.  I was feeling what he was saying, but six lines down i just gave up.

[KaroX]

<cite>xenocide85 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Dear Developers, Please do not change the way AA works at all levels.  As I am sure you aware, many different players play EQ2 for different reasons.  Some people like roleplaying, some people like being part of a guild/online community, some people like grinding to level 70 and raiding, and almost everyone on pvp servers likes pvp.  However, some people like to pvp at lower tiers rather than upper ones. The reasoning you have cited for restricting the amount of AA players can use at lower levels is that certains players became too strong and it was no longer fair to others.</p><p>  I understand that getting more and more AA does make you stronger, however so does leveling, getting good items,  being in a pvp group, etc.  These are for the most part, all measures of investment of time and money, rather than some type of skill measure, and none of them are fair in that respect.  I initially made a shadowknight and locked him at level 27 and pvp'd for a long time.  I had all fabled/pvp gear in a month or so, and I was really strong - in fact I never came across an even con player or lower that could beat me 1v1 and I had a great time pvping in stormhold, fighitng named and pvping at the same time, and trying to take out groups of green cons.  My point is this though, how is a level X player getting ganked by an even con or green con player who is a twink with AA any different from a level X player getting ganked from a higher level player, just barely within the pvp range, who has good items w/o AA?</p><p>  I remember back when ppl would very very slowly level up and pvp in solid groups in the their guild at each tier.  If you didn't have a solid pvp group, you didn't stand a chance.  The really good groups could even take out x2 raids.  I mean lets think about this, EQ2 is a game based more largely on anything else, in an investment of time: quests, experience, items, guilds, everything is an investment of time that eventually is reflective in how strong your character becomes.  Players at T7 are nothing more than level lockers at a higher level.  If you're trying to level up to 70, as I'm sure anyone in the past 2 years who had a good pvp titles was abundantly aware, as soon as you were in pvp level range of the 70's, you were screwed.  Not only is their gear better, their level higher, but they most certaintly have had the time to max out their AA.</p><p>  So my plea is this, if different people get different joys out of playing this game, please do not take away level locker's joy.  For those people who don't enjoy the fact that they can't kill level lockers in their treasured out, adept 1 toon, trust me when I tell you that they wouldn't be able too even if level lockers didn't have AA.  The fun and appeal of getting AA is (1) it takes a lot of time an effort to acrue that many and so it's a really fun pursuit and good felt accomplishment, (2) it allows people to test out various pvp and pve strategies with their characters without having to level up to 70 - personally I like the gameplay between levels 1 and 50  far mroe than I do 50+, and (3) getting lots of AA is not some kind of restrictive goal - it takes no more time and knowledge to get them at a low level than it does for guilds to figure out how to beat, actively try to pursue, raid, and gear out their entire guild - a feat which undoubtidly makes them stronger.</p><p>  Another point of comparison is that for a long time, reavers of fate and others, including myself, pursued T5 items when locked between levels 40-45 that dropped from raid mobs there is no way we could have killed on our toons.  We either paid people or got higher level characters to help us, and in turn, it gave us an incredibly huge advantage in pvp over other people our level who didn't have those items.  But that is part of the game - you have items and AA for the very reason of improving yourself.  So please, reconsider changing the way AA works - there are lots of players who have invested hundreds of hours into acruing these AA at a low level.   Implementing this change will not only waste the majority of the time they invested, but it will also shatter the goals they've been working towards and possibly demotivate them to continue playing.  Level locking is just a part of EQ2 as high tier end game play is, and I think that's something that needs to be voiced.</p><p>  Most of the people I read about complaining about level lockers on these boards are (a) level 70's who only enjoy end game play and so they ridicule level lockers and talk about how stupid it is because they want them to come to T7, or (b) new players who complain about not being able to pvp well when they have bad gear and bad spell ability levels, and I'm certain don't have an indepth understanding of how pvp works in this game. Thanks, Youresodead/Catastrophe </p></blockquote>Not a bad post, I think the suggested 1.5 AA per level is enough though.

[zorros]

<cite>KaroX wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>xenocide85 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Dear Developers, Please do not change the way AA works at all levels.  As I am sure you aware, many different players play EQ2 for different reasons.  Some people like roleplaying, some people like being part of a guild/online community, some people like grinding to level 70 and raiding, and almost everyone on pvp servers likes pvp.  However, some people like to pvp at lower tiers rather than upper ones. The reasoning you have cited for restricting the amount of AA players can use at lower levels is that certains players became too strong and it was no longer fair to others.</p><p>  I understand that getting more and more AA does make you stronger, however so does leveling, getting good items,  being in a pvp group, etc.  These are for the most part, all measures of investment of time and money, rather than some type of skill measure, and none of them are fair in that respect.  I initially made a shadowknight and locked him at level 27 and pvp'd for a long time.  I had all fabled/pvp gear in a month or so, and I was really strong - in fact I never came across an even con player or lower that could beat me 1v1 and I had a great time pvping in stormhold, fighitng named and pvping at the same time, and trying to take out groups of green cons.  My point is this though, how is a level X player getting ganked by an even con or green con player who is a twink with AA any different from a level X player getting ganked from a higher level player, just barely within the pvp range, who has good items w/o AA?</p><p>  I remember back when ppl would very very slowly level up and pvp in solid groups in the their guild at each tier.  If you didn't have a solid pvp group, you didn't stand a chance.  The really good groups could even take out x2 raids.  I mean lets think about this, EQ2 is a game based more largely on anything else, in an investment of time: quests, experience, items, guilds, everything is an investment of time that eventually is reflective in how strong your character becomes.  Players at T7 are nothing more than level lockers at a higher level.  If you're trying to level up to 70, as I'm sure anyone in the past 2 years who had a good pvp titles was abundantly aware, as soon as you were in pvp level range of the 70's, you were screwed.  Not only is their gear better, their level higher, but they most certaintly have had the time to max out their AA.</p><p>  So my plea is this, if different people get different joys out of playing this game, please do not take away level locker's joy.  For those people who don't enjoy the fact that they can't kill level lockers in their treasured out, adept 1 toon, trust me when I tell you that they wouldn't be able too even if level lockers didn't have AA.  The fun and appeal of getting AA is (1) it takes a lot of time an effort to acrue that many and so it's a really fun pursuit and good felt accomplishment, (2) it allows people to test out various pvp and pve strategies with their characters without having to level up to 70 - personally I like the gameplay between levels 1 and 50  far mroe than I do 50+, and (3) getting lots of AA is not some kind of restrictive goal - it takes no more time and knowledge to get them at a low level than it does for guilds to figure out how to beat, actively try to pursue, raid, and gear out their entire guild - a feat which undoubtidly makes them stronger.</p><p>  Another point of comparison is that for a long time, reavers of fate and others, including myself, pursued T5 items when locked between levels 40-45 that dropped from raid mobs there is no way we could have killed on our toons.  We either paid people or got higher level characters to help us, and in turn, it gave us an incredibly huge advantage in pvp over other people our level who didn't have those items.  But that is part of the game - you have items and AA for the very reason of improving yourself.  So please, reconsider changing the way AA works - there are lots of players who have invested hundreds of hours into acruing these AA at a low level.   Implementing this change will not only waste the majority of the time they invested, but it will also shatter the goals they've been working towards and possibly demotivate them to continue playing.  Level locking is just a part of EQ2 as high tier end game play is, and I think that's something that needs to be voiced.</p><p>  Most of the people I read about complaining about level lockers on these boards are (a) level 70's who only enjoy end game play and so they ridicule level lockers and talk about how stupid it is because they want them to come to T7, or (b) new players who complain about not being able to pvp well when they have bad gear and bad spell ability levels, and I'm certain don't have an indepth understanding of how pvp works in this game. Thanks, Youresodead/Catastrophe </p></blockquote>Not a bad post, I think the suggested 1.5 AA per level is enough though. </blockquote><p>On my lvl 26 inq i have just over 30 aa which is not a bad number.I could get under the new system 37 i think.I really dont see what the fuss is about.The most i have seen (and i doubt its anywhere near the best) is 37 on a 30 and thats without killing himself for debt.</p><p>1.5 aa imo is fine but if they really want to help noobs get a foot in the ladder of the game and not quit they should have no pvp till 20.No excuses for anyone to whine about noobs getting killed and leaving the game.</p><p>I think they prob should have done what they did in eq1 and no aa till you hit lvl 50.</p>

[Groma]

Lagebb@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote> <p>On my lvl 26 inq i have just over 30 aa which is not a bad number.I could get under the new system 37 i think.I really dont see what the fuss is about.The most i have seen (and i doubt its anywhere near the best) is 37 on a 30 and thats without killing himself for debt.</p><p>1.5 aa imo is fine but if they really want to help noobs get a foot in the ladder of the game and not quit they should have no pvp till 20.No excuses for anyone to whine about noobs getting killed and leaving the game.</p><p>I think they prob should have done what they did in eq1 and no aa till you hit lvl 50.</p></blockquote>Honestly, with the removal of XP debt on pvp servers the problem of having more than 1.5AA per level doesn't matter anymore because it won't be easy to achieve.  The reason they are putting a cap on spendable points is because they will not take away earned AAs, but those locked twinks will continute to dominate with an advantage that others will no longer be able to attain.

[zorros]

<cite>Gromann wrote:</cite><blockquote>Lagebb@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote> <p>On my lvl 26 inq i have just over 30 aa which is not a bad number.I could get under the new system 37 i think.I really dont see what the fuss is about.The most i have seen (and i doubt its anywhere near the best) is 37 on a 30 and thats without killing himself for debt.</p><p>1.5 aa imo is fine but if they really want to help noobs get a foot in the ladder of the game and not quit they should have no pvp till 20.No excuses for anyone to whine about noobs getting killed and leaving the game.</p><p>I think they prob should have done what they did in eq1 and no aa till you hit lvl 50.</p></blockquote>Honestly, with the removal of XP debt on pvp servers the problem of having more than 1.5AA per level doesn't matter anymore because it won't be easy to achieve.  The reason they are putting a cap on spendable points is because they will not take away earned AAs, but those locked twinks will continute to dominate with an advantage that others will no longer be able to attain. </blockquote>I still cant see the problem with the new aa exp rate.

[deepruntramp]

I think 1.5 AA per level is still too much, especially with the new no-debt change.  As Gromman noted, it'll make the current locked twinks even more imbalanced. A raw multiplier by level just isn't going to work.  It still favors the low end too much due to the 0-9 span of no AA gain. IMO it needs to scale by tier.  Perhaps something like this: T1 = 0 AA Cap (like it is now) T2 = 10 AA Cap T3 = 20 T4 = 50 T5 = 80 T6 = 100 T7 = 100 Reasoning being, you don't want players to have a zillion AA in T2-T3, when newbies are still learning their classes and barely beginning to speciate from their archetypes, but simultaneously you don't want T6 to be at an even bigger disadvantage when they begin to be in-range to T7s in the best gear.

[LogainReaver]

<cite>Gromann wrote:</cite><blockquote>Lagebb@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote> <p>On my lvl 26 inq i have just over 30 aa which is not a bad number.I could get under the new system 37 i think.I really dont see what the fuss is about.The most i have seen (and i doubt its anywhere near the best) is 37 on a 30 and thats without killing himself for debt.</p><p>1.5 aa imo is fine but if they really want to help noobs get a foot in the ladder of the game and not quit they should have no pvp till 20.No excuses for anyone to whine about noobs getting killed and leaving the game.</p><p>I think they prob should have done what they did in eq1 and no aa till you hit lvl 50.</p></blockquote>Honestly, with the removal of XP debt on pvp servers the problem of having more than 1.5AA per level doesn't matter anymore because it won't be easy to achieve.  The reason they are putting a cap on spendable points is because they will not take away earned AAs, but those locked twinks will continute to dominate with an advantage that others will no longer be able to attain. </blockquote>        I completely sympathise and agree with the OP. And you also make a VERY valid point Gromman.I posted on the origional dev thread before i saw this one, so i will reiterate what i said there. I suggest that if they do intend to go live with the level cap, they should give us the option of COMPLETELY disabling xp so that cap can actually be achieved. That alone will acomplish any kind of balance with the cap.

[Bozidar]

<cite>LogainReaver wrote:</cite><blockquote>       I completely sympathise and agree with the OP. And you also make a VERY valid point Gromman.I posted on the origional dev thread before i saw this one, so i will reiterate what i said there. I suggest that if they do intend to go live with the level cap, they should give us the option of COMPLETELY disabling xp so that cap can actually be achieved. That alone will acomplish any kind of balance with the cap.</blockquote><p> No, they shouldn't.  They should make it so that it's *gasp* HARD to get to the cap.  If everyone and their mother is at cap at lvl 10+, how is that going to find any balance with new players?  At least previously it was somewhat difficult to get a ton of aas, even AT the cap (let alone above).  No reason to make it easy -- at all.</p><p>Remove debt, fix the click-to-examine-when-dead free aa quests, and let folks try to achieve the cap in normal ways.</p>

[Armawk]

<blockquote><cite>Xenocide85 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p> please do not take away level locker's joy.  <b><span style="color: #33cc33">For those people who don't enjoy the fact that they can't kill level lockers in their treasured out, adept 1 toon</span></b>, trust me when I tell you that they wouldn't be able too even if level lockers didn't have AA.  </p></blockquote> </blockquote><p>The thing is, NOBODY ASKED FOR THIS. ever. By characterising those who think the game allows excessive amounts of power at some tiers as people who want to be competitive with no effort, you make it clear you are not serious in your counter arguments because you arent even reading what you are arguing against. </p><p>Lets be clear, People want spells/CAs=adept III/some masters, armour=mostly mastercraft/legendary/some fabled(maybe a couple of the better treasured even), decent AAs for level and good grasp of skills to make it worthwhile leaving town. at the moment that is barely a survivable character, which is frankly stupid. Your adept I/treasured toon of myth probably not going to score a single kill ever, even hunting in the enemies home areas.</p><p>Right now what was a twink 3 months ago is a dead noob. It has to be reined in.</p>

[Bozidar]

<cite>shaunfletcher wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Lets be clear, People want spells/CAs=adept III/some masters, armour=mostly mastercraft/legendary/some fabled(maybe a couple of the better treasured even), decent AAs for level and good grasp of skills to make it worthwhile leaving town. at the moment that is barely a survivable character, which is frankly stupid. Your adept I/treasured toon of myth probably not going to score a single kill ever, even hunting in the enemies home areas.</p></blockquote> Sorry, but the adept III/master, MC/leg/fabled/good treasured guy you describe is not "barely survivable" unless you're <i>barely</i>  a functional <a href="mailto:ret@rd" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">ret@rd</a>.

[LogainReaver]

<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>LogainReaver wrote:</cite><blockquote>       I completely sympathise and agree with the OP. And you also make a VERY valid point Gromman.I posted on the origional dev thread before i saw this one, so i will reiterate what i said there. I suggest that if they do intend to go live with the level cap, they should give us the option of COMPLETELY disabling xp so that cap can actually be achieved. That alone will acomplish any kind of balance with the cap.</blockquote><p> No, they shouldn't.  They should make it so that it's *gasp* HARD to get to the cap.  If everyone and their mother is at cap at lvl 10+, how is that going to find any balance with new players?  At least previously it was somewhat difficult to get a ton of aas, even AT the cap (let alone above).  No reason to make it easy -- at all.</p><p>Remove debt, fix the click-to-examine-when-dead free aa quests, and let folks try to achieve the cap in normal ways.</p></blockquote>         lets just agree to disagree shall we? Regardless of whether or not the allow us to completely shut off xp, obtaining the AA is going to require the exact same amount of difficulty! it will only spare you from those aggrivating quests that you work your but off to finish then realize after its too late.... NO AA   mwahahahah! There are alot of different playstiles out there, I am not saying that mine or that of my fellow lockers is better than any other. But if one chooses to lock and has the patience to do quest after quest aafter quest... they should reap the rewards.

[Bozidar]

<cite>LogainReaver wrote:</cite><blockquote>         lets just agree to disagree shall we? Regardless of whether or not the allow us to completely shut off xp, obtaining the AA is going to require the exact same amount of difficulty! it will only spare you from those aggrivating quests that you work your but off to finish then realize after its too late.... NO AA   mwahahahah! There are alot of different playstiles out there, I am not saying that mine or that of my fellow lockers is better than any other. But if one chooses to lock and has the patience to do quest after quest aafter quest... they should reap the rewards. </blockquote><p> As one of your fellow lockers, i think 1.5 aa/level is enough, and i think that it's attainable by doing exactly what you're saying -- and doing it w/o turning xp off entirely or grinding debt.</p><p>The playstyle being most affected by the AA changes is mine, and i welcome it.</p>

[LogainReaver]

I never complained about the cap really, that doesnt bother me. and i really really hate aquiring debt, i feel i shouldnt have to. it makes me feel cheep. but its the only way i have found to maintain a descent level to explore all the various content of the game while still having the feeling of acomplishment by gaining AA.

[Bozidar]

<cite>LogainReaver wrote:</cite><blockquote>I never complained about the cap really, that doesnt bother me. and i really really hate aquiring debt, i feel i shouldnt have to. it makes me feel cheep. but its the only way i have found to maintain a descent level to explore all the various content of the game while still having the feeling of acomplishment by gaining AA.</blockquote><p> without debt you will still reach the cap.  you might not do it as LOW in level as you had been, but you'll still do it.</p><p>there are probably 100+ named, easily, killable by a good group in the 20's w/o help.  LL quests, lang quests, all of them.. out the wazoo.</p><p>will you be able to complete 100% of the available quests w/o debt?  No.  But you'll be fine.</p>

[Armawk]

<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>shaunfletcher wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Lets be clear, People want spells/CAs=adept III/some masters, armour=mostly mastercraft/legendary/some fabled(maybe a couple of the better treasured even), decent AAs for level and good grasp of skills to make it worthwhile leaving town. at the moment that is barely a survivable character, which is frankly stupid. Your adept I/treasured toon of myth probably not going to score a single kill ever, even hunting in the enemies home areas.</p></blockquote> Sorry, but the adept III/master, MC/leg/fabled/good treasured guy you describe is not "barely survivable" unless you're <i>barely</i>  a functional <a href="mailto:ret@rd" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">ret@rd</a>. </blockquote><p> Maybe Im exaggerating, but against a REAL twinked out character (all masters, All fabled/pvp, nightmare, big AAs etc) someone in mostly MC/leg (nothing worse than good treasured) with adept 3s and moderate AAs is just dead, 100% of the time. In seconds. </p><p>It totally isnt about me by the way, Im happy as a pig in muck with my characters and how I find playing to be (got one gripe about big groups hanging round docks etc but thats irrelevant), its about what I see around me, and how Id love to see PVP grow to be much much bigger.</p>

[Bozidar]

<cite>shaunfletcher wrote:</cite><blockquote>Maybe Im exaggerating, but against a REAL twinked out character (all masters, All fabled/pvp, nightmare, big AAs etc) someone in mostly MC/leg (nothing worse than good treasured) with adept 3s and moderate AAs is just dead, 100% of the time. In seconds. <p>It totally isnt about me by the way, Im happy as a pig in muck with my characters and how I find playing to be (got one gripe about big groups hanging round docks etc but thats irrelevant), its about what I see around me, and how Id love to see PVP grow to be much much bigger.</p></blockquote><p>all masters all fabled/pvp, nightmare more aa... honestly, it's not an open and shut case vs the previous toon you described.</p><p>in matches like that class matters more than anything, and skill next.  The gear differential won't make the huge different you suggest compared to the twink and the super twink.  Will he have an advantage? Sure.  Is it a sure win for him?  No.</p><p>A guildie of mine on naggy has a troub on the Q side on vox.  I've killed him a few times, and my gear is better than his.  Did i kill him because of that gear?  No, it's because my toon is a brigand and usually gets him when he's engaged with a mob <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>You can attain a good level of twinkdom w/o being over the top.. and you can be very competative.</p><p>When folks realize that scouts can solo the easiest, and that they should just form a good group before they go out to pvp, the game will get better.  So many whiners about how they can't solo their clothy or their tank. Get over it, /invite, and balance your gaming experience.  That's what's going to make pvp grow. </p>

[Armawk]

Id call it class=gear>>>>skill tbh which is a bit sad. I lack the aformentioned skill but my fav class (templar) and gear means I get to play a long time before I die. I do however die <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Image_Vain]

<cite>shaunfletcher wrote:</cite><blockquote>Id call it class=gear>>>>skill tbh which is a bit sad. I lack the aformentioned skill but my fav class (templar) and gear means I get to play a long time before I die. I do however die <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote> Gear-Skill-Class Every class can own, it's the player that makes it the pwner.

[Ozgood]

<cite>Image_Vain wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>shaunfletcher wrote:</cite><blockquote>Id call it class=gear>>>>skill tbh which is a bit sad. I lack the aformentioned skill but my fav class (templar) and gear means I get to play a long time before I die. I do however die <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote> Gear-Skill-Class Every class can own, it's the player that makes it the pwner. </blockquote><p> Class-Gear-Skill is the current format.  How many Coercer, Defiler, Paladin, Illusionist, <insert pet class here>, do you see with the title of General?  Just a coincidence that all these "classes" have not the gear or the talent to pwn?  Hmm, perhaps.</p><p>Now it will be:</p><p>Skill-gear-class:  The exact opposite and the good PvP'ers will still be good and pwn.  And now the good Paladins will have a chance to Pwn.</p><p>Love the AA level cap, although it is not that bad at 1.5 per.  Matter of fact, without exp debt, which was an exploit, you will be hard pressed to get 1.5 aas per level at lower levels anyways, without leveling.</p><p>Get over it and try it out first!</p>

[LogainReaver]

Ozgood@Vox wrote: <blockquote><p>Love the AA level cap, although it is not that bad at 1.5 per.  Matter of fact, without exp debt, which was an exploit, you will be hard pressed to get 1.5 aas per level at lower levels anyways, without leveling.</p><p>Get over it and try it out first!</p></blockquote>   See, here is the problem as i see it. all those who are rejoycing over the removal of xp debt so people cant max thier AA are just an other example of people unwilling to make sacrifices crying nerf to bring others to there own level. Those people who are willing to sit there and rack up debt so they can go quest eternally and spend massive amounts of time and effort doing so and still feel rewarded by gaining AA are not the problem. its those people who dont want to take the time to gain AA complaining when they get killed by a green con who has taken the time and effort to raise thier AA and improve there character.

[natasha]

<p>I am a level locker as well, I think the point they are trying to make is that taking debt xp away from the PvP servers will not enable you to gain as many aa points anymore. Which, essentially, will take the fun away from locking in those lower tiers, and take the added challenge and competition of taking on those hardcore players who are also level locked.</p><p> Even if the AA exp is changed to 1.5 times your adventure level, you will level 50% faster without debt xp, which means...ALOT less points!!</p><p>Do the math...it's gonna hurt. I play PvP because I enjoy the hardcore level lockers...they are the serious players who are patient enough to do lots of quests and gear themselves up. With this change, level locking in tiers 2-3 will no longer be as fun without those extra spells and abilities to try out from the AA lines. It does seem unfair to take this playstyle away from level lockers because a few bad apples are out farming lower levels.</p><p>I won't quit eq2, but I may decide to leave the PvP servers if my level lockers will only be able to gain say 2 points a level instead of 4 or 5. It will make a big difference!</p>

[Armawk]

<cite>LogainReaver wrote:</cite><blockquote>all those who are rejoycing over the removal of xp debt so people cant max thier AA are just an other example of people unwilling to make sacrifices crying nerf to bring others to there own level. </blockquote>Exploiting debt for any reason is not "making a sacrifice" its a classic exploit plain and simple, using an intended punishment as a way to gain something. No way a dev was not going to close that loophole sooner or later. Seriously be happy you got away with it as long as you did.

[Ozgood]

<cite>LogainReaver wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ozgood@Vox wrote: <blockquote><p>Love the AA level cap, although it is not that bad at 1.5 per.  Matter of fact, without exp debt, which was an exploit, you will be hard pressed to get 1.5 aas per level at lower levels anyways, without leveling.</p><p>Get over it and try it out first!</p></blockquote>   See, here is the problem as i see it. all those who are rejoycing over the removal of xp debt so people cant max thier AA are just an other example of people unwilling to make sacrifices crying nerf to bring others to there own level. Those people who are willing to sit there and rack up debt so they can go quest eternally and spend massive amounts of time and effort doing so and still feel rewarded by gaining AA are not the problem. its those people who dont want to take the time to gain AA complaining when they get killed by a green con who has taken the time and effort to raise thier AA and improve there character.</blockquote><p>Don't disagree that you took a lot of effort to do it.  I never did it personally, not because I was lazy or didn't have the talent, but moreso because I guarantee you that the devs did not design /exp off with that in mind.  It is, in some senses an exploit.</p><p>Now before you freak out, I roll with people all the time who did/do it.  I just didn't do it personally.  I like the change because you can still /exp off, still be uber, still lock and still have quite a few AAs (more than me).  But what it will do, is make people actually roll to dormat tiers in the game.</p><p>Think about it, no exp debt means you would level anyways before you can accumulate that much.  People who had them before and are locked at 15-17 will still have more AAs than most players who just start fresh.  I turned off my exp at level 10 and got 1.5 AA's and dinged without exp debt.  You do the math, you will still have an advantage and deservedly so. </p>

[Nyven]

<p>I still think that if they are really trying to restrict having obscene amounts of AA at the low end, the level * 1.5 deal is not the best way to do this.  The cap will barely affect anyone lower level except those who are completely obsessive... a 14 locker can still have 21 AA, thats an awful lot that I think almost everyone will not reach.  Looking at the other side of things, you will not be able to max your AA until level 67.  Seems it more negatively impacts the higher end then the lower.</p><p>In my opinion if they are going to do this they should go with <b>(Level - 9) * 2</b>... which basically equates to 2 AA a level starting at 10.  The cap will be more effective in what they are attempting at those first levels than before, and you can actually max AA at a lower level than with the other formula, level 59 to be exact.</p><p>Honestly I don't really care either way if they put a cap in or not, I just don't think their current proposed idea would be the most effective.</p>

[Bloodfa]

<p>So .... everybody goes up in levels and is forced to compete on a more balanced battlefield <i>away</i> from the newb zones.  On both sides.  All three sides, actually.  Twinks will eventually have to upgrade to the next tier.  If they're not running around doing quests and grinding monsters/dungeons, it should take quite a while to level up to the next tier.  I'm still failing to see how this could be a game-breaker.</p><p>For those that claim they "only lock so I can run with my friends, because they can't play as often", why not roll an alt for when they're not around?  Add them to your buddy list and <poof> there's a notification when they log in.</p>

[LogainReaver]

        I have to abashedly admit that, yes, it did seem like somthing of an exploit to me as well. I always felt quilty doing it. I even asked the guild leader of my old guild (who introduced me to debting) if it was considered an exploit. I have never seen any official stance by soe stating that it was though. Anyway, my main reason for using it was because it opened up the doors to so much more content, and also allowed me to compete with the other hardcore lockers that where  using the same "exploit". Lets admit, having a higher rate of AA allows you to survive alot more content then you would be able to otherwise, while soloing at least. which i do alot. Im not a title hugger, and honestly dont go on PvP campains often. usually, i just enjoy the excitement of knowing that a battle could crop up around any corner, and PvP on the fly while doing quests/harvesting etc. And i like being able to survive those occasional encounters. I see, from one perspective where those tier 2 lockers who strive for AA and gank newbs for faction/titles are a problem. i just feel that players like myself are suffering for that. thats why i suggested allowing complete disableing of xp. with the cap, people will eventually have to level, so whats the problem. I think they should just move the minimum pvp level to 18 or so. anyway, thats my take on it.

[Ozgood]

<p>Again, maybe people should sticky this for reference:</p><p>You don't start getting AA's until level 10 right?  Ok, lets move on.</p><p>Last night, I personally took my Inq with /exp off and began doing quests.  I got 1.39 AA's and I dinged.  So on a hypothetical graduated scale, I would get 1.71 AA's till I ding 12.  Till 13 I would get 2 AAs.  Til 14 I would get 2.5 AAs.  To get to 15, I could get 3 AA's.  And finally to 16, which seems to be level lock heaven I could get 3.5 AAs.</p><p>So, new system, I will get with an ALT, like most of you who are altaholics, basically (on the high end) I would have <span style="font-size: xx-large">14 AAs</span>.</p><p>You current AA horders will get 1.5 AAs per level or <span style="font-size: xx-large">24 AAs</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small">Do you undertsand that you will still have a massive advantage and if you gain no more AA's you can remain locked forever?</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small">What the heck are you worried about here?</span></p>

[LogainReaver]

           What we are worried about is that in order to get that many AA's you have to do a massive amount of questing. you will level much faster than you can hit the AA cap, except of course those people in the uber guilds that can run around with groups that far outlevel them and get AAs for named the didnt even put a scratch on... so, those people will still have the uber AA and be pwning face while the majority of the players will not. problem of newbs getting ganked?  not solved.

[Bozidar]

<cite>LogainReaver wrote:</cite><blockquote>           What we are worried about is that in order to get that many AA's you have to do a massive amount of questing. you will level much faster than you can hit the AA cap, except of course those people in the uber guilds that can run around with groups that far outlevel them and get AAs for named the didnt even put a scratch on... so, those people will still have the uber AA and be pwning face while the majority of the players will not. problem of newbs getting ganked?  not solved.</blockquote><p> And i tell you again.  You can't reach the aa cap at lvl 10, you probably can't do it at 11.  The only thing this is going to change is how hard it is to reach that cap.  It's going to be REALLY hard to do it at lvl 14, or 15, or even maybe at 20th.</p><p>But when you hit the middle levels it's not going to be difficult, and just questing with xp turned off will get you to that cap.</p><p>So let's review.. lower level it will be much harder to reach the cap.  Middle and high levels will be easier, but you can't get an abusive amount of aas at a middle level and kill everything insight.</p><p>Sounds like the "taking some of the power away from level lockers" mission is a success with this change.</p><p>Love,</p><p>Level Locking Bozidar</p>

[LogainReaver]

<p>             I just realized i may have missed your point. yes, those who already have the AA will be okay,  but what about the newbs? the will be sucking even more because they dont  have a chance of being able to compete with those that are already capped once the update hits! see what im saying? its a loose loose situation! the only people being really hurt are the ones (and my perception on this may be wrong) that SOE is trying to help,  the newbs. It could also be that SOE is simply trying to force people into the other tiers, which, is silly. It is inevitable anyway, people are eventually going to get tired of a tier and move on, its just a matter of patience on soe's part. </p>

[Bozidar]

<cite>LogainReaver wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>             I just realized i may have missed your point. yes, those who already have the AA will be okay,  but what about the newbs? the will be sucking even more because they dont  have a chance of being able to compete with those that are already capped once the update hits! see what im saying? its a loose loose situation! the only people being really hurt are the ones (and my perception on this may be wrong) that SOE is trying to help,  the newbs. It could also be that SOE is simply trying to force people into the other tiers, which, is silly. It is inevitable anyway, people are eventually going to get tired of a tier and move on, its just a matter of patience on soe's part. </p></blockquote> newbs don't level lock, it's not their concern.  They're going to get a moderate amount of AA from their normal leveling, as always.  They'll be sucking LESS because the disparity between them and the folks today will be smaller.  The NEWBS won't approach cap for a long time.. so this ain't about them.  They're taking zero away from those guys.

[LogainReaver]

          /sigh    I give up. I keep waiting for you to have a revelation and say   omg... your right!! <img src="/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />   but it looks like that just wont happen. I can tell by your sig that your one of those who believe that this is a group gratifying game only, and that solo'ers should suffer justly. I can certainly see your points though. but, if a newb simply wants to level, and not lock to maximize pvp ability, then why be on a pvp server? The key is haveing good, open armed guilds that will take in and tutor newbs on the mechanics of the game. It is just frustrating that SOE is forcing me to level. sure, i could stay at level 28 forever, but what would i have to work for? the ability to lock and still have a sence of acomplishment by gaining AA is freedom to me. im sure there are those who share my sentiments, and those who share yours. I guess its just up to SOE to figure it all out. Im just concerned because the game play i have experinced over the last few months since i started locking/debting is at a level i never knew it could be. And i just dont want it broken. that is all.

[Bozidar]

<cite>LogainReaver wrote:</cite><blockquote>          /sigh    I give up. I keep waiting for you to have a revelation and say   omg... your right!! <img src="/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />   but it looks like that just wont happen. I can tell by your sig that your one of those who believe that this is a group gratifying game only, and that solo'ers should suffer justly. I can certainly see your points though. but, if a newb simply wants to level, and not lock to maximize pvp ability, then why be on a pvp server? The key is haveing good, open armed guilds that will take in and tutor newbs on the mechanics of the game. It is just frustrating that SOE is forcing me to level. sure, i could stay at level 28 forever, but what would i have to work for? the ability to lock and still have a sence of acomplishment by gaining AA is freedom to me. im sure there are those who share my sentiments, and those who share yours. I guess its just up to SOE to figure it all out. Im just concerned because the game play i have experinced over the last few months since i started locking/debting is at a level i never knew it could be. And i just dont want it broken. that is all.</blockquote><p>Have you EVER seen a newb lock?  Ever?  Stop pretending this is about newbs, it's not.  It's about folks rolling a new alt and having to try HARDER to reach the cap.  Woe is them... <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>No one's forcing you to level.  You don't want xp, stop questing.  Problem solved.  You want to get more of a sense of accomplishment after you're close to your next level?  Then level up.  If you don't want to level, then you should focus on pvp accomplishments.</p><p>The game won't be broken for you, it's just not going to be as easy.  And that's ok.. because locking levels and high aa was a little too easy before. </p>

[LogainReaver]

               I think the problem we are having here is that you have assumed that all i want to do is cry about how hard it is going to be for me to get AA. All 7 of my toons , who are on VOX already have over 20 AA, so im not overly concearned about the effect this will have on me. k? secondly, if you really read my post instead of just scaned and decided to flame on, you would see that the sence of acomplishment i was refering to while locked IS gaining AA. the problem is your not being objective about what im saying. youve simply made up your mind that your right and im wrong and thats that. The fact that no one else is putting in there two cents is a little discouraging though. I have been folowing several different threads in regards to this that have some very good suggestions in them. one suggested disallowing locking until lvl 20... good idea, another raising the PvP level from 10 to oh say 16 or so.... good idea, my favorited: allow complete disabling of xp....good idea, people will eventually hit the cap and unlock. its not making anything wasy, because you still have to do the quests, still have to do the named camping, still have to find the collections. idea: lower the xp quests give.. good idea,   raise the amount of AA% given by quests/mobs... descent idea,  but i think thats too much of an easy button.  lots of good ideas out there. but simply saying "your gonna have to level if you want to get to the next skill in your aa line" that sucks. they have made alot of the skills scale to level.. good idea. anyway...  thats just my opinion, im not saying your wrong,  i just dont agree with you.

[Solitude]

Can we just remove AA from the PvP servers that will solve everything.

[Bozidar]

Airbornedeath@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Can we just remove AA from the PvP servers that will solve everything.</blockquote> If we remove whining from the pvp forums, i'm afraid you won't be able to post <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Ozgood]

<cite>LogainReaver wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>             I just realized i may have missed your point. yes, those who already have the AA will be okay,  but what about the newbs? the will be sucking even more because they dont  have a chance of being able to compete with those that are already capped once the update hits! see what im saying? its a loose loose situation! the only people being really hurt are the ones (and my perception on this may be wrong) that SOE is trying to help,  the newbs. It could also be that SOE is simply trying to force people into the other tiers, which, is silly. It is inevitable anyway, people are eventually going to get tired of a tier and move on, its just a matter of patience on soe's part. </p></blockquote><p>Yes, you may have missed my point, no worries.  I think that those who put in the time, should have an advantage.  I am all for that.  But as Bozidar said, it will narrow the chasm, fill up the other tiers, stop people on the docks from dying over and over again.</p><p>Also, people are still not understanding that you can still level lock at 16 with 24 AA's and nothing will ever make you level, unless you get more AA.  So what are we really talking about here?? </p>

[LogainReaver]

hell no!  without AA they might as well just give you one option on the character creation screen. if you want everyone to be on the exact same playing field then go play doom online or somthing and all your evenly skilled green blue and red guys can go scramble for the biggest weapon. AA is the only thing keeping me in this game, its the only thing gives 2 people of the same class the option to be totally different if they choose too.

[HerbertWalker]

<p>I would think that by level 30 we can take off the training wheels and find out which players are dedicated and which players do not prepare their character properly for PvP.  Preparing your character for PvP constitutes 90% of the skill of this game.</p><p>No AA caps starting at 30.  Let us distinguish ourselves from the masses a little more, instead of capping us all off way before the over-achiever will hit his max.</p><p>I agree that AA's can be too easy to achieve, and I also agree that they make your character over powered.   But those two statements together do not translate into a reasonable argument for capping off AA's.</p><p>And jeez, why should we all just cap out so early?</p><p>T2 seems not fixable without nerfing the gear.  The gear difference is what will drive new players away, same as today.</p><p>By T4 people should be totally accepting of the fact that there might be some ubered out characters wandering the lands.</p><p>I'd rather not be capped out and the same as every other wizard.   That's way shallow compared to the near infinite growth capabilities you give my wizard in today's game.</p>

[xenocide85]

Ok, thank you all for responding, some good points were made and I will do my best to address/counter them.  First of all, I did not address the issue of the removal of exp debt, and likewise I think this, just as the AA cap per level, is a bad idea.  I don't understand why the developers of this game are so against the concept of twinks and level lockers.  But the reason I am against debt removal is the same I am against the AA cap, and they go hand in hand, because you are almost completely right that with the removal of debt, you can't acrue of a lot of AA at a low level UNLESS you have some high level guild babysit you through killing every named mob from level 10 to 60. Treasured/App1 Noobs & MC/Adept III Twinks I had a locked toon at 27 pre EoF who pursued what my locked toon post EoF did.  I had a 27 SK and tried to get as many AA as I could.  Eventually he was level 43 with 21 AA and once EoF came out, he got up to 41 AA at lvl 45.  He solo pvp'd in Stormhold, he farmed mobs constantly, and in the end, he was completely fabled out.  He wasn't a god, but he was very strong.  However, I am certain that some classes with only MC/Adept III gear could have beaten him... most certainly some healers and casters, especially if they con'd orange.  But in response to whoever blasted me about not reading the actualy criticisms, I have.  There are plenty of people all over the PvP boards who make completely ridiculous posts that consist of exactly what I depicted - teasured out, app1 or adept 1 characters complaining about twinks.  It's not all of the criticism, I know, but it is part and so I addressed it. Why 1.5x Is Not Enough I understand that one of you had only known about a lvl 30 w/ 37 AA.  I have a level 23 shadowknight with 45 AA.  I know of a 26 shadowknight with 55, a level 26 warden with 50, and at one point there was a fae warden that had something like 68 at level 27.  The reason 1.5 is not enough is because the entire appeal of pursuing AA is exactly that of being in a raid guild.  You have to work long and hard, usually with friends, to get those AA.  People have been working at this, like myslef, for months.  I began making my toon in november of 2006 and he still only has 45 AA.  However it's not a complicated process to figure out.  The appeal of getting the AA is being able to maximize the potential of your character without having to level to 70.  There are plenty of players, like myself, who don't like T7 play and don't want to level to there.  I personally would prefer a pvp server that stopped the way EQ2 originally was released, at a level 50 cap fighting the T5 raid mobs - the items are cooler, and the game has a lot more thought put into it at those tiers.  Anyways my point it this, AA only adds one more dimension, just like having all Masters, or all fabled does.  It's like adding tiers to twinks... Tier 1 might be all Master abilities, Tier 2 all fabled and masterd, Tier 3 all fabled, masters, and lots of AA.  This is no more of an unfair advantage than any other time based character development in this game.  In fact, T5 twinks at level 40-45 get items that only 55x4 mobs drop, mobs which con red and they couldn't kill on those characters even if they had an x4 of twinks...  and those items have some of the best pvp procs in the game... almost every peice has some kind of stun/stifle/fear proc, some of which are group enoucter, or AoE throwback, and yet no one is complaining about locked characters having those and the develoeprs aren't trying to fix it - and they shouldn't.  It's completely hypocritcical to agrue that the realization of one more element which is exactly like all the others is unfair.  Do you know how rare the fabled items are at lvls 20-35?  Aside from the drops of the named that repop every 5 minutes, they are really REALLY rare and to have someone completely decked out in items which are likely to be server discoveries or not far from it reflects a completely similar investment of time.  Aside from all this, very few twinks with that many AA could still take on 2 very strong classes in MC/adept III.  Especially not a healer/something else.  My SK that is 23 w/ 45 AA has mostly treasured gear with a fabled chest peice and a legendary weapon, he has half master 1's and half app 1's and while I can sometimes kill orange cons because of Harm Touch, I lose plenty of fights... I'm not nearly some sort of demi-god yet and at this point, all fabled items make a much bigger impact than more AA.  I think everyone is whining over nothing and blowing this out of proportion.  It's completely unfair to the players who have invested hundreds of hours into developing these characters with a goal in mind for SoE to, 8 months later, arbitrarly decide that they are going to ruin their plans and strategies.  My ultimate goal was to have a SK at level 35 with 100 AA, which is possible, and slowly gear him out.   I wanted to test various AA lines and item arrangements and find out what strategies make him stronger in what ways.  If they go through with these changes, I will prolly quit and never come back, as will plenty of other dedicated players who just had 6 months of their time wasted will most likely do the same.  It's one thing to balance a class for being overpowered, it's a completely differnet thing to across the boad, drastically cut an element of the game which anyone can utilize and which adds a hugely more complex and interesting element into pvp. Catastrophe/Youresodead

[Echgar]

There is already <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=365950" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">a thread discussing the changes planned for GU 36</a>.  Rather than start a new thread, please use the <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=365950" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">existing thread</a> to give your feedback.