Raiding Troubadour - Weapon's to get

[Antryg Mistrose]

I have gone back 10 pages of threads, and can't see anything definitive, so: Melee makes up a pretty small component of my DPS (15% in the EH parse I checked - including procs).  Having the 30sec PotM AA which I cast often, I'm not looking for miracles, just to eek out a bit more.  I have more access to getting fabled dual wields than 1 handers (too many other scouts/tanks lusting after them).   Looking at the cast time on the spells I use most, I'm getting very little use out of the weapons I'm using at present: <ul><li>Adamantine Dragonfang (22-66) 1.6 delay, 28str, 12sta, 26agi, 16int, 100hp, 110 pwr, 55 rating (+16INT - yummy) </li><li>Hopeshredder, axe (24-44) 1.1delay(ugh), 28Str 31Sta 115HP, 25pwr, 62 rating  (procs 8-900 mental damage though which is nice)</li><li>Ezaeri, Sword of Rending, sword (20-60), 1.6 delay, 30str, 125hp, 75pwr, 50.0 rating   (melee proc)</li><li>Grizzfazzle's dirk, dagger (28-52) 1.6 delay, 27str, 80hp, 5pierce, 50 rating (procs pretty often)</li><li>Folded Steel Skewer, rapier  (17-50) 1.3 delay, 24str, 6sta, 24agi, 120hp, 65pwr, 3 piercing, 51 rating </li><li>Dark Linger (26-77) 2.0delay, 20agi, 45hp, 45pwr, 51.4 rating </li><li>Steelrend's Flight Blade, sword (17-52), 20str, 40hp, 40pwr 4parry, 4slash, 1.6 delay, 43.5 rating (+4 slashing)</li></ul>Pierce & Slash I don't have over 360, regardless of what I equip, so I'm only hitting 70% ish My guess as to my best current combo is Dark Linger (slowest weapon I have and with a decent damage range) + Dragonfang with the best stats, and slip the Flight Blade into a Turnstrike macro  (+4 slashing) Is there some uber 1 hander I should be saving up DKP for (and a nice stat shield to go with it), or speciific dual weilder's I should be keeping an eye out for?  (I'm not changing KoS AA lines - DKTM & Bladedance, and do NOT solo (or even group much) with this char.

[Mulilla]

I was lucky enough to win the Grinning Dirk of Horror from Essence of Fear in Lyceum and i must admit that i love it.  The 4.0 delay makes it proc like crazy.

[Nainitsuj]

<p>I use the Longsword of Perfection with Hopeshredder.  With dual prop. and templar AA  proc (name?) I'll still have Hopeshredder proc the average amount (3.6 I think) in a minute (Running potm / DR /JC combo).  When I'm not trying to dps I hit about 650.  If I am trying I hit 900.</p><p>The other troub uses Karana's Thundercloud.  He always out parses me from 40  to 300 dps.  We share the same Bard AA setup (Str / Wis), but Troub AA he's spec'd for Sonic Int. while I'm down Demoralization.  </p><p>What I'd like to run with though is Longsword of Perfection with Bee Sting.</p>

[Canuckian]

<p>I never managed to get my hands on the GDoH, and I have yet to see a Bisected Sabre.</p><p>I generally use Longsword of Perfection and Waning Moon Cutter for lack of better weapons atm.  The proc on the WMC goes off often and gives +25% DPS buff.</p><p>I have a secondary set of weapons that have no proc, but are adorned with the Heal effect item that I use when the situation dictates, one of which is the Bee Sting.</p><p>Ideally, for the short term, I would like to see the Bisected Sabre with the Waning Moon Cutting to see how that combo would measure up.</p>

[RanmaBoyType]

<p>i would like to point out, my trouby does not have the best weapons, or spells, but i have gotten her to parse on average 500-600 on raids now.  according to act my melee is at minimum 30% of that, so your melee damage is awfully low, so i have to ask the next questions:</p><p>do you stay back and sing all your songs first, then run in and melee?</p><p>or do you run in and melee, and sing your songs between swings (i personally wait like 0.5 sec between each song/debuff/nuke, etc to allow for melee auto attack, and it improved my dps by almost 150 on average)</p><p>i use an adamantine dragonfang and dark linger currently</p>

[ForgottenFoundling]

<cite>RanmaBoyType wrote:</cite><blockquote>(i personally wait like 0.5 sec between each song/debuff/nuke, etc to allow for melee auto attack, and it improved my dps by almost 150 on average) <p>i use an adamantine dragonfang and dark linger currently</p></blockquote><p> You're actually robbing yourself of dps this way as not all of your melee auto attacks are missed between spells/ca's.  They will cue if they are due and can go off even if you have another spell queued.  Granted you will get at most one attack off from your main and offhand, but there isn't much of a reason to wait especially if you have a high delay weap in your main hand.</p><p>And even though it's a PITA, Eli's is your friend.  It's dmg/recast is the best of all our spells and it will proc more than anything else.</p>

[Antryg Mistrose]

Sometimes I stay ranged and use a bow to make jousting easier, but no, normally I'm right in there swinging away.  I do lead off with all debuffs, and try to maintain them (bar the invis attack).  I have reasonably high INT, and all my damage spells are all Master.  The weird thing is I normally parse around the same or a bit more than another troub with better gear (including a nice 1 hander & shield), but his autoattack damage is a much higher proportion of his dps - around 30%. DPS is hard to compare between different raid forces, my relative dps seems low - around 500-800, while the raid as a whole is doing mid/high 20's.  I do hit PotM on every fight including trash, often with Jester's cap so it refreshes on longer fights.  Currently specced Resonance/Degradations, although I'll probbly drop degradations for some more spread damage increasers when the price drops from 10plat again.

[Pogopuschel]

Whatever you do, go with high delay weapons. It is a flaw of the combat system that you'll get better results from a weapon with 4s delay and a damage rating of 50 compared to a 2s delay weapon with a damage rating of 60 - that doesn't only go for procs but for actual dps . Try to finish Wurmslayer HQ if you can <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> nice 3s delay dual wield weapon from that.

[RanmaBoyType]

<p><blockquote>You're actually robbing yourself of dps this way as not all of your melee auto attacks are missed between spells/ca's.  They will cue if they are due and can go off even if you have another spell queued.  Granted you will get at most one attack off from your main and offhand, but there isn't much of a reason to wait especially if you have a high delay weap in your main hand.</blockquote></p><p>I have to argue this.  If i always keep spells queued i will not auto attack between them, i have tested and retested this many times with my several different melee/spell caster hybrids.</p>

[Antryg Mistrose]

<cite>RanmaBoyType wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>You're actually robbing yourself of dps this way as not all of your melee auto attacks are missed between spells/ca's.  They will cue if they are due and can go off even if you have another spell queued.  Granted you will get at most one attack off from your main and offhand, but there isn't much of a reason to wait especially if you have a high delay weap in your main hand.</blockquote><p>I have to argue this.  If i always keep spells queued i will not auto attack between them, i have tested and retested this many times with my several different melee/spell caster hybrids.</p></blockquote>Think you need to test gain <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[KazzySoJaz]

<p>Bisected Saber (Rumbler in EH) main-hand, and GDoH (Essence of Fear in LOA) off-hand are the two best for DPS IMO.</p><p>As far as melee goes, it made up 13% of my DPS the other night in MMiS when I parsed 956 DPS on Zonewide (includes all trash/nameds).</p><p>Currently, I am using Hopeshredder (procs nicely with blessings and propagation) and  Adamantine Dragonfang  (for lack of better weapons, have yet to see Saber drop or GDoH for that matter).</p>

[ForgottenFoundling]

Antryg Mistrose wrote: <blockquote><cite>RanmaBoyType wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>You're actually robbing yourself of dps this way as not all of your melee auto attacks are missed between spells/ca's.  They will cue if they are due and can go off even if you have another spell queued.  Granted you will get at most one attack off from your main and offhand, but there isn't much of a reason to wait especially if you have a high delay weap in your main hand.</blockquote><p>I have to argue this.  If i always keep spells queued i will not auto attack between them, i have tested and retested this many times with my several different melee/spell caster hybrids.</p></blockquote>Think you need to test gain <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>Mos Def - I know for a fact that if a melee attack is due it will swing before spells/CAs. 

[peepshow]

Hmm, are you sure that auto attack will go off even if you have spells in queued ? Cause now I'm waiting between spells just to get my free hit, but I will surely stop that if the melee auto attacks go off anyways.. Does it work no matter if its a spell or a CA in queue ? Thnx

[ForgottenFoundling]

<p>guys, this is really easy to test...</p><p>Find random weak mob</p><p>fire shrill from distance and queue eli's, then queue steal essence when eli's is casting</p><p>When mob is dead, look at your damage (you don't even need a parser).  You have not given any time to melee swing and the swing has been due.  If you have done any melee damage at all between these 3 spells, melee attacks fire between queued spells.  If you haven't done any melee damage (and actually were in range), then melee attacks do not queue.</p><p>The entire point to using high delay weapons is null and void if melee attacks do not swing between queue spells/ca's.  </p>

[mirage06]

Autoattacks will go off during spell recovery times still, since they are queued just like you can queue a spell.

[vladsamier]

<p>I personally use:</p><p>Primary- Grinning Dirk of Horror Secondary- Dirk of Nightfall</p><p>I have heard complaints from some about using the Bisected Saber because of the lack of +slash mods compared to the availability of +pierce mods. The weapons that you listed all have at the most 2.0 second delay, which means you are missing out on more autoattacks between spells/CAs. If you can get your hands on a Grinning Dirk of Horror, your dps should improve quite a bit. </p>

[mirage06]

2 seconds delay is still better than 1.6, is it not? Procs will go off more often and the damage spread that the slow weapons usually have makes crits very nice sometimes <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Pogopuschel]

<cite>mirage06 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Procs will go off more often </blockquote>Hmm ... partially true, I'd say. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Procs from weapons will only go off when you swing the primary weapon. From the mechanics, the normalization of the proc % is done to even out the absolute number of procs between low and high delay weapons, so in that respect they are equal. I bet  if you were only auto-attacking, you would not have an advantage from a  low delay weapon. Factoring in spells and combat arts you will lose less auto-attacks with slow delay weapons, so you could indeed say procs will go off more often. What I'm trying to point out is that the weapon itself does not give you the advantage, it comes with using combat arts and spells. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[vladsamier]

<p>If you are spamming CAs/Spells...</p><p>Faster weapons = more auto-attacks being wasted between combat arts/spells... The lower delay weapons also have a lower chance to proc...Generally they hit for smaller amounts of damage... So its kind of a snowball effect as far as procs between CAs/Spells... You're losing out on autoattacks and the faster weapons also have a lower proc % and damage per swing.</p><p>Longer delay weapons = less auto-attack interuptions from spells/CAs... Higher chance to proc when you do hit with auto-attack... Hit for more damage generally.</p>

[peepshow]

Uyaem@Runnyeye wrote: <blockquote><cite>mirage06 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Procs will go off more often </blockquote>Hmm ... partially true, I'd say. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Procs from weapons will only go off when you swing the primary weapon. From the mechanics, the normalization of the proc % is done to even out the absolute number of procs between low and high delay weapons, so in that respect they are equal. I bet  if you were only auto-attacking, you would not have an advantage from a  low delay weapon. Factoring in spells and combat arts you will lose less auto-attacks with slow delay weapons, so you could indeed say procs will go off more often. What I'm trying to point out is that the weapon itself does not give you the advantage, it comes with using combat arts and spells. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote> So if I have GDoH in offhand with a proc from Adorn, its not working at all ?

[aelder~]

<cite>peepshow wrote:</cite><blockquote>Uyaem@Runnyeye wrote: <blockquote><cite>mirage06 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Procs will go off more often </blockquote>Hmm ... partially true, I'd say. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Procs from weapons will only go off when you swing the primary weapon. From the mechanics, the normalization of the proc % is done to even out the absolute number of procs between low and high delay weapons, so in that respect they are equal. I bet  if you were only auto-attacking, you would not have an advantage from a  low delay weapon. Factoring in spells and combat arts you will lose less auto-attacks with slow delay weapons, so you could indeed say procs will go off more often. What I'm trying to point out is that the weapon itself does not give you the advantage, it comes with using combat arts and spells. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote> So if I have GDoH in offhand with a proc from Adorn, its not working at all ? </blockquote><p>Nope.  If I understand the mechanics correctly, you are fine.  It's just that your chance to proc a weapon adornment (whether affixed to primary/secondary and I *think* ranged) is based off the swing of the primary hand.  So if you have runic on primary and serpentine on scondary, you could see a magic and/or a poison proc on the swing of your primary hand (as I understand it they both get an independent "roll" to proc on a successful hit of the primary).  When the off hand hits, you would not get any proc from those 2 adornments.</p><p>With respect to ranged proc, can anyone verify that bow/satchel proc and/or adornment on ranged goes off on primary hand attack? And if so, do the adornments on primary/secondary have chance to spark when you hit with a bow attack? </p>

[vladsamier]

All melee procs are based off of the primary weapon on auto-attack.

[peepshow]

<p>So if I use GDoH with a Poison proc (From adornment) in offhand and Wurmslayer in main hand with another Adorn proc I will still proc both types, but Offhand proc works from Main hand, is that correct ?</p><p>Or Should I just put a +Combat skill adornon my offhand since it rarely proc's anyways ?</p>

[ForgottenFoundling]

<p>I don't agree with what folks are saying re: melee procs.</p><p>spell based procs - main hand only</p><p>weapon specific procs & adorns - proc off of the hand the weap is equipped to (I don't care what your adorn says, this is my experience)</p>

[mirage06]

<cite>ForgottenFoundling wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>weapon specific procs & adorns - proc off of the hand the weap is equipped to (I don't care what your adorn says, this is my experience)</p></blockquote>This is true. Spell based procs (aka buffs that give you a proc) do indeed go off from primary only.

[Twinklin]

I have several styles of play and depending on who I'm raiding with and what mob we're killing my style varies very differently. Currently I'm playing one hander/round shield using the Lash of the beastmaster and archaic roundshield. Both of these items have nice INT so the dmg of my spells goes up a good deal. I have also been known to duel wield in the past and when doing so i usually use the adamantine droag sword and dark linger though I'd love to get my hands on better duel wield weapons. I'm personally liking the one hand and shield combo due to the fact the raid groups i've been with recently don't time aoe's so even though I get in, debuff, and get out, sometimes I get caught in the aoe and the roundshield tends to save my butt. I will parse around 600 consistantly while soloing, but in raids I concentrate more on casting jesters on MT and high melee dpsers in the raid force, maestro, and debuffing so my dps goes down a good bit. I play to make everyone else's dps higher rather than worrying so much about mine. I like playing my troub as 95% support and by doing so have doubled some wizzies' dps and have added 700+ dps to melee dpsers parses. To me that makes a much bigger difference to the raid than my 600 dps. I'm STR/WIS spec and sonic int, though for the trouby tree I basically just maxed out all the support arts and main buffs like brias, aria, jesters, maestro, and zanders. I didn't put many points into combat arts at all.

[Pogopuschel]

Wait... are shields actually able to block magical attacks? I never gave it much thought tbh... In EoF, I cannot think of a mob that has a non-magical AoE, so your shield won't help you much. There's a couple of "Barrage"-like attacks ("frontal AE&quot<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> that inflict crush/pierce/slash, but of course you'd need to be in front of the mob which is where you're not supposed to be. KoS zones do have a fair share of non-magical AoEs though.

[aelder~]

<p>Shields were more useful in KoS because of melee based AoEs--archaic round for example even had the vs. crush bonus too.  Shields can help on non-melee AoEs as well though: show me a weapon that has 800-900 resist stats as many shields do (think flameshield from claymore line that has >1k heat but no actual shield factor).</p><p>If you are not timing a joust and just hoping for the best, a shield might be the difference in getting one-shotted, while the moderate difference in your few melee hits won't make/break the encounter.</p>

[Pogopuschel]

Well duh .. I was thinking about the block chance because that's what first comes to my mind when I hear "shield". <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Nvm my posting then, wasn't thinking of magic mit attributes :/

[Antryg Mistrose]

Didnt' think of it at the time but - Bows? The Fabled are much harder for a mere troub to get hold (thanks sooooo much for the daze on PotM SoE!).  Attainably the Unrest Torn Ligament Legendary one is actually quite nice (deaggro proc aside), as it has decent Str/Int.  (Replacing my very cool looking but not so Uber Raincaller (Heritage Quest). Any other nice ones?  (preferably that I don't have to cloimb over too many panting Rangers, Assassins, Berserkers, Guardians, SKs, Paladins .... to get?)

[Nainitsuj]

<p>Rigid Scale Bow +40 Str +30 Agi +125 health +175 power 204 - 817 (113.5 Rating) 9 seconds 2 - 40 meters Scale Slice   413 slash damage / 1.8 times per minute</p><p>That's my bow.</p><p>Also I don't bother with shields for the fact resists mean d*ck and our chance to block is so low.  Please show me a fabled round shield that offers as much as a weapon and I might rethink my opinion.</p>

[jedce]

<p>in bow slot i have the star darkened loongbow from MIS off mayonmg</p><p>+28str +12 sta +27agi +14int</p><p>+125 health +145 power</p><p>146-829(108.4 rating)</p><p>9 sec</p><p>2-35 meters</p><p>confusion</p><p>  slows targets by 40%</p><p>does not effect epic targets</p><p>my bow.. i wuv it</p><p>1.5-3k not crit hits with adamantine bodkin arrows</p><p>weps right now are.. in raid</p><p>GDoH priamry and hopeshredder offhand</p><p>with power proc on both... they help.. god i hate power drains</p><p>for soloing i used the folded scale blade and the eyestaker shield og gazing off cruor in DT... and the +to avoidance (shield has the +67 vrs slash etc.) helps a bunch soloing</p><p>+the +metal and div resists on sheld help alot on avatars where i spend way to much time ranged just to avoid getting squished.</p>

[BadManHip]

Hey guys, i just got Windrazor tonight, and i know the delay on it is terrible because its way too fast but, what would be a good adornment for it. Sorry i don't know how to link items.

[ForgottenFoundling]

<cite>BadManHippo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hey guys, i just got Windrazor tonight, and i know the delay on it is terrible because its way too fast but, what would be a good adornment for it. Sorry i don't know how to link items. </blockquote> I'd say go with a scintillating runic temper for the magic proc since you'll most likely upgrade to something else.  No sense on wasting money on anything more than a treasured adorn.

[Guy De Alsace]

<p>What legendary or worse would be good for someone starting out in raids? I've only just done my second ever raid with my level 68 troub and I'm using Dark Linger (with scintillating septic pith) and a recently bought Ancient Velium Hand Axe. Are these any good?</p>

[ForgottenFoundling]

Guy De Alsace wrote: <blockquote><p>What legendary or worse would be good for someone starting out in raids? I've only just done my second ever raid with my level 68 troub and I'm using Dark Linger (with scintillating septic pith) and a recently bought Ancient Velium Hand Axe. Are these any good?</p></blockquote> Dark Linger is decent as it has decent delay, good dmg spread and a nice proc.  I'd say get "Blood Spiller" from Unrest as well.  It has good str & int and 2% proc.

[Thorn4]

628 Rapier - the damage may not be the greatest, but the proc is unbelievable and will go off from Ranged - Also, I would reccomend starting the Wurmslayer quest.

[vladsamier]

Weylon@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>628 Rapier - the damage may not be the greatest, but the proc is unbelievable and will go off from Ranged - Also, I would reccomend starting the Wurmslayer quest. </blockquote><p> If you get the 628 Rapier, keep in mind that it is a 1 handed weapon. You could go for the ranger approach and use the 1 hander + a shield that procs off of ranged attacks along with a decent bow. A good shield that would compliment the 628 Rapier would be the roundsheild of Harmony (don't remember the exact name) out of the CL T5 instance.</p><p>I personally hate this approach because if you get 2 or so misses on a 8-9 second delay bow, thats a huge decrease in dps. </p>

[Thorn4]

628 is now one-handed? /boggle

[Brimestar]

Uyaem@Runnyeye wrote: <blockquote><cite>mirage06 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Procs will go off more often </blockquote>Hmm ... partially true, I'd say. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Procs from weapons will only go off when you swing the primary weapon. From the mechanics, the normalization of the proc % is done to even out the absolute number of procs between low and high delay weapons, so in that respect they are equal. I bet  if you were only auto-attacking, you would not have an advantage from a  low delay weapon. Factoring in spells and combat arts you will lose less auto-attacks with slow delay weapons, so you could indeed say procs will go off more often. What I'm trying to point out is that the weapon itself does not give you the advantage, it comes with using combat arts and spells. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>So, is a higher delay weapon better? Or a faster weapon?

[Pogopuschel]

<cite>Brimestar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Uyaem@Runnyeye wrote: <blockquote><cite>mirage06 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Procs will go off more often </blockquote>Hmm ... partially true, I'd say. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Procs from weapons will only go off when you swing the primary weapon. From the mechanics, the normalization of the proc % is done to even out the absolute number of procs between low and high delay weapons, so in that respect they are equal. I bet  if you were only auto-attacking, you would not have an advantage from a  low delay weapon. Factoring in spells and combat arts you will lose less auto-attacks with slow delay weapons, so you could indeed say procs will go off more often. What I'm trying to point out is that the weapon itself does not give you the advantage, it comes with using combat arts and spells. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>So, is a higher delay weapon better? Or a faster weapon? </blockquote> For a Troubadour, I'd say generally a high delay weapon is better for the following reasons: 1)The damage range/spread is higher. Since crits are up to 1.3 times the upper value and you generally have 7-10% crit chance, you will gain slightly 2) The actualy damage you do scales as a factor wi th your strength (not 100% sure about that <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) so you will gain slightly 3)When spam-casting spells/CAs, manthematically you will lose (or rather delay) the least auto-attack rounds over the length of a fight. Big gain . In other words, with a bit of haste and fast weapons your auto-attack is generally ready a few tenths of a second before the end of your long-cast spells (Eli's, Essence). The auto-attack will not happen until the spell is cast. Over the duration of a fight, the cumulated amount of time where your auto-attack is ready but cannot happen yet is higher on a faster weapon. That is why you lose there. 4) If an item description says "procs 1.8 times per minute", this is normalized to a 3s delay weapon/CA so that regardless of the delay of a weapon you  get an equal amount of procs (lower delay weapons  = lower proc chance). That is in an ideal world, where auto-attacking itself is enough. However, if you factor in (3) though, since you lose more auto-attack time and procs only go off on successful hits, procs will occur less often (since the normalization does not include lost auto-attack time). That's something that I can't prove so far, but it's the general opinion of the Troubs around - and it makes sense, since the proc normalization cannot possibly factor in possibly delayed auto-attack rounds, if you know what I mean... <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />