Whats are the differences between Assassins and Swashbucklers?

[Netzoko]

What are the differences? Are they any major, defining characteristics that one has other the other?

[nookin]

Assassins have lots of positional and stealthed attacks, but only one stun. This makes it pretty hard to solo. Our debuffs aren't the best, but with INT AA we're able to debuff poison up to 4000. We dont get any group buffs/utility except Hate Transfer. /edit: and pathfinding. In theory assassins should be the highest single target dps. Swashy on the other hand get more stuns, debuffs and even taunts which makes them good soloer. They debuff their mobs to do lots of damage and dont have that many stealthed and positional attacks. There's another thread in this forum with Brigs vs Assas.

[CyriexVTZ]

nookins rather accurate and informative post misses out on the most important difference Swashbucklers Suck Assassins Rule That is all.

[Siclone]

<p>well on the Assassin forum your going to get a biased answer allot of peeps spend allot of time working their toon and take pride in that.</p><p>though when it comes down to it I prefere to look at it objectivly and leave the emotion out of it.</p><p>Swahies>assassins --in soloing.  </p><p>Swahies>assassins --in pvp</p><p>Swashies> assassins--in utility and flexablity being able to tank for example or invis your group that kind of thing</p><p>Swashies when it comes to AE encounters can beat assassins in DPS.  This just depends on allot of things, but they do well in AE encounters and avoiding AE damage.</p><p>Assassins DPS on single target mobs > swashies</p><p>Swashies tend to be prefered over Assassins on raids due to their excellent DPS, De-buffs and utility.</p><p>haveing said all that, Swashies are really one of the ellite well thought out classes in the game. They do everything and everything pretty well.  They been ruling PVP for a long time now.  </p>

[CyriexVTZ]

<b><span style="color: #9933cc"><runs in, decapitates Siclone> </span></b><span style="color: #9933cc"><span style="color: #ffff33">I'd like to see a swashbuckler pull that off!</span> </span>

[Griffter]

I've never seemed to have any trouble solo'ing with my assasin, suprising to hear people say that. <img src="/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Kaediin]

<cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Swahies>assassins --in soloing. </p><p>Swashies> assassins--in utility and flexablity being able to tank for example or invis your group that kind of thing</p>Swashies tend to be prefered over Assassins on raids due to their excellent DPS, De-buffs and utility.</blockquote><p>Now ive never played a Swashie so im not 100% sure what skills they get, but Assassins can and do solo pretty well. Yeah we may only get 1 stun but its long enough to get a masked attack and a steal attack (killing blade, decap, eviscerate etc) off. As long as your not trying to take out grouped ^^^ mobs you should be fine. </p><p>You mention that Swashies have better utility because they can tank. I have tanked many times on my assassin and can do very well. I duo tanked the majority of the Claymore quest line with a fury, I have tanked in Mistmore Catacombes with a fury and warden, I have tanked the whole of SoS and taken out every named with me and a fury. When I go into my defensive stance I hit around 60% avoidance and although chain isnt as good as plate if you get raid gear the mit is still pretty decent.</p><p>Assassins CAN tank and they can do a decent job of it.</p><p>Althought assassins may not get loads of debuffs we do get a fair few and good ones to boot. We get very good poison debuffs, with the right AA's and a master Enmesh you can debuff over 4200 poison mit. We can also debuff over 68 defense and 512 physical mitigation. We can also debuff ALL melle and casting skills by between 46+ and 37+ (depending on AA's).</p><p>On raid utility, ignoring our debuffs we also have a very denect agro transfer when put in the MT group. The guild im in raids a fair bit and we used to have issues with our Wizzie pulling agro when he hit for 60k + on a mana burn. Since ive been put in the MT group he very rarely pulls agro. Not much raid utility? we may not have loads of raid enhancing buffs but the few we have can make ALL the difference.</p><p>So yeah our debuffs may not be huge but they are by no means insignificant.</p>

[Siclone]

<p>The question is relative to a swashie....I never said Assassins are [Removed for Content],,,,in soloing and other things,,,,,just not as good in comparison to swashie,,,</p>

[Siclone]

<cite>Kaediin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Swahies>assassins --in soloing. </p><p>Swashies> assassins--in utility and flexablity being able to tank for example or invis your group that kind of thing</p>Swashies tend to be prefered over Assassins on raids due to their excellent DPS, De-buffs and utility.</blockquote><p>Now ive never played a Swashie so im not 100% sure what skills they get, but Assassins can and do solo pretty well. Yeah we may only get 1 stun but its long enough to get a masked attack and a steal attack (killing blade, decap, eviscerate etc) off. As long as your not trying to take out grouped ^^^ mobs you should be fine. </p><p><span style="color: #ff0000">acutally, assassins are one of the worst soloers...Swaishes can take on heroics with allot more ease. they get more stuns that helps out allot</span></p><p>You mention that Swashies have better utility because they can tank. I have tanked many times on my assassin and can do very well. I duo tanked the majority of the Claymore quest line with a fury, I have tanked in Mistmore Catacombes with a fury and warden, I have tanked the whole of SoS and taken out every named with me and a fury. When I go into my defensive stance I hit around 60% avoidance and although chain isnt as good as plate if you get raid gear the mit is still pretty decent.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000">Swashies can tank way better, they even have a taunt for such duties and more stuns!  they can group invis, they can mez, they can,,,,,the list goes on see swashies abilities</span></p><p>Assassins CAN tank and they can do a decent job of it.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000">it just depends on the encoutner and the fact if assassins can tank or not is not the question, the question is how can they tank compared to a swashie</span></p><p>Althought assassins may not get loads of debuffs we do get a fair few and good ones to boot. We get very good poison debuffs, with the right AA's and a master Enmesh you can debuff over 4200 poison mit. We can also debuff over 68 defense and 512 physical mitigation. We can also debuff ALL melle and casting skills by between 46+ and 37+ (depending on AA's).</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000">we do get a good poision de-buff true,,,put the de-buffs side by side with a swashie and you will see how lame yours are...and thats what we are talking about here, once again, the comparison,  not if we get any</span></p><p>On raid utility, ignoring our debuffs we also have a very denect agro transfer when put in the MT group. The guild im in raids a fair bit and we used to have issues with our Wizzie pulling agro when he hit for 60k + on a mana burn. Since ive been put in the MT group he very rarely pulls agro. Not much raid utility? we may not have loads of raid enhancing buffs but the few we have can make ALL the difference.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000">Swashies have the same hate transfere we do, in fact its better for its instant where we have to wait 30 seconds.  as well as other buff we just dont get. </span></p><p>So yeah our debuffs may not be huge but they are by no means insignificant.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000">again the topic is not how lame assassins are or if they are insignificant or not, its in comparsion to antoher class, Swashies</span></p></blockquote>

[Siclone]

Cyriex@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote><b><span style="color: #9933cc"><runs in, decapitates Siclone> </span></b><span style="color: #9933cc"><span style="color: #ffff33">I'd like to see a swashbuckler pull that off!</span> </span></blockquote> ha ha, swashies own you in pvp boy <img src="/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Griffter]

So swashi's are much better than assasins? How about some help here SOE!

[joebyrdw]

<p>I like where your heads at Griffter. </p><p>For the OP go to the Combat discussion forums and just make a post that says Assassins Need more of ______.</p><p> Then wait to see how many swashies, brigs and rangers, get all outa whack saying that assassins are awesome and don't need anything.</p><p>Its funny how they come over and promote their class but change their argument competly when they think we might get a new toy.</p>

[Image_Vain]

No you can't have my cheese Tombstone pizza.

[Siclone]

<cite>Griffter wrote:</cite><blockquote>So swashi's are much better than assasins? How about some help here SOE!</blockquote><p> Assassins do more single mob DPS.  Many Assassins when you bring this subject up dont want help, they feel the extra 200-400 zw dps they do over a Swahie makes up for the clear inbalance.</p><p>I dont agree. ...200-400 zw DPS in a raid is not significant </p>

[khufure]

<cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote><p> Assassins do more single mob DPS.  Many Assassins when you bring this subject up dont want help, they feel the extra 200-400 zw dps they do over a Swahie makes up for the clear inbalance.</p>I dont agree. ...200-400 zw DPS in a raid is not significant </blockquote> Uhhh what? Top-end swashbucklers do more dps.  Middle-upper they are about the same with 10x the utility.  The 200-400 dps more you are talking about is only in casual guilds.

[Jayad]

Swashies and assassins are more alike than different. Swashies have more debuffs associated with their attacks, a different AA line if they want to go DPS, mitigation in their defensive stance, and get some taunts. Assassins are more positional and generally speaking purely DPS. Soloing with an assassin depends a lot on whether the mob can see you or no in stealth. If they can't, you can usually land a lot of dmg and win. If they see invis then you will have a much tougher time of it. The positional and stealth requirements are a huge problem with anything that's stronger than a ^ mob (where your stuns take a hit). So it's possible to solo with an assassin, but it's a lot easier with a swashy. (although still difficult compared to many classes)

[Gorth]

<blockquote><blockquote>On raid utility, ignoring our debuffs we also have a very denect agro transfer when put in the MT group. The guild im in raids a fair bit and we used to have issues with our Wizzie pulling agro when he hit for 60k + on a mana burn. Since ive been put in the MT group he very rarely pulls agro. Not much raid utility? we may not have loads of raid enhancing buffs but the few we have can make ALL the difference. <p><span style="color: #ff0000">Swashies have the same hate transfere we do, in fact its better for its instant where we have to wait 30 seconds.  as well as other buff we just dont get. </span></p></blockquote> </blockquote><p> Actually... at master, our hate transfer is better - 29% vs swashy's 28% - with our higher dps (at least compared with every swashy I've raided with) that leads to even more transfer... from personal experience... swashy w/MT, me in a dps group, I have to work my [Removed for Content] off on deagroing, and still pull agro periodically, as do a few other top dps in the raid... same raid, swapping out me for swashy, agro locks solid on the MT, nobody pulls it off... coincidence? =)</p><p>Another thing to consider, in the expansion, our transfer is likely to be upgraded even more - ours is level 53, swashy's is... 66 or 67 if I remember right-  its T7 though, won't get an upgrade in the expansion.</p>

[khufure]

<cite>Gorthag wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Actually... at master, our hate transfer is better - 29% vs swashy's 28% - with our higher dps (at least compared with every swashy I've raided with) that leads to even more transfer... from personal experience... swashy w/MT, me in a dps group, I have to work my [I cannot control my vocabulary] off on deagroing, and still pull agro periodically, as do a few other top dps in the raid... same raid, swapping out me for swashy, agro locks solid on the MT, nobody pulls it off... coincidence? =)</p><p>Another thing to consider, in the expansion, our transfer is likely to be upgraded even more - ours is level 53, swashy's is... 66 or 67 if I remember right-  its T7 though, won't get an upgrade in the expansion.</p></blockquote> Regarding 29% vs 28%; Swashy generate more aggro with debuffs in addition to dps.  They can also taunt.  Last, don't your big abilities land in concealment (-40% aggro each) when you see dispatch etc. raid macros? Regarding your experiences; small sample size.  I think swashy doesn't get to be truly great until they are geared extremely well and have lots of experience. I really don't think we will see the hate transfer upgraded.  Anything more than 29% is too much.

[seigwahrheit]

On a side note.. Swashies are the new easy mode since EoF in pvp; they seriously own face. A decent pvp swash will own everyone; anything and everything in its path; Inspiration + engarde + reach, then throw in your 100% riposte belt and anything is eating floor before you can say 'what the [Removed for Content]?'. As for the PvE aspect I have no clue how they perform.

[HellRaiserXX]

<p>Another reason why a swashys transfer is better is because of the AE DPS they do.  In multiple mob encounters they will draw a lot more hate because of their AEs to the MT.  A good swashy is better for the MT grp by far because they can do pretty close to assassin DPS or more often times and they do far more AE DPS.  If your swashy sucks than an assassin is going to be better because an assassin just builds insane hate no matter what level of play they are at. </p>

[Siclone]

<cite>khufure wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Assassins do more single mob DPS.  Many Assassins when you bring this subject up dont want help, they feel the extra 200-400 zw dps they do over a Swahie makes up for the clear inbalance.</p>I dont agree. ...200-400 zw DPS in a raid is not significant </blockquote> Uhhh what? Top-end swashbucklers do more dps.  Middle-upper they are about the same with 10x the utility.  The 200-400 dps more you are talking about is only in casual guilds. </blockquote><p> It really just depends I was just generalizing</p><p>and on the hate transfere, 28 29, concellement, ,,,ect ect,,,,,there is no significant hate transfere difference.</p><p>When you compare classes you have to keep it broad there are to many speific situations that are exceptions ect.  </p>

[khufure]

<cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>It really just depends I was just generalizing</p><p>and on the hate transfere, 28 29, concellement, ,,,ect ect,,,,,there is no significant hate transfere difference.</p><p>When you compare classes you have to keep it broad there are to many speific situations that are exceptions ect.  </p></blockquote>There is a difference!  Did you read the posts?  Swashies generate more hate.

[Kaediin]

<cite>khufure wrote:</cite><blockquote>I really don't think we will see the hate transfer upgraded.  Anything more than 29% is too much. </blockquote> Master 1 for Paladin amends is currently 41% hate transfer. I think we will see an upgrade if they go down the usual 14 lvl upgrade cycle to give us a t8 transfer. On a personal note im hoping they do something completely different instead of upgradeing skills that peple have spent hunderds of plat getting to M1, but then that may just be wishful thinking.....

[gfx]

Cyriex@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote><b><span style="color: #9933cc"><runs in, decapitates Siclone> </span></b><span style="color: #9933cc"><span style="color: #ffff33">I'd like to see a swashbuckler pull that off!</span> </span> </blockquote>Reach, Inspiration, En Garde ...

[Siclone]

<cite>khufure wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>It really just depends I was just generalizing</p><p>and on the hate transfere, 28 29, concellement, ,,,ect ect,,,,,there is no significant hate transfere difference.</p><p>When you compare classes you have to keep it broad there are to many speific situations that are exceptions ect.  </p></blockquote>There is a difference!  Did you read the posts?  Swashies generate more hate. </blockquote><p>they can, yes.  all I am saying is the difference in the hate generated by a top swahie and the top assassin is not significant enough to make a difference.  The point being if you need hate on the MT either class will do the job fine.</p><p>same thing with the argument about dps when people say this.</p><p>"Well I am an assassin and I did 2.2 ZW and the swashie did 2.0 k so we rule in dps"</p><p>thats silly, the difference between the two is not noticable or relivent.   its the same DPS.  I think we get caught up in the numbers so much that we fail to look at the big picture.  </p><p>I mean think of it this way, does it matter to you if it takes you 15 mins to get to work or 15 mins and 16 seconds?</p>

[khufure]

All top guilds worldwide use swashy for hate transfer instead of assassin.  It's not just dps for swashbucklers, their debuffs generate additional hate and additional utility to be kept alive.  And swashbucklers can taunt.  And swashbucklers have an extra group AE avoid on a short timer.  And when swashbucklers are out of power they will do more dps in the MT group than assassins, as assassins rely on their CA more. Assassins can do the job, but swashbucklers smell like roses in the MT group.  (Unless your swashy sucks or is not geared properly).

[Siclone]

<cite>khufure wrote:</cite><blockquote>All top guilds worldwide use swashy for hate transfer instead of assassin.  It's not just dps for swashbucklers, their debuffs generate additional hate and additional utility to be kept alive.  And swashbucklers can taunt.  And swashbucklers have an extra group AE avoid on a short timer.  And when swashbucklers are out of power they will do more dps in the MT group than assassins, as assassins rely on their CA more. Assassins can do the job, but swashbucklers smell like roses in the MT group.  (Unless your swashy sucks or is not geared properly). </blockquote><p>well ok, Its hard to imgaine a tank loseing argo cause he had an assassin giving him hate and not a swashy</p><p>but I guess is it possible.  </p>

[HellRaiserXX]

disso uses an assasin, whether thats when they dont have a swashy or they just dont have a swashy I didnt ask

[seigwahrheit]

None of the top Freeport raiding guilds use a swashie ill tell you that much for free =P

[Netzoko]

Hmm, interesting. So, what's the reason to make an Assassin over a Swash/Brig? Single target DPS? PvP utility? I'm sure theres something.

[HellRaiserXX]

Playstyle.  Play what you want, assassins are fun cause they have massive dmg attacks from stealth and really require a sharp player to do well in every aspect of play.  If your looking for something is going to be highly desired by a raid/group and soloes well with lots of different utility based attributes than you should play a rogue. Given a choice a raid will take a rogue over an assassin any day if they had none of either.

[Siclone]

<cite>HellRaiserXX wrote:</cite><blockquote>Playstyle.  Play what you want, assassins are fun cause they have massive dmg attacks from stealth and really require a sharp player to do well in every aspect of play.  If your looking for something is going to be highly desired by a raid/group and soloes well with lots of different utility based attributes than you should play a rogue. Given a choice a raid will take a rogue over an assassin any day if they had none of either.</blockquote><p> this is well said.  When someone is new to scouts or the game they want the stright truth so they can decide what road to go, and it takes tons of time and engery to level a toon.  </p>

[Siclone]

<cite>Netzoko wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hmm, interesting. So, what's the reason to make an Assassin over a Swash/Brig? Single target DPS? PvP utility? I'm sure theres something. </blockquote><p> play style,  as stated above, swashies are allot easier to play too some could get bored.  I got bored playing a bruiser.  It was so easy.  </p><p>also, I suspect, that Assassins out dps rogues in group play.  </p>

[HollyW07]

<p>I love my assassin and wouldn't trade her for any toon in the world. I'm getting alot better with learning the ins and outs of the class. I've never played a swash but my mom has a lvl 70 swash and she loves it. </p><p>Some of the main differences that I have noticed is that swashies have alot less positional attacks than assassins do. They're better with AE combat arts, and assassins do better against single target mobs. I would say that because swashies have less positional based attacks they're better at soloing too. Or, I should say, soloing is easier since you dont' have to stun, jump behind, stealth and then backstab. </p><p>However, that said, I can honestly say it has gotten ALOT easier for me to solo at lvl 44. I have alot more regular attacks that AREN'T position based now, and can kill yellow mobs. Though I can't by any means take on heroics, I can hold my own pretty good. Still, I'm very good at running away too. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />    </p>