In Defence of the Soul Shard

[Gnae]

I will firstly say I come from an Everquest 1 background and perhaps it has shaped the way I view MMORPG's.  After leaving EQ1 I drifted around, dabbled in EQ2 but didn't like having to quest constantly and felt the groups were hard to get and the game allot of stuff to learn.  But several ideas they put into the game as fixes to EQ1 were right on and should remain in the game. In Everquest 1 when you died you would have to retrieve your corps.  And while this did add that element of danger and fear it also could take awhile.  And typically and the community changed a bit people didn't want to wait around, so they would basically leave the group, log out and come for the corps another day.  Made wipes really bad. So SOE comes up with the idea of the soul shard.  This was basically a penalty of reduced stats, large EXP hit and 10% off your armor.  You see but that was brilliant!  Because the person could still fight, they could still get back to their shard, or could wait for the effects to wear off.  There was never a reason why you couldn't continue the group.  Yeah it wasn't as powerful without retrieving the shard, but it made death HURT without a huge downtime. Frankly if the shard was returned, death would be much more meaningful, and I believe it was the perfect balance. Please return the shard!

[Zard]

While we're probably in the minority, I liked shards too. Heck, I even liked group XP debt except when some bozo would die halfway across the zone, sometimes multiple times, everyone would share the debt and then he would eventually disband out of frustration. If they restricted the distance you would need to be for XP debt to be the same as <i>earning</i> XP I would have liked it better. Of course, in those days, XP debt actually meant something. . .  <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Fasci]

I started playing after they lost the shard, but I still think it's a good idea. Death, imo, should be significant. I die a LOT, but all I do is pay the mender a few coins & go on my merry way. Oops. I died again. So what? The new system lets me take on foes way beyond my skill and experience with little to no consequence. I suppose that's good or bad depending on your playstyle. But I wouldn't complain if they brought back the shard. (Don't know how I feel about the corpse run. That just seems... icky. <i>Iew. Look at all the flies,</i> lol!!)

[kenm]

Honestly I'd prefer corpse runs, but I felt the shard was a nice compromise for those that disliked them.   Death being completely meaningless is lame, I'd love to see the shard make a return.

[Iseabeil]

<p>I never had any real issue with shards back in the day, might be cause I first played and illusionist and then later a swashie so getting them back was never an issue for me except for my frequent betrayals (I did over 20 of them before the original system was changed, whoever came up with idea ratongas had to start evil, I wanted to beat so badly.. lol). Especially with my swashie it wasnt so bad, groups would dare venture deeper with me along as invis was rare and my ability to invis the group ensured we'd be able to get back with minimal issues. Id even get tells from people asking if I could help them get their shard, and when I was able to I usually did. With everyone able to invis today, the amount of mobs that see invis has raised by huge amount, so whereas a group wipe back then meant ye still had the ability to get the shard back even if ye were running out of time. If you have 1 hour to play today, and 45 mins into the dungeon your group wipes, you have very low chances of getting back in time as you will have to fight all those mobs that took 45 minutes to kill, but all the group will be significantly weaker as they are all low on a shard, thus ye might as well give it up in many cases (talking of  contested dungeons, the instanced never were that much issue), and if it was a place that was hard for the group to start with.. too bad, aint gonna be easier now. That aside, SoE might one day add in some additional death penalty, but I doubt shards will ever make a return as the main reason they were removed was the weight they put on CS. People think they are slow on fighting plat spams etc today, imagine if they had to go back to spend massive time on recovering unrecoverable shards for players.</p>

[Dasein]

If your character requires some external penalty upon dying to make that death 'meaningful', then the character's life itself was worthless. The penalty for dying should be equal to the loss of whatever one would have acomplished by remaining alive. There is no need for any greater penalty.

[Emperors]

I liked shards as well.  Added that extra meaning to death, but wasn't over the top like naked corpse runs were in EQLive.  The thing I don't get is just before SOE removed shards they created an NPC that would summon your shard to you for a small fee.  This was a great idea and would be beneficial to many people who didn't have time to get their shards back the normal way.  But, a month after this NPC was introduced they did away with the whole shard system all together.

[Skua]

NO thank you <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Giral]

<p>pulls the flame retardant suit out /equip's</p><p>whip's up some /Popcorn </p><p>/sit's back </p><p><img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>+1 for shards and group debt <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Rythen16]

<p>I would also like to see the shards come back. Like the OP stated, it is the best compromise between a corpse run and no death penalty at all (kind of like the current system). You can keep fighting without getting your shard but you can get it back to get your stats back.</p>

[YeldarbSpiritbla]

<p>Truly, as long as I don't lose a level (or major xp), or become so gimped I can't play, I don't care what the death penalty is. I mean, isn't the main focus of the game to NOT die, LOL. Most people complain about ANY penalty as if they go out of their way to die. It should discourage bad players IMO. If they're not cut out for playing a game like this, then find another game, please. <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I realize stuff happens, and we actually had one guy in the guild who would count his playtime in body bags, LOL, but if you die so much that any kind of a death penalty, besides the extremes, is a bother, then maybe you're playing the wrong game.</p><p>I do think the current death penalty is a joke. Many people use death as a means of travel. Seriously. Port or death, no difference. </p>

[StormCinder]

<p>Want a meaningful death?  Play "Ironman."  If your toon dies, delete it and start a new one.</p><p>The thread is funny in that you could necro some threads bursting with flames about how lame shards were back "in the day."  It seems the only thing you can always count on people wanting in this world is change.</p><p>SC</p><p>PS  My vote is for shards to come back.  Death is simply a secondary method of transportation at this time.</p>

[Birn]

No thank you, I already spent too many hours in the past helping retriving guildies shards everywhere and waiting for GM's because the shard is nowhere to be found.

[Kri]

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote>If your character requires some external penalty upon dying to make that death 'meaningful', then the character's life itself was worthless. The penalty for dying should be equal to the loss of whatever one would have acomplished by remaining alive. There is no need for any greater penalty. </blockquote>Fully agree! Death means failure, thus making it something I want to avoid. Absolutely no need for any external penalty.

[Cathars]

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote>If your character requires some external penalty upon dying to make that death 'meaningful', then the character's life itself was worthless. The penalty for dying should be equal to the loss of whatever one would have acomplished by remaining alive. There is no need for any greater penalty. </blockquote> Thats pretty much what one of those old community manager guys said on the subject a while back.  Your failure to beat the encounter, or whatever you were trying to do, is the penalty.

[LordPazuzu]

<cite>Catharsis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote>If your character requires some external penalty upon dying to make that death 'meaningful', then the character's life itself was worthless. The penalty for dying should be equal to the loss of whatever one would have acomplished by remaining alive. There is no need for any greater penalty. </blockquote> Thats pretty much what one of those old community manager guys said on the subject a while back.  Your failure to beat the encounter, or whatever you were trying to do, is the penalty.</blockquote><p> I laughed at that then and I laught at it now.  Death is nearly painless now.  You just pop right back up and try again.  It doesn't even boot you out and cause you to fail the instance anymore.  You're free to try again and again and again.  The failure means nothing because there is no penalty for failing other than you get to try again as much as you want until you get it right or it's time to log off.</p><p>Those who say that failure is it's own penalty must not handle failure very well.  Life is full of failure and failure comes with consequences...  Except apparently, in EverQuest 2.</p><p> I say bring back the Soul Shard.</p>

[ShadowMunkie]

I have to agree, I played back before they took out the shards(on another account) and it was always fun trying to get back your shard from the middle of the room in Blackburrow. However since they took those out, everything in the game is becoming more and more like WoW, a 2yr old could play this game now, and beat an epic. This game is by far 3x easier than it was back whenever it was first released. *thumbs up on making this game harder*

[Sunlei]

<p> I really don't care one way or another, even with shards one can logoff that character and play another. The shards (no matter how many) and debt decayed away. Was always a 'taxi ride', the death taxi.</p><p> Only thing sucked was dieing 10 times and armor fell off and couldn't even move off revive spot. That Feerott beach revive spot was a [Removed for Content] at lvl 9 with deathloops and not able to move.</p><p> I remember when as others posted above, soe said the shards took a lot of customer service time. They also mentioned people would logoff and quit the game over multi lost shards.  Me it was meh I have 10 shards out there, I better craft now or play a different character, with many people it was call the GM or quit the game. </p><p>For 'fun' I'd prefer more of a reward system rather than a punishment system in games. Example, if a raid doesn't have any deaths there is some kind of special drop/bonus.</p>

[tass]

lol I didn't mind going and running for my shard in vanguard because it was a harder game I expected the running and the xp loss and shards and such. Here however its been to long since any type of penalty was made for dieing or anything. The player base cant handle it. Hell alot of the original people who beta'd the game and were here from the start have long since gone around the 50's cap era. Alot of people here now are old gamers or world of crack craft rehabs.

[Obviousman]

<p><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: andale mono,times">I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with this call for the return of soul shards. While yes, death has become trivialized, there should be no outstanding penalties for losing a rough encounter or simply being unlucky due to lag or random pops. When we had the traditional shards in play, I would die over and over trying to retrieve a shard and I'd get so disgusted that I'd simply wait for the shards to dissolve away. Nothing will ruin a game player's time more than venturing far into a dungeon only to get slammed by a bad encounter, then spending twice as much time fighting the mobs you already completed to get your shard, losing your battles due to reduced stats caused by simply dying, and throwing your hands up in disgust. People just won't tolerate the constant grind over their shards.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: andale mono,times">Now, if you really want something to be done about the subject of death, lets twink the idea of the soul shard. The shard is a piece of your soul that is left after you die. Therefore, instead of having to suffer the permanent stat loss, just let the soulless characters be undesirable. That means no repairing, no questgiving, no NPC interation. Furthermore, there should be one shard present at all times, meaning that if you die while retrieving your last corpse, you should pick the shard to be somewhere that's more convenient. Therefore, no stat penalties, no constant gridning through to get the corpse, they can get it at their leisure, but if they want to get that new quest, they better get that spirit lying around.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: andale mono,times">Then again, they can just keep it the way it is. I personally won't complain.</span></p>

[Decad]

<cite>Birn wrote:</cite><blockquote>...waiting for GM's because the shard is nowhere to be found. </blockquote> For all that we know, could quite possibly be one of the main reasons shards ended up being removed from the game. I do remember that happening to me on a handful of occassions.

[Twoboxer2]

<p>Having started my play in EQ1, I thought the death penalties in EQ2 were a joke. All of them. Played Vanguard - got a more substantial death penalty - didn't like it so much any more.</p><p>I'd like to see a larger experience debt I suppose, but other than that I guess I've come around a bit. Debt, equipment repair cost, and a limit on how many times you can take a death before being naked seems enough to punish extreme abuse of deaths. Yeah, I can also accept that death is a 1g port, or free if you have 2 minutes to spare.</p><p>So if something's gotta change, I guess I'd rather see the old penalties for falling re-instated to restore a little respect for the environment. </p><p>Oh, and very little in the 0-to-70 game prepares people for the raiding game. That could be changed as well.</p><p>But I'm OK with the death penalty now. Even an old dog can learn new tricks I suppose.</p>

[Hon]

<p>Ironically, I also liked the soul shard idea. You should drop a shard that if you return to you get most of your XP back.  You still lose some (like now), but not much.  If you didn't get your shard... big XP hit.  Sounds good to me.  I also feel it makes you want to avoid death instead of being so casual about it.  Death should be avoided.  Common sense tells me so.</p><p>I do NOT like a naked corpse run and am glad its gone.  </p>

[Schattenquell]

Talking about punishment: I feel punished enough by having to recast about a dozen buffs (playing a warden <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) But, in fact, I also liked the soul shards, combined with the npc helping you to get it back if it was in a really dangerous place...

[kanidana]

I don't really get all of this about death penalties. Even in off-line games I play, I avoid death. In Oblivion, even if I just made a save game, it's a habit for me to run from the encounter if I'm getting near death. I get a slight adrenaline rush from it even. These games are pay to play, and there are already enough time sinks in the game, without having to worry about corpse runs or shard runs.

[tass]

eh I didn't care either way. In vanguard I usually just took the small xp hit and repair hit and summoned the corpse to the alter. You want to talk about some serious penalties? In ffxi if you die theres no shard to get but you just lost about 3 or 400 xp. And let me tell you its not exactly easy to just make 400 xp. And once u run out of xp you de level and god does that truly suck.

[Novusod]

To all those who like death penalties so much here is an idea for you. Call me old fashioned but I remember when death in a video game meant you had to cough up another quarter to keep playing. So how about for every time you die SoE adds a little fee to your monthly bill. That will teach you not to die so much and satisfy all the masochists here. /sarcasm

[Krelor]

<cite>tass wrote:</cite><blockquote>eh I didn't care either way. In vanguard I usually just took the small xp hit and repair hit and summoned the corpse to the alter. You want to talk about some serious penalties? In ffxi if you die theres no shard to get but you just lost about 3 or 400 xp. And let me tell you its not exactly easy to just make 400 xp. And once u run out of xp you de level and god does that truly suck. </blockquote><p> Interesting idea. Never played that game although I've always been a fan of it. De-levelling here eh.. hmm. I can see all the cries of "No way Jose!" already. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Having played a while, I recall shards too. I liked em. The shard npc was a good idea - a good compromise. </p><p>However, I also recall numerous complaints back in the day sometime after shards were removed. People complaining (like a lot in this thread, including me) of the removal of shards. </p><p>One dev response in particular was quite key but I guess with everything else - got placed on the back burner or quietly brushed under the carpet. That was where it was said that this current system was <i>temporary</i> and that until a more meaningful system was worked out and put in place - this temporary solution would remain.</p>

[Eugam]

<cite>Catharsis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote>If your character requires some external penalty upon dying to make that death 'meaningful', then the character's life itself was worthless. The penalty for dying should be equal to the loss of whatever one would have acomplished by remaining alive. There is no need for any greater penalty. </blockquote> Thats pretty much what one of those old community manager guys said on the subject a while back.  Your failure to beat the encounter, or whatever you were trying to do, is the penalty.</blockquote>I agree with that. I dont want and i dont need shards or corpseruns to motivate myself. They removed them pre KoS and design went on for two expansions and one adventurepack with no shards/runs in mind. Let me see... there are three posibilities where i die (except raids). The 1st is between level 1 and 20, the 2nd is Mistmore Castle and the 3rd is Nizara. If you die somewhere else you either tried to do something silly (soloing way ahead of you or doing acadechism at level 5<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> or you or your team failed badly. I would agree on extreme penalty for rushers and imba players, but i cant think of any solution how software could be able to recognize them <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Otherwise... no we dont need that silly timesink ever again.

[FlamingDuck]

<p>Bringing back soul shard is the worst possible idea ever to be frank. They were a really, really bad design and they were smart to get rid of it. The death penalty is fine as it is, with its minor exp penalty and 10% durability hit. It adds up anyway if you are stupid and repeating the same mistakes (like me ha.)</p>

[Skua]

<cite>Krelor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>tass wrote:</cite><blockquote>eh I didn't care either way. In vanguard I usually just took the small xp hit and repair hit and summoned the corpse to the alter. You want to talk about some serious penalties? In ffxi if you die theres no shard to get but you just lost about 3 or 400 xp. And let me tell you its not exactly easy to just make 400 xp. And once u run out of xp you de level and god does that truly suck. </blockquote><p> Interesting idea. Never played that game although I've always been a fan of it. De-levelling here eh.. hmm. I can see all the cries of "No way Jose!" already. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Having played a while, I recall shards too. I liked em. The shard npc was a good idea - a good compromise. </p><p>However, I also recall numerous complaints back in the day sometime after shards were removed. People complaining (like a lot in this thread, including me) of the removal of shards. </p><p>One dev response in particular was quite key but I guess with everything else - got placed on the back burner or quietly brushed under the carpet. That was where it was said that this current system was <i>temporary</i> and that until a more meaningful system was worked out and put in place - this temporary solution would remain.</p></blockquote>in FFXi u lose 10% of xp needed to lvl cap at 2400 LVL - TNL - TOTAL XP - LOSS XP 10-  2,600 - 13,350   -    260 74 - 44,000 793,550  -  2,400 now in xp groups (since u cant solo if u arent beastmaster) , u get around 150 xp /mob .....1 min- 2 min each mob...... oh and endgame is FUN de-leveling and needing to get groups (can take 4h to get a group + at least 2 hours to xp (30 min to get some camps) else no bother lfg) thats way i hate de-leveling i cant enjoy endgame in ffxi w/o getting frustrated... and THX but i play to have fun , enjoy the game , risk vs reward? blahblahblah put servers with shards , serves w/o shards ?

[KunamitsuUK]

<p>I do think that the game needs more of a death penalty, Im not accustom to shards but reading about them I can honestly say I would not care for them if they were in the game, I died a lot when I first started EQ2 and I think if the shards were around they would have put me off (Only been playing just over 16 months and a break)</p><p>I think an XP hit would be good, it will stop players dying so that they dont have to run back to an entrance etc and would make for more careful gameplay.</p>

[Silverpaws]

I would only want shards in if you could /corpse them.

[phoenixshard]

<cite>LordPazuzu wrote:</cite><blockquote><p> I laughed at that then and I laught at it now.  Death is nearly painless now.  You just pop right back up and try again.  It doesn't even boot you out and cause you to fail the instance anymore.  You're free to try again and again and again.  The failure means nothing because there is no penalty for failing other than you get to try again as much as you want until you get it right or it's time to log off.</p> <p>Those who say that failure is it's own penalty must not handle failure very well.  Life is full of failure and failure comes with consequences...  Except apparently, in EverQuest 2.</p><p> I say bring back the Soul Shard.</p></blockquote>Some of the zones it does boot you out of.  Fallen Gate, Wailing Caves, and Shattered Vale come immediately to mind for that.  To me, the death penalty you have now is good enough.  There shouldn't be a high penalty for death in a game that you play for relaxation.  You are right that in llfe you will experience failures and sometimes those failures can have high consequences, but I play EQ2 to get away from the everyday life for a little while and would rather keep the heavy penalties for toon death out.

[g0thiC_iCe_cReaM]

Fasci@Butcherblock wrote: <blockquote>all I do is pay the mender a few coins & go on my merry way. </blockquote> lol wish my repair bills were just a few coins, i'm averaging 15-25g a repair visit

[Novusod]

<cite>Eugam wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree with that. I dont want and i dont need shards or corpseruns to motivate myself. They removed them pre KoS and design went on for two expansions and one adventurepack with no shards/runs in mind. Let me see... there are three posibilities where i die (except raids). The 1st is between level 1 and 20, the 2nd is Mistmore Castle and the 3rd is Nizara. If you die somewhere else you either tried to do something silly (soloing way ahead of you or doing acadechism at level 5<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> or you or your team failed badly. I would agree on extreme penalty for rushers and imba players, but i cant think of any solution how software could be able to recognize them <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Otherwise... no we dont need that silly timesink ever again. </blockquote>Actually there is more to it than that. Come to the a PvP server and I will show you what death is about. How about getting steam rolled while you are harvesting or fighting a green down arrow. The real reason they removed Soul Shards was for the PvP servers. Death penalties had to be removed to prevent griefing on PvP where death is unavoidable.

[Velsha]

No thanks. I don't want to be "punished" for playing a game.

[Andok]

I imagine that a lot of people would be far less willing to group with strangers if the death penalty was increased too much.    In EQ1, the death penalty was pretty steep, so my small group of friends never invited strangers into our groups because the possibility of that person being an idiot and causing a wipe deep in a dungeon was just too risky.  Now I am far more willing to group with strangers because the worse they can do to me is give me a very small XP debt and cost me a few coins in repairs.

[Betatroll]

I like it as it is now. I was never a fan of CR. If the hardcore can't be appeased without ticking off the casual and vice versa then they'll have to compromise. Like it is now. Some XP, durability, kicked out of some zones. The game is a lot more fun than it was when I first played it so I think in general things are looking up for EQ2.

[interstellarmatter]

<p>The shard issue wasn't just about playability in-game.  It was a partly a finance decision.  Lost shards was one of the #1 CS issues at the time.  By cutting out shards, they reduced their CS ticket by a fairly large amount.  Less CS tickets = less GMs needed.</p>

[xguild]

<p>I might get accused of being old, but I had already been a gamer for well over 10 years when Ultima Online was released and since those early days of MMO's the penalty for death has been slowly declining, meaning becoming less and less as time went on and new MMO's were released.  With each new MMO and new generation of MMO's the death penalty was always a cause for a lot of discussion and usually heated debates.  Strangly enough most communities were very sadistic about their request asking for harsher penalties while the developers seemed to be going the opposite way.  While this might seem like the developers were [Removed for Content] against the wind sort of speak, the fact remained and was always a ignored fact on the forums that the majority of the players never came to the forums and the vocal minority is the ones doing all the posting.</p><p>Personaly I have to disagree with just about every post here (as usual) and although I can tell I represent the minority on this forum, I know I represent the majority in game which neither posts here or even bothers reading these posts which is exactly why the state of death penalties has been approached the way it has by developers.  Their research extends into the game far more then the forums.</p><p>I find that there really is no purpose to death penalties.  I mean spending an hour trying to chase down your corpse, or taking an XP penalty doesn't improve the enjoyment of the game for me, nor is it fun, what it does is irritate me and distrupts my gaming session in a very negative way.  Especially when you consider that death is usually the result of a mistake I make, or a fellow group member made which in on itself is a sort of mental hardship.  Even without a death penalty I would and I think most people would try to avoid death as there is nothing to gain from it.  However being penalized for a mistake is sort of like going to the movies and because you sat in the wrong seat you are forced to miss 20 minutes of the movie by the attendents.  Its sadistic and quite unescessary.</p><p>MMO's are about adventuring around doing quests, exploring the world and chit chatting with friends.  Its a social game that doesn't need penalties to be fun or challenging.  Taking down an epic creature isn't less or more challenging if failing to kill him means that there is a stiff penalty just for the attempt, it just makes it less likely people will attempt it, meaning that most people will avoid dangerous and interesting encounters like that in fear of the penalty.  That to me is neither enticing, interesting, fun or challenging. </p><p>I think death penalties are counter productive and add nothing to the enjoyment of the game, I could do without them completetly.</p>

[tass]

I could care less about deaths. In fact now I see a death as a quick way to get back to the docks with about .5% xp debt. What I always cared about was the game play being challenging. Of course unless ur raiding its not. So the point is already lost.

[g0thiC_iCe_cReaM]

<cite>xguild wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I find that there really is no purpose to death penalties.  I mean spending an hour trying to chase down your corpse, or taking an XP penalty doesn't improve the enjoyment of the game for me, nor is it fun, what it does is irritate me and distrupts my gaming session in a very negative way.  Especially when you consider that death is usually the result of a mistake I make, or a fellow group member made which in on itself is a sort of mental hardship.  Even without a death penalty I would and I think most people would try to avoid death as there is nothing to gain from it.  However being penalized for a mistake is sort of like going to the movies and because you sat in the wrong seat you are forced to miss 20 minutes of the movie by the attendents.  Its sadistic and quite unescessary.</p></blockquote><p> i believe this is the reasoning that was given behind removing shards...while it was fun, i think my repair bills are enough punishment now, especially on the rare occasion where i go through 2 repair kits and my regular gear as well as most of my backup gear...(that's a lot of deaths <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)  so i would have to agree, the shards can stay out as far as i'm concerned</p>

[Twoboxer2]

<cite>xguild wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I find that there really is no purpose to death penalties.</p></blockquote><p> I respectfully disagree. One of the things that makes these games different than Super Paper Mario is the penalties imposed. Without falling damage and a penalty greater-than-backing-up-to-your-last-save-point, there is just no respect for - and little need for - the environment.</p><p>But not every game needs one hour corpse runs, either.</p><p>There just needs to be more reason than each player's personal incentive to avoid death.</p>

[xguild]

<cite>Twoboxer2 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>xguild wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I find that there really is no purpose to death penalties.</p></blockquote><p> I respectfully disagree. One of the things that makes these games different than Super Paper Mario is the penalties imposed. Without falling damage and a penalty greater-than-backing-up-to-your-last-save-point, there is just no respect for - and little need for - the environment.</p><p>But not every game needs one hour corpse runs, either.</p><p>There just needs to be more reason than each player's personal incentive to avoid death.</p></blockquote><p>I believe what makes these games challenging and different is the continuity of the game and the fact that its played in a sort of team spirit (guilds, partners etc..).  The challenge isn't any lesser or greater if you impose a stiff penalty for failing.  Ultimatly things like falling damage and gear ware aren't there so much as a penalty as for continuity.  You want to imerse yourself in the enviroment and the game world and to that there has to be a basis for reality.  Shards and XP debt do not contribute to that in anyway, in fact shards for example had the opposite affect.</p><p>I'm not dead set against death penalties, but death penalties shouldn't be so severe as to make me want to avoid challenging and interesting aspects of the game, which stiff XP penalties and corpse chase style penalties most definitly did.  These days when I run up on a creature or quest that I'm not 100% sure I can do, I get excited and eager to try.  When shards existed, I went well out of my way to avoid these sort of "dangerous" encounters and so perhaps you are right in saying that I respected "death".  But I respected it in a negative way, I feared it and wanted to avoid it because it was a big setup back and so avoiding death became the game, instead of the fun and interesting quests and encounters which I should be excited and nervous about.  I try to avoid death with the same effort prior to and after the shards were removed and the XP death or Item ware hasn't increased or decreased my commitment to avoid death.  However the absence of things like Shard has allowed me to recover from death quicker and get back to the heart and soul of the game, which is in fact questing and adventuring with friends, rather then having to do some tedious and quite boring task of sitting around waiting for an energy bar to increase or trying to find a way to recover a corpse in a place I just died.</p>

[Logan]

<p>Dead is dead, no need to slap me in the face by making me spend more time recovering my "shard."This is a game I play for fun.</p><p>Dead is failure, i have to try again anyways not just start where I left off.</p><p>Playing should be more meaningful than death. </p><p>Heavy debt penalties and having to recover a shard never made anyone I ever played with more cautious and it certainly did not increase enjoyment or increase my sense of accomplishment. It just meant less time playing and more time doing nothing.</p><p>The removal of the shard was one of the best things done to the game.</p><p>Rhys 70 assassin, Kithicor</p>

[Giral]

<p>was death fun with shards ?  Nope , but it is death after all </p><p>did the game have more depth with shards ? Imo yes , Death was an integral part of the game , it made your failers suck all that much more , but when you did Gain a level, when you did finaly clear a zone with no deaths, when you did finaly kill a name that had killed you in numerous groups it all just seemed 100 times more exciting,nothing like finaly getting thru a hard earned victory  </p><p>did shards help the community ? Imo Yes , i was in many groups alone just to go retrieve shards, i cleaer a path for many players to let them get there shards,  i myself was helped many times in getting my shards,    Players Yelling help i rushed to the aid of many people being hunted by a mob ; ) now players yell help and mobs give chase a few feet and then go away and if you do die OMG OMG you lose a few minutes of your o so precious time OMG OMG i'll never have that 1 minute back in my entire life i HATE you SOE your the devil.....</p><p>now you need other players help for ?   what ?  you need to interact for what ? o yeah a bunch of baby arguements in lvl chat is about all : ) </p><p> (atleast with the access quest to go to EL,Zek,LS,EF you had community interaction, those have been removed as well) </p><p>Death wasnt ment to be FUN you have the Rest of the entire game for FUN ; )  hey you got your arm hacked off , partialy scalped , you have acid burns on 90 % of your body , now POP back up and run back 10 feet away and try again Haha hahaha atleast the thought of that is   FUN-ny </p><p>/makes more popcorn  ; )  +2 for shards/exploss/deleveling/group debt </p>

[selch]

I thought horses really extinct beating all of them to dead bodies.

[Twoboxer2]

<cite>xguild wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I'm not dead set against death penalties, but death penalties shouldn't be so severe as to make me want to avoid challenging and interesting aspects of the game, which stiff XP penalties and corpse chase style penalties most definitly did.</p></blockquote><p> Ah! As it turns out, we aren't that far apart - if at all. I didn't always, but today I agree with what you say above. </p><p>On the other end of the spectrum, death can't be meaningless. If death *is* meaningless, then the challenging and interesting aspects of the game . . . aren't.</p><p>So, after playing EQ1, EQ2, and Vanguard . . . I like EQ2's current approach to death. No need for shards. Or corpse runs, either.</p>

[Kri]

<p>Soul shards:</p><ol><li>Were very time consuming for the CSR as they quite frequently became bugged. I had several shard not absorbing despite standing on top of them and also shards that were nowhere to be found. </li><li>Destroyed the possibility of short play sessions. In half an hour I can explore, advance a couple of quests and just basically _play_ the game. Before I could only do those things if I had more time to play because of the risk of dropping a shard early on and spending my entire session trying to get it back.</li><li>Added nothing to the game. Absolutely nothing. Some people claim they were a great opportunity for grouping. Quite the contrary in fact as many groups first had to chase down the members' soul shards before they could do the things they _really_ wanted to do.</li></ol>

[Kri]

<cite>Giralus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>now you need other players help for ?   what ?  you need to interact for what ? o yeah a bunch of baby arguements in lvl chat is about all : ) </p><p> (atleast with the access quest to go to EL,Zek,LS,EF you had community interaction, those have been removed as well) </p></blockquote>Do you really need game mechanics forcing you to interact? How about interacting with other people because you _want_ to interact with them.

[Miele]

Discussions like this are like shooting on dead horses with a Cruise missile. I don't care either way and I'll tell you why: because if I lose 1 hour recovering my shard, I don't care, I play one hour more and sleep 1 hour less, but if little Timmy or Johnny Casual loses one hour and has only 30 minutes left to play, he logs off disgusted. I don't want people to logoff, I want people to play and playing is adventuring, looting, killing stuff and getting loot, or harvesting and crafting if that's your preference, plus all the little details that make EQ2 great. Not getting your corpse back. There is a very small exp debt, there are repair costs, enough. I'd just cancel repair costs as well, they are so small that they serve no purpose at all, but to limit to 10 tries everything you do (bare armor kits availability).

[firza]

Death is a way of transport. No more, no less.

[Thicket Tundrabog]

Never liked corpse shards and never will. When I play EQ-2 I want to hunt, quest, harvest, craft, raid and do all sorts of things. I DON'T want to spend time retrieving my corpse or helping others retrieve theirs. It's simply NOT FUN.

[The_Cheeseman]

Let me interject a bit of personal experience in the mix, maybe it will help to get the message across. I have been playing EQ2 since launch. Before that I played UO, EQ1, FF11, and even CoH. Suffice it to say, I know what I am doing in-game. That being said, I work third shift, and because of the lack of players on at such times, I am often forced to solo content that was not designed for it. Since doing gray quests is rather unexciting, I try to finish them while they are still green, so I often have to take serious risks to succeed at my endeavors. I am a monk, not really a class that is known for being great for soloing big-name encounters. I am first to agree that monks are awesome for getting around zones and killing even-match MOBs, but we have little available to us that would allow us to kill heroics anywhere near our level. However, I decided that  wanted to finish the "Lost Legend of Lavastorm" heritage quest, and I was determined to do so while the MOBs were still green (even if the quest itself, at level 58, was not). I traveled alone into Solusek's Eye, running invisibly past what I could, and FD-flopping through the rest. I was facing green, heroic, triple-arrow-up, named by myself, and it took quite a few tries to succeed. Some times I simply got unlucky - FD failed 3 times in a row or the random number generator decided that my avoidance and proc rates just weren't in my favor - but I went back in, repaired my gear at the conveniently-placed mender, and gave it another shot. I probably died a good 10 times that night, but I walked out of there with the Crown of King Tranix and a profound sense of victory. If I had dropped a shard every time I died, it would not have increased my satisfaction with victory, merely my annoyance with each defeat. Getting The Castigator down to red HP only to have another giant add at the last minute and squash me was enough of a penalty in my eyes, and adding further insult to my injury would not have made the evening any more enjoyable. Would you enjoy playing Chess or Monopoly any more if losing cost you a dollar each time? Would you even bother to play at all? You have to lose to learn how to win, and to penalize learning experiences is to discourage education. Anybody remember in Kunark-era EQ1, where we had the "Kunark Highway" leveling method? (Field of Bone -> Lake of Ill Omen -> Dreadlands -> Karnor's Castle) People could get all the way to level 60 without ever stepping foot inside a dungeon (KC doesn't count, sorry) or having to fight anything even remotely challenging. Do you think they did that because it was more fun than exploring dungeons and getting loot from named? I think not, but it was easy, and they didn't have to deal with hour-long corpse-runs in the depths of Sebilis. Let me tell you, as a monk who often was in charge of corpse retrieval, dragging the bodies of a failed, 32-man Trakanon raid from his lair to the zone line is NOT a fun or interesting experience for anyone involved. In summation, artificial and extraneous penalties for death not only serve to deter players from seeking challenge, they also cause undue mental stress for those who are doing their best to defeat such challenges, but who encounter one of many uncontrollable causes of failure. In a game where there is no final reward for playing, one must find their victory each time they log in. Failing to achieve that victory is enough of a penalty in itself, without forcing the player to end up worse off then he began.

[Nakaru-Nitepaw]

My opinion is the game needs to be less of a wait/camp fest and more of a enjoyable experience. I didn't like corpse runs in EQ1, because it prevented me from playing and enjoying myself. This is a game. Your supposed to have fun. The soul shard idea was a lot easier to cope with but i still would prefer a different idea. We need to focus on the experience dept. 1 kill will clear it up in most cases. It's trivial. I think the dept system needs to be calculated based on your level, the con level of the mob, and how long it took for you to kill it. For example if your killing 100 things within 5 minutes of equal level your going to lose more exp when you die as compared to if you were killing 5 things within 10 minutes. This might take some math on SOE's part. Also i think that anyone who can build armor and weapons should be able to mend it too. Very frustrating being 5 zones and 10 minutes away from the nearest mender with broken armor lol.

[StormCinder]

<p>Sooo...</p><p>if death shouldn't be a penalty, why do we have HPs?  If "the game should be just about adventuring" then we should be immune to attack.  We can still go through the motions of the battle, but to die and get moved back, even within the same zone, reduces the amount of time we have to adventure and explore new areas. </p><p>Not only should there be no death penalty, there should be no death.</p><p>And don't argue realism: "It's just a game, it's not real life."</p>

[Surething]

Ok, get SOE to set up a "death sucks" server.  Everyone that wants a meaningful death penalty can have a one way transfer to that server (you may never darken the door of a regular server again). That way you can have all the death penalty you want without the rest of us having to put up with it. However, don't be surprised if it's really hard to get enough people for a group on the DS Server.

[Ijiamee]

<cite>The_Cheeseman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Let me interject a bit of personal experience in the mix, maybe it will help to get the message across. I have been playing EQ2 since launch. Before that I played UO, EQ1, FF11, and even CoH. Suffice it to say, I know what I am doing in-game. That being said, I work third shift, and because of the lack of players on at such times, I am often forced to solo content that was not designed for it. Since doing gray quests is rather unexciting, I try to finish them while they are still green, so I often have to take serious risks to succeed at my endeavors. I am a monk, not really a class that is known for being great for soloing big-name encounters. I am first to agree that monks are awesome for getting around zones and killing even-match MOBs, but we have little available to us that would allow us to kill heroics anywhere near our level. However, I decided that  wanted to finish the "Lost Legend of Lavastorm" heritage quest, and I was determined to do so while the MOBs were still green (even if the quest itself, at level 58, was not). I traveled alone into Solusek's Eye, running invisibly past what I could, and FD-flopping through the rest. I was facing green, heroic, triple-arrow-up, named by myself, and it took quite a few tries to succeed. Some times I simply got unlucky - FD failed 3 times in a row or the random number generator decided that my avoidance and proc rates just weren't in my favor - but I went back in, repaired my gear at the conveniently-placed mender, and gave it another shot. I probably died a good 10 times that night, but I walked out of there with the Crown of King Tranix and a profound sense of victory. If I had dropped a shard every time I died, it would not have increased my satisfaction with victory, merely my annoyance with each defeat. Getting The Castigator down to red HP only to have another giant add at the last minute and squash me was enough of a penalty in my eyes, and adding further insult to my injury would not have made the evening any more enjoyable. Would you enjoy playing Chess or Monopoly any more if losing cost you a dollar each time? Would you even bother to play at all? You have to lose to learn how to win, and to penalize learning experiences is to discourage education. Anybody remember in Kunark-era EQ1, where we had the "Kunark Highway" leveling method? (Field of Bone -> Lake of Ill Omen -> Dreadlands -> Karnor's Castle) People could get all the way to level 60 without ever stepping foot inside a dungeon (KC doesn't count, sorry) or having to fight anything even remotely challenging. Do you think they did that because it was more fun than exploring dungeons and getting loot from named? I think not, but it was easy, and they didn't have to deal with hour-long corpse-runs in the depths of Sebilis. Let me tell you, as a monk who often was in charge of corpse retrieval, dragging the bodies of a failed, 32-man Trakanon raid from his lair to the zone line is NOT a fun or interesting experience for anyone involved. In summation, artificial and extraneous penalties for death not only serve to deter players from seeking challenge, they also cause undue mental stress for those who are doing their best to defeat such challenges, but who encounter one of many uncontrollable causes of failure. In a game where there is no final reward for playing, one must find their victory each time they log in. Failing to achieve that victory is enough of a penalty in itself, without forcing the player to end up worse off then he began. </blockquote><p>Well said.</p><p>//applaud </p>

[Lornick]

I miss shards too, but I think the general consenus of the population prefers the game without them.

[Tyrion]

<cite>The_Cheeseman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Let me interject a bit of personal experience in the mix, maybe it will help to get the message across. I have been playing EQ2 since launch. Before that I played UO, EQ1, FF11, and even CoH. Suffice it to say, I know what I am doing in-game. That being said, I work third shift, and because of the lack of players on at such times, I am often forced to solo content that was not designed for it. Since doing gray quests is rather unexciting, I try to finish them while they are still green, so I often have to take serious risks to succeed at my endeavors. I am a monk, not really a class that is known for being great for soloing big-name encounters. I am first to agree that monks are awesome for getting around zones and killing even-match MOBs, but we have little available to us that would allow us to kill heroics anywhere near our level. However, I decided that  wanted to finish the "Lost Legend of Lavastorm" heritage quest, and I was determined to do so while the MOBs were still green (even if the quest itself, at level 58, was not). I traveled alone into Solusek's Eye, running invisibly past what I could, and FD-flopping through the rest. I was facing green, heroic, triple-arrow-up, named by myself, and it took quite a few tries to succeed. Some times I simply got unlucky - FD failed 3 times in a row or the random number generator decided that my avoidance and proc rates just weren't in my favor - but I went back in, repaired my gear at the conveniently-placed mender, and gave it another shot. I probably died a good 10 times that night, but I walked out of there with the Crown of King Tranix and a profound sense of victory. If I had dropped a shard every time I died, it would not have increased my satisfaction with victory, merely my annoyance with each defeat. Getting The Castigator down to red HP only to have another giant add at the last minute and squash me was enough of a penalty in my eyes, and adding further insult to my injury would not have made the evening any more enjoyable. Would you enjoy playing Chess or Monopoly any more if losing cost you a dollar each time? Would you even bother to play at all? You have to lose to learn how to win, and to penalize learning experiences is to discourage education. Anybody remember in Kunark-era EQ1, where we had the "Kunark Highway" leveling method? (Field of Bone -> Lake of Ill Omen -> Dreadlands -> Karnor's Castle) People could get all the way to level 60 without ever stepping foot inside a dungeon (KC doesn't count, sorry) or having to fight anything even remotely challenging. Do you think they did that because it was more fun than exploring dungeons and getting loot from named? I think not, but it was easy, and they didn't have to deal with hour-long corpse-runs in the depths of Sebilis. Let me tell you, as a monk who often was in charge of corpse retrieval, dragging the bodies of a failed, 32-man Trakanon raid from his lair to the zone line is NOT a fun or interesting experience for anyone involved. <b>In summation, artificial and extraneous penalties for death not only serve to deter players from seeking challenge, they also cause undue mental stress for those who are doing their best to defeat such challenges, but who encounter one of many uncontrollable causes of failure. In a game where there is no final reward for playing, one must find their victory each time they log in. Failing to achieve that victory is enough of a penalty in itself, without forcing the player to end up worse off then he began. </b></blockquote><p>Bolded for emphasis. I couldn't have said it better myself. </p><p>Give people reason to want to continue playing, as in accomplishing a quest, defeating a challenging mob, and having fun. Don't give them reason to log off in disgust because they can't do all of these things. Some stupid white shard on the ground does not symbolize failure. I don't need to re-attach a limb or fuse a portion of my soul back to my body to understand failure, I understood failure when I watched Wuoshi [Removed for Content] on my corpse for the 100th time. Now I'm just that much more driven to kill him and finally succeed.</p><p>The hardest challenges in the game always taste the sweetest when you finallly overcome them. I don't need artifical chains holding me back.</p>

[Giral]

<cite>Surething wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok, get SOE to set up a "death sucks" server.  Everyone that wants a meaningful death penalty can have a one way transfer to that server (you may never darken the door of a regular server again). That way you can have all the death penalty you want without the rest of us having to put up with it. However, don't be surprised if it's really hard to get enough people for a group on the DS Server. </blockquote><p> actualy out of all the Countless threads that have come up since they removed Shards that i have read i would say that </p><p>20% realy like shards and Want them back in for various reasons </p><p>75% didnt like them but were use to them, or kinda missed them and understood why they were there but it didnt effect the game one way or the other to them, if they added them back in they could live with it, and if they didnt such is life whateva. </p><p>5% That totaly HATED shards, wanted to crawl thru there computer and bludgen someone with a rusty hammer when they lost a shard , think it is the Stupidiest concept that Death has to be painfull(Oxymoron i know but Meh it s Eq2)</p><p>anyone that Played eq2 from release and was playing When they removed shards Never ever in 1 million years expected them to just remove them from the game , Especialy a month after they put in Venders to buy your shards back,         </p><p>so if all of these people were so against Shards,had Such an issue with them, why were they playing eq2 ?    Simple people Played the game the way it was created, Most people can handle a set back, most people expect there to be penelties in a game,  most players were long time players of previous MMo's that had a much sterner death penelty, etc,,, and countless other reason's,      BUT i cant recall one time, i ever heard or read in the forums for anyone wanting shards to be removed from the game for any other reason except for a shard getting stuck,  and if i happen to have missed a thread on it , im sure there were 5 % in agrrement and 95 % against it </p><p>Anyway i dont know if you still can go back thru ALL the Forum posts about Shards , But if you can, go on them , read thru them all ,    add up how many people wanted shards back in the game, how many could live with it if they were put back, how many people didnt like them but felt they added to the game/understood why death had value,  and the ones that Hated shards and would QUIT if they put them back in, or would seriously be very upset if they did put them back in <------ i read many many of them, posted on Many of them, and IMO it was just a Few of the same people over and over again with the same excuse SHARDS ARENT FUN,we play the game for FUN, we dont need to be Penalized for failure failer is enough in and of itself etc,,, the Dev's agree Eq2 should be set up for the Lowest common denominator.  and you are left with a Hack and SLash, game, where even death itself is a joke, </p><p>seriously how many people wouldn't attempt anything even with Shards Back in the game ? IMO a very very few!</p><p>P.s.   i personaly would love an Ironman server with Group exp loss, level loss,shard's,decreased stats for each shard lost,armor damage, for me it add's depth to the game, it adds alot of risk, if you want to attempt something you are prepared to risk alot = all of the above +the Time loss ( this being the Hugest whine about shards is the OmG TIME MY PRECIOUS TIME OMG OMG I LOST TIME OMG OMG <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p><p>Mute point, the game is catered to people who only have 1 hour a day to play, how many group/raids zones take much more then an hour to clear in a decent group/raid force ?  i personaly think that people who only play 1 Hour a day are in the VAST minorty . </p><p>but SoE believes thats where the Money is, and as the ENdcapped player's with 10 alts that keep trickling out of the game from shear boredom of rinse and repeat/hack and slash/no risk all reward gameplay . yeah you have a trickle of new players comin in, to find a Game that from 1-50 is pretty desolate</p><p>Enter a Epic land of Life and Death Risk vs Reward, eerrrr Scratch that this is Eq2 so it should be Enter a Land of Life and Rewards</p>

[mellowknees72]

Shadowbreath@Splitpaw wrote: <blockquote><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote>If your character requires some external penalty upon dying to make that death 'meaningful', then the character's life itself was worthless. The penalty for dying should be equal to the loss of whatever one would have acomplished by remaining alive. There is no need for any greater penalty. </blockquote>Fully agree! Death means failure, thus making it something I want to avoid. Absolutely no need for any external penalty. </blockquote><p> Not to mention that for some of us, our Kills vs. Deaths ratio is significant to us.</p><p>For a LONG time, my husband and I and our little, teeny guild was in the top 10 on our server for Kills vs. Deaths.</p><p>(Not anymore, though - we taught his parents how to play and their learning curve shot our Kills to Deaths all to hell, but that's okay <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> they're fun to play with anyhow).</p><p>I DON'T want to see the return of group experience debt.  Shards weren't bad, but in my opinion they were relatively meaningless.  All you had to do was walk *near* it to absorb it (okay, for the first month or whatever, you had to right click it).  Retrieving a shard is in NO way comparable to an EQ1 corpse run.  I can STILL recall having a second set of gear in the bank for those wonderful occasions...ugh!</p>

[Zard]

<cite>Giralus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>P.s.   i personaly would love an Ironman server with Group exp loss, level loss,shard's,decreased stats for each shard lost,armor damage, for me it add's depth to the game, it adds alot of risk, if you want to attempt something you are prepared to risk alot = all of the above +the Time loss</p></blockquote> I, too, would like an option to join a PvE server that has a more difficult ruleset. True ironman = permadeath, so nothing that hardcore, but something along the lines of what you described plus difficultly options, like Splitpaw, Poet's Palace, etc. for every instance.

[Ama]

<p>Have to say I liked the Soul Shard idea as well and it was heartbreaking when they took it out.  Practically had my finger on the cancel subscription button when they did it.  </p><p>Right now I see players that don't care about death and "Death Port" if they don't have evac.  Another fact is that XP debt is trivialized by the fact it can be gotten rid of in 1-9 mob kills.  On my 23 Brigand I can get rid of debt inside of 4 mobs and on my warden inside of 9.  </p><p>Wish it was near like EQOA where xp debt was super heavy.  You die once you have to get rid of like 15% debt and it took atleast 100 mob kills to near an entire session.  Sadly I don't think we'll ever see this type of extremism with penalization as far as death goes.  Anymore it feels like a slap on the wrist. </p>

[dawy]

I miss the soul shards i really do..

[LordPazuzu]

<cite>phoenixshard wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>LordPazuzu wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I laughed at that then and I laught at it now.  Death is nearly painless now.  You just pop right back up and try again.  It doesn't even boot you out and cause you to fail the instance anymore.  You're free to try again and again and again.  The failure means nothing because there is no penalty for failing other than you get to try again as much as you want until you get it right or it's time to log off.</p> <p>Those who say that failure is it's own penalty must not handle failure very well.  Life is full of failure and failure comes with consequences...  Except apparently, in EverQuest 2.</p><p> I say bring back the Soul Shard.</p></blockquote>Some of the zones it does boot you out of.  Fallen Gate, Wailing Caves, and Shattered Vale come immediately to mind for that.  To me, the death penalty you have now is good enough.  There shouldn't be a high penalty for death in a game that you play for relaxation.  You are right that in llfe you will experience failures and sometimes those failures can have high consequences, but I play EQ2 to get away from the everyday life for a little while and would rather keep the heavy penalties for toon death out. </blockquote>Never understood why people play MMOs for relaxation.  MMOs are one of the most stressful game genres out there.  If I wanted to relax, I'd lounge out in my sky chair with a good book.  I guess we all want different things out of these games.  For me, relaxation isn't it.

[Nakaru-Nitepaw]

<cite>LordPazuzu wrote:</cite><blockquote>phoenixshard wrote: Never understood why people play MMOs for relaxation.  MMOs are one of the most stressful game genres out there.  If I wanted to relax, I'd lounge out in my sky chair with a good book.  I guess we all want different things out of these games.  For me, relaxation isn't it. </blockquote> True they can be stressful but i love a peaceful environment where i can relax. Sometimes i go to Enchanted lands to be around trees, weird scorpion rat thing, corrupted haflings, and... that... <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2g1fr5vk72M" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Giant Enemy Crab</a>! o.o

[Fatkiddown]

<p>To be honest I think the ghost way that wow does it is best.   That way yes you die but you don't revive back at the zone (say Sanctum of Scaleborn for example).    You take an armor hit and you are a ghost till you get close enough to your corpse to click revive.  Now along the way you cannot see any zone mobs until you get within a close radius of where your corpse is.  That way you don't have people dying and staying in ghost form and running around scouting the zone for named NPCs etc.   So you have to make a "corpse" run but you are a ghost in a different plane of existance and all you have to worry about is if your corpse has NPC standing on it etc.    There is nothing I hate worse when playing my healer if a noob in group dies and clicks revive and the rest of us live so then I cannot res said noob because his body is gone.    So at this point say it is the tank that accidently clicked revive way down in the bottom of SoS....he cannot fight his way back solo and we have no backup tank etc.   Options are group  evac (if you have it) and fight all the way back down, or if you lucky enough to have Conjuror do CotH.    With the ghost system even if said person revives to ghost form and starts making the trek back to their body as a healer I can click on the corpse and revive and bring them back to life.    I play both games and overall I prefer eq2 over wow but the ghost thing in wow I do think is a better IMO.</p><p>just my 2 copper</p>

[mellowknees72]

<cite>LordPazuzu wrote:</cite><blockquote>Never understood why people play MMOs for relaxation.  MMOs are one of the most stressful game genres out there.  If I wanted to relax, I'd lounge out in my sky chair with a good book.  I guess we all want different things out of these games.  For me, relaxation isn't it. </blockquote><p>It's only stressful if you want it to be.</p><p>I don't raid or do pick up groups - I only group with people I know or play solo.  No stress whatsoever when you do it that way. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>When I've had a crappy day, nothing relaxes me like taking my monk out to Mystic Lake and pounding the snot out of the green-con pirates out there.  Sure, not a lot of exp comes from it, but it's a great way to work out aggression.  Muahaha and such. </p>

[Windowlicker]

<p>I have better things to do then chase down soul shards all day. </p><p>Further to that, I'd like to see how great you think soul shards are when your in a raid that wipes in a zone you're already having problems in.</p><p>That's a raidwide decrease to stats.  </p><p>Sorry, Spirit Shards were horrible and their removal was one of the main reasons I returned to this game.</p>

[Skua]

<cite>Fatkiddown wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>To be honest I think the ghost way that wow does it is best.   That way yes you die but you don't revive back at the zone (say Sanctum of Scaleborn for example).    You take an armor hit and you are a ghost till you get close enough to your corpse to click revive.  Now along the way you cannot see any zone mobs until you get within a close radius of where your corpse is.  That way you don't have people dying and staying in ghost form and running around scouting the zone for named NPCs etc.   So you have to make a "corpse" run but you are a ghost in a different plane of existance and all you have to worry about is if your corpse has NPC standing on it etc.    There is nothing I hate worse when playing my healer if a noob in group dies and clicks revive and the rest of us live so then I cannot res said noob because his body is gone.    So at this point say it is the tank that accidently clicked revive way down in the bottom of SoS....he cannot fight his way back solo and we have no backup tank etc.   Options are group  evac (if you have it) and fight all the way back down, or if you lucky enough to have Conjuror do CotH.    With the ghost system even if said person revives to ghost form and starts making the trek back to their body as a healer I can click on the corpse and revive and bring them back to life.    I play both games and overall I prefer eq2 over wow but the ghost thing in wow I do think is a better IMO.</p><p>just my 2 copper</p></blockquote>yeah ghost thing is a good idea.... and if some1 click revive.....too bad u dont invited a conjuror <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[phoenixshard]

<cite>LordPazuzu wrote:</cite><blockquote>Never understood why people play MMOs for relaxation.  MMOs are one of the most stressful game genres out there.  If I wanted to relax, I'd lounge out in my sky chair with a good book.  I guess we all want different things out of these games.  For me, relaxation isn't it. </blockquote>I personally don't know why anyone would do something for fun that is stressful.  I guess that's up to the individual though, but if something is stressful, I definitely don't want to do it in my freetime for fun.

[LordPazuzu]

<cite>phoenixshard wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>LordPazuzu wrote:</cite><blockquote>Never understood why people play MMOs for relaxation.  MMOs are one of the most stressful game genres out there.  If I wanted to relax, I'd lounge out in my sky chair with a good book.  I guess we all want different things out of these games.  For me, relaxation isn't it. </blockquote>I personally don't know why anyone would do something for fun that is stressful.  I guess that's up to the individual though, but if something is stressful, I definitely don't want to do it in my freetime for fun. </blockquote><p> I've always enjoyed a healthy dose of tension in my RPGs.  Probably why I was such a huge fan of EQ1 pre-PoP.  I really miss those days.</p><p><blockquote></p><p>Further to that, I'd like to see how great you think soul shards are when your in a raid that wipes in a zone you're already having problems in.</p><p>That's a raidwide decrease to stats.  </blockquote>  </p><p>That would be great incentive not to wipe.  I wish it was still like that.  Though my raid crew rarely wipes these days anymore, the suck factor soul shards would probably have helped us to kick our bad habits alot faster.</p>

[Nakaru-Nitepaw]

Imagine how horrible it was back when the soul shards DID exist. Your level 50 in permafrost.. need i say more? i will. Your shard is laying next to vision of vox or one of the other epics in there. You gota fight your way to it through all the giants plus THEM and possibly end up collecting a few MORE shards from extra deaths. ;p In that time you probably got kicked from the raid for lagging behind them all.

[Asif]

Nope dont need them or want them in the game for me they just plain suck  !!!!

[Gnae]

Interesting about the CS issue, I supposed that is probably why. Death is not death, it's a small charge with a teleport a little ways from where you were.  Oops, I died again, guess I will try it again.  Few hours later.  "Yay I beat the Massively Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game."  This isn't a console game where you save your game and move on.  It's a persistant world (or supposed to be).  And unfortunatly console gamers expect ease of play, where PC gamers are used to challenges. Half the fun of a dungeon is when your heart is pumping so hard you can hear it, because you know at any time a train of mobs might barrel down upon you and erase that hard experience you worked hard to get.  It's knowing that going back to that spot and getting your shard is going to hurt, it's NOT going to be fun.  So you plan, you work as a team, you creap carefully along and pull slowly.  You plan to NOT DIE! That heart pounding fear made the victory so much sweeter!  You spend the time to learn the names of your foe, "Fippy Darkpaw".  You took the time to learn the layout of the dungeons.  You took the time to learn your class and strategy.  Because you DIDN'T, REALLY DIDN'T want to die.  The idea has certainly changed.  It seems heart pounding fearful dungeons are too hard for the Mcdonalds generation.  It's too difficult for the microwave generation.  Their riddlin pills are running out on that corps run and now they want to get to the end game.  Why not start everyone out at level cap with all gear.  Then the dungeons will be fun right, no bummers like low levels to ruin the game. No they don't want risk, because they might loose.  The greater the risk, the more sweet the reward.  Older games knew this, today's gamers spoon fed on Playstation games doesn't know this.

[Nakaru-Nitepaw]

<cite>Gnaeus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Half the fun of a dungeon is when your heart is pumping so hard you can hear it, because you know at any time a train of mobs might barrel down upon you and erase that hard experience you worked hard to get. </blockquote>I miss those days. When i played EQ1 i felt that way even in blackburrow. Got to be careful through this narrow corridor. There may be a trap door leading to death below, or a elite group of gnolls behind a hidden wall passage. I always creeped my way in and out looking in all directions. I try to make sure everything is dead so it doesn't run for help. Theres just something about the old EQ1 dungeons that gives me the shivers. Is it the old square meshing of the zones, texturing, or the music? I still love old games like TES2 Daggerfall and TES1 Arena because of these concepts.

[Wossname]

I've played since not long after release and I understood the thinking behind the shards. At the time I thought they were a major improvement over the excessive death penalty of EQ1, a game I quit in disgust at the heinous design errors and timesinks. A shard run was much less of a nightmare than a naked corpse run but I had my share of lost shards too. At least they reabsorbed after 72 hours real time. Nothing like the disastrous trip to Lower Guk where I once stayed up until 4am to get my corpse back because I had a flight to the US in the morning and I wouldn't be back before all my gear rotted permanently <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I think it was Moorgard who said that one of the major reasons shards were removed was because they disproportionately punished the more casual players. The people who have 8+ hours a day to play and no meatspace commitments didn't care about shard runs but others did and it made them less likely to play. Much as the vocal people on these boards want the game "their way" it is the silent majority of casual players who pay the bulk of the subscription income for SOE and simple economics dictates that certain concessions must be made to their playstyle. Lots of people have exciting times in-game without the crushing penalty of death that existed in EQ1. All of that said, I don't miss shard runs but I do have conflicting thoughts about what the death penalty should be. On one hand I don't want it to get worse (I'm selfish, I admit it...) but sometimes unless you are deep in a dungeon it does seem like there's no real point to rez spells as the revive point is only a couple of minutes away, tops. The only thing I can come up with is an increased xp debt but even I admit that's kind of lame and unimaginative even if rez were to prevent xp debt <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Salonkolya]

<p>I hated the CRs in EQ1. Being a, "just look round the next corner" type I used to die in the worst possible places and have the worst possible CRs but...</p><p>because the penalties were often so nightmarish the adrenaline rush was huge.</p><p>I can see why most people might hate extreme death penalties, I sort of half-hate them myself. I do miss the buzz they cause when you *avoid* dying.</p><p>An Ironman server, or even an option, where you had one free death per level (as I die probably at least once per level just from linkdeaths while in a fight) would appeal to me.</p><p>Or as someone mentioned earlier...</p><p>"For 'fun' I'd prefer more of a reward system rather than a punishment system in games."</p><p>Some kind of reward for surviving without dying (same proviso of one death per level not counting). It could even be something trivial but cool like a title for getting to level 10, 20, etc without dying. Or a buffing statue for your house.</p><p>Some way of getting back the fear of dying that wouldn't put off people that hate the extreme penalties.</p><p>(The ghost idea mentioned above sounds quite cool too)</p>

[IKilled007]

<p>Soul Shards...</p><p>Yikes, I must have blocked those from my memory because I had forgotten all about those days. Back in the days when Nek Forest had flying man-eating fish that chased you to the zone out. I think one time I had 10 or so shards in that zone.</p>

[Sydares]

No. NO. A thousand times NO.

[Surething]

The "big" death penalty is really for those that enjoy being victims. SOE used to play that idea up big time (I really hate that philosophy).  Over time they found out (in a way that cost them money) that those types are in the minority. I remember the one that really went too far in EQ I; we (druids) got a new port that transported us right under the feet of a dragon (talk about a brutal corpse retrieval).  I still remember Smedely giggling about that one. Sorry, I just don't enjoy being a victim - if enough people really like a sucky death penalty then I still say give them their own server (of no return). If enough people really enjoyed the death sucks kind of game, that is what we would have. SOE changed it to the current system to avoid droves of people leaving the game.  There are far fewer people that would leave EQ II because death doesn't suck than the other way around.

[Maroger]

No way do I ever want Soul Shards again. I think death is just fine as it is. If you want a penalty go play Vanguard -- you get to run back and loot your tombstone. That should make you happy for it you do a corpse summoning at the altar the XP loss is hideous  Don't spoil EQ2 - go play Vanguard, Brad McWasteMyTime built all those things into that game -- he always did love XP and level loss.

[Giral]

<p>i keep hearing the Minority , the minority , the minority </p><p>dont people still play eq1? , as far as i know more people there then in eq2</p><p>dont people play vanguard?, as far as i know about the same amount of people there as eq2</p><p>dont people play wow ? as far as i know 100X the amount of people that play eq2 (Yes even wow has a Greater death penelty than eq2)</p><p>and how may other Fantasy MMo's out there that have a Larger death penelty then Eq2????  between free ones and Pay2Play lets say 10 Other MMo's that have a sterner death penelty then eq2</p><p>Eq2 Caters to the Majority ?? I think Not, the "Majority" is playing Other games with More Sever death penelties. and only a "Minority" of players in eq2 are totaly against a sterner death penelty.</p><p> And in eq2 you happen to have player's that like a Minimilistic death penelty/slap on the wrist (minority) , players that dont like them but understand why you would have them and could deal with a sterner penelty then what we have now (the majority), and the ones that think death should be a seriously Bad thing(minority)   so  yes Eq2 does cater to the minority of MMO's and One of the minorities of eq2.   </p><p>and it isn't gaining them Players by the busload . People from other games are looking to Move onto More challenging game's(yes i read many forum posts that were hoping vanguard would be a great game, and Many Wow players posted there looking to move on to a Harder MMO)    IMO not many people want to go from playing a easy MMO(WOW) to an even easier MMO(Eq2)      </p><p> sure eq2 is pretty to look at, but it is a very redundant game without Death, you cleared one zone you cleared them all, alot of players are bored, or left for other games already,  leveling in eq2 is so fast its ridiculous, rewards drop like candy, there is no zones that you cannot defeat, there is no excitement, no thrill,no feeling of victory. it's spoon fed and IMO Most people dont like to be spoon fed and thats why there playing other games with alot more to lose(exp Loss,corpse/headstone,armor damage/decreased stats/group debt/De-leveling)  if they act the fool and die/wipe group's/wipe raid's than it Truely does suck BUT if they Win thru and aviod all that + clear a zone its a true feeling of accomplishing something Hard in a video game, even when a item drop's nobody can use  : ) . it was the pulling off the feat itself that was most of the reward </p><p>Last example of this is that from the Developers statment about "Rise of Kunark" expansion in Nov, " Don't expect Kunark to be a walk in the park, it will be a Dangerous place."  so obviously even the developer's feel that eq2 is lacking in Danger or in other words Risk .  </p><p>Risk Vs Reward = a good game for a long time you always have Challange , sometimes just geting from point a to b is a challange in itself. </p><p>No risk all reward = a good game for a month or so . no long term reason to play, you cant die, you cant lose anything, no matter how foolish you play you still win, and even the Most foolish get bored with even there foolish things not making any differance whatso ever. </p>

[Rezikai]

<p>Myself... after rethinking about the soul shards.. i woulnt mind them back in game... ONLY if there were a vaible way to return them without running back to zones with lockout timers for them... for example. Back when SOE was phasing out the spirit shards they had a vendor in Qeynos or Freeport where you could buy back your lost shards for amounts of coin.. depending on how many you lost determined the amount it cost to reclaim them all from the vendor.</p><p>This idea i liked best.. this kept the penatly for failing and death resonable ( i think it was 3 or 6% per shard) while.. allowing folks to go buy back shards lost in places where they could not go retrieve them easily say a zone with a lockout timer or deep, deep in a contested area.</p><p>This way showing the penalty for death but less the stress and frustration of shard recovery.</p>

[retro_guy]

Auric@Oasis wrote: <blockquote>While we're probably in the minority, I liked shards too. Heck, I even liked group XP debt except when some bozo would die halfway across the zone, sometimes multiple times, everyone would share the debt and then he would eventually disband out of frustration. If they restricted the distance you would need to be for XP debt to be the same as <i>earning</i> XP I would have liked it better. Of course, in those days, XP debt actually meant something. . .  <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote> Yeah I "loved" group XP debt too, I fondly remember running across Antonica to buy some bags off a crafter who was in a group fighting near Stormhold - he invited me to show me where he was and the group promptly wiped - brilliant, loved group XP debt! I mean I was about a kilometre away, man those AOEs have a long range! I don't miss group debt or soul shards, or corpse runs, if they were still in I'd still play, might sort out the men from the boys.

[EQ2Playa432]

Do you remember: <ul><li>Groups always breaking up because some idiot was dying and everyone got group debt</li><li>You had to click the shard but sometimes couldn't get it?</li><li>Shards got stuck in Permafrost on the bottom of the cliff and you had to petition? </li></ul>

[Glamourpuss]

<p>I for one would be putting my hand up for a transfer if a true RP server was brought it - with the full bells and whistles; strict death penalties (imagine the adrenaline rush being the healer!), languages, travel times, some form of pvp, etc. etc.</p><p>Hey, I even vaguely miss the EQ1 trains.  No wandering off and leaving your character sitting near the zone line while I go watch a bit of TV like I do now.  You had to concentrate, heart thumping in your chest, hoping you'd be able to rest back up to full strength before a train hit... </p><p>There's a good thread in the Expansions forum that has some fantastic contructive posts about putting risk and variety back into the game.  I suggest everyone go read that one too <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[rubels]

<p>I vote YES for shards !</p><p>The CSR problem = easy solution .... new ancient teaching spell for necro Summon Shard , requires coffin <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> at the cost of a plat.</p><p>- Krov </p>

[Lonestryd]

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote>No way do I ever want Soul Shards again. I think death is just fine as it is. If you want a penalty go play Vanguard -- you get to run back and loot your tombstone. That should make you happy for it you do a corpse summoning at the altar the XP loss is hideous  Don't spoil EQ2 - go play Vanguard, Brad McWasteMyTime built all those things into that game -- he always did love XP and level loss.</blockquote><p> Don't worry, noone is going to spoil this cute little puppy.  Oh, had a situation last night in Vanguard, where after a 2 hour dungeon run we wiped at the very end boss.  Half way through fighting back down for revenge I was already back in the positive, XP wise.  And that's at lvl 40, which is losing something like 240k XP.</p><p>Oh, and it was a blast and the entire group stuck together to accomplish the goal - good times.  </p><p>I could care less what the penalty is like in EQ2, but please understand that when you describe the XP loss as "hideous", its only from your perspective...your opinion.  It is not a fact.  </p>

[Maroger]

<cite>Vinton wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote>No way do I ever want Soul Shards again. I think death is just fine as it is. If you want a penalty go play Vanguard -- you get to run back and loot your tombstone. That should make you happy for it you do a corpse summoning at the altar the XP loss is hideous  Don't spoil EQ2 - go play Vanguard, Brad McWasteMyTime built all those things into that game -- he always did love XP and level loss.</blockquote><p> Don't worry, noone is going to spoil this cute little puppy.  Oh, had a situation last night in Vanguard, where after a 2 hour dungeon run we wiped at the very end boss.  Half way through fighting back down for revenge I was already back in the positive, XP wise.  And that's at lvl 40, which is losing something like 240k XP.</p><p>Oh, and it was a blast and the entire group stuck together to accomplish the goal - good times.  </p><p>I could care less what the penalty is like in EQ2, but please understand that when you describe the XP loss as "hideous", its only from your perspective...your opinion.  It is not a fact.  </p></blockquote>I am glad you enjoyed it. I had that kind of "fun" in EQ1(all they way through to Anguish) -- don't ever want that sort of "fun" again. I am happy with EQ2 just the way it is.  Never did find raiding tons of fun -- just boring and tedious.

[Norrsken]

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vinton wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote>No way do I ever want Soul Shards again. I think death is just fine as it is. If you want a penalty go play Vanguard -- you get to run back and loot your tombstone. That should make you happy for it you do a corpse summoning at the altar the XP loss is hideous  Don't spoil EQ2 - go play Vanguard, Brad McWasteMyTime built all those things into that game -- he always did love XP and level loss.</blockquote><p> Don't worry, noone is going to spoil this cute little puppy.  Oh, had a situation last night in Vanguard, where after a 2 hour dungeon run we wiped at the very end boss.  Half way through fighting back down for revenge I was already back in the positive, XP wise.  And that's at lvl 40, which is losing something like 240k XP.</p><p>Oh, and it was a blast and the entire group stuck together to accomplish the goal - good times.  </p><p>I could care less what the penalty is like in EQ2, but please understand that when you describe the XP loss as "hideous", its only from your perspective...your opinion.  It is not a fact.  </p></blockquote>I am glad you enjoyed it. I had that kind of "fun" in EQ1(all they way through to Anguish) -- don't ever want that sort of "fun" again. I am happy with EQ2 just the way it is.  Never did find raiding tons of fun -- just boring and tedious. </blockquote>I actually miss the bonding that some shard runs were. and I still abhor the worthless pugs, probably even more so now than before because nowadays they are all over the place, since noone gives  a [Removed for Content] about learning to play.

[erin]

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vinton wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote>No way do I ever want Soul Shards again. I think death is just fine as it is. If you want a penalty go play Vanguard -- you get to run back and loot your tombstone. That should make you happy for it you do a corpse summoning at the altar the XP loss is hideous  Don't spoil EQ2 - go play Vanguard, Brad McWasteMyTime built all those things into that game -- he always did love XP and level loss.</blockquote><p> Don't worry, noone is going to spoil this cute little puppy.  Oh, had a situation last night in Vanguard, where after a 2 hour dungeon run we wiped at the very end boss.  Half way through fighting back down for revenge I was already back in the positive, XP wise.  And that's at lvl 40, which is losing something like 240k XP.</p><p>Oh, and it was a blast and the entire group stuck together to accomplish the goal - good times.  </p><p>I could care less what the penalty is like in EQ2, but please understand that when you describe the XP loss as "hideous", its only from your perspective...your opinion.  It is not a fact.  </p></blockquote>I am glad you enjoyed it. I had that kind of "fun" in EQ1(all they way through to Anguish) -- don't ever want that sort of "fun" again. I am happy with EQ2 just the way it is.  Never did find raiding tons of fun -- just boring and tedious. </blockquote>Agreed.  I had so many crappy pugs in EQ1 that would break up before retrieving corpses, that I ended up making an SK on my other account just for these situations (no I'm not joking).  You couldn't be an explorer in EQ1 without significant risk of losing all your stuff.  I didn't mind the shards in EQ2 as much, worst case you parked your char for 3 days and waited to reabsorb, if something happened that you simply couldn't recover from.  I can live with that.  But fun?  No sorry, corpse runs are fun when its a good group working together.  That's been maybe 25% of my experience.  The other 75% its miserable 2 hours (that you should be sleeping because you have work tomorrow), with someone moaning the whole way and berating everyone, then grabbing their corpse/shard and leaving without helping the rest.  Oh yay, what fun! I had that "fun" in EQ1, I prefer EQ2.  I play, these days, for fun, for less stress.  EQ1 was fun when I was younger and had less responsibility, these days I CANNOT spend those 2 hours, I have too much riding on my job, I simply can't allow it.  So EQ2 is a better fit for my playstyle.  Shards?  Can take em or leave em, but I'm fine without thanks.  Group XP debt?  Can definitely live without THAT!

[Gnae]

<blockquote>I vote YES for shards !<p>The CSR problem = easy solution .... new ancient teaching spell for necro Summon Shard , requires coffin <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> at the cost of a plat.</p><p>- Krov</p></blockquote> <p>Yeah EQ1 had a way to summon your corps, it's called class interdependancy.  Clerics and Pally's could rez, Necros could summon corps, Druid's and Wizzy's could port, Mage could "call of hero" and tp a single player across the zone, Rangers and Druids could track, Chanters had mad mind crack, etc.  Every class had something to bring to the table.  Since coin was rare players used these abilities to earn coin.  If you weren't farming hill giants (or IGE).</p> The shard was a compromise already.  Group exp was a mechanic to end the "stupid player" syndrome.  EQ2 at launch was supposed to be a GROUPING game where how you played mattered.  So many CS issues of EQ1 went into the design of EQ2.  trains pretty much gone, ninja looting gone, kill stealing gone, and of course naked corps runs with corps rot. As I am sure there are threads on this subject I want to touch briefly on this one fact.  You really only have three options when it comes to death.  You may fall on the lesser or more penality side, but really only three ways to handle it. 1) No penality at all 2) Long term penalities 3) Short term penalities Long term: What some in this thread have posted was the very negative impact of a long term penalty, i.e. loosing your corps to rot and having to re-roll.  At level 50 with nice gear, unthinkable.  Players would call in sick, would ignore their familes, would do what it takes.  All that work isn't gonna rot away.  And if it does, CS is gonna get a call! Obviously no one wants corps rot.  But is it a good idea to allow the player to continue their short term goals and punish them more long term?  The way the game currently does this is through repair costs.  It doesn't stop you from continuing your dungeon crawl, but does hurt later on.  Is it stiff enough?  I think not, but it is one long term penalty. Short term: Be it corps runs or stat penalties, short term will hurt your ability to play right when you die.  The arguments against short term penalties are that your prevented, or takes longer to complete your objective.  How many of us have run a level through in a game again and again having to start back at the save point until we beat it.  Sometimes you try for hours on a difficult level.  Is that an unfair timesink or a challenge? While I agree no one should be STOPPED from going back and trying again, there should be some kind of short term penality for it.  The rez effects in game now last about a minute or so.  Really a short time.  Is that really a penality or a annoyance?  What if rez effects were more long term, say 10 minutes? No Penalities: You could take the approach that doing nothing is best as the defeat itself is punishment enough.  Well, except it doesn't actually deter you from dying.  And without risk there cannot be true reward.  What risk is there involved if death has no sting?  Really what is it you RISK for the REWARD when you play an MMORPG?  Is it money like the coin-op's?  No.  Is it game money?  Not really.  What is the most valuble asset a player has?  TIME!!!!!!!!!!  You risk time!  The whole debate revolves around time.  To the casual player it's very very very valuble.  They don't have or want to sink time into the game.  They want quick managable chunks.  The hardcore gamer has devoted (or can devote) MUCH more time into the game.  And they want more risk and more rewards and are willing to risk more time.  A corps run, be it shard or naked is simply about how much time should be risked in game?  The more casual player will always say time sinks are too steep, the more core player will say it's not enough.  Because both have different pools of time to risk. Let's face it, both groups want to enjoy the game simultainiously and devs have to find ways to compromise with both.  A game with no risk will equally have little or no rewards for your efforts.  No sense of accomplishment.  A game with too much risk will drive away very casual time sensitive players.  I still think the shard with a retrieval capability system (tiered for players level) should go into effect. Here is how I would design it. When you die several things happen.  1) You loose a certain portion of your exp in debt, large enough to set you back 20-30 min in gameplay for each shard until claimed or rezed.  2) You drop a soulshard 3) Your stuff takes the standard 10% hit (after 80% the stats on items begin to degrade with every death until repaired) 4) If you retrieve your shard your exp debt is reduced to only a couple of kills. 5) If you cannot retrieve it yourself, or don't want to you may pay a vendor for your shard.  This cost would be tiered with your level.  7) A healer ressurection CAN be preformed on a shard and would be the same as running back to your shard. <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Death effects (stat decrease) will be on the player for 10 min until shard is rezed or claimed.  And 10 more min added for each additional shard lost. 9) After 72 real hours of loosing a shard you shard will disapear and you will not be able to claim it.  Any remaining death effects would disapear. 10) Either through a quest or vet reward you can gain a "shard summon" ability that each player can have to summon one shard to them for free.  This ability can be used once per 24 real hours. I think this balances things out enough that causals can either have a rez or use a vender to get their shard back.

[Surething]

I still say give those that really want meaningful death penalties a one-way transfer to a "death sucks" server.  You will have what you want; and the rest of us will not have to put up with it. However, it seems every time I mention this the replies indicate that what "meaningful death penalty" people really want is to impose a "death sucks" penalty on those of us that don't want it. So... to you that want to impose your will on those of us that don't want to have your will imposed on us... Don't pee down our backs and expect us to believe it's really rain!!!!!

[DanaDark]

<p>Perma-Death.</p><p>Actually... thing I liked about old EQ1 was that the death penalty actually made you have to KNOW your class and have SKILL in order to be max lvl really... it made the bafoons stay under lvl 40 mostly...</p>

[Maroger]

<cite>Gnaeus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here is how I would design it. When you die several things happen.  1) You loose a certain portion of your exp in debt, large enough to set you back 20-30 min in gameplay for each shard until claimed or rezed.  2) You drop a soulshard 3) Your stuff takes the standard 10% hit (after 80% the stats on items begin to degrade with every death until repaired) 4) If you retrieve your shard your exp debt is reduced to only a couple of kills. 5) If you cannot retrieve it yourself, or don't want to you may pay a vendor for your shard.  This cost would be tiered with your level.  7) A healer ressurection CAN be preformed on a shard and would be the same as running back to your shard. <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Death effects (stat decrease) will be on the player for 10 min until shard is rezed or claimed.  And 10 more min added for each additional shard lost. 9) After 72 real hours of loosing a shard you shard will disapear and you will not be able to claim it.  Any remaining death effects would disapear. 10) Either through a quest or vet reward you can gain a "shard summon" ability that each player can have to summon one shard to them for free.  This ability can be used once per 24 real hours. I think this balances things out enough that causals can either have a rez or use a vender to get their shard back. </blockquote>That sounds exactly like Vanguard and Mr. Brad McWasteMyTime -- Please go play that game and stop inflicting unwanted ideas on the rest of us. The game is fine the way it is - leave it alone.

[Maroger]

<cite>Surething wrote:</cite><blockquote>I still say give those that really want meaningful death penalties a one-way transfer to a "death sucks" server.  You will have what you want; and the rest of us will not have to put up with it. However, it seems every time I mention this the replies indicate that what "meaningful death penalty" people really want is to impose a "death sucks" penalty on those of us that don't want it. So... to you that want to impose your will on those of us that don't want to have your will imposed on us... Don't pee down our backs and expect us to believe it's really rain!!!!! </blockquote> I nominate Gnaeus as a member of that server!! I know that is what he wants and he will enjoy it a lot. He may not have many people to play with but all those deaths will be tons of fun for him!!<img src="/smilies/49869fe8223507d7223db3451e5321aa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[FlamingDuck]

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gnaeus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here is how I would design it. When you die several things happen.  1) You loose a certain portion of your exp in debt, large enough to set you back 20-30 min in gameplay for each shard until claimed or rezed.  2) You drop a soulshard 3) Your stuff takes the standard 10% hit (after 80% the stats on items begin to degrade with every death until repaired) 4) If you retrieve your shard your exp debt is reduced to only a couple of kills. 5) If you cannot retrieve it yourself, or don't want to you may pay a vendor for your shard.  This cost would be tiered with your level.  7) A healer ressurection CAN be preformed on a shard and would be the same as running back to your shard. <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Death effects (stat decrease) will be on the player for 10 min until shard is rezed or claimed.  And 10 more min added for each additional shard lost. 9) After 72 real hours of loosing a shard you shard will disapear and you will not be able to claim it.  Any remaining death effects would disapear. 10) Either through a quest or vet reward you can gain a "shard summon" ability that each player can have to summon one shard to them for free.  This ability can be used once per 24 real hours. I think this balances things out enough that causals can either have a rez or use a vender to get their shard back. </blockquote>That sounds exactly like Vanguard and Mr. Brad McWasteMyTime -- Please go play that game and stop inflicting unwanted ideas on the rest of us. The game is fine the way it is - leave it alone. </blockquote> I agree, those death penalty ideas are overly complicated and don't add to fun factor, not to mention the fast majority would cringe and leave the game. The game is perfectly fine the way it is; the death penalty is more then WoW with a minor exp penalty, but its not so harsh that people are gonna just get frustrated and stop playing. Ya want stuff like that there's always Vanguard: Saga of Horsecrap. Leave ancient old-school crummy death systems in the past where they belong, they only appeal to minority hardcore EQ1 veterans who think challenge equates to tedious timesinks.

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

<p>The removal of soul shards made my guildname antiquated...wait, it's vintage now!</p><p>Filmore Graves</p><p>The Shard Collectors</p>

[Surething]

Tell you what; the marines are looking for a few good men. If you really want a meaningful death penalty they will welcome you with open arms.