knightofround
05-04-2007, 04:15 AM
If you're looking at high endgame raiding, Defilers take the cake. Mostly because we buff health directly, while Mystics have to do it through STA. Most raiding guilds will have all of their members with 300+ sta anyway, so they're not going to get much benefit per extra STA point. Another thing going for us is that we have better single-target debuffs, while mystics have better encounter-wide debuffs. But the vast majority of endgame encounters are single encounters; and if there's adds, they're usually mezzable/burnable. Don't get me wrong, Mystics are still great to have on a raid. Bolster and Ancestry go a long way to closing the desirability gap. But tendrils and invective v. bolster, tendrils/invective slightly wins. Soulward v. Ancestry, soulward slightly wins. Spiritual circle v. umbral attendent is not even a contest. Torpor v. Maelstorm...both equally suck. Voice of Ancesters v. Immunization, VoA wins simply by nature of being a group removal. Mystics cure far better than defilers...but with forced canni, we never run out of oom like Mystics do. (Although admittedly, if you're in a high-end raiding situation you should have insane mana regen in every group anyway) All that being said, Mystics can be far better soloers than us, and they are probably more useful than defilers in single-group settings with folks that are not deep into diminishing returns. They are also much more useful outside of a MT group than a Defiler.
Karihi
05-04-2007, 05:29 AM
<p>Ulfgar had posted this one one of the other boards, it was about where a mystic/defiler fits into a raid, but I think it can also help you see some of the similar spells we get and maybe help you decide which one would be best for you.</p><p>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</p><p>Quote:</p><p>"This is an in-depth comparison between fully mastered, max level, max achievement Shaman in different raid groups. Keep in mind, I am NOT a shaman who believes that mystics and defilers should be even in a main tank group. I'm just sharing most of my research into the class particulars. I would never suggest Mystics or Defilers have no place on a raid... raiding without either shaman is raiding with one hand behind your back when it comes to debuffs. I think the general consensus is that we are nearly balanced in mob debuffing capacity (except, with the new achievements, defilers get a considerable advantage on their debuffs: they are resisted less, do it quicker, and do it for less power then mystics... which allows them to throw their DPS spells to debuff abit more often), and healing capabilities (Defilers say "I want Torpor!". Mystics say "I want Curse of Shielding!" and both can be better depending upon situation), other then what I've outlined below (mainly Prophetic Aegis). I also will not focus on DPS; as, in a raid, I am of the firm believe that role-reinforcement as a general rule is vastly superior to role-diversification (when speaking of Healing vs. DPS). (Note: I topped the heal parses as a Mystic. I top them as a Defiler [I cannot control my vocabulary] near as often. The only difference is, I run more DPS as a Defiler for the added debuffs. All in all, I don't really feel my healing capability has changed.) Also, I discuss some of my thoughts/questions concerning the Shaman class at the end of the post. I have a good amount of experience in both classes as they stand in a raid, as I've played a Mystic in DoF and KoS, and betrayed him to Defiler in EoF. This thread is not intended to bash any class, start any (non-constructive) arguments or bickering, flame anything. So please, do your best to keep this discussion constructive. (EDIT: Removed this part for this thread) Bear with me, as this is long, somewhat verbose, and I can't verify that I was fully sane writing it. I'm definitely feeling a tad bit insane after it's done. Also, it was wrrten in notepad, so forgive my formatting... I'll try to spruce it up some later. I guess we'll get started. IN A MAIN TANK GROUP (including overall description of spells): Group Buffs: M- Runic Aegis- A regenerating 151-point group ward against physical damage. vs. D- Abhorrent Shroud- A regenerating 398-point group ward against non-physical damage (enhanced to rank5, which is a no-brainer for a MT-Defiler). Winner: Defiler M- Spirit of the Mammoth- 102 Stamina for the group (enhanced to rank 5) (which, for a priest at 360 stamina, results in 273HP) vs. D- Rapactiy- 666 Health for the group Winner: Defiler (unless your average stamina in the main tank group is oh, about -4). Single Target Buffs: M- Foretelling- 804H, 721P on 1 other target depending on concentration/needed buffs vs. D- Portent- 964H, 481P on 1 other target depending on concentration/needed buffs Notes/Mitigating Factors: The single-target concentration buff is usually cast on yourself and the Main Tank. If you drop your mit buff, you can place these buffs on one other individual as well. However, dropping any other buff results in HP loss for the MT, so it isn't commonly done. I personally think that the regenerating wards on the mit buffs bring more to the table for the MT then giving someone else another few hundred health/power a vast majority of the time. Winner: On the MT: Defiler On others or theirself: Fight-dependent, probably Mystic M- Ancient Avatar- 76 AGI/STA/STR (On my MT: +231 avoidance, 186 health, 38 ATK, and 3.3 to 3.4% more damage on combat arts WITHOUT any other buffs but mine and his) vs. D- Dire Invective- Proc Buff: 9.5% (1.9/minute) chance to proc ~91-pt (depends on int) disease Dot every 4 seconds for 24 seconds on successful attack. Enhancements not added because the line is not ideal for a MT-defiler in my opinion. AND D- Tendrils of Horror- A buff that grants the MT an 8% chance to proc a 37%DPS and 26% attack speed reduction for any target that damages the MT (duration 36s). Enhancements not added because from what my tank tells me, it's up all the time anyways so its rather irrelevant. Notes: In a day where unlinked adds in raid encounters are plentiful, Tendrils of Horror (slow/dps debuff) trumps the avoidance granted from Avatar. The health is nice, but a defiler already has a mystic beat in the group health buff, so its a non-issue. The Proc from Dire Invective vs. the CA damage from avatar is rougly even; and if Avatar is superior at lower strength, as the tank adds more strength with EoF gear, Dire Invective will pull ahead. Once more, Mystics are buffing against diminishing returns, while Defilers are buffing for a raw amount. Level 70 "Stunning Specialties" M- Oberon Barrier- A single target, regenerating ward that stifles/roots the caster (36s duration). The initial ward is 3172 points (enhanced to rank 5), and assuming the regenerating portions scales as well (I don't have the AA currently) regenerates 1634 every 4 seconds. Total Potential Warding on one target: 16244 over 36s. vs. D- Maelstrom- A group regeneration of both power and health that stifles/roots the caster (40s duration). Also does damage to enemies, but that isn't important here. The heal is for 384-470 every 5 seconds, the power regen is 64-78 every 5 seconds. Total Potential Healing: 4230health and 702 power per groupmember over 40s (Totals: 25380health and 4212 power). Notes: Enhancements not added for defilers because its not a logical setup for a MT group... As a mystic, I MIGHT max it, but might not, so it was included. Winner- In the MT group, neither... arguments could be made for either ability being superior. In my opinion, both have situational uses and are very nice abilities. Since both of these spells are in fact highly situational, I don't think you can declare a clear winner. I think they are fairly balanced, personally, and definitely add to the flavor of each class. Curing: D- Voice of the Ancestors- Cures control effects on the defilers group, can be used while under a control effect. 1s cast, 1m35s recast (enhanced to rank 5) vs. M- Ancient Balm- Cures 93 levels of every effect under the sun. Can commonly rip 2 to 4 debuffs/dots off of a MT. AND Immunization (End AA Line ability) For a 15s duration, target is immune to control effects. 1s cast, 3m recast. Thoughts: Immunization is a nice ability. In the case of cureable effects, this can be placed on the mystic before a known AE or somesuch, and then the mystic can single or group cure the group of the effect. If you know that the control effect is uncurable, then it could be placed upon the main tank instead. However, if there is a stun that we don't know is coming, its near useless. Can also be used as a handy tool for pulling mobs that use control effects almost immediately. Another shining point is that it will make a target immune to charm, which, on some encounters is very nice indeed. Nothing can cure a charm currently (EDIT: THIS HAS CHANGED), so being able to prevent your MT from being charmed is a handy tool. Without this ability, you usually have to have sacrificial pullers to eat a charm, as most mobs that do do so in the first 5 seconds of a fight. That being said, you have to go down an absolute craptastic AA line to get this ability. Ancient Balm is an awesome time saving tool. Its 1s cast and quick recast (6s) make it excellent for keeping a MT cured, which, in my opinion, is just as important as keeping a MT healed. Not only that, but Ancient Balm can be cast on the move. Voice of the Ancestors is a superior tool for keeping your MT group in the fight. Rotated with sanctuary (and possibly the druids' stun immunity if they choose that achievement line), a MT group can get around most of the control effects currently in the game (other then a charm), and even become completely impervious to them in some situations where mob AE recasts are long enough. This can also be cast on the move. Winner: I personally edge towards defiler. Considering that the optimum Shaman achievement setup for the MT group (feel free to argue about it, I'll feel free to laugh) leaves single-target cures at a cast time of .6 (Tribal Expertise rank 5), the fact that Ancient Balm is a 1s cast (and 6s recast) somewhat loses its value. This is somewhat mitigated, however, by the fact that a mystic can run forward on the pull with the tank, and cure as the encounter is being run back to camp, which can make a difference at times. Also, mystics definitely win against charms, the immunity can be nice. However, this is situational, and like I said, if you see a mystic with immunities... don't let them raid with you (until such time as we see a fight where it could be essential, which I highly doubt). Overall, I believe that the ability to cure the entire group of a stun or stifle, thereby keeping 3 of your mainstay priests in the fight in addition to the tank, is superior to anything a Mystic can offer, except in very specialized cases, and in even in those cases, the advantage is somewhat minimized if a mystic not in the MT group actually has immunities (which I admit, might be rare), because you can just have a fighter in the mystics group with immunities pull the mobs that charm, or maybe rescue at the appropriate times. Healing Pets: M- Umbral Attendant- 2s cast, 20s Duration, 1m recast. Heals group members that are within 5-10m or so for 220-250ish a tick (total of 6 ticks). Moves with the mystic. vs. D- Spiritual Circle 2s cast, 1m duration, 2m recast. Has a slight recurrent power cost. Wards group members that are within 5-10m (assuming) for an unknown amount (sorry dont' recall it off the top of my head). The pet is stationary once cast. Winner: Neither... they seem to be fairly balanced, trading off with the fact that the circle can't move and costs higher power versus the fact that it can be up more of the time (1/2 the time as opposed to 1/3 of the time). Of course, the circle wards for about twice as much as the attendant heals, but the attendant will cure everyone in range, while your group shares the ward that the circle puts up (think group regen vs. group ward). Other/No Proper Category- M- Prophetic Aegis- A 2s cast, 36s duration, 1m recast group ward. Increases Noxious resists for the group by 912, and wards EACH member of the group versus 1716 points of noxious damage. If I remember correctly, this ward also possibly regenerates? Hands down, this is an great ability. Defilers get nothing like this, and its use against noxious AE's (which are plentiful both in KoS and moreso in EoF) is seriously, like, huge. Not only will you get hit for less, but it really takes the edge of those 6 or 7k AE's, and totally marginalizes the 3 or 4k AE's. With many mobs in EoF having 40s AE's, it doesn't have the same use that it does on say, Chel'Drak (and some other KoS/TFD encounters), as it can't pretty much always be up.. but nevertheless, it is a very valuable and viable tool. Overall: In my opinion (and in most people's), Defilers bring more to the Main Tank group, be it HP, the ability to slow/dps debuff more mobs, etc, etc, etc. Defiler vs. Mystic in a Melee-DPS oriented raid group: What Changes? Let's go back through. I'll omit numbers and descriptions for brevity, as they have already been explained above. Regenerating Wards on Mit Buffs: Moxnix, to be honest. The only time this really comes into play is on a mob with a damage shield... which come in a variety of effects. If you really must assign a winner, I'd say Defiler has the edge as your group is more likely to take damage from small magical sources then a physical ones. STA vs. HP on level 60 STR Buff: 102 Stamina never equals 666HP... ever. Defiler FTW. Single Target Buffs: More Power vs. More Health- Again, somewhat moxnix. They both have the option of taking down more buffs, since they aren't in the MT group, so they can both place them upon more people. Which is better is entirely situational. On Encounters with Heavy AE's, the defilers could have a slight edge. On Encounters where there is little time for power conservation/regeneration, perhaps Mystics do. Honestly I have no problem with the disparity between these two spells, and find them overall to be balanced. Single Target Toggle Buffs: Tendrils of Horror loses its importance, unless it is on a secondary tank, etc, etc... so does the Agility on Avatar for the purposes of avoidance. The combat art damage added from the STR on Avatar is likely to be 2-4 percent, which, depending on the class, could be better then a proc buff. The STR/AGI on avatar could be used on a fighter/scout as a small power pool buff. However, with the correct AA's, Avatar will also add intelligence and wisdom (48 each), so the buff could very well stay on the mystic. Result: Fairly even. Level 70 Stunning Specialties: Oberon is near useless unless someone in your group pulls aggro. However, if they pull aggro, Oberon isn't nearly enough to keep them up, as you severely limit your already-limited burst healing capabilities. Maelstrom retains some use as both an efficient group heal-over-time and a small power renewal for the group. Result: Defiler Curing: Ancient Balm is probably still thrown on the tank blindly/randomly every so often. However, Voice of the Ancestors is an invaluable tool here, as you can cure group, throw a cure out to one of your MT (or other group) priests, and have them group cure/sanctuary to get over the control effect. Immunities (if taken) loses use, unless a tank in your group is used as a puller for a mob that charms. Results: Defiler Healing Pets: Spiritual Circle loses its use unless there is a small steady stream of damage incoming on the group. Umbral Attendant can be used as a slow, highly efficient heal after an AE, and probably has more use. However, for a melee DPS group, it is likely that the pet (And therefore the shaman, in the Mystic's case) would have to be in AE range of the encounter to really take effect on the group, so both are of limited use. Other: Prophetic Aegis still hands down can be a lifesaver on heavy noxious AE's. Overall: In a melee DPS group, the preferred shaman is quite honestly situational. Both have their uses, the major ones being a noxious ward for the group, and a control effect cure. However, the noxious ward is probably better off in a group where its members are less robust (i.e., a ranged/mage DPS group). Overall, I'll say they are about even, each having a variety of unique, but minor, strengths, for the majority of basic encounters. A defiler is more likely to fill this spot in my raid if we had the option of either one (and having at least one of each shaman class in the raid) Defilers vs. Mystic in a Ranged/Mage DPS-oriented raid group: Regenerating Wards on Mit Buffs: Again, fairly moxnix. It is likely that the Defiler's magic ward will see more use or more efficiency, but not always. STA vs. HP on level 60 STR Buff: Again, 102 Stamina NEVER equals 666HP... ever. Defiler. Single Target Buffs: Same as in a melee-dps group, however, the Mystic slightly outdoes the defiler, as a mage group is much more likely to be able to totally avoid an AE due to range. Results: Mystic Single Target Toggle Buffs: Tendrils is all but useless, and Dire Invective is unless you have a Troubador, Paladin, or Guardian in the group (for aggro control/what-have-you). Avatar follows the same rule as dire invective, but can be used as a small power buff for virtually any target in the group (if enhanced to rank 5). Results: Probably Mystic. Level 70 Stunning Specialties: Almost exactly the same as above. Result: Defiler Curing: Same as above, except immunities probably totally loses its use (unless placed upon someone in your group who can group cure). Results: Defiler Healing Pets: Here the Mystic hedges out over the Defiler in most encounters, as the Attendant can heal after an AE and not be in range of the encounter. Spiritual Circle would be nice in situations of small, steady damage as above, but doesn't give much in the way of protection against AE's. Results: Mystic Other: Prophetic Aegis FTW. Results: Mystic Overall: I believe that a Mystic is slightly more suited to a mage-DPS group, which I find to be somewhat awkward. Aren't we the ones who concentrate on the Physical Side, and the Defilers the ones who concentrate more on the Magical side? Maybe that counterbalance is what makes mystics more effective, granting abit more survivability to gimpy mages. A Hybrid Group: Each have their uses, and things are situational dependant upon the group. Results: For encounters with Noxious AE's: Mystic. For Encounters with Control Effect AE's: Defiler. Overall: Too situational/group dependant to really determine. So, from what we see here, I would say the following: Among players of comparable skill, spellbook, and equipment: A Defiler is definitely better suited to the Main Tank Group. A Mystic is slightly better suited to a Mage DPS Group. Defilers and Mystics are likely equal in a Melee-DPS group, dependent upon setup."</p>
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