Exploring Monk Tanking ability.

[TheHidden]

<p>As ive stated several times. im still in the process of learning the monk class. i just thought id share with you all my latest trial runs iwth the monk. </p><p>Before i start i have to let you know that im still only in legendary gear. 2477 63.3% avoidance. 7.5k hitpoints. </p><p>mos trestsists at heat cold poison des around 2500 magic divine mental all over 5k and poison at 3.9k</p><p>2x dps adornments. attack is 1379 using two store bought ancient velium claws. DR 51.1 I have all stances at master1, group taunt at adept 1. single taunt at adept 3. and taunt proc at master 1. all stats are solo. </p><p>can post other gear setup later. anyways i recently started doing runs on tanking different instances with a regular group setup of Monk Dirge Defiler Conjurer</p><p>This is a great setup. So far ive tanked with ease  Nest: childplay. i think i tanked in total offensive stance. any monk should be able to tank this Den of devourer: again tanking with spider stance. this is easily on farming  status with that group setup. Vaults: again farming status for our little group. end mob really is no challange at all with our group. no power regen issues no heal issues. but i do use defenseive stance. our latest try has been OOB. i have tanked this zone successfully both times we have been in there. with 1 or 2 deaths. the group even successfully tanked 3x lvl 72 heroic ^^^ mobs at one time. no issues at all on nameds with no one dropping below 75% power during any real fight.  that i can tank that instance makes me happy. but i have to admit it has more to do with the buffs and wards placed on me. as well as the amount of debuffs going into the mobs. our dirge is forced to have up percussion of stone. this helps tremendously. hes also got his power regen, dps buff, group agi/str buff. group crush/slash/pierce buff. went with that to offset the defensive stance reduction in those areas to help maintain the aggro from our proc. if we dont hit our mobs. aggro is gonna be a problem. Defiler has pretty much all his standard buffs on me. im not too familar with the class so cant tell you for sure. anyways. we easily did whole soon in 1.15 hours. but all members in the group know what they are doing and know how to work together for best possible effects. we are going to run through the following zones. Valdoons. - should not be an issue. HoF - this one im very uncertain off. suspect a fail in this zone to be honest. sothis from what ive seen hits way too hard. and that adds are just a lil too much. and not enough dps to burn sothis in time. Unrest - yeah we gonna try it. but not as a 4 group. we will be trying this out with a Warden and an illusionist for added healage dps and mob control. from what i hear this is a suicide run having a monk tank this zone. but hey.. i love a challenge. the extra resists from both those classes shoudl help a ton. and the wardens buff to cursh/slash/pierce as well as the mitigation bonus is a must. the illusionist mezzing is also a must i think. i guess we will see how far we get <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. will make sure to let you all know how it goes! DEVS take note: this does not mean the brawler class is balanced with other fighter classes. we still need some lovin for raids. and a slight increase to our tanking abillity would not go astray. we can tank. but we need really specialised groups. thats hard to find! </p>

[mr23sgte]

Don't forget to add Nizara to your list ................. good luck with the last named.

[Gasheron]

Unrest is doable with a Monk tanking. In fact, you'll probably find Unrest about as difficult as HoF at max as long as you know what to do for certain fights (the bartender, the gnome, and the hag), and where the hidden mobs are (such as in the dining room). I myself tanked Unrest several times right after it came out as a 70 monk with no masters and no fabled equip. You should have no problems with your setup.

[Couching]

Basically, monk is balanced in group encounters comparing to other fighters. We did slightly more damages and tank a bit worse than other plate tanks in group encounters. The reason that we can deal more damages than plate tank is that we have highest self haste in game. However, it is a major design flaw that brawler should be deal more damages than other fighters by better combat arts or aa trees rather than self buffs. The reason that we tank a bit worse is that mitigation works better than avoidance and lack of encounter and passive taunts. So it is not a big deal if any brawler can tank any group instance such as Nizara or Castle of MM, not to say any other easier instance. The problem of class balance of brawler is in raid. In raid, the tanking capability between plate tank and brawler is enlarged since plate tank can hit 70%+ avoidance in raid group set up and we can't hit mitigation as high as plate tank. Our EoF fabled suit is around 2200 mitigations and plate suit is around 3700 mitigations. See the problem here? When a plate tank has similar avoidance with extra 1500+ mitigations than brawler, we are [Removed for Content]. The worse is that we have problem to lock down multiple-targets encounters in raid. There is no way for brawler to taunt 2+ add mobs off mage dpsers in raid since we have only 1 group encounter taunt and none of passive taunt. We can't even be a solid off tank in raid. For dps in raid, we are screwed again. Most fighters will deal more damages than brawlers with right group setup. Why? Most fabled geared monk can hit 120-136 self haste. It's about 105%-110%. In other word, we can only benefit 10%-15% haste buff from group since the haste cap is 125%. For example, if any other fighter gets a 67 haste buff from illusionist, he can get benefit at least 50-60%% in haste comparing to our 10%-15%. I need to point out that it is the major design flaw. Developers have stated that brawler is on top dps of fighters. The reason that we can deal more damages is based on our self haste rather than combat arts or weapon with advanced achievement points. It is so wrong since it limited us getting benefit from group buffs. Besides, we have worst kos and eof tree. How could we have less critical hit than guardian and berserker in KoS tree since brawler should be on top of dps in fighters? How could guardian and zerker get 76% double attack with bucker and we get nothing for double attack? It's too ridiculous that a fighter with 1 hand weapon can hit almost as many time as our dual wielder! It's a slap in our face ! We get nothing for double attack and less critical hit than guardian and zerker. Why? None of the developer can ever answer this question.  

[Shankonia]

<p>Right on Couching, right on. </p><p>Maybe if we shout it out enough they'll take notice.</p><p>We do get DBL attack btw....just can't use it w/ weapons....which is still a slap in the face....literally.</p>

[Nerill]

<cite>couching wrote:</cite><blockquote>Besides, we have worst kos and eof tree. How could we have less critical hit than guardian and berserker in KoS tree since brawler should be on top of dps in fighters?   </blockquote>I <b>really, <u>REALLY</u></b> would like a Dev answer to this ! <img src="/smilies/0320a00cb4bb5629ab9fc2bc1fcc4e9e.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Zooce]

<p>You may be impressed more that you thought about our tanking as you have a defiler in the group. These (together with Mystics, i.e. the Shaman) are the best healers for monks by far. This is because they 'heal' using wards, which takes a lot of the sting out of the spike damage you get with monks (due to the lower mit). They also have the best HP buff in game (Mystics buff STA not HP). Defilers also debuff the named nicely to make them easier for you!</p><p>Try the same tanking, e.g. the statue named in HoF, with an Inq instead of the defiler, and you'll see the problem we have with tanking! </p>

[Couching]

<cite>Zooce wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>You may be impressed more that you thought about our tanking as you have a defiler in the group. These (together with Mystics, i.e. the Shaman) are the best healers for monks by far. This is because they 'heal' using wards, which takes a lot of the sting out of the spike damage you get with monks (due to the lower mit). They also have the best HP buff in game (Mystics buff STA not HP). Defilers also debuff the named nicely to make them easier for you!</p><p>Try the same tanking, e.g. the statue named in HoF, with an Inq instead of the defiler, and you'll see the problem we have with tanking! </p></blockquote>The trick to own the statue named in HoF is to cure the mitigation debuff as soon as possible. It lowers your mitigations over 2k if memory serves me right. As long as the mitigation debuff is cured fast enough, any healer can keep us up. I have done HoF with a lv68 fury in a group of 5. I have also done HoF with a pal as group healer in a pick up group and killed every named except Doomlord. We didn't give it a try though. A lot of brawlers made a wrong way to gear them up. They have high agi but pretty low mitigations and hp. That's why they can't be a good tank in group encounters nor dealing damages. If you want to deal more damages, focus on your str till over 600. If you want to be a good tank, focus on mitigation and get more sta/hp as possible as you can. If you focused on agi, you are gimped.

[Bladewind]

<cite>Zooce wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>You may be impressed more that you thought about our tanking as you have a defiler in the group. These (together with Mystics, i.e. the Shaman) are the best healers for monks by far. This is because they 'heal' using wards, which takes a lot of the sting out of the spike damage you get with monks (due to the lower mit). They also have the best HP buff in game (Mystics buff STA not HP). Defilers also debuff the named nicely to make them easier for you!</p><p>Try the same tanking, e.g. the statue named in HoF, with an Inq instead of the defiler, and you'll see the problem we have with tanking! </p></blockquote><p> The specific issue with this mob is the trauma debuff as mentioned above.  Your healer will learn very quickly in t7 to keep the tank cured.</p><p>I've had zero issues tanking every heroic instance of this game with a lone healer.  I've done every 'tough' t7 instance with a lone warden, a lone templar, and a lone fury healing - never had any problems.  With the exception of nizara, unrest, and mm castle, I've tanked all instances without issue as part of a 3 person group.  For heroic content, we work just fine.</p>

[Gasheron]

<cite>couching wrote:</cite><blockquote> A lot of brawlers made a wrong way to gear them up. They have high agi but pretty low mitigations and hp. That's why they can't be a good tank in group encounters nor dealing damages. If you want to deal more damages, focus on your str till over 600. If you want to be a good tank, focus on mitigation and get more sta/hp as possible as you can. If you focused on agi, you are gimped. </blockquote><p> This statement is why I believe that Monks are currently broken. We are a class that is supposed to tank through avoidance, not mitigation. Yet, agi gives so little to agi that the best way for us to tank is to ignore it entirely and go for sta/str. It makes no sense, and needs to be remedied.</p><p></end rant></p><p>On another note, I've tanked HoF several times myself without a shaman. Also, I still don't have a single mastered skill, or any fabled. Our tanking ability depends on only a few things, which is our attention to the battlefield, our use of what abilities we do have, and the skill of the healer.</p>

[selch]

<p>You have to take more things in situation, rights or wrongs:</p><p>Game as it is designed, a monk requiring 1 tier above equipment to equivalently tank same content. (eg. Fabled armor requirement for tanking group content as easy as another plate tank tanking same group content with a legendary set) If gear tiers are same with another plate tank then a monk requiring 2 healers to tank with same ease of the same tier gear plate tank.</p><p>I'm pretty sure there will be people "oh, I tanked that this etc." , you may agree or disagree, this is how game designed. Nothing is more lame than saying you tank heroic content with your fabled gear. </p><p>Warriors probably have lame excuse "omg we dont have dps", we all know that's a lie, well, as monks , be grateful to be compared to duel wield to 1-handed dps which is close to us.</p><p>Let me say: Avoidance is not they key where it should be. Granted, it is nice to have but what does it have a purpose when a bulk plate person can avoid at same rate with a light armor against named heroics and above? NOTHING.</p><p>May your avoidance value be good against solo mobs and lowly heroics, that's what we are assigned for in EQ2.</p>

[mellowknees72]

<cite>Gasheron wrote:</cite><blockquote>This statement is why I believe that Monks are currently broken. We are a class that is supposed to tank through avoidance, not mitigation. Yet, agi gives so little to agi that the best way for us to tank is to ignore it entirely and go for sta/str. It makes no sense, and needs to be remedied.</blockquote><p>We're broken?</p><p>Ack!  I'd better quit fighting stuff and winning, then. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Of course, I'm just a little solo/duo monk...I don't raid.  So, perhaps we're broken when it comes to raiding?  As far as group content goes, I put monks near the top of the dogpile for tankability.  Unfortunately, there are some berserkers sitting on the very tip-top of that pile, but I'm working on getting my katanas through the cracks in their armor. <img src="/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Harvash]

<p>Just wanted to throw out a comment of my own...and I have said this stuff else where here too.  Monks are possibly one of the best Instance tanks available based on a number of factors.  I have had zero issues tanking anything non-epic.  As a matter of course, we usually try the plate tanks if there is one in group, and ultimatly the healers push me back to the tank role.</p><p>As far as epics, I have had occassion to off tank adds or slip in when things go screwy...throw up tsunami, throw down the mit stance and taunt proc...hold 'em till the MT/MA gets back on their feet (rez sick wipe ftw!)  No real probs here either...only epic I have ever fully tanked was the one in PoF (for peacock, gives Rod Of Rathe for last update prior to godking raid)  didnt have any issues, however it was one mob - not clearing zones.  While I would luv to give raid tanking a whirl, I am quite happy with the tanks we have for this now, so no real point to it.</p><p> Zones incl. CoV, OoB, Nest, HoF, Dens, etc...all cleared, no issues.</p><p> Good Luck with your tanking, and dont worry about public opin - their just jealous... =P</p>

[Gasheron]

Pipes@Najena wrote: <blockquote><cite>Gasheron wrote:</cite><blockquote>This statement is why I believe that Monks are currently broken. We are a class that is supposed to tank through avoidance, not mitigation. Yet, agi gives so little to agi that the best way for us to tank is to ignore it entirely and go for sta/str. It makes no sense, and needs to be remedied.</blockquote><p>We're broken?</p><p>Ack!  I'd better quit fighting stuff and winning, then. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Of course, I'm just a little solo/duo monk...I don't raid.  So, perhaps we're broken when it comes to raiding?  As far as group content goes, I put monks near the top of the dogpile for tankability.  Unfortunately, there are some berserkers sitting on the very tip-top of that pile, but I'm working on getting my katanas through the cracks in their armor. <img src="/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote><p>I'm not saying we can't do things. I'm saying that Monks aren't Monks, but just plate tanks that can't wear plate armor.</p><p>Plate tanks can currently match our avoidance, while we can't get close to their mitigation, which is unfair and downright cruel.</p><p>Avoidance, which is the key ingredient to how Monks are SUPPOSED to tank, is keyed to the stat of AGI. However, AGI gives so little that to be a good tank as a Monk, we have to focus on STA, STR, and pure mitigation. We should be focusing on avoidance, but it just doesn't work well enough to be reliable. This needs to be remedied. </p>

[Couching]

<cite>selch wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>You have to take more things in situation, rights or wrongs:</p><p>Game as it is designed, a monk requiring 1 tier above equipment to equivalently tank same content. (eg. Fabled armor requirement for tanking group content as easy as another plate tank tanking same group content with a legendary set) If gear tiers are same with another plate tank then a monk requiring 2 healers to tank with same ease of the same tier gear plate tank.</p><p>I'm pretty sure there will be people "oh, I tanked that this etc." , you may agree or disagree, this is how game designed. Nothing is more lame than saying you tank heroic content with your fabled gear. </p><p>Warriors probably have lame excuse "omg we dont have dps", we all know that's a lie, well, as monks , be grateful to be compared to duel wield to 1-handed dps which is close to us.</p><p>Let me say: Avoidance is not they key where it should be. Granted, it is nice to have but what does it have a purpose when a bulk plate person can avoid at same rate with a light armor against named heroics and above? NOTHING.</p><p>May your avoidance value be good against solo mobs and lowly heroics, that's what we are assigned for in EQ2.</p></blockquote>We don't need fabled gears to tank in heroic encounters. The mitigation difference between EoF fabled and legendary class armor suit is about 230-240. It's about 2% mitigation. The hp difference is about 500. You are not going to be failed as a good tank just because you have 2% mitigation and 500 hp less. The only reason that some monk can be a good tank and some monk can't is based on how they geared them up. You can get extra 400 mitigations from Claymore quest rewards and almost 200 mitigation from rings. Moreover, you can get 200 extra mitigation from adornments on your wrist and forearms. Every time, I saw a monk with an avoidance adornment rather than mitigation, I scratched my head and told myself that there is one more monk who can't tank [Removed for Content]. If you can't tank good, it's your choice. You deserve it. There is no excuse that a legendary geared monk can't tank heroic encounters. If you want to be a tank, focus on mitigation rather than avoidance, focus on sta/hp rather than useless agi.

[Junaru]

Pipes@Najena wrote: <blockquote><cite>Gasheron wrote:</cite><blockquote>This statement is why I believe that Monks are currently broken. We are a class that is supposed to tank through avoidance, not mitigation. Yet, agi gives so little to agi that the best way for us to tank is to ignore it entirely and go for sta/str. It makes no sense, and needs to be remedied.</blockquote><p>We're broken?</p><p>Ack!  I'd better quit fighting stuff and winning, then. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Of course, I'm just a little solo/duo monk...I don't raid.  So, perhaps we're broken when it comes to raiding?  As far as group content goes, I put monks near the top of the dogpile for tankability.  Unfortunately, there are some berserkers sitting on the very tip-top of that pile, but I'm working on getting my katanas through the cracks in their armor. <img src="/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote>You are missing the point. No one is saying we can't tank group mobs. Hell no one is even saying we can't tank epic mobs. The problem is why have a Monk with 70% avoidance and 4k mitigation when you can have a plate tank with 65% avoidance and 6k mitigation. The simple true is on raids, everything a Monk can do, someone else can do better.

[Couching]

It's heart broken when you saw a plate tank with 70% avoidance. This game is [I cannot control my vocabulary] broken. Plate tank is totally owned in dps, mitigations and taunt in RAID.

[Gasheron]

<cite>couching wrote:</cite><blockquote>You can get extra 400 mitigations from Claymore quest rewards and almost 200 mitigation from rings. Moreover, you can get 200 extra mitigation from adornments on your wrist and forearms. Every time, I saw a monk with an avoidance adornment rather than mitigation, I scratched my head and told myself that there is one more monk who can't tank [I cannot control my vocabulary]. If you can't tank good, it's your choice. You deserve it. There is no excuse that a legendary geared monk can't tank heroic encounters. If you want to be a tank, focus on mitigation rather than avoidance, focus on sta/hp rather than useless agi. </blockquote> Quoted for emphasis in reference to my last post on this thread.

[Couching]

<cite>Gasheron wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>couching wrote:</cite><blockquote>You can get extra 400 mitigations from Claymore quest rewards and almost 200 mitigation from rings. Moreover, you can get 200 extra mitigation from adornments on your wrist and forearms. Every time, I saw a monk with an avoidance adornment rather than mitigation, I scratched my head and told myself that there is one more monk who can't tank [I cannot control my vocabulary]. If you can't tank good, it's your choice. You deserve it. There is no excuse that a legendary geared monk can't tank heroic encounters. If you want to be a tank, focus on mitigation rather than avoidance, focus on sta/hp rather than useless agi. </blockquote> Quoted for emphasis in reference to my last post on this thread.</blockquote>Agi or avoidance will never be better than mitigation. Why? The mitigation is uncontested and avoidance is contested. That's why mitigation is better than avoidance for tank. Avoidance is too unreliable. The only way to make avoidance more appealing comparing to mitigation is such that if you have certain avoidance, you won't get critical hit or even not taking aoes. You can have a roll check on AoE if you have high enough avoidance.

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<p>Mitigation is level contested... there's just no skill it compares. It's still worse against a higher level Epic than against a lower level Epic.</p><p>Avoidance isn't only AGI based... you have Deflection and Parry as well, which tend to be the bread and butter of our avoidance.</p><p>It's true, avoidance isn't the be-all, but you will want to have at least a certain level. Hell.. you only have to look as far as Offensive and Defensive stances to see the effects of avoidance being helpful.</p><p>In the end, the ~2k mitigation difference isn't what makes or breaks the Brawler class from being the MT on raids. If you set yourself up with defensive gear properly, then healers won't have any real harder time keeping you alive for the most part. And if you focus properly on hitpoints, you can equal or exceed most tanks in max hitpoints anyways (brawlers have a higher base hitpoint based on class).</p><p>It's the fact that we can't hold aggro as good as the other tanks out there against multi target situations. Hell, we have problem holding aggro in Heroic content against multiple encounter stuff.</p><p>Ever wonder why plate tanks sitting in the MT spot are somehow able to do just as much, or sometimes more DPS than when they DPS? And yet when I've ever switched out my gear to tank I end up noticing a couple hundred point DROP in DPS... and I almost don't want to tank without a Warden these days because I can't hold aggro in Defensive stance without their Skill increase.</p><p>Did you know that Rogue can spec their KoS AA's to have just as many taunts as a Brawler (I'm not even kidding), a higher +% HP effectively getting nearly the same amount of hitpoints, and instead of a "proc when attacking" taunt stance, they get a "proc when hit" taunt similar to Guardians.</p><p>Brigand EoF AA's (not sure on Swashes, don't have one) gives them a nice boost to their magic defenses, faster AE, and a better form of Intercede that replenishes their power? Oh... instead of Rescue, Brigands have a nice ability that basically combines a 3 hit intercept + detaunt your friend ability that works even better depending on the situation.</p><p>Toss in a Fabled Round Shield that has it's avoidance boosted from AA's, and this is why you see some scouts tanking at least as good as Brawlers.</p><p> I wish we got the stuff Rogues got for their tanking AA's.</p><p> On the flipside, Warriors get a better form of Double attack (only 76%, but then add in the fact that it's useable with 1handed weapons.. which can have a DR of nearly twice as much as our unarmed), they can have their autoattack hit multi targets... haste (for Bruisers), and higher crits (which we used to have the same of until they nerfed it).</p><p>I wish we got the stuff Warriors got for their DPS AA's.</p><p> You know what that tells me? We really, really got shafted in the KoS AA's department, and it's affecting everything from tanking to DPS... to the point that every other class is starting to pull away from us.</p><p>They increased Warrior autoattack to be equal of all the tanks. They used AA's to shore up everyone elses weak points. And yet Brawlers just get the nerfs... and tossed some things as an afterthought after much complaining (uncontested deflection on our defensive stance after the whole hooplah when Shields became uncontested).</p><p>Ever get the feeling that there's a Dev missing from the team?</p>

[Couching]

What you said of mitigation is adjustable rather than contestable. Mitigation gets worse against epic mobs but it works on every hit. So it is uncontested. For avoidance, no matter you are fighting epic or solo mob, there is a roll check either hit or miss. So it is contested. That's why people said mitigation and hp are not contested because it is always there.

[mr23sgte]

<cite>Gasheron wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>couching wrote:</cite><blockquote>You can get extra 400 mitigations from Claymore quest rewards and almost 200 mitigation from rings. Moreover, you can get 200 extra mitigation from adornments on your wrist and forearms. Every time, I saw a monk with an avoidance adornment rather than mitigation, I scratched my head and told myself that there is one more monk who can't tank [I cannot control my vocabulary]. If you can't tank good, it's your choice. You deserve it. There is no excuse that a legendary geared monk can't tank heroic encounters. If you want to be a tank, focus on mitigation rather than avoidance, focus on sta/hp rather than useless agi. </blockquote> Quoted for emphasis in reference to my last post on this thread.</blockquote> <b><i><u>What the other poster said for emphasis</u></i></b>:  "You are missing the point. No one is saying we can't tank group mobs. Hell no one is even saying we can't tank epic mobs. The problem is why have a Monk with 70% avoidance and 4k mitigation when you can have a plate tank with 65% avoidance and 6k mitigation. The simple true is on raids, everything a Monk can do, someone else can do better."

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<p>Because of diminishing returns that 2k isn't all that big a jump between brawlers and plate tanks. It's something like 5-10% difference at most... which isn't make or break on most raids.</p><p>Honestly.. if you actually put all the tank buffs and the two to three healers dedicated to keeping you alive like the Plate tank does, and don't just compare it to when you accidentally get aggro in a DPS group in offensive stance, then you could see a Monk or Bruiser capable of taking the hits.</p><p>Hell, they have Rogues tanking epics... they aren't much better off than we are.</p><p>Like I've been saying, the real reason we aren't MT in raids is because when we have to hold aggro, we just can't be trusted. We have enough aggro issues in Heroic settings against any real DPS class. In raids, with DPS classes getting a full group boosting their damage dealing, it's even worse.</p>

[Couching]

Kaisoku@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote><p>Because of diminishing returns that 2k isn't all that big a jump between brawlers and plate tanks. It's something like 5-10% difference at most... which isn't make or break on most raids.</p><p>Honestly.. if you actually put all the tank buffs and the two to three healers dedicated to keeping you alive like the Plate tank does, and don't just compare it to when you accidentally get aggro in a DPS group in offensive stance, then you could see a Monk or Bruiser capable of taking the hits.</p><p>Hell, they have Rogues tanking epics... they aren't much better off than we are.</p><p>Like I've been saying, the real reason we aren't MT in raids is because when we have to hold aggro, we just can't be trusted. We have enough aggro issues in Heroic settings against any real DPS class. In raids, with DPS classes getting a full group boosting their damage dealing, it's even worse.</p></blockquote>What you said is same as others. We can tank mobs in raid but other classes do better. The problem raises that why let a monk tank rather than plate tank since they can do better? For holding aggro, we lack ability to hold multiple targets encounters. Moreover, we have problem to build aggro fast enough on single target in raid. Our hate is mainly from our damage, hate proc and our taunts. We need passive taunt such as getting hate on target when we are damaged.

[Junaru]

Kaisoku@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote><p>Like I've been saying, the real reason we aren't MT in raids is because when we have to hold aggro, we just can't be trusted. We have enough aggro issues in Heroic settings against any real DPS class. In raids, with DPS classes getting a full group boosting their damage dealing, it's even worse.</p></blockquote>That there is the second half of the coin. Last night I tanked OOB with a 4 man group (Brigand, Fury, Warlock and myself), while I did fine with solo and ok with group mobs when we got adds (fairy room with the big eye) I lacked any ability to hold aggro enough. I cycled through the mobs the best I could but it made for a dead Warlock even with him holding back. Sure I could have told the Warlock no AoE or group nukes, but why should he have to when other tanks can hold aggro just fine. Surely proccing hate when we get hit is NOT going to help us hold aggro mainly cause we are built NOT to get hit. What SOE needs to do is give us a passive taunt ability like plate tanks and a out of encounter taunt. Making Dragon Stance group really isn't going to work either since out of encounter mobs wouldn't be effected like plate tanks. What needed is... Dragon stance need to be group and lowered to 25% proc Dragon stance need to have a 25% chance to proc on parry, block, dodge and riposte Brawlers need a out of encounter AoE taunt. These changes should give us about the same ability as plate tanks passive taunting and handle out of encounter mobs. Now NONE of these changes effect ANY other class. This only gives the Brawlers the ability to hold aggro better. Something no other class should be worried about since I have yet to see a plate class unable to hold aggro. Maybe SK but nothing like Brawlers.

[selch]

<cite>couching wrote:</cite><blockquote> <blockquote>If you can't tank good, it's your choice. You deserve it. There is no excuse that a legendary geared monk can't tank heroic encounters. If you want to be a tank, focus on mitigation rather than avoidance, focus on sta/hp rather than useless agi. </blockquote></blockquote><p> Cut the trash.  Read it first, if you can't still figure out what I mean, re-read it, but I'll point out again for you slowly for your ease... </p><p>1. It was a comphrension between warriors and monks. I did not say monks can not tank heroics, I said easeness and balance. Oh do we have DPS? I sure know what is meaning of DPS + Tanking at same time while playing with my berzerker.  </p><p>2. Mitigation means everything still. 10% mitigation differs much greater in terms of damage. Now to your point. Do you think you have really curved mitigation only when you received hit? Let's see: Mob has X damage, Y more damage added to mob's every attack, depending how low your "numeric" mitigation is and that Y number is calculated in the second combat has started and does not change during combat... That is called Initial Damage. THEN curve gets in and other calculations are done and finally you see FINAL number above your head. This is done right after GU#24, due to constant cries of curve by plate tanks that brawlers can tank in equal conditions with them. So what happens in a named that nullifies your avoidance to minimum  same level as a plate tank and you got hit more, more than your 5%, 10% than a plate tank above you because of the initial damage modifier. I'm sure someone with better english and know about the "initial damage modifier" can explain better to you. Try out: Get a mob aggro with your temp mit buffs and get same mob aggro without your temp mit buffs. You can directly cancel your temp mit buff after mob got aggro to you without getting any damage and easily see "Initial Damage Modifier" difference and how more damage you got on auto-attacks of mob. So plate tanks having it much more easier because A.) Initial Damage Modifier is smaller than we receive B.) Their curve makes extra 15-20% mit difference already. Twice easeness. And considering named heroics makes avoidance almost EQUAL on a plate or a brawler, what you have in your hand? Only mitigation to trust. </p><p>3. STR and STA my highest stats, thank you for your concern about my tanking. I did tanking a lot on various classes while most with monk and I know which one is easier, which one is pain in the back and my equipment is currently best that my playstyle can handle. You are not talking to someone who just stepped onto monk class, so you better not give "oh take that, add these" type of hsit. </p><p>4. As I said as in DPS, we don't really make a difference with a zerker, even much lower in defensive mode. </p>

[Couching]

<cite>selch wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>couching wrote:</cite><blockquote> <blockquote>If you can't tank good, it's your choice. You deserve it. There is no excuse that a legendary geared monk can't tank heroic encounters. If you want to be a tank, focus on mitigation rather than avoidance, focus on sta/hp rather than useless agi. </blockquote></blockquote><p> Cut the trash.  Read it first, if you can't still figure out what I mean, re-read it, but I'll point out again for you slowly for your ease... </p><p>1. It was a comphrension between warriors and monks. I did not say monks can not tank heroics, I said easeness and balance. Oh do we have DPS? I sure know what is meaning of DPS + Tanking at same time while playing with my berzerker.  </p><p>2. Mitigation means everything still. 10% mitigation differs much greater in terms of damage. Now to your point. Do you think you have really curved mitigation only when you received hit? Let's see: Mob has X damage, Y more damage added to mob's every attack, depending how low your "numeric" mitigation is and that Y number is calculated in the second combat has started and does not change during combat... That is called Initial Damage. THEN curve gets in and other calculations are done and finally you see FINAL number above your head. This is done right after GU#24, due to constant cries of curve by plate tanks that brawlers can tank in equal conditions with them. So what happens in a named that nullifies your avoidance to minimum  same level as a plate tank and you got hit more, more than your 5%, 10% than a plate tank above you because of the initial damage modifier. I'm sure someone with better english and know about the "initial damage modifier" can explain better to you. Try out: Get a mob aggro with your temp mit buffs and get same mob aggro without your temp mit buffs. You can directly cancel your temp mit buff after mob got aggro to you without getting any damage and easily see "Initial Damage Modifier" difference and how more damage you got on auto-attacks of mob. So plate tanks having it much more easier because A.) Initial Damage Modifier is smaller than we receive B.) Their curve makes extra 15-20% mit difference already. Twice easeness. And considering named heroics makes avoidance almost EQUAL on a plate or a brawler, what you have in your hand? Only mitigation to trust. </p><p>3. STR and STA my highest stats, thank you for your concern about my tanking. I did tanking a lot on various classes while most with monk and I know which one is easier, which one is pain in the back and my equipment is currently best that my playstyle can handle. You are not talking to someone who just stepped onto monk class, so you better not give "oh take that, add these" type of hsit. </p><p>4. As I said as in DPS, we don't really make a difference with a zerker, even much lower in defensive mode. </p></blockquote>Dude, calm down. You should read again what I post. I was pointing to some monks who thought agi is more important than mitigation/hp/sta. So what's wrong with you since you said you have sta and str higher than agi. Moreover, the point of your long post is that mitigation is more important than others. It works better than others. What's the difference between yours and mine? If some monks thought agi is better, they deserved what they thought. What's wrong with it？Everyone should be responsible for their decision.

[selch]

<cite>couching wrote:</cite><blockquote>Dude, calm down. You should read again what I post. I was pointing to some monks who thought agi is more important than mitigation/hp/sta. So what's wrong with you since you said you have sta and str higher than agi. Moreover, the point of your long post is that mitigation is more important than others. It works better than others. What's the difference between yours and mine? If some monks thought agi is better, they deserved what they thought. What's wrong with it？Everyone should be responsible for their decision. </blockquote><p> I'm still on my word.  Tanking balance is made for legendary equipped plate tank to be able to tank all kind of heroic encounters. But this is not the case with brawlers. Brawlers need to do much more extra (thus I'm pointing out upper tier equipment) to be able to tank very same encounters with close easiness because of the (I wanted to use unappropiate word) mitigation / avoidance system. Especially named heroics and above mobs. For these mobs we avoid nearly same as a plate tank and got beaten much more than them. This stupid nerf made for again plate tanks and "naked tanking" but it surely hit us. Because as for development, we do not exist in game as tanks if we are not actors in Heroes.  </p>

[Gasheron]

<cite>couching wrote:</cite><blockquote>Dude, calm down. You should read again what I post. I was pointing to some monks who thought agi is more important than mitigation/hp/sta. So what's wrong with you since you said you have sta and str higher than agi. Moreover, the point of your long post is that mitigation is more important than others. It works better than others. What's the difference between yours and mine? If some monks thought agi is better, they deserved what they thought. What's wrong with it？Everyone should be responsible for their decision. </blockquote><p> And this is my point. For a monk to tank, we need to focus on mitigation/stamina/hp. However, Monks were originally designed to be Monks, not mini-plate tanks who can't wear plate armor. Monks are supposed to focus on AGI/parry/dodge/etc., the different factors of avoidance, but avoidance works so poorly that under the current game mechanics, we could never compare to a plate tank as they are designed to focus on the only working method of tanking atm, mitigation.</p><p>I'm not saying that Monks who want to tank now need to focus on AGI, I'm saying that the mechanics of the game, and the design idea of a Monk, is not what Monks currently are in the game. Monks are supposed to tank through avoidance, but the with way the game works, mitigation and stamina is a much more viable option, and this is not right. The devs need to make avoidance tanking comparable to mitigation tanking so that we can get rid of that gap that makes plate tanks more desirable as a tank than brawlers are.</p>

[Couching]

<cite>Gasheron wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>couching wrote:</cite><blockquote>Dude, calm down. You should read again what I post. I was pointing to some monks who thought agi is more important than mitigation/hp/sta. So what's wrong with you since you said you have sta and str higher than agi. Moreover, the point of your long post is that mitigation is more important than others. It works better than others. What's the difference between yours and mine? If some monks thought agi is better, they deserved what they thought. What's wrong with it？Everyone should be responsible for their decision. </blockquote><p> And this is my point. For a monk to tank, we need to focus on mitigation/stamina/hp. However, Monks were originally designed to be Monks, not mini-plate tanks who can't wear plate armor. Monks are supposed to focus on AGI/parry/dodge/etc., the different factors of avoidance, but avoidance works so poorly that under the current game mechanics, we could never compare to a plate tank as they are designed to focus on the only working method of tanking atm, mitigation.</p><p>I'm not saying that Monks who want to tank now need to focus on AGI, I'm saying that the mechanics of the game, and the design idea of a Monk, is not what Monks currently are in the game. Monks are supposed to tank through avoidance, but the with way the game works, mitigation and stamina is a much more viable option, and this is not right. The devs need to make avoidance tanking comparable to mitigation tanking so that we can get rid of that gap that makes plate tanks more desirable as a tank than brawlers are.</p></blockquote>We tank worse than plate tank is design as intended since brawler was on top dps of all fighters. However, with KoS and EoF released, we got shafted on our AA/itemization and we are no longer on top dps of fighters. That's why this game is broken. This game is broken isn't because we tank worse than plate tank. This game is broken is because we tank worse and also deal less damages than plate tanks in raid. The <b>76%</b> double attack and <b>22%</b> critical hit of war tree is bull [Removed for Content] when brawlers get only <b>18%</b> critical hit and <b>ZERO</b> double attack if we use weapons. I don't want to tank as good as plate tank or I will choice plate tank rather than monk. However, it is totally unbearable that we did worse on both tanking and dealing damages in raid.

[Shankonia]

<cite>couching wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gasheron wrote:</cite><blockquote>couching wrote: </blockquote>We tank worse than plate tank is design as intended since brawler was on top dps of all fighters. However, with KoS and EoF released, we got shafted on our AA/itemization and we are no longer on top dps of fighters. That's why this game is broken. This game is broken isn't because we tank worse than plate tank. This game is broken is because we tank worse and also deal less damages than plate tanks in raid. The <b>76%</b> double attack and <b>22%</b> critical hit of war tree is bull [Removed for Content] when brawlers get only <b>18%</b> critical hit and <b>ZERO</b> double attack if we use weapons. I don't want to tank as good as plate tank or I will choice plate tank rather than monk. However, it is totally unbearable that we did worse on both tanking and dealing damages in raid. </blockquote>Don't forget we also have less buffs to share and less debuffs.

[Selioth]

<cite>TheHidden wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>As ive stated several times. im still in the process of learning the monk class. i just thought id share with you all my latest trial runs iwth the monk. </p><p>Before i start i have to let you know that im still only in legendary gear. 2477 63.3% avoidance. 7.5k hitpoints. </p><p>mos trestsists at heat cold poison des around 2500 magic divine mental all over 5k and poison at 3.9k</p><p>2x dps adornments. attack is 1379 using two store bought ancient velium claws. DR 51.1 I have all stances at master1, group taunt at adept 1. single taunt at adept 3. and taunt proc at master 1. all stats are solo. </p><p>can post other gear setup later. anyways i recently started doing runs on tanking different instances with a regular group setup of Monk Dirge Defiler Conjurer</p><p>This is a great setup. So far ive tanked with ease  Nest: childplay. i think i tanked in total offensive stance. any monk should be able to tank this Den of devourer: again tanking with spider stance. this is easily on farming  status with that group setup. Vaults: again farming status for our little group. end mob really is no challange at all with our group. no power regen issues no heal issues. but i do use defenseive stance. our latest try has been OOB. i have tanked this zone successfully both times we have been in there. with 1 or 2 deaths. the group even successfully tanked 3x lvl 72 heroic ^^^ mobs at one time. no issues at all on nameds with no one dropping below 75% power during any real fight.  that i can tank that instance makes me happy. but i have to admit it has more to do with the buffs and wards placed on me. as well as the amount of debuffs going into the mobs. our dirge is forced to have up percussion of stone. this helps tremendously. hes also got his power regen, dps buff, group agi/str buff. group crush/slash/pierce buff. went with that to offset the defensive stance reduction in those areas to help maintain the aggro from our proc. if we dont hit our mobs. aggro is gonna be a problem. Defiler has pretty much all his standard buffs on me. im not too familar with the class so cant tell you for sure. anyways. we easily did whole soon in 1.15 hours. but all members in the group know what they are doing and know how to work together for best possible effects. we are going to run through the following zones. Valdoons. - should not be an issue. HoF - this one im very uncertain off. suspect a fail in this zone to be honest. sothis from what ive seen hits way too hard. and that adds are just a lil too much. and not enough dps to burn sothis in time. Unrest - yeah we gonna try it. but not as a 4 group. we will be trying this out with a Warden and an illusionist for added healage dps and mob control. from what i hear this is a suicide run having a monk tank this zone. but hey.. i love a challenge. the extra resists from both those classes shoudl help a ton. and the wardens buff to cursh/slash/pierce as well as the mitigation bonus is a must. the illusionist mezzing is also a must i think. i guess we will see how far we get <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. will make sure to let you all know how it goes! DEVS take note: this does not mean the brawler class is balanced with other fighter classes. we still need some lovin for raids. and a slight increase to our tanking abillity would not go astray. we can tank. but we need really specialised groups. thats hard to find! </p></blockquote>Ive tanked unrest and nizarra np, but yes brawlers get the short end of the tanking stick

[Nerill]

<cite>Gasheron wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="font-size: large">And this is my point. For a monk to tank, we need to focus on mitigation/stamina/hp. However, Monks were originally designed to be Monks, not mini-plate tanks who can't wear plate armor. Monks are supposed to focus on AGI/parry/dodge/etc., the different factors of avoidance, but avoidance works so poorly that under the current game mechanics, we could never compare to a plate tank as they are designed to focus on the only working method of tanking atm, mitigation.</span></blockquote> <cite>couching wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="font-size: large">The <b>76%</b> double attack and <b>22%</b> critical hit of war tree is bull [Removed for Content] when brawlers get only <b>18%</b> critical hit and <b>ZERO</b> double attack if we use weapons. I don't want to tank as good as plate tank or I will choice plate tank rather than monk. However, it is totally unbearable that we did worse on both tanking and dealing damages in raid.</span><span style="font-size: large"> </span> </blockquote> If the Devs only knew these <i>two</i> problems and <u>addressed</u> them ... that <b>alone</b> would help Monks make a <b>GIANT</b> leap forward !

[Shankonia]

Banzai@Unrest wrote: <blockquote><cite>Gasheron wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="font-size: large">And this is my point. For a monk to tank, we need to focus on mitigation/stamina/hp. However, Monks were originally designed to be Monks, not mini-plate tanks who can't wear plate armor. Monks are supposed to focus on AGI/parry/dodge/etc., the different factors of avoidance, but avoidance works so poorly that under the current game mechanics, we could never compare to a plate tank as they are designed to focus on the only working method of tanking atm, mitigation.</span></blockquote> <cite>couching wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="font-size: large">The <b>76%</b> double attack and <b>22%</b> critical hit of war tree is bull [Removed for Content] when brawlers get only <b>18%</b> critical hit and <b>ZERO</b> double attack if we use weapons. I don't want to tank as good as plate tank or I will choice plate tank rather than monk. However, it is totally unbearable that we did worse on both tanking and dealing damages in raid.</span><span style="font-size: large"> </span> </blockquote> If the Devs only knew these <i>two</i> problems and <u>addressed</u> them ... that <b>alone</b> would help Monks make a <b>GIANT</b> leap forward ! </blockquote>AMEN to that brother.

[mr23sgte]

Thats pretty much sums it up -

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<p>Remember when Mitigation was 360 degrees so they changed all Avoidance for Brawlers to 360 degrees?</p><p>Well.. since mitigation is basically uncontested... what would happen if all Brawler avoidance was uncontested. Woudl we really be that much better? It's not like we'd be able to hold aggro any better...</p>

[Gasheron]

Kaisoku@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote><p>Remember when Mitigation was 360 degrees so they changed all Avoidance for Brawlers to 360 degrees?</p><p>Well.. since mitigation is basically uncontested... what would happen if all Brawler avoidance was uncontested. Woudl we really be that much better? It's not like we'd be able to hold aggro any better...</p></blockquote><p> It's not just the problem of avoidance being contested, but that we don't have an advantage in avoidance like the plate tanks have over us in mitigation. I have seen plenty of medium-equipped plate tanks at 50% avoidance, and many well equipped ones with over 65%. Avoidance needs to be fixed, or our tanking ability will never compare to that of a plate tank, whether we can hold the agro or not. </p><p>Besides, on a single target encounter, I have yet to find a plate tank that can hold a mob's agro better than I can. We are just focused on single mob agro instead of group mob agro.</p><p>However, surviving the fight with that single mob isn't nearly as easy for me as it is for a plate tank, which is why we aren't considered tanks despite being fighters.</p>

[Junaru]

Kaisoku@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote><p>Remember when Mitigation was 360 degrees so they changed all Avoidance for Brawlers to 360 degrees?</p><p>Well.. since mitigation is basically uncontested... what would happen if all Brawler avoidance was uncontested. Woudl we really be that much better? It's not like we'd be able to hold aggro any better...</p></blockquote>Is that a joke? You give me 70%+ uncontested avoidance, our hps and I'll solo named mobs naked. You should start parsing yellow and orange mobs and just see how much 70% avoidance does for you right now. You would be shocked to see what SOE idea of 70% avoidance really means. If avoidance was uncontested you could put your avoidance buff on another Monk and the chances of him getting hit EVER would be very slim if ever.

[selch]

<cite>Junaru wrote:</cite><blockquote>Kaisoku@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote><p>Remember when Mitigation was 360 degrees so they changed all Avoidance for Brawlers to 360 degrees?</p><p>Well.. since mitigation is basically uncontested... what would happen if all Brawler avoidance was uncontested. Woudl we really be that much better? It's not like we'd be able to hold aggro any better...</p></blockquote>Is that a joke? You give me 70%+ uncontested avoidance, our hps and I'll solo named mobs naked. You should start parsing yellow and orange mobs and just see how much 70% avoidance does for you right now. You would be shocked to see what SOE idea of 70% avoidance really means. If avoidance was uncontested you could put your avoidance buff on another Monk and the chances of him getting hit EVER would be very slim if ever. </blockquote><p>While I agree with you 70% uncontest would be overkill, it has to be something done on to-hit values for brawlers.  a Brawler should have greater uncontested avoidance than a plate with a tower shield to balance mitigation gap and initial damage multiplier. </p><p>Basically to say it literally: Why in Norrath, a plate tank can contest with an avoidance tank on avoidance?</p>

[Albrig]

I have a 30 Monk and 33 Berserker that duos with a 33 Mystic friend. I started with the Berserker as obviously, you need a plate tank - it's common knowledge; plus the AA is the Buckler line all the way down. The only problem being is that it takes a while to take heroic or named and the Mystic is spending a lot of time warding than actually having a bit of fun and meleeing, which my friend likes to do. So I went to the Monk for the extra DPS, and accepted the leather aspect and avoidance might be a problem, but at least it would be a bit more fun. Mentored all the way up and it's much more fun than the Berserker. I wasn't really concerned about the AA, but went down the STR - which is now 4-8-8 and then I went INT - 4-4-8 (I got more quests done on the second run character). The Berserker is a fun class to play, but it's not fun to watch and my partner once forgetting that warding and healing is the mainstay, wasn't having the fun. The Monk is different. Really, really great to watch the moves play out and the damage is enough to see that we go through things faster and the Mystic friend of mine is having fun too. Less warding and healing and more meleeing etc. However, the aggro is a real problem. A single heroic. No problem at all (sometimes, it does run away from me). 2 heroics and that's when the problem poops. The dog dies (Mystic is STR - 4-8-8-2) and I lose 16% haste (I hit 50), the proc ward and the Mystic's dog's bleed proc - which you really notice when it's gone. Getting aggro back sometimes fails even with that emergency thing that grabs about 1k aggro - which sometimes rasies an eyebrow. This happened in a group too and it left me utterly dejected when it didn't do it. I kind of (not really) expected this with the Monk, however. So, recently, in my first ever group (I don't like grouping, but the Mystic wasn't available), I got invited to a RoV for a group. Very, very hard and eventually, the Templar got to tank the yellow con heroics in there. I also felt that I was not doing much DPS either - this was extremely noticebale when they conned white/yellow. It was like I was hitting a stone wall. I did like the fact that my knockback never once failed to knock over even a red con - that being Varsoon himself. I really liked that - especially twice in a row with that shoulder hit and the flying kick -  brought a smile to my face. Back to the Berserker; I haven't grouped with it yet, but I have pulled, 8 heroics in one go in , even con 1/2up (and I think there was a 3up in it) in Nektulos (the Dragoons, by accident I might add) and there is a difference so big, from the Monk, that there is no way I can describe it. More healing and warding and wang goes the health sometimes, sure, but the worst thing is the excitement from both of us from having survived that encounter. Just barely, but with no aggro issues and a dog happily yapping away as if it were just any other outing. The Monk needs fixing. In a group, it's not only me that feels crap - but dare I say it - the group members I'm with that say the following: "you keep saying you can't tank that" and "try your offensive stance" and when I do, I still lose aggro almost every single pull after about 2-3 seconds. And even if I do lose it, everyone else seems to be absolutely ok with it which is odd, like, ok, we have a Monk to order about. If anything, I look at 4,5,6 group members like the Fury, the Assassin and the Necromaner and realise that they are god almighty more stronger than I am at a lower level. With the Berserker, maybe it's the Barbarian look and the Orc armour (Level 30) that I got real cheap for less than 26g for the whole lot that makes people immediately think, "I'm cool with that". With the Monk, it's more along the lines of, "I like watching someone work hard for nothing whilst flying about with an impressive array of moves that make the Berserker look a bit dull" and "Shouldn't they be doing just a little more DPS than that Berserker we had going through this dungeon last?". Sort out the aggro, just enough so at least a 2 or 3 encounter is as easy as a single. I won't care if 4-6 is a bit tricky. The AA lines I don't care about, but I have to agree with the Berserker AA - the Monk's are designed to either back off from improving tanking, through DPS or, the DPS is designed in the AA lines to say that people in Gi's are silly goons with raw-[Removed for Content] syndrome. Also, the Gi's. For reasons that I don't understand, can you make it so that somewhere, in the 30 levels I've been through, I get a selection of at least 10 without resorting to the broker and not finding a single one or finding one in a quest other than the 10 and a 14 (the 14 I bought). And the colour gamut is a bit limited, which is why I am wearing the whole set of Emerald (Level 30) I got for less than 39g. I'm the Green Hornet. The idea of dyes has never been so appealing. And another thing. I duelled my Mystic with my Monk and I hardly dented it. I need practice I know to time that interrupt at 30 and the two knockbacks. I think I can do it to stop the ward. With the Berserker, have a guess what happens. Firstly, the dog is dead in 1 second or so. The Monk just couldn't quickly get it out the way. Sure it's 3 levels higher. Whatever. Then the Mystic is getting a beating that the Monk is supposed to be doing if a nuclear warhead was jammed up his Gi. Maybe I'm expecting too much 3 levels down. But it feels like a Mystic should be having a right old time before I go down. The Mystic gets the emergency ward off (bad enough when it's up) and the dog seems to proc that ward and my Monk is doing what Bruce Lee can only dream about if he were 7ft tall. Adept 1s, some Adept 3's, no Apprentice. My Monk gets splattered by a Mystic. Meleeing. Just that. that's it. Once a 300 ward goes up, I'm dead in less than 10 seconds - with my self heal (290hp) and a potion (300hp). Also, my Mystic tanks better than me. STATUS OF THE MONK IN MY OPINION. IT'S A B I T CH.

[Albrig]

Just got to level 39. At level 38, I got the last AA in STR. Tiger Shifu. When this is up and you get used to using Darting Arrow with that heat proc just after the first pull, there is no way anything could possibly pull that monster off and then you then hit a big 600 taunt. No way. I'm am happy with the Monk right now that my Berserker is left at 33 and I do not think that I am going to go back. Plate armour still looks great. Might be tempted perhaps. Still no Gi. Do something about that SoE. However, all I ask is that 15 minutes be reduced to 5 minutes (obviously, with the 30sec cool-down [Removed for Content] penalty that goes with it). That's all I ask. Oh wait. No, that's not all. In an Epic battle, can it be reduced to 1 minute (with no penalty). The Monk. Monk Veterans are keeping the truth quiet <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[sensie]

<p>We, that being monks will never be a great tank until avoidance is fixed.  Why???????????? I am glad I asked lol.</p><p>If I am not mistaken the way the game mechanics work is, Mob A hits you for 4000, there are 3 rolls of random numbers generated and applied to our avoidance or to anyone's avoidance.  Base first parry then deflection.</p><p>So using my gear which is a mix of fabled and legendary I can hit 65.1% avoidance, oh snap that number is misleading CAUSE the roll or numbers generated are applied to my base first 41% then parry 8.3% and then delfection of 34.5 percent.  So in theory I could avoidnace every hit, but the law of probality states I will get hit way more then I will avoidance adn this is why avoidance DOES NOT work. </p><p>Sensie Hwarang 70 Monk Guk - Timeless</p>

[Foretold]

<cite>Shankonia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Banzai@Unrest wrote: <blockquote><cite>Gasheron wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="font-size: large">And this is my point. For a monk to tank, we need to focus on mitigation/stamina/hp. However, Monks were originally designed to be Monks, not mini-plate tanks who can't wear plate armor. Monks are supposed to focus on AGI/parry/dodge/etc., the different factors of avoidance, but avoidance works so poorly that under the current game mechanics, we could never compare to a plate tank as they are designed to focus on the only working method of tanking atm, mitigation.</span></blockquote> <cite>couching wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="font-size: large">The <b>76%</b> double attack and <b>22%</b> critical hit of war tree is bull [Removed for Content] when brawlers get only <b>18%</b> critical hit and <b>ZERO</b> double attack if we use weapons. I don't want to tank as good as plate tank or I will choice plate tank rather than monk. However, it is totally unbearable that we did worse on both tanking and dealing damages in raid.</span><span style="font-size: large"> </span> </blockquote> If the Devs only knew these <i>two</i> problems and <u>addressed</u> them ... that <b>alone</b> would help Monks make a <b>GIANT</b> leap forward ! </blockquote>AMEN to that brother. </blockquote>It would be nice to know the developers knew about this....  Addressing it would be almost too close to nirvana for my little monk brain to endure.  Maybe just let us know you know????

[Junaru]

Banzai@Unrest wrote: <blockquote><cite>Gasheron wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="font-size: large">And this is my point. For a monk to tank, we need to focus on mitigation/stamina/hp. However, Monks were originally designed to be Monks, not mini-plate tanks who can't wear plate armor. Monks are supposed to focus on AGI/parry/dodge/etc., the different factors of avoidance, but avoidance works so poorly that under the current game mechanics, we could never compare to a plate tank as they are designed to focus on the only working method of tanking atm, mitigation.</span></blockquote> <cite>couching wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="font-size: large">The <b>76%</b> double attack and <b>22%</b> critical hit of war tree is bull [Removed for Content] when brawlers get only <b>18%</b> critical hit and <b>ZERO</b> double attack if we use weapons. I don't want to tank as good as plate tank or I will choice plate tank rather than monk. However, it is totally unbearable that we did worse on both tanking and dealing damages in raid.</span><span style="font-size: large"> </span> </blockquote> If the Devs only knew these <i>two</i> problems and <u>addressed</u> them ... that <b>alone</b> would help Monks make a <b>GIANT</b> leap forward ! </blockquote>On top of that Guardians get a AA that gives me another 10% double attack. Plus ever fighter class but Monk and SK have 4 end abilities in their tree. The short comings of the Monk class is LONG people. I can only hope that SOE does A LOT of changes to the Brawler/Monk trees SOON. I really don't want to wait for RoK before something is done.

[Jobeson]

A lot of monk tanking stems from the problems with avoidance on tanking raid mobs.  While we do get bursts of avoidance even when tanking [Removed for Content] named like Gardner the spike damage is still a killer especially when we are unable to cast heal, tsunami, dodge during a stun/stifle.  Our EOF AA greatly improves our tanking ability with the instant 100% avodidance for next mele.  This spell is great for all tanking monks but our problem still stems from having low mitigation. One way to easily fix this would be to give fabled raid items mit.  Why does every earing in EOF have + deflection, parry, defense, great hp, resists, but never mit? When tanking I wear 400 mit from a legendary earing and ring and the two wrist adornments.  I have options to get really nice fabled rings that offer more hp and even more avoidance 75% is enough.   Why cant these earings have 200-250 mitigation instead of 10 deflection?  Only legendary items have mit on them.  Are monks simply not supposed to ever tank things that drop fabled loot? <img src="http://eq2.xanadu-community.com/images/loot/1468.jpg" border="0"> Why couldn't this have 200 mit instead of 10 deflection?  It is obviously attempting to be a great monk earing but the deflection is not needed, mit is.  If the thought of giving all classes mitigation on jewelry is bad then make it a brawler only item. The STR line in the next GU will give us 321 mit.  If they would fix the rest of the tree and or make it 400+ mit then add in mit items monks would stand a chance in tanking raid mobs.  We can not get more mit from our leather (unless they give us 30% from worn) but we could get a ton on our other slots which I think is what we really need to have.  Raid monks should be able to get armor that can bump them up to 5k mitigation with only a priest and a conj because our avoidance does not make up for the lack of 2k or more mitigation.  It would be great to see STR and INT as a monk tank tree.  A good amount of  added CA damage (meaning at least 12% if not 15%) 400 mit, parry, crit chance, low hp mit bonus.  STR has so much potential to being the monk raid tank fix but they are making it not worth while with only 6% CA damage, crushing only mitigation debuff (it should be for whatever weapon the monk has equipped in primary or a different debuff all together maybe a simple dps/str debuff for the target to help single target monk tanking even more) and the only reward for wasting points in this crap is to get 321 mit and a useless end ability. 

[Almeric_CoS]

<p>Isn't the 76% double-attack of the WAR tree only applied when a shield is being used?</p><p>Remember, our aviodance is our shield, and we get it while keeping both hands free.  76% double attack with a one-hander won't quite match up to the DPS of a same-quality two-hander.</p><p>As for the 321 mitigation, I wouldn't complain to get more, but 321 should be somewhere around 5% extra MIT for me in mostly Legendary gear, bringing me up to a self-buffed 49-51%.  Toss a 50%+ MIT monk into a group with a few priests and I don't see why tanking epics should be out of the question.  Even right now I've yet to fail at tanking anything non-epic, and I'm still many steps from "uber."  Keeping agro (especially with a warlock in the group) is a bigger problem than taking hits.</p>

[Couching]

Almeric@Permafrost wrote: <blockquote><p>Isn't the 76% double-attack of the WAR tree only applied when a shield is being used?</p><p>Remember, our aviodance is our shield, and we get it while keeping both hands free.  76% double attack with a one-hander won't quite match up to the DPS of a same-quality two-hander.</p><p>As for the 321 avoidance, I wouldn't complain to get more, but 321 should be somewhere around 5% extra MIT for me in mostly Legendary gear, bringing me up to a self-buffed 49-51%.  Toss a 50%+ MIT monk into a group with a few priests and I don't see why tanking epics should be out of the question.  Even right now I've yet to fail at tanking anything non-epic, and I'm still many steps from "uber."  Keeping agro (especially with a warlock in the group) is a bigger problem than taking hits.</p></blockquote>85.1*1.76 is better or 105 is better? There are a lot of 1h over 85 damage rating and 105 damage rating is best 2h from avatar. Actually, 1h with 76% double attack is by far better than 2h. Also, it's why guard and zerker can out damage us in raid with group buffs (so we don't have haste advantage) if you have 85+ damage rating 1h. 85.1*1.76 >> 2*63. (assume you have high end DW weapons) For brawler tanking, mitigation isn't the only problem. The most problem is aggro control just as what you said.

[Almeric_CoS]

No more MIT achievement...I am very sad <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[abdcefg]

Almeric@Permafrost wrote: <blockquote>No more MIT achievement...I am very sad <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote><p> Well I was quite looking forward to the new str line too.  The miti debuff may be low but hey its an extra debuff,  the CA dmg increase i agree is pretty lame for monk but increasing it would mean our bruiser cousins get a huge boost to their already steroid injected CA's.  Loosing the riposte chance to miti was so so for me,  I'd prefer miti but 321 seemed a bit low for 8pts and they removed penalties from Chi.... awesome.  Now i can use it at start of fight to build some agro with crane flock.   Better ae agro with increased proc chance,  lame but useful extra stun ae,  extra hp and the elusive double attack buff (the stuff that was 'gone' when str was <i>fixed</i> that so many cried about<i>)</i>  and I was actually thinking why don't we tank again?</p><p>As mentioned by a few people I struggle more with agro than taking hits.  I've tanked heroic content no problems,  even the times when I've been required to tank in raids in the right grp its stable most the time.  </p><p>P.S  anyone managed 7 bits of relic2 yet and can spill the beans on the bonus haste/miti/defence?</p>

[selch]

<p>As long as monks can tank all heroic instances with only legendary set and only legendary weapons, with a single healer with no problems like equivalent plates, I'll be set that we can tank. Otherwise, I don't agree with rest "I did tank this, I did tank those, I did double healer etc." bubbles.</p>

[Cornbread Muffin]

<i><b>Almeric@Permafrost wrote:</b> </i><blockquote>the CA dmg increase i agree is pretty lame for monk but increasing it would mean our bruiser cousins get a huge boost to their already steroid injected CA's.</blockquote>Not really. Just running the numbers I found this to add about 45 DPS to a Bruiser since only about 50% of our damage comes from CAs. I understand that Monks have an even smaller percentage of damage coming from CAs, but while MOnks might only get 35 extra DPS I'd hardly call 45 DPS a huge boost. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />