ShadowKnights in Raids

[Squigglle]

Everyone tells me sk's are useless in raids, is this true? becuase i got a llv 51 wizard, 43 ranger and 37sk and i want to raid ALOT when i hit higher lvls. between the ranger and sk whih do you think is more picked for raiding?

[Controlor]

<cite>Squigglle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Everyone tells me sk's are useless in raids, is this true? becuase i got a llv 51 wizard, 43 ranger and 37sk and i want to raid ALOT when i hit higher lvls. between the ranger and sk whih do you think is more picked for raiding?</blockquote>ranger picked more than sk for raids.

[TheGeneral]

You bring despoil and death march.  Many other classes that bring way more to a raid.  Sad, but true.

[Antryg Mistrose]

I wouldn't say useless.  But 90% of the time a raid only really <b>NEEDS ONE </b>fighter. 24 classes in the game, 6 of them fighters - you see the problem. The 2nd and any subsequent fighters need to justify their inclusion over 18 other classes all of which have better buffs and DPS (or both), and will have to somehow magically maintain high DPS AND be ready to instantly take over if the MT goes down, from a position of inferior buffs and gear ...    Very hard for a SK - Gear and AA choices are required to DPS and different gear and AA choices are required to raid tank.  Berserkers on the other hand, can do quite decent DPS, offering the raid comparable group buffs, WITHOUT having to completely [Removed for Content] themselves for tanking.  Fair? no, but thats the current state of the game. Group wise - no problem.  But forget about ever being desired in raids over your other chars.  100% cast iron guarantee. Still, it could be worse - you could be a brawler, then even groups won't want you unless they are desperate (or you have worked your butt off to get a good reputation).

[Squigglle]

i think the next expansion will give the profs that are not good for raiding some raiding tools. sk will probably get some more group procs and maybe some group syphons. well i decided im going to work on my ranger insteadm but slowly work on the sk. im hoping the ranger will get me raid spots.

[Grimm79]

<p>I wouldnt write us off that easily, as a guild we often raid with 4 tanks I'm usualy in a  support role in MT group or MA or backup tank in another group.  Even DPS whise we can add a fair amount, it might not be top of the parses but I generaly hover around in the lowerhalf of the top 10 with a  raid total dps of 24 K. Maybe the hardcore guilds have a bunch more dps, I really dont know but we seem to be doing just fine, cleared FTH, CMF, and are now attempting Mayong in MIS. For a casual guild this isnt too bad in my humble opinion. </p>

[Antryg Mistrose]

<cite>Grimm79 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I wouldnt write us off that easily, as a guild we often raid with 4 tanks I'm usualy in a  support role in MT group or MA or backup tank in another group.  Even DPS whise we can add a fair amount, it might not be top of the parses but I generaly hover around in the lowerhalf of the top 10 with a  raid total dps of 24 K. Maybe the hardcore guilds have a bunch more dps, I really dont know but we seem to be doing just fine, cleared FTH, CMF, and are now attempting Mayong in MIS. For a casual guild this isnt too bad in my humble opinion. </p></blockquote> Remove yourself (and 2 of the other tanks - with the possible exception of a berserker in a melee group) and put in any scout or mage class and the raids OVERALL DPS will go up. We also raid with 4-5 tanks which is why our dps is only around the same as yours.

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

<p>No, it's not true. Chances are you might have an easier time finding a spot with your other 2 classes, but I don't know any of the real raid oriented SKs in my circles that had problems getting into raid guilds, or snagging raid spots.</p>

[Antryg Mistrose]

CHIMPNOODLE. wrote: <blockquote><p>No, it's not true. Chances are you might have an easier time finding a spot with your other 2 classes, but I don't know any of the real raid oriented SKs in my circles that had problems getting into raid guilds, or snagging raid spots.</p></blockquote> So when was the last time you saw a raid guild looking for a non-fabled plate tank?  (note the OPs level)

[DjVacant]

<p>Useless?  No.  But as a toon taking up a raid's DPS slot, he will never be taken seriously.  As much as I hate paladins, they're really the only plate tank that's worth having along in a non-tanking role.  The SK can be replaced extremely well by any other DPS class.  It's a fact of life I had to face and though it sucked, switching to a warlock helped my raidforce way more than the SK's utility package.</p><p>That doesn't mean that SKs do not have a lot in life.  Along with probably being THE best instance tank, they're plat farming gods.  My SK has made me more easy cash than I can imagine...what a monster.  </p><p>The ranger, however, is probably one of the easiest DPS classes to play effectively, and should always put up strong damage.  He's good enough to potentially get some great buffs from other classes (unlike the SK who has to beg for such things), and, as a T1 DPS class, will always be welcome in a raid force.</p><p> So...if you plan on soloing for cash/items...stick with a SK for at least that.  But if you just want a melee DPS character for a raidforce...go with the ranger.  </p>

[Deaudlus]

<cite>DjVacant wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Useless?  No.  But as a toon taking up a raid's DPS slot, he will never be taken seriously.  As much as I hate paladins, they're really the only plate tank that's worth having along in a non-tanking role.  </p></blockquote>Out of curiosity, why is that?  My SK is only lvl 24 and I have very limited experience with paladins.  What does the Pally have that the SK doesn't that makes him more welcome in a raid?

[Tyrani]

<cite>Deaudlus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>DjVacant wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Useless?  No.  But as a toon taking up a raid's DPS slot, he will never be taken seriously.  As much as I hate paladins, they're really the only plate tank that's worth having along in a non-tanking role.  </p></blockquote>Out of curiosity, why is that?  My SK is only lvl 24 and I have very limited experience with paladins.  What does the Pally have that the SK doesn't that makes him more welcome in a raid? </blockquote><p> Direct / group heals, amends (somewhat), and decent dps when specc'd properly.</p><p>I think the main thing with SKs and raiding guilds is the stigma that they have because they used to bring nothing to the table and the fact that a lot of "raid" guilds look to min/max and SKs are rarely considered to be viable in those situations.</p>

[Oakum]

<cite>Deaudlus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>DjVacant wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Useless?  No.  But as a toon taking up a raid's DPS slot, he will never be taken seriously.  As much as I hate paladins, they're really the only plate tank that's worth having along in a non-tanking role.  </p></blockquote>Out of curiosity, why is that?  My SK is only lvl 24 and I have very limited experience with paladins.  What does the Pally have that the SK doesn't that makes him more welcome in a raid? </blockquote>As a warden who casual raids I can answer part of that. Amends for a high dps class like brigand or wizard, resurrecting dead raid members in a fight, and can emergancy heal other people or himself. Correct me if I am wrong but your lifetap only heals yourself. On the other hand, a SK can use deathmarch for emergancy aggro if the MT goes down I believe and both crusader classes have the no fear AA which is good for named that fear on pulls.

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

Antryg Mistrose wrote: <blockquote>CHIMPNOODLE. wrote: <blockquote><p>No, it's not true. Chances are you might have an easier time finding a spot with your other 2 classes, but I don't know any of the real raid oriented SKs in my circles that had problems getting into raid guilds, or snagging raid spots.</p></blockquote> So when was the last time you saw a raid guild looking for a non-fabled plate tank?  (note the OPs level) </blockquote><p>He won't be doing too much raiding until later levels, most likely. It is not so difficult to gear up with initial fabled either (KoS), once he gets going in the later game either. </p><p>I do see raid guilds accepting tanks into their ranks who are not completly fabled either...mostly out of neccessity. A couple of our "top" raiding guilds picked up a couple non-fableds in a hurry recently when they lost their MTs to real life. They geared em up in a hurry, but that's how it goes....things happen and spots open up. I've also noted a few looking for cusaders recently on my server....casual and not so casual raid forces alike (mine is looking for a Pally at the moment....as was one of the "top" 5s this month).</p><p>If you concentrate on the toon you enjoy, you'll find your spot. As a raiding crusader (tank spec'd even), I never had trouble finding/getting into raids, or locking a spot. I worked on my stats and my gear to a point where there are not many tanks on my server that match em (of any of the classes). I was/am MT for my guild...though I more or less defer my spot to some new blood whenever I can in the last month or 2 (just to get a little break and work up an Alt I also enjoy playing, and to give them experience)....and for another raid force I am second tank (or MT in his absence/or when AFK....though I am slightly superior stat wise, he is an excellent tank and of longer standing in the force).</p><p>If you are serious about raiding as a crusader, just do it. If you don't like to prove yourself or work as hard to get accepted (as yes, there is still a stigma/lack or awareness)...then don't. </p>

[DjVacant]

<p>Oakum and Tyranire hit the nail on the head....Pali's rock in raid's for one reason, and that's Amends.  Amends is a single target buff that transfers a large portion of the target's hate to the paladin (allowing the normally aggro-conscience wizards and warlocks to open up for full DPS potential).  The rest of the paladins utility is pretty much just fluff after amends (and it's still better than what SKs bring to the party)</p><p>Deathmarch does rock, but back when I was raiding with my SK I was doing "decent" DPS and would pull aggro from time to time when casting it.  I was probably mis-timing it....</p><p>And yeah...SK do have a negative stigma that should have dropped off a few updates ago (when we got some love and became a viable class) but even if everyone was educated, plate tanks in general aren't in high demand when slotting raids.  If you wanna be in high demand...make a bard or enchanter...now THERE's a class that'll get you some action. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Wytie]

Antryg Mistrose wrote: <blockquote>I wouldn't say useless.  But 90% of the time a raid only really <b>NEEDS ONE </b>fighter. 24 classes in the game, 6 of them fighters - you see the problem. The 2nd and any subsequent fighters need to justify their inclusion over 18 other classes all of which have better buffs and DPS (or both), and will have to somehow magically maintain high DPS AND be ready to instantly take over if the MT goes down, from a position of inferior buffs and gear ...    Very hard for a SK - Gear and AA choices are required to DPS and different gear and AA choices are required to raid tank.  Berserkers on the other hand, can do quite decent DPS, offering the raid comparable group buffs, WITHOUT having to completely [Removed for Content] themselves for tanking.  Fair? no, but thats the current state of the game. Group wise - no problem.  But forget about ever being desired in raids over your other chars.  100% cast iron guarantee. Still, it could be worse - you could be a brawler, then even groups won't want you unless they are desperate (or you have worked your butt off to get a good reputation). </blockquote><p> wow are you kidding me, comon sure we dont have the best or even 2nd best group buffs but you put me in the caster group and i will parse with the mages. You put me in the MT group and i will help reduce teh healing the tank needs. We have an nice STA STR group buff and with a Dirge our group Heal proc is very nice. Our Ward if masterd with AA boost is freakn sweet for the Raid tank, we can intercept on the MT and heal our selfs back up.</p><p>We are a great 2nd tank on raids alot of tuff epic mobs require more than one tank to soak damage we can do that well and help keep ourself alive and let teh MT have more healers...</p><p>The list goes on and on we debuff warlocks damage type nice stuns and debuff and not bad DPS.</p><p>Sure some classes do some of those things better but we stack with thoses classes they dont stack with themselfs. </p>

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

<p>Personally I don't find Pallys to bring more to the raid table than SKs, but I do really like what they bring for our force. </p><p>I also do get the shudders occasionally when a non crusader is chosen over an obviously stronger tank though, and yes, it does happen fairly often. I raid mon-wed-fri-sun...so last night was an off night. I got invited to join an Emerald Halls raid with another guild. The MT was one of their regular Guardians....he was good, and a nice person, but I dwarfed his stats.....600 more HP, 1200 more Mitigation, 300-400 more on almost every resist etc. In the end I was picking up the adds, and  grabbing the named while they rezzed him etc., though I wasn't even put in as off-tank and had no assigned healers. I was just there as a filler, and I was having fun with good people so I really didn't care at all..... but I'm quite sure it did not even occur to swap me into the tank role.</p>

[Oakum]

CHIMPNOODLE. wrote: <blockquote><p>Personally I don't find Pallys to bring more to the raid table than SKs, but I do really like what they bring for our force. </p><p>I also do get the shudders occasionally when a non crusader is chosen over an obviously stronger tank though, and yes, it does happen fairly often. I raid mon-wed-fri-sun...so last night was an off night. I got invited to join an Emerald Halls raid with another guild. The MT was one of their regular Guardians....he was good, and a nice person, but I dwarfed his stats.....600 more HP, 1200 more Mitigation, 300-400 more on almost every resist etc. In the end I was picking up the adds, and  grabbing the named while they rezzed him etc., though I wasn't even put in as off-tank and had no assigned healers. I was just there as a filler, and I was having fun with good people so I really didn't care at all..... but I'm quite sure it did not even occur to swap me into the tank role.</p></blockquote><p>Good job on taking over. I raid in an alliance and do not have any tanks in my guild who can attend most raids do to RL and time zones. When I run the raid though I try to balance having an alliance member do it for experience ect unless he/she is a relatively fresh lvl 70 and wearing largely mastercrafted and wont be able to handle it period so the raid has no reasonable chance at success. </p><p>Raiding should be about fun as well as gear and a occasional death never really hurts. An hour killing trash in bs will make enough gold to pay for several 10 death raids and a repair kit or two even if lucky with the loot drops. It's not like we have to do shard runs and a game is supposed to be fun, lol. The lost time is the biggest part. Now if the MT was dieing over and over on trash, yes, put in the better geared non alliance/guild person and keep going. Hopefully the alliance/guild tank will get some gear drops and do better next time. </p><p>One of our alliance raid MT is an SK and does just fine when he tanks. I like that you pointed out you had fun even if not allowed to Mt. </p>

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

<p>Hehe ya. If I join a raid as a filler...then I'm just there to either help or for fun. It's the raid leader's call who does what anyway. </p><p>I want to win, and I do my homework on the raid zones and zones I'm hitting...but dying doesn't phase me in the slightest. I raid because I find it a blast, a challenge...and a lot of laughs with the crews I run with. </p><p>I think I have the dubious honor of having the third most deaths on my server for SKs, third to 2 harder core guild's SKs...but if not the highest NPC kills, I'm definitely in the top echelon as well. I started my guild and aptly named it The Shard Collectors when we did have to collect our Shards lol. Die and learn.</p><p>I'm also the raid leader for 2 of our nights though (Mon-Fri), and if for whatever reason we are missing a strong tank and I bring in a filler....if he/she has a large edge on any guild tanks available.....likely they will find themselves tanking, crusader or warrior for the zones we hit anyway.</p><p>Filmore Graves</p><p>Guild leader of The Shard Collectors</p><p>Unrest</p>

[Antryg Mistrose]

<cite>Wytie wrote:</cite><blockquote>Antryg Mistrose wrote: <blockquote>I wouldn't say useless.  But 90% of the time a raid only really <b>NEEDS ONE </b>fighter. 24 classes in the game, 6 of them fighters - you see the problem. The 2nd and any subsequent fighters need to justify their inclusion over 18 other classes all of which have better buffs and DPS (or both), and will have to somehow magically maintain high DPS AND be ready to instantly take over if the MT goes down, from a position of inferior buffs and gear ...    Very hard for a SK - Gear and AA choices are required to DPS and different gear and AA choices are required to raid tank.  Berserkers on the other hand, can do quite decent DPS, offering the raid comparable group buffs, WITHOUT having to completely [Removed for Content] themselves for tanking.  Fair? no, but thats the current state of the game. Group wise - no problem.  But forget about ever being desired in raids over your other chars.  100% cast iron guarantee. Still, it could be worse - you could be a brawler, then even groups won't want you unless they are desperate (or you have worked your butt off to get a good reputation). </blockquote><p> wow are you kidding me, comon sure we dont have the best or even 2nd best group buffs but you put me in the caster group and i will parse with the mages. You put me in the MT group and i will help reduce teh healing the tank needs. We have an nice STA STR group buff and with a Dirge our group Heal proc is very nice. Our Ward if masterd with AA boost is freakn sweet for the Raid tank, we can intercept on the MT and heal our selfs back up.</p><p>We are a great 2nd tank on raids alot of tuff epic mobs require more than one tank to soak damage we can do that well and help keep ourself alive and let teh MT have more healers...</p><p>The list goes on and on we debuff warlocks damage type nice stuns and debuff and not bad DPS.</p><p>Sure some classes do some of those things better but we stack with thoses classes they dont stack with themselfs. </p></blockquote>So who do you replace in the MT group? A dirge?, A coercer? An Assasin/Swash? a Templar? a Defiler? a Warden?  All of these have more to offer, so you'd be 2nd or lower choice.  UNLESS, you are replacing the MT <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> In a caster group, your gear must be godly if you can outdps the mage who's position you take. We are tanks, and as such the numbers are against us regardless of the features of the 5 other tank classes - groups need a tank, raids need a tank.  so thats 25% of available classes competing for 1/6 of group slots and 1/24th of raid ones.  That other tanks can with a lot less effort get more DPS is big issue, as I can't see our utility as that stellar.  Berserker in a melee group for example offers more then we can to any group.  If we offered more to casters, rather than replacing one of them in a caster group, then we'd have a guaranteed spot. The simple answer is Nerf Warriors !   They've been top dogs long enough.  Where are the mobs that make warriors with their pitiful INT / WIS stats look like the dumb / foolish wretches they are .....

[Deaudlus]

Antryg Mistrose wrote: <blockquote><cite>Wytie wrote:</cite><blockquote>Antryg Mistrose wrote: <blockquote>I wouldn't say useless.  But 90% of the time a raid only really <b>NEEDS ONE </b>fighter. 24 classes in the game, 6 of them fighters - you see the problem. The 2nd and any subsequent fighters need to justify their inclusion over 18 other classes all of which have better buffs and DPS (or both), and will have to somehow magically maintain high DPS AND be ready to instantly take over if the MT goes down, from a position of inferior buffs and gear ...    Very hard for a SK - Gear and AA choices are required to DPS and different gear and AA choices are required to raid tank.  Berserkers on the other hand, can do quite decent DPS, offering the raid comparable group buffs, WITHOUT having to completely [Removed for Content] themselves for tanking.  Fair? no, but thats the current state of the game. Group wise - no problem.  But forget about ever being desired in raids over your other chars.  100% cast iron guarantee. Still, it could be worse - you could be a brawler, then even groups won't want you unless they are desperate (or you have worked your butt off to get a good reputation). </blockquote><p> wow are you kidding me, comon sure we dont have the best or even 2nd best group buffs but you put me in the caster group and i will parse with the mages. You put me in the MT group and i will help reduce teh healing the tank needs. We have an nice STA STR group buff and with a Dirge our group Heal proc is very nice. Our Ward if masterd with AA boost is freakn sweet for the Raid tank, we can intercept on the MT and heal our selfs back up.</p><p>We are a great 2nd tank on raids alot of tuff epic mobs require more than one tank to soak damage we can do that well and help keep ourself alive and let teh MT have more healers...</p><p>The list goes on and on we debuff warlocks damage type nice stuns and debuff and not bad DPS.</p><p>Sure some classes do some of those things better but we stack with thoses classes they dont stack with themselfs. </p></blockquote>So who do you replace in the MT group? A dirge?, A coercer? An Assasin/Swash? a Templar? a Defiler? a Warden?  All of these have more to offer, so you'd be 2nd or lower choice.  UNLESS, you are replacing the MT <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> In a caster group, your gear must be godly if you can outdps the mage who's position you take. We are tanks, and as such the numbers are against us regardless of the features of the 5 other tank classes - groups need a tank, raids need a tank.  so thats 25% of available classes competing for 1/6 of group slots and 1/24th of raid ones.  That other tanks can with a lot less effort get more DPS is big issue, as I can't see our utility as that stellar.  Berserker in a melee group for example offers more then we can to any group.  If we offered more to casters, rather than replacing one of them in a caster group, then we'd have a guaranteed spot. The simple answer is Nerf Warriors !   They've been top dogs long enough.  Where are the mobs that make warriors with their pitiful INT / WIS stats look like the dumb / foolish wretches they are ..... </blockquote>While I am generally not a fan of crying nerf on other classes I kind of have to agree.  My main is a 70 swash and when I raid both of our zerkers generally come with in 200-300 DPS of me.  THe thing is they do this while still being specced to tank decently.  That seems a bit imbalanced.  I don't mind fighters having really nice buffs that get them a slot on the raid, but zerkers having good DPS, good buffs and good tanking ability at the same time seems a bit unbalanced to the rest of the fighter classes.   I tried a zerker once.  Got him to lvl 20 but enjoyed the more spell oriented play of the SK.  At this point, I'm kind of starting to question my choice.  I raid in a guild that would NEVER leave a class out just because it isn't ideal.  But I personally have a problem with feeling like I am taking a spot that could go to a class that would do a better job of helping the raid.  I've though about shelving my SK and starting to lvl my zerker, but as far as I am concerned zerker just doesn't have that "cool" factor like my SK does.  Something about dragging the souls of my fallen enemies from the grave to fight for me just has some kind of dark appeal <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

<p>Zerkers are a nice class (love Gutroar <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ), but they do not help raids any more than SKs imo. If you prefer SK...don't bother leveling a new toon. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Naithachal]

<cite>Deaudlus wrote:</cite><blockquote>While I am generally not a fan of crying nerf on other classes I kind of have to agree.  My main is a 70 swash and when I raid both of our zerkers generally come with in 200-300 DPS of me.  THe thing is they do this while still being specced to tank decently.  That seems a bit imbalanced.  I don't mind fighters having really nice buffs that get them a slot on the raid, but zerkers having good DPS, good buffs and good tanking ability at the same time seems a bit unbalanced to the rest of the fighter classes.   I tried a zerker once.  Got him to lvl 20 but enjoyed the more spell oriented play of the SK.  At this point, I'm kind of starting to question my choice.  I raid in a guild that would NEVER leave a class out just because it isn't ideal.  But I personally have a problem with feeling like I am taking a spot that could go to a class that would do a better job of helping the raid.  I've though about shelving my SK and starting to lvl my zerker, but as far as I am concerned zerker just doesn't have that "cool" factor like my SK does.  Something about dragging the souls of my fallen enemies from the grave to fight for me just has some kind of dark appeal <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote><p> Agree! Imo it seems SOE just dont have the courage to give Crusaders some realy good tools without up the Fighters right after.</p><p>We were on a good way for a short time but now Fighters have more DPS and still about the same Defense and we SK's are left behind once more. Dunno maby i overestimate it a bit but with the Fighters AA they have somthing like we would have Offensive Stance without the Penalty in Defense or vice versa. Wich if we would ask for surely all would say its imba.<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Wytie]

Antryg Mistrose wrote: <blockquote><cite>Wytie wrote:</cite><blockquote>Antryg Mistrose wrote: <blockquote>I wouldn't say useless.  But 90% of the time a raid only really <b>NEEDS ONE </b>fighter. 24 classes in the game, 6 of them fighters - you see the problem. The 2nd and any subsequent fighters need to justify their inclusion over 18 other classes all of which have better buffs and DPS (or both), and will have to somehow magically maintain high DPS AND be ready to instantly take over if the MT goes down, from a position of inferior buffs and gear ...    Very hard for a SK - Gear and AA choices are required to DPS and different gear and AA choices are required to raid tank.  Berserkers on the other hand, can do quite decent DPS, offering the raid comparable group buffs, WITHOUT having to completely [Removed for Content] themselves for tanking.  Fair? no, but thats the current state of the game. Group wise - no problem.  But forget about ever being desired in raids over your other chars.  100% cast iron guarantee. Still, it could be worse - you could be a brawler, then even groups won't want you unless they are desperate (or you have worked your butt off to get a good reputation). </blockquote><p> wow are you kidding me, comon sure we dont have the best or even 2nd best group buffs but you put me in the caster group and i will parse with the mages. You put me in the MT group and i will help reduce teh healing the tank needs. We have an nice STA STR group buff and with a Dirge our group Heal proc is very nice. Our Ward if masterd with AA boost is freakn sweet for the Raid tank, we can intercept on the MT and heal our selfs back up.</p><p>We are a great 2nd tank on raids alot of tuff epic mobs require more than one tank to soak damage we can do that well and help keep ourself alive and let teh MT have more healers...</p><p>The list goes on and on we debuff warlocks damage type nice stuns and debuff and not bad DPS.</p><p>Sure some classes do some of those things better but we stack with thoses classes they dont stack with themselfs. </p></blockquote>So who do you replace in the MT group? A dirge?, A coercer? An Assasin/Swash? a Templar? a Defiler? a Warden?  All of these have more to offer, so you'd be 2nd or lower choice.  UNLESS, you are replacing the MT <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> In a caster group, your gear must be godly if you can outdps the mage who's position you take. We are tanks, and as such the numbers are against us regardless of the features of the 5 other tank classes - groups need a tank, raids need a tank.  so thats 25% of available classes competing for 1/6 of group slots and 1/24th of raid ones.  That other tanks can with a lot less effort get more DPS is big issue, as I can't see our utility as that stellar.  Berserker in a melee group for example offers more then we can to any group.  If we offered more to casters, rather than replacing one of them in a caster group, then we'd have a guaranteed spot. The simple answer is Nerf Warriors !   They've been top dogs long enough.  Where are the mobs that make warriors with their pitiful INT / WIS stats look like the dumb / foolish wretches they are ..... </blockquote><p>well first of all im a bit off, im on a pvp server where our raids only consist of half the classes so my opinion will be off base for a pve type raid, so i will just leave it at that.....  But from my past raids im usally put in the mage group due to my high self intell and i benifit from the troub buffs as well tho i do dps better in the dirge group.  </p><p>but IMO and our raids anything more than 3 healers in the MT group is a waste. add a dirge and myself and you have 6 with the zerker as MT, again this is all comming from a freeport only raid, so your situation is different. </p>

[Dead Knight]

In my normal raid group I have a Fury, Dirge, Troub, Illusionist and Necro/Wiz/Warlock and parse 1-1.5k constantly, while the Zerkers sit around 7-900, occasionally breaking 1k on AE fights. We still have more DPS than Warriors if specced correctly. The issue is not Warriors having more DPS, give a DPS spec SK a troub and a DPS spec Zerker a dirge and the SK will outparse them everytime guaranteed. The issue is that we lose alot of DPS while tanking in defensive stance whereas the Warrior maintains that DPS.

[t0iletduck]

Dead Knight wrote: <blockquote>In my normal raid group I have a Fury, Dirge, Troub, Illusionist and Necro/Wiz/Warlock and parse 1-1.5k constantly, while the Zerkers sit around 7-900, occasionally breaking 1k on AE fights. We still have more DPS than Warriors if specced correctly. The issue is not Warriors having more DPS, give a DPS spec SK a troub and a DPS spec Zerker a dirge and the SK will outparse them everytime guaranteed. The issue is that we lose alot of DPS while tanking in defensive stance whereas the Warrior maintains that DPS. </blockquote> I'd agree with that in most cases except for a Gladiator(sta) spec'd zerker with a good 1h and buckler. They will own the parse for fighters, especially if there are two or more mobs in the fight. That is one of the reasons why a lot of raid guilds will run with a zerker and not an SK, is that they will easily outparse an SK unless that SK had ideal mage buffs, while keeping way more survivability because they still have a 1h and shield. (STA line also increases % to block to help make up for the avoidance loss of using a buckler)

[Squigglle]

oh ic

[Volcanus]

Shadow Knights are great in raids. My main is a level 70 sk, and in raids I'm in the top ten in the parse every fight. With a good two hand weapon (high damage, high delay), and your offensive stance, you can hit for 1k easily, each hit, and crit for 1.2-2k.  We have despoil, death march, intercede, grave blessing, and a huge array of our own, self heals. We can out DPS most scout classes if spec'd right. Anyone who says SK's are useless in raids has no idea what they're talking about.

[geophonic]

I am a level 70 raiding SK too. I was specced full STR for the -10% in cast and recovery plus INT 4-4-8 and I was using the Sword of Pain. I used pretty much every skill I have at hand and I never reached a dps like a scout (I only catched those lazy ones that didn´t pay attention to whats going on in the raid and rather watched TV than actively participating in the raid *eg*). My dps is, depending on group setup, somewhere between 350 and 650 zonewide dps (top DPSer >2k). Anyway, I recently respecced to INT 4-4-8 / WIS 4-4-8 / rest somewhere else to fit a support role in raids for the mage group. This skill set gives me and my group a +34 on every important skill, which is actually quite nice when fighting the big orange epics in EoF. I only see the impact of not having the STR end ability when soloing. In a raid setup it doesnt really matter. We hope that this skill set will help the DPS guys in the group I am in. If not, back to the old AA setup in 3 weeks, no big deal.

[Und3rt0w]

<cite>geophonic wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am a level 70 raiding SK too. I was specced full STR for the -10% in cast and recovery plus INT 4-4-8 and I was using the Sword of Pain. I used pretty much every skill I have at hand and I never reached a dps like a scout (I only catched those lazy ones that didn´t pay attention to whats going on in the raid and rather watched TV than actively participating in the raid *eg*). My dps is, depending on group setup, somewhere between 350 and 650 zonewide dps (top DPSer >2k). Anyway, I recently respecced to INT 4-4-8 / WIS 4-4-8 / rest somewhere else to fit a support role in raids for the mage group. This skill set gives me and my group a +34 on every important skill, which is actually quite nice when fighting the big orange epics in EoF. I only see the impact of not having the STR end ability when soloing. In a raid setup it doesnt really matter. We hope that this skill set will help the DPS guys in the group I am in. If not, back to the old AA setup in 3 weeks, no big deal. </blockquote> That sucks...my SK is at lvl 50 and heading down a very similar path (STR line filled starting down INT) and I have the Sword of Pain waiting for me...if that's all I can look forward too, then I'm going to focus even more centrally on my up and coming Assassin.

[Dead Knight]

<cite>geophonic wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am a level 70 raiding SK too. I was specced full STR for the -10% in cast and recovery plus INT 4-4-8 and I was using the Sword of Pain. I used pretty much every skill I have at hand and I never reached a dps like a scout (I only catched those lazy ones that didn´t pay attention to whats going on in the raid and rather watched TV than actively participating in the raid *eg*). My dps is, depending on group setup, somewhere between 350 and 650 zonewide dps (top DPSer >2k). Anyway, I recently respecced to INT 4-4-8 / WIS 4-4-8 / rest somewhere else to fit a support role in raids for the mage group. This skill set gives me and my group a +34 on every important skill, which is actually quite nice when fighting the big orange epics in EoF. I only see the impact of not having the STR end ability when soloing. In a raid setup it doesnt really matter. We hope that this skill set will help the DPS guys in the group I am in. If not, back to the old AA setup in 3 weeks, no big deal. </blockquote> You must have had a pretty [Removed for Content] [Removed for Content] group setup..

[geophonic]

probably <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I will ask my raidleader to change this *eg*

[Luxun]

<p>I play on a pvp server and MT on raids for our guild.  My role on a raid other than MT would be extremly limited, it is the sad reality of it. Being the MT as a SK, I have encountered the problem of interrupts. We are suppose to dps, to help maintain aggro, also we have life taps to cover our lack of extra MIT buffs like guardiand and zerkers, however we cannot use mpst of our abilities on time and quickly because we get interrupted. How o nearth can we tank properly when we are suppose to be taking damage, and when yu take damage there is a huge chance you get interrupted ? So what it comes down to is, a zerker can outtank us, not because they have better CAs, but because they can land their taunts, (they odnt have to deal with resists) they also dont have to deal with interrupts, and they don't have to deal with long cast times. </p><p>I don't see why a SK is being punished so much, its not liekwe do the most amount of dps of the tank classes, we have so many flaws, which is why we can hardly find a spot on raids. If SK is to ever become a major MT on raids, DEVs need to do something about our csting times and interrupts and mob resists. </p>

[kickmyd0g]

<p>We don't exactly suck on raids but we do take up a slot than can be used by a more focused class..</p><p>Our DPS is very much dependant on the correct group setup, in a good group I can parse close to 1k ZW and between 1.2 and 1.8k encounter but get me in the wrong group as a spot filler and my zw dps can be around the 600 mark <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I don't have a problem raiding with my guild (UK on Splitpaw) but then I'm the only main SK but there are occasions when we will raid with 2 pallies and leave me on reserve especially when there is extra healing required and at the moment Pallies can do some nice DPS pretty much regardless of group setup.</p><p>I luv my SK I've played it since EQ2 came out and I've tried pretty much every other class in the game, as solo and grp tanks we are second to none we just need some raid luvvin <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

<cite>Luxun wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I play on a pvp server and MT on raids for our guild.  My role on a raid other than MT would be extremly limited, it is the sad reality of it. Being the MT as a SK, I have encountered the problem of interrupts. We are suppose to dps, to help maintain aggro, also we have life taps to cover our lack of extra MIT buffs like guardiand and zerkers, however we cannot use mpst of our abilities on time and quickly because we get interrupted. How o nearth can we tank properly when we are suppose to be taking damage, and when yu take damage there is a huge chance you get interrupted ? So what it comes down to is, a zerker can outtank us, not because they have better CAs, but because they can land their taunts, (they odnt have to deal with resists) they also dont have to deal with interrupts, and they don't have to deal with long cast times. </p><p>I don't see why a SK is being punished so much, its not liekwe do the most amount of dps of the tank classes, we have so many flaws, which is why we can hardly find a spot on raids. If SK is to ever become a major MT on raids, DEVs need to do something about our csting times and interrupts and mob resists. </p></blockquote><p> I get the odd interrupt, but it doesn't really make much difference tanking. It's rare I use any of the longer casting spells much, and even more rare if the longer casts are the deciding factor. As far as guards or Zerkers out-tanking us, they have some great tools...but the gap is slim to none at times (and occasionally favors the SK). When we interchange guards, zerks, and SKs in MT/OT roles we don't even notice the difference (except guards seem to struggle a bit as OT for quick pickups of non-linked). </p><p>When we </p>