What is meant by "players that know how to play their class"?

[Dragonlor]

<p>When making cross-class comparisons (mostly regarding DPS discussions), you often see folks write about a major difference being "players that know how to play their class."  Now I will never be and will never claim to be either the smartest person or most skilled gamer, but I guess I just don't understand this claim of player skill making such a difference.  What I mean to say, is that unless I am really missiing something, most class skills are fairly straight forward and self-explanatory and it does not take a genius to put them together.  Sure there may be some nuances with stuns, mezzes, and knock downs (not to mention knowing when to body pull and using taunts intelligently) and such but still....is it really that cosmic?  Maybe I just don't get it and I am one of the terrible noob players without even realizing it.  Could someone provide me some examples of what it means, specifically, for a Shadowknight, Paladin, or Zerker to play their class well in a given encounter?  Give me the situation and then the tactics used to elevate these characters (or any other classes that you wish to discuss) above their peers in the same class.  The bottomline is that I am looking for some facts to back up the player skill/knowing how to play their class comments I see everywhere.</p><p>Thanks!</p>

[JamesRay]

<p>Some classes are a bit more complex than the next, but for the most part it relates to common sense.</p><p>Maximizing DPS while maintaining aggro management, knowledge of synergy between class combinations or even the proper application of abilities (IE proper timing) can all be a factor in what defines a player as "knowing their class."</p><p>You will find that with particular classes such as illusionists/summoners/mages which tend to be a bit more fragile, a good player can exert much more control over their environment, whereas those who are less familiar with the extent of their abilities accomplish much less or spend a lot more time lying on the ground.</p>

[icaroz]

Only example I can think of is grouping with a player who's taken the time to play his char through the tiers, gradually learning the "best" ways to use his abilities in solo/groups/raids.. compared to someone who started his 12th alt and levelled it as quick as possible to reach 70.

[PsiberDaemon]

I think what they are referring to are players who know their class and know how to use abilities, etc... For example: a Wizard that casts fire spells vs one that casts debuffs on the mob THEN cast fire spells.  Another example: a Wizard that knows when to pile on the DPS and when to use lower end DOTs so as not to grab aggro.  Or, Wizards that know not to use AoE spells in close quarters (or when mezzers are at work) ... or remembering to cast 'Cure Arcane' on the Tank to break hostile spells. I use Wizards in the example here because that's my main toon.  Many of the situations I mentioned above are actual lessons that my character learned  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Maebus]

How about a tank that knows how to manage agro accross groups of mobs by changing targets quickly to throw the damage and taunts around?  Or turning the mobs so their scouts don't have to run into danderous areas?  Or when to use a buckler (when speced that way) and when to use a shield?  Playing a DPS I can clearly see and feel a difference between a poor, moderate, and good tank.

[KBern]

<cite>Dragonlord1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>When making cross-class comparisons (mostly regarding DPS discussions), you often see folks write about a major difference being "players that know how to play their class."  Now I will never be and will never claim to be either the smartest person or most skilled gamer, but I guess I just don't understand this claim of player skill making such a difference.  What I mean to say, is that unless I am really missiing something, most class skills are fairly straight forward and self-explanatory and it does not take a genius to put them together.  Sure there may be some nuances with stuns, mezzes, and knock downs (not to mention knowing when to body pull and using taunts intelligently) and such but still....is it really that cosmic?  Maybe I just don't get it and I am one of the terrible noob players without even realizing it.  Could someone provide me some examples of what it means, specifically, for a Shadowknight, Paladin, or Zerker to play their class well in a given encounter?  Give me the situation and then the tactics used to elevate these characters (or any other classes that you wish to discuss) above their peers in the same class.  The bottomline is that I am looking for some facts to back up the player skill/knowing how to play their class comments I see everywhere.</p><p>Thanks!</p></blockquote><p>Playing your class is a matter of pushing buttons.</p><p>Knowing your class is a matter of knowing when, and in what order to push those buttons.</p><p>It sounds simplified, but you cannot stress enough the need for someone to understand how their spells/CA's work, when to use them, when not to use them, and in what order they should be used to maximize whatever you are trying to do. </p>

[PsiberDaemon]

Saurakk@Guk wrote: <blockquote>Playing your class is a matter of pushing buttons.<p>Knowing your class is a matter of knowing when, and in what order to push those buttons.</p><p>It sounds simplified, but you cannot stress enough the need for someone to understand how their spells/CA's work, when to use them, when not to use them, and in what order they should be used to maximize whatever you are trying to do. </p></blockquote>Truer words were never spoken! Anyone can press buttons, like you said.  But to know what combinations have the best effects that takes a bit more skill...

[Jesdyr]

Saurakk@Guk wrote: <blockquote><p>Playing your class is a matter of pushing buttons.</p><p>Knowing your class is a matter of knowing when, and in what order to push those buttons.</p></blockquote> I like that answer <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Knowing you class is also knowing what your class's role actually is and not having the dellusion that just because you "can" spec one way, that you should spec that way. I have seen people making claims that they are playing DPS when they are a fury/bard/coercer/../..  ... These are not DPS classes. Yes you can Spec in ways to do decent damage, but you are NOT DPS classes. I play a coercer. I know the class extremely well for solo play. I am decent in groups but sometimes am forced to not use my skills as well as they could be because I know that most people have no clue what coercers can and cannot do. Even though I am normally solo (rightnow), I am mostly spec'd for my group role (power regen, CC, and debuff). Sure I could do some ok DPS if I spec'd out that way, but then I would not be nearly as effective in what my primary role is (control and power management). 

[Valdaglerion]

<cite>PsiberDaemon wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>Playing your class is a matter of pushing buttons. <p>Knowing your class is a matter of knowing when, and in what order to push those buttons.</p><p>It sounds simplified, but you cannot stress enough the need for someone to understand how their spells/CA's work, when to use them, when not to use them, and in what order they should be used to maximize whatever you are trying to do. </p></blockquote></blockquote><p>Well said...</p><p>I know you asked for specifics but I dont play fighter classes so cant help you there. What I can tell you is learn the subtleties of your class abilities and formulate strategies based on solo/group/raid and learn what works best in those scenarios.</p><p>One thing fewer people point out until you get into Raiding is know the environment you are going to be in and equip yourself for it. There are reasons different gear has different stats. Going into Everfrost with a lot of heat resist doesnt make much sense for instance. Knowing the mobs helps also, many of the mobs, while subtle sometimes, take consistently different damage amounts based on the attack types (the resist they have modify based on the damage type you are throwing at them). Maybe those points get too specific in nature but there you have my two cents worth anyway... </p>

[Nocifer Deathblade]

<cite>PsiberDaemon wrote:</cite><blockquote>Saurakk@Guk wrote: <blockquote>Playing your class is a matter of pushing buttons. <p>Knowing your class is a matter of knowing when, and in what order to push those buttons.</p><p>It sounds simplified, but you cannot stress enough the need for someone to understand how their spells/CA's work, when to use them, when not to use them, and in what order they should be used to maximize whatever you are trying to do. </p></blockquote>Truer words were never spoken! Anyone can press buttons, like you said.  But to know what combinations have the best effects that takes a bit more skill... </blockquote><p> Hehe. It's same analogy as ANYONE know how to pull the gun trigger to fire.. </p><p>It takes skill to AIM right and when to aim with proper willpower to do it.</p><p>ANYONE can steer the wheel in car easily even toodlers can.. It takes skill to DRIVE..</p>

[Oakum]

<cite>PsiberDaemon wrote:</cite><blockquote>Saurakk@Guk wrote: <blockquote>Playing your class is a matter of pushing buttons. <p>Knowing your class is a matter of knowing when, and in what order to push those buttons.</p><p>It sounds simplified, but you cannot stress enough the need for someone to understand how their spells/CA's work, when to use them, when not to use them, and in what order they should be used to maximize whatever you are trying to do. </p></blockquote>Truer words were never spoken! Anyone can press buttons, like you said.  But to know what combinations have the best effects that takes a bit more skill... </blockquote><p>This and more. As a tank, as others said, knowing how to pull, when you need to taunt continously and when you can save power for adds. Keeping an eye on your healers and dps health bars and having your rescue or other aggro stealing spells. As a palaidn knowing which dps to have amends on. As a SK, knowing and using deathmarch to keep/get back aggro if dps takes it. Simple things like letting the group know when you are about to pull and turning mobs. </p><p>I have seen monks and bruisers who have no problem tanking, switch targets with multiple mobs to keep aggro like others have said. I have seen some which are not so good only target the mob they are trying to kill and then have only try and get aggro on an add or a grouped mob when dps or healer starts getting hit. From what I have seen, those who play more then one character tend to know one better then the other. Also if they don't play one for a while, then their skills with that character diminish from lack of use after a whle. </p><p>One of the reasons I am not in to playing alts that much. Every time I play my warlock or ranger, I have trouble finding the heal icon especialy when i get down to the point where I need to either heal or run. What? Are you trying to tell me they dont have heals? Yes I know that perfectliy well right up unti the moment I start fighting , then forget as I enjoy the high dps until I notice I am low on health and have spent a few precious seconds looking for it before waiting too late to run.</p>

[doctorbow]

<cite>Oakum wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>PsiberDaemon wrote:</cite><blockquote>Saurakk@Guk wrote: <blockquote>Playing your class is a matter of pushing buttons. <p>Knowing your class is a matter of knowing when, and in what order to push those buttons.</p><p>It sounds simplified, but you cannot stress enough the need for someone to understand how their spells/CA's work, when to use them, when not to use them, and in what order they should be used to maximize whatever you are trying to do. </p></blockquote>Truer words were never spoken! Anyone can press buttons, like you said.  But to know what combinations have the best effects that takes a bit more skill... </blockquote><p>This and more. As a tank, as others said, knowing how to pull, when you need to taunt continously and when you can save power for adds. Keeping an eye on your healers and dps health bars and having your rescue or other aggro stealing spells. As a palaidn knowing which dps to have amends on. As a SK, knowing and using deathmarch to keep/get back aggro if dps takes it. Simple things like letting the group know when you are about to pull and turning mobs. </p><p>I have seen monks and bruisers who have no problem tanking, switch targets with multiple mobs to keep aggro like others have said. I have seen some which are not so good only target the mob they are trying to kill and then have only try and get aggro on an add or a grouped mob when dps or healer starts getting hit. From what I have seen, those who play more then one character tend to know one better then the other. Also if they don't play one for a while, then their skills with that character diminish from lack of use after a whle. </p><p>One of the reasons I am not in to playing alts that much. Every time I play my warlock or ranger, I have trouble finding the heal icon especialy when i get down to the point where I need to either heal or run. What? Are you trying to tell me they dont have heals? Yes I know that perfectliy well right up unti the moment I start fighting , then forget as I enjoy the high dps until I notice I am low on health and have spent a few precious seconds looking for it before waiting too late to run.</p></blockquote>All good things:  Regarding paragraph 2: here's where good players come into play.  Not only knowing YOUR class, but knowing that monks, for example, don't really have the same AoE taunts as a guard, for example.  So, not only knowing MY class, but abit about theirs as well helps.  I'll ease up on the AoE attacks, maybe.  Make sure I'm assist targeting.  Help the tank by keeping an eye on the healer.  Those sorts of things.  As far as knowing how to play ones class: yeah, debuffs before attacks, etc.  It's difficult to say what makes a good player, what makes one that 'knows' their class.  But when you run across a 'bad' player, even a lvl 70, you sure know it.

[Valdaglerion]

<blockquote>It's difficult to say what makes a good player, what makes one that 'knows' their class.  But when you run across a 'bad' player, even a lvl 70, you sure know it. </blockquote><p> Do I hear a "AMEN~!"</p><p>Unfortunately they are typically the ones you realize are bad players about the same time you realize you really do make a beautiful corpse.</p>

[Velsha]

Hmmm.. and here I thought it was just what snobby mmo players would tell people right before they themselves wiped in an instance.

[Oakum]

<cite>Velshara wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hmmm.. and here I thought it was just what snobby mmo players would tell people right before they themselves wiped in an instance. </blockquote><p>Although the phrase is used that way by some, most of us took it as an honest question about gameplay and not the way that some elitest players take use it as an insult to everyone they think they are better then.</p><p>Also they tend to use it after they brag about their equipment which obviously proves they are better then all players who's equipment is not quite as good. These type players seem to get upset more over accidental deaths/wipes like they were done deliberately just to make them pay a repair bill and as a personal insult to them. </p><p>"If you knew how to play your class, we wouldn't wipe" after lag causes a player to go to far and get aggro. Don't know how many times I have heard that in the last two years. </p><p>Hmm, maybe I am just being too harsh though, who knows. If that is the case let me know and I will sacrafice gnoll or orc to tunare and beg her forgiveness. lol.</p>

[Valdaglerion]

<cite>Velshara wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hmmm.. and here I thought it was just what snobby mmo players would tell people right before they themselves wiped in an instance. </blockquote><p> Nah, those are typically the same people that have trouble accepting personal responsiblity for anything that happens in life (virtual or real). It's always someone else's fault. Personally, I love learning the in's and outs of my toon and am always willing to share that knowledge with other players playing the same toons. Same goes for using the UI of the game and good quest which provide items to enhance your gameplay and make you a more valuable player to others in the game.</p><p>After all, the more good players we have in the game, the better chance I have of being in a good group <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Self serving? A little but when everyone wins who is goint to complain? /shrug</p>

[Finora]

Saurakk@Guk wrote: <blockquote><p>Playing your class is a matter of pushing buttons.</p><p>Knowing your class is a matter of knowing when, and in what order to push those buttons.</p><p>It sounds simplified, but you cannot stress enough the need for someone to understand how their spells/CA's work, when to use them, when not to use them, and in what order they should be used to maximize whatever you are trying to do.</p></blockquote><p> I don't think I've ever seen it explained better. </p><p>I have tons of alts, I love to play all of them, but the only character of mine I would even begin to think of  myself as playing well is my mystic main. I do well enough with my other chars, but most are pre-30, and I haven't played them enough I think to really get a good handle on all their strengths and weaknesses (other than the obvious pointed out by the spell/art text).</p>

[Jenarie]

I'll give you a good example of a "player that doesn't know how to play her class" starring myself as the newb. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I solo almost all the time but last night I teamed up with someone to do a heroic.  We pulled a group of mobs and stupid me hit my AE right off.  Hi cleric tank the rest of the encounter.  We lived because it was very easy - I actually was able to solo that wave when I tried it later - but I'm pretty sure it was not the way a player who knew what they were doing would have handled the situation. The only good thing I can say about it is that I learn every time I do something that stupid. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Ravaan]

<p>Basically its used by a failures who need to find some way to put others down in order to find happiness in thier miserable lives. It's used by the l33t mostly to try and show others how superior they are.</p><p>Really this game isn't that hard heck i will go so far as to say you don't need any skill to play this game. Put me on any class give me 2 hours to learn the CA/Buffs/Spells and I bet you wouldn't even notice a difference. In fact i did just that in less time, I have a healer and my buddy as a guardian i have his acct info so if something drops i can get it for him. This group i was in had 2 healers already and no tank so i thought about getting the guardian. I remembered reading the BS that most on this forum spew saying "oh its so hard to switch classes and know how to play it". First time I played the guardian and we flew through the instances without a death. </p><p>People asked me if i had a tank that i played and i told them just a low level SK (20). Now maybe I am just the greatest MMO player that ever lived because i was able to figure out how to play another class in less than a half hour ... but you know what I doubt it. </p>

[Controlor]

There are a lot of good players out there. There are a lot who know their class. There are a lot who dont know their class. And there are a loooooooot of BAD players out there. Like previously stated the bad players are EASILY noticable. Paladins get a bad rap for this. And i play an illy and have encountered many illys who dont know how to do something. For most part good enough players who knows the ins and outs of their class are willing to help others with the same class and not some elitist a hole. But i will agree its not hard to be a good player at any class they arnt all that dificult. The really dificult things are as also previously stated knowing when to cast what at what time and being very versatile and not loosing your head if something goes wrong. For tanks knowing a zone is key. Assuming they know their class well enough i would put a tank who knew the exact layout and pathing and mob placement of a zone over someoen who didnt (excluding tanks who this would be first time in that zone for because thats natural they dont know). Also knowing what other classes can do. So that you can coordinate and assist them to better both yourself and them.

[Zyphe]

<cite>Dragonlord1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>When making cross-class comparisons (mostly regarding DPS discussions), you often see folks write about a major difference being "players that know how to play their class."  Now I will never be and will never claim to be either the smartest person or most skilled gamer, but I guess I just don't understand this claim of player skill making such a difference.  What I mean to say, is that unless I am really missiing something, most class skills are fairly straight forward and self-explanatory and it does not take a genius to put them together.  Sure there may be some nuances with stuns, mezzes, and knock downs (not to mention knowing when to body pull and using taunts intelligently) and such but still....is it really that cosmic?  Maybe I just don't get it and I am one of the terrible noob players without even realizing it.  Could someone provide me some examples of what it means, specifically, for a Shadowknight, Paladin, or Zerker to play their class well in a given encounter?  Give me the situation and then the tactics used to elevate these characters (or any other classes that you wish to discuss) above their peers in the same class.  The bottomline is that I am looking for some facts to back up the player skill/knowing how to play their class comments I see everywhere.</p><p>Thanks!</p></blockquote> It's only a polite way of saying "someone who is not a freaking idiot."

[Dewlix]

Saurakk@Guk wrote: <blockquote><p>Playing your class is a matter of pushing buttons.</p><p>Knowing your class is a matter of knowing when, and in what order to push those buttons.</p><p>It sounds simplified, but you cannot stress enough the need for someone to understand how their spells/CA's work, when to use them, when not to use them, and in what order they should be used to maximize whatever you are trying to do. </p></blockquote><p>Simple, yet accurate...very nicely put!!</p><p> Knowing what spells/CA's to hit and when will make a huge difference (i.e. Hitting mobs with lower damage spells/CA's that have Debuffs on them, then hitting them with your bigger damage CA's...instead of just hitting em with your high damage spells) </p>

[MadTexan3]

You'll also hear that expression used by hardcore raiders who expect certain classes to have specific AAs for raiding. Needless to say, if you don't have the AAs they expect for your class--regardless of whether or not you are a hardcore raider yourself--then you don't know your class. <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[TaleraRis]

When it's not meant as a derogatory insult, I've always taken it as you know your class inside and out and you can react accordingly almost without even thinking about it. You understand your capabilities and limitations, and you take advantage of the benefits that you have and try to lessen the effect of whatever liabilities may be present. My ranger was always the less hardcore character, but I play an enchanter in EQ1. I played her actively from Kunark through Omens of War and have recently gone back. I had to relearn what the new versions of my class did, but even after 2 years away, it was like riding a bike. In groups my fingers automatically follow the right pattern for the situation, although I can react to my surroundings accordingly as necessary. It's that kind of thing. I've played the character and class so long and through so much that she always performs to the best of her abilities. When someone doesn't understand completely what their class can do, it's painfully obvious to those around them, because those around them have to pay for their mistakes, ie, when I get DPS who don't understand you should assist the tank and not break my mezzes without taunting, because the mob will come eat me. A DPS class in that position doesn't understand their role in the group and how they can fulfill that role, plus they haven't learned enough about other classes to enable them to fulfill that role. Someone who does know their class wouldn't make that sort of mistake.

[Kendricke]

<cite>JesDer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Saurakk@Guk wrote: <blockquote><p>Playing your class is a matter of pushing buttons.</p><p>Knowing your class is a matter of knowing when, and in what order to push those buttons.</p></blockquote> I like that answer <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Knowing you class is also knowing what your class's role actually is and not having the dellusion that just because you "can" spec one way, that you should spec that way. I have seen people making claims that they are playing DPS when they are a fury/bard/coercer/../..  ... These are not DPS classes. Yes you can Spec in ways to do decent damage, but you are NOT DPS classes. </blockquote><p>Yes, and I've seen those same classes performing their core roles as well as any other player...while adding in additional abilities over and above the norm.</p><p>Just because you personally have chosen to accept a narrower view of what defines a "class" doesn't mean everyone has to follow that paradigm.  Some of the most "skilled" players I know actually enjoy playing against such stereotypes.  They color outside of the lines constantly, and somehow still make manage to create a great picture.  </p><p>Remember, there's a difference between "core roles" and "additional roles".  Achievements never remove the ability for a class to perform a core role.  </p>

[azekah]

I'll give you a specific example: A coercer in a group charming a mob when there are 3 scouts in the group. Charming a mob takes up 3 concentration points and gives you an "ok" pet. It would be a much better use of concentration to give a dps buff to the scouts/tank. At level 42 I can give a dps buff of around 59. Another example: I was somewhere in Fay and I joined a group. At one point 3 or 4 of the group members wiped. The healer then started rezzing. When it was taking a while the healer said, my rez has a long timer, 2 mins or something. Now I have a 53 mystic and I know healing pretty well. On my mystic I have 2 rezzes, an in combat and an out of combat rez. The in combat rez has a long timer, but the ooc rez can be reused very quickly. So, I assume all healers have 2 rezzes like this. I say to the healer, you should have an ooc rez. He starts freaking out at me saying all this stuff like he knows how to play his class and other not so nice stuff. I try calmly explaining to him about my healer and that he should check his spell book but he still gets very angry at me. After a min he goes LD and I figure he left because he was “upset” that I was telling him he didn’t know [I cannot control my vocabulary] he was talking about. But, to my amazement he actually was LD and logged back in. And guess what, after a few more minutes he says, oh, I just found that ooc rez.   One more:   Was in a group in Permafrost and I was on my mystic and among some others there was a ranger in the group. Now if you’ve ever played a ranger you will know that they have some powerful ranged attacks that must be from behind. So we start going through the zone and the tank is not turning the mobs. Since I’ve played a scout class myself I know what this is like, so I mention to the tank that it would be helpful if he turned the mobs. No change. I say it again a little later and still, no change. I then take a look at his equipment and notice a lot of it is 10-20 levels below him. I’m not sure what his problem was, maybe he didn’t speak English or something. He wasn’t that bad at pulling, it was just difficult to keep him alive at times because of his low mit and frustrating that he would NEVER turn the mobs.   All in all, none of these examples would completely “break” a group, but it will make them much less efficient. Knowing more about your class makes you and your groups better. As said before, it is very helpful if you’ve played a lot of classes because you get to see dynamics of each and how they relate with other classes. As I’ve tried almost every class I have been able to gain a lot of info that is helpful when grouping with other classes. I also learn new things about the classes I play and the game in general everyday. I doubt there is any one person that knows “everything” about this game, the point is to have an open mind every time you play. I don’t want to admit how long it took me to realize that green spells were encounter attacks, blue were aoe, and red single target. Man that helped me out a lot once I realized that <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Kri]

Yeah, a big part of playing your class well is knowing how other classes work. In many cases that's the biggest problem. A person who knows his class every ins and outs, but makes life miserable for everyone when he encounters an unfamiliar class. There is quite a difference between healing/DPSing behind a Guardian and doing it behing a Brawler, just as an example.

[Solaran_X]

Coercers are a prime example of "knowing your class" when it comes to soloing. My baby Coercer is capable of, at level 26, engaging and winning against groups of white and yellow ^^ and ^^^ Heroic mobs and grinding them for XP. A clueless person playing a Coercer is going to spend a lot of time face down in the dirt. A person who "knows their class" playing a Coercer is gonna laugh at a lot of the "Heroic" quests and treat them like solo quests.