Guide / Spoiler / Trick sites - use them? your thoughts... (UPDATED TO INCLUDE LIBRARY USAGE)

[Valdaglerion]

<p>It seems I see more and more postings about how some people are bored with the game or the game has become to easy. I wonder how much of this is due to the fact that each time new content is released they run to the various websites (of which I wont list to make the problem worse) and get the guides, how to's, quest walkthroughs with spoilers etc and quickly burn through the content with little to no challenge because they had it handed to them.</p><p>Let me be clear, I am not referring to the guides that explain the differences in your spells, the classes, differences in crafting or how basically to play the game. I am specifically talking about the sites that host quest walkthroughs that say:</p><p>(1) Start the quest by talking to npc x located in Antonica at 1,0,1 waypoint </p><p>(2) Go kill X number of Y mobs located at 5,100,5</p><p>(3) Return to npc x and enjoy your reward</p><p>So the question is - are you willing to cheat yourself out of your entertainment and subscription money to burn through content quicker so you can be the first or do you play the game for a sense of self accomplishment, pride and entertainment?</p><p>I am not looking for a flame contest or justification of their use just curious to see what type of player the majority of people in this community are. Many thanks for your thoughts.</p>

[Jesdyr]

My biggest problem is ...  placeholders and spawn times. I never use guides for single player games. With the nature of MMOGs it becomes very difficult to maintain yoru sanity. The problem is attempting to find "Bob the Orc" in a zone when "Bob the Orc" spawns 10% of the time at location x if "Frank the Orc" is not already there.  Let alone the issue where someone else is camping the spawn location because "Bob the Orc" also drops the fabled "Pitchfork of doom" making your chances of actually finding "Bob the Orc" about 1 in 10,000. Rightnow it can take hours getting 1 mob to spawn. This is with knowing exactly how to get the mob to spawn.

[Atria]

<p>I personally happen to like spoilers .. i dont use them all the time but it sure is nice to use when ya get stuck with a very nondescriptive clue to the next step " find someone u can use thing item " for example. [Removed for Content]? How am I supposed to have the slightest knowledge of who can use this darn thing or even have knowledge of it? </p><p>I belong to a very small guild with many of our members being of lower lvl toons. Quite a few of our members are new to the game.  I find that it is very helpful for me to be able to chase down what they need and not only that, to be able to say.. well, yanno, that quest has a lvl 40^^^ mob so i think we need to schedule a grp for it since I dont think that its solo-able on a lvl 22 inquisie. </p>

[PsiberDaemon]

I use the 'guide' sites for the mob locations.  nothing is more annoying than not knowing where specific mobs are.  I don't mind going to LavaStorm and killing 50 goblins, but I'd at least like a general idea of where they are located.

[Ithilmar]

Alla and the various other sites are decent for knowing if theres something not right with a quest, like the HQ for the Dwarven scale mail in Kelethin. I would never have known that two needed mobs share the same point with another set of placeholder mobs, and one set of those named is a rare spawn. Even with that knowledge it took me 3 hours of killing those groups before the final set spawned for me. Also there are heroic labeled quests that I've looked up and people listed solo mobs that counted towards the quest, which is helpful if I do not wish to party at the time. over all nothing bad about the sites, I much rather see the story, then worry about if I am being held up on a quest because of a lack of knowledge. Most sites I have come across don't have a good AQ listing, usually placing it under an other category with about 80% of the other quests in the game, and thus my character will usually stumble on AQs by accident, then go search them out to see exactly what I should be preparing myself for. No loss of story, but simply knowing at some point I will need to go dungeon diving, or Elite hunting at least lets me start contacting friends and asking for assistance ahead of time.

[Mantell]

<cite>Atria wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I personally happen to like spoilers .. i dont use them all the time but it sure is nice to use when ya get stuck with a very nondescriptive clue to the next step " find someone u can use thing item " for example. [Removed for Content]? How am I supposed to have the slightest knowledge of who can use this darn thing or even have knowledge of it? </p></blockquote><p>This drives me nuts. I'd love to play the game without having to check on spoiler sites but the fact is some of the quests are nigh on impossible without a spoiler.  Before they came up with the book over the head thing, finding the "right person" was a challenge. But even worse is when you need to go somewhere entirely random.</p><p>One low-level example that comes to mind is Hadden's Earring. Hadden tells you in step 3 or 4 that he might have lost his earring in the ocean somewhere. I don't believe he even says what zone. Gosh there are sure a lot of zones with oceans. The fact that you need to go to Commonlands and swim way out where nobody ever goes would be pretty hard to stumble upon.</p><p>The Dragon Language quest is also almost impossible without "cheating" and looking it up online. You need to go find 20 runes to learn the language. They are all located somewhere on Norrath. Somewhere entirely random. Good luck!</p><p>A more recent example is the most recent chapter of the SoD series, Knights in the Round where you need to find fifty(!) statues that are located in about 42 different zones. You're given a list of pretty vague clues which narrows them down to certain zones, if you can interpret the clues correctly. What part of the zone? Well I guess you'll have to check the whole thing, even in caves and behind buildings and don't forget to look underwater in the far back part of Everfrost.</p>

[Kaleyen]

I use the spoilers myself, but this isn't because I dislike following the lore or figuring things out for myself.  It stems from while I may enjoy working through a quest with no help from a spoiler I do not have the time to invest what might be hours to figure out a quest.

[RickinChicago]

I agree with what people have said.  I use them, when I get stuck.  I also use them to identify onteresting quests that I might enjoy doing.  This makes sense to me.  People have always relied on the writings of earlier explorers when heading off to see new territory. In RL I did a a fair amount of climbing when I lived in Colorado and I almost always reaerached the route  before heading out.   I justify research in-game from a  roleplaying perspective as doing reearch into scrolls or the like to prepare for a quest.  It does not necessarily make it less dangers, but rather helps lessen some of the major frustrations in the game.

[Polywogus]

I don't mind spoilers, provided I've really tried to think of/find stuff myself. If someone uses these sites, I don't feel that they won't have a sense of pride or accomplishment, because it's always dependant on what gives the person playing that sense. For some, it's completing, for others it's the puzzle of finding/figuring it out - & still for others, it's all 3.

[Illmarr]

<p>Like most so far, I use them when I get stuck.</p><p>But someone somewhere was smarter than we were, or else the quest would be unsolved and there would be no spoiler. </p>

[whytakemine]

<p>I use them all the time because I dislike quests, and only do them if I have to (for access to something I want, or a reward that's good enought to warrant the time wasted).  </p>

[Lakaah]

There are precious few quests that actually involve logical problem solving. Most of the time, its simply a matter of running around until you find the right location/mob/npc. Sometimes the description given from the quest is adequate, sometimes not. EoF quests seem better about giving me enough information to find it without 'cheating'. Anyway, since most of the quests don't really require thinking, just time, I figure if its going to take me much longer to find X than to look up X, I might as well look it up.

[Armawk]

<p>Given the nature of many quests in this game, I can only regard them as effectively impossible without information. A small percentage placeholder mob for instance, sometimes spawning in a totally illogical way/place, can, for me, be impossible to find. The same goes for some of the twisted convoluted chain quests where you only get told the end point (kill lord soandso which can be done only by engaging on a long series of actions in the area which wont be hinted at)</p><p>Of course SOMEONE is figuring these things out or there would be no help sites, but I find the time they must spend (I could imagine spending 12+ hours of game time to find one mob) and the surely necessary level locking (half the quests would be grey from mob killing long before I discovered the solution) unimagineable.</p><p>Of course after a long while with the game (and 20+ years of other games helps) you see patterns in quests, but for an inexperienced player its impossible.</p>

[Kaalenarc]

<p>I have to agree. Many of the quests are SO poorly written, and have no information within them to lead you to the next logical step. Try doing the Claymore line without a spoiler site. You cant. Many of the 20-something quests are not linked. You finish one quest and the NPC says "thank you"  - with no indication that you have to continue the quest four zones away at some other randomly placed NPC.</p>

[gaitano]

I use them regularly for finding quests to do, and when needed, for walkthroughs.  I find there are tons of quests and on my first toon found I was doing more green and grey quests as I didn't find them in time to complete them when they were blue or white. Now, when i hit a new zone, I look up the quests, run through and pick them up and then work my way through them, sometimes with help and sometimes without.

[Cele]

<p>I am addicted to getting as many quests done as possible; I lov eth story lines and how they make grinding seem more fun.</p><p>I use the various sites to sort quests by  zone and then compare them to my completed quests tab.  I have been known to go back to zones and do a ton of grey quests just for the fun of it.</p>

[Snerk]

I love doing as much as possible without needing to get help. I'm fairly new to the game, but I seriously doubt I will be going to any of those "help-sites" to get help or whatever. I don't play to be the first one to get something, I play to have fun. And without any challenges, its boring.

[EvilIguana9]

As others have said, for anyone but the truly hardcore using spoiler sites is almost a necessity.  The alternative is spending long periods of time practicing trial and error to figure out the cryptic solutions to the quests.  I don't like that spoiler sites are a necessity, I'd much prefer it if quests were straightforward and logical enough to complete using common sense and intuition.  Sadly that is not the case, and few players are willing to group for something as abstract as attempting to piece together the steps to a quest.  The quest I'm currently working on, called Stormhammer, is a perfect example of the problem.  It's hard enough finding a group to grind the stupid rare updates when I know exactly where to look.  Theres absolutely no chance I'd have even known this quest existed if not for the spoiler sites.  SOE made the choices that necessitate the help sites, not players.

[TuinalOfTheNexus]

<p>I think some quests are designed to practically require collaboration from a large group of players. The dragon runes, or the statues for SoD spring to mind. I'm sure if you set out to do this yourself with no information, you'd be looking at a week or longer of constant play, just on that quest.</p><p>When it comes to group quests too, you really don't want to have 5 people stood round while you scratch your head and lead them on a wild goose chase.</p><p>I think there was something to be said for EQ1 back in the day before Allakhazam and other sites sprang up, when you didn't even have an automap let alone a quest journal. Did make you feel like you might find some undiscovered quest any minute, and be the first to complete it. But I don't think realistically there's any going back to that era.</p>

[Raveller]

It's too bad the devs didn't think to make the libraries in each city useful places to go and do some research in-game, instead of, as usual for SOE, relying on other people to publish the information elsewhere. It's the same problem with non-cheat information, like the class and spell specific information you mentioned.

[dartie]

<p>Different folks see different aspects of the game as providing the challenge that they're after.  Some folks like to FIND the dragon; others just want to manage their gear and character advancement in such a  way as to be able to DEFEAT the dragon. </p><p>I'm sympathetic to the OP's position, but I think the people who complain that the game is too easy aren't talking about the same sort of things he's talking about.  Learning the way from Qeynos to Greater Feydark, for example, is something that many people who complain about the "ease" of the game have never bothered to do. </p><p>Maybe the problem is exaggerated on the Exchange Server (where I play), but it seems to me that the people who want the game to be "harder" generally want mobs that are more difficult to kill or fights that require a more intricate methodology.  The challenge to such folks isn't in <i>learning</i> that the coercer needs to blank just before the paladin blanks and that this will be the dirge's only opportunity to blank.  The challenge is in the <i>execution</i>.  </p><p>And that is why one encounters players on the Exhange who don't actually know how to get to Butcherblock Mountains unless someone ports them there.  They bought a level 70 character, and they love to raid, but they aren't interested in learning the layout of Norrath.  They just want intense fights that require a coordinated group effort.  </p><p>So if the question is whether sites like EQ2 Maps make the game "too easy" for such players, then I think the question mistakes what the players are looking for in terms of a challenge.  </p>

[mellowknees72]

<p>Personally, I use online help guides quite a bit...but I almost always try to figure out a quest on my own first.  If I've tried to complete it for a long time and just can't figure it out, or can't find a particular NPC or mob...I go right to the internet and look it up.</p><p>Having the fan-run online help guides at my fingertips has NOT ruined my play experience.  If anything, it makes it MUCH better because I don't have to spend hours pulling my hair out trying to figure out how to complete a quest.  I have very limited play time, so anything that makes it go more smoothly is a plus in my book.</p><p>I also use online guides to just read about quests that I haven't done or discovered.  If it weren't for many of the sites, I never would have known about some questlines.</p>

[Valdaglerion]

<cite>Raveller wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's too bad the devs didn't think to make the libraries in each city useful places to go and do some research in-game, instead of, as usual for SOE, relying on other people to publish the information elsewhere. It's the same problem with non-cheat information, like the class and spell specific information you mentioned. </blockquote> <p><span style="color: #ff3300"><b>Firstly, I would like to say thanks to everyone on this thread for staying on topic and offering constructive feedback. Many thanks!</b></span></p><p>The common theme which seems to permeate this entire thread thus far is that for the most part at some level the spoiler sites are neccesary because SOE has done a poor job in constructing the clues for the quest .Lets hope that SOE is listening and decides that in a game focused on questing perhaps the quests should be better written.</p><p>This particular suggestion made me scratch my head for a minute as the poster left it somewhat open to interpretation. What could this do, how would it work? I can see a few possibilities. To begin, I completely agree that the libraries and books in general in the game are completely underutilized.</p><p>As already identified earlier in this thread, there are many play styles of the game. Some people look to the guides to figure how where something is (lay of the land in a way), some people use them research (what are the possibilities), some people to determine strategy (how do I defeat X mob), and still others as way to understand the lore and figure out where to point their compass for the next clues.</p><p><b>So how should the libraries be re-structured to house information regarding the quest?</b> This has the possibility of allowing in-game collaboration between the players and would be available to all who seek the information (the passive spoiler and guide if you will. If you get stuck you can come to the library (again, players spending more time in-game than out I would think is a good thing)</p><p>I can see an implemenation where in the library the bookcases become clickable and open a window where you can perform a search (what are you looking for (Quest, Mob, General Geography, History of... (zone, people, mobs, etc), Strategy). Once you select a category of information you could type in the name of whatever it is in that category you are searching for. This seems somewhat straight forward. The question clouds when considered how the information would become available in the first place?</p><p>(1) Is the information provided by SOE (whom we have already determined does a poor job in writing) or contributed by players (could become hard to dicipher at some point if not edited occassionally and would require SOE to give us mechanisms to facilitate the entry of information)? I vote for player contributions.</p><p>(2) How would a new book be placed in the library? As players in the game discover information (find a quest, fight a mob, discover a location etc) an option becomes available in their journal "Add to library".  By keeping the base information added from this level you remove potential duplicates and Typos. The quest 'The Lost Legend of Lavastorm' would be added in the same way it would appear in your journal, keeping things easy to search for later. If the information already exist in the library you would simply get the message "A book on this topic already exist". Would be another cool factor and sort of discovery points if the person who originally contributes the book was named as the Author on the book for future posterity.</p><p>(3) How does information get added to the books? Well, I see this in 3 pieces, the beginning where it is only known that something exist, the end where all steps are known (as written by SOE) and the middle which is really what players need to contribute and that is how to get from the beginning to the end. With that in mind, when information is first uncovered you have the option to "Add to library" this only creates a blank book in the library and establishes you as the author (congrats on the disco) only if a book has not yet been established (maybe "Add to library only shows up if there isnt one in the library yet??). At each completed step of the quest you would have the option in your journal 'Update Contents'. This would enter that step of the quest into the book in the library (again, only available if that step doesnt exist already). This again, seems fairly straight forward as the information is being populated from what SOE already knows. Having the options only available if they dont exist reduces redundancy and time effort by the players to try to add something that exist and then get the message that "this book or this step already exist".</p><p>What about the middle portion? In order to reduce the amount of redundancy perhaps this needs to occur in the library itself. By clicking on the desk in the library a listing becomes available, consistent with the same categories of information you use to search. For this purpose we select Quest and then a listing of quest you have worked on becomes available. You would select a quest and then a step within the quest. "Update Narrative" as an option would become available. You could then see the narrative which already exist for that step and add additional information or locations as appropriate. This way you dont have everyone just dumping formation from the field into what becomes too much information to actually be useful.</p><p>For mobs it would be nice if after an encounter you had the option of adding the zone and waypoint along with the name of the mob to a book or books specifically for that zone or that mob type. I.e. "history of the goblins" could contain the locations of the various types of goblins and the various zones they are found in.</p><p>(4) Who would be responsible for editing ongoing information and how would that occur? This gets sticky. I dont see SOE putting in place additional staff to maintain this type of information or they would be running tip sites themselves. Perhaps some system based on factions could be put in place which allowed Ally Factions with the various to have editorial rights on the books based on their category??</p><p>Concordium: could edit quest Tunarian: edit mob locations Celestial: edit history and lore Fighter: edit strategy guide IronForge: edit books on crafting (something not yet discussed in this thread)</p><p>Players should not be allowed to edit any book for a mob, quest, etc they have not SUCCESSFULLY completed. Expansions to the journal could help facilitate this.</p><p>These are some basic thoughts of mine. As I mentioned earlier I think the poster of this response kinda left this open to interpretation. Additional thoughts, feedback, etc??</p>

[Lakaah]

The idea of player-edited in-game libraries is wonderful in theory, but in reality, the web-based guides would still exist, and I wager 95% of us would use them instead. Picture a player out in the middle of Feerott, getting stuck on a quest, and having the choice between travelling all the way to their city and back, or taking one minute to pull up eq2i.com. Perhaps if we could carry a magical tome that contained all of the library contents and read it in the field..

[Azzikai]

<p>I'm a big fan of /browser <a href="http://www.eq2i.com/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">www.eq2i.com</a> <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I don't get a quest then instantly look up how to do it but I'm not adverse to getting some help on things. There are a lot of quests that are pretty straight forward and others where, without some strategic markings on my in-game map or some quick checks elsewhere, would make zero sense. </p><p>I don't feel cheated by using guide sites, I haven't cheapened my play experience and I'm certainly not trying to rush through the game. I simply dislike watching quests go grey and having the actual difficulty level of the task become trivial because the quest text is worded badly or the mob(s) involved are some random rare spawn (/wave "One final task&quot<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. I've also found a lot of quests I wouldn't have known about via those sites. Quests that have turned out to be a lot of fun. </p><p>I wasn't in EQ on day one but when I did start, major quest lines were community efforts. The epic quests, in particular, were collaborative efforts and if it wasn't for the sharing of information I doubt people would have been able to finish a lot of them (seriously, have you READ the text of some of those things?) Same goes for EQ2, some of the quests really do need multiple pairs of eyes going over them, not to mention multiple sets of experiences and a wide variety of knowledge to know exactly where some places are. When those quests were initially completed there was a dialouge happening with others, now that information is written down. I don't see the big deal about using it.</p>

[gi]

<cite>Valdaglerion wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>It seems I see more and more postings about how some people are bored with the game or the game has become to easy. I wonder how much of this is due to the fact that each time new content is released they run to the various websites (of which I wont list to make the problem worse) and get the guides, how to's, quest walkthroughs with spoilers etc and quickly burn through the content with little to no challenge because they had it handed to them.</p><p>Let me be clear, I am not referring to the guides that explain the differences in your spells, the classes, differences in crafting or how basically to play the game. I am specifically talking about the sites that host quest walkthroughs that say:</p><p>(1) Start the quest by talking to npc x located in Antonica at 1,0,1 waypoint </p><p>(2) Go kill X number of Y mobs located at 5,100,5</p><p>(3) Return to npc x and enjoy your reward</p><p>So the question is - are you willing to cheat yourself out of your entertainment and subscription money to burn through content quicker so you can be the first or do you play the game for a sense of self accomplishment, pride and entertainment?</p><p>I am not looking for a flame contest or justification of their use just curious to see what type of player the majority of people in this community are. Many thanks for your thoughts.</p></blockquote> Interesting Topic Valdaglerion . <b><i> </i></b> I Personally will use the the quest walkthroughs for things like heritage quests and epic questlines. Which in my opinion are more often than not very vague in what is required. I do not have the time to spend days figuring stuff out. I fully respect those that do though. Oddly enough when I play DDO I do not want spoilers or quest hints as the quests there are well written and follow a logical progression more often than not. <b><i> </i></b>