The future of casual raiding? [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Thunderthyze

06-01-2007, 06:40 AM

It seems to me recently that raiders are spread too thin on each server. My comments are based on my presence on Runnyeye but I would be surprised if this is not replicated on other servers in the game.On any server you will have your "uber" raid guild. These guilds will lead the way on new content, usually being the first to take down new zones. After that each server will have 5~6 hardcore raid guilds that follow on the coat tails of the "uber". All of these raid guilds will require its members to be available for raiding at least 3~4 times per week.For the more casual player who wants to raid perhaps once or twice a week the options are becoming limited. It seems to me that even the larger non raid guilds are finding it hard to field a full x4 raid on occasions, especially now that the better weather is beginning to entice people away from the keyboards in the evenings. More and more you see raid alliances forming between the higher level guilds in an attempt to contine to offer raiding to their members.Let's be honest, pick up raids can be excrutiating and raid alliances not much better. The main reson for this is that the majority of guilds use TS or Vent in order to organise and keep the raid moving at a brisk pace. This rarely is an option for pick ups or alliances and they suffer for it comparatively.The problem is, as I see it, that there is no longer the pool of raiders available to the casual guilds. The top ten guilds (based on numbers of accounts) on any server will hold a significant percentage of the casual players but very often don't offer raiding. Outside of those you will have the experienced players who have set up their own guilds but are finding it difficult to attract sufficient numbers to go raiding on a regular basis. It is a cart and horse situation. If you can't offer raiding then you are unlikely to attract pepople who want to raid. If you can't attract those players then you won't go raiding, full stop. That is, unless you form an alliance.The best raid experiences will be obtained in guild raids. You get to know your role, you adapt to an agreed playstyle and you get things done, quickly.So what is the solution? Server merger to increase population? Don't think so, lag is quite bad enough already thank you very much. Limit guild numbers so that characters of particular levels become more concentrated? Limit guild size so that more characters float around and become available for recruitment? The problem isn't that there aren't enough casual raiders out there, it is that they are spread over too many guilds and, in many cases, because they may be their guilds they are unwilling to move to another.I don't know the answer and I would welcome suggestions or ideas to address this.

Faneth

06-01-2007, 06:44 AM

I am speaking from the Splitpaw server.Here we have several people running really nice pickup raids every week.Furthermore there are several guild who are raiding multiple times a week but do not require everyone to attend all the time.I am Amenta and we raid 4 times a week but we have also have several social members who join raids whenever there is room <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, which usually is a few times a week.If you want to raid you just have to find a suitable guild for you or try to run pickup raids yourself.

Jal

06-01-2007, 06:52 AM

On splitpaw we have a ton of regular pickup organisers for Labs, lyc, DT and recently FTH and MMIS. We have our hardcore guilds Fable, Unity, Validus and we have our more relaxed family raid guilds, Dark Haven, Equinox, The Dark Vengeance, im also in a good alliance which is picking our way through EOF nicely. Raids can be filled but recruiting will always be harder at busy times such as summer and when new games launch etc. If you cant fill for a night then there is usually plenty of pickups to choose from or simply make a list of good people to ask to fill the spots from either grouping or previous pickups.

lmhotep

06-01-2007, 07:56 AM

My best bet is that you havent found the right guild.Being one of the guildleaders of the Conglomerate of inner Light i can tell you that we are a casual guild but we do raid 3 times a week with succes.I gues it all comes down on how you run your guild. With us fun is a must but even then we can manage about any raidzone out there<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Having a core playerbase helps to, most of us are already in the guild for 2 years wich imho is a must for any guild to be succesfull.Anyways i gues what im trying to say is that there are enough guilds out there who are casual but still raid you just have to find them<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Thunderthyze

06-01-2007, 08:37 AM

Most of the comments so far seem to be singing the praises of pick up raids. This is missing the point. Yes, there are plenty of picks up out there and our members tend to do more than their fair share of organising them. My point is that pick ups are the poor, short, freckly, ginger relation. Guild raiding is SO much more rewarding and if there are so many out there attending pick ups why can't they further organise into guilds? My point was that the casual raiders are spread too thin and your comments only seem to support this.I am a leader of The Conclave, one of the biggest guilds on the server, and even we have trouble filling out a x4 sometimes. If you're in a casual guild that can field a full x4 more than once a week without outside assistance then well done, there's not many of you out there.

lmhotep

06-01-2007, 08:53 AM

I find it strange that if your one of the biggest guilds you cant fillup a 24 peeps raid.At the moment we have 64 members and easily fillup a raid 3 times a week with most of the times people on the reservelist incase of a no-show.We organize our raids on the forum where you can signup in advance for the whole month and thats been a succes for over 2 years now.Maybe its time to change some things in your signups and dedicate a raidleader incase you havent cos with that many members its very strange that you cant fillup your raids.Ofc we dont start with a full raid 100% of the time cos of reallife interfearance incase people just join in later on.

Tid

06-01-2007, 09:07 AM

TBH HM, the issue is on the Runnyeye, I tank Pick Up raids 3xtimes a week with Fouk on spiltpaw and there are other guild that also host open raids. As far a raid progression and access the Runnyeye is miles behind what is happening over here. I have only been over here a month and have already Tanked every KoS raid, where as on the Runnyeye could only get a Labs/DT if your lucky.

Thunderthyze

06-01-2007, 10:29 AM

That's interesting Tidel. Maybe there are too many hard core raid guilds back here mopping up all the available talent.Maybe our problem is that we're so casual we attract all the responsible people who don't have the time to raid. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

arvydys

06-01-2007, 03:06 PM

Holymoly@Runnyeye wrote: <blockquote>Let's be honest, pick up raids can be excrutiating and raid alliances not much better. The main reson for this is that the majority of guilds use TS or Vent in order to organise and keep the raid moving at a brisk pace. This rarely is an option for pick ups or alliances and they suffer for it comparatively.</blockquote> Your reason is wrong.A strong raid leader does NOT need TS/Vent in order to lead a raid. Attentive raiders do NOT need TS/Vent to know what they are doing. it just takes a little more effort on both the leader and the raider's parts. A raid doesnt fail because of a lack of voice com, a raid fails because of either lack of leadership or a lack of skill, attentiveness, or ability to follow instructions (or, of course, simply being overmatched).

boogar

06-01-2007, 03:30 PM

To answer the original poster's question,it's quite simple actually.Although it is up to SOE but all they have to do is add some epic x2 instanced zones instead of having every raid zone be x4 encounter's.Make the loot a little less powerfull and there you go.

Illmarr

06-01-2007, 03:32 PM

My guild that was a lot closer to bleeding edge than casual managed to get through PoP, GoD and a lot of OoW while they were still current content before WoW and EQ2 decimated it's population without Vent and TS. They are nice, but by no means necessary.

Dasein

06-01-2007, 03:37 PM

Ilmaaaaah@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote>My guild that was a lot closer to bleeding edge than casual managed to get through PoP, GoD and a lot of OoW while they were still current content before WoW and EQ2 decimated it's population without Vent and TS. They are nice, but by no means necessary.</blockquote> They aren't necessary yet, but once you start seeing integrated voice-chat systems in games (both WoW and EQ2 are heading in this direction, and we can assume most future games will feature this), then it will become a requirement.

Malchore

06-01-2007, 03:56 PM

I have experience from both sides of the coin. I'm on Nektulos server.I recently left a raid guild because there was no spot for me in the raids. Partly because my Main is a Ranger it's harder to find spots. (We're exchangable with any damage class.) But also because the guild was so large there were sometimes a full group if not more guildies standing around hoping to raid but weren't selected. (They recently tried forming a second raid force; I left before knowing what came of it.)So I left to join another raid guild that are now having problems finding peeps to fill it. These last few weeks have been visious as about 7 full-time members have been absent for many reasons, including school and new jobs etc. So we *might* get two full groups of guildies, and have to advertise on the 60-70 channel for more to join. Which means is more a PUR (pick-up raid) than guild raid.Seems I can't win lol.

StevusX

06-01-2007, 05:33 PM

Back to the Op's original point ! I think soe could do with looking at developing the area between the group instances and x4 raids as there is a huge gap here.They started with revamping the x2 guild raids but there is still a huge gulf for "casual" players between running an instance for an hour or two and committing to a "casual" x4 raid that will last 4 or more hours.... and THAT puts off so many players from raiding... In my own guild we have half the lvl 70's like myself who would like to raid a couple times a week and a sizeable faction who are put off by the lenght of time it takes. Combined with the fact that people tend to be available at different times of the week means you need a LOT of lvl 70's in a single guild. So similar to the op some weeks we can nearly fill a x4 raid ourselves, other weeks we cant fill x2. Bear in mind that the raid guilds seem to have around 40 or so members so they can fill raids so a casual guild would need a LOT more..The solution is really twofold.1 - soe should development more x2 content so that there is a more natural progression from instances to x2 to x4.2 - ultimately guilds need to merge to create guilds big enough to ensure there are enough lvl 70's about to run x4 raids. We have taken on board several small guilds in the last 2 years and i know how tough is was for them to make the decision. I would love soe to make real merging of guilds a possibility with the option to "merge" guild names and retain the guildies GSP list etc.

DragonMaster2385

06-01-2007, 05:33 PM

On Butcherblock: Pickup raids are very common for Labs and MoA, but not much else. I am in an awesome guild (The Chosen) and we raid 2-3 times a week and have no restrictions on how many times a week you have to show up. Granted, we are not the "uber" guild you speak of, but we have accomplished a lot. We do Deathtoll every Friday since a lot of people still need Claymore updates, but the rest of the raid times are switched up. Casual raiding guilds are still out there, so just keep looking.

Dasein

06-01-2007, 05:57 PM

Creating a formalized alliance system similar to what DAoC offered would be a good idea, and likely far easier than figuring out a way to handle guild mergers. Mostly, what you need is a group of dedicated and reliable players who are willing to put up with lots of early failure as they learn encounters. These players need not all be in the same guild, but what you need are 24 people who will always be there, so you can learn to work together as a single unit.

Logan

06-01-2007, 06:36 PM

The primary thing that holds me back from wanting to raid more than once a week is the length of the raids. In T5 all the raids were nice short crisp affairs. You could do 3 a night and swap people out as you went. The froglok raid and then T6 raids expanded the length of raids so only the real hardcore play all night people could endure them. That's not to say the raids were bad raids but rather the length became unrealistic for any casual guild or player. So you have a shortage since DoF of people who want to commit 4-5 hours to one raid.Even a best case scenario like Labs where lots of loot drops still hammers away at my patience. It's kind of like Unrest, its genius but its too dam long. I would raid more frequently if raids were 45-to an hour. You get to that point where killing endless trash just becomes a useless timesink. If the amount of raid zones is finite and they all get done week after week then its time to shorten them up.Sure some guilds blow through Labs in 2 hours and go do another raid but the casual guilds just can't get through it that fast.Honestly I think it's overestimated how many people actually enjoy raiding. It's just that the people who do are the loudest on the forums. I don't like raids in general but I will do one a week for variety and to get a piece of loot that will help out my soloing and grouping.We did a couple of the guild raids 3 months ago and I got all nostalgic about T5 because they were short, to the point, and fun. It would be nice to see more like that and less endurance marathons. Endless trash doesnt make a boss fight harder or easier except the mental fatigue it causes. /ramble offRhys 70 assassin kithicor, among other things

Illmarr

06-01-2007, 06:50 PM

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ilmaaaaah@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote>My guild that was a lot closer to bleeding edge than casual managed to get through PoP, GoD and a lot of OoW while they were still current content before WoW and EQ2 decimated it's population without Vent and TS. They are nice, but by no means necessary.</blockquote> They aren't necessary yet, but once you start seeing integrated voice-chat systems in games (both WoW and EQ2 are heading in this direction, and we can assume most future games will feature this), then it will become a requirement. </blockquote>But an integrated voice-chat system would be a feature of the game and not another program running in the background, right?

Stackmaster

06-01-2007, 08:09 PM

The only thing a play can do right now is find out what guilds raid and check thier guild schedual for what days the raids are. Keep notes on who to contact on what day to ensure you are in a solid raid WHEN you can play. Other wise SOE would need to impliment a system/ladder that would keep track of number of times a person has taken out a named or have some command XP system. Honestly there are enough raid guilds out there that you could do your research and make a schedual to keep your self occupied anytime you want to raid.

Gnevil

06-01-2007, 11:40 PM

<cite>Stackmaster wrote:</cite><blockquote>The only thing a play can do right now is find out what guilds raid and check thier guild schedual for what days the raids are. Keep notes on who to contact on what day to ensure you are in a solid raid WHEN you can play. Other wise SOE would need to impliment a system/ladder that would keep track of number of times a person has taken out a named or have some command XP system. Honestly there are enough raid guilds out there that you could do your research and make a schedual to keep your self occupied anytime you want to raid.</blockquote> Umm keep yourself busy by knowing the raiding guilds schedule on your server? Are you kidding me... you are assuming that they will alow you to raid with them, that they will have NBG loot rules, not dkp systems, that you are a needed class for that raid.. all of which is moot on my server. If you want to raid anything other then Labs or Lyceum you have to be in a raid guild that is hitting those other raid zones. It's a rare moon when you can get a pickup slot in a DT or higher raid that has any chance what so ever of winning. Pickup raids other then Labs or a really well run Lyceum run are at best tedious time consuming and rarely produce loot. And with the looming release of RoK and the level cap increase hardcore gear ups in Labs or Lyceum are just really not worth it. The EoF legendary is on par or better in some cases then most of what comes out of both those zones.Again just my opinion but valid non the less as I am a former EQ1 Hardcore raider where two day raids were not uncommon. Here anything outside of 3 hours and you are pushing it for the vast majority of players.... ADO (attention deficient disorder) is a major road block to the a big chunk of the non top tier guilds player base today.

PaganSaint

06-02-2007, 01:15 AM

Hell, only EH now should take anyone longer than three hours. Most of what people call the "hardcore" raid guilds raid for only two or three hours at most and clear two, three or even four zones in that time period. All EQ2 raids are casual style pretty much.

Thunderthyze

06-02-2007, 04:35 AM

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hell, only EH now should take anyone longer than three hours. Most of what people call the "hardcore" raid guilds raid for only two or three hours at most and clear two, three or even four zones in that time period. All EQ2 raids are casual style pretty much. </blockquote> Yeah, right. Thanks for the constructive post there. Thanks to everyone who HAS responded constructively on this thread. Maybe the answer at some point IS for SOE to introduce some more x2 content. Their scalable city raids were (eventually) quite successful too due, in the main, to the lack of trash that slowed the whole process down.

jsanfili

06-02-2007, 12:13 PM

Just a thought...A potentially more impactful solution would be for Devs to create a built-in raid management interface. This could be similar in concept to the Looking For Group / Group Looking For More tool, but set-up in a way where individuals can sign up over a period of time. Imagine if players and guilds alike had the ability to post future raids on a "calendar" system that is built directly into the game. The event poster (presumably the RL) could have the ability to specify class and level requirements for each of the 24 (or 12) various slots in the raid makeup. Some slots could be designated "open" to any class/level while others might be restricted to only certain classes/levels depending on how the RL wants to set the event up. Furthermore, the RL could make the entire raid (or only specified slots) either open to the public or restricted to their own guild - again depending on how the RL wants to set the event up. When slots are designated open to the public, a search feature would be available for those intersted in signing up for the raid days or even weeks ahead of time. When raid form-up time approaches, the RL could simply refer back the the interface, see who signed-up and who is online, and rattle off invites for people to form up. Of course if there are still slots open or if some don't show when it is time to start then, do what some of us do now when that happens... ask in channel, troll the LFG lists, etc. I think that by giving all players (both guilded and non guilded, both casual guilds and harcore guilds) the ability to more effectively manage their raid events using an in-game interface presents some benefits that make the whole experience more enjoyable.A few benefits to an added interface that I see to this are:1. All RLs are given the ability to designate and manage their raid structure (from a class-needed perspective) up-front. This could potentially create for more effective and fun raiding experiences. 2. Small guilds that typically manage less-than full raid sign-ups can more readily open certain slots to the public days ahead of time. No more waiting 30 mins to 1.5 hours after scheduled form-up time for needed classes from the outside to join in on the fun. 3. Non-guilded and/or guilded casual players players can more easily schedule and form pick-up raids. Possibly more effective pick-up raids due to a better managed raid strucutre... again, from a class-needed perspective. 4. Hard-core raiding guilds with lots of stand-bys would have a tool to better manage over sign-ups. Once slots are designated for a class and the raid is posted for guildies to sign-up, slots could be reserved by their guild-members on a first-come first serve basis in an automated fashion. You snooze you lose. 5. Actual form-up would be a bit easier, thus reducing wasted time - less time adminsitering and more time playing.Possible downfalls:1. This would have to be a whole new interface addition built from scratch so who knows if and when we will ever see it. 2. It is what you make of it so in order for it to be effective, people have to use. I know I would. 3. Cant think of any others, what do you think?

Ardnahoy

06-02-2007, 12:39 PM

Sorry, but I simply don't share OP's concern since my server has the lightest load of all PvE servers and I managed to find a suitable guild with little difficulty. If Sony added more x2 content, I wouldn't complain but I doubt we'd regularly do them since the current raiding content fills up our weekly raid schedule as it is.Part of progression is that you move forward. Players in guilds that do x2 raids will eventually gear up and want to progress to x4 raids. The guild will either move up, or its players will move on. Casual gamers are the death of all casual guilds. You need to be a bit more serious, and find 23 people more serious like you, in order to progress and get the phat lewts. No amount of hand-holding by Sony will bring parity to all players. If you are casual, you get casual player loot. If you are more hardcore, you get better loot. If you want to be more hardcore but can't find a decent guild, then you can try looking a little harder or maybe transfer to another server. Hoping for more x2 content is only a temporary patch to the problem, not a solution.

Sandain666

06-02-2007, 01:12 PM

From Splitpaw"The main reson for this is that the majority of guilds use TS or Vent in order to organise and keep the raid moving at a brisk pace" I have been in several raid guilds in EQ1 and EQ2 .This is not true in the least. You need good raid leaders who know how to communicate"The problem isn't that there aren't enough casual raiders out there, it is that they are spread over too many guilds and, in many cases, because they may be their guilds they are unwilling to move to another."Why is this Sony's or anyone else's problem to solve? If people are not motivated enough or too lazy to create raid alliances or merge guilds on their own this is not Sony's problem. What status you lose can be regained quickly enough. "It seems to me that even the larger non raid guilds are finding it hard to field a full x4 raid on occasions... "If you join a non-raid guild what do you expect? Of course you are going to have problems filling raids because raiding is not the primary motivation for people joining a non-raid guild! Is Sony now supposed to put in alot of 2xgroup stuff so high end raiders can dominate this content with single groups?

Kellin

06-02-2007, 02:02 PM

Perma has pickup raids going on all the time. So there's no lack of people wanting to raid. Mostly Labs and MoAx4, but I see people doing Lyceum, Terrorantula, and a couple of others. Labs is popular because it's easy and has tons of loot. My guild is tiny and very insular, but some of us do enjoy raiding occasionally. We were fortunate to hook up with a larger guild and get into a raid alliance of sorts. The raid is filled with alliance people first, and any open spots are filled by pickups. Misbehaving folks don't get invited to the next raid. It's worked very well. We have three regular raids a week, and the occasional off-day raid. The large guild in the alliance is using it as an opportunity to find new recruits. Our guild gets to gear up and finish those pesky epic-level quests. It's getting to the point now that an unknown pickup player is a rarity on our raids. The answer isn't just making more x2 raids. It's also in connecting with others on your server with the same goals.

simpwrx02

06-02-2007, 02:18 PM

A lot of ideas posted here may seem great, but if you honestly look at it from the other side of the semi hardcore raid guild, almost all of them use a dkp system, which means that normally no one outside of the guild, or if outside guild is used then they have to raid a few times to even be able to bid on the loot. If you want to raid join a raid guild there are various levels of hardcoreness. If you only want to do an occassional raid like once or twice a month then be in a casual guild and try to form a pickup raid. Teamspeak/vent is not the reason most raid guilds dont use people outside thier guild, imho itis thier dkp system.However, dont expect the raid guilds to do any type of pick up raid, most will raid with 18 people of all guildies rather than get people from outside the guild. One of the other factors is player skill, if I was a raid leader I would want players that I know have a clue on how to play thier class, that is the key to success. I am not saying that you have to be in a raid guild to know your class, mostly I am saying that you know the skill level of the people in your guild you have raided with, and being great at herioc instances is a good foundation, but raiding is a totally different beast. I learned that I was lacking so much when I started raiding, i play a wizzy and before i started raiding it was rare for me not to be top dog on every single dps parse, in a raid I was not even close to the top when i started, i didnt have the skill or knowledge of my class for raiding. I had joined a very casual raid guild that used /random for loot with a modified dkp system, after a bit of time the guild changed to a more standard dkp system, adn from the time I joined to the time I left we used almost exclusively guild members, we did form a slight alliance with a smll guild who didnt mind only raiding with us if we had room, the benefit for them was that we beefed up thier weekly labs raid and helped them succeed. After a few raids and reading my class boards I moved to top raid dps, and since switched to a more hardcore guild where I am once again not top dps, but I hold my own.Go ahead and flame me all you want, but realize I only speak the truth.

kenm

06-02-2007, 02:26 PM

<cite>Logannx wrote:</cite><blockquote>The primary thing that holds me back from wanting to raid more than once a week is the length of the raids. In T5 all the raids were nice short crisp affairs. You could do 3 a night and swap people out as you went. The froglok raid and then T6 raids expanded the length of raids so only the real hardcore play all night people could endure them. That's not to say the raids were bad raids but rather the length became unrealistic for any casual guild or player. So you have a shortage since DoF of people who want to commit 4-5 hours to one raid.Even a best case scenario like Labs where lots of loot drops still hammers away at my patience. It's kind of like Unrest, its genius but its too dam long. I would raid more frequently if raids were 45-to an hour. You get to that point where killing endless trash just becomes a useless timesink. If the amount of raid zones is finite and they all get done week after week then its time to shorten them up.Sure some guilds blow through Labs in 2 hours and go do another raid but the casual guilds just can't get through it that fast.Honestly I think it's overestimated how many people actually enjoy raiding. It's just that the people who do are the loudest on the forums. I don't like raids in general but I will do one a week for variety and to get a piece of loot that will help out my soloing and grouping.We did a couple of the guild raids 3 months ago and I got all nostalgic about T5 because they were short, to the point, and fun. It would be nice to see more like that and less endurance marathons. Endless trash doesnt make a boss fight harder or easier except the mental fatigue it causes. /ramble offRhys 70 assassin kithicor, among other things</blockquote>There's already some very short raids in the game. Clockwork menace takes no more than 10-15 minutes to clear. This is because the zone actually has a timer and you're forced to do it in such a time frame. Chel'Drak is also a 15 minute raid, no more than a few trash mobs and then the encounter itself. And honestly, what does being casual have to do with being able to clear raid zones faster? Knowing the encounters, having a good raid setup, and simply playing well. Those are what determines how fast you clear raid zones, it's entirely unrelated to being casual or not. With that out of the way, Freethinkers Hideout takes about an hour to clear. Mistmoore Inner Sanctum takes about an hour and a half as well. Heck, I'm sure they're possible to clear much faster as well. With Emerald Halls being the only zone that takes longer than an hour and a half, how can you say you want less of that and more shorter raids? Surely the game should have some long raids to please the hardcore as well as the casual, yet the majority of the content is casual as is. And on the matter of guilds being casual, our schedule on worthwhile content had been boiled down to this with lockouts fit together perfectly. Day 1: Chel'Drak: 15 minutes. Freethinkers: 1 hour. Clockwork Menace: 15 minutes. Day 2: Mistmoore Inner Sanctum: 1 1/2 hours. 3 hours of raiding in two days, and clearing every worthwhile instance except for Emerald Halls. Wouldn't that make us casual? And actually, since Clockwork Menace and Freethinkers are shorter lockouts, you generally have 3 hours of raiding spread out over three different days. I'd say the real issue here is even while raiding casually you get stuck with 4-5 days with nothing to do but EH! I love EH, but I'd like more variety. Excuse the long response, I'm just not really understanding the length argument. I see loads of people using it, yet the actual content in the game contradicts the argument. The real issue seems to be the lack of raid content in the first place, it's impossible to actually raid worthwhile content 7 days a week. If there was actually an abundance of raid content where you could raid for 2-3 hours every day I'm sure there'd be more raiders. Both casual and hardcore alike.

BossCre

06-02-2007, 03:05 PM

As probably one of the longest standing original leaders of a guild formed in November of 2004 on the Crushbone server and a long-time player of various styles on EQ1 (including a 1.5-year stretch with officership in Midwinter, a once-"uber" raiding guild on the former Kane Bayle server), I have seen a great many things happen to the scene of online games and the online community in general. Attention spans grow short, people do not appreciate the time that others give to them in a raiding situation (even if those others are receiving benefit from it themselves), and several communities have dropped considerably in maturity level. Certain elements of game design do this, but for the most part, it's just the people. The point in messages like this one, which involve more than a couple of well-structured sentences, is often lost as a result of the above mentioned bits.Pick-up raids, while effective in some cases, subtract from the casual community perhaps as much as they add, if not more. I do not lead my guild with an iron fist, and it is silly for any leader in an online gaming community to feel they can do so, what with the plethora of other choices everyone has in how they play. It's not as if one can reach through someone's screen and beat them into submission. I lead my guild into raids twice per week, as it seems to be all that my members' real lives will allow. At first, I did not have much of a problem with members seeking to attend pick-up raids during our off-times, because it would allow them to experience content and a more active raiding schedule without leaving the guild.My outlook on that began to change as my guild began to progress (we're now into Deathtoll by our own efforts). We would begin to form for a raid, and people would be locked out of our destination, despite knowing the guild's goals and raiding schedule and objectives. This would cause enmity and a bit of discord within the guild. One can pin this on anything, and probably will in little quotes later on in this topic with misinterpreted pieces of what I've said here. It is ultimately the choice of people, and that's something that people seem to like to have.I don't really have any solutions for this problem, simply because a lot of said solutions have never really been seen or introduced into the game, regardless of any merit they might have. For example, I could suggest that lockout timers be taken out of the game, and it would receive a lot of player rants and flames and whatever, and any supporting points would be lost in the deluge. It would be said that it would allow the "ubers" to gain loot to quickly and allow lesser guilds to exploit this or that, and etcetra. "Ubers" will obtain all of this loot anyway, people will still complain, and the game will keep most of its player base regardless of changes like that, big or small. In fact, this little bit of the post will probably be quoted by someone later, as it if was the bulk of what I had to say. This is not the case...it's merely an example.Half of what I would have to say here in reply to the praises of pick-up raids and guild alliances would be that they defeat the purpose of a guild atmosphere. I am a busy man in real life, but I do like my games...this being one of them. I find it difficult at times to fill the needs of my own guild, let alone supporting any other guild in an alliance or the like. Alliances breed drama, no matter how wonderful the relationship between guilds is. As a casual raiding guild, it takes long enough to outfit one guild, especially when people leave to join any one of several hundred other guilds for whatever reason. Adding another casual raiding guild to the mix does not help solve for this, rather it increases the number of people who need to be geared up before taking on anything harder.Creating content for X2 would likely not help, due to the horrible loot tables that already plague the current state of the game. There are some nice pieces of fabled loot out there, but most of the entry-level and even some moderate X4 raid loot is made useless due to some of the heroic instance loot found elsewhere. Normal X4 raids take just that amount of groups to get it done in any kind of reasonable time frame. Introducing more X2 content would just leave people out, as guilds might tend to fall back on that when they have 18 people or even 19-20 with no more than 4 healers when forming for a raid.I see what frustrations the original poster has in this matter. My guild has absorbed several guilds during its existence, and recruiting becomes harder, as there are probably over 800 guilds now on the Crushbone server. We have a pretty large roster, but few of these people are active, and 18-24 people show up to raid on our raid days anymore, so there's a chance that a raid might not happen even then.Again, it seems like a post mostly lost to critique and ideas that the developers will never see. Even if they do, it's not likely it could be reasonably and quickly addressed, because it seems that whenever someone mentions that something is out of place, the developers find the best way to make something worse for people so that they can appreciate the status quo a little bit more.

Sandain666

06-02-2007, 03:15 PM

Kenman@Najena wrote: <blockquote> Excuse the long response, I'm just not really understanding the length argument. I see loads of people using it, yet the actual content in the game contradicts the argument. The real issue seems to be the lack of raid content in the first place, it's impossible to actually raid worthwhile content 7 days a week. If there was actually an abundance of raid content where you could raid for 2-3 hours every day I'm sure there'd be more raiders. Both casual and hardcore alike. </blockquote> Casual raiders are using the length arguement because it takes them lots longer to initially learn how to beat new zones and mobs since they invest less time in learing these encounters than hard core raiders. It is not unusaul to see casual raiders log off after failing encounters 2 or 3 times.

Giral

06-02-2007, 04:18 PM

think there are to many guild's with to few people in them , and only 1 or 2 people in each of them might want to raid go take a look at the Server communty forum, and click on any Sever name , each server has alot of guild's looking to recruit people If you have 500 small casual guild's, with 10 to 20 people in them , with only 5 to 8 of them active most of the time, and you want to raid then IMO and its not easy for everyone, but you need to look into joining a Guild that is seriously seeking to actively casualy raid. there are a Bunch of guild's on each server looking to raid, seeking More meber's, with a bit of effort, reading there guild main pages, talking to there Recruiter's, and maybe even flip flopping thru a few guild's till you find one that actualy is raiding even tho there short some key classes, clearing alot of the stuff in raid zones even if they dont clear the WHOLE raid(like clearing 80 % of HOS but not everyname YET or clearing all of Lab;s except last 2 names YET. etc...) i don't see it as SOE's job to do Something about Casual raiding , becuase you have thousand's of people spread to thin between a zillion tiny guild's, and they don't want to leave there guild and go search for a more active casual raiding guild, there are Good active casual raiding guild's that Are seeking More member's on your serverif your not getting what you want out of your guild, keep looking till you find one that has Just what your looking for, took me over a year to find a guild that has everything im looking for in a casual raiding guild and Time well very well spent take all the casual people that are joining these pick up raid's, make a list of them, and turn them into a casual raiding force. you could all be in difrent guild's but still be a raid force that always raid's together seen a few Pick up raid's that have returning people that wind up turning into a casual raid guild im pretty sure alot of people have Alt's, if your Main toon isnt needed right off the Bat for raiding, level up an alt thats a more needed class to raid, get into raiding with it, and then when your guild is clearing these zones EASY, you can bring your Main toon to raid , (example, you dont need 5 guardian's in a raid, but when you progress thru raid's, and your raid force gets geared up, you Can go back and clear Lab's with 5 guardians in the raid) and this way you have 2 raiding toons instead of one (most Pick up raid's wind up bieng Heavy in one class, you cant clear a raid zone with 20 healers , or 20 tanks) time to Make it happen, and not wait for Soe to do something about it. with the Level cap going up in 4 month's the casual guild's will be able to go clear DT,HOS,LOA,,etc,,, alot of casual guilds are clearing these already, but when they are level 75+ you will be able to clear all the T7 raid zones with a less then perfect raid force(3 guards,3 healers,6 rangers ,etc,,,) just like people still go back an clear Courts with 2 group's . currently Labs can be cleared with less then 4 full raid group's by casual raiding guild's in a mix of fabled /legendary, adpt3/masterd

Eugam

06-04-2007, 05:03 AM

Future ? Well *cough* raids are boring like hell. Best fun i had was in super heroic zones or new zones after release (oob, cov). But once you have been through and know the place you can beat it any time. Raids are all completely static scripts. People only go there to help guild, to get items and AA. They are boring, thats why the RL ahs to care so much and why so many people are not realy awake of even ninja AFK. What EQ2 realy needs are dynamic and scaling zones. - selection on enter if easy, medium or hard. - selection on enter if x1, x2 or x4 - Zones scale. means if you are lvl90 and select easy on an old T7 zone its lvl 85. Mobs are never placed in the same position. They should be placed intelligent but random. That way a zone would be always new and, to some degree, challanging. Raid mobs shouldnt drop anything but raid tokens. A x4 endboss drops 50, the same boss at x2 drops 25 and the same in x1 drops 12. Everyone in raid gets his fair share of tokens after raid. Once you earned enough tokens you can go and buy something fabled at the city merchant. That way we get rid of those BS DKP systems too <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Oh.. and those tokens are no-trade off course <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Timaarit

06-04-2007, 05:33 AM

<cite>Logannx wrote:</cite><blockquote>The primary thing that holds me back from wanting to raid more than once a week is the length of the raids. In T5 all the raids were nice short crisp affairs. You could do 3 a night and swap people out as you went. Rhys 70 assassin kithicor, among other things</blockquote>One thing you need to remember is that while you did 3 t5 raids on one night, you only got 3 chests from them. In t6 and t7, you can get far more drops within the same timeframe as you did in t5. You can also swap people out midraid in most zones. Take FTH for example, you get to the first named in a matter of minutes. The second and 3rd take a bit more time which is comparable to moving from one instance to another. Or Labs, killing the trash between the nameds takes much less time than moving from one instance to another. So if someone doesn't have time to do a full zone, they can usually be swapped out midraid, just like swapping people out after each zone in t5.

Tid

06-04-2007, 05:50 AM

<cite>Eugam wrote:</cite><blockquote>Future ? Well *cough* raids are boring like hell. Best fun i had was in super heroic zones or new zones after release (oob, cov). But once you have been through and know the place you can beat it any time. Raids are all completely static scripts. People only go there to help guild, to get items and AA. They are boring, thats why the RL ahs to care so much and why so many people are not realy awake of even ninja AFK. </blockquote>Any chance you play a DPS class at raids? <img src="/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Eugam

06-04-2007, 06:27 AM

Tidel@Splitpaw wrote: <blockquote><cite>Eugam wrote:</cite><blockquote>Future ? Well *cough* raids are boring like hell. Best fun i had was in super heroic zones or new zones after release (oob, cov). But once you have been through and know the place you can beat it any time. Raids are all completely static scripts. People only go there to help guild, to get items and AA. They are boring, thats why the RL ahs to care so much and why so many people are not realy awake of even ninja AFK. </blockquote>Any chance you play a DPS class at raids? <img src="/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>Hehe, nope. Warden (MT and dps crowd) and Illusionist most of the time. My mystic hit 70 yesterday and so i will raid with him for a while. Yes, raid tanking isnt that easy. But its about sterile stuff like splitting, holding aggro or directing the crowd <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. And thats it. Never had that thrill like in CMM after the 2nd add and still living <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And i was completely out of mind after mezzing through Nizara the first time. This is really some adrenaline, and i dont get that out of raids.

Jal

06-04-2007, 06:37 AM

Youve been on the wrong raids then.

Tash 1

06-04-2007, 07:39 AM

Also from Runnyeye I can't say that it works for everyone, but for us an alliance worked perfect. We are 4 guilds that have formed a raid alliance with a shared calendar and raid forum. In this way we can raid 2-4 times a week. But no one is forced to raid if they don't want. We are not a hardcore raid guild and never will be. We raid since its fun and we want every one to have the chance. We know it will take longer for us to gear up all players and that our raid progression will be slower but hmmmm we have fun <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I guess some people say it would be better to have all 4 guilds as one? But that would result in over 200 members! And that's pretty boring to. Or form a guild with just the once that want to raid ... eh but then we would be a hard core raid guild <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I know there are other guilds at Runnyeye looking for alliances. (We can't have more guilds atm since we always have more people that want to join raids then we have room) So an idea can be to call out for an alliance. Or one can always ask another guild if a merge can be done. But honestly very few like to abandon a guild that they put so much effort into./Tash

Eugam

06-04-2007, 08:00 AM

Kallarn@Splitpaw wrote: <blockquote>Youve been on the wrong raids then. </blockquote>Nah... I raided with truewatch and i raided with unity. Its a different experience, but the raid encounters are the same. Its all so technically, without elements of improvisation. No ambushing out of the blue, no dynamics. Every zone is static and evryone knwos which mob sits around the next corner. Thinking into the future (topic) i would like to have dynamic zones where no raid is like the others. But enough of derailing... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Roriondesexiest

06-04-2007, 10:53 AM

Really depends on servers I suppose.on LDL the whimpy RP server we have one uber guild, 5-6 raid guilds/groups5-6 non-raid guilds clearing most of KoSReally the only people having issues finding raids are tanks as there are always too many of them.

Logan

06-04-2007, 05:32 PM

Oh ya there was only 3 or 4 chests per night like 1 or 2per raid if you were lucky in the old t5 raids. But nothing is wrong with that when they are fun and short. Was also nice to see not everyone and 3 of their alts in full suits of fabled. At the time I liked that the stuff was more rare anyways. Now I think it's much better that fabled is more available. Still would like to see shorter raids. Even if zones were split up into several raids. I have to agree with the poster that said raiding is boring especially the zones with trash upon trash between each named. Sure you can swap people out anytime even in current raids but short durations allow for more planned removals and additions of people. Even though its really no different it's easier on peoples ego's to to get swapped out between raids rather than mid raid where youd miss the boss encounter at the end.What I'd really like to see for raiding besides shorter raids is all loot moved to specialty vendors and mobs just drop like dragon scales or claws or whatever that get distributed to people on raids then you turn them in for loot that you can pick. But that was a digression, oops.More raids, but shorter raids. I'd like to feel like I accomplished something not endured something.Rhys 70 Assassin Kithicor

SignumX

06-04-2007, 05:40 PM

When was the last time raiding content was even added to the game? Instead we get Neriak, and DFC revamps sure their nice but used up and spit out in a matter of weeks. Its time for an all raid expansion like Planes of Power. There has been more then enough for the lowbies, if they even exist anymore.

Logan

06-04-2007, 06:32 PM

An all raid expasnion would be feeding such a small % of the population. Take a look at PoP in eq1 especially as it was first implemented. 2 maybe 3 guilds per server were in the elementals and maybe 1 in PoTime. Then some access restrictions were removed but still you werent that crowded in the planes. What is the point of that much content that hardly anyone gets to play? Status for oober leet dudes and all that special loot. But for maybe 200 people per server(in eq1) it just doesn't make sense. Even in eq2 your hardcore raid crowd is not that big even among level 70s and is a drop in the bucket if you include all levels. it's quite clear that not everyone wants to raid even at level 70, especially in a more casual playstyle like eq2 fosters.Rhys 70 Assassin, Kithicor

Raveller

06-04-2007, 06:47 PM

Something I haven't seen mentioned here is how raiding guilds ('uber', hard-core, or just raiding-focused) have changed their memebership recruitment focus. Once upon a time (pre-EQ2), guilds into raiding would recruit players, including lowbie n00bs, into the guild and organize lowbie raids. By teaching n00bs how to raid, helping them progress through all available level-appropriate raids, and evaluating them for who would make the cut, the guilds always had members ready to go on raids without anyone feeling like they were committed to a job.These days guild recruitment posts look more like help wanted ads.

Vorlak

06-04-2007, 07:14 PM

I dont see any future for those in causual guilds who want to do nothing about there future, but i see a bight fun future for those who are in casual guilds and are going to do something about it. The game in which you play is up to how you play it and what you do to make it.Guilds are a group of players who share the same goal as one another. Some times you need to "boot" the dead weight and by dead weight i dont mean just those that dont show up, I mean those who suck at raiding as well. I can tell you right now a major issue with my previous guild was the healers, in my new guild we raid with less healers and accomplish alot more in 1 night. If you have people that suck even if they are your buddies you need to learn to boot them or have them talk to somebody who knows what they are doing.I know that for some guilds certain classes are a major issue like priest that know what they are doing. -Your raid is only as strong as your weakest member.

kenm

06-04-2007, 07:18 PM

<cite>Logannx wrote:</cite><blockquote>An all raid expasnion would be feeding such a small % of the population. Take a look at PoP in eq1 especially as it was first implemented. 2 maybe 3 guilds per server were in the elementals and maybe 1 in PoTime. Then some access restrictions were removed but still you werent that crowded in the planes. What is the point of that much content that hardly anyone gets to play? Status for oober leet dudes and all that special loot. But for maybe 200 people per server(in eq1) it just doesn't make sense. Even in eq2 your hardcore raid crowd is not that big even among level 70s and is a drop in the bucket if you include all levels. it's quite clear that not everyone wants to raid even at level 70, especially in a more casual playstyle like eq2 fosters.Rhys 70 Assassin, Kithicor</blockquote>Ehh, nearly every level 70 I randomly inspect at QH at any given time of the day has at least several pieces of fabled gear. Nearly every under level 70 player I see is an alt of somebody that is a level 70. It would honestly seem that the non-raiders are in the minority, at least there's a heck of a lot more than people still in tier 1-2 to get use out of Neriak without making a new character! So what's the point in lowbie content that nobody really gets to play, and those that make new characters to experience it outlevel it in less than a week? If there was a massive expansion with nothing but raid content starting at DT level and up, there'd be about 20 guilds per server getting use out of it. Certainly not a small amount of the population, considering some of these guilds are bound to be massive casual ones with ~80 different people they swap in and out for different raids! Now on the other hand, I see single pickup groups for Unrest or OoB take all night spamming in 60-69 to form up, like it's incredibly hard for them to find people for easy group instances. /boggle Admittedly there's no way an expansion can do all raiding and raise the level cap, but there honestly should be more raid content added to the game. The amount of focus SOE puts on revamping and adding lowbie zones time and time again is insane, and what do they do for raiders? Don't tell me "Oh, they gave you Lyceum and HoS in KoS!" because those were actually intended to be in at launch but the expansion was rushed out with raid content neglected as usual.

Raveller

06-04-2007, 07:31 PM

Kenman@Najena wrote: <blockquote><cite>Logannx wrote:</cite><blockquote>An all raid expasnion would be feeding such a small % of the population. Take a look at PoP in eq1 especially as it was first implemented. 2 maybe 3 guilds per server were in the elementals and maybe 1 in PoTime. Then some access restrictions were removed but still you werent that crowded in the planes. What is the point of that much content that hardly anyone gets to play? Status for oober leet dudes and all that special loot. But for maybe 200 people per server(in eq1) it just doesn't make sense. Even in eq2 your hardcore raid crowd is not that big even among level 70s and is a drop in the bucket if you include all levels. it's quite clear that not everyone wants to raid even at level 70, especially in a more casual playstyle like eq2 fosters.Rhys 70 Assassin, Kithicor</blockquote>Ehh, nearly every level 70 I randomly inspect at QH at any given time of the day has at least several pieces of fabled gear. Nearly every under level 70 player I see is an alt of somebody that is a level 70. It would honestly seem that the non-raiders are in the minority... </blockquote>You live in an incredibly small world, don't you?

kenm

06-04-2007, 07:32 PM

Gargamel

06-04-2007, 11:56 PM

Casual raiding on AB can be a bit tough, but it really depends on what is being raided.It seems that casual raids are always doing labs, and some even do LoA, but beyond that its rare. The EoF raiding seems to be beyond Antonia Bayle 'casual' raiding community currently. What eq2 needs is an integrated raiding tool. Something like a calendar system where you can post events, and people can sign up to fill a needed role. Allow RL to feedback people, mark those that don't show up or are late, perhaps even put in an optional DKP system people can make use of.All of it is done already, but by 3rd parties, and guilds on their own. Which is great for them, but something integrated into the game would expose thousands of more people (espically the 'casual' people) to the ability. I look at the recent improvements to the LFG system as hopefully a start in that direction.On AB, for the past year or so I've been raiding with "The League" which is an open raiding alliance. Anyone on AB can join, its mostly small guilds that can't raid on their own, or larger guilds who don't raid every week, or just solo players who want to raid but can't commit to the 5-6 days a week some 'raid guilds' require. You basically join the site and then sign up for raids you want/can attend, but no pressure (other than showing up if you sign up or at least letting RL know if you can't make it) But we did have to develop our own calendar tool to schedule events and take sign-ups. Also had to do a looting system (not DKP but just gives you higher chance the more raids you attend and/or don't win anything). It all works very well, its just a shame that SoE can't get on the ball and do something like it in game. (Check sig for website if you want to check it out)

Decad

06-05-2007, 12:22 AM

Kenman@Najena wrote: <blockquote><cite>Raveller wrote:</cite><blockquote>Kenman@Najena wrote: <blockquote><cite>Logannx wrote:</cite><blockquote>An all raid expasnion would be feeding such a small % of the population. Take a look at PoP in eq1 especially as it was first implemented. 2 maybe 3 guilds per server were in the elementals and maybe 1 in PoTime. Then some access restrictions were removed but still you werent that crowded in the planes. What is the point of that much content that hardly anyone gets to play? Status for oober leet dudes and all that special loot. But for maybe 200 people per server(in eq1) it just doesn't make sense. Even in eq2 your hardcore raid crowd is not that big even among level 70s and is a drop in the bucket if you include all levels. it's quite clear that not everyone wants to raid even at level 70, especially in a more casual playstyle like eq2 fosters.Rhys 70 Assassin, Kithicor</blockquote>Ehh, nearly every level 70 I randomly inspect at QH at any given time of the day has at least several pieces of fabled gear. Nearly every under level 70 player I see is an alt of somebody that is a level 70. It would honestly seem that the non-raiders are in the minority... </blockquote>You live in an incredibly small world, don't you?</blockquote>No, actually, I spend most of my time sitting in QH locked out of every instance worthwhile. I inspect *everybody* that I see, and honestly most people have fabled gear. </blockquote>I honestly think that has a lot more to do with the way the past expansions have been released. By the time RoK is released, I think it's going to be almsot a year and a half since the last level cap increase. What I think you are experiencing are players such as myself who aren't really hardcore, and not yet really "casual", who in a more traditional expansion release cycle who might only have one piece of "fabled" gear on them. However, because of the way the expansions have been released, these "moderate" players have been able to catch the level cap, and have been able to get into more raids than they would have normally, since they still aren't chasing the level cap.Edit: and to be honest, IIRC the Devs initially didn't want KoS to have a level cap increase because internal stats showed that most players were still behind on the level cap. However the design of the expansion essentially lent itself to a need for a level cap, so they increased the level cap. So it ruined thier plans of alternating expansions increase and not increaseing the level cap.

Birn

06-05-2007, 12:58 AM

I hope they will add some X2 content for us casual raiders, especially now during the summer since many people are out doing other things making it even harder to form a raid party.

Rigormortises

06-05-2007, 01:35 AM

<cite>Raveller wrote:</cite><blockquote>Kenman@Najena wrote: <blockquote><cite>Logannx wrote:</cite><blockquote>An all raid expasnion would be feeding such a small % of the population. Take a look at PoP in eq1 especially as it was first implemented. 2 maybe 3 guilds per server were in the elementals and maybe 1 in PoTime. Then some access restrictions were removed but still you werent that crowded in the planes. What is the point of that much content that hardly anyone gets to play? Status for oober leet dudes and all that special loot. But for maybe 200 people per server(in eq1) it just doesn't make sense. Even in eq2 your hardcore raid crowd is not that big even among level 70s and is a drop in the bucket if you include all levels. it's quite clear that not everyone wants to raid even at level 70, especially in a more casual playstyle like eq2 fosters.Rhys 70 Assassin, Kithicor</blockquote>Ehh, nearly every level 70 I randomly inspect at QH at any given time of the day has at least several pieces of fabled gear. Nearly every under level 70 player I see is an alt of somebody that is a level 70. It would honestly seem that the non-raiders are in the minority... </blockquote>You live in an incredibly small world, don't you?</blockquote>Think of Pop today, and the longevity that expansion had though. An all raid expansion would not be that bad if you think about it. While the "uber" guilds will chew up all the conent right away, only a couple guilds will make it to the top quickly, but what about a year from now? How many then? I know people today who still raid elementals and PoTime.... now thats longevity of content. So in essince PoP was for everyone, who cares if you were not the first or if you were 400th there? The point is, its there for everyone who wants to try raid content which is part of the game. I am a casual raider, I raid maybe once or twice a week. My guild is Just breaking into EoF content. I would love to see a raid based expansion. I won't beat it quick, It will probably take a while for me to get to the top, maybe years, but the conent will be there for me to try and accomplish. And who knows, maybe one day you will raid a day or two out of the week as well <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Raveller

06-05-2007, 03:06 AM