And then the other shoe dropped......DPS reduction for PVE rangers.

[stryker268]

<p>  Aeralik is the dev from the pvp board and this was his comment on the upcoming changes.  The rest was my response.</p><p>Aeralik wrote: </p><blockquote>Quarter@Venekor wrote: <blockquote><p>And while you're at it, what's being done about ranged auto-attack damage?</p><p>Rangers can auto-attack you for 1k+ damage at range. I don't see how that didn't need a nerf but double-up somehow did need one?</p></blockquote>That is part of the tweaking damage by level range.  High level ranged damage was tuned down in general.  Again its easily tweakable if its still too high so feel free to submit feedback on it. </blockquote><p>   Ok, this is just the worst news you could possibly give an entire class.  It's bad enough you want to take all the elements that might keep us alive in a fight, now you want to take away the lions share of any rangers dps.  Not only does this effect PVP rangers, it will also pretty much kill the PVE ranger as well.  A ranger is taken on a raid for one reason only, dps.  We have practically no utility other than a few debuffs.  You have taken away survelience as a viable option to consussive (which remained a usable ability for casters).  They changed the /target ability so that you can no longer use it with Amazing Shot to pull tough mobs.  We are already out-parsed by Assassins and Swashbucklers doing 3k+ dps and now you want to take the last thing that makes us useful as a class?</p><p>  Auto-attack damage is the lions share of our dps output, period.  Before I learned this the best I could ever parse was around 1100 dps.  With no other changes to gear or AA's my dps immeadiatly shot up to 1500-1700.  With some equipment changes and a respec to take advantage of this I can now parse  1800-2000 dps consistently, and I don't even have a good fabled bow.  Now you are telling me that not only are you going to take away any chance at a good PVP fight, but also the ability to be of any importance in my raid guild?</p><p>  I have been a faithful subscriber to EQII since launch.  I moved to a pvp server within days of it being available.  I have spent hundreds of hours lvling toons to support my Ranger via tradeskills.  I may not be the best ranger in EQII but I consider myself an asset and know what my class is capable of.   This last hit of the nerf bat you have listed in this thread has me seriously considering cancelling BOTH my account.  Now you tell me that that hit is even worse than what you first stated!!</p><p>  It's been a long time, but I believe that the real world is still out there, maybe it's time to get back to it and away from this game we call Evercrack.  Leave it for the farmers, lvl locks and newbs.  "And the meak shall inherit the earth."  Good job SOE</p>

[Gareorn]

<p>Are you FREAKING kidding me!</p><p>I definately have something to say, but thoughts right now wouldn't get pass the filter. </p>

[Ponos]

<p>It's shoe.  And then the other <i>shoe </i>dropped.  I vividly remember employing this catchphrase upon discovering my high school girlfriend had cheated on me <i>again.</i>  "And then the other shoe dropped.  You [Removed for Content]."</p><p>I feel your pain.  I do, I truly do.  What's a ranger without his bow!  But it's shoe.  And then the other <i>shoe </i>dropped.  (You [Removed for Content].)</p><p>Perhaps Linda Rodina can help shed some light on the eyt...eytem...uh, eytemol...the history of the catchphrase.  I wash my hands a lot and count toothpicks. </p><p><b><span style="color: #3333cc">[Q] <i>From Linda Rodina</i>: "I am interested in the origin of the phrase, <i>waiting for the other shoe to drop</i>. Would you know about this phrase?"</span></b></p><p><b><span style="color: #3333cc">[A] Curiously, few of my reference works even mention this phrase. When they do, it's usually in the form <i>drop the other shoe!</i>, meaning "go on, say the next obvious thing!", which seems to have been known for most of the twentieth century.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="color: #3333cc">There was a discussion about your form of the phrase among members of the American Dialect Society some time ago, to no very positive effect, though it was established that it has been around for a long time. Barry Popik found a cartoon about Hitler in the <i>New York World-Telegram</i> for 15 February 1943 entitled "Waiting for That Other Shoe to Drop!", indicating that the phrase was by then well enough known to be something of a catchphrase. More recently, he found an even older example in the <i>New York Times</i> of March 1921: "If nine out of ten of us hadn't heard that ‘drop that other shoe' chestnut and molded our lives accordingly for the sake of the neighbor below us, what would be the end of us?" So it was old even then.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="color: #3333cc">Its source would seem to be the following story. A man comes in late at night to a lodging house, rather the worse for wear. He sits on his bed, drags one shoe off and drops it on the floor. Guiltily remembering everyone around him trying to sleep, he takes the other one off much more carefully and quietly puts in on the floor. He then finishes undressing and gets into bed. Just as he is drifting off to sleep, a shout comes from the man in the room below: "Well, drop the other one then! I can't sleep, waiting for you to drop the other shoe!". This may come from music hall or vaudeville, though it would seem that nobody has been able to tie it down more precisely.</span></b></p>

[Janaka]

<p>Are you sure this isn't a high-end dps change for PVP only?</p>

[RoXx]

[Removed for Content]? pve nerfed becaused of pvp? bring us some news? this is pretty standard nowadays..

[stryker268]

  Lol, my mistake.  You are absolutely correct.  It is "other shoe."

[TerriBlades]

<p>Someone needs to tell these whiney [Removed for Content] rogues they need to have a nice tall glass of shut the [Removed for Content] up. Yes, you are a scout, but no, you shouldnt have the same damage output as an assassin or a ranger. Period!</p><p>Its not just rogues though, but a great deal of the [Removed for Content] is coming from that direction. In all forms. From, whaaaa rangers hit too hard with their auto attack, to whaaaa rangers to hit percent is 95+, to OMGZ Tenderwood arrows have a +75 to hit on them, they are broken. Give me a break. For once, I would love if before they actually whined their way into nerfing a class, they would actually play the class. Then maybe they would understand, but most likely not.</p><p>Funny, I dont recall them rolling out fixes for Swashys when everyone was talking about how insane their damage output was at the start of the expansion. Why is that? I dont remember them rushing out to fix Summoners when they were top DPS, hell they even gave necros a boost with lifeburn. So why is it whenever rangers are top on the parse everyone and their momma gets their panties in a bunch? And more important then that, why the hell do the devs insist on listening to them? Rothgar, I know you troll these forums because you play a ranger. Wanna chime in here? Maybe explain why it seems the devs want to keep rangers in the dog house, so to speak?</p><p>As much as I hate PvP, this change stinks. You basicly take away the one way that a ranger is going to be able to take down anyone else 1 on 1 by nerfing their damage output. Its simple really, if the [Removed for Content] of PvP knew how to play their classes properly, they would greatly increase the chances of downing rangers all the time, rather then come crying on the forums about how they got sniper shotted by a ranger, and before they could even find their target they were dead. Keep a ranger close, and you'll have a dead ranger. Its simple really. If this change makes its way over to PvE, well thats just one more reason for me to hate PvP. With all the hate in PvE focused on rangers hitting 3 and 4k parses, the last thing I want to see is another nerf... however,</p><p> Lockeye has already publicly stated</p><p><blockquote> I'm looking into crafted arrow balance as part of this update. As with anything I touch, you pretty much already know what to expect... </blockquote></p><p>We'll see how that goes. </p>

[Aeralik]

At the start of that thread in the first paragraph, I talk about the damage reductions in pvp across the board.  These mechanics already exist but we are now using modifiers based on level range.  So high level rangers will see lower ranged auto attack damage while fighting i<i>n PvP.  </i>In PvE fights damage calculations remain the same.  Nothing to see here other than some misunderstanding of the PvP balancing.

[stryker268]

<p>  That is a major relief Chris.  Thank you for clearing that up.  Someone had said that the damage tweak for ranged auto-attack was going to  be addresses on the PVE portion of GU36.  I searched and searched for this but could not find where you had said that.  So again, my apologies for getting it wrong.</p><p>   Just keep in mind that as a class we are defined only on our ability do do damage in PVE.   Also as a class we have seen too many PVP nerfs and up limiting our abilites in PVE.  An example of this being our Survelience not being viable as a means to pull a tough mob out of a crowd of social mobs anymore.  Yet wizards and coercers have the Concussive ability which still does exactly what Suvelience used to.</p>

[pseudocide]

surveilance was bugged, none of the other spells in that line pulled w/o aggro, and idk how that has anything to do with pvp, freeps always social aggro.

[stryker268]

  The survelience but was "fixed"  because people were using it in pvp by casting it on a pet while in city and making them engage without actually attacking.  One of the rangers on my server did it in a tradeskill instance and got over 100p from the person he killed.  It was changed soon after that.

[Dextera]

<cite>stryker268 wrote:</cite><blockquote>     Just keep in mind that as a class we are defined only on our ability do do damage in PVE.   Also as a class we have seen too many PVP nerfs and up limiting our abilites in PVE.  An example of this being our Survelience not being viable as a means to pull a tough mob out of a crowd of social mobs anymore.  Yet wizards and coercers have the Concussive ability which still does exactly what Suvelience used to.</blockquote> Haha. A player, telling a Dev, how the game works. C'mon now... really? lol.

[Gareorn]

Dextera@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote><cite>stryker268 wrote:</cite><blockquote>     Just keep in mind that as a class we are defined only on our ability do do damage in PVE.   Also as a class we have seen too many PVP nerfs and up limiting our abilites in PVE.  An example of this being our Survelience not being viable as a means to pull a tough mob out of a crowd of social mobs anymore.  Yet wizards and coercers have the Concussive ability which still does exactly what Suvelience used to.</blockquote> Haha. A player, telling a Dev, how the game works. C'mon now... really? lol.</blockquote>You must be new around here.  There are dozens of examples in these threads where players taught a dev a thing or two about how an aspect of the game works.  As a matter of fact, I believe the devs encourage feedback.

[Terrius]

This is the second time the PVP changes have been posted like they will effect PvE, Stop stiring up trouble, PVP doesnt effect PvE. IF it's on the PVP board chances are it wont effect us normal PvE players.

[Gareorn]

Terrius@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote>This is the second time the PVP changes have been posted like they will effect PvE, Stop stiring up trouble, PVP doesnt effect PvE. IF it's on the PVP board chances are it wont effect us normal PvE players.</blockquote>lol, funny stuff.  A paladin coming to the ranger forums to tell a ranger to stop stirring up trouble.  Priceless.

[stryker268]

<cite>Gareorn wrote:</cite><blockquote>Terrius@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote>This is the second time the PVP changes have been posted like they will effect PvE, Stop stiring up trouble, PVP doesnt effect PvE. IF it's on the PVP board chances are it wont effect us normal PvE players.</blockquote>lol, funny stuff.  A paladin coming to the ranger forums to tell a ranger to stop stirring up trouble.  Priceless. </blockquote><p>   I agree. Gareorn.  And even funnier is the fact that his claim that PVP won't make a difference in PVE is incorrect.  Even if the damage modifications don't change  anything in PVE ( which i am not totally convinced will be the case) you still have the fact that one of our basic buff lines is going to change from in combat to out of combat run speed.  A change to the AA line isn't limited to just PVP as far as I know.  It may be a little less relevent but it is still a change that was brought about by PVP.</p><p>  And as for the "stirring up trouble", I am only trying to make as many people aware of the changes being made as possible.  More people with this information means that there will be more people to give feedback and state their opinions.</p>

[TerriBlades]

<p>I guess we should be glad the Dev Tracker is broken, if not for that, Im sure this thread would have been flooded by ppl that cant play, and dont understand how rangers work, doing nothing but cheering over nerfs. </p><p>Dev Stalkers FTMFL!</p>

[Terrius]

Yeah, I'm a Paladin, a Mystic, and Illusionist, a Fury, a Ranger and a Dirge. If you had station access and had taken the effort to search for my alts you'd already know that... anyways, Incombat runspeed wont effect my Ranger at all, not sure why it matters. I can already get away from anything with my 65% sprint, and this post started as a "the sky is falling!" thread, which always stirs up trouble. If it's going to effect PvE it will be on Test soon, but until it is a fact dont state that it's a nerf to PvE unless you are 100% sure.

[Terrius]

I didnt mean to be insulting in any form, but I hate threads that end with the class fighting amoungst itself and demeaning it's community, i'm sure this will effect some people, i'm just not sure how it'll effect me until it hits test.

[xandez]

its a known fact that PvP WILL affect PvE. yes, i know its stated (has been and will be) that it will NOT affect. However, this has NOT been the case and i will believe otherwise when the unbelievable happens (PvE unaffected by PvP) (it would not be so difficult to make it so that it would not affect, would it?) ++Xan

[Shadowdragoon]

<cite>TerriBlades wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I guess we should be glad the Dev Tracker is broken, if not for that, Im sure this thread would have been flooded by ppl that cant play, and dont understand how rangers work, doing nothing but cheering over nerfs. </p><p>Dev Stalkers FTMFL!</p></blockquote><p> And most who used devtracker probably uses the list of devs Targ posted in <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=365608" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=365608</a> to keep following the devs..</p><p><img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Merkad]

Just to add an example to Gareorn's post to Dextera (since I dislike it when no examples are given in this sort of context), Blackguard or Moorguard, I do forget which, once posted shortly after KoS launched and we received the proc change, that if Rangers were doing 50%+ damage from procs, then something was wrong...we were doing 50-60% damage from procs before then, and they did not even know (which was why so many complained, and we stayed in that heavily nerfed state for a decent while). A more recent example would be a Dev stating that auto attack does not make up the majority of our dps, probably true if you don't have a high end bow/ammo set up (think he had a wurm destroyer shortbow), but for the high end, it is not true. I have a RSB, so my auto attack damage percentage is usually in the mid to high 40s, and with a 9 second delay bow, I proc a lot more on auto attack than CAs. Not that I am saying Devs are clueless, but being a Dev does not make them omnipotent either. People are still just people at the end of the day. Merkades, 70th ranger. Siege, Najena.

[Gareorn]

Terrius@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote>Yeah, I'm a Paladin, a Mystic, and Illusionist, a Fury, a Ranger and a Dirge. If you had station access and had taken the effort to search for my alts you'd already know that... anyways, Incombat runspeed wont effect my Ranger at all, not sure why it matters. I can already get away from anything with my 65% sprint, and this post started as a "the sky is falling!" thread, which always stirs up trouble. If it's going to effect PvE it will be on Test soon, but until it is a fact dont state that it's a nerf to PvE unless you are 100% sure.</blockquote><p>Nah, I choose not to spend my money on station access.  Besides, it seems someone is always willing to tell me that if I had station access I'd know... Then they proceed to give me the information for free.</p><p>I too have many alts, as I'm sure most of us do.  I don't really consider it a pass to go to those forums and stir the pot.  But that's just me.  I didn't mean anything personal, I was just pointing out your post because I thought it was funny.  I believe I used the word "priceless."</p><p>I also want to point out, the OP did not make a "sky is falling" post.  It is consistent with what we already know.  We are constantly told "changes are being made to PvP only", and almost everytime that turns out to be false.  I'll believe it when I see it.</p>

[Rabbitoh]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>At the start of that thread in the first paragraph, I talk about the damage reductions in pvp across the board.  These mechanics already exist but we are now using modifiers based on level range.  So high level rangers will see lower ranged auto attack damage while fighting i<i>n PvP.  </i>In PvE fights damage calculations remain the same.  Nothing to see here other than some misunderstanding of the PvP balancing. </blockquote><p> Answer me this, How is a ranger suppose to keep range if our leg shot is getting nerfed and our root is getting nerfed. We will have no in combat run speed to get us range and if i am mistaken every class will sprint at 40%?</p><p>Please answer this simple question, as i have taken alot of time perfecting killing all classes. It seems SOE is bowing to whining forum people who complain about being killed by classes and refuse to use their wasted complaining energy in actually learning how to play their own class.</p><p>Take away burst dps from rangers and assasins and we offer nothing to a group in pvp. </p><p>Also what will happen to our AA lines and Cloak of flames buff that increases our in combat speed. You take away our in combat run speed, leave us with crappy melee attacks and rangers will be sitting there with no way to get range, being fresh meat for all classes to kill. Thank god for track and evac, at least i can look good on the battle field permanetly immuned at the revive points.</p><p>All i can see in the proposed GU 36 is the death of 2 fun classes to play, the ranger and the assasin. At least Brigs and swashies will still offer things to a group.</p><p>Molok, Ranger of Vigilante. Naggy server.</p>

[Kradun]

<cite>Rabbitoh wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>At the start of that thread in the first paragraph, I talk about the damage reductions in pvp across the board.  These mechanics already exist but we are now using modifiers based on level range.  So high level rangers will see lower ranged auto attack damage while fighting i<i>n PvP.  </i>In PvE fights damage calculations remain the same.  Nothing to see here other than some misunderstanding of the PvP balancing. </blockquote><p> Answer me this, How is a ranger suppose to keep range if our leg shot is getting nerfed and our root is getting nerfed. We will have no in combat run speed to get us range and if i am mistaken every class will sprint at 40%?</p><p>Please answer this simple question, as i have taken alot of time perfecting killing all classes. It seems SOE is bowing to whining forum people who complain about being killed by classes and refuse to use their wasted complaining energy in actually learning how to play their own class.</p><p>Take away burst dps from rangers and assasins and we offer nothing to a group in pvp. </p><p>Also what will happen to our AA lines and Cloak of flames buff that increases our in combat speed. You take away our in combat run speed, leave us with crappy melee attacks and rangers will be sitting there with no way to get range, being fresh meat for all classes to kill. Thank god for track and evac, at least i can look good on the battle field permanetly immuned at the revive points.</p><p>All i can see in the proposed GU 36 is the death of 2 fun classes to play, the ranger and the assasin. At least Brigs and swashies will still offer things to a group.</p><p>Molok, Ranger of Vigilante. Naggy server.</p></blockquote>Adjust.  You can't say you didn't think the game wouldn't ever change against your favor.  The brigands by far have it much worse than us. 

[pseudocide]

cry me a river and while your at it, delete this whine-fest of a thread

[Gareorn]

<p>After giving this some thought, I don't think this change should really affect PvE.  I was initially angry about the dev telling another class, that if he didn't feel rangers were nerfed enough, to just send feedback (paraphrasing obviously).  But, since auto attack damage is already scaled down for PvP, they should be able to make changes to it independent of PvE.</p><p>I'd also like to add that comments like "cry me a river" and "whine-fest" are totally irrelevent and unnecessary.</p>

[Wytie]

<cite>Gareorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I'd also like to add that comments like "cry me a river" and "whine-fest" are totally irrelevent and unnecessary.</p></blockquote><p> QFE</p><p>I wish everyone got this <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[pseudocide]

<cite>Gareorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>After giving this some thought, I don't think this change should really affect PvE.  I was initially angry about the dev telling another class, that if he didn't feel rangers were nerfed enough, to just send feedback (paraphrasing obviously).  But, since auto attack damage is already scaled down for PvP, they should be able to make changes to it independent of PvE.</p><p>I'd also like to add that comments like "cry me a river" and "whine-fest" are totally irrelevent and unnecessary.</p></blockquote> i'm sorry, but threads like this are irrelevent and unnecessary.  All i see from this thread is COMPLAINING, nothing constructive or insightful, just complaining, and most of it is complaining about a problem that never existed in the first place. 

[Salonkolya]

<p>"Incombat runspeed wont effect my Ranger at all, not sure why it matters."</p><p>Only way I've found so far to beat the hardest mobs i need for quests in restricted space is to use root/stun/knock-down and back up enough to get off a bow-shot before they close the gap. I hope the in-combat speed change won't effect that. </p>

[Rabbitoh]

<cite>Kradun wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rabbitoh wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>At the start of that thread in the first paragraph, I talk about the damage reductions in pvp across the board.  These mechanics already exist but we are now using modifiers based on level range.  So high level rangers will see lower ranged auto attack damage while fighting i<i>n PvP.  </i>In PvE fights damage calculations remain the same.  Nothing to see here other than some misunderstanding of the PvP balancing. </blockquote><p> Answer me this, How is a ranger suppose to keep range if our leg shot is getting nerfed and our root is getting nerfed. We will have no in combat run speed to get us range and if i am mistaken every class will sprint at 40%?</p><p>Please answer this simple question, as i have taken alot of time perfecting killing all classes. It seems SOE is bowing to whining forum people who complain about being killed by classes and refuse to use their wasted complaining energy in actually learning how to play their own class.</p><p>Take away burst dps from rangers and assasins and we offer nothing to a group in pvp. </p><p>Also what will happen to our AA lines and Cloak of flames buff that increases our in combat speed. You take away our in combat run speed, leave us with crappy melee attacks and rangers will be sitting there with no way to get range, being fresh meat for all classes to kill. Thank god for track and evac, at least i can look good on the battle field permanetly immuned at the revive points.</p><p>All i can see in the proposed GU 36 is the death of 2 fun classes to play, the ranger and the assasin. At least Brigs and swashies will still offer things to a group.</p><p>Molok, Ranger of Vigilante. Naggy server.</p></blockquote>Adjust.  You can't say you didn't think the game wouldn't ever change against your favor.  The brigands by far have it much worse than us.  </blockquote><p>I'll adjust alright, but getting range is tough enough in pvp without SOE nerfing the things that give us the ability to get and keep range.</p><p>I am simply wondering with all this nerfing, how will rangers go when range has been closed and we can't do the things we use to do to get it back?</p><p>This nerfing crap is to please the NOOB players out there that won't learn from there mistakes/won't learn there class properly. Every class can kill another if played properly (maybe except Guardian V  Ranger).</p><p>I don't complain about other classes that kill me such as a SK using PT or me getting stun locked by a brig becaused i sucked and ran out of freedom of mind. Only Noobs do this and then complain on the boards.</p><p>If our aa lines are getting effected then we should get something in return.</p>

[Rabbitoh]

Guerrilla@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>cry me a river and while your at it, delete this whine-fest of a thread </blockquote><p>Guerrilla, this reply is stupid.</p><p>People are expressing their concerns about their class getting nerfed and you post this crap.</p><p>You are 1 of the crappy rangers on the pvp servers that should be concerned. You need all the help you can get.</p><p>If you intend on replying with garage, please refrain.</p><p>Molok, Ranger of Vigilante. Naggy Server. </p>

[pseudocide]

hey molok, still bitter about losing that master eh? nerfs happen, i'm not worried, seems to me like you're the one scared of the big bad nerf bat also here is your garage you asked me to post VVV <img src="http://www.shawneestructures.com/garagepict/garage-20x24b.jpg" border="0">

[Kradun]

<cite>Rabbitoh wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kradun wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rabbitoh wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>At the start of that thread in the first paragraph, I talk about the damage reductions in pvp across the board.  These mechanics already exist but we are now using modifiers based on level range.  So high level rangers will see lower ranged auto attack damage while fighting i<i>n PvP.  </i>In PvE fights damage calculations remain the same.  Nothing to see here other than some misunderstanding of the PvP balancing. </blockquote><p> Answer me this, How is a ranger suppose to keep range if our leg shot is getting nerfed and our root is getting nerfed. We will have no in combat run speed to get us range and if i am mistaken every class will sprint at 40%?</p><p>Please answer this simple question, as i have taken alot of time perfecting killing all classes. It seems SOE is bowing to whining forum people who complain about being killed by classes and refuse to use their wasted complaining energy in actually learning how to play their own class.</p><p>Take away burst dps from rangers and assasins and we offer nothing to a group in pvp. </p><p>Also what will happen to our AA lines and Cloak of flames buff that increases our in combat speed. You take away our in combat run speed, leave us with crappy melee attacks and rangers will be sitting there with no way to get range, being fresh meat for all classes to kill. Thank god for track and evac, at least i can look good on the battle field permanetly immuned at the revive points.</p><p>All i can see in the proposed GU 36 is the death of 2 fun classes to play, the ranger and the assasin. At least Brigs and swashies will still offer things to a group.</p><p>Molok, Ranger of Vigilante. Naggy server.</p></blockquote>Adjust.  You can't say you didn't think the game wouldn't ever change against your favor.  The brigands by far have it much worse than us.  </blockquote><p>I'll adjust alright, but getting range is tough enough in pvp without SOE nerfing the things that give us the ability to get and keep range.</p><p>I am simply wondering with all this nerfing, how will rangers go when range has been closed and we can't do the things we use to do to get it back?</p><p>This nerfing crap is to please the NOOB players out there that won't learn from there mistakes/won't learn there class properly. Every class can kill another if played properly (maybe except Guardian V  Ranger).</p><p>I don't complain about other classes that kill me such as a SK using PT or me getting stun locked by a brig becaused i sucked and ran out of freedom of mind. Only Noobs do this and then complain on the boards.</p><p>If our aa lines are getting effected then we should get something in return.</p></blockquote>I bet I know a guardian that can kick the absolute [Removed for Content] out of you.  Guardians > Rangers in a duel.  Its all about itemization.  Also most guards are oriented towards group pvp and dont have the solo mindset. Boon is a god amongst guardians.  He bow auto attacks me for 2k !!!

[Rabbitoh]

<cite>Kradun wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rabbitoh wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kradun wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rabbitoh wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>At the start of that thread in the first paragraph, I talk about the damage reductions in pvp across the board.  These mechanics already exist but we are now using modifiers based on level range.  So high level rangers will see lower ranged auto attack damage while fighting i<i>n PvP.  </i>In PvE fights damage calculations remain the same.  Nothing to see here other than some misunderstanding of the PvP balancing. </blockquote><p> Answer me this, How is a ranger suppose to keep range if our leg shot is getting nerfed and our root is getting nerfed. We will have no in combat run speed to get us range and if i am mistaken every class will sprint at 40%?</p><p>Please answer this simple question, as i have taken alot of time perfecting killing all classes. It seems SOE is bowing to whining forum people who complain about being killed by classes and refuse to use their wasted complaining energy in actually learning how to play their own class.</p><p>Take away burst dps from rangers and assasins and we offer nothing to a group in pvp. </p><p>Also what will happen to our AA lines and Cloak of flames buff that increases our in combat speed. You take away our in combat run speed, leave us with crappy melee attacks and rangers will be sitting there with no way to get range, being fresh meat for all classes to kill. Thank god for track and evac, at least i can look good on the battle field permanetly immuned at the revive points.</p><p>All i can see in the proposed GU 36 is the death of 2 fun classes to play, the ranger and the assasin. At least Brigs and swashies will still offer things to a group.</p><p>Molok, Ranger of Vigilante. Naggy server.</p></blockquote>Adjust.  You can't say you didn't think the game wouldn't ever change against your favor.  The brigands by far have it much worse than us.  </blockquote><p>I'll adjust alright, but getting range is tough enough in pvp without SOE nerfing the things that give us the ability to get and keep range.</p><p>I am simply wondering with all this nerfing, how will rangers go when range has been closed and we can't do the things we use to do to get it back?</p><p>This nerfing crap is to please the NOOB players out there that won't learn from there mistakes/won't learn there class properly. Every class can kill another if played properly (maybe except Guardian V  Ranger).</p><p>I don't complain about other classes that kill me such as a SK using PT or me getting stun locked by a brig becaused i sucked and ran out of freedom of mind. Only Noobs do this and then complain on the boards.</p><p>If our aa lines are getting effected then we should get something in return.</p></blockquote>I bet I know a guardian that can kick the absolute [I cannot control my vocabulary] out of you.  Guardians > Rangers in a duel.  Its all about itemization.  Also most guards are oriented towards group pvp and dont have the solo mindset. Boon is a god amongst guardians.  He bow auto attacks me for 2k !!! </blockquote>/agree here. Boon is the best pvp guard that i have face. I have never fought him solo, but not much got through to his group when the groups i have been in, have fought his.

[Rabbitoh]

Guerrilla@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>hey molok, still bitter about losing that master eh? nerfs happen, i'm not worried, seems to me like you're the one scared of the big bad nerf bat also here is your garage you asked me to post VVV <img src="http://www.shawneestructures.com/garagepict/garage-20x24b.jpg" border="0"> </blockquote><p>LOL i like your come back, typos ftw.</p><p>I am abit concerned for pvp as a whole actually. The devs keep nerfing and i feel they are heading in the wrong direction. Going to put Molok on the test servers and see if i can find a warden or fury to kill. </p>

[LoreLady]

Auto attack is to much for just about every class, while I can see where the devs are coming from and agree with the direction they are going with this.. With that being said, it does make me worry about the state of these changes, our CA's do less than our counterparts so our auto attack does more.. Its a question of "how much is to much or to little", if we are to the point where we cannot make the top 3 in any situation theres a problem, but if we are the top parse all the time theres a problem. If they make us miss below 95% with the top arrows/gear, theres going to be a big problem with our dps because it will take us much longer to catchup to the quicker weapons. Currently top melee can auto attack for ~90% in most instanced zones, I think what they are trying to do is keep us from auto hitting 99% of the time. This is just speculation/opinion by my part..

[Rhym]

could everyone keep out Brigands out of the Rouge period has the same dps like ranger assassin [I cannot control my vocabulary] since of all dpsing scouts we brigs are pretty much down on the ladder yes 3k is also possible but not zonewide and u have to have 80% of the group buffing you Swash is somewhat ther department their dps is ridicoulous high considering what they bring to raid not as good as brig so there has to be a gap in dps between them letss 500dps i dont care the can parse 2000 zw thats ok i add with my debuffs around 5k overall raid dps and well swashs got nerfed no more double attack procs that will throttle their dps a way down Predators should be at top with prolly 1000dps or 1500 more than me on the zw if those ppl can play their class I managed outdps one Ranger in our guild on the zw but the guy had no [I cannot control my vocabulary] clue how to play and it was only by 300dps Swash was ridicoulous I remember it when Hurricane was at a 80% proc chance in groups u had to tank in raids u had to take it off since no one could control that dps anymore AND AS WE SPEAK NERF Illusionist DPS nerf AM and check out the agi line proper our Illu is outdpsing Rangers on the zw atm and we speak about 3500dps parses from a Utility class ? lets not talk about mezzing we know apart from buffing there is not much more left then dpsing for em on Raids ? but could anyone tell me why an Enchanter should be on top of the parse just prolly due to the lack of encounters where mezzzing is required ? give em the dps of a brigand and i think everyone is cool with it but average 2700+ parses that is a joke and needs to be looked into imo yes that needs a lot of buffing from others to hit that but an illu is always welcome in a mage group due to Synergism and their dps comes a lot from procs i got myself a 70 Illu and I find it myself ridicolous to hit that dps parses

[TerriBlades]

<p>You are most definately on crack when you say brigands are the worst of the bunch. Our brigand is pretty [Removed for Content] good, and generally second or third on the ZW for scouts. Typically we run 2 assassins, 1 swashy, 1 brigand and 1 ranger. I just have too much pride to let him have the top spot.</p><p>Last weekend in EH we did some class swapping around for the unicorn. My alt is a brigand (albiet poorly geared). So the asked me to play our main brigand, while he played his healer. Even with his jacked up hotbars (he had stuff everywhere, and on 10 different hotbars) I was able to parse 2.5k with his brigand on that fight. And he plays that toon better then I do.... So brigands arent as jacked up as you claim they are. </p><p>The only real problem is that top end guilds that have been giving their rangers everything... great group setup, tenderwood arrows, poison seeds of the tender and a rigid scale bow have been able to top 4k parses, and over 3k ZW. Its a little over the top, so a change is definately needed. </p><p>My only complaint is that they nerfed DT Ammo to be on par with our Summoned Ammo. Bump this back up to where it should be. Better then crafted, but lower then tenderwoods.</p><p>As for the agro control changes.. meh... yeah its going to be easier to peel, but I think if played properly, rangers will still be able to deal some decent damage without pulling agro. This is of course provided we can still hit mobs after the arrow re-revamp.<img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[xandez]

looks like every class is toned down some... so, maybe this isnt too bad after all... *shrug* ++Xan

[Luxun]

<cite>Gareorn wrote:</cite><blockquote>Terrius@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote>This is the second time the PVP changes have been posted like they will effect PvE, Stop stiring up trouble, PVP doesnt effect PvE. IF it's on the PVP board chances are it wont effect us normal PvE players.</blockquote>lol, funny stuff.  A paladin coming to the ranger forums to tell a ranger to stop stirring up trouble.  Priceless. </blockquote> ROFL !! omg your comment is also priceless.

[Gareorn]

<p>It's always nice when a Shadow Knight takes time out from whining on the PvP forums to come visit us Rangers.</p><p>Welcome aboard!<img src="/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Kaleyen]

Eh, nothing wrong with Paladins posting on Ranja forums!  Specially those PVP types... -Liluk Ferox, 70th Paladin of Den of Madness on Nagafen

[Luxun]

<cite>Gareorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>It's always nice when a Shadow Knight takes time out from whining on the PvP forums to come visit us Rangers.</p><p>Welcome aboard!<img src="/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote><p>lol wel lwe SKs have to keep an eye o nthe Paladins you know :p  btw just for the record all im all for the HT nerf if they lower resists in return. I liek the changes actually (think im one of the 5 SKs that are likign the changes lol). I feel sorry for the pallies though....they never get anything lol. </p>

[Hamervelder]

Meh.... I'm sure I'll get flack from all the other ranger players out there (yes, I have a ranger too, fully mastered), but ..... I think ranger dps <i>is</i> a bit high.  To me, it's about the damage I can dish out, vs the damage I can take.  Wizards and warlocks wear cloth armor.  They can take virtually no hits period.  Like rangers, they stand back and dish out dps.  However, rangers, unlike wizards and warlocks, <i>can</i> take a few hits.  It just never seemed balanced to me that I can be in a group and out-parse any caster I want, and take a hell of a beating.  In my view, the more damage you give, the less you should be able to take, and vice versa.  That's part of balancing the game, and, to be honest, I've never thought scouts should be T1 dps.  Ever.  I love my swashy and my ranger, but I think scouts across the board are just too lethal.

[Lev]

Uros@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote>Meh.... I'm sure I'll get flack from all the other ranger players out there (yes, I have a ranger too, fully mastered), but ..... I think ranger dps <i>is</i> a bit high.  To me, it's about the damage I can dish out, vs the damage I can take.  Wizards and warlocks wear cloth armor.  They can take virtually no hits period.  Like rangers, they stand back and dish out dps.  However, rangers, unlike wizards and warlocks, <i>can</i> take a few hits.  It just never seemed balanced to me that I can be in a group and out-parse any caster I want, and take a hell of a beating.  In my view, the more damage you give, the less you should be able to take, and vice versa.  That's part of balancing the game, and, to be honest, I've never thought scouts should be T1 dps.  Ever.  I love my swashy and my ranger, but I think scouts across the board are just too lethal. </blockquote> Yea sure that makes sense, it really does.. Except your forgetting about what really matters. We are talking high end here so raiding is what I will use for examples. for dps what matters more mitigation or resists? Resists hands down. Considering AEs is the most usual way dps will receive damage.  Now does chain wearers get a bonus to resist that mages don't? nope. So to what really matters, buffs and utility. Rangers have the least utility of all classes in the game. Therefore to give us a point of existence we have to be t1. Let me put up a small example to make it clearer. If as you say cloth should be t1 and chain should be t2 it would compare somewhat like this Mage t1 dps and utility Ranger t2 dps no utility Who would you pick for your raid force? I know this is a very superficial example, but I just wanted to make a simple point. If you think Cloth wearers should be t1 and chain wearers t2, then the utility aspects have to be completely changed around. Now I am not saying that this is a utterly nerf, Considering the numbers some rangers have been putting up I think they are probably right to change some things, however the problem with SOE is every time they try to fix something by giving small nerfs is they affect the whole spread of the class not just the ones changing the balance. I. e. the ranger class is full of gaps. So the hardcore raid rangers are parsing 4k+ 3k zonewide, while the ones still trying to progress is parsing 2k+, however around equally equiped rogues can parse 1800+ easily. So my fear is that this will affect the semi high end rangers too much and the top end not so much. Which often is the case with SOE nerfs.

[Tobann]

And dont forget us non raid Rangers. If I can parse 1800 in a pick up raid I jump for joy. Tis will drop me to tier 3 Im afraid. Buaf 70 Ranger Befallen

[Gareorn]

Levlo pointed to this, but I'd like reinforce his statement. Most cloth wearers have a better survivability rate on raids than chain wearers. Almost every item with +INT also carries +WIS. This is why mages and priests resists are so high. And since the mob doesn't physically attack anyone except for the MT - and the aggro stealers - survivability is determined by your resists. I'd love to raid with the resists our mage friends have. I'd also love to have the ability to use my ranged skills from inside of melee range like the mages can. But mostly, I'd like to have some of the utility that mages have. Now, I'm not going to go as far as to ask for these things, but I really get tired of the "cloth wearer needing to have more damage because they wear cloth" argument. I couldn't disagree more.

[Prandtl]

Uros@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote>Meh.... I'm sure I'll get flack from all the other ranger players out there (yes, I have a ranger too, fully mastered), but ..... I think ranger dps <i>is</i> a bit high.  To me, it's about the damage I can dish out, vs the damage I can take.  Wizards and warlocks wear cloth armor.  They can take virtually no hits period.  Like rangers, they stand back and dish out dps.  However, rangers, unlike wizards and warlocks, <i>can</i> take a few hits.  It just never seemed balanced to me that I can be in a group and out-parse any caster I want, and take a hell of a beating.  <b>In my view, the more damage you give, the less you should be able to take, and vice versa.</b>  That's part of balancing the game, and, to be honest, I've never thought scouts should be T1 dps.  Ever.  I love my swashy and my ranger, but I think scouts across the board are just too lethal. </blockquote><p>Ummm</p><p><b>No</b></p><p>By this logic the healers should be tanking </p>

[LoreLady]

I find it funny on all the caster classes that whine and complain because there are others who dps besides them.. And whats even funnier, all casters have a greater survivability in solo/raid instances, they do fall short in groups due to mitigation.. But each and every caster has a long duration stun to get something off them.. I understand the agro nerf, and even the ammo nerf to be closer to casters.. But casters whining because they want to be ontop of everyone else is just [apparently the word r-e-t-a-r-d-e-d is being bleeped now].

[Hamervelder]

I think it's funny how vehemently people who play rangers jump on anyone who says rangers might need some adjustment.  Raiding is only a small part of this game.  A very small part.  Like it or not, rangers simply do too much damage.  @ Levlo .... I'm not talking raiding.  That is a miniscule part of this game.  I'm talking overall.  I get so tired of hearing raid, raid, raid.  This game is much bigger and broader than raiding.  That said, you do have a valid point.  Thank you for your thoughtful post, rather than a sneered insult, as so many others tend to do.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Gareorn]

Uros@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote>I think it's funny how vehemently people who play rangers jump on anyone who says rangers might need some adjustment.  Raiding is only a small part of this game.  A very small part.  Like it or not, rangers simply do too much damage.  @ Levlo .... I'm not talking raiding.  That is a miniscule part of this game.  I'm talking overall.  I get so tired of hearing raid, raid, raid.  This game is much bigger and broader than raiding.  That said, you do have a valid point.  Thank you for your thoughtful post, rather than a sneered insult, as so many others tend to do.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote><p>Your insults are too thinly veiled.  Aren't you the one complaining on the Shadownight forums about how easily Rangers "demolish" SK's on PvP.  And then go on to state that you are thankful the GU36 nerfs won't affect you too much?  Thanks for coming by and offering to help. </p>

[Hamervelder]

<cite>Gareorn wrote:</cite><blockquote>Uros@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote>I think it's funny how vehemently people who play rangers jump on anyone who says rangers might need some adjustment.  Raiding is only a small part of this game.  A very small part.  Like it or not, rangers simply do too much damage.  @ Levlo .... I'm not talking raiding.  That is a miniscule part of this game.  I'm talking overall.  I get so tired of hearing raid, raid, raid.  This game is much bigger and broader than raiding.  That said, you do have a valid point.  Thank you for your thoughtful post, rather than a sneered insult, as so many others tend to do.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote><p>Your insults are too thinly veiled.  Aren't you the one complaining on the Shadownight forums about how easily Rangers "demolish" SK's on PvP.  And then go on to state that you are thankful the GU36 nerfs won't affect you too much?  Thanks for coming by and offering to help. </p></blockquote> <b>EDIT </b>Nevermind. You aren't going to listen. If I wanted to insult someone, I'd make it all to clear.  Your sarcasm has been noted.  Do you feel better now?

[gfx]

I think it's PvP only .. Oh and you guys who say you hate PvP.. Quit the game already. Don't be so carebearish~

[rvbarton]

<p>Enough already!</p><p>Wait and see what comes out in the patch before you post anymore about rangers.  This forum is so overladen with these whiners, whining about what might happen, it's ridiculous!</p>

[Prandtl]

Vinasaar@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>I think it's PvP only .. Oh and you guys who say you hate PvP.. Quit the game already. Don't be so carebearish~</blockquote> This has to be one of the most annoying posts I've ever read on the ranger forums.  Vinasaar, you may know a little bit about the class, but don't start thumping your chest just because you play on a PvP server.  Some people just don't like the gank/grief fest

[Kaleyen]

Since this somehow got side noted into PVP I'd like to point this out. Any Crusader that can't kill a Ranger in PVP is a bloobie. -Liluk Ferox, 70th Paladin of Nagafen Now back to the point of it all. Someone mentioned this higher up and I would like to point this out since everytime I try to talk about it on the Testing Forums some mage comes in and twists my words. The Rangers who are doing 4k+ zone wide when using Tenderwood + Rigid Scale + Ideal setup were (as I thought it from reading different forums) broken.  Now these posts that stated this never mentioned what the 2nd top parser was, but w/e. This nerf to ammo will effect those doing 4k+ zone wide, but what about us who are doing 2k+ zone wide who are right along side of the summoners and sorcerers?  It will hit us the hardest I believe, and I know that they "revamped" AAs for the casters that will lower their overall DPS, but we're not talking about an AA change here.  We're talking about the base of our class...auto attack. Will be interesting to see where we fall after all of this. -Kuian, 70th Ranger of LDL

[gfx]

<cite>Prandtl wrote:</cite><blockquote>Vinasaar@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>I think it's PvP only .. Oh and you guys who say you hate PvP.. Quit the game already. Don't be so carebearish~</blockquote> This has to be one of the most annoying posts I've ever read on the ranger forums.  Vinasaar, you may know a little bit about the class, but don't start thumping your chest just because you play on a PvP server.  Some people just don't like the gank/grief fest</blockquote>When you say "little" do you literally mean that I know little about my class, or that I actually might know something about my class ? There's more to PvP than gank/griefing.. You shouldn't even open your mouth about it unless you've actually had a decent level character on a decent populated PvP server bro...

[LoreLady]

To the person who is asking us to stop talking raid parses and raiding.. Raiding is the best way to test out dps, you fight the same mob over and over again under a longer time period making parses more accurate than group mobs. Group mobs 3 shots and its dead, doesnt make it very accurate. Also, Gaeron isent insulting you - he is saying other aspects of the game effect this game like PVP and we are getting nerfed because of it. As for the person who was talking about the 4k parses.. Let me tell you so do assassins, necro's wizards, warlocks, even chantys hit 3k+ on these raids. The damage portion between casters/melee is balanced (cept for necro's/swashy's - they are all newbs in my books), the agro reduction between a scout/caster isent - and I can agree with sony if every scout takes a hate nerf.