Class Set Change, Thought about before update? No....

[Miroh]

  I usually sit myself out based on my connection and basically monks suck for the most part.   I find sitting for a more beneficial class more important than just letting myself be put into raids.  So now with this change, I am either forced to have a better class sit or just have no chance at set pieces.  This goes for anyone that is made to sit at a raid.   Did the Devs actually think about this?  I mean come on, you don't have guilds set to only having 24 members but you do for raid zones....Whats wrong with this picture?    Next time a change like this goes in, can it be thought about more than just half-[Removed for Content].  Can we get some Devs that actually play this game fully before they decide to make a change that is worse than before?

[Borias]

I would say it is the responsibility of your guild leader then to get your class there for loot drops.  If you do not want a monk on your raids period, why should they be getting loot then?  I'm sorry but if you feel your class isn't worth 1 spot on a raid, then you need to re-evaluate what your class can do, and make it your priority to shine and earn that spot then.

[Couching]

Borias@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>I would say it is the responsibility of your guild leader then to get your class there for loot drops.  If you do not want a monk on your raids period, why should they be getting loot then?  I'm sorry but if you feel your class isn't worth 1 spot on a raid, then you need to re-evaluate what your class can do, and make it your priority to shine and earn that spot then.</blockquote>Basically I agree with you that if someone is not in the raid, he shouldn't be geared from raid. Though, class balance is the responsibility of developers and they should make every class worths a spot in raid. 

[Miroh]

Borias@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>I would say it is the responsibility of your guild leader then to get your class there for loot drops.  If you do not want a monk on your raids period, why should they be getting loot then?  I'm sorry but if you feel your class isn't worth 1 spot on a raid, then you need to re-evaluate what your class can do, and make it your priority to shine and earn that spot then. </blockquote>   I am the leader and I realize what sitting a higher dps'er or more buff beneficial person does.  Thats why I choose to sit myself out if someone that can bring more to the raid is on.  And also note that connection was another reason I sit, read all before you try.   And I've been playing a monk for 2 years, I know what my class can do but I know what others can do as well and push come to shove a true dps class out parses in the right set up.  My alts are Brig, Swash and Conjuror and I know as far as dps is concerned, out of all 4...I am 4th.   I don't expect someone that gets into raids and helps out more than someone like me to understand where I am going with this.  Besides, what would a pvp'er care, your fabled set comes from tokens.....   Anyways, most cases...Monks are like the fat kids that are picked last for the team.

[Khurghan]

This change sucks pretty badly for people sitting out on raids and also people asked to play alts, I know we are not unique as a guild in sometimes having to ask someone to play their healer(enchanter/bard/etc) alt. A mold/quest turn-in system would have gone a long way to addressing this issue (hell, Everquest 1 had these in Velious <i>and they are still being used!</i>). - Khurghan Ironstay

[Miroh]

  Yeah, thats what I thought they were going to be before EoF came out, just as Relic was, just more rare... but nope.  Getting items that aren't needed sucks but knowing you are having to throw away a possibility at getting an item sucks even worse.   Good Job SoE...sorry, but this change sucks...flat out and very little thought was put into it before it was introduced.

[Chefren]

Naah, the change in itself is ok, but brawlers really need more raid utility. Group wards, spell reflects, aggro management utility or more dps (personal or group). Anything to make them more desirable for raids.

[Borias]

<cite>Miroh69 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Borias@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>I would say it is the responsibility of your guild leader then to get your class there for loot drops.  If you do not want a monk on your raids period, why should they be getting loot then?  I'm sorry but if you feel your class isn't worth 1 spot on a raid, then you need to re-evaluate what your class can do, and make it your priority to shine and earn that spot then. </blockquote>   I am the leader and I realize what sitting a higher dps'er or more buff beneficial person does.  Thats why I choose to sit myself out if someone that can bring more to the raid is on.  And also note that connection was another reason I sit, read all before you try.   And I've been playing a monk for 2 years, I know what my class can do but I know what others can do as well and push come to shove a true dps class out parses in the right set up.  My alts are Brig, Swash and Conjuror and I know as far as dps is concerned, out of all 4...I am 4th.   I don't expect someone that gets into raids and helps out more than someone like me to understand where I am going with this.  Besides, what would a pvp'er care, your fabled set comes from tokens.....   Anyways, most cases...Monks are like the fat kids that are picked last for the team. </blockquote><p>Actually, I only have 1 piece of pvp gear, and I would prefer EoF raid gear anyways for the bonus.  Which hasn't dropped yet for me.  This really doesn't have to do with connections though does it?  If you were playing a swash and sitting out due to connection, this wouldn't be the same deal.  I think a mold idea would be the best way to go, 100% agree with you.  However please don't disregard my opinion just because I am on a server where people kill each other.  Molds would be a dream come true for us as well.  All I am saying is that if you keep picking this class that doesn't contribute enough, consciously, and keep yourself out of the raid- why do you need the loot?  To use a Blue stereotype- all you guys do is raid anyways, and farm.  If you don't go to the raids, why penalize the people going on the raids by getting loot for someone that isn't there contributing?  Don't you want to equip the people on the raid?</p><p>I've personally seen monks do very well on parses.  Granted I am in a Q guild and we don't have assassins and brigands to compare to.  But honestly- you want to sit out of a raid and still get loot.  If you have these alts, why not play one then and contribute more? </p>

[Greggthegrmreapr]

<cite>Miroh69 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Borias@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>I would say it is the responsibility of your guild leader then to get your class there for loot drops.  If you do not want a monk on your raids period, why should they be getting loot then?  I'm sorry but if you feel your class isn't worth 1 spot on a raid, then you need to re-evaluate what your class can do, and make it your priority to shine and earn that spot then. </blockquote>   I am the leader and I realize what sitting a higher dps'er or more buff beneficial person does.  Thats why I choose to sit myself out if someone that can bring more to the raid is on.  And also note that connection was another reason I sit, read all before you try.   And I've been playing a monk for 2 years, I know what my class can do but I know what others can do as well and push come to shove a true dps class out parses in the right set up.  My alts are Brig, Swash and Conjuror and I know as far as dps is concerned, out of all 4...I am 4th.   I don't expect someone that gets into raids and helps out more than someone like me to understand where I am going with this.  Besides, what would a pvp'er care, your fabled set comes from tokens.....   Anyways, most cases...Monks are like the fat kids that are picked last for the team. </blockquote><p>PvP gear is sub par to EoF fabled sets.  well most of it.  The mystic sets suck in general for melee spec.  But anyway.  If you aren't being useful on raids, find a new tactic.  Monks can save a complete wipe.  Intercede on the tank, off tank adds, massive heal at that critical moment, Pulling.</p><p>If you aren't enjoying it, find a new way to do it, or roll something that is entertaining to you.  I took my monk on a pick up raid today.  Granted it was T5 Vox raid, and my monk was only 54, but I was off tanking the adds with ease in master crafted gear. </p>

[Miroh]

Denna@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>PvP gear is sub par to EoF fabled sets.  well most of it.  The mystic sets suck in general for melee spec.  But anyway.  If you aren't being useful on raids, find a new tactic.  Monks can save a complete wipe.  Intercede on the tank, off tank adds, massive heal at that critical moment, Pulling.<p>If you aren't enjoying it, find a new way to do it, or roll something that is entertaining to you.  I took my monk on a pick up raid today.  Granted it was T5 Vox raid, and my monk was only 54, but I was off tanking the adds with ease in master crafted gear. </p></blockquote>  Since this is so going off topic from the original post, About no certain class being in raid and no gear dropping to why I sit and what monks are good at I'll answer all that as well.   First of all...Guilds aren't made to only hold 24 members....yet raid zones are made to only hold 24 members...someone is going to sit and if that someone is the only one of his class and he's forced to sit..he's screwed.   As far as pvp goes, I have a 70 Brig on Nagafen and then I have the 70 monk on Befallen, the fabled set pieces are close for pvp.   And no, you are obviously reading what I am saying wrong which I have clearly explained above.  I sit myself out when someone else is on that can help the raid out more than I can.  I expect loot from time to time for when I am in the raid.  If I sit my happy [I cannot control my vocabulary] outside the raid zone or on an alt cause I camped out for someone...yes I do expect it if it is made for me.   And since you don't know about brigs and assassins...in a right group sure we can hit 1500-1700, whatever...how bout 2400+ like the true dps classes...it ain't happenin.   ***This is for Denna.    Monks are low on the usefulness, sure we can do alot of things but the things are minor.    1 - You want to off tank?  Screw that bring in a plate tank.   Btw...Using  the ability to tank adds that spawn from Vox is a bad example...   2 - Our 3 minute recast heal?  3 Minutes...all I need to say.  Is that saving a wipe?  Depends, too many variables.   3 - Pulling?  This isn't EQ1.  Grats we can pull with Tsunami and wards up.../pet attack..nothing more to say.   4 - Intercede? Grats, all fighters have it.   5 - Anti Death aa line?  None of our tanks want it cause they aren't use to FD and usually are slow to get back up.   6 - Our AA Avoidance Hate xfer?  Assassin, Dirge, Coercer and Swash all have better.   Now if you think these reasons above are just for being put in a raid and someone better sit...you need to re-look the class in every aspect instead of just small insignificant skills/abilities...   Only thing monks are in great need for is the Three Princes Encounter, anything else most plate tanks can handle better.   ***Now read this part before we go any further with the wrong assumptions again.    1 - I'm complaining about classes sitting and loot not dropping because none of that class is in the raid.   2 - I'm not complaining about monks in general, I am using their so called "Usefullness" as an example as to why I sit and why some guilds don't even have one on their roster nor do they want one for the reason's above.  And this could go for SK's as well...   3 - Can we stay on topic....Set pieces set to drop for those that are in the encounter.   Edit:  Ug, why can't anyone just follow the Original Topic any more instead of asking questions irrelevant to it...  

[Noaani]

<p>While it is good of you to sit out on raids for a class that is more benificial, dont you think it is also a good thing that loot that drops is going to go to a class that will benifit the raid more as well?</p><p>If you are not going to take your monk on raids, but other classes in your guild are going, which of these would you rather see get gear? With the change just made, your guilds main raid force will be geared up faster! How can you say this is worse than before?</p><p>By the time the majority of your raid has most of their class armor, your guild should have most EoF zones on farm status enough for you to be able to do it with 3 groups (if not by now...), so taking a monk along is not going to hurt your guild at all by then.</p>

[Miroh]

  Sigh, will never use me as an example again.  Not about monks, about classes that sit....

[Borias]

<p>Dude, really.  If a whole CLASS isn't good enough for you to bring on a raid, they don't deserve loot IMO.  I would be [Removed for Content] if I was on a raid and the supposedly weaker, sissier class loot dropped, when it could have been for somone that is admittedly more useful/productive.  Why gear up your 2nd and 3rd strings if you still need to gear up your primary players?  </p><p>Seriously man, it sounds like you don't want to kill the mob yourself, but get everyone else to kill it for you and then you swoop in and take loots.  F that.</p>

[Jrral]

<cite>Miroh69 wrote:</cite><blockquote>  Sigh, will never use me as an example again.  Not about monks, about classes that sit.... </blockquote>Seems to me you're choosing to sit it out. So choose otherwise. It's a two-way street: if the guild expects the members to help it, it'd better be willing to put a little into helping the members. If a guild isn't willing to help a member keep his characters geared up, I'd be looking for another guild by now. Yes, even if you <i>are</i> guild leader. It's a game. The point is to enjoy playing. When having the ideal uber raid roster starts getting in the way of players enjoying the game... it's time to remember that your goal was to drain the swamp, <i>not</i> kill alligators.

[Khurghan]

<cite>Miroh69 wrote:</cite><blockquote>  Sigh, will never use me as an example again.  Not about monks, about classes that sit.... </blockquote>I guess for all these guilds with <b>only </b>24 people in their roster <b>and </b>100% attendance it's not an issue. As for the thread /agree Miroh .... the lights are on but no-one is home... - Khurghan Ironstay

[Miroh]

Jrral@Unrest wrote: <blockquote> When having the ideal uber raid roster starts getting in the way of players enjoying the game... it's time to remember that your goal was to drain the swamp, <i>not</i> kill alligators. </blockquote> What does that mean?   And yes I choose to sit myself out for a more beneficial class as I have stated over and over.  If I am in raid and say a dirge, troub, illu, coercer, etc logs in, I will do whats best for the raid.

[SinIsLaw]

I need to agree with Miroh ... the change was only half thought through ... imho EoF raiding doesn't allow you to go with just 24 people into a raid zone, more then ever do you need to look at the line up of ur raid force! While during KoS you could raid with 6+ Tanks you would struggle that much ... Now your guild has all 6 fighter classes, do you really want to bring all 6 of them to each raid? Sure you could swapp in "the Crusaders" for the "brawlers" on some encounters where either classes loot is, but common fixing your raid to match loot drops is imho stupid! Also if you play Main x and alt y, and u play ur alt y cause the guild needs that class more then x, x is unlikely to see any gear ... and the times you can actually bring him it is still not guaranteed that you will see x class loot drop! So you are likely to see some Key classes beeing in full set gear, and that gear beeing brokered off - while other classes will be on 1 or 2 items ... This change has not really solved anything! All it did imho was pushing an existing problem back under the carpet, in 2-4 month we have the same problem again that most of the loot is not usable by a raid anymore, and this time they can't even hand it down to alts If there would be an easy way to let guild deceide what class loot they would want to have excluded from the loot table it would be awesome! Like when the raid zones in and does kill the 1st encounter the classes involved in the kill define the class loot ... After that the raid could be restructured to it's best effort ...  or anything that way ...

[Kizee]

<p>Yep, SOE dropped the ball on this "fix".</p><p>All they needed to do was put in a mold system that just dropped off the boss encounters.</p><p>I am a templar so I am always needed but I feel bad for the people that sit alot.</p>

[Krontak]

All the EOF content that drops class specific can be defeated with a Monk in raid, and an SK and 2 warlocks and believe it or not a Ranger with a Bruiser to boot albeit maybe not as efficiently, but it can.  Maybe at first you might need to optimize things, but lets face it, after you've learned the mob, all it takes is 10 minutes of focus and execution and most everything can be defeated.  Dropping gear for those that were in the fight was a good start but, until the random number generator is fixed, I still won't be satisfied.  Molds wouldn't have been a bad solution either but I think guilds would have already been decked out in set gear by now which probably wouldn't have been a good thing considering we've still got a long way to go till the next expansion.

[Miroh]

  Yes, every encounter can be killed with any type of person in the raid.  But as I keep stating...and will do so over and over again until people actually say "Oh, yeah...he is right" which some have, instead of this constant circle.   Once more, if I am in raid and the raid would rather another class to quicken things up, I will sit, if our conjuror doesn't log in, I will log on my conjuror alt.  The fact is, and will remain, no thought was put into "What if this class is made to sit"  Why would this be a question to look at?  Because guilds are made to hold more than 24 people but yet, raid instances aren't.  I don't think I can explain this any better...   With above stated, yes we could be able to 100% rely on people to have a constant 24 people on at raid time but alot of times, things come up.  And with that, you end up with more than 24.  I personally do not like to start raids late, I like to be zoning in right at 7pm est so we have more than 24 so we can.    But yes, every encounter can be killed with any one class in the raid, but does it mean it has to be done?  It shouldn't have to be but it is becoming obvious that this will be a deff. need.   So, can I stop explaining this and just have you nod your head and agree and look at it from another's point of view other than your own, and not think being a T6 monk off tanking Heroic adds makes you a good off tank?  Sorry, hitting earlier post.

[Stormcrest]

<cite>Miroh69 wrote:</cite><blockquote>   So, can I stop explaining this and just have you nod your head and agree and look at it from another's point of view other than your own, and not think being a T6 monk off tanking Heroic adds makes you a good off tank?  Sorry, hitting earlier post. </blockquote>I tried looking at it from your point of view... and still can't bring myself to agree. What you are asking for is the Monk Fabled class set that is intended for raiding monks. They do exist, even though they may not be as popular or beneficial as some classes in a Raid, so they should need the gear. If you aren't raiding with your monk, then why do you need raid gear. By your argument, being a heroic tanking/off-tanking Raid Leader should entitle you (or anyone else that fits the bill) to the gear needed by those actually "In the Raid Zone". Maybe I am misunderstanding, but it seems like the age old casual gamers vs. raiders & risk versus reward discussions. If you want the gear, and want to raid with the monk, create a rotation to give you a shot at it... or just wait until you are needed again in the future. Maybe you are saying you need the set gear to survive and make a role for yourself... if that is the case, how did anyone survive prior to the first drops? Tough it out and lean on your guild to help catch you up to be a 'good off tank'.

[Jrral]

<cite>Miroh69 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Jrral@Unrest wrote: <blockquote> When having the ideal uber raid roster starts getting in the way of players enjoying the game... it's time to remember that your goal was to drain the swamp, <i>not</i> kill alligators. </blockquote> What does that mean?   And yes I choose to sit myself out for a more beneficial class as I have stated over and over.  If I am in raid and say a dirge, troub, illu, coercer, etc logs in, I will do whats best for the raid. </blockquote>It means just what it says. You seem to want to play your monk, get him geared up and generally be able to enjoy playing him. You don't do that because you're leaving him out in favor of getting the absolutely ideal most-effective raid roster. So, what's your goal? If it's to get your monk geared up, then <i>put your monk in the raid</i>. If it means not having the absolutely ideal roster, well, the ideal roster will just have to take second place to your goal. If, OTOH, your goal is to have the perfect raid roster for the target, then you'll just have to accept that your monk cannot and will not further your goal and he'll just have to take second place. The question is, which is more important <i>to you</i>. Not to your guild, they aren't playing your character. And frankly, if your guildmates are any good at all, they'll be able to take up the little bit of slack that comes from having a non-ideal character or two slotted in. The only question is, is the guild <i>willing</i> to help a member in return for the help that member has given the guild?

[EasternKing]

you have the wrong idea here Miroh here is a copy paste of a dev explaining the change : __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __ Originally Posted by <b>Archonix</b> <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=15&topic_id=357276#4060967" target="_blank" rel="nofollow"><img src="http://eq2flames.com/imag...if" border="0"></a> Just wanted to clear up a few points about the loot changes: These particular changes were made to reduce the chance of single-class loot dropping when a class wasn't present who could use the item. We're aware of other issues in regards to loot distribution (The infamous Berserker Helm x12) and the existing issue of multiple drops of the same type will be looked at in a future update. With GU34, this change will only effect the chance of armor dropping from encounters that drop Legendary/Fabled Armor Sets in Echoes of Faydwer. I<u><b>n the event that no valid class is present, a random item will be selected (alts rejoice!)</b></u>. For those encounters that drop additional items other then armor sets; if an armor piece is rolled to drop, and no valid class is present, a random armor set piece will be selected. Additionally, there are safeguards in place to limit gaming the system. For example: Gathering up 23 of your closest friends who just happen to share the same class won't guarantee that you'll see that piece of armor you've been dying to get your hands on. __________________________________________________ _____________________________________________ so lets say you have 20 of 24 class's in a raid ...you kill a mob that drops hmm lets say  wiz/war....conj/necro ...ward/fury....defi/myst  you kill the mob ....it generates warlock ...checks vrs raid ....no warlock ...it randoms again on them 8 potential drops ....you still have a 1/8 chance it will generate warlock ..even though there is no warlock for mobs like wuoshi and mayong who drops 24class legs / bp .....it randoms ..generates ..checks ...no class ..it goes again .....thereis still the exact same chance of that drop coming up again ....the benefit of the new system is supposed to be that the chance of it randoming that drop twice consecutivley is low...but netherless   class not present still have a chance of loot.