what can we offer a raid? honestly

[vyr]

<p>Looking at the state of the paladin now we have little or no use in raids, </p><p>Compared to us zerkers completely beat us in offtanking capabilities - more dps and debuffs, and when they are not offtanking they can do even more dps and are extreemely useful</p><p>Since EoF came out we can all agree that a guardian can tank every mob in the game, while pallies cannot </p><p>We can tank better than shadowknights, but they are now far more usefull then us (in mage group deathmarch, and debuffs)</p><p>We do have a 100% health combat rez, but then again this does not give us a spot in raid - dirges and necros also have a good rez</p><p>Buffs? amends is only cross-group and this limits us. wis and str/grp damage is not great either, and avoid buff is good but doesn't give us a spot in raids itself.</p><p>DPS wise? we have to work pretty hard to keep up good dps as we have one debuff - and generally most raids i've seen pallies go up to 700-800ish max (maybe a bit more in full eof gear and with dps group setup) , more on group encounters, but this is still pathetic compared to other classes and frankly we are tanks not dps.</p><p>Healing? we are not healers, and any paladin who thinks they are one should play a templar instead. Our heals and ward eat too much power, and casting is far to long to be of any use while tanking/offtanking something.</p><p>So in the end, every class can get a spot in a balanced raid? while we are generally told to sit it out or bring a more useful alt to the raid. Dont get me wrong, I love playing my paladin, but I also love raiding - so I made this post to ask all the other paladins what they think should be done to make us a) Viable offtanks b) Useful in raids</p><p> thanks in advance, and hopefully this will give devs some good ideas to implement in RoK or in some (extreemely unlikely) update</p>

[khufure]

Paladins are a great OT.

[redde]

Well the main problem is that most raids only realy require 1 or 2 fighter classes. So you're never really going to be that useful.. The ability to wear plate armor AND heal means pally dps is going to be lower (in order to maintain balance). Ask yourself what any other fighter class does in a raid. Brawlers DPS, SKs DPS, Zerks DPS, spare guards try to dps <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. We can't pull out as much dps as those guys, but we CAN heal, so you have to do a bit of both. I've now rolled a coercer and I must say,raiding is much more fun with him.

[Demoley]

<cite>redders wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well the main problem is that most raids only realy require 1 or 2 fighter classes. So you're never really going to be useful.. The ability to wear plate armor AND heal means pally dps is going to be low (in order to maintain balance). Ask yourself what any other fighter class does in a raid. Brawlers DPS, SKs DPS, Zerks DPS, spare guards try to dps <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. We can't pull out as much dps as those guys, but we CAN heal, so you have to do a bit of both. I've now rolled a coercer and I must say,raiding is much more fun with him. </blockquote>we can do more than what your saying.....i hope you deleted your paladin after i read this crap

[redde]

<cite>Demoley wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>redders wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well the main problem is that most raids only realy require 1 or 2 fighter classes. So you're never really going to be useful.. The ability to wear plate armor AND heal means pally dps is going to be low (in order to maintain balance). Ask yourself what any other fighter class does in a raid. Brawlers DPS, SKs DPS, Zerks DPS, spare guards try to dps <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. We can't pull out as much dps as those guys, but we CAN heal, so you have to do a bit of both. I've now rolled a coercer and I must say,raiding is much more fun with him. </blockquote>we can do more than what your saying.....i hope you deleted your paladin after i read this crap </blockquote>Er.. what? Back up your argument at least. All I said was if you aren't tanking, you should be both DPSing and healing.. I didn't say that's ALL we can do.. Bit defensive eh?

[Archenel]

<p>Palies do less DPS then a zerker but IMO we are better tanks then them cause of our INSANE agro skills and our HP is usually much Higher then theirs. Yes we cant DPS as much as them but we  can be close plus we bring little things to the table that can be used to save raids aka our lay hands line and a ward here and there which zerkers can not. Also when it comes to off tanking adds that stun where Palies are king cause of amends and the "Snap" agro we get from it.</p><p>So it comes down to where your raiding and if ya really need that extra 200 zonewide dps that a zerker can achieve.</p>

[redde]

<cite>Archenel wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Palies do less DPS then a zerker but IMO we are better tanks then them cause of our INSANE agro skills and our HP is usually much Higher then theirs. Yes we cant DPS as much as them but we  can be close plus we bring little things to the table that can be used to save raids aka our lay hands line and a ward here and there which zerkers can not. Also when it comes to off tanking adds that stun or Palies are king cause of amends and the "Snap" agro we get from it.</p><p>So it comes down to where your raiding and if ya really need that extra 200 zonewide dps that a zerker can achieve.</p></blockquote>It really depends what you want from a tank - pallies are excellent at holding aggro, but have less mitigation than your average warrior with his shouts up. In a raid (assuming you are not MT), you don't want to be pulling aggro from the MT, amends is there more as an aggro reduction tool for some high dps class than as an aggro increasing tool for the pally. Yes you can dps, no you won't be top of the parse (vs. other DPS-specced classes).

[Archenel]

<p>Ya but with the mitigation curve the way it is now that isnt really a huge differance like it used to be. We as Palies have the highest block of all tanks (assuming you have the aa which eveyone should strive to get) and block is uncontested to all mobs regardless of level or whether the mobs epic or not. And most healers can tell you that once a mobs debuffed that avoid and hitpoints are king.</p><p>It is really just preferance of your raid leader. Some guilds hate on all crusaders in general regardless and thats something your always gonna have to face but if ya shine when ya have the chance they will grow to love you.</p>

[redde]

Has anyone got any values for the mitigation curve, or even the curve itself. Backed up with evidence of course (controlled tests). I'd be very interested to see it.

[Archenel]

Pre combat change WYRD did, but i havent seen any proof lately. That would be very interesting to see as I'm really curious to see what the mit curve has changed in comparism from warriors tanking compared to palies tanking in relations to damge being taken.

[redde]

We need a top end guardian with a lot of spare gear to reduce his mit in small steps and record the %absorbtion from a level 70 enemy..

[Archenel]

Or for comparsin reason we could have the same guild have a guard tank a raid instance one week and a pali the next that way we could determine how much dps is taken. would prob have to be and easier zone so thereare arent many wipes to get an accurate comparisn.

[Archenel]

<p>oops double post <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[redde]

Perhaps, though if you compared 2 gaurds DPS taken it would be different due to gear, differing debuffs on mobs etc etc. It's too hard to keep it controlled there to actually get anything reliable without doing loads of trials.

[Controlor]

deleted

[redde]

<cite>Controlor wrote:</cite><blockquote>OK i am getting really tired of ALL the paladins out there. INCLUDING the "TOP" end paladins. STOP POSTING THESE THREADS THEY TURN INTO NOTHING BUT FLAME FESTS. There are multiple threads concerning this issue already. PLEASE one of you Devs lock this thread down for the love of all that is holy. </blockquote>Did you read any of this thread?

[Archenel]

Very true but it will vary no matter what, I'm just thinking that we could get a good ballpark figure between the 2 classes and what effect mitigation has with the curve being the way it is.

[Controlor]

<cite>redders wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Controlor wrote:</cite><blockquote>OK i am getting really tired of ALL the paladins out there. INCLUDING the "TOP" end paladins. STOP POSTING THESE THREADS THEY TURN INTO NOTHING BUT FLAME FESTS. There are multiple threads concerning this issue already. PLEASE one of you Devs lock this thread down for the love of all that is holy. </blockquote>Did you read any of this thread? </blockquote>Yes i did. This is pretty much the same thread that was on earlier "class needs rebalancing" effectivly asking for the same thing from the OP. And 3 posts down got a flame already. This was just started today but i can almost assure you this will as it goes on turn into a flame fest. AS these threads often do within the paladin comunity. There was even a thread "Paladins: By zandur" that took the opposite of this topic. And that is just unreadable not for any informational sake but just the sheer amount of name calling. Telling peeps to delete their pally cause they "blow" or just to go off and die.

[Archenel]

Wow man actually this is not a flame thread but good job changing it into one. He asked a question. What do palies bring to a raid table? And i told him a good OT,  basically mediocure DPS with and a small bit of utility. Then i told him what to expect for the most part when it came to the overall opinion of the raiding community and said there are a few guilds that hate palies and a few that love palies so dont get your panties in a ruffle without understanding the logic of this post.

[Archenel]

Also in redders post aka the 3rd one he stated that he thinks palies are very capable in raids of doing multiple things but he just chose to play another class is all.

[Zo]

reroll so we don't have to read these stupid posts every week.

[vyr]

thanks to all that gave me constructive replies and help

[Demoley]

<cite>redders wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Demoley wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>redders wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well the main problem is that most raids only realy require 1 or 2 fighter classes. So you're never really going to be useful.. The ability to wear plate armor AND heal means pally dps is going to be low (in order to maintain balance). Ask yourself what any other fighter class does in a raid. Brawlers DPS, SKs DPS, Zerks DPS, spare guards try to dps <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. We can't pull out as much dps as those guys, but we CAN heal, so you have to do a bit of both. I've now rolled a coercer and I must say,raiding is much more fun with him. </blockquote>we can do more than what your saying.....i hope you deleted your paladin after i read this crap </blockquote>Er.. what? Back up your argument at least. All I said was if you aren't tanking, you should be both DPSing and healing.. I didn't say that's ALL we can do.. Bit defensive eh? </blockquote>you said first and foremost we are never going to be useful.....you want me to back up my arguement and explain to you why i feel the way i do, i suggest you read all my other posts thx

[Tames]

<p>The problem is that there are a couple of extremely abusive top end Pallies advancing their views and its tainting the discussion.</p><p>The short answer is that to top end raid you have to spec to be a pseudo Zerker and be lucky enough to already be in a Guild that lets you raid tank and has done so long enough for you to have the gear to do it. Try being a Pally that plays well, has good instance and resaonable KOS raid gear, is 70/100 and try to get into a high end raiding Guild, just try.</p><p>Raiding Pally's equipped by raids can switch Guilds but try breaking into one by working your way up. Your best chance is to be a long term member of a Guild that gradually becomes a high end raiding Guild and has always had a spot for you.</p><p>In terms of why Pally discussions often end up like a dogfight is that so many get to 70/100 and find our versatility isnt wanted and we have to become AA DPS zerkers. Theres a lot of dillusionment at that point which isnt helped by extreme levels of abuse from some.</p>

[Demoley]

<cite>Tamesan wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The problem is that there are a couple of extremely abusive top end Pallies advancing their views and its tainting the discussion.</p><p>The short answer is that to top end raid you have to spec to be a pseudo Zerker and be lucky enough to already be in a Guild that lets you raid tank and has done so long enough for you to have the gear to do it. Try being a Pally that plays well, has good instance and resaonable KOS raid gear, is 70/100 and try to get into a high end raiding Guild, just try.</p><p>Raiding Pally's equipped by raids can switch Guilds but try breaking into one by working your way up. Your best chance is to be a long term member of a Guild that gradually becomes a high end raiding Guild and has always had a spot for you.</p><p>In terms of why Pally discussions often end up like a dogfight is that so many get to 70/100 and find our versatility isnt wanted and we have to become AA DPS zerkers. Theres a lot of dillusionment at that point which isnt helped by extreme levels of abuse from some.</p></blockquote>i raided casually up until kos and thats when i wanted more from the game and went top end, ive played ever spec we can possibly come up with since aa started in kos, and frankly ive found ways to make this class shine, am i abusing you no, do i think your [Removed for Content] [Removed for Content] yes, but its your choice, play the game the way you want. AND AGAIN, i was a casual raider just like you at one time, i got into a good guild that i knew no one in why because i was a good paladin, and still am if you cant get that though your head im sorry, as for tanks there are alot of guilds with good solid tanks who arent going anywhere and there 800,000 tanks in thsi game so when a guild needs a new tank class of any archtype dont you think they will look for the best of the best and not take some buff [Removed for Content] who cant break 1k on the parse, who cant pick up snap aggro when in time of need, who cant step up and mt any zone when thier guard isnt online, no they want the top of the line something that you havent seem to notice now you want a flame war when ive been nothing but nice to you and you want to keep attacking me, let the fun begin you will lose

[Tames]

<p>I am very happy that things worked out for you and you found a niche, I am sure this occurs all the time on all servers? Hmm I <i><b>keep attacking you personally and you are nice to anyone who fails to agree with you? <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></b></i></p><p>"now you want a flame war when ive been nothing but nice to you and you want to keep attacking me, let the fun begin you will lose"</p><p>Say no more! <img src="/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>There have been many useful points raised in these discussions if you can navigate through the unnecessary abuse and I have learnt a few things myself. I wont go on about my past but I have seen playing for different types of Guilds requires different emphasis. Top end raiding almost always requires fighter classes that specialise and push it to the limit, this is easy for DPS classes and less versatile tanks. The feedback on top end raiding for Pallies seems to be "become a Berzerker" because DPS is king. Thus Guilds choose Berzerkers.  Pallies can get snap agro without top end DPS btw, but everything helps including DPS.</p><p>I just checked my server for wanted classes in all Guilds, no Pallies wanted...</p>

[Demoley]

<cite>Tamesan wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I am very happy that things worked out for you and you found a niche, I am sure this occurs all the time on all servers? Hmm I <i><b>keep attacking you personally and you are nice to anyone who fails to agree with you? <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></b></i></p><p>"now you want a flame war when ive been nothing but nice to you and you want to keep attacking me, let the fun begin you will lose"</p><p>Say no more! <img src="/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>There have been many useful points raised in these discussions if you can navigate through the unnecessary abuse and I have learnt a few things myself. I wont go on about my past but I have seen playing for different types of Guilds requires different emphasis. Top end raiding almost always requires fighter classes that specialise and push it to the limit, this is easy for DPS classes and less versatile tanks. The feedback on top end raiding for Pallies seems to be "become a Berzerker" because DPS is king. Thus Guilds choose Berzerkers.  Pallies can get snap agro without top end DPS btw, but everything helps including DPS.</p><p>I just checked my server for wanted classes in all Guilds, no Pallies wanted...</p></blockquote>thats your server. AND ONCE AGAIN ive used dps specs, tank specs, support specs ive tried it all to see what our class can push the most out of it, and this is it, and ive said if someone else wants a differetn play style thats thier choice and let em stay with it, and ive tried suggest otehr options, but you frankly dont want to listen, you want to say mag and myself are wrong, how can we be wrong we've pushed this class to the limits and became the best when we were just normal players like yourself once, why did this happen well let me tell you, we came out of the box and tried something new. if you cant understand that its your problem not mine check dissolution btw...........................they were recruiting a pally last i knew, oh wait you said we dotn have any high end desireablity didnt you? think again..............

[Tames]

<p>Actually this is a many layered problem and what has worked for you I am sure is a good template for a top end raid Pally in your situation. I personally have accepted that even though I have buckleys chance of raiding EoF with my guild as they are very anti Paladin, I have respecced to DPS for two reasons, even if was asked to help in a EOF raid they dont want my group buffs (previous Guild wanted a more versatile Tank) and since I will be soloing a lot when my Swashy isnt raiding EoF, DPS is more useful to me.</p><p>I concede that you have found a high end Guild thats looking for a Pally. Therefore I am wrong, I didnt think you would, at least in the life of this thread.</p><p>My main concern was the way you made your points and the fact that your solution wont work for the majority of Paladins, one because of stigma/perception and two because you have to get the break that you did. I am happy to concede that you had to prove yourself having got into that position and probably had to work twice as hard as a Guard or Zerk to do it. For many classes Guilds will actively seek you out, for Pallies you have to get lucky.</p><p>There is the issue that theres only so many spaces for tanks in a raid so there will always be a bottleneck, it would be nice for Paladins to be playing on a more level playing field with others though, and despite your experiences they arent the same as mine and many others.</p><p>There is a general point that applies to all classes that to succeed in high end raiding you need to have more application and skill than most (family, work and natural aptitude reasons will hold many back). So some who get to 70/100 wont find a niche outside casual raiding guilds because of that, many may be happy with that, others will want more after they have done Labs 100000 times and will put the time into researching their class to do so.</p><p>Plate Tanks in general arent required for nearly all instances so theres been an erosion of roles in both Raids and group tanking. Pallies do make great group tanks but its a bit of a rolls royce option nowadays.</p><p>Would you be happy if suddenly Pallies were wanted after GU 36, but as healer specced, if your Guild wanted you to be a pseudo Templar? (pure fantasy example here btw)</p>

[Demoley]

<cite>Tamesan wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Actually this is a many layered problem and what has worked for you I am sure is a good template for a top end raid Pally in your situation. I personally have accepted that even though I have buckleys chance of raiding EoF with my guild as they are very anti Paladin, I have respecced to DPS for two reasons, even if was asked to help in a EOF raid they dont want my group buffs (previous Guild wanted a more versatile Tank) and since I will be soloing a lot when my Swashy isnt raiding EoF, DPS is more useful to me.</p><p>I concede that you have found a high end Guild thats looking for a Pally. Therefore I am wrong, I didnt think you would, at least in the life of this thread.</p><p>My main concern was the way you made your points and the fact that your solution wont work for the majority of Paladins, one because of stigma/perception and two because you have to get the break that you did. I am happy to concede that you had to prove yourself having got into that position and probably had to work twice as hard as a Guard or Zerk to do it. For many classes Guilds will actively seek you out, for Pallies you have to get lucky.</p><p>There is the issue that theres only so many spaces for tanks in a raid so there will always be a bottleneck, it would be nice for Paladins to be playing on a more level playing field with others though, and despite your experiences they arent the same as mine and many others.</p><p>There is a general point that applies to all classes that to succeed in high end raiding you need to have more application and skill than most (family, work and natural aptitude reasons will hold many back). So some who get to 70/100 wont find a niche outside casual raiding guilds because of that, many may be happy with that, others will want more after they have done Labs 100000 times and will put the time into researching their class to do so.</p><p>Plate Tanks in general arent required for nearly all instances so theres been an erosion of roles in both Raids and group tanking. Pallies do make great group tanks but its a bit of a rolls royce option nowadays.</p><p>Would you be happy if suddenly Pallies were wanted after GU 36, but as healer specced, if your Guild wanted you to be a pseudo Templar? (pure fantasy example here btw)</p></blockquote>our heals are so trivial i dont see that happening.

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

Tamesan wrote: <blockquote><p>There have been many useful points raised in these discussions if you can navigate through the unnecessary abuse and I have learnt a few things myself. I wont go on about my past but I have seen playing for different types of Guilds requires different emphasis. Top end raiding almost always requires fighter classes that specialise and push it to the limit, this is easy for DPS classes and less versatile tanks. The feedback on top end raiding for Pallies seems to be "become a Berzerker" because DPS is king. Thus Guilds choose Berzerkers.  Pallies can get snap agro without top end DPS btw, but everything helps including DPS.</p><p>I just checked my server for wanted classes in all Guilds, no Pallies wanted...</p></blockquote><p>One of the current most successful raid guilds on Unrest (arguably our current number 1) is still looking for a Pally according to today's recruitment threads. Some more casual raid guilds on Unrest are currently recruiting Paladins as well.</p>

[Tames]

<p>"our heals are so trivial I dont see that happening." - Demoley</p><p>It was a hypothetical question therefore its likelyhood is immaterial <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Hmm well thats great in Unrest server Chimp, it looks like the established culture there is different <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> either that or theres a chronic shortage of the classes that have replaced Paladins on my server (Bards particularly, and Zerkers). A friend who plays a Troubadour says they are as boring as bats_hit to raid with but since he cant get into a raid with his SK he will take what he can get... </p>

[Shooterkelso]

<p>I agree with a few posts back, that our versatility is the key.  I raid plenty with my guild, and occasionally with another raid guild on my server.  I happen to think that Pally's bring a lot to the raid table, and most raidleaders I know would agree.  First of all our heals are not trivial by any stretch of the imigination.  i have only 17 points in heal line and am consistantly the 2nd best healer in raid, occasionally the third best if the main group Fury is doing ZERO Dps.  The only person able to out heal me is the main group shaman.  I auto attack only, since I am usually spamming heals, and consistantly do 250ish DPS, add to that the fact that my Amends puts our head squishy up 600-800 DPS more than normal and I am bringing close to 1kdps to raid as well as 2-300HPS.  Add to that the fact that I can insta aggro adds, bad pulls, mem wipes, anything that needs aggro and you know the Pally is gonna yank it on the first hit and train it to the MT.  Add to that the fact that some zones require an OT for a viable strat, which the Pally can do.  </p><p>No we can't tank like we used to.  Yes Guardian are better MTs.  But we do have a role in raid, and a usefull one if we play our class right.</p>

[Demoley]

<cite>Shooterkelso wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I agree with a few posts back, that our versatility is the key.  I raid plenty with my guild, and occasionally with another raid guild on my server.  I happen to think that Pally's bring a lot to the raid table, and most raidleaders I know would agree.  First of all our heals are not trivial by any stretch of the imigination.  i have only 17 points in heal line and am consistantly the 2nd best healer in raid, occasionally the third best if the main group Fury is doing ZERO Dps.  The only person able to out heal me is the main group shaman.  I auto attack only, since I am usually spamming heals, and consistantly do 250ish DPS, add to that the fact that my Amends puts our head squishy up 600-800 DPS more than normal and I am bringing close to 1kdps to raid as well as 2-300HPS.  Add to that the fact that I can insta aggro adds, bad pulls, mem wipes, anything that needs aggro and you know the Pally is gonna yank it on the first hit and train it to the MT.  Add to that the fact that some zones require an OT for a viable strat, which the Pally can do.  </p><p>No we can't tank like we used to.  Yes Guardian are better MTs.  But we do have a role in raid, and a usefull one if we play our class right.</p></blockquote> um you do 250 dps, you raiding T5? come on, i do over 1.5k+ on singles and well over 2k on ae, and i dont use any heals but loh, the rest take too long for a small amount, if your 2nd on the heal parse your healers suck end of story, i think you may need to rethink your idea, try something new, you might like it too

[Rast]

<p>wow, even I do more than 250dps...  I'm up around 500 zone wides in bad gear with 1k spikes...</p><p>Granted, my raiding alliance is going more exclusive and doesn't seem to like pallies, so I'm pretty much out of raiding for the time being, but that is ok, it will give me time to get better and prove em wrong <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Kaleyen]

Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote><p> my raiding alliance is going more exclusive and doesn't seem to like pallies, </p></blockquote>Not true, always a spot for a Paladin on the roster.

[Rast]

Kuian@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote>Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote><p> my raiding alliance is going more exclusive and doesn't seem to like pallies, </p></blockquote>Not true, always a spot for a Paladin on the roster. </blockquote><p>aye, Meridian <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Its okay though, it will allow me to concentrate on other aspects of the game for a while.  When I get a raid, I'll take it, otherwise, I'm not going to let it get to me. </p>

[Troubor]

<cite>Demoley wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shooterkelso wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I agree with a few posts back, that our versatility is the key.  I raid plenty with my guild, and occasionally with another raid guild on my server.  I happen to think that Pally's bring a lot to the raid table, and most raidleaders I know would agree.  First of all our heals are not trivial by any stretch of the imigination.  i have only 17 points in heal line and am consistantly the 2nd best healer in raid, occasionally the third best if the main group Fury is doing ZERO Dps.  The only person able to out heal me is the main group shaman.  I auto attack only, since I am usually spamming heals, and consistantly do 250ish DPS, add to that the fact that my Amends puts our head squishy up 600-800 DPS more than normal and I am bringing close to 1kdps to raid as well as 2-300HPS.  Add to that the fact that I can insta aggro adds, bad pulls, mem wipes, anything that needs aggro and you know the Pally is gonna yank it on the first hit and train it to the MT.  Add to that the fact that some zones require an OT for a viable strat, which the Pally can do.  </p><p>No we can't tank like we used to.  Yes Guardian are better MTs.  But we do have a role in raid, and a usefull one if we play our class right.</p></blockquote> um you do 250 dps, you raiding T5? come on, i do over 1.5k+ on singles and well over 2k on ae, and i dont use any heals but loh, the rest take too long for a small amount, if your 2nd on the heal parse your healers suck end of story, i think you may need to rethink your idea, try something new, you might like it too </blockquote><p>I think people are missing one part of Shooterkelso's post:</p><p>"I <b><u>AUTO ATTACK</u></b> only....and consistantly do 250ish DPS..."</p><p>He's not casting "single" nor "AE", he's just clicking the auto attack button then playing healer.  People are replying to his DPS comment as if he's casting spells.</p><p>Won't comment on the heal parse bit, since I've never seen Shooterkelso play, although it would amaze me, speaking only about myself, to be 2nd on a heal parse in a raid.</p><p>Final comment:  Demoley, you have a "unique" concept of tact.  Take that as you will.</p>

[Demoley]

<cite>Troubor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Demoley wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shooterkelso wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I agree with a few posts back, that our versatility is the key.  I raid plenty with my guild, and occasionally with another raid guild on my server.  I happen to think that Pally's bring a lot to the raid table, and most raidleaders I know would agree.  First of all our heals are not trivial by any stretch of the imigination.  i have only 17 points in heal line and am consistantly the 2nd best healer in raid, occasionally the third best if the main group Fury is doing ZERO Dps.  The only person able to out heal me is the main group shaman.  I auto attack only, since I am usually spamming heals, and consistantly do 250ish DPS, add to that the fact that my Amends puts our head squishy up 600-800 DPS more than normal and I am bringing close to 1kdps to raid as well as 2-300HPS.  Add to that the fact that I can insta aggro adds, bad pulls, mem wipes, anything that needs aggro and you know the Pally is gonna yank it on the first hit and train it to the MT.  Add to that the fact that some zones require an OT for a viable strat, which the Pally can do.  </p><p>No we can't tank like we used to.  Yes Guardian are better MTs.  But we do have a role in raid, and a usefull one if we play our class right.</p></blockquote> um you do 250 dps, you raiding T5? come on, i do over 1.5k+ on singles and well over 2k on ae, and i dont use any heals but loh, the rest take too long for a small amount, if your 2nd on the heal parse your healers suck end of story, i think you may need to rethink your idea, try something new, you might like it too </blockquote><p>I think people are missing one part of Shooterkelso's post:</p><p>"I <b><u>AUTO ATTACK</u></b> only....and consistantly do 250ish DPS..."</p><p>He's not casting "single" nor "AE", he's just clicking the auto attack button then playing healer.  People are replying to his DPS comment as if he's casting spells.</p><p>Won't comment on the heal parse bit, since I've never seen Shooterkelso play, although it would amaze me, speaking only about myself, to be 2nd on a heal parse in a raid.</p><p>Final comment:  Demoley, you have a "unique" concept of tact.  Take that as you will.</p></blockquote>i saw the auto attack only and it still doesnt impress me, so much of our dps comes from auto attack, ive toyed with just auto attack in many different group set ups and it can range from 900--1500, sometimes more if you get alot of big crits, just depends really

[Troubor]

<cite>Demoley wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Troubor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Demoley wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shooterkelso wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I agree with a few posts back, that our versatility is the key.  I raid plenty with my guild, and occasionally with another raid guild on my server.  I happen to think that Pally's bring a lot to the raid table, and most raidleaders I know would agree.  First of all our heals are not trivial by any stretch of the imigination.  i have only 17 points in heal line and am consistantly the 2nd best healer in raid, occasionally the third best if the main group Fury is doing ZERO Dps.  The only person able to out heal me is the main group shaman.  I auto attack only, since I am usually spamming heals, and consistantly do 250ish DPS, add to that the fact that my Amends puts our head squishy up 600-800 DPS more than normal and I am bringing close to 1kdps to raid as well as 2-300HPS.  Add to that the fact that I can insta aggro adds, bad pulls, mem wipes, anything that needs aggro and you know the Pally is gonna yank it on the first hit and train it to the MT.  Add to that the fact that some zones require an OT for a viable strat, which the Pally can do.  </p><p>No we can't tank like we used to.  Yes Guardian are better MTs.  But we do have a role in raid, and a usefull one if we play our class right.</p></blockquote> um you do 250 dps, you raiding T5? come on, i do over 1.5k+ on singles and well over 2k on ae, and i dont use any heals but loh, the rest take too long for a small amount, if your 2nd on the heal parse your healers suck end of story, i think you may need to rethink your idea, try something new, you might like it too </blockquote><p>I think people are missing one part of Shooterkelso's post:</p><p>"I <b><u>AUTO ATTACK</u></b> only....and consistantly do 250ish DPS..."</p><p>He's not casting "single" nor "AE", he's just clicking the auto attack button then playing healer.  People are replying to his DPS comment as if he's casting spells.</p><p>Won't comment on the heal parse bit, since I've never seen Shooterkelso play, although it would amaze me, speaking only about myself, to be 2nd on a heal parse in a raid.</p><p>Final comment:  Demoley, you have a "unique" concept of tact.  Take that as you will.</p></blockquote>i saw the auto attack only and it still doesnt impress me, so much of our dps comes from auto attack, ive toyed with just auto attack in many different group set ups and it can range from 900--1500, sometimes more if you get alot of big crits, just depends really </blockquote>Fair enough, although just guessing this guy is speced out really toward the heal range, if he is truly parsing that high on heals, so who knows.  Be honest, I never look at my DPS taunt..if I'm tanking, I try my best to hold aggro.  If I'm playing support/spot healing, I try my best to do that.  I don't try to slack on DPS, but I don't worry about what I DPS per-se, as weird as that sounds.

[Shooterkelso]

<p><span style="font-size: small; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Troubor, you are correct.  i simply didn't reply becuase as usual this board turned into a flame about my DPS and ignored the point completely as to what we offer a raid.  Yes, now I have my heal line completely full (thank you for the free respec), I have healing adornments everywhere I can put them on.  Yes I am in DEF stance on raid, and yes I am spam healing.  You bet a lot of our DPS comes from Auto Attack.  Two weeks ago I went to a courts raid (yeah yeah easy as heck) but they didn't need my heals so I went OFF, parsed 900 zone wide and am completly not specced to do any damage (didn't evne have a two-hander).  While our damage does come largely from auto attack you need to not be casting a heal spell in order to swing, and guess what, I am spam healing almost constantly.  The last four raids I went on, all KoS, I finished 2, 3, 2, 2 respectivly on the heal parse.  If you think our heals are trivial simply run the numbers.  Sit down with your 70 Fury and your 70 Pally completly specced out to heal, pick a 8 minute fight, do the math on how much HPS you can each put out if you land every spell, you'll find that comments like "our heals are trivial," hold no water whatsoever.  Did i role my Pally to heal, heck no.  Is it usefull in a raid, heck yes.  Add to the heals my 250 DPS I can do while spam healing, the 600-800 more DPS your best squishy can do with Amends on and you are always going to be in the top five of the combined hps/dps zonewide parse.  Anyone bringing 25-30% of a raid's heals PLUS 250 dps, PLUS snap aggro, PLUS off tankability, PLUS  600-800 more DPS from Amends has a role in a raid IMO.</span></p>

[morningmists]

<p>I don't see how you can get to be 2nd/3rd on  KOS parse, unless you are like running shaman only or something for your tank!</p><p>KOS Raids i can't even get through casting ONE 2 second heal and it will end up healing for 150 or something because the tank is always so full. EOF Is same story but with spikes every 20-30 seconcds or so where a heal will land for full. </p><p>And what is this crap can't tank like we used to? [Removed for Content]...my god I only have 2 pieces of EOF raid gear and I buff up to 14,500 hp as of last night in our TFT raid and have 25.6% block, ok I guess I had a guard in my group so 14k without that...</p><p>ToS is only 2 hits now, and short term miti buffs just don't do that much...there's no reason to not share tanking duties if you want some of the action...</p><p>Oh and Shooterkelso...if you are just healing why not go offensive so your autoattack has a higher hit %? It's not like you are gonna get agro with heals and auto attack, it's so quick to flip defensive on if you are going to rescue something.</p>

[Rast]

<p>I've actually started tanking some low end KoS raids.  I'm not fully geared yet, so my HPs aren't all that great (can hit about 12k raid buffed right now).  But self buffed only, I can hit 55% Mit and 48% avoidance in low end KoS fabled/Legendary/MC gear with only a handful of adornments.  Give me raid buffs, and I'm closer to 60% mit and 55% avoidance, which is pretty good given my gear.</p>

[Demoley]

<cite>Shooterkelso wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="font-size: small; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Troubor, you are correct.  i simply didn't reply becuase as usual this board turned into a flame about my DPS and ignored the point completely as to what we offer a raid.  Yes, now I have my heal line completely full (thank you for the free respec), I have healing adornments everywhere I can put them on.  Yes I am in DEF stance on raid, and yes I am spam healing.  You bet a lot of our DPS comes from Auto Attack.  Two weeks ago I went to a courts raid (yeah yeah easy as heck) but they didn't need my heals so I went OFF, parsed 900 zone wide and am completly not specced to do any damage (didn't evne have a two-hander).  While our damage does come largely from auto attack you need to not be casting a heal spell in order to swing, and guess what, I am spam healing almost constantly.  The last four raids I went on, all KoS, I finished 2, 3, 2, 2 respectivly on the heal parse.  If you think our heals are trivial simply run the numbers.  Sit down with your 70 Fury and your 70 Pally completly specced out to heal, pick a 8 minute fight, do the math on how much HPS you can each put out if you land every spell, you'll find that comments like "our heals are trivial," hold no water whatsoever.  Did i role my Pally to heal, heck no.  Is it usefull in a raid, heck yes.  Add to the heals my 250 DPS I can do while spam healing, the 600-800 more DPS your best squishy can do with Amends on and you are always going to be in the top five of the combined hps/dps zonewide parse.  Anyone bringing 25-30% of a raid's heals PLUS 250 dps, PLUS snap aggro, PLUS off tankability, PLUS  600-800 more DPS from Amends has a role in a raid IMO.</span></p></blockquote>i got your point but in a top end guild there is no use for paladin to play like that, we do 2 things dps and tank, if you think healing is the way to go, good for you, but over all its a crappy way to play, with good healers your heal parses should never be that high when it comes to eof

[Shooterkelso]

<p>Does anyone else get tired of these boards simply becoming flames?  I was simply trying to give my answer for what I think a Paladin can do on a raid.  Most raiding guilds, all of the top 10 on my server anyway, do not use Pally's as MT's.  I did not say that I could not tank, or that Pally's can not tank, I tank plenty of raids as a fill in.  I said I can not tank as good as I used to.  You can say all you want that every healer (probably 30 or so) that i have raided with sucks because I can parse so high.  You can tell me that we only do two things, tank and dps, and I can then say that all your DPSers that you raid with suck. </p><p>None of that addresses the question asked.  I am simply saying we can heal, we can DPS (alot more than shows on a prase because of Amends), we can aggro like Gods, and we can off tank (assuming that you aren't one of the plethora of Pally MTs in uber guilds that are killing Woushi 4 nights a week).  In my opinion, and in my experience those traits are sought after by raid leaders and enjoyed.  I happen to embrace my versatility and enjoy playing it.  Just because I happen to use heals, that happen to be Pally spells, and I use them well does not mean it is a crappy way for me to play, or that I should role a Templar, any more than a DPS Pally that isn't tanking should go role a ranger.</p><p>We have a bad enough rep in game as it is, do we need to make it worse by tearing each other apart here?</p><p>P.S. The reason i don't go offensive is because mastered Amends plus 2nd place on the heal parse does pull aggro, all I have to do is look at a taunt to steal aggro.</p>

[Demoley]

<cite>Shooterkelso wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Does anyone else get tired of these boards simply becoming flames?  I was simply trying to give my answer for what I think a Paladin can do on a raid.  Most raiding guilds, all of the top 10 on my server anyway, do not use Pally's as MT's.  I did not say that I could not tank, or that Pally's can not tank, I tank plenty of raids as a fill in.  I said I can not tank as good as I used to.  You can say all you want that every healer (probably 30 or so) that i have raided with sucks because I can parse so high.  You can tell me that we only do two things, tank and dps, and I can then say that all your DPSers that you raid with suck. </p><p>None of that addresses the question asked.  I am simply saying we can heal, we can DPS (alot more than shows on a prase because of Amends), we can aggro like Gods, and we can off tank (assuming that you aren't one of the plethora of Pally MTs in uber guilds that are killing Woushi 4 nights a week).  In my opinion, and in my experience those traits are sought after by raid leaders and enjoyed.  I happen to embrace my versatility and enjoy playing it.  Just because I happen to use heals, that happen to be Pally spells, and I use them well does not mean it is a crappy way for me to play, or that I should role a Templar, any more than a DPS Pally that isn't tanking should go role a ranger.</p><p>We have a bad enough rep in game as it is, do we need to make it worse by tearing each other apart here?</p><p>P.S. The reason i don't go offensive is because mastered Amends plus 2nd place on the heal parse does pull aggro, all I have to do is look at a taunt to steal aggro.</p></blockquote>using amends while dpsing thats something most dont do, troub's control mage aggro, scouts maintain their own, our class can do everything yes, but in top end there really isnt a need for a healing pally, in 98% of top end guilds pallies are used for off tanks and dpsing when there is no need to off tank using amends while dpsing usually means pulling aggro, some of us including myself even pull aggro without amends, there is nothign wrong wiht the way you play, just not for me, and im sure i speak for all the uber when i say its not for them...

[morningmists]

<cite>Shooterkelso wrote:</cite><blockquote>P.S. The reason i don't go offensive is because mastered Amends plus 2nd place on the heal parse does pull aggro, all I have to do is look at a taunt to steal aggro.</blockquote><p> Well, don't look at the taunt? Healers don't taunt usually...</p><p>lol, but honestly I'm not seeing how your numbers add up.</p><p>You say you heal 2-300 hps. We all know that heals are somewhat less than 1 threat per hp, but let's just go with 1:1 for simplicity=average 250 threat per second</p><p>You say you autoattack 250dps = 250 threat per second</p><p>You say your amends allows 6-800 more dps = averge 700 threat per second</p><p>Now you are trying to tell me that you pull agro with 1200 threat per second? That's a joke right?</p>

[Shooterkelso]

<p>First off your math isn't right.  My Amends adds that much yes, but I am getting 41% of total DPS of a caster (usually high 2000's range sometimes 3k or a lil over).  That's 1200 alone, plus my 250, plus 300 for heals (who really knows what that is, somewhere between 0-300), plus sigil to keep the rest of my group of squishies alive.  And yet all of that is irrelevant, because that isn't how a raid works.  It works more like "Dispatch,"..."Nuking..."  "WAIT SIGIL in, gogogogo," "Tank spiking" Boom LoH, Ward, ARch and other heal (8500 or so in heals)....plus the whole time my strength line adding 10% to all of that.  Raids don't work on averages, they spike, they wax they wane.  41% of a Wiz 20k nuke is 8200 hate for me plus another 820 for my 10%, plus sigil if it stacks (I don't think it does, but I'm not sure).  Frankly I like it that way, and i do my best to keep it that way.  I figure its my job to keep my self #2 on the hate list one mm away from stealing aggro at any point in time.</p><p>Like most other Pally's out there if I want aggro it is about as hard to get as sneezing.</p>

[Demoley]

<cite>Shooterkelso wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>First off your math isn't right.  My Amends adds that much yes, but I am getting 41% of total DPS of a caster (usually high 2000's range sometimes 3k or a lil over).  That's 1200 alone, plus my 250, plus 300 for heals (who really knows what that is, somewhere between 0-300), plus sigil to keep the rest of my group of squishies alive.  And yet all of that is irrelevant, because that isn't how a raid works.  It works more like "Dispatch,"..."Nuking..."  "WAIT SIGIL in, gogogogo," "Tank spiking" Boom LoH, Ward, ARch and other heal (8500 or so in heals)....plus the whole time my strength line adding 10% to all of that.  Raids don't work on averages, they spike, they wax they wane.  41% of a Wiz 20k nuke is 8200 hate for me plus another 820 for my 10%, plus sigil if it stacks (I don't think it does, but I'm not sure).  Frankly I like it that way, and i do my best to keep it that way.  I figure its my job to keep my self #2 on the hate list one mm away from stealing aggro at any point in time.</p><p>Like most other Pally's out there if I want aggro it is about as hard to get as sneezing.</p></blockquote>first off id like to see the name of your pally, and why you keep posting anon, something tells me your just an average joe in an average raiding guild

[OrcSlayer96]

<cite>Shooterkelso wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>First off your math isn't right.  My Amends adds that much yes, but I am getting 41% of total DPS of a caster (usually high 2000's range sometimes 3k or a lil over).  That's 1200 alone, plus my 250, plus 300 for heals (who really knows what that is, somewhere between 0-300), plus sigil to keep the rest of my group of squishies alive.  And yet all of that is irrelevant, because that isn't how a raid works.  It works more like "Dispatch,"..."Nuking..."  "WAIT SIGIL in, gogogogo," "Tank spiking" Boom LoH, Ward, ARch and other heal (8500 or so in heals)....plus the whole time my strength line adding 10% to all of that.  Raids don't work on averages, they spike, they wax they wane.  41% of a Wiz 20k nuke is 8200 hate for me plus another 820 for my 10%, plus sigil if it stacks (I don't think it does, but I'm not sure).  Frankly I like it that way, and i do my best to keep it that way.  I figure its my job to keep my self #2 on the hate list one mm away from stealing aggro at any point in time.</p><p>Like most other Pally's out there if I want aggro it is about as hard to get as sneezing.</p></blockquote>One thing you may want to look at, is unless you need the 10% increase hate in the STR line, redistribute the points to the 1st 3 abilities(STR stat, Swift Attack, and the normal haste increase).  That way you have a larger margin of hate you can aquire and still benefit from the STR end line ability.  With the KOS AA revamp it only requires 22 points from the line not 4 in each ability down to unlock...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Of course, if you are in amage/scout heavy group with no group agro reducer and use both Amends and Sigil, it is a moot point on agro.  Sigil wont grab additional agro from amends target but the 2 will supplement your total incoming hate for the duration of sigil(not quite sure on how this is factored into the 50% max hate transfered/gained cap).

[Shooterkelso]

<p>Nah.  I like the aggro.  It's good for when I have to off tank, and when i am running groups.</p><p>Dem, my name is Shooterkelso, my guild is Pride and Passion, my server is Oasis and I am just an average Pally in an Average raid guild, I've never claimed to be anything else.</p>

[Tharinor Degaulle]

You know, all the flaming just makes me feel like there's a lot of Paladins out there who think they know their class but actually don't know it as well as they think they do.  There's a lot of valid points on both sides and people tend to make them all mutually exclusive and try to say that one option is better than the other when in reality, they are missing the obvious evidence in front of them of how versatile our class is.

[Demoley]

Tharinor@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote>You know, all the flaming just makes me feel like there's a lot of Paladins out there who think they know their class but actually don't know it as well as they think they do.  There's a lot of valid points on both sides and people tend to make them all mutually exclusive and try to say that one option is better than the other when in reality, they are missing the obvious evidence in front of them of how versatile our class is.</blockquote>you know ive played every roll we can in my years over a paladin, and honestly they work for casual guilds but when you get into higher end content being a buff/heal spec paladin doesnt cut it, tanking spec works well if your set up for tanking, but over  all ive found dps to be the most well rounded spec of all, we dont lose any of our tanking ability except 4% to hp big deal....10.4k hp self buffed without that 4% bonus, i know what our class can do in any situation ive played it long enough to understand this, If you think you know the class so much better step up and say it, you have no valid evidence to back up your story

[Shooterkelso]

Tharinor@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote>You know, all the flaming just makes me feel like there's a lot of Paladins out there who think they know their class but actually don't know it as well as they think they do.  There's a lot of valid points on both sides and people tend to make them all mutually exclusive and try to say that one option is better than the other when in reality, they are missing the obvious evidence in front of them of how versatile our class is.</blockquote> Aye Tharinor, and that is really the answer to the question of this thread. If you weed through everything else, the fact that there are so many answers is the answer. What do we bring to a riad, "yes." Is the answer. We bring many many things. /hug versatility.