Paladins: are they really a joke in pvp?

[MikeMatsumo]

Hi guys, how you doing? I'm here for talk about a little about paladins. I'm not asking for soe chance anything or stuffs like that. I just wanna heard more opinions. Anyway, i don't play with another class because i love the history behind paladins but looks like for me its really really hard fight in pvp with paladins. I will say my feeling about 1 vs 1 in 10 fights. pally vs plate tanks :                5 x 5    (fair) pally vs healer:                         5 x 5    (fair) pally vs wiz/coec/war:              5 x 5    (fair) pally vs necro:                          3 x 7 (special if they encha some undead next too you) scouts special brig/assassi:      9 x 1 (if you have <a href="http://eq2.allakhazam.com/db/ability.html?eq2ability=2671" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Celestial Touch</a> up and luck) please, help with scouts. I almost don't remember last time i win someone in duel. Most time if they jump in my head im dead. If my celestial touch is not up I'm soooo dead in 10 seconds if is up I'm dead in 20 seconds. yesterday one brigand and assassin keep me in snare/root/negative speed, or something like that ALL TIME (more then 30 seconds). so, the only think i can do was heal myself. i don't have any chance to get closer to fight. of course, my heals is nothing with all that dps range, debuffs. i use castigate and in 3 seconds all debuffs on me again. how i can get close to fight against that? So, anyone have any advice about aa how to fight against scouts or its just that? we sux in pvp lvl 70 against scouts? I really would like heard people that play with paladins in pvp for a long time and special about fp people. what they think about us. thanks guys, have a nice week.

[azekah]

This is not a pally only problem. Scouts are just really good in PvP That is why you see groups of 6 scouts running around ganking everyone. Group or die...thats the only 2 choices I see...

[Wytie]

From what i hear your great in groups but suck bad solo, i would suggest betray to a SK there pretty strong on scouts solo if built and played well and theres always HT of course  <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[MikeMatsumo]

hi guys, thanks for anwser. I heard that alot from sk. betray. But I almost don't loose a fight for sk. serious. its a long fight but i win in 7 x 3 maybe 8 x 2. so, i have doubts about that. +/- how is your score against solo scouts? in 10 fights..

[CresentBlade]

Plate classes have it rough, they should be able to stand at least toe toe with scouts but for some reason they cant.

[Krokous]

i played sk and betrayed to pally: sk is WAY better vs scouts (reactive heal/dps shield owns them and lifetaps.. u damage them and heal yerself) pally is only standing, tries to cast ward or SUCKY long cast and low heal heal spell and watches scout own him

[ailen]

<cite>CresentBlade wrote:</cite><blockquote>Plate classes have it rough, they should be able to stand at least toe toe with scouts but for some reason they cant.</blockquote><p> look up my toons and compare mit and avoidance numbers.</p><p>brigand Maliak - Nagafen</p><p>Berserker Ailen - Nagafen</p><p>Check their gear, and do a comparison. Think about the differences... is THAT fair that a brigand is so close to mit and avoidance as my fully fabled raid equipped berserker?  The diminishing returns curve broke this.  I should be able to take a SERIOUS beating from a scout....  not take the same beating a debuffing dps scout can take.</p><p>SOE was right to help the mages, but they broke the tanks in the process...</p><p>Paladin if played right is hard to beat 1v1... good gear, good AAs and good masters.  You can get an EoF AA line that gives you a 24% chance to block... that's 24% chance to block ANY melee damange, uncontested, regardless of level of opponent.</p><p>thats one of the most overpowered abilities in game... can't cry too much man.</p>

[CresentBlade]

Maliak@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>CresentBlade wrote:</cite><blockquote>Plate classes have it rough, they should be able to stand at least toe toe with scouts but for some reason they cant.</blockquote><p> look up my toons and compare mit and avoidance numbers.</p><p>brigand Maliak - Nagafen</p><p>Berserker Ailen - Nagafen</p><p>Check their gear, and do a comparison. Think about the differences... is THAT fair that a brigand is so close to mit and avoidance as my fully fabled raid equipped berserker?  The diminishing returns curve broke this.  I should be able to take a SERIOUS beating from a scout....  not take the same beating a debuffing dps scout can take.</p><p>SOE was right to help the mages, but they broke the tanks in the process...</p><p>Paladin if played right is hard to beat 1v1... good gear, good AAs and good masters.  You can get an EoF AA line that gives you a 24% chance to block... that's 24% chance to block ANY melee damange, uncontested, regardless of level of opponent.</p><p>thats one of the most overpowered abilities in game... can't cry too much man.</p></blockquote>Thats crummy since I am a up and coming zerker...gonna have to buy a bigger shield hehe

[Bozidar]

Maliak@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>The diminishing returns curve broke this.  I should be able to take a SERIOUS beating from a scout....  not take the same beating a debuffing dps scout can take. <p>SOE was right to help the mages, but they broke the tanks in the process...</p></blockquote>GAH!!! I just HATE it when cry babies come onto the forums and whine all the time!  Nothing is broken! T7 is more fair than lower tiers!!! <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[ailen]

<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Maliak@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>The diminishing returns curve broke this.  I should be able to take a SERIOUS beating from a scout....  not take the same beating a debuffing dps scout can take. <p>SOE was right to help the mages, but they broke the tanks in the process...</p></blockquote>GAH!!! I just HATE it when cry babies come onto the forums and whine all the time!  Nothing is broken! T7 is more fair than lower tiers!!! <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote> Bodizar, such a sad attempt at a flame.  The diminishing returns curve affects all tiers.  Even the level locked twink wanna-be's

[MikeMatsumo]

Good post. But scouts still own me i have 2 options: 1) try ward/heal with all that cast time and interrupts and try make dps while im trying not die too fast. at least i dont die in 10 seconds. takes 20 seconds. most times they stay at 70% hp. 2) or i can try stop heal/ward and try go to dps. dont work very well. they go to 40% hp sometimes but i die more fast. if the problem was  only: YOUR GEAR SUX! why i dont have that problem with another classes? in lunch time right now i have a nice fight with a sk and bruiser. i lost for sk but both was with 1% hp and 0 power. I win bruiser in same way. thats how suppose to be. you win you loose you win you loose. but looks like with paladins vs scouts is always you loose. i really love my class, but i really think that final answer is: PALADINS SUX against scouts. I think all scouts look for a pally and think: HEY, free tokens! the end. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> i really hope im wrong. i dont wanna believe that soe makes stuffs sooo unbalance. please, if you are from fp let me know what you think about paladins. and if you are from qeynos let me know what you are doing against scouts.

[Bozidar]

Maliak@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Maliak@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>The diminishing returns curve broke this.  I should be able to take a SERIOUS beating from a scout....  not take the same beating a debuffing dps scout can take. <p>SOE was right to help the mages, but they broke the tanks in the process...</p></blockquote>GAH!!! I just HATE it when cry babies come onto the forums and whine all the time!  Nothing is broken! T7 is more fair than lower tiers!!! <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote> Bodizar, such a sad attempt at a flame.  The diminishing returns curve affects all tiers.  Even the level locked twink wanna-be's</blockquote>except that the percentage of rogues that even approach mitigation cap pre T7 can be counted on your fingers and toes.

[Darlion]

<cite>MikeMatsumoto wrote:</cite><blockquote>pally vs plate tanks :                5 x 5    (fair) pally vs healer:                         5 x 5    (fair) pally vs wiz/coec/war:              5 x 5    (fair) pally vs necro:                          3 x 7 (special if they encha some undead next too you) scouts special brig/assassi:      9 x 1 (if you have <a href="http://eq2.allakhazam.com/db/ability.html?eq2ability=2671" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Celestial Touch</a> up and luck) </blockquote><p> Just thought I would add my comments as probibly the best equiped  paladin on Nagafen. </p><p>Assuming gear is relatively equal:</p><p>You will only consistantly beat guardians out of the tanks. Shadowknights will drain you out of power, Zerkers will either blitz you so badly with damage you drop, or will do enough consistantly that they will kill you (since they don't have to heal, they just pop death preventions). Brawlers (since they aren't listed) Are difficult and depends on your luck with procs and the brawlers skill. Monks are harder than bruisers (purely due to  the ward) I would think, but I haven't had the chance to fight many.</p><p>You should nearly always lose to healers. They can simply outlast you with better heals. Furies will brutalise you. You can possibly beat clerics, especially with power drain adornments and gear.</p><p>Casters you should beat most of the time, depending on your spec you will find some easier than others (support spec is fun for sorcerers/coercers, wis line for necros).</p><p>Scouts (contrary to what you've found) are among the easiest to beat. Having CT up is of course vital to most of them, but then entering fights with cooldowns running is a very, very bad idea. Brigands are doable, CT through their restrain/dispatch/double up, then wear them down. Assassins are somewhat easy, although some are  much harder  than others. Rangers are also possible, but can quite easily go either way. A good ranger is near impossible to kill if they don't want to die though. Don't even bother with swashbucklers, if their gear is even  close to yours they will drop you in less than 4 seconds. Bards are easy.</p>

[ailen]

<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Maliak@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Maliak@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>The diminishing returns curve broke this.  I should be able to take a SERIOUS beating from a scout....  not take the same beating a debuffing dps scout can take. <p>SOE was right to help the mages, but they broke the tanks in the process...</p></blockquote>GAH!!! I just HATE it when cry babies come onto the forums and whine all the time!  Nothing is broken! T7 is more fair than lower tiers!!! <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote> Bodizar, such a sad attempt at a flame.  The diminishing returns curve affects all tiers.  Even the level locked twink wanna-be's</blockquote>except that the percentage of rogues that even approach mitigation cap pre T7 can be counted on your fingers and toes. </blockquote>Now isn't this a tasty morsel?   Which are the ones that can?  Oh, that's right the fabled out twinks.   Curious that you brought this up.  Makes my point to a tee in another thread.  kkthx for playing

[Darlion]

Maliak@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><p>Paladin if played right is hard to beat 1v1... good gear, good AAs and good masters.  You can get an EoF AA line that gives you a 24% chance to block... that's 24% chance to block ANY melee damange, uncontested, regardless of level of opponent.</p><p>thats one of the most overpowered abilities in game... can't cry too much man.</p></blockquote> Not how it works bud. It's 24% increase on a shields protection value. Meaning it makes a shield with say.... 1300 protection (bout the region of KOS fabled shields) have a 1612 protection rating. Efffectively  it comes to about a 7-11% increase in block (going by memory).

[ailen]

Kalath@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Maliak@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><p>Paladin if played right is hard to beat 1v1... good gear, good AAs and good masters.  You can get an EoF AA line that gives you a 24% chance to block... that's 24% chance to block ANY melee damange, uncontested, regardless of level of opponent.</p><p>thats one of the most overpowered abilities in game... can't cry too much man.</p></blockquote> Not how it works bud. It's 24% increase on a shields protection value. Meaning it makes a shield with say.... 1300 protection (bout the region of KOS fabled shields) have a 1612 protection rating. Efffectively  it comes to about a 7-11% increase in block (going by memory).</blockquote>My Paladin Gass has around 24% block.  I am likely off on numbers, but that's 24% block with a silly KoS kite off Hurricanus, or similarly draconic deflector.  At least I think it's 24.

[MikeMatsumo]

thanks for awnser <b><span style="color: #3333ff">Kalath</span></b>. anyway, i dont have any problem with guardians, zerker, furys, wardens. when i loose i always have a good chance for fight. my problems is really brigands and swashs in most times. let me understand better your point. are you saying my only chance to win one battle against that classes is if my CT is up? because even with that im loosing 90%. that means i need wait like 10-15m(depends aa) for enter in battle again? that can be fair for me if you say that brigand and swash can only win too if they need wait 15m each time they use some good spell. besides, the anwser is same, we sux against scouts. btw, you have any strategies for help me?

[Darlion]

<cite>MikeMatsumoto wrote:</cite><blockquote>Good post. But scouts still own me i have 2 options: 1) try ward/heal with all that cast time and interrupts and try make dps while im trying not die too fast. at least i dont die in 10 seconds. takes 20 seconds. most times they stay at 70% hp. 2) or i can try stop heal/ward and try go to dps. dont work very well. they go to 40% hp sometimes but i die more fast. if the problem was  only: YOUR GEAR SUX! why i dont have that problem with another classes? </blockquote><p> I really hate to say this, but it IS your gear. You want to know why? Because your ability  to take burst damage (i.e. Scouts) is determined by your avoidance and your mitigation. Your heals are pretty much static (no real way to increase them) but your avoidance/mit is not. When your avoidance and mit gets much higher your heals go much further. </p><p>Example 1: Person with 40% avoidance and 50% mitigation gets swung at over a period of time for 1k damage. Total damage taken (on average) is 300 damage.</p><p>Example 2: Person with 50% avoidance and 60% mitigation gets swung at over a period of time for 1k damage. Total damage taken (on average) is 200 damage. </p><p>Now, 100 points doesn't seem like a lot, but that's a 33% decrease in damage. Not only that, you are avoiding more, therefore less interupts. The biggest thing to learn about fighting scouts is that your ability to fight them is based around how long you survive, and your survival is based on heals vs damage. Or more simply, how long you can keep your health stable. If you can't keep your health from dropping rapidly, no amount of emergency heals will win you that fight.</p><p>Anyway, that's the math for you. There are tricks you can learn to help as well (knocking them back before you heal is one such). Hope this helps you.</p>

[MikeMatsumo]

btw, i have the line for block 24% more. its super cool. against mobs and not so good in pvp. i always check combat log and in 99% of times you die because spells/combat arts in pvp. not sword attacks. so in my opinion that dont help very much in pvp. in group against mobs i would say is OVERPOWER.

[Darlion]

<cite>MikeMatsumoto wrote:</cite><blockquote>thanks for awnser <b><span style="color: #3333ff">Kalath</span></b>. anyway, i dont have any problem with guardians, zerker, furys, wardens. when i loose i always have a good chance for fight. my problems is really brigands and swashs in most times. let me understand better your point. are you saying my only chance to win one battle against that classes is if my CT is up? because even with that im loosing 90%. that means i need wait like 10-15m(depends aa) for enter in battle again? that can be fair for me if you say that brigand and swash can only win too if they need wait 15m each time they use some good spell. besides, the anwser is same, we sux against scouts. btw, you have any strategies for help me? </blockquote><p>I have no idea how you would ever beat a decent fury, they never run out of power, can kite you if need be, and heal much too fast for you to burst them down, but that aside. Wardens are much easier, but similiar gear, and they should beat you.</p><p>Yes, I would suggest waiting that long before entering a tough fight, your opponent will no doubt do the same. There are many fights I remember looking back on and saying, I would have won that fight if I had only waited 2 more minutes.</p><p>Anyway, against brigands, the basic way you would do it is they would lead by trying to drop you with double up combos. Use freedom of mind through that, and use CT when you hit around 30% or maybe earlier depending on how  quick they drop you. If you saw them coming you should have hopefully put up a ward, and that will really help. After that heal until most of their stuff is on cool down then go to work on them. If you've made it to this point, your heals should be keeping you above 80% and they should just be slowly dropping. Shouldn't take longer  than 20-30 seconds even so.</p><p>Don't even bother with swashies. If they are really bad they may pop cooldowns (engarde insp) before you engage. In this case, just run around on a mount out of range until at the very least insp is off, then it's the same thing as a brigand. If they are decent, they will drop you before you can blink. Nothing you can do about it. </p>

[Darlion]

Maliak@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Kalath@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Maliak@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><p>Paladin if played right is hard to beat 1v1... good gear, good AAs and good masters.  You can get an EoF AA line that gives you a 24% chance to block... that's 24% chance to block ANY melee damange, uncontested, regardless of level of opponent.</p><p>thats one of the most overpowered abilities in game... can't cry too much man.</p></blockquote> Not how it works bud. It's 24% increase on a shields protection value. Meaning it makes a shield with say.... 1300 protection (bout the region of KOS fabled shields) have a 1612 protection rating. Efffectively  it comes to about a 7-11% increase in block (going by memory).</blockquote>My Paladin Gass has around 24% block.  I am likely off on numbers, but that's 24% block with a silly KoS kite off Hurricanus, or similarly draconic deflector.  At least I think it's 24. </blockquote> You're still missreading the ability. Without it, you would have like 15-17% block. With it you have 24%. It's just a coencidence.

[Darlion]

<cite>MikeMatsumoto wrote:</cite><blockquote>btw, i have the line for block 24% more. its super cool. against mobs. because in 99% of times you die because spells/combat arts in pvp. not sword attacks. so in my opinion that dont help very much in pvp. in group against mobs i would say is OVERPOWER. </blockquote> Avoidance works on CAs too.

[ailen]

Kalath@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>MikeMatsumoto wrote:</cite><blockquote>btw, i have the line for block 24% more. its super cool. against mobs. because in 99% of times you die because spells/combat arts in pvp. not sword attacks. so in my opinion that dont help very much in pvp. in group against mobs i would say is OVERPOWER. </blockquote> Avoidance works on CAs too.</blockquote><p> yep... pretty cool stuff when it works.  ".. tries to sniper shot you, but you block"</p>

[Killque]

<cite>MikeMatsumoto wrote:</cite><blockquote> i really love my class, but i really think that final answer is: PALADINS SUX against scouts. I think all scouts look for a pally and think: HEY, free tokens! </blockquote><p> For me, this is spot on. If I see a Pally, theres  99/100 chance I will kill him.</p><p>Incombat run speed is a mute point for fights vs Pally, they dispell way too much.</p>

[Bozidar]

Maliak@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Now isn't this a tasty morsel?   Which are the ones that can?  Oh, that's right the fabled out twinks.   Curious that you brought this up.  Makes my point to a tee in another thread.  kkthx for playing </blockquote><p> I would say the ones that can are at or around lvl 50 and above.  At the previous end-game there is a lot of good fabled gear that might help you approach the mit cap.  Prior to that.. i'm not even sure it's possible, but i'd be willing to listen if someone could prove otherwise.</p><p>Gosh. i just sharted on your whole point <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Poor Maliak.. </p>

[Bozidar]

<cite>Killque wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>MikeMatsumoto wrote:</cite><blockquote> i really love my class, but i really think that final answer is: PALADINS SUX against scouts. I think all scouts look for a pally and think: HEY, free tokens! </blockquote><p> For me, this is spot on. If I see a Pally, theres  99/100 chance I will kill him.</p><p>Incombat run speed is a mute point for fights vs Pally, they dispell way too much.</p></blockquote><p>But you're a kite class, not a melee class like a brigand.  I know you have melee CAs, but you have a lot more ranged than a rogue does.  Also.. you're badass <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>A rogue really shouldn't beat a pally 1v1 (or an assassin either, really) prior to T7.  You get much more mit, and heals.. the bane of any melee dps class.</p><p>Your gear matters -- always.  Never neglect it.. adorn the fudge out of it, too.</p><p>Also, keep in mind that if you're fighting a lvl 70 toon (regardless of class) there's a chance he's not <i>really </i>level "70".  Raid-progressed toons are actually much tougher than some guy who just dinged 70 and is begining to look into raiding..  and pvp full set guys (wether they exploited for it or not) are just as tough as those full-raid geared players (if not more so, depending on who you listen to).  Also, chances are if They've been at 70 a while, they have a lot more masters than you do.. and it really adds up.</p><p>Gear up, CA/Spell up.. but don't expect to win 1v1.  Get a good, or great pvp guild.. and learn from them.  Not just in how a pally solo's... who CARES about 1v1 pvp?  You're a paladin!  You're a tank!  Want to know your absolute best ability in pvp that you've had since lvl 1???? <b><u>TAUNT!!</u></b></p><p>Group pvp.. ftw.. </p>