To Make SK's More Raid Viable.

[Druisagoldengod]

I was trying to think of a way to make SK's more raid viable.  We are very good at some things during a raid such as snap agro with Death March, FDing an overzealous Wizard, off tanking, T2 dps and so on. However, all those things are not entirely needed and most raiding guilds just don't use an SK in favor of a brigand.  Heck even Pallies at top end are great MT's as long as they use amends correctly.  Here are some ideas (keep in mind being a jack of all trades and master of none and that I feel we only need one thing to make us more raid viable): A longer recast CoH Lesser amount than Troubs Power Regen of some type - this would fit in nicely for DPS SK's being in the mage group Something crazy such as with the more corpses on the ground the more damage we do - including friendly corpses Something like a heart and a shard only for health - ours could be dmg to mob and less health, pally could be straight health My favorite idea though...   mini Manaburn.  Our Wizard does about 90k on his, so I figure a 40k or 50k manaburn on the same recast timer would do nicely.  That would push our dps much higher as well putting us in T1 to compete with the brigs and shashies.  For the tanking aspect of it, blow your mana burn on a mob that gets away or at the start of a named fight, eat hearts and shards then get mana flowed and bam, you have enough power to continue tanking.  I mean shoot, we are part mage yes? Oh but wait... then the pallies would start to whine.  Well, how about balance it with giving them a Lifeburn.  Half the damage I suppose just like the mini manaburn.  Whats more, they can have heals on themselves to increase the damage. So what do yall think?  If its a good idea hopefully the devs are watching =)

[Luxun]

<i>All I need to out tank zerkers is to take away interrupts fro mmy spells. Make my spells not resistable by mobs ..atleast the taunts.  Thats all we really need,...</i>

[Neiloch]

Yeah the interrupt while tanking is a real pain. They should make it so the defense stance has a lot more focus or something so you won't get interrupted as easily. the Hate line in the EoF tree seems like a must if you plan on tanking. Probably going to put most of my extra points in EoF into hate as well.

[AziBam]

<cite>Neiloch wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yeah the interrupt while tanking is a real pain. <b><span style="font-size: x-small">They should make it so the defense stance has a lot more focus</span></b> or something so you won't get interrupted as easily. the Hate line in the EoF tree seems like a must if you plan on tanking. Probably going to put most of my extra points in EoF into hate as well. </blockquote>^^ That's a great idea.  Also, perhaps a castable buff that would increase focus and ordination (despoil anyone?).  Recast similar to DM.  Duration 30 seconds to a minute.  (Or in EQ2 times 36 seconds to 1min12 sec)  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Pre-pull, cast <insert spell name here> which boosts your focus and ordination by 30-40ish.  Make your pull,  buff is running giving you time to get taunts off along with despoil plus several good spell attacks to build aggro.  A suggestion I made a while back was that Everlasting Hunger be made to proc off both melee and hostile spells.  It wouldn't be earth shattering in terms of balance but spell procs are harder to come by than boosts to melee damage. This would make us a desireable addition with casters.   Anytime you have a class that can increase the group dps there is a good reason to find a spot for them.  For tanking (raids) I think our hate/aggro is fine.  Any tank out there must have some hate boost/transfer to keep a raid force in control.  The area we seem to lack is the ability to take the big hits.  Our taps just don't keep up.  Despoil is great...when it lands.  I'm not our normal MT but through some plan changes I pulled the drake last night in DT with it.  Not surprisingly, it resisted.  No mit boost for me for opening of the fight.  I can just try again after I've cycled taunts and hope that it lands.  Another topic that has been discussed before (with many voices on both sides) is that the WIS boost we have with DEF stance does not give us the same benefit of the +parry that warriors have in my opinion.  Wis is decent for resists but most fights you tailor your gear to the correct resists already anyway.  This means that the WIS boost is just not as valuable as increasing  the number of physical attacks that can be avoided completely via parry.

[Druisagoldengod]

Well, I am of the opinion that SK's should NOT be MTing end game raids.  They can sure, but a guard can better period.  One way of attacking this is to say make us more tank viable.  While this is sure to be a valid argument, I was thinking of making our dps T1 to make us more raid viable.  When I am raid MTing I never have issues, so I cannot really relate to the things you are mentioning.  However, now that I think about it... boosting 1 toons dps to T1 (the SK) compaired to boosting the entire raids dps by a second dispatch still doesn't cut the mustard does it... hmmm. I still like the idea of a mini manaburn. =)

[AziBam]

Yeah, I just don't see us getting any huge boost to dps really.  Tweaks to dps yes but not a major upswing as we would be pretty imbalanced then.  I really don't think any fighter should be on par for damage with a true dps class.  Several of the fighter classes dish it out pretty well but that would be crazy dps and would scream nerf.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I just can't envision us getting anything like manaburn.  Which is why I suggested the group buff proc.  Trying to find something that is of raid benefit but not imbalancing for the class.  /shrug.  p.s.  Don't get me wrong, what you are saying would rock!  I just don't think it would happen.  I would also love stoneskin like a guard has but just the same I don't think it will happen either.  I also agree that overall a guard has a bigger bag of tools for being MT.  I'm just looking at the whole raid picture, both dps and tanking and suggested what I thought might be of benefit to our class in both roles that we might fit into. 

[Luxun]

<p>We will never be the kind of tanks guardians are. I can live with that, however hwy is that a zerker can out-tank while they are much liek the SK class are suppose to be dps/tanks ? </p><p>Simple answer ..resists and interrupt issues. They don't get interrupted, they don't have to deal with spell resists, which is why they can tank better than us and build aggro better. </p><p>Only tweak the SK class needs is to make us not be interruptable ..atleast in pve only.  Everything else we have the means of being a great MT for high end raids much liek zerkers are.  </p>

[Druisagoldengod]

Hmm.  Great points.  Fighters shouldn't out dps scouts.  And that is what would happen if they gave us even a mini manaburn.  The non interrupts would be great for tanking, but you hit it on the money by saying that its their disease check that mitigates most of our damage, so uping our dps that way would be minimal unless in the MT position. So to better illustrate the issue, here is my dilemma.  With only 24 slots on a raid class balance is a must.  So when looking at what classes bring to the table it is obvious that if you have to choose be tween a second Brigand, or dirge for that matter, this would better the raid much more than what we bring.  So, my guild just picked up our second brig... so though I put out 1500ish dps guess who is first on the chopping block?  Thats right, our lovable SK... me.  Looking at helping the raid as  a whole, increasing our dps alone wont cut it as Azi said.  There goes my theory heh.  Could the Everlasting Hunger proc be that beneficial to the casters?  Thinking back to another one of my ideas about a power regen... G4 is never out of power as long as our Troub is there.  Dang... this is tougher than I had thought!

[Luxun]

Amondus@Permafrost wrote: <blockquote>Hmm.  Great points.  Fighters shouldn't out dps scouts.  And that is what would happen if they gave us even a mini manaburn.  The non interrupts would be great for tanking, but you hit it on the money by saying that its their disease check that mitigates most of our damage, so uping our dps that way would be minimal unless in the MT position. So to better illustrate the issue, here is my dilemma.  With only 24 slots on a raid class balance is a must.  So when looking at what classes bring to the table it is obvious that if you have to choose be tween a second Brigand, or dirge for that matter, this would better the raid much more than what we bring.  So, my guild just picked up our second brig... so though I put out 1500ish dps guess who is first on the chopping block?  Thats right, our lovable SK... me.  Looking at helping the raid as  a whole, increasing our dps alone wont cut it as Azi said.  There goes my theory heh.  Could the Everlasting Hunger proc be that beneficial to the casters?  Thinking back to another one of my ideas about a power regen... G4 is never out of power as long as our Troub is there.  Dang... this is tougher than I had thought! </blockquote><p> You are absolutely correct. Even though SKs have some nice toys to bring to a raid, their package is never good enough to replace a extra dirge or a extra dps class. </p><p>In all honesty from the way I see it the fighter classes are suppose to be tanks. So are the brawlers. Problem is the classes aren't balanced enugh so that all the tanks can actually tank on raids. People can't say "well a SK is for instance tanking and zerker/guardian for raid tanking" thats just crap, EQ2 requires you to raid in order to get better gear. If your class doesn't have a solid spot on a raid, then you are useless in t7. Simpel as that. </p><p>SKs can tank, I do very decent with my SK, but the reason we arenot known to be a ealible tank is because of our interrupts. DEVs seriously need to look into the SK interrupt issue. If they make a solution for that, and make our taunts unresistable like zerkers, then SKs will be able to tank. </p><p>We shouldn't wish for this, we are entitled to get this, because we ARE a tank class. Only if the DEVs would stop trying to fix somehting that is not broke (look athte pvp changes ...most of is going to make more problems than solve any) and they would actually look into the classes that truely need fixes, we would get some love. However for now we have to deal with being handicapped even more with the PT nerf .....Paladins are now 100% better than we are. </p>

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

<blockquote><p>SKs can tank, I do very decent with my SK, but the reason we arenot known to be a ealible tank is because of our interrupts. DEVs seriously need to look into the SK interrupt issue. If they make a solution for that, and make our taunts unresistable like zerkers, then SKs will be able to tank. </p></blockquote> SKs tank very well. Interrupts don't cause any big issues.

[Luxun]

CHIMPNOODLE. wrote: <blockquote><blockquote><p>SKs can tank, I do very decent with my SK, but the reason we arenot known to be a ealible tank is because of our interrupts. DEVs seriously need to look into the SK interrupt issue. If they make a solution for that, and make our taunts unresistable like zerkers, then SKs will be able to tank. </p></blockquote> SKs tank very well. Interrupts don't cause any big issues.</blockquote><i>are you kidding me ??? have you tried being the MT on a x4 raid ? You have got to be joking if yo usay interrupts don't bother us. It is becuse of interrupts that we can't dps fast enough and thus build aggro fast enoug hto keep up, it is exactly why zerker are the better dps/tank than SKs are. </i>

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

<cite>Luxun wrote:</cite><blockquote>CHIMPNOODLE. wrote: <blockquote><blockquote><p>SKs can tank, I do very decent with my SK, but the reason we arenot known to be a ealible tank is because of our interrupts. DEVs seriously need to look into the SK interrupt issue. If they make a solution for that, and make our taunts unresistable like zerkers, then SKs will be able to tank. </p></blockquote> SKs tank very well. Interrupts don't cause any big issues.</blockquote><i>are you kidding me ??? have you tried being the MT on a x4 raid ? You have got to be joking if yo usay interrupts don't bother us. It is becuse of interrupts that we can't dps fast enough and thus build aggro fast enoug hto keep up, it is exactly why zerker are the better dps/tank than SKs are. </i> </blockquote><p>That's pretty much all I do with my SK <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>You're information is innacurate. </p>

[Dead Knight]

CHIMPNOODLE. wrote: <blockquote><cite>Luxun wrote:</cite><blockquote>CHIMPNOODLE. wrote: <blockquote><blockquote><p>SKs can tank, I do very decent with my SK, but the reason we arenot known to be a ealible tank is because of our interrupts. DEVs seriously need to look into the SK interrupt issue. If they make a solution for that, and make our taunts unresistable like zerkers, then SKs will be able to tank. </p></blockquote> SKs tank very well. Interrupts don't cause any big issues.</blockquote><i>are you kidding me ??? have you tried being the MT on a x4 raid ? You have got to be joking if yo usay interrupts don't bother us. It is becuse of interrupts that we can't dps fast enough and thus build aggro fast enoug hto keep up, it is exactly why zerker are the better dps/tank than SKs are. </i> </blockquote><p>That's pretty much all I do with my SK <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>You're information is innacurate. </p></blockquote>QFE

[holypaladin28]

Dead Knight wrote: <blockquote>CHIMPNOODLE. wrote: <blockquote><cite>Luxun wrote:</cite><blockquote>CHIMPNOODLE. wrote: <blockquote><blockquote><p>SKs can tank, I do very decent with my SK, but the reason we arenot known to be a ealible tank is because of our interrupts. DEVs seriously need to look into the SK interrupt issue. If they make a solution for that, and make our taunts unresistable like zerkers, then SKs will be able to tank. </p></blockquote> SKs tank very well. Interrupts don't cause any big issues.</blockquote><i>are you kidding me ??? have you tried being the MT on a x4 raid ? You have got to be joking if yo usay interrupts don't bother us. It is becuse of interrupts that we can't dps fast enough and thus build aggro fast enoug hto keep up, it is exactly why zerker are the better dps/tank than SKs are. </i> </blockquote><p>That's pretty much all I do with my SK <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>You're information is innacurate. </p></blockquote>QFE </blockquote><p>excuse luxun he has never done a t7 raid and only knowledge he has is T6</p><p>SK's can tank fine  the str line with the hate increaser and the cast timer 10 percent bonus is really good.  its a mastter of calling assits and not having an over zelous wizzy fusion on pull.  i have easily tanked labs dt lycum first two names in freethinkers (tanked the third but reachingrot kills stupid people) i hvae also tanked most of mmc 2x epics and those guys are no joke with close to 2 million hp on some of them for a 2x.  also tanked first 2 names in mmcis. never a problem in fact i think we have an advantage the self heals off every attack helps a little with reaver line.  </p><p>[Removed for Content] i respeced my AA for max str and sta and even after losing the crit for spell damage i doing more dps then i was before.  the haste is good for when we wait for ca's to pop back up also </p>

[Ikuri]

Kalgore@Vox wrote: <blockquote>Dead Knight wrote: <blockquote>CHIMPNOODLE. wrote: <blockquote><cite>Luxun wrote:</cite><blockquote>CHIMPNOODLE. wrote: <blockquote><blockquote><p>SKs can tank, I do very decent with my SK, but the reason we arenot known to be a ealible tank is because of our interrupts. DEVs seriously need to look into the SK interrupt issue. If they make a solution for that, and make our taunts unresistable like zerkers, then SKs will be able to tank. </p></blockquote> SKs tank very well. Interrupts don't cause any big issues.</blockquote><i>are you kidding me ??? have you tried being the MT on a x4 raid ? You have got to be joking if yo usay interrupts don't bother us. It is becuse of interrupts that we can't dps fast enough and thus build aggro fast enoug hto keep up, it is exactly why zerker are the better dps/tank than SKs are. </i> </blockquote><p>That's pretty much all I do with my SK <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>You're information is innacurate. </p></blockquote>QFE </blockquote><p>excuse luxun he has never done a t7 raid and only knowledge he has is T6</p><p>SK's can tank fine  the str line with the hate increaser and the cast timer 10 percent bonus is really good.  its a mastter of calling assits and not having an over zelous wizzy fusion on pull.  i have easily tanked labs dt lycum first two names in freethinkers (tanked the third but reachingrot kills stupid people) i hvae also tanked most of mmc 2x epics and those guys are no joke with close to 2 million hp on some of them for a 2x.  also tanked first 2 names in mmcis. never a problem in fact i think we have an advantage the self heals off every attack helps a little with reaver line.  </p><p>[I cannot control my vocabulary] i respeced my AA for max str and sta and even after losing the crit for spell damage i doing more dps then i was before.  the haste is good for when we wait for ca's to pop back up also </p></blockquote><p>Kalgore do you have to go every where trying to bash me to make peopel think you are actually a SK ? For peope ltyat don't know, this joke used to be a Paladin who led a guild on Vox to try to drop my master title on my main, ended up hading me a master title on my alt and got me to 4 kills away from overseer before he finalyl gave up surrendered to freeport ...So his feelings are a little hurt. </p><p>Also Kalgore have you successfully tanked Freethinkers onyour SK ? Have you even MT any of the T7 zones successfully ? i didn't think so so shut-the-F-up. </p><p>You come here talking about the SK class is like a [Removed for Content] kid from spcial olympics giving advice to David Beckham. Just the shut the F up and go back to your hole clown. </p>

[Luxun]

<p>Hey Kalgore atleast I have successfully tanked most of the T7 zones and got a Overseer pvp title. Shouldn't you be busy cybering hollyhood (better known as hollywhore) on EFP docks insted of being here trying to make yourself look like a SK ? </p><p>Why don't go back to Qeynos and run a guild again ..i wanna get Overseer on my brigand too. </p>

[holypaladin28]

<cite>Luxun wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Hey Kalgore atleast I have successfully tanked most of the T7 zones and got a Overseer pvp title. Shouldn't you be busy cybering hollyhood (better known as hollywhore) on EFP docks insted of being here trying to make yourself look like a SK ? </p><p>Why don't go back to Qeynos and run a guild again ..i wanna get Overseer on my brigand too. </p></blockquote><p> hahah  tell everyone about your title again and not even in pvp discussion.</p><p>you should tell them how you got banned and that title on station players went from over seer to master and how your gear got stripped for farming if you are going to tell people about your title</p><p>you have tanked zero raid zones as i knew what your guild was doing i have tanked them and killed the mobs i tanked.  sk's can tank jusat need some tools to kaie it happen aka have  asin that parses 2k dps in your group and most of the time you dont have a problem </p>

[Vydar]

<cite>Ikuri wrote:</cite><blockquote>Kalgore@Vox wrote: <blockquote>Dead Knight wrote: <blockquote>CHIMPNOODLE. wrote: <blockquote><cite>Luxun wrote:</cite><blockquote>CHIMPNOODLE. wrote: <blockquote><blockquote><p>SKs can tank, I do very decent with my SK, but the reason we arenot known to be a ealible tank is because of our interrupts. DEVs seriously need to look into the SK interrupt issue. If they make a solution for that, and make our taunts unresistable like zerkers, then SKs will be able to tank. </p></blockquote> SKs tank very well. Interrupts don't cause any big issues.</blockquote><i>are you kidding me ??? have you tried being the MT on a x4 raid ? You have got to be joking if yo usay interrupts don't bother us. It is becuse of interrupts that we can't dps fast enough and thus build aggro fast enoug hto keep up, it is exactly why zerker are the better dps/tank than SKs are. </i> </blockquote><p>That's pretty much all I do with my SK <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>You're information is innacurate. </p></blockquote>QFE </blockquote><p>excuse luxun he has never done a t7 raid and only knowledge he has is T6</p><p>SK's can tank fine  the str line with the hate increaser and the cast timer 10 percent bonus is really good.  its a mastter of calling assits and not having an over zelous wizzy fusion on pull.  i have easily tanked labs dt lycum first two names in freethinkers (tanked the third but reachingrot kills stupid people) i hvae also tanked most of mmc 2x epics and those guys are no joke with close to 2 million hp on some of them for a 2x.  also tanked first 2 names in mmcis. never a problem in fact i think we have an advantage the self heals off every attack helps a little with reaver line.  </p><p>[I cannot control my vocabulary] i respeced my AA for max str and sta and even after losing the crit for spell damage i doing more dps then i was before.  the haste is good for when we wait for ca's to pop back up also </p></blockquote><p>Kalgore do you have to go every where trying to bash me to make peopel think you are actually a SK ? For peope ltyat don't know, this joke used to be a Paladin who led a guild on Vox to try to drop my master title on my main, ended up hading me a master title on my alt and got me to 4 kills away from overseer before he finalyl gave up surrendered to freeport ...So his feelings are a little hurt. </p><p>Also Kalgore have you successfully tanked Freethinkers onyour SK ? Have you even MT any of the T7 zones successfully ? i didn't think so so shut-the-F-up. </p><p>You come here talking about the SK class is like a [I cannot control my vocabulary] kid from spcial olympics giving advice to David Beckham. Just the shut the F up and go back to your hole clown. </p></blockquote>He wasn't bashing. Others said you provided inaccurate information.  He explained why.  He kicks [I cannot control my vocabulary] as an SK.  He pulls stuff off that other tanks we have (Lazzuras, who's number one or two for most HP on the server and is probably the best geared tank on Vox) have trouble with... such as the MMC x2.  That is a tough as hell zone.  He holds aggro with no issue (and I'm an assassin who dps's an average of 1800 on raids, he holds aggro even with my burst damage), and he's actually respected among players on our server.  He's a huge contribution to our guild and is more of a help than just about anyone else, with his knowledge and his abilities on his character.  He makes what I always thought was a pretty useless class kick [I cannot control my vocabulary], and it's pretty impressive to be honest.  I played an SK to 53 before discovering how right everyone was about its lack of utility, and played the other toons I found more fun.  I may take up this challenge again in the future if I get bored enough.  In the interest of not "bashing you everywhere you go" and appearing to stoop to your level, I'll refrain from talking about your "achievements" or lack thereof.  He just suggested a nice aa line up.  I'm not sure how that qualifies as talking about the SK class like it is a special child-  who are all offended by your comment btw, I heard some Oda Clan members crying from their short bus.  So please, before you go and talk down to Kalgore, please actually get yourself to the level that you can look down.  Right now, you don't even have a t7 SK or an overseer.  So... yeah.

[Vydar]

<cite>Luxun wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Hey Kalgore atleast I have successfully tanked most of the T7 zones and got a Overseer pvp title. Shouldn't you be busy cybering hollyhood (better known as hollywhore) on EFP docks insted of being here trying to make yourself look like a SK ? </p><p>Why don't go back to Qeynos and run a guild again ..i wanna get Overseer on my brigand too. </p></blockquote> What T7 zones have you tanked successfully?  Are we talking about raid zones here or are you referring to say... Acadechism?

[Luxun]

Vydar@Vox wrote: <blockquote><cite>Luxun wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Hey Kalgore atleast I have successfully tanked most of the T7 zones and got a Overseer pvp title. Shouldn't you be busy cybering hollyhood (better known as hollywhore) on EFP docks insted of being here trying to make yourself look like a SK ? </p><p>Why don't go back to Qeynos and run a guild again ..i wanna get Overseer on my brigand too. </p></blockquote> What T7 zones have you tanked successfully?  Are we talking about raid zones here or are you referring to say... Acadechism? </blockquote><p><i>You Vydar how long have you been on T7 ? Just because Kalgore is in your guild doesn't make what he says a fact. He is known on Vox to talk out of his rear-end all the time. The whole idea of "backing up friends" is all cute and sweet, but if you are going to take side with one of your less intelligent friends, then be expected to be put i nthe same category as him. </i></p><p><i>I have successfully tanked nearly all of KoS raid zones, haven;t been able to get to EoF stuff. I can sit here and tell every SK that brags about not beign interrupted while tankign that he is full of himself. There are SKs on pvp boards who actually know their class and have been i nthe sitation before. I was stating that a SK cannot compete with a zerker when it coems to tanking 99% of raid zones BECAUSE of the fact that we get interrupted and they don't. so we can't hold aggro as good as they can (though is it possible to MT as a SK ..absolutely ..just a lot harder requires better aggro management fro mthe raid which in some cases is not possible) The arguement is that why a dps/tank class like zerker out tank SKs when we aresuppose to be the same, just more spell orianted ? </i></p><p><i>Now if Kalgore would spend less time making lies and cybering holly he might get to learn his class better. Bottom line here is, Kalgore is a joke, you can ask any SK that is not in his guild. I got master on 2 toons, because he was tyring to lead a pvp guild lol ...  Facts are facts, and like i said Vydar its cute and sweet that you lie kto back up your friend, but when oyu chosoe to back up a not so intellgenet friend's lies and BS ..expect to be put i nthe same category as him. </i> </p>

[Vydar]

<cite>Luxun wrote:</cite><blockquote>Vydar@Vox wrote: <blockquote><cite>Luxun wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Hey Kalgore atleast I have successfully tanked most of the T7 zones and got a Overseer pvp title. Shouldn't you be busy cybering hollyhood (better known as hollywhore) on EFP docks insted of being here trying to make yourself look like a SK ? </p><p>Why don't go back to Qeynos and run a guild again ..i wanna get Overseer on my brigand too. </p></blockquote> What T7 zones have you tanked successfully?  Are we talking about raid zones here or are you referring to say... Acadechism? </blockquote><p><i>You Vydar how long have you been on T7 ? Just because Kalgore is in your guild doesn't make what he says a fact. He is known on Vox to talk out of his rear-end all the time. The whole idea of "backing up friends" is all cute and sweet, but if you are going to take side with one of your less intelligent friends, then be expected to be put i nthe same category as him. </i></p><p><i>I have successfully tanked nearly all of KoS raid zones, haven;t been able to get to EoF stuff. I can sit here and tell every SK that brags about not beign interrupted while tankign that he is full of himself. There are SKs on pvp boards who actually know their class and have been i nthe sitation before. I was stating that a SK cannot compete with a zerker when it coems to tanking 99% of raid zones BECAUSE of the fact that we get interrupted and they don't. so we can't hold aggro as good as they can (though is it possible to MT as a SK ..absolutely ..just a lot harder requires better aggro management fro mthe raid which in some cases is not possible) The arguement is that why a dps/tank class like zerker out tank SKs when we aresuppose to be the same, just more spell orianted ? </i></p><p><i>Now if Kalgore would spend less time making lies and cybering holly he might get to learn his class better. Bottom line here is, Kalgore is a joke, you can ask any SK that is not in his guild. I got master on 2 toons, because he was tyring to lead a pvp guild lol ...  Facts are facts, and like i said Vydar its cute and sweet that you lie kto back up your friend, but when oyu chosoe to back up a not so intellgenet friend's lies and BS ..expect to be put i nthe same category as him. </i> </p></blockquote>I'm not just backing up a friend, its just fun to refute the BS you spew <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I didn't say what he says is fact.  I've told him to [Removed for Content] many times myself lol.  I've been in T7 for about 2 months, maybe 3.  And I'm doing much better than many of those who I've seen in T7 for much longer than I because I learn my class, I learn my zones, I learn the game, etc.  I don't mind being lumped in the "same category" as Kalgore tbh.  There are only maybe 5 people I know of who hate him, and a LOT more that think you're full of it. 

[Nakash]

<p>Those of you who are finished with flaming each other may be intrested to try the few thinks out.</p><p>- Get Items that raise Fokus (which is the skill that checks if you get interrupted by an atttack)</p><p>- Push your avoidence, what does not hit you can not interrupt you.</p><p>- Push your HP, more HP pushes the amount that reaver Heals in Situations spells and taunts are chained.</p><p>- There are ways to increase your casting speed, faster casting Speed also means less interruppts. (KOS STR End Ability, Some Avatar Items, Time Compression from Illusionists )</p><p>- Improve thinks that let gain you aggro while you are Stuned (Shoulder Spikes, maybe Shield Spikes, Hate Line starter)</p><p>Getting interrupted is a lesser Problem in T7 Raids, there are many other controll effects that make youre life much more harder.</p><p>In early T6 the Crusader Class could not be interrupted. This has been taken from us away shortly after upcomming of the PVP Server. I didnt liked it at this point cause it also take the ability away to cast on the run. That makes pulls and building aggro during the Pull difficult at this time, but aggro was a different story at this time. Now the ability to use Bows makes it up if you mix it with your CAs that you can use on the run.</p><p>Last but not least a minor upgrade in DPS, an major upgrade to the Mana Sieve ability, and one or two nice tools would be an nice increase. But all over all we can't complain in the moment.</p><p>To the point of the Zerker DPS i have to say that the Damage of the Buckler Line is imbalanced in the moment. No Tank should be able to be on par with pure DDs. We will see what changed after LU 36 and 37 are done.</p><p>Regards</p>

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

<p>Azzaroth has some good tips there for people having problems with interrupts. Bottom line is, interrupts are a non-issue for raid tanking SKs though. As far as zerkers "out-tanking" SKs because their aggro is "better" from DPS is innacurate as well. SKs do not have any more or less trouble overall with aggro. With a decent raid setup neither class has issues. </p>

[Controlor]

Kalgore@Vox wrote: <blockquote>(snip) ignoring the flame <p><b>speaking of faster cast does anyone know if the change to crusader hate line adds 10 percent to recast making it 20 or is soe giving us something we already had.  cause if it does add 10 percent more that will be a big leap in aggro handling</b>.  also get the cloak of unrest procs 1,8 times a minute lasts 30 seconds and it reduces my cast times another 10 percent so right now when my cloak procs im pushing 20 percent reduced recast timers and if the change to str end abilty is a good one that will be 30 percent most of the time which would be friggen awesome</p><p>as far as intreuprts i hardly have a problem and thats mostly when i get fluxxed by a mob my focus is 340 if that helps anyone. </p></blockquote>As i have stated on a seperate SK thread. The end line for Str was always improperly typed. It should have been 10% increase reuse time NOT recovery time. Reuse and Recovery are 2 different things entirely. Reuse is how fast you reuse spells (obviously). Recovery is effecting GLOBAL cool down timers. This timer is hidden behiend your spells and is not displayed UNTIL you get something that lowers the time. Illusionists are the perfect example. Time Compression decreases casing time reuse time and recovery time. It decreases recovery time by 50%. I had tested it out once on a shaman to confirm that recovery is "hidden". First i didnt have the buff on him asked the stats for the spell (well the casting reuse recovery times). He responded there was no recovery time. I cast TC on him and asked again this time he reported recovery time as 0.33 seconds. Someone on the other thread also posted the fixed text to have reuse and recovery seperate. This 10% increase is making your globabl cool downs go by faster thats all it is not stacking with a previous ability. That is all

[Squigglle]

maybe they could give sks a little group power syphon? and maybe a skill that can stop enemy aoe's for a short while?

[Pitt Hammerfi]

<p>Sk's have no issues tanking T7 raids at all, sure a guardian is a bit easier to keep alive, but were almost better at keeping hate once we have it with the right group setup.</p><p>Death march on the pull, will guarentee you have the mob long enough to generate your aggro, and i havent even gone down the hate lines, i bet a hate specced SK would do very well.</p>

[Druisagoldengod]

Some additional thoughts, For MTing, hate is definitely not an issue if you have a disciplined raid force, hate speced, and right hate transfer toons.  If the rumored hate cap changes occur, not the ones recently repealed on test, this may become an issue.  And by the looks of it we all agree that SK's can MT, but if you have a guard - stick with them.  For DPS we should not be out dpsing scouts or mages as that is their role on raids. So, for a guild who has a guard MT, and ample dps... we are stuck in the situation of why bring the SK. Some of yall I think are hittin on the answer by giving us a better group proc.  I would think regen but thats the bard's job and we are too much like the bard as it is heh.  Or... what about something that will coincide with dispatch such as a temporary mana increase buff.  What this would do is say when dispatch is called then the wizard does mana burn then when their power is nearing the low end, pop this spell and then can burn a little more yes? You could balance the pally by giving them the same thing except with life keep them in the MT group for some nice saves.  Then again, they still get amends.  Bastages =)

[Bruener]

<p>Well this topic has been an issue for as long as I can remember, and quite a while ago I made a post on eq2flames on what I thought they should do, not just for SK's but for fighters in general to make them more raid viable when not playing the role of MT and ST.</p><p>I recently started a thread about fighters recieving utility for when they are not tanking.... Something that I could really see benefitting SK's might be some kind of hate transfer. Something that is as good as an assassins hate transfer so that it would make it worth having us in the MT group when we are not tanking. There was a time when our mitigation buff was considered a real nice buff but since the diminishing returns of mitigation came into effect this is a useless ability. So, maybe lose the mitigation buff, give us some kind of real good hate transfer and beef up the avoidance buff we can give the MT. Unless they really look at giving us some better utility there is not a lot of reason to bring a SK on a raid...and I know a lot of you are feeling this, hell all fighters are feeling this. Optimum raid set-up usually consists of what...2 fighters, maybe 3 on some encountes, 6-8 healers, 2-4 bards, 2 chanters, and the rest pure DPS. Bards have too much utility, healers bring too much to the table most of the time...no brainer that some of those abilities need to be given to fighters to make them more viable for those raid spots. Give some fighters real nice buffs to put on the MT and ST, give us utility so that we are not given sympathy spots in a raid. And for all of you out there that like the [Removed for Content] status quo (probably DPS classes and bards) go *bleep* yourself. Fighters have been getting the shaft when it comes to participation on raids since launch, and it is only getting worse.<img src="http://eq2flames.com/images/lavaRed/statusicon/user_online.gif" border="0"> <a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/report.php?p=96587" target="_blank" rel="nofollow"><img src="http://eq2flames.com/imag...if" border="0"></a>   </p>

[Collum]

<p>Sooo... </p><p>What I am reading in this thread is that SKs are not really wanted in raids and are among the first dropped to pick up other classes, for more balance in raids?</p><p>If the answer to this is, yes... please let me know so I can re-roll....</p><p>Thanks</p>

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

No. The gist of it is that if the MT or OT is not already an SK, and there is little need for a third based on the targets....then SKs, as all the tank classes, are more likely to be dropped first.

[Collum]

CHIMPNOODLE. wrote: <blockquote>No. The gist of it is that if the MT or OT is not already an SK, and there is little need for a third based on the targets....then SKs, as all the tank classes, are more likely to be dropped first.</blockquote> I would call that a "yes".

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

<p>Not me. I found my spot, and the few SKs that I know who were serious about playing the class for raiding did as well. If you want an assured spot though, maybe not....it does take more work than some other classes, and possibly plain old good timing as well.</p>

[Xartan]

Being 3rd tank in a raiding guild isn't an easy spot to land. Unless you're making your own guild or are in a guild thats just starting to raid and have already proven yourself, you're likely to be the first bumped. I've tanked everything in KOS and most of EOF raid content without issue. I can offtank without issue as well. But what I find a shadowknight really excels at is being the 3rd tank. Thats the tank who has to grab the stray adds and keep casters and healers alive. Thats the tank who has to pay the most attention. And when the main tank goes down, thats the tank who has to take over, since the offtank is already busy. We have great aggro for groups, with death march, rescue, and our normal taunts I normally peel those adds before they hit the casters or healers. This role, unfortunately, really screws up your dps. When my guild was still alive (i hate you vanguard) i was the third tank. My dps was gimped but i never, ever got a complaint or a word about why my dps was lower than a "dps sk" should be. Now, its hard for me to find a spot in a new guild, even being fully mastered and fabled with tons of raid experience. The problem is that the majority of strong guilds don't see a need for this utility, and 99% of them are full already. If we had a power regen buff of some kind, even if its just mana-sieve for the group on a higher scale (didn't we have that in eq1?) we'd be much more useful and people would think twice about losing the power regen we would bring to the table. Remember, with bards they can keep their mana songs running but once you're out of power the only way to get it back is to stop casting and wait for it to slowly build back up... If they could give us something like mana channel or manaflow as enchanters have, we'd be much more useful, even if its a [Removed for Content] version of it. just my .02

[miliskel]

health regen in the wis line along with quite abit of nice utility hehe( think its wis )

[MaCloud1032]

In The alliance raids that we run iam am the pick up tank, off tank, and the o [Removed for Content] tank.  I constanly am intercepting dmg, warding, and in general keeping a lot of our raid up and running.  I call our dps and when AoEs are going to hit.  I can do all of this because of our high wisdom and reaver.  We can eat most AoEs and heal our selfs back up same with intercepts.  I have gone thru labs and taking more dmg than our gaurd and not pull agro.  I die a lot i have 3 full sets of armor.  To have one person take a whipe so a whole raid can progress is nothing.  You save enough raids this way and you get quite a fewbonestossedyourway when loot comes out.  We are not group utility we are raid utility/savers.

[Arioc]

The Wisdom Line has a Group Buff which gives all party members a 2% bonus to their spell dmg, heal dmg, ward dmg, and melee dmg. As well as making the SK immune to fear. Why not up that bonus to 5% and make the group immune to fear? Tell me that wouldn't make the SK more viable in the raid group, place em with the healers and boost their heals as well as prevent them from being feared.

[Druisagoldengod]

What do yall think of... A proc modifier.  Is this in game atm from any other class?  Most procs I've seen are on the 1.8 times per minute.  How about a group buff that increases that to 2 or 3 times per minute?  3 Might be too much, I think much testing would have to be done on it in any case. To balance the Pally maybe have a heal proc modifier? Then of course you have the other step children of raiding, the brawlers.  What about the same thing only for melee crit chance? Thoughts?

[MaCloud1032]

Dirges have that already.  Luck of the dirge makes the 1.8 proc like 2.2

[Druisagoldengod]

BAH they do enough for raids, take it away and give it to us!

[Kelkirra]

Amondus@Permafrost wrote: <blockquote>Well, I am of the opinion that SK's should NOT be MTing end game raids.  They can sure, but a guard can better period.  One way of attacking this is to say make us more tank viable.  While this is sure to be a valid argument, I was thinking of making our dps T1 to make us more raid viable.  When I am raid MTing I never have issues, so I cannot really relate to the things you are mentioning.  However, now that I think about it... boosting 1 toons dps to T1 (the SK) compaired to boosting the entire raids dps by a second dispatch still doesn't cut the mustard does it... hmmm. I still like the idea of a mini manaburn. =) </blockquote> Jumping in late on this discussion, and I'll be honest in the fact that I haven't read everything, but I feel the need to interject here. Please, go back under the rock that you came from. A tank is a tank, period. If you wanted a DPS class y ou should have rolled a DPS class. The SK is a hybrid tank. If you also don't want to tank high end raids, then why in the world would you enroll in a raiding guild with a SK? Utility?

[Kelkirra]

<cite>Luxun wrote:</cite><blockquote>CHIMPNOODLE. wrote: <blockquote><blockquote><p>SKs can tank, I do very decent with my SK, but the reason we arenot known to be a ealible tank is because of our interrupts. DEVs seriously need to look into the SK interrupt issue. If they make a solution for that, and make our taunts unresistable like zerkers, then SKs will be able to tank. </p></blockquote> SKs tank very well. Interrupts don't cause any big issues.</blockquote><i>are you kidding me ??? have you tried being the MT on a x4 raid ? You have got to be joking if yo usay interrupts don't bother us. It is becuse of interrupts that we can't dps fast enough and thus build aggro fast enoug hto keep up, it is exactly why zerker are the better dps/tank than SKs are. </i> </blockquote><p> This as well. How many x4 raids have you been to? Every mob that we fight doesn't interrupt. The interrupts aren't THAT bad if you sit down and develop a casting order. To be quite frank, I have more problems out of our healers not curing a stiffle as compared to getting interrupted. Maybe I'm the only person here that believes that we're fine as is. A boost in focus in the defensive stance would be nice, but seriously guys, how much more could we want? There have been numerous threads about this issue alone in here and in the combat discussion forum and it's the same stuff everytime. We've recieved a SERIOUS agro and DPS tool in DM, a temp MIT buff through dispoil, resist boosts to our taunts via EoF AA lines, up to 6 positions on rescue (and I honestly can't think of another fighter class that got this boost), our power pool is now based off of STR/INT instead of STR/WIS and ppl are STILL complaining? o.O Let's be honest here guys. What is the only thing that guards really have over all tanks? If you guessed ToS, you're right. Well, we're getting DA fixed finally, but that's not enough? A mini manaburn, that's a laugh. </p><p>If they give us much more, you know what will happen. *watches as Devs swing Nerfbat at the SK class*</p>

[Kelkirra]

CHIMPNOODLE. wrote: <blockquote><p>Not me. I found my spot, and the few SKs that I know who were serious about playing the class for raiding did as well. If you want an assured spot though, maybe not....it does take more work than some other classes, and possibly plain old good timing as well.</p></blockquote> TY. 'Nough said.

[Bruener]

<p>What I want to know Naldir is why the hell a guild would take a SK to tank over a guard...oh maybe the guard is on vacation or something; but wait that is why we have a back up guard.  Guards are the raid tanks of the game which I think 99% of the population would agree on.  So ok what does that leave for a SK?  The truth of the matter is that eq2 is messed up when it comes to balance in raids.  There are a select few classes that are "over-powered" when it comes to this and than there are other classes (any fighters besides MT/OT) that get the raw end of the deal.</p><p> So how do you achieve balance...well you take from some and give to others.  Take some of the uniqueness away from some of those "needed" classes and give it to some of those classes in need.  Great example...BARDS.  Yes, it is not right when raids want 4 bards and make anything over 2-3 fighters sit.  How can this be fixed?  You take some of the things that make bards so [Removed for Content] great and you give it to some of the fighters.  I am not talking about making fighters awesome utility, just giving them something that when they are in a tank group and not assigned as the tank they could give the other fighter a real nice buff.  Crusaders used to have this in their mit buff...however because SOE changed diminishing returns the mit buff is useless and there is no way they would throw a crusader in the MT group to buff the tank.  There are really so many options here: hate dump (one that included taunt hate), an avoidance buff that stacks with the tanks avoidance buff, stoneskin type of buff, etc.</p><p> Seriously I have no problem not being the raid MT...I think that is what guards are for.  I just want something that makes us a little more viable for raid spots that multiple of other classes are filling....*cough* bards *cough*. </p>

[Druisagoldengod]

Zomg, what a troll. Point of note, I can tank, and tank very well.  Just, you are pretty slow if you have a well geared well skilled Guard and you use an SK instead.  Thus, is my predicament.  I joined the raid guild in January after a break up.  Now we have more members and are once again min and maxing.  Thus going back to my previous point, I am the first to go. Please, this is meant to be a positive thread.  If I wanted to be told what to do ie crawling back under my rock, though it is a nice rock, I'd post on EQII Flames.

[Asdran]

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>What I want to know Naldir is why the hell a guild would take a SK to tank over a guard...oh maybe the guard is on vacation or something; but wait that is why we have a back up guard.  Guards are the raid tanks of the game which I think 99% of the population would agree on.  So ok what does that leave for a SK?  The truth of the matter is that eq2 is messed up when it comes to balance in raids.  There are a select few classes that are "over-powered" when it comes to this and than there are other classes (any fighters besides MT/OT) that get the raw end of the deal.</p><p> So how do you achieve balance...well you take from some and give to others.  Take some of the uniqueness away from some of those "needed" classes and give it to some of those classes in need.  Great example...BARDS.  Yes, it is not right when raids want 4 bards and make anything over 2-3 fighters sit.  How can this be fixed?  You take some of the things that make bards so [I cannot control my vocabulary] great and you give it to some of the fighters.  I am not talking about making fighters awesome utility, just giving them something that when they are in a tank group and not assigned as the tank they could give the other fighter a real nice buff.  Crusaders used to have this in their mit buff...however because SOE changed diminishing returns the mit buff is useless and there is no way they would throw a crusader in the MT group to buff the tank.  There are really so many options here: hate dump (one that included taunt hate), an avoidance buff that stacks with the tanks avoidance buff, stoneskin type of buff, etc.</p><p> Seriously I have no problem not being the raid MT...I think that is what guards are for.  I just want something that makes us a little more viable for raid spots that multiple of other classes are filling....*cough* bards *cough*. </p></blockquote>I think by 'bard' you mean troubador, as the dirge's only guaranteed spot is the MT group (even meleers have aggro problems).  Only problem with taking some troub stuff and giving it to SKs - is who would play a troub? - Its already the least or 2nd least played class in the game, and thats despite having guaranteed raid desirability.  Its just way to passive (speaking as someone who spent the last 4 months raiding EoF as a Troub and ditched it for an unguilded SK). The only thing I see 'wrong' with SKs is our focus (like paladins) on too many stats compared to warriors.  Brawlers? Well they are just huddled over somewhere in the corner crying if they want to tank raids ....

[Kelkirra]

You have my apologies. I was having a bit of a bad day. Nice suggestions thus far after reading the rest of the thread, but come on . . .a mini mana burn? o.O

[Terron]

How about a buff that shares our hunger line with undead pets of the group. A small boost for our pets, but better for necromancers. If we get the healing and the hate good for us too.

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

<blockquote><p>What I want to know Naldir is why the hell a guild would take a SK to tank over a guard.</p></blockquote><p> Because the difference is slim enough to be a non-issue imo. It comes down to the theoretical now more than anything....people say, well if you have the choice of an equally geared and skilled SK and guard...which would you choose? </p><p>The thing is, that just doesn't happen normally, and is a tough one to judge anyway...not all players are equally good players at their respective classes, and most guilds don't have the luxury of waiting it out until the best player they could possibly get comes along (acutely true if it's a MT that is missing). You should go with the best player available, especially with class differences being so small now. Over the years I've seen some poor Guardians in the MT slot, tanking for what were the "top" raid guilds on my server at various times. Even the most successful guilds don't always have the cream of the crop for every slot at any given moment (including MTs). </p><p>I am the Guild and Raid leader of the 5th largest guild worldwide. Besides our own raid schedule, I am part of, and host, bi-weekly raid alliance ones in my "free" time. Over the years, some peeps have come and gone. We have lost a MT/OT or 2 to the "biggest boys" in our servers raid game. We have also picked up a couple MT/OTs from the top dogs who left their guilds for various reasons. Some were great players, some were less than stellar (to say the least), some improved by playing with solid teams....others....didn't lol.</p><p>They tend to stick with the tried and true formulas generally though....and their successes are a combination of factors...strategy and experimention, dedication, practice...and teamwork. The SK class has changed drastically though, as well as some of the game mechanics (like Dim returns etc.). This is probably why we have seen more SKs making it into the rosters of some of the strongest raid guilds now. One of the top raid guilds worldwide was recruiting on the SK forums only a couple months ago. I do not believe it was for a MT slot, but it was a nice /nod to the class from some that are intricately familiar with the top end game.</p><p>Guards are not the best suited to all encounters. The SK class jumped so much in capability, most haven't seemed to become fully aware of it yet. As OT, I personally don't find any other class has an edge over SKs. Given limited raid slots and the choice of tanks for 90% of targets, I'd go with a Guard and an SK present. That's my preference of course.</p><p>It used to be more cut and dried...the differences in incoming dammage was much more substancial, and SK snap aggro and overall hate was widely seen as lacking. The mitigation, HP and avoid diffs couple with a Guards ability to stop Epic dammage cold for a short duration (aka ToS) also were large. SKs self healbacks were a fraction of today as well.</p><p>More recently, Miti Dim returns came in, SKs were given long duration Miti temp buffs (depoil and syphon Arm if taken), substancial Hate (hate and early decay) and substancial healback lines (crits and/or Reaver), arguably the best snap aggro currently available (aka DM), arguably the best Epic dammage stopper available (DA factoring in Mit). Coupled up with some deity abilities and adorns, SK viability is very real.</p><p>When you get past the MT and OT slots though, pretty much all tank classes are in the same boat...which I find is the main sticking point. Unless you're coming up against a target that is easier using more than 2 tanks...why bring another one. Most often, the answer is lack of other available classes.</p>

[Bruener]

<p>"When you get past the MT and OT slots though, pretty much all tank classes are in the same boat...which I find is the main sticking point. Unless you're coming up against a target that is easier using more than 2 tanks...why bring another one. Most often, the answer is lack of other available classes."</p><p> I guess this is more where I am looking at when I posted here.  I would definitely say there have been some great changes to the SK class when it comes to tanking; however, when it comes to filling a raid after those 2 fighter spots are full all fighters lose out.  This is where SOE could definitely improve on tank utility.  Another fighter besides the tank in a tank group should really be able to help the tank out and I am sure there are countless ways this could be done.  I am not saying give fighters bard utility, I am saying give them something to help out other tanks when they are not the tank.  The mitigation buff that crusaders have used to do this, however diminishing returns killed this.</p>

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

<p>Ya, I know what you mean. </p><p>Check out this supposed quote I copied from the monk boards....we shall see.....</p><p>""Our french community manager managed to get a reply from Lyndro ! Thanks for all the great feedback.  We are aware of some of the utility issues that fighters in general (and brawlers specifically), have in raids.  Right now we have some new abilities that we are testing internally, but we should have them forward facing on test server fairly soon.  We look forward to hearing your feedback, and thank you!</p><p>Lyndro""</p><p>(yes, it's not the first time we've heard something similar.....but still interesting hehe).</p>

[MaCloud1032]

Bha brawlers are on pull duty thats there job

[clamdiper]

<b>To Make SK's More Raid Viable It is sad but true that SOE has pretty much screwed SKs out of being viable. While we weren't nerfed we didn't get the enhancements to add to raids. I took a month and a half off only to have come back to my guild, a guild I was with for almost a year and a half, to be told I will not be raiding any and to look for another guild who wanted a SK. Sad. But I am now done playing EQ2 after being a SK since launch. Bye folks, I truly hope what you're discussing here comes to pass. If not they may as well do away with SKs completely. </b>

[Beldin_]

<cite>clamdiper wrote:</cite><blockquote><b> If not they may as well do away with SKs completely. </b></blockquote>No .. never .. i love my SK.  I would instead vote they should remove Raids completly .. and everything is fine <img src="/smilies/49869fe8223507d7223db3451e5321aa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

clamdiper wrote: <blockquote><p><b>It is sad but true that SOE has pretty much screwed SKs out of being viable. <span style="color: #0000cc">It is not true.</span></b></p><p><b>I truly hope what you're discussing here comes to pass. <span style="color: #3300cc">Everything I discussed earlier has already come to pass, and apparently more goodies to come...I'm a happy camper</span> <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </b></p></blockquote><p> I'm sorry to hear that the attitude of a guild would cause you to quit though <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Hope you change your mind and start raiding with a guild that appreciates what you can do.</p>

[Sportak]

<p>@Shalla If there were no raids, you wouldn't have half your armour ;P</p><p>I used to raid my SK, and when the decision was made within my raiding group to concentrate on the Guardians tanking, I switched to my "old" main (also a Guardian). I rolled a tank class to tank, not be sub-par DPS (even though I could do zonewide of around 900 and out-parse all other fighters except the crazy "scout in plate" zerkers.</p><p>The funny thing is, I switched from my high DPS/low defence SK to my Guardian, only to respec AAs and change gear to lower his defence and up his DPS. And yet he still takes less damage and now out DPSs my SK (zonewides of 1100 or so).</p><p> I don't have any answers as to what can be done about this mind you, maybe a tweak to the mit boost from Despoil, or a reduction in recast. Or pumping up our damage shield. Guardian abilities to soak up damage spikes is hard to beat.</p>

[MaCloud1032]

<p>ive had the fortune of being MT for a labs run.  Running the zone full offince and being MT buffed i pulled 1500-1800 dps depending on mob make up.  Non MT buffed and in mage group i pull 1100-1300.  BTW i love the AA changes.  Ive seen our gaurd pull 1700 in labs and 1100 in freethinkers.  If there were more raid zones where the mobs dps was costent instead of big bursts I think we would see more Sk as MTs.  But I do feel that gaurds should be MT's or they would be a truly useless class.  SKs do need better group buffs though.</p><p>      I find it funny that our group buffs help melee but we should be grouped with casters.</p>

[Meryddian]

I was with a guild on Guk that has cleared pretty most if not all of EoF top content and their main tank is a SK. It's not the first guild I've been with with an SK MT, either. You can be a great SK, guardian or pally tank, or you can be just a so-so one, it's as much to do with the player as it does the gear and spells. However, to make ourselves a touch more useful on raids, I wouldn't mind seeing one of our new level 71+ spells (or an AA ability) that does the same thing as our AE lifetap/heal does, but instead of doing, say, hitting each mob around you for X and healing yourself for Y amount per mob hit, having the heal spread among the group. This would be awesome in AE situations in particular, I think - a nice little group heal that would be incredibly useful but the timer could keep it from being overpowering.

[clamdiper]

Shalla@Valor wrote: <blockquote><cite>clamdiper wrote:</cite><blockquote><b> If not they may as well do away with SKs completely. </b></blockquote>No .. never .. i love my SK.  I would instead vote they should remove Raids completly .. and everything is fine <img src="/smilies/49869fe8223507d7223db3451e5321aa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>I did too but after being given a Dear John and being told SKs aren't useful in raids either one of two things needs to happen. Guilds need to be shown SKs are viable, or SOE needs to make it so they can DPS as well as other classes. I do wish all of you luck because unlike my ex-guildies I too feel SKs are great. Good Luck

[clamdiper]

CHIMPNOODLE. wrote: <blockquote>clamdiper wrote: <blockquote><p><b>It is sad but true that SOE has pretty much screwed SKs out of being viable. <span style="color: #0000cc">It is not true.</span></b></p><p><b>I truly hope what you're discussing here comes to pass. <span style="color: #3300cc">Everything I discussed earlier has already come to pass, and apparently more goodies to come...I'm a happy camper</span> <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </b></p></blockquote><p> I'm sorry to hear that the attitude of a guild would cause you to quit though <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Hope you change your mind and start raiding with a guild that appreciates what you can do.</p></blockquote> I wish I could say there was a chance for things to be like they were but they replaced me with a Zerk and told me there will be no spot. And I had 100% attendance up to my time off and coming back. Oh well.

[clamdiper]

<cite>Meryddian wrote:</cite><blockquote>I was with a guild on Guk that has cleared pretty most if not all of EoF top content and their main tank is a SK. It's not the first guild I've been with with an SK MT, either. You can be a great SK, guardian or pally tank, or you can be just a so-so one, it's as much to do with the player as it does the gear and spells. However, to make ourselves a touch more useful on raids, I wouldn't mind seeing one of our new level 71+ spells (or an AA ability) that does the same thing as our AE lifetap/heal does, but instead of doing, say, hitting each mob around you for X and healing yourself for Y amount per mob hit, having the heal spread among the group. This would be awesome in AE situations in particular, I think - a nice little group heal that would be incredibly useful but the timer could keep it from being overpowering. </blockquote>I too was from Guk, LCN doesn't agree with you and I am now out for good. Shame, I did have Ootog setup real well too. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

Kief@Runnyeye wrote: <blockquote><p>The funny thing is, I switched from my high DPS/low defence SK to my Guardian, only to respec AAs and change gear to lower his defence and up his DPS. And yet he still takes less damage and now out DPSs my SK (zonewides of 1100 or so).</p><p> I don't have any answers as to what can be done about this mind you, maybe a tweak to the mit boost from Despoil, or a reduction in recast. Or pumping up our damage shield. Guardian abilities to soak up damage spikes is hard to beat.</p></blockquote>Not sure, my SK has always been super defensively specc'd. My DPS is lowish for an SK overall, but close to par with guards who are not Buckler specc'd. Don't notice much of a large difference in incoming dammage for most encounters either when we run guard or SK as MT. I'm very far into diminishing returns for Miti when tanking so there is no need for additional Mit for me, I would probably benefit more from giving some up...I just hate to see the numbers drop lol. A little extra avoid would be welcome though. It's more difficult for me to push it as high as I'd like with my current items, and still maintain the Miti level I like.

[Eggwardo]

One idea i think would be really usefull is an AA that allows all of our lifetaps that we cast during a raid to instead heal someone else, this way you aren't just lifetaping over and over again at full hp the heals infact doing nothing

[Norrsken]

Zathor@Guk wrote: <blockquote>One idea i think would be really usefull is an AA that allows all of our lifetaps that we cast during a raid to instead heal someone else, this way you aren't just lifetaping over and over again at full hp the heals infact doing nothing </blockquote>Or just go the easier way and give us a sacrificial heal. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> We heal, then lifetap the health back.

[MaCloud1032]

Umm... that sounds a lot like intercept

[Java]

CHIMPNOODLE. wrote: <blockquote>Not sure, my SK has always been super defensively specc'd. My DPS is lowish for an SK overall, but close to par with guards who are not Buckler specc'd. Don't notice much of a large difference in incoming dammage for most encounters either when we run guard or SK as MT. I'm very far into diminishing returns for Miti when tanking so there is no need for additional Mit for me, I would probably benefit more from giving some up...I just hate to see the numbers drop lol. A little extra avoid would be welcome though. It's more difficult for me to push it as high as I'd like with my current items, and still maintain the Miti level I like.</blockquote><p>How about making Dispoil a reactive buff that has a percent chance to proc when hit?  I was doing some comparisons of my SK with a friend of mines Guardian, and the major difference was that his avoidence was almost 18% higher then and I was in better gear.  Mitigation at 4500 to 5500 means so little its stupid. 4500 mit is something near 56% and 5500 is almost 60% I think. </p><p>What appears to be the main difference is the Avoidence.  When raid mobs are now doing 4K to 5K of damage per hit AFTER the 60% mit, avoidence is going to matter the most.  If Guardian A has an avoidence of 60% vs Shadowkinght B avoidence of 40%.  The guardian is hands down better.  I have seen Berzerkers tank better in Offensive stance then SKs in defensive for this very reason, they have an Avoidance that far exceeds ours.</p><p>Something that could help SK's would be a parry or block buff.  ***OR*** How about a buff, since we are Pure EVIL and half casters, a Lich like spell that constantly consumes power say 1% every 6 seconds that gives us a Deflection buff of X%.  It would be unique for the class and give us the needed avoidence for higher end fights.</p><hr /><p>Spell:  Visage of Terror Cost:   5% mana cast  1% mana every 6 seconds</p><p>Target: Self Duration: Until Canceled</p><p>Effect: Increases caster deflection by 5%(Adept) vs 10%(Master)</p>

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

<p>I'd take any increase to avoid. The diffs are usually not as extreme as 20% though. More in the line of 4 to 7%...seen as low as a 2% diff, really depends on what both toons are focusing on. Usually the average resists are higher on the SKs and the healbacks definitely factor in, but ya...extra avoid would be nice <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Some of the guards and Zerks I raid with struggle on some mobs that I find pushovers, even with similar "tanking" stats...they are at diff stages of gear up and skill, so the player factor is always there as well.</p>

[Norrsken]

Darksavanna@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>Umm... that sounds a lot like intercept</blockquote>cept that intercept is wildly large in its "heal" spread. anything from 0 to hundreds of thousands of damage. I'd prefer something a bit more reliable. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[MaCloud1032]

most i have eaten on an intercept was 10k from vyyme.  right after EoF came out

[Norrsken]

Darksavanna@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>most i have eaten on an intercept was 10k from vyyme.  right after EoF came out</blockquote>YAh, that should be what it would hit you for unless the tank pulls red epics. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[MaCloud1032]

That a was a rough week right after EoF came out.  Those bugs borked resists and mit for a bit.  Being in treasured gear didnt help none either.

[Vici]

Hm, here's a stupid idea I just had. How about a rez on a long timer, kind of like a reanimation thing. 20-30 minute cooldown, usable in combat. It brings a raid ally back to life for a few minutes with 10% more damage and 10% more healing. That kind of thing, come back to life for a few minutes in a buffed state, do some dps or heal or whatever, then it wears off and they go back unconcious. No durability damage on the second death. That'd be pretty rad. Kind of seems like a necro thing though. Paladins could get a similar buff.

[Artinious]

<p><span style="font-family: book antiqua,palatino">Too many SK's want to be DPS.  Start thinking utility.  What can we offer a raid/MT Pledge of Armament - Raid wide An AA ability like a Fury gets, where an aly in their group gets the use of their Salve line of spells.  Our lifetaps. Those are just two.  You want raid tank ideas?  Temp mit buffs like warriors get.</span></p><p>I'm sure there are more (FYI - I really didn't read all of this thread, so its possible these ideas were posted.  Sorry, just my thoughts)</p>

[Dead Knight]

As Shadowknights, the last thing we need is more MIT. With decent gear, Siphon Armament and Despoil we already have the ability to spike our MIT higher than any other class. What we need is +Def. and +HP buffs other than our defensive stance like Guardians.

[Sportak]

Dead Knight wrote: <blockquote>As Shadowknights, the last thing we need is more MIT. With decent gear, Siphon Armament and Despoil we already have the ability to spike our MIT higher than any other class. What we need is +Def. and +HP buffs other than our defensive stance like Guardians. </blockquote><p> To be honest I'm not so sure about that. My SK was my main raiding char for 8 months, and since he was MT I concentrated on getting the best mit I could. His mit self buffed when I stopped playing him was 5219. After I switched to my Guardian and have been playing him a while, his self buffed maximum mit is 4886. With Command and Wall of Force at M1, I can spike it at 7018. With Despoil also at M1 and adding 336 for the enemies around me, I need to have at least 6 to get higher than my Guardian can, and he can't get near the Guards avoidance.</p><p> The thing that always annoyed me about my SK most was something else you mention, and was highlighted in a post on the Pally forums where they all posted to compare mit/avoid/AAs/HP/Power. I was one of a handful of SKs posting their stats for comparison, and despite having one of the top mitigations, my HP was quite low. Even now it's already over 1000 lower than my Guardian self buffed, maybe that's something that could be addressed, the low HP pool really plays a part in how long you survive as MT when the figure is in the thousands.</p>

[Wildmage]

Kief@Runnyeye wrote: <blockquote>Dead Knight wrote: <blockquote>As Shadowknights, the last thing we need is more MIT. With decent gear, Siphon Armament and Despoil we already have the ability to spike our MIT higher than any other class. What we need is +Def. and +HP buffs other than our defensive stance like Guardians. </blockquote><p> To be honest I'm not so sure about that. My SK was my main raiding char for 8 months, and since he was MT I concentrated on getting the best mit I could. His mit self buffed when I stopped playing him was 5219. After I switched to my Guardian and have been playing him a while, his self buffed maximum mit is 4886. With Command and Wall of Force at M1, I can spike it at 7018. With Despoil also at M1 and adding 336 for the enemies around me, I need to have at least 6 to get higher than my Guardian can, and he can't get near the Guards avoidance.</p><p> The thing that always annoyed me about my SK most was something else you mention, and was highlighted in a post on the Pally forums where they all posted to compare mit/avoid/AAs/HP/Power. I was one of a handful of SKs posting their stats for comparison, and despite having one of the top mitigations, my HP was quite low. Even now it's already over 1000 lower than my Guardian self buffed, maybe that's something that could be addressed, the low HP pool really plays a part in how long you survive as MT when the figure is in the thousands.</p></blockquote> Thats unlikely to change Crusaders are meant to have the lowest hp/highest power of fighters, brawlers highest hp/ lowest power, and warriors are the middle ground. 

[Sportak]

Exactly, and since mitigation means less and less (and ours isn't able to go as high as Warriors as conveniently), and our avoidance isn't the same, we're unlikely to suddenly be attractive raid MTs unless something changes.

[Norrsken]

<cite>Wildmage wrote:</cite><blockquote>Kief@Runnyeye wrote: <blockquote>Dead Knight wrote: <blockquote>As Shadowknights, the last thing we need is more MIT. With decent gear, Siphon Armament and Despoil we already have the ability to spike our MIT higher than any other class. What we need is +Def. and +HP buffs other than our defensive stance like Guardians. </blockquote><p> To be honest I'm not so sure about that. My SK was my main raiding char for 8 months, and since he was MT I concentrated on getting the best mit I could. His mit self buffed when I stopped playing him was 5219. After I switched to my Guardian and have been playing him a while, his self buffed maximum mit is 4886. With Command and Wall of Force at M1, I can spike it at 7018. With Despoil also at M1 and adding 336 for the enemies around me, I need to have at least 6 to get higher than my Guardian can, and he can't get near the Guards avoidance.</p><p> The thing that always annoyed me about my SK most was something else you mention, and was highlighted in a post on the Pally forums where they all posted to compare mit/avoid/AAs/HP/Power. I was one of a handful of SKs posting their stats for comparison, and despite having one of the top mitigations, my HP was quite low. Even now it's already over 1000 lower than my Guardian self buffed, maybe that's something that could be addressed, the low HP pool really plays a part in how long you survive as MT when the figure is in the thousands.</p></blockquote> Thats unlikely to change Crusaders are meant to have the lowest hp/highest power of fighters, brawlers highest hp/ lowest power, and warriors are the middle ground.  </blockquote>problem is, its not true. Crusaders have the least power and hp. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Wildmage]

Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>Wildmage wrote:</cite><blockquote>Kief@Runnyeye wrote: <blockquote>Dead Knight wrote: <blockquote>As Shadowknights, the last thing we need is more MIT. With decent gear, Siphon Armament and Despoil we already have the ability to spike our MIT higher than any other class. What we need is +Def. and +HP buffs other than our defensive stance like Guardians. </blockquote><p> To be honest I'm not so sure about that. My SK was my main raiding char for 8 months, and since he was MT I concentrated on getting the best mit I could. His mit self buffed when I stopped playing him was 5219. After I switched to my Guardian and have been playing him a while, his self buffed maximum mit is 4886. With Command and Wall of Force at M1, I can spike it at 7018. With Despoil also at M1 and adding 336 for the enemies around me, I need to have at least 6 to get higher than my Guardian can, and he can't get near the Guards avoidance.</p><p> The thing that always annoyed me about my SK most was something else you mention, and was highlighted in a post on the Pally forums where they all posted to compare mit/avoid/AAs/HP/Power. I was one of a handful of SKs posting their stats for comparison, and despite having one of the top mitigations, my HP was quite low. Even now it's already over 1000 lower than my Guardian self buffed, maybe that's something that could be addressed, the low HP pool really plays a part in how long you survive as MT when the figure is in the thousands.</p></blockquote> Thats unlikely to change Crusaders are meant to have the lowest hp/highest power of fighters, brawlers highest hp/ lowest power, and warriors are the middle ground.  </blockquote>problem is, its not true. Crusaders have the least power and hp. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>whats your STR or INT/WIS at if you can get both high you get bonus power  As Im typing this Im logging into EQ2 to check my STR/INT HP and power.

[Wildmage]

Level 56 Shadowknight mostly wearing Mastercrafted Devout armor/ Mastercrafted Scythe HP: 4359   Power:2883(off stance) 2718 (def stance) Str: 256   Int:396(off stance)  267 (def stance) I don't have any other chars near that level of the fighter type to compare.

[Druisagoldengod]

Yup well, it happened.  We picked up another Necro and so I am being asked to sit on raids =(  Ah well, still won't keep me down.  There was some rumored fighter utility changes in the works anyway. How about some variation on this idea?  Bards now have a double attack modifier... could it be possible to have a double cast modifier?  I'm thinking kind of like dispatch on recast and what not.  That is pretty significant... enough so to not take a second dirge or second <dps class>?  Oh but then the problem of mages yanking agro with this.  Would it be possible for them to avoid?  Maybe a new strat could evolve to where we would call this "double cast dispatch"  and the mages would use their weaker spells which would increase over all dps and still leave manaburn and the such for the regular dispatch.  In certain cases maybe it would be a good idea to double damage manaburn or fusion no? If feasible, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to extend it to other classes who are having utility problems... Double cast for SK's Double Heals for Pally's Double Combat arts for brawlers (though I really don't think they can complain... they do very good dps as it is) And nothing for warriors.  Zerkers in particular need to be nerfed =P Bah, just more thoughts Amondus 70 Shadow Knight Permafrost

[AziBam]

<p>LOL!  Our wildest dreams have come true.  Pledge is now raid castable rather than just group.  See, raid utility!  ROCK ON!  </p> <p>/sigh</p> <p>Course, now that mitigation isn't as important as it used to be given diminishing returns....again I say...  /sigh.  Oh well, I guess every little bit helps. </p><p>From the test update notes (this already came up in another thread here on SK boards but it seemed appropriate to throw it into this thread.)  </p><p>SPELLS</p><ul><li>Offering of Armament can be cast on a raid ally.</li></ul>

[Druisagoldengod]

Could this be the rumored fighter utility change? Not that they are actually giving us anything... but they are making fighters a more prominent role as since scouts and mages will be pulling more agro with the hate changes we have to do more? /crap on 37

[Mistmoore-Milaga]

Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>problem is, its not true. Crusaders have the least power and hp. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>Last I checked EQ2players the fighters with the highest HP and power were both SKs.

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

Ya, it changes pretty regularly, but SKs often top the highest charts.

[Mistmoore-Milaga]

Well, crusaders SHOULD have the highest power. In fact, we've got the potential for 25% more power than other fighter classes by nature of getting our power from two stats instead of one. As for health, well, Dogmae just has some sick gear.

[Controlor]

In regards to hp and pr it was stated in one GU that the developers wanted it this way Highest HP Lowest PR = Brawler Medium HP Medium PR = Warrior Lowest HP Highest PR = Crusader I will look for that update and post back. <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=253002" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Found it</a> Its under the Fighter Changes. Wow didnt know was all the way back to LU 13 heh.

[Wildmage]

<cite>Controlor wrote:</cite><blockquote>In regards to hp and pr it was stated in one GU that the developers wanted it this way Highest HP Lowest PR = Brawler Medium HP Medium PR = Warrior Lowest HP Highest PR = Crusader I will look for that update and post back. <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=253002" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Found it</a> Its under the Fighter Changes. Wow didnt know was all the way back to LU 13 heh. </blockquote> Yeah thats what I've been saying, kinda feels like that got lost at somepoint or equipment is allowing people to make that concept irrelevant. What Im honestly curious is to know is that whats the proportion to hp/power for fighters in general, far as my Sk can tell my hp seems to stay at twice my power. so would that mean the ratio for Warriors and Brawlers is.

[Controlor]

<cite>Wildmage wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Controlor wrote:</cite><blockquote>In regards to hp and pr it was stated in one GU that the developers wanted it this way Highest HP Lowest PR = Brawler Medium HP Medium PR = Warrior Lowest HP Highest PR = Crusader I will look for that update and post back. <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=253002" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Found it</a> Its under the Fighter Changes. Wow didnt know was all the way back to LU 13 heh. </blockquote> Yeah thats what I've been saying, kinda feels like that got lost at somepoint or equipment is allowing people to make that concept irrelevant. What Im honestly curious is to know is that whats the proportion to hp/power for fighters in general, far as my Sk can tell my hp seems to stay at twice my power. so would that mean the ratio for Warriors and Brawlers is. </blockquote>Most of it has to do with equipment. Plate tanks i believe get more + stamina gear. From my under standing the reason that brawlers get higher hp / lowest pr is because the benefits of sta and str to them. They get hte most hp/sta and least pr / str for them. Warriors get medium hp/sta and pr/str. Crusaders get lowest hp/sta and since we split between str and either int or wis (depending on sk or pr) it allows for greater power (i think when totaled up warrios get bout 5 pr / str and we combined would get bout 6 pr split between str and int/wis). This is PURE RAW STATS. Once you factor in buffs and aa it changes entirely. I dont think that brawlers get a +hp% aa. Brawlers also dont get +hp buffs. Guardians have a group +hp buff. Paladins have a self +hp buff. Both crusaders and warriors get a +hp% aa line. This pushes the hp up for plate tanks. Again i am not familiar with leather but i dont think it gets the same amount of hp / sta as plate gets. So if you factor in gear the plate tanks push higher than the brawlers in the hp department. So you see the top hp tanks as being platwearers.

[Wildmage]

<cite>Controlor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wildmage wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Controlor wrote:</cite><blockquote>In regards to hp and pr it was stated in one GU that the developers wanted it this way Highest HP Lowest PR = Brawler Medium HP Medium PR = Warrior Lowest HP Highest PR = Crusader I will look for that update and post back. <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=253002" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Found it</a> Its under the Fighter Changes. Wow didnt know was all the way back to LU 13 heh. </blockquote> Yeah thats what I've been saying, kinda feels like that got lost at somepoint or equipment is allowing people to make that concept irrelevant. What Im honestly curious is to know is that whats the proportion to hp/power for fighters in general, far as my Sk can tell my hp seems to stay at twice my power. so would that mean the ratio for Warriors and Brawlers is. </blockquote>Most of it has to do with equipment. Plate tanks i believe get more + stamina gear. From my under standing the reason that brawlers get higher hp / lowest pr is because the benefits of sta and str to them. They get hte most hp/sta and least pr / str for them. Warriors get medium hp/sta and pr/str. Crusaders get lowest hp/sta and since we split between str and either int or wis (depending on sk or pr) it allows for greater power (i think when totaled up warrios get bout 5 pr / str and we combined would get bout 6 pr split between str and int/wis). This is PURE RAW STATS. Once you factor in buffs and aa it changes entirely. I dont think that brawlers get a +hp% aa. Brawlers also dont get +hp buffs. Guardians have a group +hp buff. Paladins have a self +hp buff. Both crusaders and warriors get a +hp% aa line. This pushes the hp up for plate tanks. Again i am not familiar with leather but i dont think it gets the same amount of hp / sta as plate gets. So if you factor in gear the plate tanks push higher than the brawlers in the hp department. So you see the top hp tanks as being platwearers. </blockquote>Yeah true which makes me think they need to do a major shake up so that those rules are true and that the equipment available shouldn't minimize the rules but enhance them.  If the Brawlers really did have the highest hp in any given situation and the highest avoidance their role as a tank class wouldn't be so gimped.  As far as Crusaders our dps would be benefitted if we really did end up with lots and lots of power to throw around

[Java]

<p>I think that Shadowknights are currently the Jack-of-all-trades in ralation to tanking, we are masters of none.  We are the middle ground.</p><p>Mitigation ---------------- 1) Fighers 2) Crusaders 3) Brawlers</p><p>Avoidence ---------------- 1) Brawlers 2) Fighers 3) Crusaders</p><p>Hitpoints ---------------- 1) Brawlers 2) Fighers 3) Crusaders</p><p>DPS ---------------- This area can fluxuate so much that its hard to put people in specific places.  An SK that is geared for it can be #1, but that is #1 for Tanks, which still puts us behind any DPS class.</p><p>Cusaders need something to stand out from the other tanks.  We have, based on the above list, nothing to offer a raid or even a group over a fighter or brawler.  Sure we can do the job if needed, but there are others that are better.  If we put our Avoidance above a fighters but below a brawlers, then we would be an accepted tank.  I think the AA given to Paladins was a step in the right direction by making their shields 24% more effective.</p><p>1) Crusaders should be the masters of the shield.  I personally love the Bruisers defensive stance since it adds a flat chance to also deflect attacks.  Why not add a flat block chance to our defensive stance?  Maybe a Consentration buff that gives us protection or block effectiveness?</p><p>2) Second option would be to increase our ability to parry.  How about a parry buff?  One that increases our parry chance to somewhere close to 15% to 20%.  Brawlers have their deflect chance to over 30% and thats not counting their defensive stance which can be as high as a flat 16% chance to deflect attacks.  Oh, and the Bruiser defensive stance also gives +defense and +deflection</p><p>Opinions?</p>

[le Rêveur]

Crusaders get the more healing power <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />