Provisioner - spices and sweetners

[Barq Bandit]

<p><span style="font-size: small; font-family: comic sans ms,sand">Ever since we lost spices and sweetners, and found them replaced with roots (and in some cases, loam or mineral clusters...), I've had a really, really tough time enjoying crafting with my Provisioner, which I used to do with great enthusiasm for friends and customers alike.  I look at the recipes today and I get angry.  I liked them how they were.  I never understood the reasons for doing what they did, and they've never really explained why it was done.  (The only thing I can think of is that they might have reduced the raw types on shrubs so that people would have an easier time getting fruit, which always seemed in short supply.)</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Comic Sans MS">I've been /feedbacking requests for the reinclusion of spices and sweetners frequently, and I've come up with an idea to bring them back, make them fit, and be a benefit to everyone.  I'd like to hear other crafters' thoughts on this.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Comic Sans MS">New node.  Low-to-ground garden patch type of graphic.  Two raws.  Spices and sweetners.  All recipes that call for roots and other yucky ingrediants would have those ingrediants replaced with one of the two, as makes sense for each recipe.  They reworked the crafting system so that it would be easier to make changes and additions, so this should be no problem at all.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Comic Sans MS">To make up for harvesters having another rare-less node to clear, both the garden patches and shrubs would given a chance to drop rare roots (although half the chance than the actual root nodes, perhaps).  This would give harvesters a reason to clear them away as well without feeling as though they are completely wasting their time.  It would also give Provie harvesters a chance to score a rare other than a rare pelt, a welcome opportunity as I find I need meats far less than I need shrub raws, and don't spend nearly as much time harvesting dens.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Comic Sans MS">The devs already have spice and sweetner names for 6 out of the 7 current tiers, as well as icon art, all ready to go.  All they have to do is come up with 4 more:  2 for KoS, 2 for RoK for when it comes out months from now.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Comic Sans MS">Okay, Provies, other tradeskillers...  Thoughts?  Suggestions?  Any angles I've missed?  I desperately want spices back on our steaks and sweetners back in our fizzlepop, and would really appreciate your help in convincing the devs that this detail is worthy of a little time on their part to put right.  Thanks for reading.  : )</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Comic Sans MS">...Oh, and i want my cakes back, too.  Please!  Special recipe books!  Quests for the Ironforge Exchange!  Whatever!  Just gimme back my fayberry cake...   Sweetened with raw cinnamon, of course.  :9</span></p>

[Terron]

Some roots are nice to eat, e.g. potatoes, carrots, beetroots, but I know what you mean. A lot of my enjoyment from making provisions was lost when the ingredients became less realistic. However I do not favour adding another node type, especially one that only one type of crafter would use. A while ago I suggested something like this: Give carpenters recipes for enchanted herb gardens - boxes containing plants made from rare woods - one for each tier (maybe from T3 up). Once placed you would be able to water, fertilize and examine the herb gardens, using the dropped water and fertilizer, similar to the carnivorous plants. If you have watered and fertilized a garden when you examine it you will find a herb - level determined by the lowest of the water, fertilizer or box, perhaps 2 types per tier. Give provisioners two "advanced" recipe books per tier one for drinks using the herb, and the other for foods. These would be slightly better than the current foods, but that would be justified by their needing drops from mobs (water and fertilizer), which should also increase the vendor price. The artwork for some of the herbs that used to be gathered could be reused. One design of herb garden with differently tinted woods would work.

[Barq Bandit]

<p><span style="font-size: small; font-family: comic sans ms,sand">While I like the idea of a little garden in homes (we desperately need more plants and flowers), the rest of the concept feels a little too complicated to me.  If spices and sweeteners are to make any sort of return, I'd like them to be put back into regular recipes, and in as simple a way as possible.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small; font-family: comic sans ms,sand">Why do you not favor another node type specificly?  I thought perhaps giving them the chance to drop a rare root would make up for them being in the way, taking up space.  Can you think of any futher means the devs could use to put these new nodes in and make them welcome by Provies, other crafters, and gatherers alike?</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Comic Sans MS">In my other /feedbacks, I merely asked for them to put spices and sweetners back on the shrubs, taking the raws back up to six types for those nodes, but that's a problem apparently, as they removed them in the first place.  If there wasn't any real reason for it, and they were just trying to get the revamp over and done with, then I'd really like them to go back and re-examine all the recipes as they would be with sweetners and spices back in, and then simply balance the recipes so that one ingredient isn't used overwhelmingly more often than any other ( *cough* xegonberries *cough* ).  As long as the six raw types drop in even amounts from the shrubs, and are <b>used</b> evenly within each recipes and across each tier's longest-duration recipes (which are mostly likely to be used by a fully trained Provie), there's no problem.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Comic Sans MS">EDIT:  Someone's just reminded me that grains are also missing!  You need grains to make beer, breads, and other things of that nature!  : )   But I could really do with just spices and sweeteners back.  Not asking for the world here.  :P</span></p>

[Krystara]

<p>While I was not really a tradeskiller before the revamp (hadn't played very long yet, hadn't gotten into it heavily), I do have to say that I find some of my recipes truly strange.  Loam? In my drinks?  Really?  Yuck!</p><p>It would be nice to have some spice reality available to us.  And I wouldn't necessarily mind a second node to harvest, although my bank is already stuffed full.  I can buy a bigger box if needed.  But I think a lot of other tradeskillers would be annoyed if yet another node popped instead of ore.  I guess having the bushes have a chance to drop some kind of rare root would help soften the blow, but I know I've seen my partner in crime almost start crying as he looked over all the bushes he was going to have to harvest to get his beloved ores to emerge from the ground.</p><p>I like the idea though, just not sure it would win provisioners any friends.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Barq Bandit]

<p><span style="font-size: small; font-family: comic sans ms,sand">Well, if the two returning Provie raws can fit comfortably back onto the shrubs, they'll be no need at all for a second harvest node type.  This would be ideal, I think.</span></p>

[KerowynnKaotic]

<p>I actually would like Terron's suggestion.  </p><ul><li>#1 it at least gives more use to those bones/waters/fertilizers currently in game </li><li>#2 I really, really miss my UO gardening .. </li></ul><p>But, if we can't have that, just place them for sale on the Vender like Fuel.  It can be another thing Provisioners lose money on.   ..</p><p>I really don't want to add more drops to the Bushes or anyone else's node and adding another node for people to skip while cherry picking would just be aggravating!</p>

[Valdaglerion]

<p>Why not add these things as Uncommon - adding them to the glimmering stones, flowers and teeth. This would expand the uncommon and make the recipes for provisioners a little better. The existing nodes could be used and these uncommons would only drop on the shrubbery. </p><p> Just a thought...</p>

[TniEradani]

<p>thinking on the fly:</p><p>REMOVE loam from food - sounds good to me</p><p>ADD a true rare to food nodes - absolutely a great idea. maybe even have them drop an ore rare occasionally that the bush is growing out of. lol. that would help with the harvesting area cleanup</p><p>SOME ideas how we could do this without added node types</p><p>add 1 or more uncommons to </p><ul><li>root nodes: potatoes, carrots, etc and ginger root, ginseng, goldenseal, bull rushes</li><li>tree nodes: pepper wood (prickly ash), white pine, cherry birch, shrubby bittersweet</li><li>fish nodes: shark fin, filet of sole, reaching here, but i'm sure there's enough creativity around to come up with some truly good fish drops</li></ul><p>maybe use these extras like imbues</p><ul><li>pototates, carrots etc: add sta</li><li>ginger, ginseng etc: add wis and int</li><li>pepper wood, white pine bark etc: add str and agi</li></ul><p>this 2 step process would slow things down so -</p><p>change the amount of product produced per durability bar to something like 1, 2, 5, 10. this would give afk crafters a little bit of a disadvantage to those who slog it out in the kitchen for hours at a time - lol</p><p>BUT, why not an extra node type taking up some of the wood space. Is there anyone who doesn't just want to delete 4 or more stacks of wood after a harvesting session?</p><p>WOULD be truly wonderful if serious provisioners had more than 5 recipes per tier to make. (the 4 stat bonus food/drink + pure power regen drink)</p><ul><li>true alcoholic beverages: while i don't drink; it is, after all, the Stove & Keg</li><li>the ability to make your own dough. why not? sure leave it on the broker for when you don't feel like making some, but why not readd the ability to make your own?</li><li>add something tier appropriate like moshga's mush. a str only stat bonus food for carrying around those 32 slot boxes. i remember my full time provisioner used to carry around 2 with her. one for food mats and the other for fuels, liquid, etc.</li></ul><p>FLOWER BOX sounds just wonderful. make it available in T2 so provisioner (craftsman) can make their own starter one and not "have" to buy it from a carpenter. let's go dream big here and add a couple of different colors of flowers per tier or maybe one flower and one herb type. oooo to be able to put basil or cayanne in my eq2 food would be just great.</p><p>OK, i'll stop now before this gets toooo off the wall.</p>

[Crinaeae]

Tock@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote><p><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Comic Sans MS">...Oh, and i want my cakes back, too.  Please!  Special recipe books!  Quests for the Ironforge Exchange!  Whatever!  Just gimme back my fayberry cake...   Sweetened with raw cinnamon, of course.  :9</span></p></blockquote>    Yes, please give us back our desserts.  I may be dreaming, but how about wedding cakes and other such celebration food?  It's a role-playing game with known, though perhaps not common, in game weddings.  Please can we have food for these and other celebration events?  *looks cute* Please!!!

[KerowynnKaotic]

Eradani@Venekor wrote: <blockquote><p>thinking on the fly:</p><p>REMOVE loam from food - sounds good to me</p><p>*snipped* </p><p>change the amount of product produced per durability bar to something like 1, 2, 5, 10. this would give afk crafters a little bit of a disadvantage to those who slog it out in the kitchen for hours at a time - lol</p><p>BUT, why not an extra node type taking up some of the wood space. Is there anyone who doesn't just want to delete 4 or more stacks of wood after a harvesting session?</p></blockquote><p>#1 Remove Loam from Provisioners and Give it to Carpenters to make Cups, Glasses and Vases .. </p><p>#2 YES!  Please .. though for fair's sake (so we don't have to change fuel #) I would rather see Handcrafted Food/Drink = 1/2/3/4 and any Rare Food/Drink we get (*crosses fingers*) to be 2/4/8/10 or like DFC crafted: rare/rare/rare/10.  (dfc armor craft get back the blood iron if the crafter doesn't get to pristine). </p><p>#3 I don't mind adding something to the Wood Node.  Even my Woodworker has to delete wood to make space for the rest of her needs but it's bad enough when I get a "you have found a RARE piece of (censored) Imbued Item instead of a root" .. adding in more options for Roots, when practically every craft needs almost a "Titanic Boat load" of roots per tier is just asking for someone to go postal at the next fan faire .. </p>

[Dysarys]

As a Provisioner who made it all the way to 62 before the revamp, all I have to say is I want my Refreshing Mental Core Breeches back with its five hour duration time and its nice +??? power. I was actually making money as a Provisioner with those, now I just lose money. The revamp was the worst idea SOE ever came up with bar none.

[Galldora]

The loss of Mental Core Breach and Denmother's Trail Mix were huge!  Not to mention dried fruits, chocolate covered nuts and fruits and the lower tier trail mixes.  My Lvl70 provisioner rarely cooks anymore, except for my own toons and for presents and tips.  There's just not enough profit in it, and the recipes are no fun anymore. I would love to see some of the changes mentioned above.  I think imbued foods with extra stats would be great, and it would give us something to do with all of those imbuing rares.  Provisioners really need something to add a bit of zip to their food and drink!  And the home garden, that would be wonderful.

[Krystara]

<cite>Galldora wrote:</cite><blockquote>The loss of Mental Core Breach and Denmother's Trail Mix were huge!  Not to mention dried fruits, chocolate covered nuts and fruits and the lower tier trail mixes.  My Lvl70 provisioner rarely cooks anymore, except for my own toons and for presents and tips.  There's just not enough profit in it, and the recipes are no fun anymore. </blockquote>But there is Mental Core Breach and Denmother's Trail Mix - I was making them last night.  Or am I making a changed version?  Like I said, I really didn't get into crafting until after the change as I'd just started playing.

[Valsehna]

<cite>Crinaeae wrote:</cite><blockquote>Tock@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote><p><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Comic Sans MS">...Oh, and i want my cakes back, too.  Please!  Special recipe books!  Quests for the Ironforge Exchange!  Whatever!  Just gimme back my fayberry cake...   Sweetened with raw cinnamon, of course.  :9</span></p></blockquote><p>    Yes, please give us back our desserts.  I may be dreaming, but how about wedding cakes and other such celebration food?  It's a role-playing game with known, though perhaps not common, in game weddings.  Please can we have food for these and other celebration events?  *looks cute* Please!!!</p><p>I totally agree.  We did lose the things that made it more realistic, as if cooking or brewing up something delicious out of delectible ingredients.  Rock, dirt, stick, root...yum..not.</p><p>Mmmm....brownies, fudge, cookies, cakes, good stuff.</p><p>I'd be delighted to have the "roleplay" foods you spoke of.  Truly...not the goop with stats and regens..food one eats to be sociable with others.</p><p>"Valsehna takes a lingering bite of her delectable fudge brownie."</p><p>Foods that are for eating...like eating. Not tucking into your slot and consuming robotically.</p></blockquote>

[Galldora]

Lysari@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote><cite>Galldora wrote:</cite><blockquote>The loss of Mental Core Breach and Denmother's Trail Mix were huge!  Not to mention dried fruits, chocolate covered nuts and fruits and the lower tier trail mixes.  My Lvl70 provisioner rarely cooks anymore, except for my own toons and for presents and tips.  There's just not enough profit in it, and the recipes are no fun anymore. </blockquote>But there is Mental Core Breach and Denmother's Trail Mix - I was making them last night.  Or am I making a changed version?  Like I said, I really didn't get into crafting until after the change as I'd just started playing. </blockquote> Alas, the mental core breach and denmother's trail mix we can make today bear no resemblance to the products of old.  Both of these were level 60 products of 5 hours duration.  The trail mix boosted both wisdom and intelligence by 6.8 and the mental core breach gave a 300 power boost, IIRC. 

[Krystara]

Oh.  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Sounds like I wish I could make the old ones, even though I never did.

[Barq Bandit]

<p><span style="font-size: small; font-family: comic sans ms,sand">While some of these ideas sound really interesting, I've found that that simpler an idea is, the more likely the devs are to do something with it.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Comic Sans MS">I just don't want to cook with roots anymore.  That's all.  I want spices and sweetners back.  And the simplest way to go about doing that is to make them drop from shrubs, and balance out the recipes so that they require a little less of the veggies, coffee beans, tea leaves, and especially fruit than they do now (because slightly fewer will be available from shrubs due to the two returning shrub raws), and that they use appropriate numbers of the spices and sweeteners in lue of the roots, loam, and any other yucky ingrediants.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Comic Sans MS">Roots are icky!  Yes, I know carrots are technically roots, but we're not talking about those.  We harvest carrots in Antonica and the Commonlands, anyway.  I'm talking about tuber strands, belladonna root, ashen roots, etc.   These are not food.  They don't sound like food.  The icon doesn't look like food.  <b>They do not appeal as a cooking ingrediant</b>, and it was a serious mistake to use them as a Provisioner recipe component.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Comic Sans MS">This would be the easiest and simplest way to go about this.  It wouldn't require any new mechanisms that aren't already in place, and only requires editing pre-existing code.  It would really mean a lot to those of us that enjoyed cooking as it was.  It would be nice to have some of that <i>flavor</i> back in the profession again.</span></p>

[Besual]

I'm not a fan of harvesting more node types then shrubs just to get my resources for cooking. And I'm quite sure the other crafters would like to keep their nodes "clean" too. We could buy spices and sweeteners from the NPC merchant. On the other hand <b>all</b> recipes are simplified to ignore "minor" components. Using real rares for consumable... nah. But I could imagine using the pseudo rares (sparkling flower, glowing tooth...) as components for "advanced" recipes. The market is flooded with these pseudo rares and this would give them a new use beside of imbuing. I would even go so far to remove the pseudo rares from all nodes but shrubs.

[Barq Bandit]

<p><span style="font-size: small; font-family: comic sans ms,sand">I was just thinking about that idea, buying spices and stuff from npc fuel vendors.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small; font-family: comic sans ms,sand">If putting the missing raws back on shrubs is problematic, then roots and other yucky raws could be removed from the recipes, the number of other provie raws required in each recipe increased to compensate for roots being removed, and then a selection of new, cheap provie ingrediants could be put on the fuel vendors, in addition to the dough, milk, and water already there.  Some of these can be created by items that were removed, like sugar, flour, etc.  The others can be created from the spices, sweetener, and grain raws that used to be on shrubs.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small; font-family: comic sans ms,sand">This would free up valuable roots for all other crafters, wouldn't involve changing the harvesting nodes at all, and would return flavor to Provisioner recipes once again.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Comic Sans MS">The only problem with this is that people might complain about all these new Provie ingrediants cluttering up the fuel vendor window.  A feature I've long wished for would fix that:</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small; font-family: comic sans ms,sand">It'd be very nice if fuel vendors only show you what you use, not everyone else's fuels and components as well.  This could be accomplished via a checkbox on the Merchant window:  ''Filter by my profession''.  Crafters just starting out would see everything.  Crafters in their teens would see everything used by all professions in their choosen class.   Crafters in their 20th lvl or higher would only see those fuels and components needed for their specific crafting subclass.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Comic Sans MS">So a Provie with this checked would only see tinder and all the vendor-bought ingrediants.  Carpenters would only see sandpaper, filaments, and coal.  And so on.</span></p>

[MadTexan3]

<p>You've got 2 nodes purely for your needs (gardens and schools of fish) and only have 1 node (animal dens) shared with other professions and compared to the others this is a blessing. Further, even with the constant/guaranteed scourge of cherrypicking harvesters you are almost always guaranteed to find the nodes you need up since they cherrypickers aren't targetting 'your' nodes.</p><p>So, even though I can appreciate that you want to make provisioning recipes more 'interesting', from a purely practical standpoint wanting to put provisioner raws in root nodes is counter productive IMO.</p>

[Barq Bandit]

<div align="left"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Comic Sans MS"><p><span style="font-family: comic sans ms,sand">I didn't suggest putting Provie raws on root nodes...  Not sure how you got that impression...</span></p><p><span style="font-family: comic sans ms,sand">Ultimately, all I want is to stop using roots as food and drink ingredients, as well as icky ingrediants in a couple of other recipes, like azurite clusters in xegonberry sorbet.  These ingredients are unappealing, and have taken all the fun out of cooking in this game for me.  I'm all about playing pretend, but pretending that roots, gritty mud, and rocks make yummy treats is not the sort of pretending I have in mind when I log in.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: comic sans ms,sand">Provisioner recipes have gone from yummy to yuck, and I'd like to have yummy back.  That's all.</span></p></span></div>

[MadTexan3]

<p>My mistake, I misread your comment about adding rare roots to your suggested 'spices and sweeteners' node.</p><p>Regardless, I'm still not in favor of the suggestion since added dependency on a new node is still counter productive to provisioning IMO, even though I do agree that loam (which is basically dirt) and non-food roots in recipes is yucky.</p>

[Domino]

Tock@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Comic Sans MS"> It wouldn't require any new mechanisms that aren't already in place, and only requires editing pre-existing code.  </span></blockquote><p>If you had seen the pre-existing code and what would be required to edit this much of it, I don't think you'd say "only"!  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I already posted elsewhere that getting chocolate and cakes back into Norrath is definitely an intention of mine.  Going forward as new higher level recipes are added I will try to make them less mud-and-poisonous-ingredient dependant.  But the historical recipes -- well, they are already there and working, they're not actually broken in any way -- I'm afraid things that actually ARE broken or imbalanced are going to have to take much higher priority before I can even consider what basically amounts to cosmetic changes to provisioner recipes.  (Non-cosmetic issues, like the vast demand for xegonberries, will get looked at sooner however.) </p>

[redde]

I don't really see the problem with the provisioner system as it stands with regards to gathering raws.. Roots are something every class uses which is why the demand is so high. As I see it, provisioners already have 2 of their own prov only node that nobody else bothers to touch so they are all over the place! IMO this makes it pretty easy to gather everything for a provsioner except roots, and every class has a problem with them (tailors HATE them, I'm sure). I'm not sure if this was the point, or the argument was about realism? One thing I definitely DO agree about is the lack of any "rare" prov stuff. Rare food would be a brilliant addition, adding effects like +skills or maybe some in combat regen/power regen - there's a lot of options. EDIT: oh and someone mentioned a rare being a shark fin or something. I think shark feet would be rarer.

[Finora]

<cite>Crinaeae wrote:</cite><blockquote> Yes, please give us back our desserts.  I may be dreaming, but how about wedding cakes and other such celebration food?  It's a role-playing game with known, though perhaps not common, in game weddings.  Please can we have food for these and other celebration events?  *looks cute* Please!!!</blockquote><p>Oh that would be good. But I'd like to see celebration food done kind of like last year's frostfell food/drinks.</p><p>Something that can actually be placed on a table and has a graphic. Have it be clickable to give a serving that gives some benefit.</p><p>Make them have a set number of servings (say 8 for a pie, 10-15 for a small cake, 20 or more for a larger one etc). After those servings are gone, that would be all you could get from that particular item so it wouldn't be an everflowing font of food. Could make them use a lot of ingrediants as well.</p><p>Reaching there I know, but wow that could be so much fun. I spend DAYS in the Frostfell village getting ingredients and making food stuff for my house and houses of friends. It was pretty awesome having things I could make and place on my table. </p>

[TniEradani]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>If you had seen the pre-existing code and what would be required to edit this much of it, I don't think you'd say "only"!  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I already posted elsewhere that getting chocolate and cakes back into Norrath is definitely an intention of mine.  Going forward as new higher level recipes are added I will try to make them less mud-and-poisonous-ingredient dependant.  But the historical recipes -- well, they are already there and working, they're not actually broken in any way -- I'm afraid things that actually ARE broken or imbalanced are going to have to take much higher priority before I can even consider what basically amounts to cosmetic changes to provisioner recipes.  (Non-cosmetic issues, like the vast demand for xegonberries, will get looked at sooner however.)</p></blockquote><p>My bad for getting so silly with all my ideas. Being a typicial hubritic programmer I got a little(tm) carried away. And I can imagine what the pre-existing code looks like and I'm glad I don't have to deal with it.</p><p>And you are 100% right, getting all, or at least most, of the bugs in this software fixed before new bugs are introduced is definitely top priority and would be a very good thing.</p><p>btw: Welcome</p>

[Ulutia]

I would like to see one major improvement in the crafting system. When you mouse over the product currently, you see what is required to make it. Could it also show what the pristine product is? Rather then having to examine every product.

[Terron]

Tock@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote><p><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Comic Sans MS">It wouldn't require any new mechanisms that aren't already in place, and only requires editing pre-existing code.  </span></p></blockquote> Note that my suggesgtion also only reuses existing mechanisms.

[Barq Bandit]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote>Tock@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Comic Sans MS"> It wouldn't require any new mechanisms that aren't already in place, and only requires editing pre-existing code.  </span></blockquote><p>If you had seen the pre-existing code and what would be required to edit this much of it, I don't think you'd say "only"!  ;)</p><p>I already posted elsewhere that getting chocolate and cakes back into Norrath is definitely an intention of mine.  Going forward as new higher level recipes are added I will try to make them less mud-and-poisonous-ingredient dependant.  But the historical recipes -- well, they are already there and working, they're not actually broken in any way -- I'm afraid things that actually ARE broken or imbalanced are going to have to take much higher priority before I can even consider what basically amounts to cosmetic changes to provisioner recipes.  (Non-cosmetic issues, like the vast demand for xegonberries, will get looked at sooner however.) </p></blockquote><p><span style="font-size: small; font-family: comic sans ms,sand">It was my understanding that the tradeskill revamp was for the express purpose of making it much, much easier to edit recipes, create new ones, and otherwise tweak crafting in the future. So I figured it couldn't hurt to ask. I'm saddened that it looks like roots will be there to stay. I loathe them with a <i>passion</i>.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small; font-family: comic sans ms,sand">The recipes might not be broken in the sense that they still make the food and drink just fine, but in the sense that they are no longer fun for many Provisioners to use (which is the fundamental purpose of this game, right?), they are severely busted. Please try to remember that much of the enjoyment of the game is based on cosmetic details. The ingrediants are there to help Provisioners enjoy pretending to cook in Norrath, nothing more. That enjoyment has been shot dead for those that see provisioning as more than a mere means to an end:  profit or food for their characters.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small; font-family: comic sans ms,sand">I hope that you'll find the time to edit the recipes in the future, whether that be all in one go, or a little at a time in small spurts.  I really, really hate cooking with roots.  If tailors were suddenly asked to use fish and meat in the making all cloth armor, purely for game mechanics reasons, they'd think it odd and a bit daft.  I'm speaking from this point of view.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small; font-family: comic sans ms,sand">That said, I know you have a lot on your plate (ha! I made a funny!), and you have to make bugs and such a priority.  I'm not stamping my foot and demanding to be catered to.  : P  I'm sure you'll do a <i>fantastic</i> job, and thanks so much for replying and stating that you'll try and make future recipes veer away from the icky and poisonous. That in of itself is much appreciated.  :D  /thumbsup</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: comic sans ms,sand">...Not that I won't keep mentioning roots in the future mind you... (¬_¬)</span></p>

[Krystara]

<p>I don't mind roots, after all potatos and carrots are root and I adore carrot cake.  I really really hate using loams in the recipes! Dirt in my drinks?? Yuck!</p><p>I hope this is something that can be looked at down the road.  But I am super excited about new recipes.</p>

[ximo]

I used to play a provisioner, I tried again after the removal of subs but when I discovered roots and loams were being used it was just a little too obvious not enough time/resource was allocated to the ts change and so it seems some hasty changes were made. Also, not sure if it is still the case but what really highlighted it for me was when I was having to use meat from traps to make drinks????! (think it was mainly cocktail type drinks), blurgh, and it goes without saying not very plausible! What I would like (but will never happen owing to the time it would take) for provisioners is, in light of no "advanced" recipes as such, for an "experiment" function where you could combine your own raws and either succesfully (or unsuccesfully) create recipes.

[OakravenDesade]

Tock@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote><div align="left"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Comic Sans MS"><p><span style="font-family: comic sans ms,sand">but pretending that roots, gritty mud, and rocks make yummy treats is not the sort of pretending I have in mind when I log in.</span></p></span></div></blockquote><p>well lets see</p><p>Real world you eat fungus, Roots, tree bark, Plastic and rocks on probably a daily basis</p><p>their known as Mushrooms, Carots and potatoes, Cinnamon, Chewing gum (polyvinyl acetate plastic) and Salt</p><p>In the US and Norway theirs a dish known as Lutefisk. Its Codfish soaked in Lye </p><p>in some parts of the world certain clays are used as a dietary supliment(they are high in trace minerals, and when you think about it, its no less logical than putting a hunk of soft plastic in your mouth)</p><p>In Japan and asia their are dishes that are made with moss, Birds nests, <a href="http://www.birding.in/birds/Apodiformes/edible-nest_swiftlet.htm" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.birding.in/birds/Apodifo...st_swiftlet.htm</a> even Bees (hachi no ko or baby bees or bee larvae) </p>

[Calthine]

While I totally understand the ickiness of wood and roots and loam in your food, I'm chuckling beacuse before the change everyone complained there were far <i>far</i> too many provisioner harvests. I still think shrubs should have a rare.  A real rare.  *what* rare, I don't know.

[OakravenDesade]

<cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote>I still think shrubs should have a rare.  A real rare.  *what* rare, I don't know. </blockquote><p>Cocoa beans. . . </p><p>Ok Im going to run and hid from the Fm players now.</p>

[Jenarie]

What if shrubs had a random chance for any rare?  At least people would have an incentive to clear them so that when you go somewhere to harvest you aren't faced with clearing a whole area of shrubs before you can get anything you want. It makes sense... stuff gets caught in the bushes all the time. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[OakravenDesade]

nah they just need to make it cocoa beans, that way every shrub will be striped from the ground as soon as it spawns.

[Llogwey]

<p>I just read the first post... but how I would LOVE to see spices back with my provisionner ! All as been said. It was so... exhilarating to make something like a real reciepe in game !</p><p><blockquote>What if shrubs had a random chance for any rare?  At least people would have an incentive to clear them so that when you go somewhere to harvest you aren't faced with clearing a whole area of shrubs before you can get anything you want. It makes sense... stuff gets caught in the bushes all the time.</blockquote>That's a really good idea also</p>

[Calthine]

Random rare and cocoa beans are both a good idea!  But not at the same time.

[dartie]

<cite>Llogwey wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I just read the first post... but how I would LOVE to see spices back with my provisionner ! All as been said. It was so... exhilarating to make something like a real reciepe in game !</p><blockquote>What if shrubs had a random chance for any rare?  At least people would have an incentive to clear them so that when you go somewhere to harvest you aren't faced with clearing a whole area of shrubs before you can get anything you want. It makes sense... stuff gets caught in the bushes all the time.</blockquote>That's a really good idea also</blockquote><p> I think I saw a post along these same lines in the old forums.  The writer also pointed out that the roots of the bushes could reasonably push up a cluster of precious metal or a gem.  I think it's a nice idea.</p>

[Barq Bandit]

<cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote>While I totally understand the ickiness of wood and roots and loam in your food, I'm chuckling beacuse before the change everyone complained there were far <i>far</i> too many provisioner harvests. I still think shrubs should have a rare.  A real rare.  *what* rare, I don't know. </blockquote><p> <span style="font-size: small; font-family: comic sans ms,sand">I never understood why there were "too many" provisioner harvests.  I <i>loved</i> all the different ingrediants.  That was one of the neat things about provisioning for me.  It emulated real cooking, which uses lots of different ingrediants.  For me, that's what made it interesting and fun.  If there were problems with not enough of one ingredient and too much of another dropping in comparison to the amounts they were used in recipes, then simply removing some of the ingredients was a cheap and lazy way out.  The recipes themselves should have been re-examined so that certain ingredients were not overwhelmingly consumed in amounts greater than others, especially in the longest duration drinks and foods, which were more likley to be made.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Comic Sans MS">Seems to me that the kinds of players that complained about too much variety in the raws involved were just making stuff for coin and use, and not really enjoying the craft at all.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Comic Sans MS">As for the person that said potatoes and carrots are roots:  yes, I know.  (There's always one of you players that loves to offer up extremely localized examples of odd cuisine from around the world, as well.)  Well, we have carrots in this game.  In this game, they're in Antonica and the Commonlands as a veggie.  That's totally cool.  However, carrots are not the type of roots that tailors make clothes out of.  Those are the roots I'm speaking of.  Tuber strands and belladonna root (which someone told me is actually poisonous in real life) are not yummy.  They do not, by any stretch of the imagination, appeal to the tastebuds.  If they did, everyone would be nibbling on their shirts.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Comic Sans MS">At the end of the day, as long as roots and other yucky ingredients (that would be yucky as understood by the common player, not some bird-nest eating person in Japan) are removed from provie recipes (and the other ingredients increased slightly to compensate), and we get some vendor-bought ingredients to play with, I suppose I could be happy.</span></p>

[Valsehna]

<p>Very well said, Tock.</p><p>And yes, people around the world have cooked and/or eaten some things that don't sound wholly appealing to the general masses, including I suppose, dirt, etc.  But then again, people have been known to pick things from out of their noses and eat that too but...hey!  Digressing.</p><p>I think the idea of adding back into the game some provisioner goodies in the form of "rares" found in our little shrubs is a fantastic idea.  Cocoa bean is, I'd say, a must!</p><p>Just as rares from various types of nodes occur in their respective tiers, so then, would provisioner rares.</p><p>Here are a few ideas to toss around of some tasty and exotic possible "rares", then:</p><p>Cocoa Bean Truffle Saffron Thread Pomegranate Star Anise Fig Mango Tamarind Plum Mint Cinnamon Bergamot Date</p>

[Domino]

If it helps your imagination at all, I always thought of the loams in provisioner stuff as a tool used to make them, not something you actually eat. <a href="http://www.millstreambrewing.com/Fermentation.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Like stone-filtered beer</a> - skip to the "Filtration" paragraph at the end.  The diametacious earth and carbonating stone don't exactly sound appetizing to me either, but I'll bet the end product tastes just fine. As for poisonous substances -- well, you probably drank several cups of insecticide today yourself!  Caffeine is an insecticide produced by plants to kill pesky bugs, it's not something coffee decided to produce just to make humans perky.  It's a poison to many animals, probably including us if we ate it in sufficient quantities.  Perhaps belladonna root is a stimulant to Norrathians also?  According to Google it's used in herbal medicines, so it's clearly not fatal in small quantities anyway. As for tuber strands -- a potato IS a tuber (<a href="http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Tuber" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Reference</a>) so clearly they are quite likely to be edible. There are many plants that would be used both by tailors and provisioners so the use of roots in provisioning has never bothered me that much.  Flax, for example, is a very <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1061885.stm" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">healthy food</a> and flax seeds are often found in health food stores, while flax is also very commonly cultivated to make clothing.  <a href="http://www.leef.org.uk/articles/article.php?id=20" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Nettles</a>, while not a huge industrial crop these days, has been used to make cloth for hundreds of years and are also edible (as well as used as a natural dye).  I'm actually wearing a t-shirt today made from hemp cloth, though hemp is also edible.  Etc.  The Norrathian equivalents of these harvests are quite probably a bit different from the versions we see in the real world, anyway; I think you could make an argument either way, really.

[ximo]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote>If it helps your imagination at all, I always thought of the loams in provisioner stuff as a tool used to make them, not something you actually eat. <a href="http://www.millstreambrewing.com/Fermentation.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Like stone-filtered beer</a> - skip to the "Filtration" paragraph at the end.  The diametacious earth and carbonating stone don't exactly sound appetizing to me either, but I'll bet the end product tastes just fine. As for poisonous substances -- well, you probably drank several cups of insecticide today yourself!  Caffeine is an insecticide produced by plants to kill pesky bugs, it's not something coffee decided to produce just to make humans perky.  It's a poison to many animals, probably including us if we ate it in sufficient quantities.  Perhaps belladonna root is a stimulant to Norrathians also?  According to Google it's used in herbal medicines, so it's clearly not fatal in small quantities anyway. As for tuber strands -- a potato IS a tuber (<a href="http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Tuber" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Reference</a>) so clearly they are quite likely to be edible. There are many plants that would be used both by tailors and provisioners so the use of roots in provisioning has never bothered me that much.  Flax, for example, is a very <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1061885.stm" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">healthy food</a> and flax seeds are often found in health food stores, while flax is also very commonly cultivated to make clothing.  <a href="http://www.leef.org.uk/articles/article.php?id=20" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Nettles</a>, while not a huge industrial crop these days, has been used to make cloth for hundreds of years and are also edible (as well as used as a natural dye).  I'm actually wearing a t-shirt today made from hemp cloth, though hemp is also edible.  Etc.  The Norrathian equivalents of these harvests are quite probably a bit different from the versions we see in the real world, anyway; I think you could make an argument either way, really. </blockquote>Yes, I recall loams being mentioned as the filter in drinks and as you point out you could argue either way.  Now, what about the drink recipes that use raw meat as a component? (I'm guessing the meat gets cooked during the process!) but uuuurgh.

[Saroc_Luclin]

Even if it is still raw doesn't mean it would be bad for you (especially considering that given their animalistic roots, the Kerrans, Frogluks, Iksar, Ratonga, and probably Ogre and Trolls and soon Sarnak, all probably have few qualms about eating raw meats anyways). Even humans have raw beef sometime, see "Steak Tartare". Drinking it seems a bit off; but who knows how some race's tastes go? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Zenith]

Tubers are potatoes??? -looks down at his newly made potato robe- I really hope it doesn't rain because I went commando today!

[OakravenDesade]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote>If it helps your imagination at all, I always thought of the loams in provisioner stuff as a tool used to make them, not something you actually eat. <a href="http://www.millstreambrewing.com/Fermentation.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Like stone-filtered beer</a> - skip to the "Filtration" paragraph at the end.  The diametacious earth and carbonating stone don't exactly sound appetizing to me either, but I'll bet the end product tastes just fine. As for poisonous substances -- well, you probably drank several cups of insecticide today yourself!  Caffeine is an insecticide produced by plants to kill pesky bugs, it's not something coffee decided to produce just to make humans perky.  It's a poison to many animals, probably including us if we ate it in sufficient quantities.  Perhaps belladonna root is a stimulant to Norrathians also?  According to Google it's used in herbal medicines, so it's clearly not fatal in small quantities anyway. As for tuber strands -- a potato IS a tuber (<a href="http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Tuber" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Reference</a>) so clearly they are quite likely to be edible. There are many plants that would be used both by tailors and provisioners so the use of roots in provisioning has never bothered me that much.  Flax, for example, is a very <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1061885.stm" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">healthy food</a> and flax seeds are often found in health food stores, while flax is also very commonly cultivated to make clothing.  <a href="http://www.leef.org.uk/articles/article.php?id=20" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Nettles</a>, while not a huge industrial crop these days, has been used to make cloth for hundreds of years and are also edible (as well as used as a natural dye).  I'm actually wearing a t-shirt today made from hemp cloth, though hemp is also edible.  Etc.  The Norrathian equivalents of these harvests are quite probably a bit different from the versions we see in the real world, anyway; I think you could make an argument either way, really. </blockquote><p>for that mater the "Hot" in some spices are caused by chemicals created by plants for pest control or disease prevention.</p><p>as for edible roots you can add the following: daikon oca parsnip taro yacon galangal ginger tumeric the list goes on and on and on  heck let me just put in this link'</p><p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Root_vegetable" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Root_vegetable</a></p><p>and thats not even half of the known edible roots out their.</p>

[OakravenDesade]

incidentaly Baking soda? its made from <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trona" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trona</a>

[OakravenDesade]

<p>oops sorry for the duplicate post,</p>

[steelblueangel]

I have a lev 66 provisioner and I don't want to have to go back to gathering 10 items to make one product again. I like the provisioner tradeskills just like they are. I have 32 slot boxes and they are full already with what is required to make the food. Bank space would be over whelmed again if one has to gather all the spices mentioned to make one item, not the mention how time consuming it would be again to have to gather for hours for certain spices. No thanks, I don't want to regress back to the old way of tradeskilling.

[OakravenDesade]

<p>To be honest I personaly would not mind seeing the return of the diferent "food" harvest but only if they are combined with new recipies.</p><p>the ones that poofed over time are</p><p>Pepper(disapeared in or shortly after beta, and was peper the spice I belive) raw basil, raw nutmeg, barley, raw pecan, coldwind flounder, silverberry, birchroot, allspice, sassafras, raw black walnut, raw thyme, raw vanilla, wheat, fig, spoonleaf yucca,  radish, octopus tentacle, cinnamon, raw marjoram, rye, acorn, almond, wild garlic, plantain, blackwater snapper, honey, raw shallots, cashew, rolled oat, sage, bitter nutmeg, tarragon,manticore meat, corn, wormwood(was their an absinth recipie at the time? I can see why they pulled it if their was) (absynth has a weird legality here in the US, its not technicaly illegal to own it BUT it is illegal to import it, buy it or sell it. <img src="/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (and yes aparently its one of thoes things that HAS come up! As for makeing it RL? My sugestion would be to not try), raw saffron, kiola nut, moonflower, peppertree, ginseng, turnip, red herring, macadamia nut, cloves, date, and mulberry. . .</p><p>Granted I dont want to see them all show up at once!</p><p>(Editted to remove things that were clearly not edible!)</p>

[steelblueangel]

<p>I would love new recipes but I don't see the need of having to add combines again just to give us a new recipe. I do fine with my provisioner no complaints here with profits from sells especially on stat food and the 3 or more hour food/drinks. It's sold faster than I can make it. <img src="/smilies/49869fe8223507d7223db3451e5321aa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> So adding new recipes would very cool. But for the life of me I don't know why anyone would want to go back to combines again. If one can make the same new recipe without combines then why on earth ask for them to put all those items back in the game again? Giving us new things to make is not dependant on ingredients it's dependant on the time the devs have to devote to increasing our recipe books with new ones. Adding extra nodes to harvest or putting extra nodes into the shrubs would just complicate the process. Keep it simple is my motto and a little dirt never hurt anyone anyway. Its not like its actually consumed lol get a grip. </p>

[Vagranticide]

<p>I played EQ2 when it came out, took a break for a few years and recently came back.  I noticed I have all this raw wheat, barley, marjoram, corn, etc...</p><p>When did they remove the recipes for these items?  I'm assuming I delete everything now.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Rijacki]

<p><cite>Vagranticide wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I played EQ2 when it came out, took a break for a few years and recently came back.  I noticed I have all this raw wheat, barley, marjoram, corn, etc...</p><p>When did they remove the recipes for these items?  I'm assuming I delete everything now.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>Actually most of it is usable as other things in the 'new' stystem. For a guide, EQ2 Traders Corner and Zam both have info in dusty archives, I found the one on EQ2 Traders Corner: <a href="http://eq2.eqtraders.com/articles/article_page.php?article=g85" target="_blank">http://eq2.eqtraders.com/articles/a...php?article=g85</a></p>

[SOE-MOD-08]

<p>Please do not bump old threads.  Thank you.  </p>