At What Point Are We Going to Get Fixed? [Archive]

Godsgift4040

05-05-2007, 06:31 PM

At what point is the bruiser class going to get fixed so we have some type of thing to offer a raid. Atm we are pathetic and have no reason to be on a single raid over another class. Devs are you guys watching and playing the same game as the rest of us? I hope this fix isnt going to finally come till next expansion...... denubis befallen

grish

05-06-2007, 01:16 AM

If you wanted to be a class that guilds want more than 1 of on a raid you shouldnt have rolled a bruiser in the first place!

SlickD25

05-06-2007, 05:18 PM

<cite>Godsgift4040 wrote:</cite><blockquote>At what point is the bruiser class going to get fixed so we have some type of thing to offer a raid. Atm we are pathetic and have no reason to be on a single raid over another class. Devs are you guys watching and playing the same game as the rest of us? I hope this fix isnt going to finally come till next expansion...... denubis befallen</blockquote> At what point did we become broken? I raid consistently and have asked to change mains to my Swash, and my GL and RL hate the idea because of how much I bring to a raid. Raid utility is not solely in your abilities, but also in how you play your class. There are very few classes that can just sit and mash buttons and be great on a raid.

Godsgift4040

05-06-2007, 10:41 PM

<cite>grish wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you wanted to be a class that guilds want more than 1 of on a raid you shouldnt have rolled a bruiser in the first place!</blockquote>had no idea when i rolled the toon 2 years ago that raids now wouldnt need a single brawler on a raid. At what point did we become broken? I raid consistently and have asked to change mains to my Swash, and my GL and RL hate the idea because of how much I bring to a raid. Raid utility is not solely in your abilities, but also in how you play your class. There are very few classes that can just sit and mash buttons and be great on a raid. what utility? please enlighten me what utility we have that should Force a raid to have a single brawler on a raid. And princes is not worth while example because u can just have an alt brawler that is played for that encounter and rides the bench at every other point.

Madmoon

05-06-2007, 11:39 PM

This silly thing keeps resurfacing. Probably does so on paladin boards, and shadowknight boards, necromancer, conjuror, fury and warden boards, etc., etc. Friend, if you want to be a scout, be a scout!There is absolutely nothing wrong with us. If anything, I prefer we didn't draw attention to us, thanks all the same.I have never had a problem gettting into a raid. Matter of fact, all too often we are trying to fill the last slot or two with anyone.If you're in a raiding guild, and they won't let you in because you're a bruiser, find another raiding guild. There are a dozen or more on each server. You unhappily found the only one dumb enough not to appreciate you. If you are good at being a bruiser, the others will not make that mistake.If you are getting into raids, but aren't happy because you are not the best at ability X, betray to Qeynos. That queen can always use another monk. And hey, they get a group heal! And shiny buttons!

Cocytus

05-06-2007, 11:43 PM

Drag = best utility tbh

Kri

05-07-2007, 01:41 AM

Isn't a 'fixed' Bruiser, a Monk? <img src="/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Gungo

05-07-2007, 01:36 PM

You are severlly undervaluing us denubis.We(bruisers) can parse ~2k dps w the right gear and decent group setups. We are great for all raids that require fighter dps. We off tank ok. (True probably comparable to rogues now). stone deaf/closed mind and self cure and heal are fantastic self reliant abilites no class gets that i use religously in raids (as well as fake death). Our kos AA's are rather lackluster but EoF gave us drag. Which again is one of the greatest raid utilities in EoF. This ability specifically allows a bruiser to postion a mob better then any other class. Deal with mem wipes like no other and can completely make certain fights easier. Aoflame has a rooted epic add that aoe's. A single bruiser completely negates this mob from effecting the raid. i dont know what you really want. I see what you mean but really what do you want. The only plausible role they cna give a brawler is to reinstitute fake death pulls.

Dandeli

05-07-2007, 02:06 PM

I agree with Gungo, and going to repeat a lot of the same.First off you scream give me something another class has. The rest of us are screaming NO we already have it, dont do that, they might take away from our class. If you want what another class has, reroll. Its that simple. Bruisers cant do what wizards can. Bruisers cant do what Scouts can. Scouts and wizards cant do what Bruisers can. If you think the game is Tanking, Healing, DPS, Good Luck raiding Labs. I hope you get full excarnate and those shiney weapons. There is so much more we can do.Drag. Only Bruisers have an ability like this. When pulling Taranix into the water sometimes he does not come in all the way. PurrroBLEM! But with drag, every pull can be positioned exactly where you want it. Your guild wont suffer from the "AW Fishsticks.. bad pull bro, we'll get it again" If you don't have this, you should get it. It makes you a key asset to your raid force. If your guild doesn't want to use it, it's their choice. Not only positioning, but moving ... QUICKLY...What class can teleport an epic 30meteres near instantly? Bruiser can. Sonic Fists + Drag. Blam. Who can absorb a the main tanks ae damage without tanking damage themselve? bruiser can. Stone Deaf + Intercede. A lot of bruisers dont even think this far into their class... and when it comes time it makes you crucial. Gives the raid something they couldnt do before. Where are these things needed? Perhaps in helping split a pull from adds. I wont say where its helpful, but I know some people would like adds split from the name a lot faster <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Bruisers Parse really well. Im suprised some scouts aren't upset. Again it all comes to the player. I've seen some bruisers parse 400 consistantly. I've seen some parse 1600-2000k consistantly. On a five minute fight in MIS, I parsed 1418, which was only 100 dps less then scouts in my group. Five minutes isn't a short spiked damage fight, and being in same group, we shared the same buffs so we didn't benifit from one another. I wans't even specced dps at the time. We get Stone Deaf. Some scouts get a AE blocker but its on a much longer recast. We can sit in every other AE and continue to dps. When they call dps out for a AE, its up to you to empower yourself with Stonedeaf to know you can stay in. You also gotta know what the AE is.Its not just 3 Princes anymore that we're pretty much required for, but how about Chel Drak. That is a raid that every guild can do. You want to tear those warriors down with a beserkers whopping 1k dps? How about a Paladin? Everyone knows the best dps from a tank comes from brawlers HOLLAA!Brawlers who want to step up have to show guilds they're not just another brawler. Guilds are afraid of the 400dps brawler. They're better off recruiting a Inquisitor and begging them to go Battle Cleric. The guild I am in now, I applied to. The response I recieved, and knew I would recieve, was "Sorry we're not looking for a brawler atm, please apply in the future." My response was to that was this, "I checked your website, you only have one active brawler and I spoke with them. They aren't as active as they used to be. They also did not have a problem with me joining the guild. Im not looking to fill a open brawler spot. Im applying as an exceptional player to be reviewed for long term progression in the game. I've gone ahead and collected resist gear. Even though some of it is garbage, I can get any resist to 8k. On top of that I've got most of my masters with only 7 adept III left. You can expect a steady 700-900 dps out of me even in a garbage group. In a good group I can garuntee 1k-1200. With good gear I will give you 1500dps. (I now parse 1400-1900 btw consistantly even when Crane Flock and Knockout Combination are down.)"The next day I was recruited, and Im now a member in fully fabled gear and fully mastered (Including those masters brawlers say they dont really want/need, I got them). I've only been in the guild for 30 days and my Fae Bruiser BOOYAH was created Febuary 1rst. SO between now and then, with all my hard work, Ive surpassed players that have been playing since release. I have scouts asking me for tips, cause if I dps near them, they know they should be dps even higher. It's all about the player. If you want advice, feel free to shoot a /tell oasis.mylinda, If I dont answer Im passed out or AFK. I'll talk gear, I'll talk dps, I'll talk AA. Im very analitical and experienced. I can give facts and numbers, instead of just this is what I read on the forums.

Madmoon

05-07-2007, 02:45 PM

Dandelize, that was about as expert a write-up of raid work regarding us as I have ever seen. /applaud I have never understood bruisers who aren't using all those CAs. I have a whole hot-bar of them that rarely get used solo, infrequently while grouping, but mashed and mashed again while raiding.

Tomanak

05-07-2007, 05:10 PM

<cite>Dandelize wrote:</cite><blockquote> Who can absorb a the main tanks ae damage without tanking damage themselve? bruiser can. Stone Deaf + Intercede. </blockquote>Even if you ignored everything else you wrote (which you shouldn't) this is brilliant. This if nothing else is worth the price of admission. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Well said Dandelize. <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Godsgift4040

05-09-2007, 04:50 AM

You guys are very ignorant to the fact that there is no reason to have us in any raid. Drag? Drag is the reason? why would u ever need it? maybe one encounter the AoF but that is about it and people continue to beat it without it. If adds get by ur MT or OT and that is your rational then ur OT is poor. 2k dps? with that same group rangers do 3k+, swashies can do 3k and offer more debuffs, and aoe immunity atm, and much much better aoe dmg, brigands still do more dps then u and offer the best debuffs in the game, and assassins u run into the 3k plus dps not our 2k dps and offer more utility. When is the last time a bruiser did 2.7 or 3k zone wide in fth or put up 2.6k zonewides in mmis? Tank? we cant tank [I cannot control my vocabulary]. KoS completely different story. Crusaders Warriors can tank anything in the game, this is not the same as brawlers. We cant tank [I cannot control my vocabulary] that is worthwhile. Why bring a bruiser in a raid if we cant tank anything? Be better off bringing a zerker or an sk who brings more ultility and dps buffs then us, or even a pally as amends [I cannot control my vocabulary] so one of ur other dpsers can go all out. Then if your tank did go down or u need them to take agro, they could easily grab it.So we are the gimpest tank in the game who cant tank any avatar or any name that is worthwhile, and do [Removed for Content] dps and offer no buffs or debuffs that is worthwhile to the raid when compared to cloth or even scouts. So DRAG is worthwhile enough to have a bruiser in a raid? It is kind of laughable if you really believe that. Again, there is no reason to have a brawler in a high end raiding guild that is a main. Oh and that intercede comment....i have no comment to that.

grish

05-10-2007, 11:28 AM

First of all, 3k zonewide for any non hardcore uber raiding guild for any class is going to be near impossible. And to follow logic with you, lets just get rid of rangers to and bring all wizards because they do better dps and have better buffs. And yeah, maybe we are playing a differrnt game, because last I checked people who raid in everquest are actually a minority. So maybe the fact that bruiser is more than capable of soloing makes up for their lack of luster when you compare it to classes like brig/swash. "had no idea when i rolled the toon 2 years ago that raids now wouldnt need a single brawler on a raid. " 2 years!? You didnt notice maybe when you were leveling that plate tanks and scout/mage dps was where it was at? Really if raiding if your motivation just reroll your "broken" bruiser and make a swash or brig, really because the majority of us are going to say we arent broke. We never will be parse topping or a raid tanking class, its not how we are designed. Gonna have to learn to play your class or deal with not being able to find a guild who wants you. If you think bruisers suck, search for the guild NPU and look at their bruiser. Most HPS worldwide on the ladder @10k or so. I mean if bruisers are so broken why would all the hardcore guilds have at least one. They must just feel sorry for them.

Madmoon

05-10-2007, 11:48 AM

Look, Dandelize explained it to you in as explicit terms as one can. If all you want to do is click the same six things over and over, then, yeah, Bruiser is too complicated for you. Scout or mage is more your venue. What we do in a raid changes from raid to raid, because it depends on what happens in the raid. There's no formula the CAs that I only use in raids. And while I never - or hardly ever - top a scout or mage in DPS, I've never had one save me when I get jumped, because a) they can't and b) I'm a bruiser and don't need rescuing. However, I can pretty much count on having to bail one of them out each raid, sometimes each fight. And compared to other fighters, I still out-damage (pardon the neologism) any plate, excepting maybe berzerkers with all their crazy AoE.Nobody can do what we do in a raid. I'm sure no one in your raid says, "OK - whose going to Drag if the main fighter looses agro?" but maybe instead of whining about what we don't bring, you should be educating them, or better yet, demonstrating what we do bring. Just because it doesn't appear at the end of a parse log doesn't mean we aren't contributing, even excelling.

Emerix

05-10-2007, 12:07 PM

I still dont think bruisers are broken .

Shankonia

05-10-2007, 12:21 PM

Madmoon wrote: <blockquote>If you are getting into raids, but aren't happy because you are not the best at ability X, betray to Qeynos. That queen can always use another monk. And hey, they get a group heal! And shiny buttons! </blockquote> Don't know what game you're playing, but my Monk sure as silk dosn't have a group heal.

Shankonia

05-10-2007, 12:39 PM

Godsgift4040 wrote: <blockquote>So we are the gimpest tank in the game who cant tank any avatar or any name that is worthwhile, and do [Removed for Content] dps and offer no buffs or debuffs that is worthwhile to the raid when compared to cloth or even scouts. So DRAG is worthwhile enough to have a bruiser in a raid? It is kind of laughable if you really believe that. Again, there is no reason to have a brawler in a high end raiding guild that is a main. Oh and that intercede comment....i have no comment to that.</blockquote>Dude.You're not the best tank, but you're not the gimpest tank. You're not the gimpest brawler either. You actually have some raid utility as well. If my monk had your tanking ability, dps and raid utility, i'd be pretty happy.

Novusod

05-10-2007, 01:12 PM

It is not raid content that Bruisers are broken but heroic content. If you hate solo'ing or ever tried leveling a bruiser to 70 exclusively as a group main tank then be prepaired to spend hours lfg. If you pay attention to chat chanels at all you will probably see every five minutes people spamming "group needs plate tank for xyz dungeon." The reason I try to exclusively group is because I play on a PvP server where solo play is not recommended by any class. When I do solo PvP I have to say bruiser is probably the worst PvP class there is. I have had my [Removed for Content] handed to me by every other class. When I shelved my Bruiser and rolled a warden it was just the oposite and I no class could take me down solo. So in order for Bruisers to be "fixed" they really need a boost to their abilities to tank heroic content and better PvP survivability.

Etchii

05-10-2007, 05:36 PM

Why do we need fixing!? Bruisers do what they want! We have abilities that allow me to do what i want. I can tank, dps, stun a mob, fear another, feign pull, short duration mez, go immune to stuns/ root/ fear/ etc..., absorb 3 magic hits, hit the KO combo, drag mobs, teleport, fight without a weapon, use throwing daggers, do nice aoe dps, keep the group from having to start over (with a feather and FD) when a wipe happens. I rarely have to mend...whats the deal? we're uber. Bruisers are good at NOT having a defined role. we do what we want. Plate is gonna tank, scouts and casters are gonna dps, healers will heal. we do what we want.uber.

delbranson

05-10-2007, 07:09 PM

Agree with most the replies.Bruisers aren't broken. Some players are <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> but not bruisers as a class.I can empathize with not feeling you're at your best as a raiding bruiser, since raiding is perhaps most efficient with specialized roles and you as a bruiser are an unspecialized class. *shrug* Still exceptionally useful though, providing tactics for special pulls, drag, feign, avoidance buff on other groupmate. I don't raid much, but when I do I'm at least in the parse, usually tied with most the scouts. Granted, my dps wouldn't be nearly so high without scouts there to debuff but again *shrug* we all got our part to play. When a wipe occurs, I've been the one to rez because I'm the one who survives. When someone pulls aggro, I can take the aggro off them 100% of the time, without fail. Every raid I've been on, I've saved the main tank's life at least once. I survive AoE's that everybody else runs from. When people are stunned, feared, dazed, stifled, mezzed, charmed... there I am, still pushing my kung fu out like nobody's business. As a monkey guru, the main tank leaves the raid at the end of the night with a LOT more armor condition left than he would otherwise. Granted, we shine the most in heroic encounters, really one of the best and most fun classes around... but we're not useless or broken by any means when it comes to raiding.Bruiser = most independent classRaiding = most cooperation intensive activityYou're not going to be the star of the show, and you'll need to be creative and on the ball to be as useful as you can be. If you've been at it for 2 years though and still don't see your own worth, time to stop complaining and move on. Either to a new class that you do see the worth of, or to a new raiding guild that would appreciate what you bring to the table.I for one am afraid of any change to our class because I am personally immensely happy with my performance, from soloing, to heroic tanking/dps, to raid support. Only thing that would make me happier would be tsunami for bruisers and stone deaf for monks, letting us have equal immunities for both melee and magic for the sake of epic pulls to assist raid movement or diversion during debuffs. Even then *shrug* I'm happy as it is.

ReturnOfMadness

05-10-2007, 08:43 PM

Kalyria@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote>I still dont think bruisers are broken . </blockquote>

Rocc

05-10-2007, 08:49 PM

Whats a bruiser? Never heard of it....

Godsgift4040

05-11-2007, 03:41 AM

So the general consensus is that we are great heroic tanks and soloers. But, we do sub par dps that isnt as good as scouts or casters and we cant raid tank. Someone named the bruiser sardonis from NPU as having the highest hp ww which is baller to have, but why does hp matter if you dont tank? Hopefully he will come onto the forum and say how many avatars he has tanked, or contested mayong, or mayong in mmis, or woushi in eh, or gardener in eh, or tender in eh etc... The fact is there is no reason to have a bruiser tank any raid mob cause of the change in EoF that we lost all of our mitigation and became craptastic raid tanks. Our aoe agro is [I cannot control my vocabulary] so we shouldnt be an OT cause again a pally sk or zerker would be better for tanking adds or as an OT cause not only are they a better tank but they have better agro. So we shouldn't be on a raid for tanking nor should be on a raid for dps. So what do we offer? Ya i am an awful player that doesnt know my class lol. Seriously someone said demonstrate to ur raid leader that you know ur class......what do i show him? That i can pick up agro if tank dies just like any other type of plate tank? that i can do subpar dps? 2.2k dps should put me lower then every single scout and mage if they are played well. So drag and fd is why u bring a brawler on a raid.....come on lets be realistic that is ridiculous reason. We dont offer debuffs, we dont offer buffs, we cant tank, and we dont dps that is better then a scout or a caster. If we don't offer anything, we are a broken class. In kos a bruiser could tank anything in the game, from tarinax to lord v to mo to hurricanus. Now we cant tank [I cannot control my vocabulary] nor are we good dps relative to other classes. So again our only purpose is drag and interceding? if u really think that makes u worthy to be on a raid, i just find it amusing.

Nitrous999

05-11-2007, 06:15 AM

I really cannot believe this thread!! I have a 70 swashy and 70 bruiser. My swashy is my main raiding char and I love what i can bring to a raid but I think my bruiser could being other aspects aswell some of the posts on here have given me some great ideas for raiding with my bruiser. As a class they arnt broken, maybe we struggle to tank as well as others but we dps alot more if you wanted a great tank play a guard or zerker. I must admit i hate the fact we struggle to tank in some places but with a good healer you can tank any zone even unrest. I think it is more about the player than the class or the character after all a good player will be good no matter what class he/she plays and they will learn how to get the best from the class they play people who often complain about broken classes tend to be the ones that just simply dont know how to play their class imo

Nitrous999

05-11-2007, 06:15 AM

Bah double post

Bobbette

05-11-2007, 08:06 AM

<cite>Godsgift4040 wrote:</cite><blockquote>So the general consensus is that we are great heroic tanks and soloers. But, we do sub par dps that isnt as good as scouts or casters and we cant raid tank. Someone named the bruiser sardonis from NPU as having the highest hp ww which is baller to have, but why does hp matter if you dont tank? Hopefully he will come onto the forum and say how many avatars he has tanked, or contested mayong, or mayong in mmis, or woushi in eh, or gardener in eh, or tender in eh etc... The fact is there is no reason to have a bruiser tank any raid mob cause of the change in EoF that we lost all of our mitigation and became craptastic raid tanks. Our aoe agro is [I cannot control my vocabulary] so we shouldnt be an OT cause again a pally sk or zerker would be better for tanking adds or as an OT cause not only are they a better tank but they have better agro. So we shouldn't be on a raid for tanking nor should be on a raid for dps. So what do we offer? Ya i am an awful player that doesnt know my class lol. Seriously someone said demonstrate to ur raid leader that you know ur class......what do i show him? That i can pick up agro if tank dies just like any other type of plate tank? that i can do subpar dps? 2.2k dps should put me lower then every single scout and mage if they are played well. So drag and fd is why u bring a brawler on a raid.....come on lets be realistic that is ridiculous reason. We dont offer debuffs, we dont offer buffs, we cant tank, and we dont dps that is better then a scout or a caster. If we don't offer anything, we are a broken class. In kos a bruiser could tank anything in the game, from tarinax to lord v to mo to hurricanus. Now we cant tank [I cannot control my vocabulary] nor are we good dps relative to other classes. So again our only purpose is drag and interceding? if u really think that makes u worthy to be on a raid, i just find it amusing.</blockquote>Bottom line ... if you want to tank raids roll a guardian or a bezerker. If you want to be an off-tank, roll a paladin or shadowknight (or guard or zerker). if you want to top the parse then roll an assassin or swashy (or wizard or necro). I just have to shake my head at the people who roll a class and then complain they aren't more like *insert other class here*. If you want to be like *insert class here* then roll one. I'm not saying bruisers shouldn't or can't tank. But that's what warriors are built for and we're capable of doing so many varied things. So when both a guardian and a bruiser are present who are you going to choose to tank and who are you going to choose for the jack-of-all-trades role? It's pretty obvious. I'm very happy with what I can bring to a raid or a group. I have a plate tank character also and I'm far happier with what my bruiser can do. My bruiser is just broader in terms of skills. My SK was my main for far longer than my bruiser has been my main, and that's still been my experience. But no, my bruiser isn't a plate tank and never will be one. And that's a good thing imo.

Dandeli

05-12-2007, 02:28 AM

This is Dandelize I changed my persona just fyi to my Fae on Oasis. o.O Hey I can't help it sometimes I just feel like a big goofball...<img src="http://shiney.crasch.net/brawla2.jpg" border="0"> I just dont feel broken, I really don't. This aint no special parse of the evening, I was ripping it up I picked one, why not... Dang 5 mins must be a short spiked fight, I got lucky with a few high hits and then BLAM a wizard killed it. (This not sarcasm, its the effects of airheads and gummy bearsssss!!!!!)Brawla!I started off in my guild in the left over group. Takes time, takes effort, takes demonstrating, for a guild to be like, "Shoot, put Mylinda in the dps group, she IS dps. She's PSYCHOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!"<3 to the Bruisers who love who they are, and looking every second to improve! You'll never be perfect. I learned some from Kataii on Mistmoore just the other day <3 Kataii To the rest, roll a wizard and press buttons! Make a guardian, click taunts! But dont be a Bruiser if you cant doit. Games were meant to be fun, go have fun! If you want to wear leather, DOIT as a guardian, it looks about the same promise!

Gungo

05-12-2007, 04:15 AM

<cite>Godsgift4040 wrote:</cite><blockquote>So the general consensus is that we are great heroic tanks and soloers. But, we do sub par dps that isnt as good as scouts or casters and we cant raid tank. Someone named the bruiser sardonis from NPU as having the highest hp ww which is baller to have, but why does hp matter if you dont tank? Hopefully he will come onto the forum and say how many avatars he has tanked, or contested mayong, or mayong in mmis, or woushi in eh, or gardener in eh, or tender in eh etc... The fact is there is no reason to have a bruiser tank any raid mob cause of the change in EoF that we lost all of our mitigation and became craptastic raid tanks. Our aoe agro is [I cannot control my vocabulary] so we shouldnt be an OT cause again a pally sk or zerker would be better for tanking adds or as an OT cause not only are they a better tank but they have better agro. So we shouldn't be on a raid for tanking nor should be on a raid for dps. So what do we offer? Ya i am an awful player that doesnt know my class lol. Seriously someone said demonstrate to ur raid leader that you know ur class......what do i show him? That i can pick up agro if tank dies just like any other type of plate tank? that i can do subpar dps? 2.2k dps should put me lower then every single scout and mage if they are played well. So drag and fd is why u bring a brawler on a raid.....come on lets be realistic that is ridiculous reason. We dont offer debuffs, we dont offer buffs, we cant tank, and we dont dps that is better then a scout or a caster. If we don't offer anything, we are a broken class. In kos a bruiser could tank anything in the game, from tarinax to lord v to mo to hurricanus. Now we cant tank [I cannot control my vocabulary] nor are we good dps relative to other classes. So again our only purpose is drag and interceding? if u really think that makes u worthy to be on a raid, i just find it amusing.</blockquote> You can cross gardener off that list. DONE Um Mitigation has nothing to do with why brawlers are not ideal tanks. We actually have plenty of mitigation enough to get us to the soft cap. what we lack are skills such as tower of stone, reinforcements, etc etc Um the bruiser melee skill debuff is noticable.But really if you don't like playing a bruiser please quit. You are not addign anything constructive to the class. You can't figure out what the bruisers unique tools are or how to use them porperly. You failed at not only showing yoru guild, but yourself what we can do. We do fine better then monks imho and we actually find ourselves useful in many raids. Sometimes its drag. Sometimes its the fighter dps. Sometimes its offtanking or something as easy as draging the pumkinheaded horseman to his spot after he spawns his pumkins. Seriosously bruisers are good DPS 2k+ consisnt dps is good. maybe not in the top 5 anymore but its darn close. Remember you are NOT a scout or caster you should not outdps them. Once you learn that you will be happier with yoru class. If you cant live with that you may as well reroll now. A while back we were havign trouble with instanced mayong in eof. I told the raid leader give me a shot drop the coercer and place me in the mt group i can keep the MT up. bascially i used shrug off on the MT and interceded the timed debuff. You know what it worked the MT rarely got hit. I stood in def stance w a shti ton of defensive gear. Enough t raise my avoid to above 80% (yeha i know cap is 75% but display is toward lvl 70 mobs) I litterly ate most hits that went through. The next day the raid leader said do what you did again on this avatar i explained it wont work the same because alot of the damage was because of the aoe. In other words learn your class, Because if you play and people have to wonder [Removed for Content] you are there for then you are doing something wrong.

firedawg9

05-12-2007, 06:46 PM

I wouldnt mind seeing them give us a little boost in our dps buff. We really dont give much to a group other than rabid cry and shake off that can justify ever saying "we need a bruiser in the raid". If they doubled the amount rabid cry gave I dont see it making a huge difference to where were overpowered and would make us more sought after for raids. I agree there are alot of things bruisers can do to be beneficial on raids but its very hard to justify having more than one on any raid.

TheSource123

05-12-2007, 06:59 PM

The way I see it Bruiser's have 3 main problems. 1. We are a hybrid class that exchanges group utility for soloability. if you like to raid, Bruisers ain't for you. 2. It is FAR too easy to solo in EQ2 right now, so that "bonus" we have is null. 3. Every other tank class can do the same thing as us AND more. Plus, DPSing is far too easy, it shouldn't be the button-mash affair that it is. You should have to really WATCH yourself to make sure you don't get aggro, and if you DO get aggro it should be a BIG DEAL. No more [I cannot control my vocabulary] scouts in chainmail armor. It's not that Bruisers are underpowered, it's that the rest of the game is overpowered. Essentially the game is just far too easy, and Bruisers/Monks are the only "real" classes. SOE needs to fix the game, not the class. Why? Because I LOVE the challenge that Bruiser gives, other classes put you to sleep they are so easy. EDIT: And none of this, "If you wanna DPS make a Scout/Mage", crap scouts out-tank us easily and have far better group utility and DPS. Not to mention Necros/Conjurors which is basically a 1-way ticket to soloing every mob in the game. It's not like DPSing is hard, you're hitting buttons, making sure you don't hit too many too fast. Tanking is tough regardless, especially in raids. Honestly I think Bruiser is a good class at heart, but the game's overall difficulty could use some serious tweaking.

Dandeli

05-12-2007, 07:55 PM

<cite>firedawg911 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I wouldnt mind seeing them give us a little boost in our dps buff. We really dont give much to a group other than rabid cry and shake off that can justify ever saying "we need a bruiser in the raid". If they doubled the amount rabid cry gave I dont see it making a huge difference to where were overpowered and would make us more sought after for raids. I agree there are alot of things bruisers can do to be beneficial on raids but its very hard to justify having more than one on any raid. </blockquote> Theres really not much use to have more then 1 of each class on a raid... Only in the most extreme high end guilds... will they have the ideal makeup they want for every named fight in every zone (Which does include bruisers many times). If your complaining here that your class sucks, your probably not the player they're looking for. I thought my screenshot above would clear the point that we are dps which is clearly important to the raid. That was a long steady fight. I had a good group for dps and so did they (They had their troub dehate, their time compression, their synergism). I beat out wizards and assassins. There's a swash there also. What will you do in a 30 minute avatar fight if you cant sustain 5 mins? I was 4/5 of my power gone at 5 mins. When most people brag about their dps, its always some short trash fight. Everyone knows there are scouts that parse 3k. There are scouts that struggle for 700dps. Same class. Going that class does not mean you will be a 3k dpser. You have to learn to play it, just like you have to learn to play a bruiser. What the long parse shows, how well you can sustain the dps. WHat happens when your power is dripping in... What happens when its not trash, and its a real fight? That's where it counts. Who cares about 3k on trash. Trash dont drop much goodies ever... (Some of you might ask for those adept I's YEEEEK!!!)DPsing isnt just about button mashing. If thats what you doing, thats probably why your dps is hurting. If you button mash on a scout, your dps will hurt too. Stop comparing yourself to the best if your not. Compare yourself to someone of your play ability. If you do crap bruiser dps, compare yourself to a crappy scout. Dont compare yourself to the best fabled out fully mastered scout on your server and say BAH my button mashing treasured doesnt compare, my class is broken.

Sir_Halbarad

05-12-2007, 09:45 PM

Mylinda@Oasis wrote: <blockquote> Stop comparing yourself to the best if your not. Compare yourself to someone of your play ability. If you do crap bruiser dps, compare yourself to a crappy scout. Dont compare yourself to the best fabled out fully mastered scout on your server and say BAH my button mashing treasured doesnt compare, my class is broken.</blockquote>So true <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

firedawg9

05-13-2007, 02:26 AM

Mylinda@Oasis wrote: <blockquote><cite>firedawg911 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I wouldnt mind seeing them give us a little boost in our dps buff. We really dont give much to a group other than rabid cry and shake off that can justify ever saying "we need a bruiser in the raid". If they doubled the amount rabid cry gave I dont see it making a huge difference to where were overpowered and would make us more sought after for raids. I agree there are alot of things bruisers can do to be beneficial on raids but its very hard to justify having more than one on any raid. </blockquote> Theres really not much use to have more then 1 of each class on a raid... Only in the most extreme high end guilds... will they have the ideal makeup they want for every named fight in every zone (Which does include bruisers many times). If your complaining here that your class sucks, your probably not the player they're looking for. I thought my screenshot above would clear the point that we are dps which is clearly important to the raid. That was a long steady fight. I had a good group for dps and so did they (They had their troub dehate, their time compression, their synergism). I beat out wizards and assassins. There's a swash there also. What will you do in a 30 minute avatar fight if you cant sustain 5 mins? I was 4/5 of my power gone at 5 mins. When most people brag about their dps, its always some short trash fight. Everyone knows there are scouts that parse 3k. There are scouts that struggle for 700dps. Same class. Going that class does not mean you will be a 3k dpser. You have to learn to play it, just like you have to learn to play a bruiser. What the long parse shows, how well you can sustain the dps. WHat happens when your power is dripping in... What happens when its not trash, and its a real fight? That's where it counts. Who cares about 3k on trash. Trash dont drop much goodies ever... (Some of you might ask for those adept I's YEEEEK!!!)DPsing isnt just about button mashing. If thats what you doing, thats probably why your dps is hurting. If you button mash on a scout, your dps will hurt too. Stop comparing yourself to the best if your not. Compare yourself to someone of your play ability. If you do crap bruiser dps, compare yourself to a crappy scout. Dont compare yourself to the best fabled out fully mastered scout on your server and say BAH my button mashing treasured doesnt compare, my class is broken.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------For starters I know the class very well. Secondly I dont think I was saying the class sucked. Dont think I would be playing the brawler class for over 3 years if I thought it sucked. Every expansion we have suffered some kind of nerf however. Would be nice to actually be improved to be more beneficial on raids rather than just a drager, interceder, or someone that can absorb an AoE. Absorbing the AoE is overrated when you have 4 bards on raid all with blade dance as well as Swashies and Zerkers that can provide AoE immunity as well. Sorry that is not going to justify getting you in. Without a decent group we will get outparsed by classes that have no business beating us like Furies, Illusionists, and Inquisitors on some fights. If you say im wrong your in denial or have lousy Furies, Illusionists, and Inquisitors in your guild. If your beating Wizards and Assassins that have good setups they are just not very good unless there very short fights and there cool downs are not up. I dont care how good of a Bruiser you are you should not be beating them classes consistently with the right makeups.Now being in a top end raiding guild that has downed everything in the game except for Avatars and contested Mayong I will say that Bruisers need tweaking. If you have more than one on your roster there are very few instances where there going to say lets grab a second bruiser over even a 3rd or 4th rogue in a raid. Now if we had a little more to offer a group in the means of buffs (dps buff for instance) it would be justified to grab an extra Bruiser for a raid. I personally would like to see some love for my class in the next expansion. We got [Removed for Content] in EoF and KoS with very subpar AA's and major nerfs to our utilities without noticable improvement with what they supposedly gave us. DoF wasnt much better to us either come to think about it.</blockquote>

Gungo

05-13-2007, 03:41 PM

I am quite certain there will be no class balancing changes until after RoK comes out. Classes are fairly balanced as they are. There will be no new AA's. So no changes in class roles through new abilites. And 1 new spell< NO clue what this new spell will bring. ALTHOUGH there is one significant change in the future. With the inclusion of epic weapons. They are redoing AA's that have requirements. Thus you can wield your clas sspecific epic and use ANY aa line. I am sure this change will require some tweaking, but this change has the added benefit of possibly increasing bruiser dps ALOT. Depending if the unarmed requirement is removed from the Str AA line. The point is EVEN if they increase bruiser dps our role and reason we are on raids does not change. We will still not outdps pure dps classes. We will still be taken on raids for drag, fighter dps, offtanking, melle skill debuff, and shrug off. Your role will not change so learn to play yoru class and quit complaining.

Rhita

05-15-2007, 12:59 AM

i'm sorry, but i gotta agree with Deunbis on this one... sure they can put us in a good group and we can parse 1200-1500... wow.... when scouts in that same group can do far better... brawlers in general need their dps to go up because the fact is, a brawler is pure dps.... they should be just like a scout tbh, they get more avoidance cuz they are in leather and are more squishy then an actual scout.... doesnt mean that they are not pure dps. nobody wants a brawler to tank over a plate, and nobody wants a brawler to dps over a scout/mage... so what else do we got? seriously we are pure dps dunno why you would think differently

Godsgift4040

05-15-2007, 01:00 AM

Gungo@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote><cite>Godsgift4040 wrote:</cite><blockquote>So the general consensus is that we are great heroic tanks and soloers. But, we do sub par dps that isnt as good as scouts or casters and we cant raid tank. Someone named the bruiser sardonis from NPU as having the highest hp ww which is baller to have, but why does hp matter if you dont tank? Hopefully he will come onto the forum and say how many avatars he has tanked, or contested mayong, or mayong in mmis, or woushi in eh, or gardener in eh, or tender in eh etc... The fact is there is no reason to have a bruiser tank any raid mob cause of the change in EoF that we lost all of our mitigation and became craptastic raid tanks. Our aoe agro is [I cannot control my vocabulary] so we shouldnt be an OT cause again a pally sk or zerker would be better for tanking adds or as an OT cause not only are they a better tank but they have better agro. So we shouldn't be on a raid for tanking nor should be on a raid for dps. So what do we offer? Ya i am an awful player that doesnt know my class lol. Seriously someone said demonstrate to ur raid leader that you know ur class......what do i show him? That i can pick up agro if tank dies just like any other type of plate tank? that i can do subpar dps? 2.2k dps should put me lower then every single scout and mage if they are played well. So drag and fd is why u bring a brawler on a raid.....come on lets be realistic that is ridiculous reason. We dont offer debuffs, we dont offer buffs, we cant tank, and we dont dps that is better then a scout or a caster. If we don't offer anything, we are a broken class. In kos a bruiser could tank anything in the game, from tarinax to lord v to mo to hurricanus. Now we cant tank [I cannot control my vocabulary] nor are we good dps relative to other classes. So again our only purpose is drag and interceding? if u really think that makes u worthy to be on a raid, i just find it amusing.</blockquote> You can cross gardener off that list. DONE Um Mitigation has nothing to do with why brawlers are not ideal tanks. We actually have plenty of mitigation enough to get us to the soft cap. what we lack are skills such as tower of stone, reinforcements, etc etc Um the bruiser melee skill debuff is noticable.But really if you don't like playing a bruiser please quit. You are not addign anything constructive to the class. You can't figure out what the bruisers unique tools are or how to use them porperly. You failed at not only showing yoru guild, but yourself what we can do. We do fine better then monks imho and we actually find ourselves useful in many raids. Sometimes its drag. Sometimes its the fighter dps. Sometimes its offtanking or something as easy as draging the pumkinheaded horseman to his spot after he spawns his pumkins. Seriosously bruisers are good DPS 2k+ consisnt dps is good. maybe not in the top 5 anymore but its darn close. Remember you are NOT a scout or caster you should not outdps them. Once you learn that you will be happier with yoru class. If you cant live with that you may as well reroll now. A while back we were havign trouble with instanced mayong in eof. I told the raid leader give me a shot drop the coercer and place me in the mt group i can keep the MT up. bascially i used shrug off on the MT and interceded the timed debuff. You know what it worked the MT rarely got hit. I stood in def stance w a shti ton of defensive gear. Enough t raise my avoid to above 80% (yeha i know cap is 75% but display is toward lvl 70 mobs) I litterly ate most hits that went through. The next day the raid leader said do what you did again on this avatar i explained it wont work the same because alot of the damage was because of the aoe. In other words learn your class, Because if you play and people have to wonder [Removed for Content] you are there for then you are doing something wrong. </blockquote>Gardner after he is nerfed to patheticness and did you really tank him or did u simply take him after the charm once he was debuffed? we will never know that. If you need intercede and shake off to keep your MT up on instanced mayong.....i guess your healers are crap. Has nothing to do about knowing your class that is a absolutely stupid idea. Wouldnt three healers be better and coercer and dirge with the tank? Why have shake off on tank on an orange mob when your avoidance and his is almost completely negated? Again 3 healers be much better then you in the MT group. Again 2k isnt good dps or worthy dps to get you on a raid over any caster or any scout. Keep coming with your thoughts because the stupidity of them is amusing.

Gungo

05-15-2007, 11:12 PM

<cite>Godsgift4040 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Gungo@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote><cite>Godsgift4040 wrote:</cite><blockquote>So the general consensus is that we are great heroic tanks and soloers. But, we do sub par dps that isnt as good as scouts or casters and we cant raid tank. Someone named the bruiser sardonis from NPU as having the highest hp ww which is baller to have, but why does hp matter if you dont tank? Hopefully he will come onto the forum and say how many avatars he has tanked, or contested mayong, or mayong in mmis, or woushi in eh, or gardener in eh, or tender in eh etc... The fact is there is no reason to have a bruiser tank any raid mob cause of the change in EoF that we lost all of our mitigation and became craptastic raid tanks. Our aoe agro is [I cannot control my vocabulary] so we shouldnt be an OT cause again a pally sk or zerker would be better for tanking adds or as an OT cause not only are they a better tank but they have better agro. So we shouldn't be on a raid for tanking nor should be on a raid for dps. So what do we offer? Ya i am an awful player that doesnt know my class lol. Seriously someone said demonstrate to ur raid leader that you know ur class......what do i show him? That i can pick up agro if tank dies just like any other type of plate tank? that i can do subpar dps? 2.2k dps should put me lower then every single scout and mage if they are played well. So drag and fd is why u bring a brawler on a raid.....come on lets be realistic that is ridiculous reason. We dont offer debuffs, we dont offer buffs, we cant tank, and we dont dps that is better then a scout or a caster. If we don't offer anything, we are a broken class. In kos a bruiser could tank anything in the game, from tarinax to lord v to mo to hurricanus. Now we cant tank [I cannot control my vocabulary] nor are we good dps relative to other classes. So again our only purpose is drag and interceding? if u really think that makes u worthy to be on a raid, i just find it amusing.</blockquote> You can cross gardener off that list. DONE Um Mitigation has nothing to do with why brawlers are not ideal tanks. We actually have plenty of mitigation enough to get us to the soft cap. what we lack are skills such as tower of stone, reinforcements, etc etc Um the bruiser melee skill debuff is noticable.But really if you don't like playing a bruiser please quit. You are not addign anything constructive to the class. You can't figure out what the bruisers unique tools are or how to use them porperly. You failed at not only showing yoru guild, but yourself what we can do. We do fine better then monks imho and we actually find ourselves useful in many raids. Sometimes its drag. Sometimes its the fighter dps. Sometimes its offtanking or something as easy as draging the pumkinheaded horseman to his spot after he spawns his pumkins. Seriosously bruisers are good DPS 2k+ consisnt dps is good. maybe not in the top 5 anymore but its darn close. Remember you are NOT a scout or caster you should not outdps them. Once you learn that you will be happier with yoru class. If you cant live with that you may as well reroll now. A while back we were havign trouble with instanced mayong in eof. I told the raid leader give me a shot drop the coercer and place me in the mt group i can keep the MT up. bascially i used shrug off on the MT and interceded the timed debuff. You know what it worked the MT rarely got hit. I stood in def stance w a shti ton of defensive gear. Enough t raise my avoid to above 80% (yeha i know cap is 75% but display is toward lvl 70 mobs) I litterly ate most hits that went through. The next day the raid leader said do what you did again on this avatar i explained it wont work the same because alot of the damage was because of the aoe. In other words learn your class, Because if you play and people have to wonder [Removed for Content] you are there for then you are doing something wrong. </blockquote>Gardner after he is nerfed to patheticness and did you really tank him or did u simply take him after the charm once he was debuffed? we will never know that. If you need intercede and shake off to keep your MT up on instanced mayong.....i guess your healers are crap. Has nothing to do about knowing your class that is a absolutely stupid idea. Wouldnt three healers be better and coercer and dirge with the tank? Why have shake off on tank on an orange mob when your avoidance and his is almost completely negated? Again 3 healers be much better then you in the MT group. Again 2k isnt good dps or worthy dps to get you on a raid over any caster or any scout. Keep coming with your thoughts because the stupidity of them is amusing.</blockquote>Nope MT went LD during pull. I tanked it the entire time unless i got charmed, But i was able to keep grabbing gardner. Dunno we killed mayong the first time like that it worked great because i was also abel to cure the group if we got stunned. And i am able to jack my avoid up to 80% so even if the orange mob reduced it i still avoided for the MT a ton. Look again we had dropped the coercer and used the bruiser in his place. Like i said before it sucks you don't know how to play yoru character Or know how to use the tools available to play your character. Maybe one day you will learn.

tt66

05-16-2007, 12:28 PM

Gungo@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>The point is EVEN if they increase bruiser dps our role and reason we are on raids does not change. We will still not outdps pure dps classes. We will still be taken on raids for drag, fighter dps, offtanking, melle skill debuff, and shrug off. Your role will not change so learn to play yoru class and quit complaining. </blockquote> Sounds about right. Although I personally think that the platewearers are better equipped for an OT role than a brawler, if your healers aren't on the ball. At the end of the day, in most raids we appear to be another warm body on a raid offering fighter dps, with enough little tricks (drag, fd, eye gouge, mantis star, intercede/stonedeaf etc. etc.) that it's probably worth having one of us along. We won't be taking the place of a swashy in the DPS group, but we stand a chance of taking the place of that 3rd or 4th fighter type...

Madmoon

05-16-2007, 01:18 PM

<cite>Fearacron wrote:</cite><blockquote>i'm sorry, but i gotta agree with Deunbis on this one... sure they can put us in a good group and we can parse 1200-1500... wow.... when scouts in that same group can do far better... brawlers in general need their dps to go up because the fact is, a brawler is pure dps.... they should be just like a scout tbh, they get more avoidance cuz they are in leather and are more squishy then an actual scout.... doesnt mean that they are not pure dps. nobody wants a brawler to tank over a plate, and nobody wants a brawler to dps over a scout/mage... so what else do we got? seriously we are pure dps dunno why you would think differently</blockquote><pulls Fearacorn to the side>Listen, got a little newsflash. WE are NOT SCOUTS! We're bruisers. Yes, we can damage, but that is not our only ability. I don't want to be a scout! I am not "pure dps!" I bring a lot more to the table than mashing the same tedious six buttons in a row. We are not taken over plate tanks for pure hit-soaking and we are not taken over scouts and mages for damage output because we are not plateheads or scouts. We are bruisers! Check out Dandelize's excellent post about what we do in a raid. And that's just a start. If you want to bot the same five or six CAs, try a brigand! If you cannot stand being in the middle of some parser (and I am almost always ahead of some similarly equipped scout or mage, and behind others, so we are pretty close to the top, as is) get counseling or try a swashbuckler. If you are not getting invited to raids because you are a bruiser, join the FotM and be a wizard! But none of them can do what we can, and good groups and good guilds know it. Gungo@Crushbone wrote:"Like i said before it sucks you don't know how to play yoru character Or know how to use the tools available to play your character. Maybe one day you will learn. [sic]"It pains me, beyond all dimension, to say this, but Gungo is right. Gah! But it's true. Look at the CAs we have. I have a whole row I use only rarely except in raids, and then they're constantly being deployed. We have the CAs, the EoF/Kos AAs, that really give us the tools to shine. Use them! And for the gods' sake, stop wishing to turn us into wimpy scouts and single-purpose plates!Redmouser Bruiser, AB

Shankonia

05-16-2007, 04:52 PM

I can't believe some of you guys are complaining about 2.2k dps!?!?!?Hope you get caught alone in an alley by a group of Monks one day. They'll all do max dps on yo a$$ topping out around 1400 and feel reallly, really good about it when they look at the parse.

Godsgift4040

05-16-2007, 06:00 PM

Gungo@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote><cite>Godsgift4040 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Gungo@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote><cite>Godsgift4040 wrote:</cite><blockquote>So the general consensus is that we are great heroic tanks and soloers. But, we do sub par dps that isnt as good as scouts or casters and we cant raid tank. Someone named the bruiser sardonis from NPU as having the highest hp ww which is baller to have, but why does hp matter if you dont tank? Hopefully he will come onto the forum and say how many avatars he has tanked, or contested mayong, or mayong in mmis, or woushi in eh, or gardener in eh, or tender in eh etc... The fact is there is no reason to have a bruiser tank any raid mob cause of the change in EoF that we lost all of our mitigation and became craptastic raid tanks. Our aoe agro is [I cannot control my vocabulary] so we shouldnt be an OT cause again a pally sk or zerker would be better for tanking adds or as an OT cause not only are they a better tank but they have better agro. So we shouldn't be on a raid for tanking nor should be on a raid for dps. So what do we offer? Ya i am an awful player that doesnt know my class lol. Seriously someone said demonstrate to ur raid leader that you know ur class......what do i show him? That i can pick up agro if tank dies just like any other type of plate tank? that i can do subpar dps? 2.2k dps should put me lower then every single scout and mage if they are played well. So drag and fd is why u bring a brawler on a raid.....come on lets be realistic that is ridiculous reason. We dont offer debuffs, we dont offer buffs, we cant tank, and we dont dps that is better then a scout or a caster. If we don't offer anything, we are a broken class. In kos a bruiser could tank anything in the game, from tarinax to lord v to mo to hurricanus. Now we cant tank [I cannot control my vocabulary] nor are we good dps relative to other classes. So again our only purpose is drag and interceding? if u really think that makes u worthy to be on a raid, i just find it amusing.</blockquote> You can cross gardener off that list. DONE Um Mitigation has nothing to do with why brawlers are not ideal tanks. We actually have plenty of mitigation enough to get us to the soft cap. what we lack are skills such as tower of stone, reinforcements, etc etc Um the bruiser melee skill debuff is noticable.But really if you don't like playing a bruiser please quit. You are not addign anything constructive to the class. You can't figure out what the bruisers unique tools are or how to use them porperly. You failed at not only showing yoru guild, but yourself what we can do. We do fine better then monks imho and we actually find ourselves useful in many raids. Sometimes its drag. Sometimes its the fighter dps. Sometimes its offtanking or something as easy as draging the pumkinheaded horseman to his spot after he spawns his pumkins. Seriosously bruisers are good DPS 2k+ consisnt dps is good. maybe not in the top 5 anymore but its darn close. Remember you are NOT a scout or caster you should not outdps them. Once you learn that you will be happier with yoru class. If you cant live with that you may as well reroll now. A while back we were havign trouble with instanced mayong in eof. I told the raid leader give me a shot drop the coercer and place me in the mt group i can keep the MT up. bascially i used shrug off on the MT and interceded the timed debuff. You know what it worked the MT rarely got hit. I stood in def stance w a shti ton of defensive gear. Enough t raise my avoid to above 80% (yeha i know cap is 75% but display is toward lvl 70 mobs) I litterly ate most hits that went through. The next day the raid leader said do what you did again on this avatar i explained it wont work the same because alot of the damage was because of the aoe. In other words learn your class, Because if you play and people have to wonder [Removed for Content] you are there for then you are doing something wrong. </blockquote>Gardner after he is nerfed to patheticness and did you really tank him or did u simply take him after the charm once he was debuffed? we will never know that. If you need intercede and shake off to keep your MT up on instanced mayong.....i guess your healers are crap. Has nothing to do about knowing your class that is a absolutely stupid idea. Wouldnt three healers be better and coercer and dirge with the tank? Why have shake off on tank on an orange mob when your avoidance and his is almost completely negated? Again 3 healers be much better then you in the MT group. Again 2k isnt good dps or worthy dps to get you on a raid over any caster or any scout. Keep coming with your thoughts because the stupidity of them is amusing.</blockquote>Nope MT went LD during pull. I tanked it the entire time unless i got charmed, But i was able to keep grabbing gardner. Dunno we killed mayong the first time like that it worked great because i was also abel to cure the group if we got stunned. And i am able to jack my avoid up to 80% so even if the orange mob reduced it i still avoided for the MT a ton. Look again we had dropped the coercer and used the bruiser in his place. Like i said before it sucks you don't know how to play yoru character Or know how to use the tools available to play your character. Maybe one day you will learn. </blockquote>Lol what a post. Keep having your guild put a bruiser in the MT group on an orange mob instead of a coercer. I hope you guys succeed. Avoidance again on an orange mob really is almost fully negated so when you say, TON, i have problems believing you. If this is such a wonderful idea, why haven't u done it again? Simple answer, because it was a [Removed for Content] idea to begin with and i have no idea how you managed to convince your leaders to begin with in allowing it. Keep posting wonderful ideas gungo you truly are a spectacle. IF bruisers were truly so amazing in the MT group, instead of a coercer, or 3 healers, or a dirge, i am pretty sure more guilds would use it ;p. However, you might find you are the minority here, which might tell you that you are wrong, and your idea was stupid. So again, we are sub par dps, that cant tank about 90 percent of all EoF raid names, have the worst or 2nd worst agro ahead of monks maybe, and have the utility of drag, a small dps mod which is the easiest to increases vs haste do to adornment and dps items, and one debuff......Explain to me why we should be on a raid again? You cant you are kidding yourself if you think another class cant do it better then you. I love the bruiser class, I wont stop playing my bruiser but it saddens me when we truly have no reason to be on any raids.

Gungo

05-16-2007, 07:26 PM

Denubis i realize yoru not a good bruiser and i wasn't goign to justify why your guild makes you sit. But you have been nothing but a [I cannot control my vocabulary] in this thread. So here it is. You have no clue what the hell your talkign about. The simple matter is all a coercer adds to the group is hate gain, extra mana regen, Dps, and with the right aa's mana ward/heal crit. We killed it our first try with a bruiser in the MT group. Why, well not only did i add a dps buff as well, i was able to cure the group stun multipel times (w self cure and closed mind/ potion), I was able to intercede and self heal And shrug off was huge. The coercer added Nothing needed in that fight, the healer never ran out of mana and hate wasnt needed because dps was split between adds and jousting the aoe. See this gets to the point where you have no clue how your buffs work and shows why your guild considers you a poor player, hence you dont get invited to raids often. Do you realize w max parry + deflection i was able to avoid 1 out of 4 hits for the MT. Once the mob is debuffed his combat skill reduction is virtually negated and his lvl reduction can only go so far. So that 56% master 1 avoid buff actually makes a noticable impact. You can check my numbers by going through your log the day you learn to play your class. Until then keep crying until we get scout dps, becuase it should never happen. Finally you do realize every successful guild has a brawler in thier raid/guild. And the majority of the time its a bruiser. Why is that? Well because those that know how to play a bruiser do it so well we make an impact on how the guild performs. You on the other hand has already stated your guild is willing to sit you for practically any other class. Which leads many real bruisers to beleive your just a poor player.

Madmoon

05-16-2007, 11:04 PM

Gungo@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>Denubis i realize yoru not a good bruiser and i wasn't goign to justify why your guild makes you sit. But you have been nothing but a [I cannot control my vocabulary] in this thread. So here it is. You have no clue what the hell your talkign about. The simple matter is all a coercer adds to the group is hate gain, extra mana regen, Dps, and with the right aa's mana ward/heal crit. We killed it our first try with a bruiser in the MT group. Why, well not only did i add a dps buff as well, i was able to cure the group stun multipel times (w self cure and closed mind/ potion), I was able to intercede and self heal And shrug off was huge. The coercer added Nothing needed in that fight, the healer never ran out of mana and hate wasnt needed because dps was split between adds and jousting the aoe. See this gets to the point where you have no clue how your buffs work and shows why your guild considers you a poor player, hence you dont get invited to raids often. Do you realize w max parry + deflection i was able to avoid 1 out of 4 hits for the MT. Once the mob is debuffed his combat skill reduction is virtually negated and his lvl reduction can only go so far. So that 56% master 1 avoid buff actually makes a noticable impact. You can check my numbers by going through your log the day you learn to play your class. Until then keep crying until we get scout dps, becuase it should never happen. Finally you do realize every successful guild has a brawler in thier raid/guild. And the majority of the time its a bruiser. Why is that? Well because those that know how to play a bruiser do it so well we make an impact on how the guild performs. You on the other hand has already stated your guild is willing to sit you for practically any other class. Which leads many real bruisers to beleive your just a poor player. </blockquote>Jeez, Denubis, you had to go get him exercised!<starts putting on his fire resist gear>It's not going to get any better from here. And I JUST got the bloodstains out of the boots, too.Redmouser Bruiser, AB

Raidi Sovin'faile

05-17-2007, 04:12 AM

While I agree we have some nice things to bring to a raid (especially since Drag is unique enough still), quite a few things mentioned can be done by many others.The avoidance buff at maste 1 is the same percentage chance for all fighters. A tower shield using plate tank should have quite close to the same avoidance we could give. ANY fighter in the raid can Intercede from any group and take the hit.. at which point, a single group heal or spot heal by that group's healer would be barely noticed... self heal isn't the be-all here. Especially since intercede can be recast far quicker than even our own quick self heal.Also, there's plenty of classes that are already wanted on the raid for other reasons that can debuff attack skill (bards, furies, etc). Eye-gouge does nothing for casting skill either, unfortunately. Between adornments and EoF gear, it's getting to the point that Brawlers can reach avoidance and mitigation that are "good enough" (reached soft cap) that we could be considered tank enough to take Epic hits. It would be nice if we had a little more in the way of single target aggro control to have a leg up in certain fights (and therefore preferred over plate tanks for such fights)... perhaps a way to land hits better?Alternatively, or in addtion, it would be nice to have a similarly group giving bonus to the other tanks... something like maybe a general group damage bonus or proc in addition to our minor +DPS bonus. Or, as an alternative, a general group +melee attack increase.. meaning folks land hits more often.These two things would definately make it so a Bruiser (or a Monk if they were given similar bonuses) in the MT group (or even the raid in general) would be much more wide spread, possibly even for tanking certain fights and at least for definitive group bonuses for doing damage or holding aggro. Basically.. while others could give all that we give in small parts, our package of benefits as a whole would be boosted just a bit to make us a little more... "wanted".Personally, I don't think our DPS needs to be increased much.. although I'd like more "options" to make our character builds "more fun". Numbers-wise we aren't all that bad for a tank... but we definately don't have any advantage anymore to warrant having fewer group/raid benefiting utility.

Godsgift4040

05-17-2007, 04:54 AM

Gungo@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>Denubis i realize yoru not a good bruiser and i wasn't goign to justify why your guild makes you sit. But you have been nothing but a [I cannot control my vocabulary] in this thread. So here it is. You have no clue what the hell your talkign about. The simple matter is all a coercer adds to the group is hate gain, extra mana regen, Dps, and with the right aa's mana ward/heal crit. We killed it our first try with a bruiser in the MT group. Why, well not only did i add a dps buff as well, i was able to cure the group stun multipel times (w self cure and closed mind/ potion), I was able to intercede and self heal And shrug off was huge. The coercer added Nothing needed in that fight, the healer never ran out of mana and hate wasnt needed because dps was split between adds and jousting the aoe. See this gets to the point where you have no clue how your buffs work and shows why your guild considers you a poor player, hence you dont get invited to raids often. Do you realize w max parry + deflection i was able to avoid 1 out of 4 hits for the MT. Once the mob is debuffed his combat skill reduction is virtually negated and his lvl reduction can only go so far. So that 56% master 1 avoid buff actually makes a noticable impact. You can check my numbers by going through your log the day you learn to play your class. Until then keep crying until we get scout dps, becuase it should never happen. Finally you do realize every successful guild has a brawler in thier raid/guild. And the majority of the time its a bruiser. Why is that? Well because those that know how to play a bruiser do it so well we make an impact on how the guild performs. You on the other hand has already stated your guild is willing to sit you for practically any other class. Which leads many real bruisers to beleive your just a poor player. </blockquote> You have dodge my question again. So you continue to use a bruiser in the MT group? The answer is no. Yea i am a poor at my class [Removed for Content]. I am so poor i tell my leaders to put me in the MT group so i can intercede.....being that you can do that cross group and give the MT a small avoidance upgrade instead of having a mana battery so the three healers can spam heal more if need be. To be honest once a mob the mob is debuffed do your healers actually have problems with keeping ur tank up? if so i think that might be your problem maybe u should get compitent healers and you would see you are even more useless to begin with. Some how u managed to pull out 1 out of 4 attacks from your [Removed for Content]. If you are soooooo good in the MT group why arent you permanently there? Again you advocated yourself being in the MT group on an orange mob... Gungo you are truly a funny funny man. The fact remains, you dont out dps any mage or scout, you dont tank or if u do (claim that you did once on one mob that was nerfed....and it isnt even confirmed....) you tank it worse then every other tank in the game, and you offer intercede and drag. If your guild has 24 other very skilled players you cant justify yourself being part of a raid unless it is one of the few that drag is actually extremely useful such as AoF. Oh ya and for avatar of fear cause bruiser are great at taking the DT because we are so useless otherwise. If you have a guild full of talented players who know their class, their is no reason to bring a brawler on a raid. Every raid guild has a bruiser? try again. Before you keep spitting complete fabrication get your facts straight. There are many end game guilds who either have no bruiser or no main brawler main. Even some that do have a bruiser have been with the guild for a long time which leads to the fact that they arent going to kick them... Anyways find a way to amuse me with your next post.

Shankonia

05-17-2007, 02:27 PM

Godsgift4040 wrote You have dodge my question again. So you continue to use a bruiser in the MT group? The answer is no. Yea i am a poor at my class [Removed for Content]. I am so poor i tell my leaders to put me in the MT group so i can intercede.....being that you can do that cross group and give the MT a small avoidance upgrade instead of having a mana battery so the three healers can spam heal more if need be.Hey Gods Gift - usually, if you are in the MT group it means a couple of things in which you usually cannot have when interceding cross raid, or for buffing the MT w/ your avoidance.1.) Added avoidance from Dirge and Guard.2.) Crazy HP, thanks Mr. Defiler.3.) Best Wards that make Intercede much more viable, thanks again Mr. Defiler.-----------------------------------------I've been in a guild whose leaders have used your logic for quite some time (especially our former leader) - and it's my feeling that it is a large reason that we have not been as successful as we should be otherwise is what I call healer logic. The logic I speak of is the strat of regen in every group and alot of healers. "Let's heal this mob t/o death as opposed to killing it faster." Not only does that line of thinking totally sooook. But it's [Removed for Content]' boring.I also don't think Gungo is saying Bruiser in the MT group everytime FTW. He's simply giving an example as to how Brawlers can be used benefically in a raid. Monks have a slightly better go at it in the MT group as we have similar avoidance, can heal the MT and can transfer just a little bit of hate w/ the right AA's - but bruiser has better utility. Group cure stun is huge.

heelena

05-18-2007, 04:13 AM

hi bruisers, i am reading this sad post, and probably any other, and i must say its not nice that we are now against each other.gungo, i read your posts since a long time already. you are the man who keeps the bruiser spirit up and try to give any positive aspect on the bruisers a chance. godsgift you at the other hand are the new type of players, see the thing which could be done better.both sides are right.for my thing, bruisers are a very good utility class for raids, but we need something what makes us more different than drag... yes we can dps - after butting everything into aa´s and have a ton of proc gear we need a good grp for more dps. but you can also but in the same grp a briga or a assassin and the dps of a bruiser looks awefull. and yes we can offtank if the mt is down. and we are not bad in that. but every raidforce has a zerker and a guardian for that - guardian down - zerker takes over - and where is now the bruiser with the ton of avoid gear? he is in the melee dps grp, trying to keep the raidleaders attention and praying that on the next named we are not getting replaced. and i think, the posters here are all the same lvl, more or less. everyone of us knows how to play the bruiser. excuse me, its not real hard to play eq2 at all. for my part, i wish that this class stay´s like it is. i dont want more dps - we are fighters. i dont want mitigation from a zerker - we have leather to avoid - what i want is just ONE more spell which makes the bruisers / monks needed! i think more of an grp wide antistun buff for more than a minute. something like that and we will be NEEDED and not used. shifter - valor

Shankonia

05-18-2007, 02:07 PM

Yeah, both Bruisers and Monks could use some type of added group enhancing Utility - and that's it.I tank fine when needed, but I don't want to be a raid MT b/c that's not what the brawler is.I DPS fine, even better than lazy scouts sometimes, but i'm not a T1 DPS class so I have no problem doing T2 DPS.So what am I? As a Monk I don't debuff anything other than Stamina from AA's, and the only buff I have is 22 haste. Sure, I know the few things I can bring to the raid table, but the way it stands now, how will I ever get to prove my worth to a new guild if i'm not already established? On paper, we suck. We're not even the last guy picked anymore in the kickball game - we are the kickball itself.The problem lies in the fact that we don't do jack for everyone else. Take a look at the somtimes spat on SK, and you'll find a heal proc, debuffs and their Death March is just icing on the cake (Death March is [Removed for Content] nasty!!). SK's are like the plate tanking Dirge and they provide better overall raid DPS than Monks, that's for sure.Would it be so hard to make us the leather who can 'oh $hit' tank kinda like the SK?My guilds raid attendance has been way down of late, so i'm shopping my Monk. I found one guild that has some promise on the server who lacks a brawler, so I sent a tell to their leader in regards to my monk. "We don't have a brawler, nor do we want one ." was his response.There was a time when I would argue this guy until the end of eternity, however sadly, I now understand why they don't want one.

Novusod

05-18-2007, 04:54 PM

<cite>Shankonia wrote:</cite><blockquote>... so I sent a tell to their leader in regards to my monk. "We don't have a brawler, nor do we want one ." was his response.There was a time when I would argue this guy until the end of eternity, however sadly, I now understand why they don't want one.</blockquote>That pretty much sums it up for brawlers. I would have loved to to have a 70 brawler that raided but I did my research and I had to face facts and build a charactor that is needed. As far as I can tell the brawler is the least usefull class in a raid and being such I consider the class "Broken."

Gungo

05-18-2007, 05:57 PM

The same can be said of crusaders as well. We are not broken as many brawlers world wide can show u. Look at sardonis in NPU, taucher in second dawn, etc etc. eveyr major guild uses brawlers . We are not recieving anything more to help us. Barring the AA wpn requirment changes. Maybe if we ar elucky the STr line will have the unarmed requirment removed and we can parse a bit higher and have a decent crushing mitigation debuff, but that is the most we will see. But back to denubis there is a big reason why thail parses higher then you. One bruiser just plays better then the other.

TheSource123

05-19-2007, 01:34 AM

<cite>Madmoon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Fearacron wrote:</cite><blockquote>i'm sorry, but i gotta agree with Deunbis on this one... sure they can put us in a good group and we can parse 1200-1500... wow.... when scouts in that same group can do far better... brawlers in general need their dps to go up because the fact is, a brawler is pure dps.... they should be just like a scout tbh, they get more avoidance cuz they are in leather and are more squishy then an actual scout.... doesnt mean that they are not pure dps. nobody wants a brawler to tank over a plate, and nobody wants a brawler to dps over a scout/mage... so what else do we got? seriously we are pure dps dunno why you would think differently</blockquote><pulls Fearacorn to the side>Listen, got a little newsflash. WE are NOT SCOUTS! We're bruisers. Yes, we can damage, but that is not our only ability. I don't want to be a scout! I am not "pure dps!" I bring a lot more to the table than mashing the same tedious six buttons in a row. We are not taken over plate tanks for pure hit-soaking and we are not taken over scouts and mages for damage output because we are not plateheads or scouts. We are bruisers! Check out Dandelize's excellent post about what we do in a raid. And that's just a start. If you want to bot the same five or six CAs, try a brigand! If you cannot stand being in the middle of some parser (and I am almost always ahead of some similarly equipped scout or mage, and behind others, so we are pretty close to the top, as is) get counseling or try a swashbuckler. If you are not getting invited to raids because you are a bruiser, join the FotM and be a wizard! But none of them can do what we can, and good groups and good guilds know it. Gungo@Crushbone wrote:"Like i said before it sucks you don't know how to play yoru character Or know how to use the tools available to play your character. Maybe one day you will learn. [sic]"It pains me, beyond all dimension, to say this, but Gungo is right. Gah! But it's true. Look at the CAs we have. I have a whole row I use only rarely except in raids, and then they're constantly being deployed. We have the CAs, the EoF/Kos AAs, that really give us the tools to shine. Use them! And for the gods' sake, stop wishing to turn us into wimpy scouts and single-purpose plates!Redmouser Bruiser, AB</blockquote>What game are you playing? Scouts tank better than us easily, w/ 2 times the DPS and group utility. And plates are not single-purposed, all tanks can DPS better than Brawlers, even Pallies. Get your facts straight, we don't need to be shoved into a class spot, we already ARE the hybrids, problem is every other class is just "Hybrid#4394348324" and you can practically list them in order of effectiveness.

Godsgift4040

05-19-2007, 04:49 PM

Gungo@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote>The same can be said of crusaders as well. We are not broken as many brawlers world wide can show u. Look at sardonis in NPU, taucher in second dawn, etc etc. eveyr major guild uses brawlers . We are not recieving anything more to help us. Barring the AA wpn requirment changes. Maybe if we ar elucky the STr line will have the unarmed requirment removed and we can parse a bit higher and have a decent crushing mitigation debuff, but that is the most we will see. But back to denubis there is a big reason why thail parses higher then you. One bruiser just plays better then the other. </blockquote>Gungo same cant be said for crusaders.....last i checked they can tank anymob in the game and are great on every avatar fight. Clearly you struggle on idenifying roles of people on raid. Such as you being in the MT group on and orange mob....Yea thail raids everyday and i sit everyraid cause you are on befallen.......what knowledge you have. Keep spitting bs because you are in a corner and have no argument nor a rational thought of why we should be on a raid over another class other then monk ;p. Last i checked sardonis been in NPU for a long time and if you ask taucher in SD or just go look at the EQ2flames monk board, he basically says that he gets to sit the most out of any class and the only real reason he gets to raid is because he shows up....not because he is desired over another class. Look at the guild strike they dont have a single main brawler, look at the guild SoN whose bruiser either sits avatars or is the DT [Removed for Content] on fear because the class is worthless. There is even more guilds out there who dont have a main brawler because we offer nothing atm that another class cant do better. All i want to see is the class get a boost of some sort because atm we are the LEAST desired class besides monk. I dont care if we get a worthwhile utility, good buffs, good debuffs, or up in dps, but clearly if the thought ww is that brawlers suck for end game raid content.....there is something wrong with the class. As always gungo when you get the time try to counter my argument, the intercede thought was pretty funny cause all tanks can do that......and at least we can reposition mobs with drag........last i checked if you have a good tank and good OT you dont need that skill.................

Gungo

05-19-2007, 05:02 PM

Odd because i talk to thail 2-3 times a week =P

Madmoon

05-20-2007, 06:04 PM

<cite>TheSource123 wrote:</cite><blockquote>What game are you playing? Scouts tank better than us easily, w/ 2 times the DPS and group utility. And plates are not single-purposed, all tanks can DPS better than Brawlers, even Pallies. Get your facts straight, we don't need to be shoved into a class spot, we already ARE the hybrids, problem is every other class is just "Hybrid#4394348324" and you can practically list them in order of effectiveness. </blockquote>"What game are you playing?" EQ2. I think you must have misposted from WoW or Vanguard, or something <shrugs.> Every scout I've ever been around turns into a little pool of goo, once the monster pulls off of me or the the platehead. If I don't start spamming the taunts, we've got a rez situation in under ten seconds. The only thing that folds faster are mages and card tables. I've seen rogues slap on a shield and play at fighter, but it's almost always only to entertain or as a lark, like when you let the healer pull.The ONLY "tank" that can approach us is a berzerker, and that only because of the crazy AoE stuff. Single opponents, not a chance. As far as a paladin or showknight ... maybe if we're AFK. Maybe.Get your facts straight. Or your game. Whichever caused the malfunction.Redmouser Bruiser, AB

TheSource123

05-20-2007, 09:25 PM

<cite>Madmoon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>TheSource123 wrote:</cite><blockquote>What game are you playing? Scouts tank better than us easily, w/ 2 times the DPS and group utility. And plates are not single-purposed, all tanks can DPS better than Brawlers, even Pallies. Get your facts straight, we don't need to be shoved into a class spot, we already ARE the hybrids, problem is every other class is just "Hybrid#4394348324" and you can practically list them in order of effectiveness. </blockquote>"What game are you playing?" EQ2. I think you must have misposted from WoW or Vanguard, or something <shrugs.> Every scout I've ever been around turns into a little pool of goo, once the monster pulls off of me or the the platehead. If I don't start spamming the taunts, we've got a rez situation in under ten seconds. The only thing that folds faster are mages and card tables. I've seen rogues slap on a shield and play at fighter, but it's almost always only to entertain or as a lark, like when you let the healer pull.The ONLY "tank" that can approach us is a berzerker, and that only because of the crazy AoE stuff. Single opponents, not a chance. As far as a paladin or showknight ... maybe if we're AFK. Maybe.Get your facts straight. Or your game. Whichever caused the malfunction.Redmouser Bruiser, AB</blockquote>Well both of us basically said the opposite of eachother, so there's no real point in arguing about it, I'm having fun playing my Bruiser, and evidently you are too. ...Oh, wait, forgot about your little WoW/Vanguard comment in there.

tanus

05-22-2007, 12:22 PM

Dear God I had to post a reply on this. I've never posted but I always get a kick out of reading my class forums. Some of you all obviously don't know how to play your class...plain and simple. A crusader out dpsing a brawler? Right...you obviously suck. I parse 1500-2200 depending on the encounter almost all the time and maybe 1100 self buffed with a crap group. Go find me a SK who can break 1400dps on a regular basis...what? Oh you cant. Whaa whaa Bruisers suck...then dont raid with one and try to make the rest of us look horrible. Bruisers can outdps any other fighter class with the exception that other people mentioned of Zerkers on certain encounters. 9/10 times I own the Zerkers dps...and thats in a group setup of Zerker/Bruiser/Dirge/Inq/Deflier/scout. Not the best setup and other then HP buff we get the same dps buffs. As for tanking...Ok there are certain mobs that leather just cant handle...people complain about fixing out class, maybe SOE should fix avoidance. Our dps is where it should be, its greater then slack rogues/mages and higher then all the other fighters. Our hps are better then nearly all other classes without any buffs on. Utility? Yeah drag is amazing, not just for positioning mobs (maybe Grovebeast add?) but for saving other classes who would get smashed without you there. Bruisers bring much to a raid...you just need to define your roll with your guild. Me? I'm dps/offtank/lifeguard/rezzer/comic relief/and the sexiest person that plays this game. Tank dies...I can and will grab the mob, someone pulls aggro...I drag it back to the tank...wipe? Yeah right Stonedeaf+FD...you go ahead and wipe. Brawlers as a class arent too fantastic, its the player that defines them. If you complain and whine about how horrible they are then obviously you have no talent. Because of people like you I need to work harder then most other raiders just so I'm taken seriously and respected. You have no idea how many times I've gotten tells like "[Removed for Content] Dralvin, you're the best Bruiser I've seen". Yeah I'm fabled and master'd, but so is the Brawler parsing 600dps. The difference is I PLAY my character. Sorry I had to rant a little bit. You all ask at what point we are going to be fixed? Well we are. The only thing that SOE absolutely NEEDS to fix is the avoidance. Granted...buffed Mr.Guardian is at 69% avoidance in defensive...buffed Mr.Dralvin is at 70% in offensive. I couldnt care less if the numbers said I was at 100% avoidance...I'd still get hit more then a plate tank. Just food for thought. Maybe concentrate your feelings for SOE to fix the basic game mechanics instead of whining about a class that is doing pretty well even after it constantly gets nerferrrrr I mean "Fixed".Ok Just my 2 cents.<a href="http://www.myspace.com/ken522" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">www.myspace.com/ken522</a> <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

ganjookie

05-22-2007, 05:38 PM

Tanus, I was with you until you said, "and the sexiest person that plays this game." Pretty much lost all cred as a bruiser right there <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> [edit: you then listed a myspace account <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> -50 DKP!!]

TheSource123

05-22-2007, 06:20 PM

Let's try comparing things! Bruiser : Other classes |as| Bows : Guns Then again, a gun is a coward's weapon <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

tt66

05-22-2007, 08:13 PM

<cite>TheSource123 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Let's try comparing things! Bruiser : Other classes |as| Bows : Guns Then again, a gun is a coward's weapon <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote> Bruiser : Other classes |as| Swiss Army Knife : Full Toolkit Sure, you can kinda use the knife to do the job you want, sorta.. but the proper tools will do the job faster and better.

Sir_Halbarad

05-22-2007, 08:47 PM

Just let me add 2 coppers. A well played and skilled bruiser adds many tools to the Raid that creates room for different strategies. We always have 1 bruiser on our raids. We may lose a bit zonewide dps. But we gain flexibility. Bruisers are a great class. They could get some love, agreed. But I am happy that I have a well played bruiser in my Raids. For what it is worth... /salute Hal

TheSource123

05-22-2007, 08:53 PM

<cite>tt66 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>TheSource123 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Let's try comparing things! Bruiser : Other classes |as| Bows : Guns Then again, a gun is a coward's weapon <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote> Bruiser : Other classes |as| Swiss Army Knife : Full Toolkit Sure, you can kinda use the knife to do the job you want, sorta.. but the proper tools will do the job faster and better. </blockquote>But what if the job was already extremely easy, thus using a full kit would be overkill? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

tt66

05-23-2007, 04:55 AM

<cite>TheSource123 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>tt66 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>TheSource123 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Let's try comparing things! Bruiser : Other classes |as| Bows : Guns Then again, a gun is a coward's weapon <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote> Bruiser : Other classes |as| Swiss Army Knife : Full Toolkit Sure, you can kinda use the knife to do the job you want, sorta.. but the proper tools will do the job faster and better. </blockquote>But what if the job was already extremely easy, thus using a full kit would be overkill? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>'Xactly. In those cases the Bruiser is a useful tool to have around, can do pretty much anything, and is full of interesting abilities that you don't have in a full kit. You're unlikely to have a specialist tool-for-getting-stones-out-of-horse-hooves or magnifiying-glass or even can-opener in your kit, for example, but a Bruiser can make it happen. Bruisers give you options that you might not otherwise have.

Junaru

05-23-2007, 03:11 PM

Well I don't know about Bruisers but my Monk lacks drag. I'm specced for Altruism but find it to be not as useful as I have hoped. 9/10 of the time the raid wipes regardless. Granted that just may be my guildies problem with recovering. I've just started raiding over the past 3 months. I've raided EL, FTH, DT (all of KOS for the most part), and a few others. With a non-DPS spec I still manage good DPS (900 to 1200 ZONE wide depending on group using both twins). My guild isn't a hard core raiding guild and for the most part they don't leave players behind because their class but will still pick who they need to win. I raid 2 or 3 times a week but after all that raiding I still feel like a warm body. I don't feel as if I do anything that would make anyone in my guild say "Wow glad Tsukuwa came along" or "Sweet, Tsukuwa is in our group". I mean if I wasn't there and they replaced me with any other class I doubt it would be noticed. I understand not every class can be the star player but I can bet on the raids I don't goto no one is saying "Too bad Tsukuwa wasn't here. He could have done [fill in skill here]". Oddly enough I have heard just that about other classes. I played a Bard in EQ so I know all about being the Jack-Of-All-Trades better then most. And I do feel the Brawler class does fit that bill a little but they lack any single ability to make then stand out. Even my Bard would do AoE resists to make him a valued player (Well we did a lot more then that but most never knew it and only seen their resists go through the roof). My Monk on the other hand just doesn't have anything like that and I think that is where we fall on our faces (FD pun there).

DisturbedMagg

05-23-2007, 03:54 PM

Altruism sounds pretty good to just read i remember trying it ages and ages ago but once i saw it had 15 mins recast once it triggered i got rid of it, also put frankly let your healers use death saves etc on top of the tanks own ones. We dont have the best DPS out there so your better DPS spec'in yourself, and depending on your guild i'd get Drag seems like a pretty much must have for ones that raid nightly, i wouldnt get rid of it.On top of that we aint broke.

Junaru

05-23-2007, 04:46 PM

Efob@Splitpaw wrote: <blockquote> We dont have the best DPS out there so your better DPS spec'in yourself, and depending on your guild i'd get Drag seems like a pretty much must have for ones that raid nightly, i wouldnt get rid of it.</blockquote> Would LOVE to get drag but sadly I'm a Monk and the best I can do is dodge 1 AoE or hit but can't use any CA's or it will cancel.. Good job SOE. <img src="/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Godsgift4040

05-23-2007, 05:57 PM

<cite>tanus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Dear God I had to post a reply on this. I've never posted but I always get a kick out of reading my class forums. Some of you all obviously don't know how to play your class...plain and simple. A crusader out dpsing a brawler? Right...you obviously suck. I parse 1500-2200 depending on the encounter almost all the time and maybe 1100 self buffed with a crap group. Go find me a SK who can break 1400dps on a regular basis...what? Oh you cant. Whaa whaa Bruisers suck...then dont raid with one and try to make the rest of us look horrible. Bruisers can outdps any other fighter class with the exception that other people mentioned of Zerkers on certain encounters. 9/10 times I own the Zerkers dps...and thats in a group setup of Zerker/Bruiser/Dirge/Inq/Deflier/scout. Not the best setup and other then HP buff we get the same dps buffs. As for tanking...Ok there are certain mobs that leather just cant handle...people complain about fixing out class, maybe SOE should fix avoidance. Our dps is where it should be, its greater then slack rogues/mages and higher then all the other fighters. Our hps are better then nearly all other classes without any buffs on. Utility? Yeah drag is amazing, not just for positioning mobs (maybe Grovebeast add?) but for saving other classes who would get smashed without you there. Bruisers bring much to a raid...you just need to define your roll with your guild. Me? I'm dps/offtank/lifeguard/rezzer/comic relief/and the sexiest person that plays this game. Tank dies...I can and will grab the mob, someone pulls aggro...I drag it back to the tank...wipe? Yeah right Stonedeaf+FD...you go ahead and wipe. Brawlers as a class arent too fantastic, its the player that defines them. If you complain and whine about how horrible they are then obviously you have no talent. Because of people like you I need to work harder then most other raiders just so I'm taken seriously and respected. You have no idea how many times I've gotten tells like "[I cannot control my vocabulary] Dralvin, you're the best Bruiser I've seen". Yeah I'm fabled and master'd, but so is the Brawler parsing 600dps. The difference is I PLAY my character. Sorry I had to rant a little bit. You all ask at what point we are going to be fixed? Well we are. The only thing that SOE absolutely NEEDS to fix is the avoidance. Granted...buffed Mr.Guardian is at 69% avoidance in defensive...buffed Mr.Dralvin is at 70% in offensive. I couldnt care less if the numbers said I was at 100% avoidance...I'd still get hit more then a plate tank. Just food for thought. Maybe concentrate your feelings for SOE to fix the basic game mechanics instead of whining about a class that is doing pretty well even after it constantly gets nerferrrrr I mean "Fixed".Ok Just my 2 cents.<a href="http://www.myspace.com/ken522" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">www.myspace.com/ken522</a> <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote>With your group, sub u for a ranger or swashy or assassin and they be parsing what 2.2k-3.7k with that group on every fight... IF your tank loses agro maybe u should get a new tank...As far for you picking up agro, the zerker in that group could do it just fine so again you are pretty worthless in that group because you are offering very [Removed for Content] dps compared to a scout in that group, offer no debuffs or buffs really what so ever, and u have a zerker there who is a better off tank then u regardless...At this point i would figure everyone would have full masters and fabled gear, last i checked u are nothing but a filler spot for another class who would be better suited for being in the raid. I like how you speak in the third person, makes me laugh. So you offer one encounter woushi as why we shoudl be in a raid? last i checked u can just have a alt bruiser for that or maybe u dont need one....because it is a pretty [Removed for Content] encounter to begin with if you have good off tank so a lot of guilds dont even have or use a bruiser...nothing for you gungo atm because again....you still havent given me a valid rational response to my question. Keep putting yourself in the MT group for orange epics, hope it works well for you and your guild.

tanus

05-23-2007, 08:50 PM

Wow man, you just have an answer for everything. Ok first off, I never said I was the best class for that group...I also never said I offtanked better then the zerker. You're just spoiling for a fight it seems. Yeah ok, my guilds MT isnt the best...but sometimes [Removed for Content] happens and a tank loses aggro...thats a prime time when drag comes in. I'm not defending my group setup or how I play my class...but you're welcome to come to my server with your bruiser and see how you hold up raiding with me...would be fun to watch. As for us being "broken" and when are we getting fixed. Ok bruiser's are an avoidance tank...[Removed for Content] dude, do you want our offensive stance to proc Ice Nova instead of a 700whatever nuke? We arent dps and we arent a guardian. If you want mega dps go roll a T1 dps class...not a brawler. Yes it isnt fun that we dont really shine at anything, I blame that on once again...the broken avoidance system SOE uses. I highlighted the wuoshi encounter as an example, if people in your guild dont like bruisers and you're taking their words to heart...then either join a new guild or roll your brawizard or whatever kind of godlike character that will make you happy to play. I've shown my guild countless times that bruisers are a useful class when played well. I'm not dps, I'm not the main offtank, but I know my class and I have and will prove that its a great class time and again.When I want to play a dps class I go play my wizard and blow things up, when I want to heal I go play my warden, when I want to feel like a bad [Removed for Content] I play my Bruiser (who is also my main character regardless). Fix avoidance and I'd be even happier with my class, we constantly get "rebalanced" and shafted..but ya know what? Our class is still fun to play and can pull of some crazy stuff.

Madmoon

05-24-2007, 11:29 AM

<cite>tanus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Wow man, you just have an answer for everything. </blockquote> But, sadly, not a clue, despite. He won't get it. I mean, it's been explained pretty thoroughly. And the funny thing is, you can see the same kind of stuff on every board. A wise poster said here once, "If you want to hate your class, go read your class boards." I visit the defiler and necromancer boards, infrequently played ALTS of mine, and it's the same thing. If they aren't whining about raid utility, they're whining how fast they get squashed once something gets on them, or whining about their AAs. We should make a separate server for all these folks and give them all two buttons: Kill_All_In_100'_Radius and Heal/Rez_All_In_100'_Radius (in case they were slow getting to button one.) Or just give them all a God-mode. But then they'd go on about how overpowered the Helaers Heal/Rez_All is in comparison to their Kill_All, and how gimped they are.I, too, wouldn't mind getting mitigation up a notch, but if it were at the expense of something else, then probably not. I think we are as close to perfect as you can get.Redmouser Bruiser, AB

TheSource123

05-24-2007, 03:57 PM

<cite>Madmoon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>tanus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Wow man, you just have an answer for everything. </blockquote> But, sadly, not a clue, despite. He won't get it. I mean, it's been explained pretty thoroughly. And the funny thing is, you can see the same kind of stuff on every board. A wise poster said here once, "If you want to hate your class, go read your class boards." I visit the defiler and necromancer boards, infrequently played ALTS of mine, and it's the same thing. If they aren't whining about raid utility, they're whining how fast they get squashed once something gets on them, or whining about their AAs. We should make a separate server for all these folks and give them all two buttons: Kill_All_In_100'_Radius and Heal/Rez_All_In_100'_Radius (in case they were slow getting to button one.) Or just give them all a God-mode. But then they'd go on about how overpowered the Helaers Heal/Rez_All is in comparison to their Kill_All, and how gimped they are.I, too, wouldn't mind getting mitigation up a notch, but if it were at the expense of something else, then probably not. I think we are as close to perfect as you can get.Redmouser Bruiser, AB</blockquote>Go check the [Removed for Content] Swashbuckler boards...you don't see ANY complaining there, you even see a post about "The Few, The Proud, The Swashtanks" GG...

PantherXX

05-24-2007, 04:03 PM

Alright ... I've gotta wade in here a little bit and help Den out.First, Gungo, Den typically out DPS's Thail in a similar group. With the perfect group setup, Denubis has hit some of the highest parses I have ever seen from a brawler. (This is not a rip on Thail AT ALL, just making the point that Den knows perfectly well how to play his class and max DPS). Second, I think a lot of you are missing the point. <ul><li>Sure, a well played brawler will out DPS other fighter classes in the right groups ... but if the raid wants DPS, bring a scout or a mage. They will DPS better and most will add buffs/debuffs or some other utility as well.</li><li>Sure, we can tank some things, but well geared plate tanks can come pretty [Removed for Content] close to our avoidance and do it sitting well past the mit soft cap. In addition, our group agro control is the weakest of all the tank classes, so picking anything other than single adds as an OT is very hard and very inefficient. A zerker or a pally with Amends on a warlock is far better.</li><li>FD may add convenience, but it won't save a fight. I love the skill, but it doesn't help you win the battle.</li><li>As Denubis said, most of those brawlers in the big guilds are legacy players. They have been around a while and still raid because they have earned the respect and friendship of their guild. I would wager that if one of them were to leave and another brawler apped to fill that spot, they would be turned away.</li><li>Itemization has really left me wanting more in EoF as well. If you want to go the DPS route, there are two weapons that offer marginally improvements over KoS loot. The set gear, for monks at least, is a mix of marginal to useless effects. The variety of plate tank gear AND weapons far exceeds that of brawlers, including a number of items with hate procs. </li><li>Both the KoS and EoF AA trees leave much to be desired. Ours typically are a mishmash of skills that provide a bit of an improvement to DPS ... although many of those AAs came at the same time they nerfed CA damage and made some other changes in our DPS. I found I was spending AA's to get my DPS back to where it was! Hell ... bruisers actually have that ridiculous Intercede line!</li></ul>We are a hybrid that stands out for nothing and lags behind even other hybrids. Furies can DPS and heal. Rouges can tank and DPS. The example of scouts pulling agro and getting owned is not valid. In that case, they are set up for DPS. If I pull agro in off. stance with DPS gear, I die fast too. We really need something that defines more of a role for us. As it is, the "self defined" roles that someone mentioned can always be filled better by another class. Hell, I would be happy if they just made us good pullers again!And to those that suggest "shut up and roll another class" ... I have spent years playing this character and it frustrates me to no end to see us stuck in such a rut. Why can I not call for a change, rather than throw out months of play time? I actually love the brawler class. I just think we need some tweaks.

PantherXX

05-24-2007, 04:07 PM

<cite>tanus wrote:</cite><blockquote>When I want to play a dps class I go play my wizard and blow things up, when I want to heal I go play my warden, when I want to feel like a bad [I cannot control my vocabulary] I play my Bruiser (who is also my main character regardless). Fix avoidance and I'd be even happier with my class, we constantly get "rebalanced" and shafted..but ya know what? Our class is still fun to play and can pull of some crazy stuff.</blockquote>Sorry for the double post but Tanus, you make our arguement for us. You play another class when you want to do something specific. When you want to be a bad [I cannot control my vocabulary] what are you doing? Soloing? Owning the parse while tanking in a group? Yup ... we can do that. But if you want to fill a raid role, you play another class. The point is not to make us uber ... the point is to give us a raison d'etre.

TheSource123

05-24-2007, 04:16 PM

<cite>PantherXX wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>tanus wrote:</cite><blockquote>When I want to play a dps class I go play my wizard and blow things up, when I want to heal I go play my warden, when I want to feel like a bad [I cannot control my vocabulary] I play my Bruiser (who is also my main character regardless). Fix avoidance and I'd be even happier with my class, we constantly get "rebalanced" and shafted..but ya know what? Our class is still fun to play and can pull of some crazy stuff.</blockquote>Sorry for the double post but Tanus, you make our arguement for us. You play another class when you want to do something specific. When you want to be a bad [I cannot control my vocabulary] what are you doing? Soloing? Owning the parse while tanking in a group? Yup ... we can do that. But if you want to fill a raid role, you play another class. The point is not to make us uber ... the point is to give us a raison d'etre.</blockquote>Nice use of French, lol

PaganSaint

05-24-2007, 05:32 PM

<cite>PantherXX wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>tanus wrote:</cite><blockquote>When I want to play a dps class I go play my wizard and blow things up, when I want to heal I go play my warden, when I want to feel like a bad [I cannot control my vocabulary] I play my Bruiser (who is also my main character regardless). Fix avoidance and I'd be even happier with my class, we constantly get "rebalanced" and shafted..but ya know what? Our class is still fun to play and can pull of some crazy stuff.</blockquote>Sorry for the double post but Tanus, you make our arguement for us. You play another class when you want to do something specific. When you want to be a bad [I cannot control my vocabulary] what are you doing? Soloing? Owning the parse while tanking in a group? Yup ... we can do that. But if you want to fill a raid role, you play another class. The point is not to make us uber ... the point is to give us a raison d'etre.</blockquote>You missed the point of his post entirely with your selective quoting. He raids his bruiser. So when he wants to fill a raid role, He plays his bruiser. When he wants to fill a different role, pure DPS or Healer, he plays a class made to do that. Poor reading comprehension on your part, isn't Tanus making your argument for you. It is you hurting your own argument.Bruiser's can be a very powerful tool on a raid when played well, but like a paladin, if they are not played well, like the majority of bruisers or paladins out there, they suck for raiding.

ganjookie

05-24-2007, 05:36 PM

HAHA All of this bickering makes me think you're all a bunch of housewives!

tt66

05-24-2007, 07:52 PM

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>PantherXX wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>tanus wrote:</cite><blockquote>When I want to play a dps class I go play my wizard and blow things up, when I want to heal I go play my warden, when I want to feel like a bad [I cannot control my vocabulary] I play my Bruiser (who is also my main character regardless). Fix avoidance and I'd be even happier with my class, we constantly get "rebalanced" and shafted..but ya know what? Our class is still fun to play and can pull of some crazy stuff.</blockquote>Sorry for the double post but Tanus, you make our arguement for us. You play another class when you want to do something specific. When you want to be a bad [I cannot control my vocabulary] what are you doing? Soloing? Owning the parse while tanking in a group? Yup ... we can do that. But if you want to fill a raid role, you play another class. The point is not to make us uber ... the point is to give us a raison d'etre.</blockquote>You missed the point of his post entirely with your selective quoting. He raids his bruiser. So when he wants to fill a raid role, He plays his bruiser. When he wants to fill a different role, pure DPS or Healer, he plays a class made to do that. Poor reading comprehension on your part, isn't Tanus making your argument for you. It is you hurting your own argument.Bruiser's can be a very powerful tool on a raid when played well, but like a paladin, if they are not played well, like the majority of bruisers or paladins out there, they suck for raiding. </blockquote>But the point is : that when you are raiding, you are filling a specific role. And in the vast majority of cases, the role of the Bruiser in a raid is DPS. And the sad fact is, that there are other classes that do DPS better than we do. So at present, there is no real reason to pick a Bruiser over (say) an additional Swashbuckler. I'm not saying we should get a DPS buff, but it would be nice to have a reason for people to want to have a Bruiser in the group, rather than just letting us in coz there is space in the raid. For example : Change "Retribution of Stone" so that, rather than it being a passive selfbuff, it's a buff that can be cast on yourself or a group/raid friend. It wouldn't change our DPS, it wouldn't change our soloing, but it would make us a little more sought after in a raid.

Madmoon

05-24-2007, 08:23 PM

The Source123 wrote:<ul><li>"Go check the [I cannot control my vocabulary] Swashbuckler boards...you don't see ANY complaining there, you even see a post about "The Few, The Proud, The Swashtanks" "</li></ul>They were also whining about their INT line being craptacular. They may whine less than others. But they all whine.PantherXX wrote: "Second, I think a lot of you are missing the point." <ul><li>"Sure, a well played brawler will out DPS other fighter classes in the right groups ... but if the raid wants DPS, bring a scout or a mage. They will DPS better and most will add buffs/debuffs or some other utility as well." The point though, is that we do bring things to a raid. Yes, if you want DPS, you get a scout, not us. If you want healing you get a healer, not a scout. That doesn't make a scout "worthless to a raid." He brings what he brings, we bring what we bring. The point is to maximize what you do bring.</li><li>"Sure, we can tank some things, but well geared plate tanks can come pretty [I cannot control my vocabulary] close to our avoidance and do it sitting well past the mit soft cap. In addition, our group agro control is the weakest of all the tank classes, so picking anything other than single adds as an OT is very hard and very inefficient. A zerker or a pally with Amends on a warlock is far better." Again, there are raids where you need the main tank to be a platehead. Be nice if our avoidance let us stand there as long and effectively as a plate does, but hey, I wouldn't even want to give up Devastation Fist for that. Maximize what you do bring.</li><li>"FD may add convenience, but it won't save a fight. I love the skill, but it doesn't help you win the battle." No, but it can prevent long messy returns. I've saved us in Permafrost with it, back when, and it made things a lot easier than fighting our way all the way back. Not a Raid, I know, and almost no (all?) raid has respawning, but still, no one made a point that Feign Death is THE reason to have us along. </li><li>"As Denubis said, most of those brawlers in the big guilds are legacy players. They have been around a while and still raid because they have earned the respect and friendship of their guild. I would wager that if one of them were to leave and another brawler apped to fill that spot, they would be turned away." I - obviously - cannot speak for every server. But most of the time, if the raid guild you belong to is that exclusionary, move on to another guild. There are more than enough around, and a quick check of four server forums at random found a raid guild recruiting on each. Besides, that sounds like a formula run, anyway. How much fun is that? Might as well quit EQ and fire up Counter Strike, or some iteration.</li><li>"Itemization has really left me wanting more in EoF as well. If you want to go the DPS route, there are two weapons that offer marginally improvements over KoS loot. The set gear, for monks at least, is a mix of marginal to useless effects. The variety of plate tank gear AND weapons far exceeds that of brawlers, including a number of items with hate procs." I'll take your word for it - I still wear MC pieces, FWIW - but I have liked the lower-end raid stuff I have so far, and I get to mix things in and out. Whatever the top pieces are, and their limitations, OK, but that really isn't germane to how we contibute to a raid. </li><li>"Both the KoS and EoF AA trees leave much to be desired. Ours typically are a mishmash of skills that provide a bit of an improvement to DPS ... although many of those AAs came at the same time they nerfed CA damage and made some other changes in our DPS. I found I was spending AA's to get my DPS back to where it was! Hell ... bruisers actually have that ridiculous Intercede line!" What this has to do with us raiding, I don't know. I don't know any KoS line that matches our STR line. If I were a new brawler, that alone makes us a great. In any case, everyone has opinions about their KoS and EoF lines, usually negative when you read the class forums. Ours are meant to complement and add flavor, not bring us to new, dizzying heights of Ueberdom. I mean, we're so nearly there, as is!</li></ul>The thing it all comes down to is laziness and insecurity, for those truly down on bruisers, and not just having a discussion. I will take any class, played well, over the Uebergeared and underskilled sorts. I have no problems getting in raids and no problems performing in raids. I am not the highest DPS - but then I am not a DPS class. I can't soak it like a platehead, but then, I am not a platehead. I am not a hybrid. I am a bruiser, a fighter, like any other fighter. If I have LFG on, and a raidrun starts shouting for DPS, and they don't contact me, I don't fret - that's ego at play, after all. When I am in a raid, I educate, if I can, by my performance and make them remember me the next time for what I do bring, even if no one thing is quantifiable as the ueberest in that skill. That's my reason for being. Well, that and fighting. And eggs. I love eggs.Redmouser Bruiser, AB

TheSource123

05-24-2007, 08:46 PM

<cite>Madmoon wrote:</cite><blockquote>The Source123 wrote:<ul><li>"Go check the [I cannot control my vocabulary] Swashbuckler boards...you don't see ANY complaining there, you even see a post about "The Few, The Proud, The Swashtanks" "</li></ul>They were also whining about their INT line being craptacular. They may whine less than others. But they all whine.PantherXX wrote: "Second, I think a lot of you are missing the point." <ul><li>"Sure, a well played brawler will out DPS other fighter classes in the right groups ... but if the raid wants DPS, bring a scout or a mage. They will DPS better and most will add buffs/debuffs or some other utility as well." The point though, is that we do bring things to a raid. Yes, if you want DPS, you get a scout, not us. If you want healing you get a healer, not a scout. That doesn't make a scout "worthless to a raid." He brings what he brings, we bring what we bring. The point is to maximize what you do bring.</li><li>"Sure, we can tank some things, but well geared plate tanks can come pretty [I cannot control my vocabulary] close to our avoidance and do it sitting well past the mit soft cap. In addition, our group agro control is the weakest of all the tank classes, so picking anything other than single adds as an OT is very hard and very inefficient. A zerker or a pally with Amends on a warlock is far better." Again, there are raids where you need the main tank to be a platehead. Be nice if our avoidance let us stand there as long and effectively as a plate does, but hey, I wouldn't even want to give up Devastation Fist for that. Maximize what you do bring.</li><li>"FD may add convenience, but it won't save a fight. I love the skill, but it doesn't help you win the battle." No, but it can prevent long messy returns. I've saved us in Permafrost with it, back when, and it made things a lot easier than fighting our way all the way back. Not a Raid, I know, and almost no (all?) raid has respawning, but still, no one made a point that Feign Death is THE reason to have us along. </li><li>"As Denubis said, most of those brawlers in the big guilds are legacy players. They have been around a while and still raid because they have earned the respect and friendship of their guild. I would wager that if one of them were to leave and another brawler apped to fill that spot, they would be turned away." I - obviously - cannot speak for every server. But most of the time, if the raid guild you belong to is that exclusionary, move on to another guild. There are more than enough around, and a quick check of four server forums at random found a raid guild recruiting on each. Besides, that sounds like a formula run, anyway. How much fun is that? Might as well quit EQ and fire up Counter Strike, or some iteration.</li><li>"Itemization has really left me wanting more in EoF as well. If you want to go the DPS route, there are two weapons that offer marginally improvements over KoS loot. The set gear, for monks at least, is a mix of marginal to useless effects. The variety of plate tank gear AND weapons far exceeds that of brawlers, including a number of items with hate procs." I'll take your word for it - I still wear MC pieces, FWIW - but I have liked the lower-end raid stuff I have so far, and I get to mix things in and out. Whatever the top pieces are, and their limitations, OK, but that really isn't germane to how we contibute to a raid. </li><li>"Both the KoS and EoF AA trees leave much to be desired. Ours typically are a mishmash of skills that provide a bit of an improvement to DPS ... although many of those AAs came at the same time they nerfed CA damage and made some other changes in our DPS. I found I was spending AA's to get my DPS back to where it was! Hell ... bruisers actually have that ridiculous Intercede line!" What this has to do with us raiding, I don't know. I don't know any KoS line that matches our STR line. If I were a new brawler, that alone makes us a great. In any case, everyone has opinions about their KoS and EoF lines, usually negative when you read the class forums. Ours are meant to complement and add flavor, not bring us to new, dizzying heights of Ueberdom. I mean, we're so nearly there, as is!</li></ul>The thing it all comes down to is laziness and insecurity, for those truly down on bruisers, and not just having a discussion. I will take any class, played well, over the Uebergeared and underskilled sorts. I have no problems getting in raids and no problems performing in raids. I am not the highest DPS - but then I am not a DPS class. I can't soak it like a platehead, but then, I am not a platehead. I am not a hybrid. I am a bruiser, a fighter, like any other fighter. If I have LFG on, and a raidrun starts shouting for DPS, and they don't contact me, I don't fret - that's ego at play, after all. When I am in a raid, I educate, if I can, by my performance and make them remember me the next time for what I do bring, even if no one thing is quantifiable as the ueberest in that skill. That's my reason for being. Well, that and fighting. And eggs. I love eggs.Redmouser Bruiser, AB</blockquote>Although you're right, you're basically proving that Bruisers are indeed a balanced class. That doesn't, however, change the fact that the game is seriously screwed up atm.

Dravendar

05-24-2007, 09:14 PM

Mylinda@Oasis wrote: <blockquote>What class can teleport an epic 30meteres near instantly? Bruiser can. Sonic Fists + Drag. Blam. Who can absorb a the main tanks ae damage without tanking damage themselve? bruiser can. Stone Deaf + Intercede. Bruisers Parse really well. Im suprised some scouts aren't upset. Again it all comes to the player. I've seen some bruisers parse 400 consistantly. I've seen some parse 1600-2000k consistantly. On a five minute fight in MIS, I parsed 1418, which was only 100 dps less then scouts in my group. You want to tear those warriors down with a beserkers whopping 1k dps? Everyone knows the best dps from a tank comes from brawlers HOLLAA!</blockquote> You present some very good points. Although I did want to point out a couple things: 1. Your dps of 1418 is commendable...although if scouts were only parsing 100 more...I would reconsider their membership in my guild. At least for my situation, I expect a range of 2k to 3k from my scouts and about what you are doing for brawler dps. Comparing 1.4k to 2-3k makes it easy for me to decide who parses very well. Bruisers are 'ok'. 2. Our past couple of zerkers were of excellent skill; being able to push out 1.8k to 2k+ parses. From what I've seen, two zerkers would be a greater asset than two bruisers in terms of pure dps numbers. Our SK makes nearly every other fighter want to reroll another toon in shame. Regardless of the kind of spin I put on the dps game, I will say that having ONE bruiser is an asset to any raid guild for the utility/dps. In terms of tanking, bruisers need a bit of help there. If there is anything to fix, I would suggest taking a look at the mechanics of deflection. If working properly, then perhaps a tweak to include an increased innate ability to deflect by 5-10%....perhaps via AA? Other than that I think bruisers are gtg.

Gungo

05-25-2007, 10:41 AM

<cite>Godsgift4040 wrote:</cite><blockquote>nothing for you gungo atm because again....you still havent given me a valid rational response to my question. Keep putting yourself in the MT group for orange epics, hope it works well for you and your guild. </blockquote>My god are you still crying. The answer is fairly simple i got my BP so i voluntarily sit so other classes can get thiers. There is a reason why thail parses higher then you its becuase you suck. I really stop responding to you becuase it was painfully obvious you don't even know how the mechinics of the class work. Your probably to stupid to realize that shrug off is not a direct % of your avodiance skill but taken from parry and deflection ONLY.

Junaru

05-25-2007, 11:00 AM

Redmouser not being rude and I'm sorry if it seems that way but you are posting around thing you don't understand. When you start raiding EoF zones (high end raids) you will see our point. FTH to make a point. This zone is all about DPS. You raid needs to put out 20k DPS zone wide just to even think about entering. Now with raids like that you want EVERY SINGLE position of your 24 players to be optimized. This is where Brawlers fall short. We don't put out enough DPS to warrant a position, we don't debuff a mob enough to warrant a position and we don't have enough utility to warrant a position. Do Brawlers raid FTH? Yes but the plain and simple fact is we are a crutch on that raid and the spot we fill would be best given to another class. What I don't understand is why people would complain about asking for more raid utility? Drag might be nice but Monks don't get it and how you are forcing anyone who wants to raid to pick that AA. Even IF there is nothing major wrong with Brawlers wouldn't it be nice to have at least ONE ability that would make a raid say "Hey lets get a Brawler for group 2 so they can have [fill in skill here]" or "We need a Brawler to debuff [insert debuff here]". I don't think anyone is asking for some game breaking utility that forces a raid to have at least one Brawler but something to prove out worthiness on a raid other then 1.4k parses.

PaganSaint

05-25-2007, 12:25 PM

Thats not really true Junaru, was bored a week or so ago and took a complete pick up raid through FTH. ZW for the raid was just under 17k DPS. Completed everything but Malkonis which is just as much as a good many guilds can accomplish. Took a good bit longer than it should have but you can do the zone. Also a good brawler, which is what everything in this thread should be based upon, in a proper group setup can put out 1600 to 1800 ZW DPS fairly easy. Higher if the group is stacked for melee DPS, lower if your guild just puts people in groups randomly if they are not in the MT group. Thats by no means holding a raid force back for that zone or any other. Is it the 3k+ a well geared ranger or wizard can produce? No. But is it that far behind what the average ZW DPS for the raid excluding healers? Not at all, its right there at the average for guilds who put out respectable DPS numbers. It is sad that you cannot see how your own class has utility outside of one ability. Others have posted what the class is capable of, and ways to combine abilities to add alot of utility to the class.

tt66

05-25-2007, 02:24 PM

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>It is sad that you cannot see how your own class has utility outside of one ability. Others have posted what the class is capable of, and ways to combine abilities to add alot of utility to the class. </blockquote>Only, they haven't. Not really. If you ignore "drag", the only utility that has been mentioned has been things like "intercede/stonedeaf" on the tank, "feigndeath/stonedeaf" to help rez, and sticking "shrug off" on the MT. The first two are neat tricks, but I'd hardly call it "a lot of utility". I have to admit I'm not really following the arguments on either side for the third, so I'm merely including it for completion purposes. But really, is there anything else? I've seen several people claiming that those of us that don't think we bring anything special to the raid are "terrible bruisers" or "don't know their class". So EDUCATE us already! I get invited along on raids because I'm a warm body that can put out fighter-level DPS, listens to the raid leader, and follow orders. The fact that I play a bruiser is almost irrelevant, the qualities that make me useful to the raid would remain no matter what class I played. So, the question remains : What does a Bruiser bring to a raid that another class wouldn't?

PantherXX

05-25-2007, 02:46 PM

Gungo@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote><cite>Godsgift4040 wrote:</cite><blockquote>nothing for you gungo atm because again....you still havent given me a valid rational response to my question. Keep putting yourself in the MT group for orange epics, hope it works well for you and your guild. </blockquote>My god are you still crying. The answer is fairly simple i got my BP so i voluntarily sit so other classes can get thiers. There is a reason why thail parses higher then you its becuase you suck. I really stop responding to you becuase it was painfully obvious you don't even know how the mechinics of the class work. Your probably to stupid to realize that shrug off is not a direct % of your avodiance skill but taken from parry and deflection ONLY. </blockquote>Dude ... you're not even reading things here. As I said, Thail doesn't out-parse him. Den has had some of the best brawler parses I have seen. Besides, we aren't supposed to be DPS classes remember? PaganSaint wrote: <blockquote>You missed the point of his post entirely with your selective quoting. He raids his bruiser. So when he wants to fill a raid role, He plays his bruiser. When he wants to fill a different role, pure DPS or Healer, he plays a class made to do that. Poor reading comprehension on your part, isn't Tanus making your argument for you. It is you hurting your own argument.Bruiser's can be a very powerful tool on a raid when played well, but like a paladin, if they are not played well, like the majority of bruisers or paladins out there, they suck for raiding.</blockquote>I respectfully disagree. He actually says that other classes file roles better. I read it as saying the only unique thing he brings is drag. You accuse me of poor reading comprehension, but he says multiple times that other class fill our potential roles better. I beleive you are mis-interpreting what he has written. He says he loves the class, but never makes a real arguement that we are a stand-out class, and never makes a concrete arguument as to why we should be in a raid. I love the class too. That's why I would like to see some improvements.As for Madmoon ... I won't go point by point to save space, but you say several times to maximize what we do bring. Absolutely, we should. But my point is that even if you maximize it, the raid spot is better spent on another class -- ESPECIALLY if the raid as a whole seeks to maximize its potential. As for changing guilds ... sure, there are plenty of guilds looking for members, but I want to play with a guild that can beat the toughest encouters in the game (Avatars and contested). Those guilds are not recruiting brawlers. As to gear and AA's, they are everything to a raid. If you don't think so, then try raiding the hardest EoF zones with only KoS gear and 50AA's. When other classes can further bolster their raid usefullness through gear, and we are more limited in our choices, it is absolutely germane. Frankly, I am stunned that you even bring up Dev. Fist and the STR AA line in a raiding discussion. You wouldn't give up Dev Fist for working epic avoidance! [Removed for Content]! "I can't soak it like a platehead, but then, I am not a platehead. I am not a hybrid. I am a bruiser, a fighter, like any other fighter."I think you just contradicted yourself in the space of 3 sentences.

PaganSaint

05-25-2007, 03:09 PM

He said that those other classes filled other roles better. IE a Bruiser isn't a pure DPS like a wizard, or a Healer like a Warden. He has those toons for those roles. Unless you are using different posts to get a different meaning from the words he used, thats what he said. If so, I'd like to see and I'll change my posts to remove the commentary.

PaganSaint

05-25-2007, 03:17 PM

<cite>tt66 wrote:</cite><blockquote> So, the question remains : What does a Bruiser bring to a raid that another class wouldn't? </blockquote> This same logic can be applied to any limited utility class. Why bring a paladin? They have by far the worst DPS and their buffs and heals are trivialized by all healers. Why bring an assassin, wizard or ranger? They bring no utility and only DPS, which all can be accomplished almost as well by other classes with far more utility. Poor argument to try and exclude a class because their utility is limited in usage, but when used greatly effective. A bruiser has more utility than any of the above in my eyes and due to the potential to be consistent 1800-2k+ parsers in melee stacked groups there is not a reason to exclude one from your raid force. Using more than one? I don't see that, I agree wholeheartedly there, unlike using multiple DPS only classes there only needs to be one bruiser to get full effect from their utility. <Edit: Other than about the paladin, I do not believe that of the pure DPS classes, bring them>

PantherXX

05-25-2007, 06:31 PM

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>tt66 wrote:</cite><blockquote> So, the question remains : What does a Bruiser bring to a raid that another class wouldn't? </blockquote> This same logic can be applied to any limited utility class. Why bring a paladin? They have by far the worst DPS and their buffs and heals are trivialized by all healers. </blockquote> Pallies actually do a very nice job of grabbing groups of adds so long as they have a good AOE Amends target. As for the straight DPS classes ... well, they offer just that ... straight up, no holds barred DPS. Well played predators should be top-of-the-parse DPS. Brawlers don't stand out at anything ... other than crusaders, I think every other class has at least one strong spot. Crusaders at least make good MT classes (not the best), so they are still a step ahead of brawlers IMO, though they could use a little attention as well. However, the fact is, they at least bring some more group buffs and other advantages that improve their overall utility.As for interpreting the other post ... I suppose we will never convince each other, as we both read our own opinion into it. However, I still cannot pick out what he claims to add to a raid other than being "kick [Removed for Content]". I really don't understand the extreme prejudice with which some people approach these threads (although to be honest, the thread title invites such responses). I DO NOT want to be the next flavor-of-the-month uber class. I DO NOT want to proc fusion in offensive stance and 5k wards in defensive stance. I am simply asking for a little more utility, with raiding in mind, that will enhance the value of the class.Pagan, I don't think I have seen a single post here that credits bruisers with any more utility than drag, a beefed up intercede, and T2 DPS ... and since I am arguing from a monk's point of view as well, we don't even get those utilities. Assuming players of equal skill, what does a brawler bring that other classes can't do better? I still have not seen a real answer to that. We are not a horribly useless, completely pointless class, but we do stand a step below virtually everyone else. I simply ask for but a cookie or two ... not the whole cookie jar!

PaganSaint

05-25-2007, 09:24 PM

Personnally I really dislike the entire idea of having a class built around the crutch of needing someone else to do their job and change targets and casting/combat modes to accomplish what the one class should be able to do by itself. I believe there are definitely good paladin's out there that I'd rather have over many other players on more ideal classes. But they are few and far between.

PaganSaint

05-25-2007, 09:25 PM

EDIT: Stupid double post

Ether

05-26-2007, 01:50 PM

long thread (a good thing) I have a bruiser level 70 that is mostly fabled, yet seldom dust him off to raid (occassional labs visit). I also have a relatively newly created level 67 Guardian.To those that are posting constructive thoughts about the deficiencies of this class, my thanks and appreciation. We desperately need some changes. I find it just really odd that anybody who has and cares about their bruiser would post anything demeaning to people saying that we have problems. Its the epitome of self defeatism. If we are going to be a dps class we need to be that and the AA trees dont really help us much. If we are going to be a tank class, let us succeed at that. The primary reason I think we are ignored is that (in our defense) we are one of the most fun classes to level up. Ive played 6 alts to 70 now, and this is by far the easiest and most enjoyable class for that task. The end game is an entirely different story.

Cocytus

05-26-2007, 03:51 PM

IMO, bruisers are about where they should be, perhaps a bit light on DPS.Monk dps > bruiser dps assuming the two are of equal gear and spell level.The reason for this? Monks get an extra haste early on that saps health over time. Bruisers don't get anything that even comes close to being that good -- they get a back attack.

Couching

05-26-2007, 05:32 PM

<cite>Cocytus wrote:</cite><blockquote>IMO, bruisers are about where they should be, perhaps a bit light on DPS.Monk dps > bruiser dps assuming the two are of equal gear and spell level.The reason for this? Monks get an extra haste early on that saps health over time. Bruisers don't get anything that even comes close to being that good -- they get a back attack.</blockquote>Monk dps > bruiser only in solo since we have extra haste. Ok, some bruisers might disagree. <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> However, if you can get buffs from group, bruiser dps > monk. The reason is simple, any well geared (including combat arts ) monk have 120-131 self haste. It's good in solo but screwed in group especially in raid. Our incredibly high self haste and diminishing return of haste means we get less benefit from group buffs. For example, the haste cap is 200 (125%) and I have 131 (about 110%+) self haste, even I get extra haste from bard, fury, illusionist or zerker, I can only benefit 15%/110% = 13%. Though, if any other class with 25 haste gear in the same group, extra 69 haste will boost their total haste at least 200%+. See the problem here? It is one of major design flaw in EQ2 and really shafted monk to the bottom of dps comparing to bruiser and other fighters in raid. Moreover, all brawlers are screwed. I have no idea why some of bruisers are happy that our brawler tree has only 18% critical hit, ZERO double attack with weapons and 8% aoe proc comparing to war tree 22% critical hit, 76% double attack with buckler and 24% AE attack from main hand. Brawlers are supposed to be top dps of all fighters and not anymore. Any dps specialized zerker or guardian is on top dps of all fighters with 85+ damage rating 1h weapon in raid and they can still tank better than brawlers. For tanking, it's easy for plate tank to get 65% mitigation and 70% avoidance in raid. Some top end guardians have even hit 75% avoidance in raid. Is it design as intended? <img src="/smilies/0320a00cb4bb5629ab9fc2bc1fcc4e9e.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Godsgift4040

05-27-2007, 03:05 AM

<cite>couching wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cocytus wrote:</cite><blockquote>IMO, bruisers are about where they should be, perhaps a bit light on DPS.Monk dps > bruiser dps assuming the two are of equal gear and spell level.The reason for this? Monks get an extra haste early on that saps health over time. Bruisers don't get anything that even comes close to being that good -- they get a back attack.</blockquote>Monk dps > bruiser only in solo since we have extra haste. Ok, some bruisers might disagree. <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> However, if you can get buffs from group, bruiser dps > monk. The reason is simple, any well geared (including combat arts ) monk have 120-131 self haste. It's good in solo but screwed in group especially in raid. Our incredibly high self haste and diminishing return of haste means we get less benefit from group buffs. For example, the haste cap is 200 (125%) and I have 131 (about 110%+) self haste, even I get extra haste from bard, fury, illusionist or zerker, I can only benefit 15%/110% = 13%. Though, if any other class with 25 haste gear in the same group, extra 69 haste will boost their total haste at least 200%+. See the problem here? It is one of major design flaw in EQ2 and really shafted monk to the bottom of dps comparing to bruiser and other fighters in raid. Moreover, all brawlers are screwed. I have no idea why some of bruisers are happy that our brawler tree has only 18% critical hit, ZERO double attack with weapons and 8% aoe proc comparing to war tree 22% critical hit, 76% double attack with buckler and 24% AE attack from main hand. Brawlers are supposed to be top dps of all fighters and not anymore. Any dps specialized zerker or guardian is on top dps of all fighters with 85+ damage rating 1h weapon in raid and they can still tank better than brawlers. For tanking, it's easy for plate tank to get 65% mitigation and 70% avoidance in raid. Some top end guardians have even hit 75% avoidance in raid. Is it design as intended? <img src="/smilies/0320a00cb4bb5629ab9fc2bc1fcc4e9e.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>Well stated. Again Gungo, you are a poor reader. It is sad when the monk from my guild states i kill on dps and u keep going with your completely fabricated story. What isnt fabricated is that you really thought u belonged in the MT group on an orange epic. ;o keep going with that one lol. I think that really discredited any argument you will ever make. It is even funnier that you think that your presence in that group allowed you to win instanced mayong easier then having a warden a coercer a fury [Removed for Content] a gaurdian inplace of u could have intercede like u did and lived with ToS in the MT group. Again, we have slightly more avoidance then plate tanks, not even close to the mitigation, the worst agro in the game, and no real utility minus drag which becomes not very useful if your MT and OT are highly talented players, and dps that is what slightly higher then zerkers and good sks and no where close to any good scout or caster. Sounds like we deserve a spot on a raid to me. If you cant see this, i am really happy for you because you will be happy with your class and everytime you raid u will feel all good and fuzzy inside because u think you actually belong there. In reality, once u find urselves 24 very talented players with the right classes, there is no reason to have a brawler main in any end game guild. To me this says that we are a broken class because there should always be a legit reason to have a class in endgame content. Being the DT [Removed for Content] for avatar of fear doesnt seem like a good enough reason to me atm ;p.Denubis Befallen

Cocytus

05-27-2007, 06:12 AM

<cite>couching wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cocytus wrote:</cite><blockquote>IMO, bruisers are about where they should be, perhaps a bit light on DPS.Monk dps > bruiser dps assuming the two are of equal gear and spell level.The reason for this? Monks get an extra haste early on that saps health over time. Bruisers don't get anything that even comes close to being that good -- they get a back attack.</blockquote>Monk dps > bruiser only in solo since we have extra haste. Ok, some bruisers might disagree. <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> However, if you can get buffs from group, bruiser dps > monk. The reason is simple, any well geared (including combat arts ) monk have 120-131 self haste. It's good in solo but screwed in group especially in raid. Our incredibly high self haste and diminishing return of haste means we get less benefit from group buffs. For example, the haste cap is 200 (125%) and I have 131 (about 110%+) self haste, even I get extra haste from bard, fury, illusionist or zerker, I can only benefit 15%/110% = 13%. Though, if any other class with 25 haste gear in the same group, extra 69 haste will boost their total haste at least 200%+. See the problem here? It is one of major design flaw in EQ2 and really shafted monk to the bottom of dps comparing to bruiser and other fighters in raid. Moreover, all brawlers are screwed. I have no idea why some of bruisers are happy that our brawler tree has only 18% critical hit, ZERO double attack with weapons and 8% aoe proc comparing to war tree 22% critical hit, 76% double attack with buckler and 24% AE attack from main hand. Brawlers are supposed to be top dps of all fighters and not anymore. Any dps specialized zerker or guardian is on top dps of all fighters with 85+ damage rating 1h weapon in raid and they can still tank better than brawlers. For tanking, it's easy for plate tank to get 65% mitigation and 70% avoidance in raid. Some top end guardians have even hit 75% avoidance in raid. Is it design as intended? <img src="/smilies/0320a00cb4bb5629ab9fc2bc1fcc4e9e.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote> Good points...but...Haste buffs being an exception, monks will make more of all outside buffs procs than bruisers.Being able to self cap your haste simply is unmatched, whereas bruisers get a small DPS mod. Monks get a large haste mod from off stance, an HP sapping haste buff, AND their group buff.Bruisers get a low proc rate heat proc from off stance, a back attack, and a small (by comparison) group dps mod.

Kainsei

05-27-2007, 12:19 PM

<cite>Cocytus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Being able to self cap your haste simply is unmatched, whereas bruisers get a small DPS mod. Monks get a large haste mod from off stance, an HP sapping haste buff, AND their group buff.Bruisers get a low proc rate heat proc from off stance, a back attack, and a small (by comparison) group dps mod.</blockquote>Yeah but bruiser CAs do a lot more damage and dragonbreath can't compare to knockout combo for burst dps.

Gungo

05-27-2007, 06:49 PM

<cite>Godsgift4040 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>couching wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cocytus wrote:</cite><blockquote>IMO, bruisers are about where they should be, perhaps a bit light on DPS.Monk dps > bruiser dps assuming the two are of equal gear and spell level.The reason for this? Monks get an extra haste early on that saps health over time. Bruisers don't get anything that even comes close to being that good -- they get a back attack.</blockquote>Monk dps > bruiser only in solo since we have extra haste. Ok, some bruisers might disagree. <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> However, if you can get buffs from group, bruiser dps > monk. The reason is simple, any well geared (including combat arts ) monk have 120-131 self haste. It's good in solo but screwed in group especially in raid. Our incredibly high self haste and diminishing return of haste means we get less benefit from group buffs. For example, the haste cap is 200 (125%) and I have 131 (about 110%+) self haste, even I get extra haste from bard, fury, illusionist or zerker, I can only benefit 15%/110% = 13%. Though, if any other class with 25 haste gear in the same group, extra 69 haste will boost their total haste at least 200%+. See the problem here? It is one of major design flaw in EQ2 and really shafted monk to the bottom of dps comparing to bruiser and other fighters in raid. Moreover, all brawlers are screwed. I have no idea why some of bruisers are happy that our brawler tree has only 18% critical hit, ZERO double attack with weapons and 8% aoe proc comparing to war tree 22% critical hit, 76% double attack with buckler and 24% AE attack from main hand. Brawlers are supposed to be top dps of all fighters and not anymore. Any dps specialized zerker or guardian is on top dps of all fighters with 85+ damage rating 1h weapon in raid and they can still tank better than brawlers. For tanking, it's easy for plate tank to get 65% mitigation and 70% avoidance in raid. Some top end guardians have even hit 75% avoidance in raid. Is it design as intended? <img src="/smilies/0320a00cb4bb5629ab9fc2bc1fcc4e9e.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>Well stated. Again Gungo, you are a poor reader. It is sad when the monk from my guild states i kill on dps and u keep going with your completely fabricated story. What isnt fabricated is that you really thought u belonged in the MT group on an orange epic. ;o keep going with that one lol. I think that really discredited any argument you will ever make. It is even funnier that you think that your presence in that group allowed you to win instanced mayong easier then having a warden a coercer a fury [I cannot control my vocabulary] a gaurdian inplace of u could have intercede like u did and lived with ToS in the MT group. Again, we have slightly more avoidance then plate tanks, not even close to the mitigation, the worst agro in the game, and no real utility minus drag which becomes not very useful if your MT and OT are highly talented players, and dps that is what slightly higher then zerkers and good sks and no where close to any good scout or caster. Sounds like we deserve a spot on a raid to me. If you cant see this, i am really happy for you because you will be happy with your class and everytime you raid u will feel all good and fuzzy inside because u think you actually belong there. In reality, once u find urselves 24 very talented players with the right classes, there is no reason to have a brawler main in any end game guild. To me this says that we are a broken class because there should always be a legit reason to have a class in endgame content. Being the DT [I cannot control my vocabulary] for avatar of fear doesnt seem like a good enough reason to me atm ;p.Denubis Befallen </blockquote>My story is not fabricated when i have seen you play on beta. And talked to people that are in your guild. I provided facts that show why in that particular fight i did help out alot more then a coercer. Which you coud not refute. You really dont know how the game works if you think we are not evne close to plate tanks in mitgation you must be poorly geared considering i can hit ~70% mitigation buffed in a tank slot. Diminishing returns sure does help. It is not less mitigation that makes us weaker tanks it is the skill sets guards have. TOS, reinforcement etc promote them as a MT. Actually i think a good zerker could out dps us if they are dps specced. consistant 2k+ on single targets and 3k+ on aoe's. While a bruiser is a 2k+ dps we really do not have a bonus on aoe's. But as i said before if you suck then of course yoru guild will use you as the DT [I cannot control my vocabulary]. If you don't then you can pretty much play anytime you want. We will not out dps scouts we will not outtank warriors. They can not and will not give us any utuility in the near future. We may get a small dps increase when lockeye removes the requirements for AA's. We might be able to debuff crushing mitigation, But thats it. If you are so useless at the class then reroll, becaue right now you're just crying and its rather pathetic. Beleive me i have fought long enough after eof was released to get us to the point we can tank at rigth now. We were massively gimepd in tanking then. Choose yoru batles becaue right now your crying like a little girl and you don't have an answer. You keep saying we are useless, yet you have not provide one reason where we can improve. I will pick up a fight when i see an issue but as long as i am producing T2 dps as a fighter, able to drag or rescue and tank an epic. Have a noticable debuff, position an npc better then any other fighter. intercede better then anyother fighter w stone deaf + heal. Able to sit in aoe's better then any other fighter. Able to ignore most stuns stilfes unlike any other figher. I really do not have an issue. If i can't make a raid i know i am missed. Somehow I can make a contribution to my guild when i raid and other brawlers in this thread. The question is why can't you?

Warthrax

05-28-2007, 06:16 AM

Brawlers are not broken just gimped, they're AA lines are ok.. but if you compare it to guard / zerker AA Lines much more Double attack and haste / dps option with the ability to tank and DPS. Brawlers are moderate DPS unless you have pretty good EoF gear, I can parse between 1300-2k during raids without any huge issue but still our tanking abilities are horrible on epics... you can have a plate style out tank and out DPS easy... So brawlers are there for what? Drag and what to die? nice.. might be nice to give em a lil bump..not really befitting to be honest so some adjustments are needed.

TheSource123

05-28-2007, 07:31 PM

<cite>Godsgift4040 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>couching wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cocytus wrote:</cite><blockquote>IMO, bruisers are about where they should be, perhaps a bit light on DPS.Monk dps > bruiser dps assuming the two are of equal gear and spell level.The reason for this? Monks get an extra haste early on that saps health over time. Bruisers don't get anything that even comes close to being that good -- they get a back attack.</blockquote>Monk dps > bruiser only in solo since we have extra haste. Ok, some bruisers might disagree. <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> However, if you can get buffs from group, bruiser dps > monk. The reason is simple, any well geared (including combat arts ) monk have 120-131 self haste. It's good in solo but screwed in group especially in raid. Our incredibly high self haste and diminishing return of haste means we get less benefit from group buffs. For example, the haste cap is 200 (125%) and I have 131 (about 110%+) self haste, even I get extra haste from bard, fury, illusionist or zerker, I can only benefit 15%/110% = 13%. Though, if any other class with 25 haste gear in the same group, extra 69 haste will boost their total haste at least 200%+. See the problem here? It is one of major design flaw in EQ2 and really shafted monk to the bottom of dps comparing to bruiser and other fighters in raid. Moreover, all brawlers are screwed. I have no idea why some of bruisers are happy that our brawler tree has only 18% critical hit, ZERO double attack with weapons and 8% aoe proc comparing to war tree 22% critical hit, 76% double attack with buckler and 24% AE attack from main hand. Brawlers are supposed to be top dps of all fighters and not anymore. Any dps specialized zerker or guardian is on top dps of all fighters with 85+ damage rating 1h weapon in raid and they can still tank better than brawlers. For tanking, it's easy for plate tank to get 65% mitigation and 70% avoidance in raid. Some top end guardians have even hit 75% avoidance in raid. Is it design as intended? <img src="/smilies/0320a00cb4bb5629ab9fc2bc1fcc4e9e.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>Well stated. Again Gungo, you are a poor reader. It is sad when the monk from my guild states i kill on dps and u keep going with your completely fabricated story. What isnt fabricated is that you really thought u belonged in the MT group on an orange epic. ;o keep going with that one lol. I think that really discredited any argument you will ever make. It is even funnier that you think that your presence in that group allowed you to win instanced mayong easier then having a warden a coercer a fury [I cannot control my vocabulary] a gaurdian inplace of u could have intercede like u did and lived with ToS in the MT group. Again, we have slightly more avoidance then plate tanks, not even close to the mitigation, the worst agro in the game, and no real utility minus drag which becomes not very useful if your MT and OT are highly talented players, and dps that is what slightly higher then zerkers and good sks and no where close to any good scout or caster. Sounds like we deserve a spot on a raid to me. If you cant see this, i am really happy for you because you will be happy with your class and everytime you raid u will feel all good and fuzzy inside because u think you actually belong there. In reality, once u find urselves 24 very talented players with the right classes, there is no reason to have a brawler main in any end game guild. To me this says that we are a broken class because there should always be a legit reason to have a class in endgame content. Being the DT [I cannot control my vocabulary] for avatar of fear doesnt seem like a good enough reason to me atm ;p.Denubis Befallen </blockquote>What the HELL are you talking about? He just said Brawlers were screwed, then you said he doesn't know how to read, and go on to tell us how Brawlers are screwed? O.o

TheSource123

05-28-2007, 07:35 PM

Gungo@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote><cite>Godsgift4040 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>couching wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cocytus wrote:</cite><blockquote>IMO, bruisers are about where they should be, perhaps a bit light on DPS.Monk dps > bruiser dps assuming the two are of equal gear and spell level.The reason for this? Monks get an extra haste early on that saps health over time. Bruisers don't get anything that even comes close to being that good -- they get a back attack.</blockquote>Monk dps > bruiser only in solo since we have extra haste. Ok, some bruisers might disagree. <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> However, if you can get buffs from group, bruiser dps > monk. The reason is simple, any well geared (including combat arts ) monk have 120-131 self haste. It's good in solo but screwed in group especially in raid. Our incredibly high self haste and diminishing return of haste means we get less benefit from group buffs. For example, the haste cap is 200 (125%) and I have 131 (about 110%+) self haste, even I get extra haste from bard, fury, illusionist or zerker, I can only benefit 15%/110% = 13%. Though, if any other class with 25 haste gear in the same group, extra 69 haste will boost their total haste at least 200%+. See the problem here? It is one of major design flaw in EQ2 and really shafted monk to the bottom of dps comparing to bruiser and other fighters in raid. Moreover, all brawlers are screwed. I have no idea why some of bruisers are happy that our brawler tree has only 18% critical hit, ZERO double attack with weapons and 8% aoe proc comparing to war tree 22% critical hit, 76% double attack with buckler and 24% AE attack from main hand. Brawlers are supposed to be top dps of all fighters and not anymore. Any dps specialized zerker or guardian is on top dps of all fighters with 85+ damage rating 1h weapon in raid and they can still tank better than brawlers. For tanking, it's easy for plate tank to get 65% mitigation and 70% avoidance in raid. Some top end guardians have even hit 75% avoidance in raid. Is it design as intended? <img src="/smilies/0320a00cb4bb5629ab9fc2bc1fcc4e9e.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>Well stated. Again Gungo, you are a poor reader. It is sad when the monk from my guild states i kill on dps and u keep going with your completely fabricated story. What isnt fabricated is that you really thought u belonged in the MT group on an orange epic. ;o keep going with that one lol. I think that really discredited any argument you will ever make. It is even funnier that you think that your presence in that group allowed you to win instanced mayong easier then having a warden a coercer a fury [I cannot control my vocabulary] a gaurdian inplace of u could have intercede like u did and lived with ToS in the MT group. Again, we have slightly more avoidance then plate tanks, not even close to the mitigation, the worst agro in the game, and no real utility minus drag which becomes not very useful if your MT and OT are highly talented players, and dps that is what slightly higher then zerkers and good sks and no where close to any good scout or caster. Sounds like we deserve a spot on a raid to me. If you cant see this, i am really happy for you because you will be happy with your class and everytime you raid u will feel all good and fuzzy inside because u think you actually belong there. In reality, once u find urselves 24 very talented players with the right classes, there is no reason to have a brawler main in any end game guild. To me this says that we are a broken class because there should always be a legit reason to have a class in endgame content. Being the DT [I cannot control my vocabulary] for avatar of fear doesnt seem like a good enough reason to me atm ;p.Denubis Befallen </blockquote>My story is not fabricated when i have seen you play on beta. And talked to people that are in your guild. I provided facts that show why in that particular fight i did help out alot more then a coercer. Which you coud not refute. You really dont know how the game works if you think we are not evne close to plate tanks in mitgation you must be poorly geared considering i can hit ~70% mitigation buffed in a tank slot. Diminishing returns sure does help. It is not less mitigation that makes us weaker tanks it is the skill sets guards have. TOS, reinforcement etc promote them as a MT. Actually i think a good zerker could out dps us if they are dps specced. consistant 2k+ on single targets and 3k+ on aoe's. While a bruiser is a 2k+ dps we really do not have a bonus on aoe's. But as i said before if you suck then of course yoru guild will use you as the DT [I cannot control my vocabulary]. If you don't then you can pretty much play anytime you want. We will not out dps scouts we will not outtank warriors. They can not and will not give us any utuility in the near future. We may get a small dps increase when lockeye removes the requirements for AA's. We might be able to debuff crushing mitigation, But thats it. If you are so useless at the class then reroll, becaue right now you're just crying and its rather pathetic. Beleive me i have fought long enough after eof was released to get us to the point we can tank at rigth now. We were massively gimepd in tanking then. Choose yoru batles becaue right now your crying like a little girl and you don't have an answer. You keep saying we are useless, yet you have not provide one reason where we can improve. I will pick up a fight when i see an issue but as long as i am producing T2 dps as a fighter, able to drag or rescue and tank an epic. Have a noticable debuff, position an npc better then any other fighter. intercede better then anyother fighter w stone deaf + heal. Able to sit in aoe's better then any other fighter. Able to ignore most stuns stilfes unlike any other figher. I really do not have an issue. If i can't make a raid i know i am missed. Somehow I can make a contribution to my guild when i raid and other brawlers in this thread. The question is why can't you? </blockquote>Excuse me for the double post. I agree w/ Gungo, partially because he's right, and partially because the guy he's arguing with quoted the wrong person. We are a harder class to play, we can do things, but it requires much more skill and knowledge. However some people like a challenge (Me/Gungo/Other people) and some people all wish they were Necroes. It's just the way things are, I guess.

Gungo

05-29-2007, 12:42 AM

We really don't have a ROLE, but what do you guys want? Seriously, we are not going to out dps scouts or outtank warriors. I also think if lockeye does revamp aa's correctly and removes all the requirements. Then we will see the main issue of unbalanced AA's (double atk) gimped for many classes. I expect lockeye will prolly remove the requirements, but reduce most classes double atk to ~20%. Which would probably place classes where they should be w dps. Rogues can duel wield and have 20% double atk. Warriors can get 20% double atk w a 1 hander or dual wield or 2 hander. Brawlers could get 20% double atk and use weapons. This is All we got to look forward too this and 1 new RoK spell. I doubt that 1 spell will be able to redesign class roles.

Junaru

05-29-2007, 11:11 AM

Gungo@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>We really don't have a ROLE, but what do you guys want? Seriously, we are not going to out dps scouts or outtank warriors. I also think if lockeye does revamp aa's correctly and removes all the requirements. Then we will see the main issue of unbalanced AA's (double atk) gimped for many classes. I expect lockeye will prolly remove the requirements, but reduce most classes double atk to ~20%. Which would probably place classes where they should be w dps. Rogues can duel wield and have 20% double atk. Warriors can get 20% double atk w a 1 hander or dual wield or 2 hander. Brawlers could get 20% double atk and use weapons. This is All we got to look forward too this and 1 new RoK spell. I doubt that 1 spell will be able to redesign class roles.</blockquote>I just want something I can do on a raid that makes me a viable option to a DPS class. Personally I don't care if it T1 DPS or some kind of utility but as of right now Monks (maybe not Bruisers) have nothing. I can't intercede/stone skin, I can't drag, I can't be the main tank (Aggro issues) and I'm not a DPS. In places like DT and HoS I trigger traps and kick flower pots. Big deal any FD class can trigger traps and kicking pots. Well thats cause every other class is better off attacking the mob over a Monk so thats what I get to do. As for the weapon requirements being removed from AA's. That has so many issues it's not even funny. Warriors, Rogues and Brawlers are going to have to have their AA's reworked for sure and maybe even some other classes. What sucks is in order to make it not over powerful you end up screwing lower level toons. If you knock dbl attack to 20% then all the toons that use the STR line because they lack fable weapons just took a big hit in DPS. Sure people like myself will gain from it but I don't want my DPS to come at the expense of others. If they leave it at 96% + 20% then there is almost no reason for a Bruiser to cast any CA's because auto attack is going to produce more DPS which ends up breaking the class again. And then it's only a matter of time before SOE nerfs up because of it. I think SOE needs to look long and hard that what they are doing. SOme classes will become far to powerful if you remove the weapon requirements.

Madmoon

05-29-2007, 12:53 PM

I am going to have to try this without all the hideous hues.

Madmoon

05-29-2007, 01:01 PM

Junaru wrote:"Redmouser not being rude and I'm sorry if it seems that way but you are posting around thing you don't understand." You are not nor does it seem that way, and it wouldn't be the first time (posting around something [I] don't understand.) Why'd you have to go point that out?!? "When you start raiding EoF zones (high end raids) you will see our point. FTH to make a point. This zone is all about DPS. You raid needs to put out 20k DPS zone wide just to even think about entering. Now with raids like that you want EVERY SINGLE position of your 24 players to be optimized. This is where Brawlers fall short. We don't put out enough DPS to warrant a position, we don't debuff a mob enough to warrant a position and we don't have enough utility to warrant a position. Do Brawlers raid FTH? Yes but the plain and simple fact is we are a crutch on that raid and the spot we fill would be best given to another class."I think that for every Bruiser brought along on a Raid out of pity or just filling a slot, there are as many brought along because of how they contribute. Following instructions, knowing your class and it's abilities and being smart gets you many reinvites. Are you being invited because you are a great guy/gal, or that you play well or are a great class? I think the three are inseparable. I don't think I would perform as well as a mage or a scout, for example. And yes, FTH might be all about DPS. So, where does that leave the troubadour, the illusionist, the paladin, the guardian, the mystic, once the main group is filled? Do they need to be fixed? Is the bruiser weak or is the zone designed so poorly that you need a specific make-up and only that make-up to succeed? Would we be fixed if we were given the ability to not take damage like a guardian, say, through avoidance instead of mitigation? What then? You still need only one guardian or bruiser. Would we be fixed then? And what if they made Kunark's raid instances all about healing and tanking, and you needed groups filled with healers and fighters, and scouts only got in because they were friends of the raid leader, would we say they need fixing? Or that they goofed on the zone design? Are the people making all DPS groups for FTH because that's the only way to succeed, or just the easiest way to succeed?"What I don't understand is why people would complain about asking for more raid utility? Drag might be nice but Monks don't get it and how you are forcing anyone who wants to raid to pick that AA. Even IF there is nothing major wrong with Brawlers wouldn't it be nice to have at least ONE ability that would make a raid say "Hey lets get a Brawler for group 2 so they can have [fill in skill here]" or "We need a Brawler to debuff [insert debuff here]". I don't think anyone is asking for some game breaking utility that forces a raid to have at least one Brawler but something to prove out worthiness on a raid other then 1.4k parses."I know the reason I don't want changes is because we are well composed now. We are succeeding now. Yes, if I knew in advance that they were going to give us a slight boost in Raid utility in some fashion without compromising all our other abilities, I would be for it. But that is a far cry from needing to be fixed. AND their history has shown that, when the developers giveth, they also taketh away. What would you like to lose for a bit more (argueably unnecessary) raid utility? And how would that trickle down to the vast, vast majority of the rest of the game, where we are just fine, if even a bit too powerful? I agree, I would not mind a raid utility that gets us in to that second group (though I think we can, already) just on that abilities merits. But couldn't almost all the classes say that?Redmouser Bruiser, AB

Kaleyen

05-29-2007, 01:36 PM

Please leave Paladins out of this. I have a hard enough time as is justifying my own existence as Paladin to myself.

Junaru

05-29-2007, 01:58 PM

<cite>Madmoon wrote:</cite><blockquote>Junaru wrote:"Redmouser not being rude and I'm sorry if it seems that way but you are posting around thing you don't understand." You are not nor does it seem that way, and it wouldn't be the first time (posting around something [I"> don't understand.) Why'd you have to go point that out?!?I pointed it out because you are saying high end raid Brawlers don't need anything yet you haven't raided in a high end zone to understand what we need. "When you start raiding EoF zones (high end raids) you will see our point. FTH to make a point. This zone is all about DPS. You raid needs to put out 20k DPS zone wide just to even think about entering. Now with raids like that you want EVERY SINGLE position of your 24 players to be optimized. This is where Brawlers fall short. We don't put out enough DPS to warrant a position, we don't debuff a mob enough to warrant a position and we don't have enough utility to warrant a position. Do Brawlers raid FTH? Yes but the plain and simple fact is we are a crutch on that raid and the spot we fill would be best given to another class."I think that for every Bruiser brought along on a Raid out of pity or just filling a slot, there are as many brought along because of how they contribute. Following instructions, knowing your class and it's abilities and being smart gets you many reinvites. Are you being invited because you are a great guy/gal, or that you play well or are a great class? I think the three are inseparable. I don't think I would perform as well as a mage or a scout, for example. And yes, FTH might be all about DPS. So, where does that leave the troubadour, the illusionist, the paladin, the guardian, the mystic, once the main group is filled? Do they need to be fixed? Is the bruiser weak or is the zone designed so poorly that you need a specific make-up and only that make-up to succeed? Would we be fixed if we were given the ability to not take damage like a guardian, say, through avoidance instead of mitigation? What then? You still need only one guardian or bruiser. Would we be fixed then? And what if they made Kunark's raid instances all about healing and tanking, and you needed groups filled with healers and fighters, and scouts only got in because they were friends of the raid leader, would we say they need fixing? Or that they goofed on the zone design? Are the people making all DPS groups for FTH because that's the only way to succeed, or just the easiest way to succeed?Pally's bring DPS indirectly. If a Pally Amends a high DPS class (lets say a Warlock) that class can go all out with little fear of pulling aggro. Thru giving the raid more DPS. Bards are like healers, they aren't there for their DPS. Bards are wanted in raids for their hate transfers, debuffs and buffs. Again these over all give DPS indirectly. Anything extra they do is a plus. Illusionist have their issues on raids also. SOE has tried to address this but they still need some love. As for a Guardian, well he would be MT over all others. If you are asking why would you not have another. Well we aren't talking about having more then one of any class on a raid. We are talking about having a reason for just one."What I don't understand is why people would complain about asking for more raid utility? Drag might be nice but Monks don't get it and how you are forcing anyone who wants to raid to pick that AA. Even IF there is nothing major wrong with Brawlers wouldn't it be nice to have at least ONE ability that would make a raid say "Hey lets get a Brawler for group 2 so they can have [fill in skill here]" or "We need a Brawler to debuff [insert debuff here]". I don't think anyone is asking for some game breaking utility that forces a raid to have at least one Brawler but something to prove out worthiness on a raid other then 1.4k parses."I know the reason I don't want changes is because we are well composed now. We are succeeding now. Yes, if I knew in advance that they were going to give us a slight boost in Raid utility in some fashion without compromising all our other abilities, I would be for it. But that is a far cry from needing to be fixed. AND their history has shown that, when the developers giveth, they also taketh away. What would you like to lose for a bit more (argueably unnecessary) raid utility? And how would that trickle down to the vast, vast majority of the rest of the game, where we are just fine, if even a bit too powerful? I agree, I would not mind a raid utility that gets us in to that second group (though I think we can, already) just on that abilities merits. But couldn't almost all the classes say that?Again you don't know what is needed on a high end raid because you haven't been on any. What you think is unnecessary others think is. I mean really, would you really take the advise of a L50 toon saying Brawlers at L70 are fine because he can do XXX and YYY at L50? No you wouldn't because he doesn't know what you know because he hasn't done it.<span style="color: #ff0000"]I get invited to raids for a few reasons but the #1 reason is because my guild would rather fail in a raid then exclude a guildie from a raid completely. This in itself has no doubt held my guild back from some raids but I'm glad they do it. Another reason is I bust my butt on raids. I have spent hours on hours testing and tuning my guy and seeing how far and hard I can push him. I've gone through logs upon logs trying to find the best raid CA order and what is worth casing and what is not. I have played with other Monks with better gear then myself and out DPSed them while in the same group. I've dueled a beaten guys with full EoF fabled gear because I understand my class. And sadly after all my hard work I still feel that in the end game the Brawler class needs some love. </blockquote>

Kaleyen

05-29-2007, 02:15 PM

<cite>Junaru wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>Pally's bring DPS indirectly. If a Pally Amends a high DPS class (lets say a Warlock) that class can go all out with little fear of pulling aggro. </blockquote></blockquote>Warlocks should be in the mage group with a troub and the Paladin should not be taking up a spot in the mage group. If there is no troub on the raid then yes that's true.

Junaru

05-29-2007, 04:31 PM

Liluk@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>Junaru wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>Pally's bring DPS indirectly. If a Pally Amends a high DPS class (lets say a Warlock) that class can go all out with little fear of pulling aggro. </blockquote></blockquote>Warlocks should be in the mage group with a troub and the Paladin should not be taking up a spot in the mage group. If there is no troub on the raid then yes that's true. </blockquote>Doesn't change the fact that the Pally could put Amends on ANY high DPS class and let that DPS class run wild and still increasing the over all DPS of the raid. That alone give a Pally a place in a raid even if he's not MT or ST.

Madmoon

05-29-2007, 06:46 PM

Whatever points you may have, couching, get lost when you circumvent the language filter like some vocabulary challenged adolescent.

Madmoon

05-29-2007, 07:10 PM

Junaru - the Java ate my post. What I WROTE was "You are not rude, and as far as posting "when I don't know what I'm talking about," I was only asking why you had to point that out, as if you were some bully at the beach. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I used brackets, which made it think it was some kind of HTML code, blowing up whatever humor I tried to inject. You are right, the issues you have at the very high end of the game, where everyone is Fabled/Legendary in every slot, and the raid zones at that end, those issues are not my issues. But that does relate to what I have said. If only the highest end-game raids are not bruiser-friendly, but every other raid is, plus all the small raids and group instances and dungeons, plus all the duo/trio content, plus all the solo/outdoor content... pant, pant.. I mean, what percentage of the content is broken for bruisers?If the high-high-end raids are the only thing we are discussing, I will leave you, Thail, and Gungo to hash it out. Me, I am going to go on my foolishly-satisfied-with-bruiserdom way. Remember to punch 'em when they aren't looking, and punch 'em even harder if they are!Redmouser Bruiser, AB

Gungo

05-29-2007, 07:20 PM

Btw to say the truth monks are more messed up then brusiers. stone deaf > a weak ward, closed mind is huge w the amount of stuns in raids. Drag is a utility that monks dont have and the lack of a focus on eof set gear is horrid. Let it be a tank or dps specialized gear, not both because they weaken its value. In fact the only thing i like abotu monks over brusiers currently is the heal other on the heal, but then again i would not double my recast for that. Another thing people really dont apprecaite our off stance compared to monks. Its an added value you can not get buffed. I am usually raid buffed to ~100% haste (easily w the phh helm or agi jewerly ring) . I dont need more haste but i am able to add a large dam proc to myself through my off stance. Like i said if lockeye fixes kos aa's like he should then we would end up w a small % of double atk w wpns and we will see a reduction in double atks for warriors and rogues. Which will give brawlers more dps then warriors and closer to rogues as we should have always been.

Couching

05-29-2007, 09:46 PM

<cite>Madmoon wrote:</cite><blockquote>Whatever points you may have, couching, get lost when you circumvent the language filter like some vocabulary challenged adolescent. </blockquote>/yawn, that's your point of brawler class? you should get lost first and bye.

Couching

05-29-2007, 10:35 PM

Gungo@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>Btw to say the truth monks are more messed up then brusiers. stone deaf > a weak ward, closed mind is huge w the amount of stuns in raids. Drag is a utility that monks dont have and the lack of a focus on eof set gear is horrid. Let it be a tank or dps specialized gear, not both because they weaken its value. In fact the only thing i like abotu monks over brusiers currently is the heal other on the heal, but then again i would not double my recast for that. Another thing people really dont apprecaite our off stance compared to monks. Its an added value you can not get buffed. I am usually raid buffed to ~100% haste (easily w the phh helm or agi jewerly ring) . I dont need more haste but i am able to add a large dam proc to myself through my off stance. Like i said if lockeye fixes kos aa's like he should then we would end up w a small % of double atk w wpns and we will see a reduction in double atks for warriors and rogues. Which will give brawlers more dps then warriors and closer to rogues as we should have always been.</blockquote>Indeed, monk is messed up more than bruiser on itemizations such as EoF fabled class suit. It's stupid to raise mitigation on our offensive stance rather than on our defensive stance. However, for monk/bruiser CA and monk/bruiser tree, bruiser and monk are about same in my opinion. 5k magic shield for every 1 minute is very useful in high end raids. With master evasive, monk can evade or absorb AoE every 30 sec. Besides, with tsunami, monk is better than bruiser as emergency tank. Rescue and tsunami, it gives your raid some extra time for recovery. For healing, bruiser has half reuse time of monk. Though, I rarely use heal on me. I used it with intercede on MT mostly. Overall, monk or bruiser have similar role in raid. By the way, I think you forgot to mention the aggro management issue of brawler. That's the worst part for brawler as off tank in raid. Seriously, if brawler can lock down multiple mobs as good as other plate tank, at least we can be useful in high end raid as avatars. At the moment, we are not a solid off tank in high end raids since we have problem to lock down multiple mobs.

Novusod

05-30-2007, 05:02 AM

Gungo@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>We really don't have a ROLE, but what do you guys want? Seriously, we are not going to out dps scouts or outtank warriors. I also think if lockeye does revamp aa's correctly and removes all the requirements. Then we will see the main issue of unbalanced AA's (double atk) gimped for many classes. I expect lockeye will prolly remove the requirements, but reduce most classes double atk to ~20%. Which would probably place classes where they should be w dps. Rogues can duel wield and have 20% double atk. Warriors can get 20% double atk w a 1 hander or dual wield or 2 hander. Brawlers could get 20% double atk and use weapons. This is All we got to look forward too this and 1 new RoK spell. I doubt that 1 spell will be able to redesign class roles.</blockquote>Actually you guys just need to think outside the box. Adding a little more DPS or a little better tanking is not going to fix Bruisers. Bruisers do Not need more DPS. I shelved my bruiser a long time ago and leveled up a Troubador instead because despite speemingly being the most gimped class on paper troubs are really the most in demand class sought by raiding guilds. So from my perspective of seeing what raiding guilds want here is what I suggest to fix bruisers: * Make Stone Deaf a group (AE) protection; Monks would get a group (AE) version of Tsunami * Give Bruisers and Monks an AoE version of interceed Brawlers are suposed to be crowd protectors yet they offer very little in the form of protection. This will give them the tools needed to protect their groups. Will this let bruisers out dps scouts? Nope. Will this let bruisers out tank the plate wearers? Nope again. Will this make bruisers be in high demand for raids? Absolutely. You see bruisers just need a role and beleive me even one spell can change the world.

firedawg9

05-30-2007, 09:52 AM

When Gungo said he parses 2k-3k consistantly I pretty much cant take him seriously anymore. Maybe if your raiding tier 6 zones I buy this. In the perfect set up I would challenge any Bruiser to hit these numbers every fight. I can see it every once in awhile on trash but I dont see it on EoF encounters that arent multi group unless ko combinations is up. Its tough for a scout or caster to put up those numbers your claiming on a consistant basis. When you say consistant I figure you mean every fight. I would expect a zone wide 2500 from you with what you claim which I dont believe for a second. Like the person above me, I dont think Bruisers or Monks need to be higher dps. I feel they just need to offer more in the realm of group buffs. The example with the group stone deaf is excellent. That would make us worthwhile to have on a raid over a fourth Brigand (who ironically if tank specced probably holds there own in the tanking department to a bruiser and offers dispatch). The other one I think would be nice is to raise our dps buff. It would make everyone in the group better. Right now we offer very little to a group as far as buffs go. If you look what other tanks give to a group as far as buffs then you will realize brawlers are lacking bigtime in that department. Right now Zerkers offer alot more to a group in buffs, tank much better, and are probably a little better on dps once there geared out in EoF. Right now in my guild our main bezerker is an absolute beast and its getting harder and harder to stay ahead of him on the parses.

Junaru

05-30-2007, 11:06 AM

<cite>couching wrote:</cite><blockquote>Gungo@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>Btw to say the truth monks are more messed up then brusiers. stone deaf > a weak ward, closed mind is huge w the amount of stuns in raids. Drag is a utility that monks dont have and the lack of a focus on eof set gear is horrid. Let it be a tank or dps specialized gear, not both because they weaken its value. In fact the only thing i like abotu monks over brusiers currently is the heal other on the heal, but then again i would not double my recast for that. Another thing people really dont apprecaite our off stance compared to monks. Its an added value you can not get buffed. I am usually raid buffed to ~100% haste (easily w the phh helm or agi jewerly ring) . I dont need more haste but i am able to add a large dam proc to myself through my off stance. Like i said if lockeye fixes kos aa's like he should then we would end up w a small % of double atk w wpns and we will see a reduction in double atks for warriors and rogues. Which will give brawlers more dps then warriors and closer to rogues as we should have always been.</blockquote>Indeed, monk is messed up more than bruiser on itemizations such as EoF fabled class suit. It's stupid to raise mitigation on our offensive stance rather than on our defensive stance. However, for monk/bruiser CA and monk/bruiser tree, bruiser and monk are about same in my opinion. 5k magic shield for every 1 minute is very useful in high end raids. With master evasive, monk can evade or absorb AoE every 30 sec. Besides, with tsunami, monk is better than bruiser as emergency tank. Rescue and tsunami, it gives your raid some extra time for recovery. For healing, bruiser has half reuse time of monk. Though, I rarely use heal on me. I used it with intercede on MT mostly. Overall, monk or bruiser have similar role in raid. By the way, I think you forgot to mention the aggro management issue of brawler. That's the worst part for brawler as off tank in raid. Seriously, if brawler can lock down multiple mobs as good as other plate tank, at least we can be useful in high end raid as avatars. At the moment, we are not a solid off tank in high end raids since we have problem to locked multiple mobs. </blockquote>Sure the ward is nice & very useful and tsunami is a life saver but sadly thanks to KoS AA trees it's no longer unique to Monks (Warriors have a form of it but not as good) The AoE master evevasion is not what it's cracked up to be. Understand that it last 10 second and takes one hit for the Monk... BUT we can not use ANY abilities while it's on or it will drop. Now if it lasted 10 seconds and let me use my abilities then it would be a good AA. I have it but only cause there isn't anything else worth getting in my Monk tree. Combination is a joke and why would I want a detaunt when I could just get Mongoose stance and have it passive. Why give me THREE ways to deaggro(not including FD) a mob if you don't want me to be a DPS class? Aggro is a huge problem for the Brawler class. Every other tank has some form of passive taunt except the Brawler. They have a lot of taunts and AoE taunts. For a Monk to tank is requires a lot of work and God forbid you have a Warlock in your group with M1/M2 group nukes. Not saying Brawlers can't tank. It's just so much work to do it and when I see a Guardian do it with little effort it makes me wonder. Redmouser I believe most of us are talking about EoF raids when we say a Brawler has no role. With people hitting 70/100 zones like Labs and such are really trivial anymore. Even for an entry level raiding guild they don't offer the challenge they once did so you can get away with having some classes. In places like FTH where when you walk in the door you are faced with 3 epic(x4) L74 mobs it makes you rethink every position in the raid. While it may seem we are talking about a small percent of the game these zones are not the absolute end game. They are just normal x4 EoF raid zones. While you might call it "High-High-End" game some of us just call it normal raids. It's simply the latest expansion pack raids.

Gungo

05-30-2007, 07:22 PM

<cite>firedawg911 wrote:</cite><blockquote>When Gungo said he parses 2k-3k consistantly I pretty much cant take him seriously anymore. Maybe if your raiding tier 6 zones I buy this. In the perfect set up I would challenge any Bruiser to hit these numbers every fight. I can see it every once in awhile on trash but I dont see it on EoF encounters that arent multi group unless ko combinations is up. Its tough for a scout or caster to put up those numbers your claiming on a consistant basis. When you say consistant I figure you mean every fight. I would expect a zone wide 2500 from you with what you claim which I dont believe for a second. </blockquote> Do me a favor and find this qoute where i have claimed 3k parses or 2.5k zone wides, because they don't exsist. Gp ahead and look through my entire post history. I NEVER said that. Right now i am parsing 1500-1700 w individual parses up to 2k. 1500-1700 can be done in EOF. If you can't then you seriosuly need to reevalute your gear or play style. I think the closest i have said to the above is i would expect a bruiser to be able to hit 2k+ zone wide with the right gear (robe of battle, stone of power, mayong fist) in a normal dps group (read: dirge, inquisitor etc).

Godsgift4040

05-31-2007, 02:51 AM

Gungo@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote><cite>Godsgift4040 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>couching wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cocytus wrote:</cite><blockquote>IMO, bruisers are about where they should be, perhaps a bit light on DPS.Monk dps > bruiser dps assuming the two are of equal gear and spell level.The reason for this? Monks get an extra haste early on that saps health over time. Bruisers don't get anything that even comes close to being that good -- they get a back attack.</blockquote>Monk dps > bruiser only in solo since we have extra haste. Ok, some bruisers might disagree. <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> However, if you can get buffs from group, bruiser dps > monk. The reason is simple, any well geared (including combat arts ) monk have 120-131 self haste. It's good in solo but screwed in group especially in raid. Our incredibly high self haste and diminishing return of haste means we get less benefit from group buffs. For example, the haste cap is 200 (125%) and I have 131 (about 110%+) self haste, even I get extra haste from bard, fury, illusionist or zerker, I can only benefit 15%/110% = 13%. Though, if any other class with 25 haste gear in the same group, extra 69 haste will boost their total haste at least 200%+. See the problem here? It is one of major design flaw in EQ2 and really shafted monk to the bottom of dps comparing to bruiser and other fighters in raid. Moreover, all brawlers are screwed. I have no idea why some of bruisers are happy that our brawler tree has only 18% critical hit, ZERO double attack with weapons and 8% aoe proc comparing to war tree 22% critical hit, 76% double attack with buckler and 24% AE attack from main hand. Brawlers are supposed to be top dps of all fighters and not anymore. Any dps specialized zerker or guardian is on top dps of all fighters with 85+ damage rating 1h weapon in raid and they can still tank better than brawlers. For tanking, it's easy for plate tank to get 65% mitigation and 70% avoidance in raid. Some top end guardians have even hit 75% avoidance in raid. Is it design as intended? <img src="/smilies/0320a00cb4bb5629ab9fc2bc1fcc4e9e.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>Well stated. Again Gungo, you are a poor reader. It is sad when the monk from my guild states i kill on dps and u keep going with your completely fabricated story. What isnt fabricated is that you really thought u belonged in the MT group on an orange epic. ;o keep going with that one lol. I think that really discredited any argument you will ever make. It is even funnier that you think that your presence in that group allowed you to win instanced mayong easier then having a warden a coercer a fury [I cannot control my vocabulary] a gaurdian inplace of u could have intercede like u did and lived with ToS in the MT group. Again, we have slightly more avoidance then plate tanks, not even close to the mitigation, the worst agro in the game, and no real utility minus drag which becomes not very useful if your MT and OT are highly talented players, and dps that is what slightly higher then zerkers and good sks and no where close to any good scout or caster. Sounds like we deserve a spot on a raid to me. If you cant see this, i am really happy for you because you will be happy with your class and everytime you raid u will feel all good and fuzzy inside because u think you actually belong there. In reality, once u find urselves 24 very talented players with the right classes, there is no reason to have a brawler main in any end game guild. To me this says that we are a broken class because there should always be a legit reason to have a class in endgame content. Being the DT [I cannot control my vocabulary] for avatar of fear doesnt seem like a good enough reason to me atm ;p.Denubis Befallen </blockquote>My story is not fabricated when i have seen you play on beta. And talked to people that are in your guild. I provided facts that show why in that particular fight i did help out alot more then a coercer. Which you coud not refute. You really dont know how the game works if you think we are not evne close to plate tanks in mitgation you must be poorly geared considering i can hit ~70% mitigation buffed in a tank slot. Diminishing returns sure does help. It is not less mitigation that makes us weaker tanks it is the skill sets guards have. TOS, reinforcement etc promote them as a MT. Actually i think a good zerker could out dps us if they are dps specced. consistant 2k+ on single targets and 3k+ on aoe's. While a bruiser is a 2k+ dps we really do not have a bonus on aoe's. But as i said before if you suck then of course yoru guild will use you as the DT [I cannot control my vocabulary]. If you don't then you can pretty much play anytime you want. We will not out dps scouts we will not outtank warriors. They can not and will not give us any utuility in the near future. We may get a small dps increase when lockeye removes the requirements for AA's. We might be able to debuff crushing mitigation, But thats it. If you are so useless at the class then reroll, becaue right now you're just crying and its rather pathetic. Beleive me i have fought long enough after eof was released to get us to the point we can tank at rigth now. We were massively gimepd in tanking then. Choose yoru batles becaue right now your crying like a little girl and you don't have an answer. You keep saying we are useless, yet you have not provide one reason where we can improve. I will pick up a fight when i see an issue but as long as i am producing T2 dps as a fighter, able to drag or rescue and tank an epic. Have a noticable debuff, position an npc better then any other fighter. intercede better then anyother fighter w stone deaf + heal. Able to sit in aoe's better then any other fighter. Able to ignore most stuns stilfes unlike any other figher. I really do not have an issue. If i can't make a raid i know i am missed. Somehow I can make a contribution to my guild when i raid and other brawlers in this thread. The question is why can't you? </blockquote>Fabrication seems to be the only thing you are talented at gungo. Gungo please dont post on this forum if u make things up. I have never played beta.....so hard to imagine u have seen me on there. 2nd off you dont talk to anyone in clan of shadows. The monk in clan of shadows even post on this very forum and said you didnt know what u were talking about and out right refuted your story of trying to discredit me. You say we are the best class to intercede? what about a gaurdian with tower of stone? or group intercede ability? wouldnt they be better intercedes then u? [Removed for Content] why not an sk they with the reaver line get get their health up fuckin fast, self wards, have more mitigation, pretty much the same amount of health, and can cast group stun immunity to say we are the best intercede class even if we are we arent above other classes by much if at all...How the [Removed for Content] can we position a mob better then any other tank? do your tanks suck? The only jobs for a MT are what positioning and agro? if your tank cant position a mob find a new tank. honestly it isnt hard. I would say gaurdians are better positioners then us cause they get fuckin TOS which last i checked is better for positioning any mob then what we have. U can hit 7k mitigation which is about the 70% u quoted which means u are basically using calloused skin? how is ur agro there when u are stunned, having one taunt, and cant build hate through dps and attacking the mob? if that is with urchin then [Removed for Content] kind of argument is that? any plate tank can have more mitigation then you with that buff and do you really want to sacrifice a fury for that temp buff? Plus any zerker or gaurd can hit that depending on gear with their temp buff and not be stunned like we are...............So far you have proved u can hit 7k mitigation stunned, you can make up stories like how u have seen me play...., your solution to an orange delvling mob is to have a bruiser in the MT group, instead of a warden. By your same logic a gaurdian could have replaced u in the MT group because ours has 70% avoidance, 14k some odd health, can give them the mitigation temp buff, tos intercede any hit unlike ours that is only magical, and group intercede giving them another intercede on the tank... It is sad when you resort to flat out lieing to try to make points... I have loved the bruiser for a long time but [Removed for Content] you want me to do when our raid purpose dies? If you have good tanks drag becomes pretty useless tool and i havent seen a decent argument other then that an intercede for having us around. I guess though if you want sub par dps, one debuff, one dps mod which btw is the easiest damage modifier to pump with the adornments and dps items atm, and poor agro control tank i guess we are the best class for the job. Otherwise you might want to bring a different tool for the task which is why some of the furthest guilds in the game dont have a main brawler cause we are almost entirely useless.btw whoever said i mis quoted someone you should check my original topic. The person was argueing we need a boost which goes in line with my original post, "when are we going to get fixed?" when i say fixed i mean a boost of some type, whether it is dps, buffs, debuffs, better tanking ability, or some type of useful utility.

ganjookie

05-31-2007, 08:56 PM

first!

Gungo

05-31-2007, 11:41 PM

My god your a whiny little [Removed for Content] look there was a denubis bruiser in EOF beta in a guild called lab rats. Although to tell the truth he wasn't as whiny as you seem to be. I do talk to COS members. You seem to make up more [Removed for Content] then i do. Getting ~70% mit is not that hard. Its as easy as having a crusader or conj in group. NO urchin or stun mit needed. The diminishing return curve and having 25% def stance helps that alot.

Couching

06-01-2007, 02:29 AM

Gungo@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>My god your a whiny little [Removed for Content] look there was a denubis bruiser in EOF beta in a guild called lab rats. Although to tell the truth he wasn't as whiny as you seem to be. I do talk to COS members. You seem to make up more [I cannot control my vocabulary] then i do. Getting ~70% mit is not that hard. Its as easy as having a crusader or conj in group. NO urchin or stun mit needed. The diminishing return curve and having 25% def stance helps that alot.</blockquote>The mitigation boost from conj or crusader is just 300-400. To get 70% mitigation, you need 8k mitigations. I was curious how could a bruiser get 8k mitigations without urchin or stun mit buff. Though, I don't really know every skill of bruiser, I am not going to say it's impossible but I am really curious.

firedawg9

06-01-2007, 08:43 AM

Gungo@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote><cite>firedawg911 wrote:</cite><blockquote>When Gungo said he parses 2k-3k consistantly I pretty much cant take him seriously anymore. Maybe if your raiding tier 6 zones I buy this. In the perfect set up I would challenge any Bruiser to hit these numbers every fight. I can see it every once in awhile on trash but I dont see it on EoF encounters that arent multi group unless ko combinations is up. Its tough for a scout or caster to put up those numbers your claiming on a consistant basis. When you say consistant I figure you mean every fight. I would expect a zone wide 2500 from you with what you claim which I dont believe for a second. </blockquote> Do me a favor and find this qoute where i have claimed 3k parses or 2.5k zone wides, because they don't exsist. Gp ahead and look through my entire post history. I NEVER said that. Right now i am parsing 1500-1700 w individual parses up to 2k. 1500-1700 can be done in EOF. If you can't then you seriosuly need to reevalute your gear or play style. I think the closest i have said to the above is i would expect a bruiser to be able to hit 2k+ zone wide with the right gear (robe of battle, stone of power, mayong fist) in a normal dps group (read: dirge, inquisitor etc). </blockquote>Well I must of misread just skimming through all of this. I apologize if I misinterpeted what you said. I agree 1500-1700 is about average while hitting over 2k is reasonable in certain situations.

Ether

06-06-2007, 05:49 AM

Really hate how these posts spiral into conflict. This thread actually is fairly well represented by intelligent players, which is in contrast to some of the original bruiser complaint threads that were quickly infiltrated by dudes. Gungo has always had well thought out posts but that said, I do agree with others that Gungos stats are really at the upper extreme. 70% mitigation is really really hard to get. Parsing 1500 on any extended fight also desperately requires maxxed dps and haste buffs.Self hasted and self dps increased I can get = 25 dps (self buff) + 10dps (neck adorn) + 10dps (ranged slot) + 25 haste (cloak of flames) + 28 haste (acrylia ring) + 25 dps (acrylia ring). Dont quote me on the numbers (may be off on a few). Thats pretty good mods, but the problem is its unlikely that you will be getting more from a group. Dirge is in the MT group, troub and chanter are in the caster group. This leaves you with maybe a fury you can beg for agitate. I fight with KoS fabled hands (fists of bashing + calamity). My auto-attack dps is usually 400-500 with this set up. I dusted off my bruiser for a couple KoS raids the other week, and was abysmally shocked with a raid wide parse of 700 dps. Spiked at 2100 on the stair encounter down to Vilucidae (savage bruising is pretty much the only way to get this). There still just isnt any strong reason for me to raid with my bruiser.

Ganeden

06-06-2007, 08:21 AM

I'm so sick of typeing long drawn out answers on these threads, I've been doing it for what seems like a year now and nothing has changed, I don't even know what to say anymore I think all the possible ideas are already out there and it's pretty simple what needs to happen. We need better DPS or ALOT BETTER utility. The DPS hierarchy looks like this for fighters:BerserkerGuardianShadowknightBruiserMonkPaladinWhen it should look like thisBruiserMonkShawdowknightPaladinBerserkerGuardianI was looking around at other forums to see what fighters were thinking about their classes and I came across a thread in the Guardians board about what they were looking foward to in Kunark. The thread devolved into rants about what they thought they were missing, but in the end practically everyone on the thread agreed and Brawlers needed the most love of the fighter archtype. This thread was like 8 pages long, seriously go check it out, everyone knows how pathetic we are.But in the end, the thread title says it all and there's not much more to debate;"At What Point Are We Going to Get Fixed?"

Ganeden

06-06-2007, 08:33 AM

double post

Gungo

06-06-2007, 10:27 AM

I was a little high on my mit figure (was at work) but it is still a minimal difference between plates and brawlers. It is still ~65% thats just the way it is buffed. avodiance is effectively capped at 75%+ and dps zoen wides are capable of 1500+ in a normal dps group of Inqusitor and dirge. But we do need more dps (inrelation to other fighters) and something else liek aoe rescue. The problem with this thread it became an individual rant and was not constructive. Mitigation is not going to make the difference. It is the skill sets such as tower of stone, reiforcements, insolete gibe etc. We just dotn have the avoidance or agro skills.

Junaru

06-06-2007, 04:08 PM

I think we are all saying the same thing (minus a few people) we are just not sure what we need to be "fixed". I personally don't see us ever becoming a good raid tank. Unless SOE makes a raid zone where every mob comes single so we can keep aggro, swings really slow & hits for 100% health and the only viable tank is an avoidance tank. But even then our avoidance isn't that much higher then other tanks.

Supp

06-06-2007, 06:24 PM

<cite>Ganeden wrote:</cite><blockquote> I'm so sick of typeing long drawn out answers on these threads, I've been doing it for what seems like a year now and nothing has changed, I don't even know what to say anymore I think all the possible ideas are already out there and it's pretty simple what needs to happen. We need better DPS or ALOT BETTER utility. The DPS hierarchy looks like this for fighters:BerserkerGuardianShadowknightBruiserMonkPaladinWhen it should look like thisBruiserMonkShawdowknightPaladinBerserkerGuardianI was looking around at other forums to see what fighters were thinking about their classes and I came across a thread in the Guardians board about what they were looking foward to in Kunark. The thread devolved into rants about what they thought they were missing, but in the end practically everyone on the thread agreed and Brawlers needed the most love of the fighter archtype. This thread was like 8 pages long, seriously go check it out, everyone knows how pathetic we are.But in the end, the thread title says it all and there's not much more to debate;"At What Point Are We Going to Get Fixed?" </blockquote>Wow Gan, very cool post. I was like "Oh boy, another pedantic tirade couched in intelligent verbage!"But then, I couldnt find myself agreeing more. Ive always had a tough time identifying what I found dissatisfying about my bruiser. He was once a monk that got uberized in the betrayal, so that helped, but still something was still missing. He can do all kinds of cool things that no one else can do, but it is true that he is almost fully mastered and fabled. And not crap fabled, but really good fabled. His ability to do things was dependent on that fabled gear, but yet no one wanted him on raids, not really. If he's not a raid character, why should he get fabled? If he cant get fabled, then suddently he cant do all those cool things. Hmm.I dont have survivability problems, but you know, something still isnt right. And your post hit it for me. We should have the highest dps of the fighters. That's part of the tradeoff right? Brawlers specialize in kicking butt, which should be reflected in our numbers. Crusaders are spell casters, so I expect them to have some noteworthy DPS. I expect Warriors to have crap dps. They are the thickest of the bricks. They arent fast. They arent smart. They are there to SOAK IT UP, not do that while dishing it out. The situation with berserkers is just so wrong.

Madmoon

06-06-2007, 08:29 PM

<cite>Ganeden wrote:</cite><blockquote>The DPS hierarchy looks like this for fighters:BerserkerGuardianShadowknightBruiserMonkPaladinWhen it should look like thisBruiserMonkShawdowknightPaladinBerserkerGuardian</blockquote> I said I wasn't going to comment on this thread anymore, since it seems to be driven by the Ueber-bruisers ("it is true that he is almost fully mastered and fabled. And not crap fabled, but really good fabled." - Supple, you slay me. If you are on AB, send me your "crap" fabled, please! I promise to beat a monk up with it in your name!) But this is somewhat accurate. I mean, within our class, guardians and berserkers are far better than us at holding agro and being a platehead (obviously.) Paladins and shadowknights can't do the agro bit as well as the warriors, but still have the plate to take a soaking. So we should at least out-something warriors and crusaders. Yet berserkers can do as much damage as we can, at least in group encounters, and certainly shadowknights can come close. Shadowknights' and paladins' agro management is about the same as ours, but Zerks and Guadians absolutely own the rights to that aspect. Which leaves us where?I still don't buy that we're broken. But that list is a powerful argument in itself.Redmouser Bruiser, AB

Couching

06-06-2007, 09:06 PM

nm..i have deleted what I have posted. Though, zerker can deal a lot more damages than brawler. Actually, zerker has already out damage assassin and brig in multiple encounters not to say brawler.

PaganSaint

06-06-2007, 09:32 PM

<cite>Ganeden wrote:</cite><blockquote> I'm so sick of typeing long drawn out answers on these threads, I've been doing it for what seems like a year now and nothing has changed, I don't even know what to say anymore I think all the possible ideas are already out there and it's pretty simple what needs to happen. We need better DPS or ALOT BETTER utility. The DPS hierarchy looks like this for fighters:BerserkerGuardianShadowknightBruiserMonkPaladinWhen it should look like thisBruiserMonkShawdowknightPaladinBerserkerGuardianI was looking around at other forums to see what fighters were thinking about their classes and I came across a thread in the Guardians board about what they were looking foward to in Kunark. The thread devolved into rants about what they thought they were missing, but in the end practically everyone on the thread agreed and Brawlers needed the most love of the fighter archtype. This thread was like 8 pages long, seriously go check it out, everyone knows how pathetic we are.But in the end, the thread title says it all and there's not much more to debate;"At What Point Are We Going to Get Fixed?" </blockquote>LoL Thats what the DPS Heirarchy works if your brawlers suck REALLY badly. Single Target its Berserker, Bruiser, Monk, Guardian, Shadowknight, Paladin AoE its Berserker, Shadowknight, Bruiser, tied for last Monk, Paladin, Guardian Please don't compare suck-tastic players for your Heirarchy.

Couching

06-06-2007, 09:51 PM

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>LoL Thats what the DPS Heirarchy works if your brawlers suck REALLY badly. Single Target its Berserker, Bruiser, Monk, Guardian, Shadowknight, Paladin AoE its Berserker, Shadowknight, Bruiser, tied for last Monk, Paladin, Guardian Please don't compare suck-tastic players for your Heirarchy. </blockquote>Stop to make up the fact that guard, sk can out damage brawler in single target. It's already stated in guardian forum. By your logic, if a guardian can't out damage a brawler, it's just because he sucks.

PaganSaint

06-07-2007, 12:24 AM

I guess I'm spoiled by playing with brawlers who can play their class. If every single other brawler sucks as bad as you guys say they do, then why are you still playing the class? If no one played it anymore or the class population dropped maybe they would take notice. But as it is they aren't going to change much of anything because the "facts" you people are using are [Removed for Content].

Couching

06-07-2007, 02:24 AM

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>I guess I'm spoiled by playing with brawlers who can play their class. If every single other brawler sucks as bad as you guys say they do, then why are you still playing the class? If no one played it anymore or the class population dropped maybe they would take notice. But as it is they aren't going to change much of anything because the "facts" you people are using are [I cannot control my vocabulary]. </blockquote>Another lame excuse that you have posted. There are not only hardcore players in this game. You should read again and see if you can find how many complains there are of brawler in group encounters. Let me tell you, almost nothing. Why? It's plain and simple. We are worst tank but we have better dps than most tank in group encounters. We have nothing to complain since the class role of brawler is on top dps and at bottom of tanking of all fighters. Brawler is a fun class to play for casual players. There is nothing wrong. Though, don't use it as an excuse that brawler is fine in raid since people are still playing it. Again, your post didn't answer any idea which is against you. You keep dodging and you can't even convince other guardians in guardian forum that brawler can out damage guardian. You need to work harder to make up the story. By the way, you are indeed spoiled by not only your brawler guild mate, it's your whole guild. They can even tolerate you did less dps than brawler, they are really nice. PS: The comparison is based on brawler and guardian with buckler line. If you are fully tank specialized without buckler line, brawler will out damage you. Though, most guardians have buckler line since it gives them better aggro control (better dps = better aggro).

tt66

06-07-2007, 06:35 AM

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thats what the DPS Heirarchy works if your brawlers suck REALLY badly. Single Target its Berserker, Bruiser, Monk, Guardian, Shadowknight, Paladin AoE its Berserker, Shadowknight, Bruiser, tied for last Monk, Paladin, Guardian Please don't compare suck-tastic players for your Heirarchy. </blockquote> 1) As has been mentioned before, check out the Guardian forums. Even other classes know that we're lacking in DPS. 2) We have a grand total of 2 AoE attacks, 3 with crane twirl. How on earth do we get to be third place for AoE?

Prrasha

06-07-2007, 01:02 PM

<cite>tt66 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thats what the DPS Heirarchy works if your brawlers suck REALLY badly. Single Target its Berserker, Bruiser, Monk, Guardian, Shadowknight, Paladin AoE its Berserker, Shadowknight, Bruiser, tied for last Monk, Paladin, Guardian Please don't compare suck-tastic players for your Heirarchy. </blockquote> 1) As has been mentioned before, check out the Guardian forums. Even other classes know that we're lacking in DPS. 2) We have a grand total of 2 AoE attacks, 3 with crane twirl. How on earth do we get to be third place for AoE? </blockquote>And how did pallys land in last place for AE? Granted, I'm a bit biased since my main's a pally and my bruisah and zerker are alts... but no way does consecrate + brimstone + relentless conviction + holy circle + smite evil (!) + doom judgment + (maybe) castigate, with 69% crits on everything except HC and DJ, amount to poor AE performance. And I don't even have the AGI line's 36%-of-autoattacks-are-AE or the STA line's Hammer Ground AE. Methinks pagansaint has been comparing some modera tely "suck-tastic" players for his hierarchy... (Pallies do belong at the bottom for single-target DPS, though. He got that part right.)

Ganeden

06-07-2007, 01:12 PM

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>LoL Thats what the DPS Heirarchy works if your brawlers suck REALLY badly. Single Target its Berserker, Bruiser, Monk, Guardian, Shadowknight, Paladin AoE its Berserker, Shadowknight, Bruiser, tied for last Monk, Paladin, Guardian Please don't compare suck-tastic players for your Heirarchy. </blockquote> Maybe I was wrong about the guardian, maybe they should probably be number three with SK number two. I still think SKs should be number two on single target dps on your list and monks own us on aoe dps, so we have to be number four. Even with your list we're still not at the top, which we should certinally should be. Bruiser survivability is great. Leveling to 70 was easy. I can do quests very well solo. All these things are fine but once you get to level 70 (which everyone eventually will, and if they dont who cares what they want) and start to raid you realize how gimped this class is. Someone asked why we should still play the class if we suck so bad. Well I put a ton of real life hours into this character and didn't realize how bleak the situation was until 70. I even bet we were getting beat on dps by other fighters up til 70 too. If you got a serious look at the numbers at lower levels I'm sure it would show this. I think made things seem fine for me was that I could solo well and had great survivability with feign. I had FUN leveling this class up but now that I'm at 70 I just get frustrated looking at raid parses and seeing other fighters ahead of me. Our first and foremost job should of been tanking, but ovbiously this is out of the window. I don't think the devs will ever get avoidance tanking with epics right and if they did the other fighters would cry foul, which would be fair. We're always going to be at the bottom of the tank totem pole and that's fine, I EXPECTED that when I rolled this class but I also expected that I would be high and above the best fighter dps which I'm not. I'm not even close really. Berzerkers shouldn't be ANYWHERE near us! Paladins and SKs should be higher then them and yet they're the second best tank and best dps? If you're a zerker reading this, tell me one reason why this should beWe should be owning other fighters on DPS; aoe, single target, burst, zone wide and we're not.

Krokous

06-07-2007, 01:12 PM

this thead should be closed, ppl post here many untrues about brawler utility: there is almost no brawler utility in hardcore raid environment. dot. as of dps yeah great brawler can dish out 1500 dps its so nice, but wait! swash can do in almost any encounter 3000 dps wow (those brawlers who make more have [Removed for Content] raid leaders building group setup FOR brawler, as consequence is that raid dps will be lower cuz some other ppl will lack buffing. FACT) and please you "uber brawlers" who post here about your shake-off and avoidance utility in eof... you make me laugh you have no idea what matters, its max hp, uncontested avoidance (which is still silly vs orange mob), and migitation (you dont realize that lvl 75 mob makes much lesser damage to plate tank than to you)

Ganeden

06-07-2007, 01:17 PM

I want to be clear that I don't think a nerf to any of these fighter classes in question is the way to go. The way melee agro works in this game is that 1 point of damage = 1 point of hate. The "real" raid tanks were having alot of agro trouble in EOF and with the combat revamp they got a boost to help them. If they get nerfed on their dps then "hardcore" raids will suffer. You need 22k+ dps to be efficient in MMIS, EH, FTH, CMF. If the tanks got their dps nerfed they'd have serious trouble keeping agro with raids that put out that much dps. Fighters need to be more scaled to scouts. Which they are for the most part, it's just that the wrong classes are at the top of the fighter scale. While I think that scouts should have a wide margin of dps(bards not included) we as bralwers need to be scaled closer to them or to put it another way we need to be scaled alot better within the fighter classes! We CAN'T give everyone a boost in dps right now, it would trivialize too many encounters. If you boost too many classes at once you'll get twice as many nerfs later and I've already stated the issues with fighter dps. I can't believe I've gotten dragged into yet another one of these threads. The above answer if my most constructive and fair "answer" to our DPS problems.PaganSaint wrote: <blockquote>I guess I'm spoiled by playing with brawlers who can play their class. If every single other brawler sucks as bad as you guys say they do, then why are you still playing the class? If no one played it anymore or the class population dropped maybe they would take notice. But as it is they aren't going to change much of anything because the "facts" you people are using are [I cannot control my vocabulary]. </blockquote> What are your "facts"? I could post many parses from my guild site if you'd like that would show a guardian and berzerker consistantly beating me in dps. I'm no slouch either, I'm fully mastered and fabled and know how to play my class. The guardians armor may be a bit better then my fabled but even still he shouldnt be even close to beating me. We don't have a SK that raids so I can't compare with that, but I've went over to the SK forums and i've seen their DPS numbers and I've formed a general opinion. You've written four sentences and you're an expert? I'm guessing you're one of the other fighter classes that are beating us and you don't want to face the facts that you're overpowered.

Godsgift4040

06-09-2007, 03:05 AM

Gungo@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>You are severlly undervaluing us denubis.We(bruisers) can parse ~2k dps w the right gear and decent group setups. We are great for all raids that require fighter dps. We off tank ok. (True probably comparable to rogues now). stone deaf/closed mind and self cure and heal are fantastic self reliant abilites no class gets that i use religously in raids (as well as fake death). Our kos AA's are rather lackluster but EoF gave us drag. Which again is one of the greatest raid utilities in EoF. This ability specifically allows a bruiser to postion a mob better then any other class. Deal with mem wipes like no other and can completely make certain fights easier. Aoflame has a rooted epic add that aoe's. A single bruiser completely negates this mob from effecting the raid. i dont know what you really want. I see what you mean but really what do you want. The only plausible role they cna give a brawler is to reinstitute fake death. From another Gungo postI am quite certain there will be no class balancing changes until after RoK comes out. Classes are fairly balanced as they are. There will be no new AA's. So no changes in class roles through new abilites. And 1 new spell< NO clue what this new spell will bring. ALTHOUGH there is one significant change in the future. With the inclusion of epic weapons. They are redoing AA's that have requirements. Thus you can wield your clas sspecific epic and use ANY aa line. I am sure this change will require some tweaking, but this change has the added benefit of possibly increasing bruiser dps ALOT. Depending if the unarmed requirement is removed from the Str AA line. The point is EVEN if they increase bruiser dps our role and reason we are on raids does not change. We will still not outdps pure dps classes. We will still be taken on raids for drag, fighter dps, offtanking, melle skill debuff, and shrug off. Your role will not change so learn to play yoru class and quit complaining. </blockquote>then there was Quote from GUNGO"I was a little high on my mit figure (was at work) but it is still a minimal difference between plates and brawlers. It is still ~65% thats just the way it is buffed. avodiance is effectively capped at 75%+ and dps zoen wides are capable of 1500+ in a normal dps group of Inqusitor and dirge. But we do need more dps (inrelation to other fighters) and something else liek aoe rescue. The problem with this thread it became an individual rant and was not constructive. Mitigation is not going to make the difference. It is the skill sets such as tower of stone, reiforcements, insolete gibe etc. We just dotn have the avoidance or agro skills. "So first you claim i dont know my class and that we as a class are fine but just undervalued. Then you say i need to learn my class and that everything is balanced. But now, you are saying we need help? Did anyone else notice a complete 180 in your argument? I THINK YOU SAW THE LIGHT, but maybe i am wrong. btw i still have never played beta so not sure who the [I cannot control my vocabulary] ya saw with my name, maybe i am that well liked ;p that someone copied the name lol but it wasnt me never have never will play beta. Dont pretend that you know me because you dont. It is sad it took what 10 pages to have people start seeing that we [I cannot control my vocabulary] suck as a class raid wise atm and are in desperate need of a boost of some type. Here is one such point pulled from the guardian forums. Quoted from Jaraxx"Here is some advice, keep doing what you guys have been doing. Guardians are the top dogs for tanking, we don't need anything special for us to keep hate better, our dps is fine. We are the lowest of all Fighters but still int he same ball park as all of them. Give a monk/Paladin the same gear as me, they will out dps me if they don't suck. Berserkers/Bruisers/Sks same deal. We have the top for the line Defense capabilities and the worst dps of the fighters which is a perfect trade off. There are no current problems with the Guardian Class. If anything I'd work on the other fighters such as Brawlers/Paladins as there classes are pretty much a bad joke and the only job I could ever come up for them on raids is to watch for roaming mobs in a stationary zone. SKS/Zerkers/Guardians are not over powered, they are where they should be. The other three are a bad joke. Let me give some input on them Monks/Bruisers need more DPS, alot more dps to ever be considered of use. They should be slaughtering all the rest of the fighters. As it stands right now a berserker can parse 2k in basically any zone wide, so can an SK and I can break 1700 (at my best). These are with average and non stacked groups. I've never seen a brawler/paladin do that much in a zw, only times I've seen them come close is when they are in a insanely stacked group which they shouldn't have buffs wasted on them. So up the monks DPS. Give paladins better heals and take away their nukes and add on wards. They aren't a tank. The best of the best Paladins Madbiker/Itoock insanely skilled players as far as I can tell do pretty good, but they are held back by their class."Jaraxx Goldveins - Leader of Strike I have to agree with Jaraxx but it is the same [I cannot control my vocabulary] i have been argueing this entire thread. Sad gungo when you think i started ranting at you but you insinuated that i didnt know how to play my class, and wanted to show to me how useful we were with your mayong example here.Quoted from Gungo"But really if you don't like playing a bruiser please quit. You are not addign anything constructive to the class. You can't figure out what the bruisers unique tools are or how to use them porperly. You failed at not only showing yoru guild, but yourself what we can do. We do fine better then monks imho and we actually find ourselves useful in many raids. Sometimes its drag. Sometimes its the fighter dps. Sometimes its offtanking or something as easy as draging the pumkinheaded horseman to his spot after he spawns his pumkins. Seriosously bruisers are good DPS 2k+ consisnt dps is good. maybe not in the top 5 anymore but its darn close. Remember you are NOT a scout or caster you should not outdps them. Once you learn that you will be happier with yoru class. If you cant live with that you may as well reroll now. A while back we were havign trouble with instanced mayong in eof. I told the raid leader give me a shot drop the coercer and place me in the mt group i can keep the MT up. bascially i used shrug off on the MT and interceded the timed debuff. You know what it worked the MT rarely got hit. I stood in def stance w a shti ton of defensive gear. Enough t raise my avoid to above 80% (yeha i know cap is 75% but display is toward lvl 70 mobs) I litterly ate most hits that went through. The next day the raid leader said do what you did again on this avatar i explained it wont work the same because alot of the damage was because of the aoe. In other words learn your class, Because if you play and people have to wonder [Removed for Content] you are there for then you are doing something wrong. " Normally i dont attack people, but when you call me out, say i dont know how to play my class, make up the fabrications i stated earlier the beta one being just ridiculous, and then have the audacity to change your argument to mine...... 7 pages later in a post....come on now. You think i let you escape with that. Again the title of this thread, "at what point are we going to get fixed?" sums up my thoughts. If i didnt love the bruiser i wouldnt be spending the time here. I would just like us reinstated back to our former glory or back to the place where we were in KoS. So there are really 3 choices, our DPS goes UP by a [I cannot control my vocabulary] load, our tanking abilities go UP by a [I cannot control my vocabulary] load including agro control, or we get huge increases to our seemingly otherwise non existant utility that puts us equal to classes that should atm replace us on any raid.

ShinmaRyche

06-09-2007, 10:36 PM

I dont post very often anymore, but seriously, dont you think this thread is just a tad out of hand?

firedawg9

06-09-2007, 11:21 PM

The fact of the matter is that there really is no reason to be included on most raids. Yes there are some encounters where drag is handy but it is never required. The only thing we really bring to the table is a tiny dps buff, intercede (which many other classes that are better than us bring), and survivability. It is nice getting through a zone without using repair kits and such but it hardly justifies us being on a raid. Now to the haters that say "role another class if you dont like playing a bruiser". I put way too much work into this toon to just restart a new toon. Every expansion they have nerfed our class to where we are pretty much useless. 1. Dps we are lousy if we arent in a stacked group. We are at best the second highest dps tank and on certain encounters its not suprising to see furys and Inquisitors out parse us if were not in that stacked group. 2. Tanking: We are arguably the worst tanks right now. Only other class that could say they may be worse is monks but with tsunami I put them ahead of us. Right now a tank specced Brigand tanks as good if not better than us. There avoidance isnt too far behind us and there mit and hps are higher. Lets not even mention how easy they hold aggro and the dps they put out. 4. Utility: As far as this the only class that may give less utility to a raid are Rangers. However they come in handy on them fights that involve constant jousting. All we give to a raid is a little dps buff. Its absolutely ridiculous. I love the idea of making stone deaf a group buff. It would be equivalent to aoe immunity for the most part. If we got decent utility I could live with our lousy dps and tanking.To sum it up there really is never a reason to take a bruiser in a raid over an extra scout class especially a rogue. We bring very little to a raid and it needs to be addressed in next expansion. I love the class but the nerfs have added up over time to really make us close to useless.

PaganSaint

06-10-2007, 06:54 PM

The fact of the matter is, there is no point in bringing more than two fighters period to a raid except in very limited and specialized situations, the only one I can actually think of is a Bruiser for dragging and AE damage absorbtion. There is no utility at all that justifies wasting a slot on a non DPS/Healer/Bard class if you have a strong OT and a strong(er) MT, there is not an encounter in the game that needs more than two tanks.

PaganSaint

06-10-2007, 07:03 PM

<cite>Krokous wrote:</cite><blockquote>and please you "uber brawlers" who post here about your shake-off and avoidance utility in eof... you make me laugh you have no idea what matters, its max hp, uncontested avoidance (which is still silly vs orange mob), and migitation (you dont realize that lvl 75 mob makes much lesser damage to plate tank than to you) </blockquote>Avoidance commentary is spot on, but the bit about mitigation isn't. A Bruiser with comparable gear as the Plate tank, both with MT group raid buffs and no temporary mitigation buffs up, will have only three to five percent less mitigation absorbtion. That is the major problem with the stupid, untested, and completely asinine diminishing returns curve applied to mitigation. Why do you think when EoF first came out all the plate tanks were dropping from plate to leather/cloth? To gain as much avoidance as possible because it didn't matter for their mitigation more than a few percent if they could keep their HP at around the same level. Their survivability went up due to how avoidance/mitigation scale with the change. So SOE just took away the option to drop to a lower armor class instead of fixing the real problem. Mitigation diminishing returns makes mitigation numbers pointless once every item gives 350+ mitigation per piece with MT raid buffs.The best tanking boots in the game are leather, you lose approximately 120 mitigation, which is .005-.015% absorbtion, keep or in some cases gain HP total and two stone skin triggers. They'd be the best tanking boots in the game if they were cloth and only 100 mitigation with the HP and stoneskin they give.

Couching

06-10-2007, 08:25 PM

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>The fact of the matter is, there is no point in bringing more than two fighters period to a raid except in very limited and specialized situations, the only one I can actually think of is a Bruiser for dragging and AE damage absorbtion. There is no utility at all that justifies wasting a slot on a non DPS/Healer/Bard class if you have a strong OT and a strong(er) MT, there is not an encounter in the game that needs more than two tanks.</blockquote>When you said that there is no point to bring more than 2 fighters to raid. OK, let me ask you a question, have you ever seen any high end guild MT is brawler or OT is brawler alone? NO WAY! See, the problem? Even there are only 2 spots left for fighters in raid. It won't be brawler! We are worse tank comparing to plate tank and we have big issue in aggro control to hold multiple mobs in high end raids. Brawler has ZERO passive taunt and only 1 encounter taunt. Most plate tanks have passive taunt, 2 encounter taunts and different forms of aoe rescue. Stop high jack this thread to all fighters suck. As long as you need MT and OT in raid, plate fighters are by far superior than brawler in raid.

Godsgift4040

06-11-2007, 02:45 AM

<cite>Krokous wrote:</cite><blockquote>this thead should be closed, ppl post here many untrues about brawler utility: there is almost no brawler utility in hardcore raid environment. dot. as of dps yeah great brawler can dish out 1500 dps its so nice, but wait! swash can do in almost any encounter 3000 dps wow (those brawlers who make more have [I cannot control my vocabulary] raid leaders building group setup FOR brawler, as consequence is that raid dps will be lower cuz some other ppl will lack buffing. FACT) and please you "uber brawlers" who post here about your shake-off and avoidance utility in eof... you make me laugh you have no idea what matters, its max hp, uncontested avoidance (which is still silly vs orange mob), and migitation (you dont realize that lvl 75 mob makes much lesser damage to plate tank than to you) </blockquote> I am happy someone else found the shake off and avoidance utility funny. It makes it even more comical when we talking about orange mobs. Denubis Befallen

Gungo

06-11-2007, 03:53 PM

Whatever denubis point being even with other classes on raid (and the fact i can and do play all 24 classes on a regular basis on raids) my guild finds solid uses and roles for brawlers that only we can do. You on the other hand will continue to sit out becuase you can not perform. You may not suck, but obviously by your own admission you are useless. Avatar of valor down why becuase a brawler can grab the class adds faster, use a stone on the add, fake death and let the adds get burned in the raid. No other class can do that. Sk, necros 5 min recast on fake death. Good luck finding a case because while i still somehow take my "broken" bruiser on raids, findng solid roles that directly involve me winning the raids and killing avatars you will continue to be a cheerleader on the sidelines. Yes, we can use more dps, maybe even more aoe agro, maybe even an offensive group buff, But we are far from broken which is what your RANT and title of this thread was about. The fact i say we can use more of this or that DOES NOT mean we are broken. You may be broken Denubis, but I for one am not.

Gungo

06-11-2007, 04:10 PM

<cite>Godsgift4040 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Krokous wrote:</cite><blockquote>this thead should be closed, ppl post here many untrues about brawler utility: there is almost no brawler utility in hardcore raid environment. dot. as of dps yeah great brawler can dish out 1500 dps its so nice, but wait! swash can do in almost any encounter 3000 dps wow (those brawlers who make more have [I cannot control my vocabulary] raid leaders building group setup FOR brawler, as consequence is that raid dps will be lower cuz some other ppl will lack buffing. FACT) and please you "uber brawlers" who post here about your shake-off and avoidance utility in eof... you make me laugh you have no idea what matters, its max hp, uncontested avoidance (which is still silly vs orange mob), and migitation (you dont realize that lvl 75 mob makes much lesser damage to plate tank than to you) </blockquote> I am happy someone else found the shake off and avoidance utility funny. It makes it even more comical when we talking about orange mobs. Denubis Befallen</blockquote>Again your to dumb to realise orange mobs has NOTHING to do with contested avoidance. Orange is level based and no matter what type of contested or uncontested avoidance it will be the same net result. The fact is once a mob is debuffed, the contested portion of avoidance is quite effective. Tell someone in raid to parse the difference, since you obviously cheerlead ont he sideline. Heck pay atention to the first few seconds of the pull and see how much more damage people take until the mob is debuffed. Contested avoidance DOES have a tangible benefit. but then again all brawlers are broken, right which is why i continue to raid and kill mobs and your dusting off your pom-poms. I used the mayong fight as an example one of many examples i provided. Drag on flame, fake death debuff on valor adds, drag on PHH, tanking gardener during his mem wipes, chain stunning heroic any adds that aoe stilfe/stun. Somehow i am doig all this while sucking and being broken and your on the sidelines odd don't you think. Pardon me for taking your opinion as a grain of salt.

tt66

06-11-2007, 08:45 PM

Gungo@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>Avatar of valor down why becuase a brawler can grab the class adds faster, use a stone on the add, fake death and let the adds get burned in the raid. No other class can do that. Sk, necros 5 min recast on fake death. </blockquote> Gungo, can you expand on this a little bit? Because it sounds like an example of a situation where Bruisers have actual utility and a real purpose in a raid besides fighter DPS (rather than just cool but not particularly needed tricks), and that's really all I'm looking for.

Gungo

06-11-2007, 10:56 PM

PM sent without giving most of the fight away its hard to say on this board.

Shankonia

06-12-2007, 01:42 AM

<cite>tt66 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Gungo@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>Avatar of valor down why becuase a brawler can grab the class adds faster, use a stone on the add, fake death and let the adds get burned in the raid. No other class can do that. Sk, necros 5 min recast on fake death. </blockquote> Gungo, can you expand on this a little bit? Because it sounds like an example of a situation where Bruisers have actual utility and a real purpose in a raid besides fighter DPS (rather than just cool but not particularly needed tricks), and that's really all I'm looking for. </blockquote> Hey Gungo, much respect to ya bro over the years, but if you would please edit your post to say "Bruisers" rather than "Brawlers." I don't want anyone thinking my Monk finally has a use on one encounter that is only killed by guilds on my server who don't even have a Brawler on the roster.Justifying your raiding existence on one encounter only and then failing to elaborate while belittling others is poor form. Bruisers and Monks are not the same. Stop speaking as if they are. Maybe you should throw a troub in that MT group next time instead of the Dirge.

ganjookie

06-12-2007, 06:30 PM

He's right. Don't lump those [Removed for Content] as monks in with us.

Ganeden

06-13-2007, 08:02 PM

<cite>tt66 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Gungo@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>Avatar of valor down why becuase a brawler can grab the class adds faster, use a stone on the add, fake death and let the adds get burned in the raid. No other class can do that. Sk, necros 5 min recast on fake death. </blockquote> Gungo, can you expand on this a little bit? Because it sounds like an example of a situation where Bruisers have actual utility and a real purpose in a raid besides fighter DPS (rather than just cool but not particularly needed tricks), and that's really all I'm looking for. </blockquote>First off it's kind of a joke that you can't tell what you do for valor, he's the easiest avatar and his strategy has been well known (by any raid force that can kill him) for awhile now. Utility on one mob doesn't make us useful overall.

PaganSaint

06-13-2007, 10:48 PM

Couching@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote><cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>The fact of the matter is, there is no point in bringing more than two fighters period to a raid except in very limited and specialized situations, the only one I can actually think of is a Bruiser for dragging and AE damage absorbtion. There is no utility at all that justifies wasting a slot on a non DPS/Healer/Bard class if you have a strong OT and a strong(er) MT, there is not an encounter in the game that needs more than two tanks.</blockquote>When you said that there is no point to bring more than 2 fighters to raid. OK, let me ask you a question, have you ever seen any high end guild MT is brawler or OT is brawler alone? NO WAY! See, the problem? Even there are only 2 spots left for fighters in raid. It won't be brawler! We are worse tank comparing to plate tank and we have big issue in aggro control to hold multiple mobs in high end raids. Brawler has ZERO passive taunt and only 1 encounter taunt. Most plate tanks have passive taunt, 2 encounter taunts and different forms of aoe rescue. Stop high jack this thread to all fighters suck. As long as you need MT and OT in raid, plate fighters are by far superior than brawler in raid. </blockquote>Have seen and used a bruiser as OT for Contested Mayong. Works rather well. Same for Ancient Grovebeast, but meh, it just comes down to player skill and equipment. If your brawler isn't equipped to atleast a blend of high end KoS and EoF gear and isn't prepared to tank then yeah you won't be able to do any of that.

PaganSaint

06-13-2007, 10:56 PM

EDIT: GDI Double Post

Madmoon

06-14-2007, 09:40 AM

Yesterday, we took on the Avatar of Angry Feelings, with one group. I was the main fighter, supported only by a seasick Erudinite druid, an anemic Froglok warlock, an easily distracted Half-elf assassin (think bouncy balls and a puppy,) and two bickering Fae enchanter twins. So, basically a solo fight, and yet I was victorious! True, it was a negotiated settlement, but Bruisers are allowed to use brains, too, as long as we frown a lot. What we need is someone to explain which goes on first, gloves or handwraps.Redmouser

Sagard

06-15-2007, 09:03 PM

Mylinda@Oasis wrote: <blockquote>I agree with Gungo, and going to repeat a lot of the same.First off you scream give me something another class has. The rest of us are screaming NO we already have it, dont do that, they might take away from our class. If you want what another class has, reroll. Its that simple. Bruisers cant do what wizards can. Bruisers cant do what Scouts can. Scouts and wizards cant do what Bruisers can. If you think the game is Tanking, Healing, DPS, Good Luck raiding Labs. I hope you get full excarnate and those shiney weapons. There is so much more we can do.Drag. Only Bruisers have an ability like this. When pulling Taranix into the water sometimes he does not come in all the way. PurrroBLEM! But with drag, every pull can be positioned exactly where you want it. Your guild wont suffer from the "AW Fishsticks.. bad pull bro, we'll get it again" If you don't have this, you should get it. It makes you a key asset to your raid force. If your guild doesn't want to use it, it's their choice. Not only positioning, but moving ... QUICKLY...What class can teleport an epic 30meteres near instantly? Bruiser can. Sonic Fists + Drag. Blam. Who can absorb a the main tanks ae damage without tanking damage themselve? bruiser can. Stone Deaf + Intercede. A lot of bruisers dont even think this far into their class... and when it comes time it makes you crucial. Gives the raid something they couldnt do before. Where are these things needed? Perhaps in helping split a pull from adds. I wont say where its helpful, but I know some people would like adds split from the name a lot faster <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Bruisers Parse really well. Im suprised some scouts aren't upset. Again it all comes to the player. I've seen some bruisers parse 400 consistantly. I've seen some parse 1600-2000k consistantly. On a five minute fight in MIS, I parsed 1418, which was only 100 dps less then scouts in my group. Five minutes isn't a short spiked damage fight, and being in same group, we shared the same buffs so we didn't benifit from one another. I wans't even specced dps at the time. We get Stone Deaf. Some scouts get a AE blocker but its on a much longer recast. We can sit in every other AE and continue to dps. When they call dps out for a AE, its up to you to empower yourself with Stonedeaf to know you can stay in. You also gotta know what the AE is.Its not just 3 Princes anymore that we're pretty much required for, but how about Chel Drak. That is a raid that every guild can do. You want to tear those warriors down with a beserkers whopping 1k dps? How about a Paladin? Everyone knows the best dps from a tank comes from brawlers HOLLAA!Brawlers who want to step up have to show guilds they're not just another brawler. Guilds are afraid of the 400dps brawler. They're better off recruiting a Inquisitor and begging them to go Battle Cleric. The guild I am in now, I applied to. The response I recieved, and knew I would recieve, was "Sorry we're not looking for a brawler atm, please apply in the future." My response was to that was this, "I checked your website, you only have one active brawler and I spoke with them. They aren't as active as they used to be. They also did not have a problem with me joining the guild. Im not looking to fill a open brawler spot. Im applying as an exceptional player to be reviewed for long term progression in the game. I've gone ahead and collected resist gear. Even though some of it is garbage, I can get any resist to 8k. On top of that I've got most of my masters with only 7 adept III left. You can expect a steady 700-900 dps out of me even in a garbage group. In a good group I can garuntee 1k-1200. With good gear I will give you 1500dps. (I now parse 1400-1900 btw consistantly even when Crane Flock and Knockout Combination are down.)"The next day I was recruited, and Im now a member in fully fabled gear and fully mastered (Including those masters brawlers say they dont really want/need, I got them). I've only been in the guild for 30 days and my Fae Bruiser BOOYAH was created Febuary 1rst. SO between now and then, with all my hard work, Ive surpassed players that have been playing since release. I have scouts asking me for tips, cause if I dps near them, they know they should be dps even higher. It's all about the player. If you want advice, feel free to shoot a /tell oasis.mylinda, If I dont answer Im passed out or AFK. I'll talk gear, I'll talk dps, I'll talk AA. Im very analitical and experienced. I can give facts and numbers, instead of just this is what I read on the forums. </blockquote>Wow. Awesome post. I've just picked up the game and this makes me think I chose well with bruiser. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Couching

06-16-2007, 12:03 AM

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>Couching@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote><cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>The fact of the matter is, there is no point in bringing more than two fighters period to a raid except in very limited and specialized situations, the only one I can actually think of is a Bruiser for dragging and AE damage absorbtion. There is no utility at all that justifies wasting a slot on a non DPS/Healer/Bard class if you have a strong OT and a strong(er) MT, there is not an encounter in the game that needs more than two tanks.</blockquote>When you said that there is no point to bring more than 2 fighters to raid. OK, let me ask you a question, have you ever seen any high end guild MT is brawler or OT is brawler alone? NO WAY! See, the problem? Even there are only 2 spots left for fighters in raid. It won't be brawler! We are worse tank comparing to plate tank and we have big issue in aggro control to hold multiple mobs in high end raids. Brawler has ZERO passive taunt and only 1 encounter taunt. Most plate tanks have passive taunt, 2 encounter taunts and different forms of aoe rescue. Stop high jack this thread to all fighters suck. As long as you need MT and OT in raid, plate fighters are by far superior than brawler in raid. </blockquote>Have seen and used a bruiser as OT for Contested Mayong. Works rather well. Same for Ancient Grovebeast, but meh, it just comes down to player skill and equipment. If your brawler isn't equipped to atleast a blend of high end KoS and EoF gear and isn't prepared to tank then yeah you won't be able to do any of that. </blockquote>My point is if bruiser is the only OT or there is another OT work him. I have done as OT in CMayong with a zerker. The point is brawler can hold 4 mobs at same time from 3k+ mages or not. Edit: Bruiser has more aoe CA than monk if I remeber correctly. If not, correct me please.

PaganSaint

06-16-2007, 05:14 AM

Actually thats one of the only two maybe three mobs we use more than one off tank for, and the bruiser is actually better at yanking multiple adds off the MT healers than a guard or SK which we have also used. The Bruiser/SK combo seemed to me to work better with heavier lag than the Guard/SK combo that is normally run. Bruisers have better AE damage CAs iirc like you said also.

Raidi Sovin'faile

06-17-2007, 04:36 AM

Bruisers have 1 more AE CA than Monks. And it's on a long recast, so it's not like we'll be holding aggro a ton better because of it. Considering Monks get more out of Crane Flock (Wis AA final) due to having higher <strike>strength</strike> haste (rarely as a Bruiser do I reach higher than 60 haste and that's in a DPS group, not offtank group, so yes.. there's a noticeable difference), I would say the difference in holding group aggro is not that big. Both Brawlers are in desperate need of help with group aggro.

Godsgift4040

06-17-2007, 10:34 PM

Gungo@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>Whatever denubis point being even with other classes on raid (and the fact i can and do play all 24 classes on a regular basis on raids) my guild finds solid uses and roles for brawlers that only we can do. You on the other hand will continue to sit out becuase you can not perform. You may not suck, but obviously by your own admission you are useless. Avatar of valor down why becuase a brawler can grab the class adds faster, use a stone on the add, fake death and let the adds get burned in the raid. No other class can do that. Sk, necros 5 min recast on fake death. Good luck finding a case because while i still somehow take my "broken" bruiser on raids, findng solid roles that directly involve me winning the raids and killing avatars you will continue to be a cheerleader on the sidelines. Yes, we can use more dps, maybe even more aoe agro, maybe even an offensive group buff, But we are far from broken which is what your RANT and title of this thread was about. The fact i say we can use more of this or that DOES NOT mean we are broken. You may be broken Denubis, but I for one am not. </blockquote> done with this little discussion we have had. yes ur guild has found use for u, they want sub par dps and no utilities and no debuffs. You do realize if you played a zerker, sk, or gaurd you would do so much more for your guild on the tanking front. Yes we can tank bloodbeast i have even picked it up after our gaurd died on the move cause our healers were sleepin and tanked it but you do realize any other tank class could have done that and even easier then we can? i have seen zerkers pick up treah where we would get [Removed for Content] tryin to assume agro on that mob. point is you dont do amazing dps, you offer nothing to a raid. i have seen now two valors kills in both there was not a single brawler. so if you really do think you won because of yourself gungo i have to say you have an arrogance problem. substitute any other class or talent player and u can remove brawlers from that fight and u will kill it faster and easier then with us in it. for contested mayong u really think we are the best class for aoe agro? does ur guild have a talented sk or zerker or even a pally? people are freakin out when we can do what tank the fuckin bloodbeast in eh? lol. congratz we can do things that any other tank can do but easier and with better agro? not sure that is something to get excited about. well we do have a GU coming up will see if we get some love. i love your response gungo to my post was "whatever denubis" and then you changed subjects entirely on me so i guess that was your way of saying i was right or maybe you were just argueing for the sake of argueing and had no legitamate points to make. In a guild with 24 of the most talented players, brawlers in raids are pretty much useless i would like to see that changed. Be nice to have people say, make sure you grab the bruiser for that buff, or for their dps, or for the debuff we need, instead of grab them because they are a half [Removed for Content] tank that does half [Removed for Content] scout dps which we are atm.

Madmoon

06-27-2007, 01:34 PM

<cite>Godsgift4040 wrote:</cite><blockquote>done with this little discussion we have had. yes ur guild has found use for u, they want .... grab them because they are a half [I cannot control my vocabulary] tank that does half [I cannot control my vocabulary] scout dps which we are atm. </blockquote><takes out a hanky, blows into it loudly>As you may have heard, godsg4040 has finally given in to the utter hopelessness of our class. He.. he has rerolled. <takes a moment to compose himself> He became a woodelf scout named Treeclimber Fortyforty and raids regularly. Despite this, in lieu of flowers, he has asked that any money go as donations to the Freeport Dreadnoughts on the Venekor server.The best of us are taken early like a shooting star in the shape of a candle burning at both ends briefly. Or something like that.Redmouser Bruiser, AB

Godsgift4040

06-30-2007, 07:12 PM

<cite>Madmoon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Godsgift4040 wrote:</cite><blockquote>done with this little discussion we have had. yes ur guild has found use for u, they want .... grab them because they are a half [I cannot control my vocabulary] tank that does half [I cannot control my vocabulary] scout dps which we are atm. </blockquote><takes out a hanky, blows into it loudly>As you may have heard, godsg4040 has finally given in to the utter hopelessness of our class. He.. he has rerolled. <takes a moment to compose himself> He became a woodelf scout named Treeclimber Fortyforty and raids regularly. Despite this, in lieu of flowers, he has asked that any money go as donations to the Freeport Dreadnoughts on the Venekor server.The best of us are taken early like a shooting star in the shape of a candle burning at both ends briefly. Or something like that.Redmouser Bruiser, AB </blockquote>wish more would at least try to help themselves, because GU 36 came by and we got like 3000000% times better.......................hurray sks pallies zerkers and gaurdians got a lot better and we got i am not sure lol slightly slightly more dps maybe................. ya i rerolled i made an sk so i can MT kos raids and other [Removed for Content] we dont do anymore in our guild when i dont raid on denubis because it is fun playing a tank that can hold agro and not just single target agro, multiple encounter agro and never lose it ;p. It is also fun to be able to mt raids like bruisers could in kos where as now we are a laughable add tank even. meh doesnt really matter now regardless gu36 came and went and we are still a [Removed for Content] class in pretty much any worthwhile raid setting. I guess we can cross our fingers again for gu37........... denubis befallen