Are monks meant to raid or just solo?

[mr23sgte]

<p>My opinion is solo ................... /rant</p><p> It's so disapointing to always be benched for a better DPS debuff, plate tank class or utility class in raids. </p><p>I understand why, but ..................How do the rest of the Monks feel about our class in RAIDS only? Sure there are 3 encounters gamewide where monks do well tanking/off tanking raids, lets face the facts: group fd/fd to save 5 minutes of trash clearing or running from the revive point and the occasional heal to the Raid mt, just aren't enough. Ok I have group haste and can pull a mob sometimes....hmmmmmmmm</p><p>I love the Monk class despite the lack or raid utility - It just plain sux to feel so useless in raids when I am not on the bench cheerleading.</p>

[Harpax]

<p>The folks I raid with seem perfectly content with having me on board.  I've MT'd some encounters, off tanked some encounters, put out plenty of dps, scout ahead with feign flop etc.</p><p>If your raiding guild is all into min/maxing (which is a high potential seeing where you are from) you probably won't have any need for a number of classes in the game.  Fortunately the folks I raid with are into having fun and beating the encounters with what we have, not what its absolutely best.  Sure this means we don't beat the zones as fast as others, but I feel we get more out of each expansion</p>

[Bewts]

<p>My unguilded 70 monk gets told by multiple raid guilds to roll a Brigand.</p><p>We don't bring enough utility to a group in a raid or a defining skill to a raid that really solidifies our spot in a raid.</p><p>Haste?  Easily obtained</p><p>FD?  Repair Kits</p><p>Pulling?  Use pets</p><p>DPS? Any mage/scout is likely better</p><p>Tanking? <Insert Plate Tank Here></p><p>Hate Transfer?  Assassins, Swashies are better and do more DPS which = more hate transfer</p><p>I always thought the Bards were the jack of all trades, but even THEY have a good utility for a MT group, or DPS groups.</p><p>Monks in my opinion (and i've played one since pre-DoF), have little utility other than altruism to save a wizard/necro some repair costs on manaburn/lifeburns.  IF thats our only saving grace in a raid, I'd rather give the wizard/necro a repair kit have a dirge/pally rezz them and roll a brigand to add another 15 or so seconds of -3.3k mit of debuffs on all mits - ALL the while doing more DPS than the monk/brawler do.</p>

[Deathblade13]

With the right buffs I can consistently place in the top 5 or 6 DPS, so that's not really a problem, and with Mongoose Stance I almost never get agro, while most of the other top DPS do, mage or scout. However, you're right, most raiding guilds aren't gonna be looking for monks because we don't really have much to offer other than spawning traps and names, and being able to FD and Group FD.

[Cirth_Beer]

Designed for group/solo only i think. (I see no real interest in adding a monk to a raid force) I can ditch 1k5 dps zonewide if in a good group but what would be my dps if a rolled a dps class = much more, i cant tank epic (well i could on some but what the point ... we have perfect plate tank with really great aggro), pulling is pet job now ...  so humm <img src="/smilies/49869fe8223507d7223db3451e5321aa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> hey we got a 20 haste group buff ! <img src="/smilies/0320a00cb4bb5629ab9fc2bc1fcc4e9e.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Kota]

none of the classes were 'designed' to be solo classes.  it was stated before launch that eq2 uses an archetype system.  all the fighter classes were supposed to be able to fill the role of tank.  all the priest classes were to fill the role as healer.  etc.

[Colvain]

<cite>Harpax wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The folks I raid with seem perfectly content with having me on board.  I've MT'd some encounters, off tanked some encounters, put out plenty of dps, scout ahead with feign flop etc.</p><p>If your raiding guild is all into min/maxing (which is a high potential seeing where you are from) you probably won't have any need for a number of classes in the game.  Fortunately the folks I raid with are into having fun and beating the encounters with what we have, not what its absolutely best.  Sure this means we don't beat the zones as fast as others, but I feel we get more out of each expansion</p></blockquote><p>    I'm quoting you to acknowledge that some of us actually get to go on raids and such. But it is not the normal state of things. At least not on my server. Honestly compared to what some of the other classes bring to the game as far as raiding we are lacking big time. </p><p>  I know sony could do something to help out the current situation. But I'm not sure that would even fix the stereotype we have gotten. We are not wanted for our tanking we are not wanted for our dps. So what is our role where do we fit in. I like the Monk class I know that we could do well in raids we just dont get the chance too. It's very disappointing.</p>

[Kota]

we'll just have to wait and see what they decide to do with us.  like i said monks were originally designed to be tanked.  avoidance (after several adjustments) could not be counted on for the purpose of tanking.  now, we have better mitigation, and avoidance is just bonus imo.  you are bound to have a string of bad luck on a raid encounter and take higher spike damage that a plate tank.  i don't see them bringing our mitigation up anymore.  mine is close to 53% with just templar buffs.  a decent plate tank in the same group will have about 58%  (keep in mind i'm on a pvp server so we don't have pickup raids for DT) to be perfectly honest i'm not so sure we as a whole can't tank on a higher lvl (with some decent gear).  i've been reading alot of posts, and eyeballing damage intake on raids/in groups , and listening to healers.  there generally just isn't any faith in monks as tanks.  mostly stemming from ppl who played other games in which monks weren't tanks.  partly stemming from the fact that even with m1 taunts and max taunt aa's monks don't hold aggro that well.  i think defensive stance hurts dragon advance too much.  i really think focal serenity line should have some hp on it.  aren't we the only fighter class without a hp buff ? what's it gonna hurt to slap 200hp on our self buff ?  or make it a group buff so other ppl might like us.

[Shankonia]

<p>I raid.  Raided with my Monk for years.  I now raid on my Dirge.  I also love soloing.  I prefer to raid on both my Monk and solo on my Monk.</p><p>I consider myself to be a high end Monk as far as skill and gear goes.  In three years, I have only tanked during a raid once, and that was when I was the only tank available, and we only had two groups in Labs.  I did pretty well, but Labs is a joke so I discount it.</p><p>As far as DPS is concerned, I do pretty well.  I am AA specd for soloing, and can usually put up 1200 dps in a modest group, 1800 in an ideal group.  </p><p>So what's the problem some may wonder?  I have tanked some epics, I can dps pretty well.....<span style="color: #ff0000"><b>THE PROBLEM</b></span>, is that if we are going to do 1400 - 1600 dps in a raid on our Monk, usually, unless a healer is there in our place, <b><span style="color: #ff0000">THE OVERALL DPS OF THE RAID IS GOING TO SUFFER</span>.</b>  If I try to bring my Monk as opposed to my Dirge to a raid now, even when the other two dirges are already there, /cry /pout /whine /moan /complain.  That's what everyone does.  The reason is because we bring everyone elses DPS down as opposed to enhancing it.</p><p>Sure, situationally we do things that can potentially save the raid - like group feign death.  That extra overall 2k dps our raid would've had from some extra debuffs, buffs and the individual himself probably would've negated that group FD.</p><p>-------------</p><p>As far as soloing goes, we are far from the uber solo class we once were.  We have utility such as FD which is great, but we're nowhere near the top in overall ability to solo.  </p>

[Vandiyan]

<cite>Shankonia wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>As far as DPS is concerned, I do pretty well.  I am AA specd for soloing, and can usually put up 1200 dps in a modest group, 1800 in an ideal group.  </p></blockquote>Just wondering what armour and weapons you were using to get your DPS up to 1800 on a T7 raid.  Also what was your group setup?  Not saying that this can't be done but just wanting to know what I am lacking as I can maybe top out at 1200 for a few mobs but don't come close to that zone wide.  I must be doing something VERY WRONG.

[Kanlei]

I have no idea why anyone thinks monks cant raid? I raid with my monk over my conj and will continue to do so. 1. In a group with a Zerker, Paladin, Mystic, Monk(myself), Corecer, and a Templar, I do RAID AVG of 1100-1200 2. In a group with Two rangers, Inquis, Monk(myself), Dirge and either a Wizzy or brig I do RAID AVG of 1400+ IF and i mean IF we dont wipe over and over. 3. I use fist of bashing in main hand and wurmslayer in the other, I have relic pants and relic chest piece I'm specd for craneflock which has proven to me to be very very useful in most EoF raid encounters. 4. I can peel a mob off a healer/scout/mage faster than any other tank which may or may not save the raid due to a noob taking aggro, I can then FD the mob back to the MT which has proved very useful. 5. I cant tell you how many traps I have to trigger, I pull a good bit of mobs as well. No we dont have a great buffs for the entire raid but if you can learn to play your monk you can do very respectful dps and if needed hit Tsunami and outward calm and tank a mob while things get back under control, I highly suggest not giving up on your monk they are very good in raids you just have to prove it to most people.

[Ganeden]

I'm a bruiser and I can see why you guys are frustrated. I'm the only brawler main in my guild and I work very hard to keep my spot in raids. We dont have a defined role. We can do OK dps (im generally 5-8 spot with around 1.3kdps), we can't tank and we're not needed for pulling. My only real contribution besides dps is a group dps buff and a 50 point slash/crush/peirce/range debuff. I dont think the devs will ever get avoidance tanking right, I'd rather just have them nerf our tanking ability and increase our dps (or just increase the dps in the next exspansion and leave the tanking where it is). We're a halfsie class with no utility in raids. Sure, I can solo well or tank in a regular group but now that im level 70 I only solo for quests or group for a certain item. I'm mostly on raids and I want a real role.

[Couching]

<cite>Kanlei wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have no idea why anyone thinks monks cant raid? I raid with my monk over my conj and will continue to do so. 1. In a group with a Zerker, Paladin, Mystic, Monk(myself), Corecer, and a Templar, I do RAID AVG of 1100-1200 2. In a group with Two rangers, Inquis, Monk(myself), Dirge and either a Wizzy or brig I do RAID AVG of 1400+ IF and i mean IF we dont wipe over and over. 3. I use fist of bashing in main hand and wurmslayer in the other, I have relic pants and relic chest piece I'm specd for craneflock which has proven to me to be very very useful in most EoF raid encounters. 4. I can peel a mob off a healer/scout/mage faster than any other tank which may or may not save the raid due to a noob taking aggro, I can then FD the mob back to the MT which has proved very useful. 5. I cant tell you how many traps I have to trigger, I pull a good bit of mobs as well. No we dont have a great buffs for the entire raid but if you can learn to play your monk you can do very respectful dps and if needed hit Tsunami and outward calm and tank a mob while things get back under control, I highly suggest not giving up on your monk they are very good in raids you just have to prove it to most people. </blockquote>Your dps number seems about right. It's much probable than someone who claimed he can get 1500+ dps with a legendary 2h weapon and less buffs. Though, I have different opinion on number 4. In KoS raid, everyone can focus on damage except main tank. There are only few raids which needs off tank. However, in most EoF raids, there are two adds in each wave during the fights. We are not even a good off tank for adds. Monk has only 1 encounter taunt and 1 single target taunt. Even with 2 adds, we have problem to locked them down. Since adds will cast aoe stun or aoe DD or just hit hard , we need to kill adds asap. Don't tell me that dpsers have to hold their damage and let me build aggro. It's impossible for monk to hold 2 adds off casters who have great burst damages. Moreover, in some cases, it's healers who got aggro. Monk didn't have enough burst damage to even taunt mobs off healers right away. I can foresee that in the future expansion, adds in each wave will be more for harder encounters. If we can't get something new for holding aggro. We are pretty useless as an off tank who can lock down only 1 add at same time.

[Anjin]

<p>"4. I can peel a mob off a healer/scout/mage faster than any other tank which may or may not save the raid due to a noob taking aggro, I can then FD the mob back to the MT which has proved very useful."</p><p>Guardians are BY FAR the best tanks at pulling back aggro.  Secondly, who's to say the MT would have gained sufficient aggro to be #2 in the hate table for that mob when you fd?  it might very well still be the "noob" getting the aggro in the 1st place.</p><p>"5. I cant tell you how many traps I have to trigger, I pull a good bit of mobs as well."</p><p>Yep, Monks are great with traps, but how many raid zones have loads of traps apart from DT?  Other raid zones have them, but not in any great numbers. </p><p>The major point here is that yes, Monks can raid and do respectable DPS, but you can swap a Monk out with a true DPS class or a semi DPS class that offers more group buffs and increase the overall raidwide DPS.  Think about your 2nd group - if you were swapped with a zerker, the zerker would do roughly the same amount of DPS as you (on an average zone - lots of multi mob encounters and the zerker would out dps the monk) but the rangers, dirge and brig would all benefit a lot more by having the STR & Berserk group buffs.</p>

[Kanlei]

Well I'm sorry that most of you think Monks are useless on a raid, pitty really.  Sure you can swap us out for a better dpser, and do what???? Kill the mob 5 secs faster??  Monks are very useful, if needed can heal MT for half of his health which is usually around 5-6k of hps dont think a scout can do that, can take a beating from a good bit of mobs, dont think casters can do that.   It really is a shame that the useless monk isnt needed, glad I'm in the guild I'm in then cause I'm well used and well respected for my class and the ability to play him, and no I'm not god I'm not the best but I keep finding or trying to find ways to improve what I'm doing.  If you want to drop your Monk to play a sissy caster go for it, want to dump him for a scout that cant solo/keep aggro at bay go for it.  I'll stick with my monk and contiune to enjoy the brawler class<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.  I do agree we need a little more such as better group aggro or even a ranged attack(mantis star doesnt count), but we prove to be more useful than most of you believe.

[Vandiyan]

I usually get stuck in a not so great set up so that could be why my numbers are a little lower then normal.  I too am happy that I am in a guild / alliance that doesn't mind bringing a monk along.<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[PantherXX]

<cite>Kanlei wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have no idea why anyone thinks monks cant raid? I raid with my monk over my conj and will continue to do so. 1. In a group with a Zerker, Paladin, Mystic, Monk(myself), Corecer, and a Templar, I do RAID AVG of 1100-1200 2. In a group with Two rangers, Inquis, Monk(myself), Dirge and either a Wizzy or brig I do RAID AVG of 1400+ IF and i mean IF we dont wipe over and over. 3. I use fist of bashing in main hand and wurmslayer in the other, I have relic pants and relic chest piece I'm specd for craneflock which has proven to me to be very very useful in most EoF raid encounters. 4. I can peel a mob off a healer/scout/mage faster than any other tank which may or may not save the raid due to a noob taking aggro, I can then FD the mob back to the MT which has proved very useful. 5. I cant tell you how many traps I have to trigger, I pull a good bit of mobs as well. No we dont have a great buffs for the entire raid but if you can learn to play your monk you can do very respectful dps and if needed hit Tsunami and outward calm and tank a mob while things get back under control, I highly suggest not giving up on your monk they are very good in raids you just have to prove it to most people. </blockquote><p>Frankly, you are crazy if you try to justify raiding with your monk over your conj.  In every single way except actually tanking, the conj is better for the raid.  Top-of-the-parse dps if played correctly, some decent buffs, and nice utility with shards.  The only role we seem slightly designated to play is that of OT, but our inability to to grab and hold group agro makes us a poor choice in most EoF raids.</p><p>YOU may have FUN playing and raiding with your monk (for the record, so do I), but none of the things you have listed is a valid reason to play your monk over your conj (or nearly any other class for that matter) in a raid.  To me, the real proof lies in the fact that virtually no top-of-the-line raiding guild is using monks.  Most at least have a bruiser (probably for drag, little better mit, and better burst DPS), but a number don't even have a single monk on their roster (NPU, Disso, and Strike come to mind immediately).  I have a hard time beleiving that groups of the best, most knowledgable players in the game are just completely clueless about monks and just don't understand them.  If there was a reason or justification for monks, these guilds would be using it.  Hell, Strike gave the brawler weapon from contested Mayong to an ALT - that's how much they "value" us!</p><p>And as for your comment on playing a scout in the later post ... brigs, rangers, and swashies can solo at least as well as us and all have better agro transfer and deagros.  The only reason they have more agro problems than us is that they deal more damage than us.   </p><p>We shouldn't have to find a guild that doesn't mind bringing us along.  There should be a reason for us to be there.</p>

[Bewts]

<cite>PantherXX wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>We shouldn't have to find a guild that doesn't mind bringing us along.  There should be a reason for us to be there.</p></blockquote> amen

[Xyaliaa]

<cite>PantherXX wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kanlei wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have no idea why anyone thinks monks cant raid? I raid with my monk over my conj and will continue to do so. 1. In a group with a Zerker, Paladin, Mystic, Monk(myself), Corecer, and a Templar, I do RAID AVG of 1100-1200 2. In a group with Two rangers, Inquis, Monk(myself), Dirge and either a Wizzy or brig I do RAID AVG of 1400+ IF and i mean IF we dont wipe over and over. 3. I use fist of bashing in main hand and wurmslayer in the other, I have relic pants and relic chest piece I'm specd for craneflock which has proven to me to be very very useful in most EoF raid encounters. 4. I can peel a mob off a healer/scout/mage faster than any other tank which may or may not save the raid due to a noob taking aggro, I can then FD the mob back to the MT which has proved very useful. 5. I cant tell you how many traps I have to trigger, I pull a good bit of mobs as well. No we dont have a great buffs for the entire raid but if you can learn to play your monk you can do very respectful dps and if needed hit Tsunami and outward calm and tank a mob while things get back under control, I highly suggest not giving up on your monk they are very good in raids you just have to prove it to most people. </blockquote><p>Frankly, you are crazy if you try to justify raiding with your monk over your conj.  In every single way except actually tanking, the conj is better for the raid.  Top-of-the-parse dps if played correctly, some decent buffs, and nice utility with shards.  The only role we seem slightly designated to play is that of OT, but our inability to to grab and hold group agro makes us a poor choice in most EoF raids.</p><p>YOU may have FUN playing and raiding with your monk (for the record, so do I), but none of the things you have listed is a valid reason to play your monk over your conj (or nearly any other class for that matter) in a raid.  To me, the real proof lies in the fact that virtually no top-of-the-line raiding guild is using monks.  Most at least have a bruiser (probably for drag, little better mit, and better burst DPS), but a number don't even have a single monk on their roster (NPU, Disso, and Strike come to mind immediately).  I have a hard time beleiving that groups of the best, most knowledgable players in the game are just completely clueless about monks and just don't understand them.  If there was a reason or justification for monks, these guilds would be using it.  Hell, Strike gave the brawler weapon from contested Mayong to an ALT - that's how much they "value" us!</p><p>And as for your comment on playing a scout in the later post ... brigs, rangers, and swashies can solo at least as well as us and all have better agro transfer and deagros.  The only reason they have more agro problems than us is that they deal more damage than us.   </p><p>We shouldn't have to find a guild that doesn't mind bringing us along.  There should be a reason for us to be there.</p></blockquote>i agree with this post 100%

[Nerill]

<cite>PantherXX wrote:</cite><blockquote>Kanlei wrote: <p>Frankly, you are crazy if you try to justify raiding with your monk over your conj.  In every single way except actually tanking, the conj is better for the raid.  Top-of-the-parse dps if played correctly, some decent buffs, and nice utility with shards.  The only role we seem slightly designated to play is that of OT, but our inability to to grab and hold group agro makes us a poor choice in most EoF raids.</p><p>YOU may have FUN playing and raiding with your monk (for the record, so do I), but none of the things you have listed is a valid reason to play your monk over your conj (or nearly any other class for that matter) in a raid.  To me, the real proof lies in the fact that virtually no top-of-the-line raiding guild is using monks.  Most at least have a bruiser (probably for drag, little better mit, and better burst DPS), but a number don't even have a single monk on their roster (NPU, Disso, and Strike come to mind immediately).  I have a hard time beleiving that groups of the best, most knowledgable players in the game are just completely clueless about monks and just don't understand them.  If there was a reason or justification for monks, these guilds would be using it.  Hell, Strike gave the brawler weapon from contested Mayong to an ALT - that's how much they "value" us!</p><p>And as for your comment on playing a scout in the later post ... brigs, rangers, and swashies can solo at least as well as us and all have better agro transfer and deagros.  The only reason they have more agro problems than us is that they deal more damage than us.   </p><p>We shouldn't have to find a guild that doesn't mind bringing us along.  There should be a reason for us to be there.</p></blockquote><span style="color: #ff0000">^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ JUST READ THAT ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ THAT SAYS IT ALL QUITE CLEARLY ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^</span>

[Jobeson]

raiding as a monk... there are only a few things we can do better than others. First is off tanking single target mobs.  If someone pulls agro off the MT who is focusing on multiple mobs or even on a boss who memwipes, mezes, or whatever the case is a monk can pick up agro and hold it easily for the full 12 seconds.  Secondly is healing the MT monks have heals that break 7k hp healed depending on your tank this saves the raid on many occasions, and when truly needed we can pick the mob off the MT in tsunami and have an effective 12 second intercede for the MT. Third we can tank, sadly it requires good armor but it can be done for single target mobs just fine, more than one mob it is a joke but for single targets it is fine.  We do need more for raids to be useful but we are not far off from being decent.  A well played monk like any other well played class can be valuable.   The "Monks need a boost" thread has a few decent ideas.  My personal one is allow monks to buff other players with our str/wis buff and bruisers with their str/agi buff.   Other good ideas from the thread were to turn devastation into a % of hp for epic mobs which would up dps and allow for a nice finishing blow move for monks to use on harder fights and various improvements to the combination AA. 

[Colvain]

<cite>Bewts wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>PantherXX wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>We shouldn't have to find a guild that doesn't mind bringing us along.  There should be a reason for us to be there.</p></blockquote> amen</blockquote> <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Bewts]

<p>I've concluded the way to sneak into a raid as a monk is to get yourself Altruism, throw it on a extremely high DPS class IE Necro with lifeburn for example, get yourself the de-threat AA's from the EoF line and do your 600 DPS.  You won't parse high on the raids by a long shot, but you'll allow that necro/wizard/warlock et all do do their 2k+ dps with impunity.</p><p>Thats the state of a monk looking to join/raid with a min/max raid guild.</p><p>I would also like to comment I saw [Removed for Content] of a serverfirst Reinforced Slippers of Balance (server disco at least from the SS) that has Frenzy V and Stone Stance (10% chance on taking damage to absorb 2 physical attacks) that are leather with 311 Mit go to a Dirge.  *sadness*</p>

[PantherXX]

<cite>Bewts wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I've concluded the way to sneak into a raid as a monk is to get yourself Altruism, throw it on a extremely high DPS class IE Necro with lifeburn for example, get yourself the de-threat AA's from the EoF line and do your 600 DPS.  You won't parse high on the raids by a long shot, but you'll allow that necro/wizard/warlock et all do do their 2k+ dps with impunity.</p><p>Thats the state of a monk looking to join/raid with a min/max raid guild.</p><p>I would also like to comment I saw [Removed for Content] of a serverfirst Reinforced Slippers of Balance (server disco at least from the SS) that has Frenzy V and Stone Stance (10% chance on taking damage to absorb 2 physical attacks) that are leather with 311 Mit go to a Dirge.  *sadness*</p></blockquote> The best leather boots and chest drop from avatars and are wearable by scouts.  The only way I will get them is once every scout with more DKP than me takes them.  *much sadness*

[Bewts]

Aye, such are the drawbacks of DKP versus other loot handling systems.  But that would derail this thread too much.

[Couching]

<cite>PantherXX wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bewts wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I've concluded the way to sneak into a raid as a monk is to get yourself Altruism, throw it on a extremely high DPS class IE Necro with lifeburn for example, get yourself the de-threat AA's from the EoF line and do your 600 DPS.  You won't parse high on the raids by a long shot, but you'll allow that necro/wizard/warlock et all do do their 2k+ dps with impunity.</p><p>Thats the state of a monk looking to join/raid with a min/max raid guild.</p><p>I would also like to comment I saw [Removed for Content] of a serverfirst Reinforced Slippers of Balance (server disco at least from the SS) that has Frenzy V and Stone Stance (10% chance on taking damage to absorb 2 physical attacks) that are leather with 311 Mit go to a Dirge.  *sadness*</p></blockquote> The best leather boots and chest drop from avatars and are wearable by scouts.  The only way I will get them is once every scout with more DKP than me takes them.  *much sadness*</blockquote>It doesn't make any sense to let scouts loot boots first. The reason that scouts did more damage than brawler is mainly from their combat arts and Dps mod didn't effect combat arts. Moreover, most scouts have permanent or temp dps buff and they will be in melee dps group in raid. Once you have 100+ dps mod, it won't help you much. A monk can use it much better since we don't have any permanent/temp dps buff and rarely in melee dps group.

[mr23sgte]

<cite>PantherXX wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kanlei wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have no idea why anyone thinks monks cant raid? I raid with my monk over my conj and will continue to do so. 1. In a group with a Zerker, Paladin, Mystic, Monk(myself), Corecer, and a Templar, I do RAID AVG of 1100-1200 2. In a group with Two rangers, Inquis, Monk(myself), Dirge and either a Wizzy or brig I do RAID AVG of 1400+ IF and i mean IF we dont wipe over and over. 3. I use fist of bashing in main hand and wurmslayer in the other, I have relic pants and relic chest piece I'm specd for craneflock which has proven to me to be very very useful in most EoF raid encounters. 4. I can peel a mob off a healer/scout/mage faster than any other tank which may or may not save the raid due to a noob taking aggro, I can then FD the mob back to the MT which has proved very useful. 5. I cant tell you how many traps I have to trigger, I pull a good bit of mobs as well. No we dont have a great buffs for the entire raid but if you can learn to play your monk you can do very respectful dps and if needed hit Tsunami and outward calm and tank a mob while things get back under control, I highly suggest not giving up on your monk they are very good in raids you just have to prove it to most people. </blockquote><p>Frankly, you are crazy if you try to justify raiding with your monk over your conj.  In every single way except actually tanking, the conj is better for the raid.  Top-of-the-parse dps if played correctly, some decent buffs, and nice utility with shards.  The only role we seem slightly designated to play is that of OT, but our inability to to grab and hold group agro makes us a poor choice in most EoF raids.</p><p>YOU may have FUN playing and raiding with your monk (for the record, so do I), but none of the things you have listed is a valid reason to play your monk over your conj (or nearly any other class for that matter) in a raid.  To me, the real proof lies in the fact that virtually no top-of-the-line raiding guild is using monks.  Most at least have a bruiser (probably for drag, little better mit, and better burst DPS), but a number don't even have a single monk on their roster (NPU, Disso, and Strike come to mind immediately).  I have a hard time beleiving that groups of the best, most knowledgable players in the game are just completely clueless about monks and just don't understand them.  If there was a reason or justification for monks, these guilds would be using it.  Hell, Strike gave the brawler weapon from contested Mayong to an ALT - that's how much they "value" us!</p><p>And as for your comment on playing a scout in the later post ... brigs, rangers, and swashies can solo at least as well as us and all have better agro transfer and deagros.  The only reason they have more agro problems than us is that they deal more damage than us.   </p><p>We shouldn't have to find a guild that doesn't mind bringing us along.  There should be a reason for us to be there.</p></blockquote><p>Wow, my rant got alot of reponses................. this poster is 100% correct. </p><p> I love my monk period and I do ok DPS at raids 1200-1400 ZW, but why have "ok" DPS when you can have debuffs, hate transfers and group buffs. Thats the frustrating part for me - I have been fortunate enough to be on Mayong and Wuoshi kills thx to my raid leader having a monk alt and understanding - BUT guess who the 1st one is to sit-out when a "needed" class is necessasry. </p>

[Bewts]

We are the bards of the scout class... without the utility -- that would make us a ranger without any dps... wait that would make us not dps, not utility, not a tank.  I think that makes us heroic tanks then?  I'm confused -- Sony, what exactly are we?  Playing Left Out currently.

[Ganeden]

<cite>Kanlei wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sure you can swap us out for a better dpser, and do what???? Kill the mob 5 secs faster??  </blockquote><p>I know this was tounge in cheek but it's dead on, more dps means you can kill the mobs faster. Once you start the progression through raid zones, mobs get harder and harder and the difference between 16k dps and 17k dps is the difference between a wipe and sucess. Once you get to the truely end game mobs you need to maximize every raid position or you'll wipe, exspecially with dps.</p><p> On pick up raids and causual guilds it doesn't really matter because you're not going to be raiding anything that requires really high dps. But if you want to get to the end game good luck finding a guild that wants you. I'm the only brawler main in my guild (im a bruiser) and I have to fight hard to not be forced to sit out the next raid.</p><p> It's not just our dps, its our total lack of raid utility. We have one group buff that isn't that important and as a bruiser I have a good avoidance buff, but I would never be in the MT group so I wouldn't be able to cast it on anyone who matters.</p><p> In the end we either need more dps or we need some serious ultility. The sky isn't falling yet, we can still do decent dps with masters and class equipment, but I fear that if we continue down this road in future exspansions we'll become less and less useful and fall off the board completely.</p>

[Zutan]

<p>My guild will often drop a ranger to make room for a needed class rather than their Last monk.. however if we have 2 more more monks one of the monks will have to go if we have a required class waiting for raid.  </p><p>We monks are used in situations where we can FD off adds, scout ahead and aquire targets etc.  I DO think we need more utility in raids.  Group haste is nice, but that really only justifies one monk for the raid (melee dps group).  I stay pretty high up on the DPS list but even that isnt consistent.</p>

[Traxor789]

<p>First off i would like to say gratz to all the monks on random servers that parse top 5 or 6 on the 13-14k raid dps parses that your talking about. Your probably not that bad of a monk at all. Dont get me wrong. But if your classes arnt putting up the following numbers they are NOT, one of the top dps's of their class. Your judging a skilled monk im guessing vs horable players.</p><p>Swashbuckler 2200-2500</p><p>Ranger 2600-3600</p><p>Assassin 1900- 2200</p><p>Conjuror 2000-2600</p><p>Necromancer 2200-2800</p><p>Brigand 1800- 2200</p><p>Illusionist 1500-2100</p><p>Coercer(not ususally dps specd) 1100-1500</p><p>A monk can easily put up around 1100 to 1600 dps if ur lucky. See where monk dps falls in comparison to other classes. FFS our bards are puting up at least 1100 dps. This is what im talking about. Some times its all about player skill. No matter how much skill you have as a monk. Give other people the buffs you wold have to get to hit some of these classes Min. and they would hit over the max I just listed.</p><p>IF not dps. buffs, if not buffs special skills.</p><p>Or why dont you keep your pride with nothing and continue to be useless.</p>

[Kanlei]

First off I didnt have to find a guild that would take me.  I played my conj got tired of being a caster and made a monk, they respected that change.  Who really cares if NPU and blah blah blah doesnt have a monk?  I sure in the hell dont.  I'm here to enjoy the company of my friends and play a game that lets me kick back and have fun.  I'm not going [Removed for Content] for tat if a monk should be in a raid or not. Its simple I'm in every single raid we do from KoS to EoF and Fallen Dynasty.  Yes our class could use some Improvements but guess what I'm not holding my breath. Its people like most of you is why monks cant FIND a raiding guild to join you have no faith in the class and its a shame, and if all you can do is blast someone for saying monks are good for raiding than your a sad person and I feel sorry for you I really do.  Learn your class better is all I can suggest.  Yea its nice to get the big kills first and blah blah blah, but hey lets be like NPU and do everything they do to be THE BEST.......NOT. thats the whole point of the [Removed for Content] game is to use all classes for something or another and luckly my guild has found a very good use of me in the raids....pity yours hasn't.  Stop thinking inside the box and have fun with the class you enjoy.

[PantherXX]

<cite>Kanlei wrote:</cite><blockquote>First off I didnt have to find a guild that would take me.  I played my conj got tired of being a caster and made a monk, they respected that change.  Who really cares if NPU and blah blah blah doesnt have a monk?  I sure in the hell dont.  I'm here to enjoy the company of my friends and play a game that lets me kick back and have fun.  I'm not going [I cannot control my vocabulary] for tat if a monk should be in a raid or not. Its simple I'm in every single raid we do from KoS to EoF and Fallen Dynasty.  Yes our class could use some Improvements but guess what I'm not holding my breath. Its people like most of you is why monks cant FIND a raiding guild to join you have no faith in the class and its a shame, and if all you can do is blast someone for saying monks are good for raiding than your a sad person and I feel sorry for you I really do.  Learn your class better is all I can suggest.  Yea its nice to get the big kills first and blah blah blah, but hey lets be like NPU and do everything they do to be THE BEST.......NOT. thats the whole point of the [I cannot control my vocabulary] game is to use all classes for something or another and luckly my guild has found a very good use of me in the raids....pity yours hasn't.  Stop thinking inside the box and have fun with the class you enjoy. </blockquote>NM ... I am arguing the same points over and over.  Monks need tweaking regardless of the level at which you play.

[Couching]

<cite>Kanlei wrote:</cite><blockquote>First off I didnt have to find a guild that would take me.  I played my conj got tired of being a caster and made a monk, they respected that change.  Who really cares if NPU and blah blah blah doesnt have a monk?  I sure in the hell dont.  I'm here to enjoy the company of my friends and play a game that lets me kick back and have fun.  I'm not going [I cannot control my vocabulary] for tat if a monk should be in a raid or not. Its simple I'm in every single raid we do from KoS to EoF and Fallen Dynasty.  Yes our class could use some Improvements but guess what I'm not holding my breath. Its people like most of you is why monks cant FIND a raiding guild to join you have no faith in the class and its a shame, and if all you can do is blast someone for saying monks are good for raiding than your a sad person and I feel sorry for you I really do.  Learn your class better is all I can suggest.  Yea its nice to get the big kills first and blah blah blah, but hey lets be like NPU and do everything they do to be THE BEST.......NOT. thats the whole point of the [I cannot control my vocabulary] game is to use all classes for something or another and luckly my guild has found a very good use of me in the raids....pity yours hasn't.  Stop thinking inside the box and have fun with the class you enjoy. </blockquote>It's silly to assume that other monks didn't learn their char well. This is a discussion thread. If you want to convince people, show your reasons rather than assuming other monks are idiots. Take it or not, less brawlers in high end raiding guilds. Most high end guilds have no brawlers or only 1 monk or 1 bruiser.

[Anjin]

<p>My guild main was a monk, I changed to berserker because that was better for the raid.  I prefer playing my monk though.</p><p>"Its people like most of you is why monks cant FIND a raiding guild to join you have no faith in the class and its a shame, and if all you can do is blast someone for saying monks are good for raiding than your a sad person and I feel sorry for you I really do.  Learn your class better is all I can suggest."</p><p>The reason monks can't FIND raiding guilds to join is due to EXACTLY what has been said in this thread - it's just unfortunate that you're wearing blinkers.  It's comments like "Learn your class better" which really make me cringe.  YOU have NO IDEA about how well or badly I play my monk.  One thing for sure though, from your parses, I easily out DPS you! Not that it really matters tbh for a number of reasons, but just listen to the monks that have far more raiding experience than you (and I'm not saying that I'm included in this list) and you might learn something.</p><p>We have one monk as a main character in our guild now, recruitment is closed for brawlers.  Simple.</p>

[Zooce]

<cite>Kanlei wrote:</cite><blockquote>First off I didnt have to find a guild that would take me.  I played my conj got tired of being a caster and made a monk, they respected that change.  Who really cares if NPU and blah blah blah doesnt have a monk?  I sure in the hell dont.  I'm here to enjoy the company of my friends and play a game that lets me kick back and have fun.  I'm not going [I cannot control my vocabulary] for tat if a monk should be in a raid or not. Its simple I'm in every single raid we do from KoS to EoF and Fallen Dynasty.  Yes our class could use some Improvements but guess what I'm not holding my breath. Its people like most of you is why monks cant FIND a raiding guild to join you have no faith in the class and its a shame, and if all you can do is blast someone for saying monks are good for raiding than your a sad person and I feel sorry for you I really do.  Learn your class better is all I can suggest.  Yea its nice to get the big kills first and blah blah blah, but hey lets be like NPU and do everything they do to be THE BEST.......NOT. thats the whole point of the [I cannot control my vocabulary] game is to use all classes for something or another and luckly my guild has found a very good use of me in the raids....pity yours hasn't.  Stop thinking inside the box and have fun with the class you enjoy. </blockquote><p>Sorry Kanlei, I don't wish to be rude, but burying your head in the sand when there is an obvious issue is not in my view a positive reponse. You admit yourself that we need improvements, so why then should we not talk about them?</p><p> Let's get monks on the table for a look, because there are quite a few like me switching classes (I've started a Defiler). </p>

[Planetside]

<p>With the free server transfers out and my guild no longer playing eq2 besides me, I have been looking for a new home for my Monk.  Having been in a smaller non raiding guild since release I would like to try out the raiding scene.  I get laughed at when I say or type MONK but get the promise of fabled gear tossed at my feet when I say MYSTIC or WARLOCK.  I wish the demand/want/need was even close to my Mystic or Warlock within the Raiding community.  </p>

[Traxor789]

<cite>Kanlei wrote:</cite><blockquote>First off I didnt have to find a guild that would take me.  I played my conj got tired of being a caster and made a monk, they respected that change.  Who really cares if NPU and blah blah blah doesnt have a monk?  I sure in the hell dont.  I'm here to enjoy the company of my friends and play a game that lets me kick back and have fun.  I'm not going [I cannot control my vocabulary] for tat if a monk should be in a raid or not. Its simple I'm in every single raid we do from KoS to EoF and Fallen Dynasty.  Yes our class could use some Improvements but guess what I'm not holding my breath. Its people like most of you is why monks cant FIND a raiding guild to join you have no faith in the class and its a shame, and if all you can do is blast someone for saying monks are good for raiding than your a sad person and I feel sorry for you I really do.  Learn your class better is all I can suggest.  Yea its nice to get the big kills first and blah blah blah, but hey lets be like NPU and do everything they do to be THE BEST.......NOT. thats the whole point of the [I cannot control my vocabulary] game is to use all classes for something or another and luckly my guild has found a very good use of me in the raids....pity yours hasn't.  Stop thinking inside the box and have fun with the class you enjoy. </blockquote><p> Sadly its also people like you who are confused. Confused that People wanting a change like me and many others. ALSO Like playing monks. Love it in fact. Pure and simple. Monks arnt the best Ballanced class in the game, and lack in the since of usfullness and that is the reason some of the higher progressing guilds do not have this class. Im thinking outside of the box 100% when I say monks just arnt made to raid really. </p><p>The main thing being said monks need a tweak because others like playing the class also but its not exaclty mesuring up regardless of player skill. Best monk ww< sub par classes WW.</p><p> Sorry if it gets you worked up even angry if it seems like i "hate the class" which couldnt be anymore wrong. </p>

[Ganeden]

Most people probably think you hate the class because the only reason you ever post here is to spew your hatred of the monk class on any topics you see fit. Yes, we need help, we need more dps and utility. I dont know how much more it can be discussed. I remember a topic you made a couple months ago where you were basically just making fun of monks, there was nothing constructive about it, most of your brawler hating posts usually aren't. You're a troll, plain and simple.

[Shankonia]

<cite>Ganeden wrote:</cite><blockquote>Most people probably think you hate the class because the only reason you ever post here is to spew your hatred of the monk class on any topics you see fit. Yes, we need help, we need more dps and utility. I dont know how much more it can be discussed. I remember a topic you made a couple months ago where you were basically just making fun of monks, there was nothing constructive about it, most of your brawler hating posts usually aren't. You're a troll, plain and simple.</blockquote><p> Whatever man.</p><p>I'm not going to hate on anyone for loving their Monk, playing their Monk very very well, or doing everything they can to justify their raiding existance for whatever reason.  Just don't accuse someone else of being a troll when you are in fact trolling yourself Ganeden.  </p><p>Facts are facts, plain and simple.  I just switched my raid main back to my Monk from my Dirge last week because I have more fun playing the Monk than my Dirge.  We are a weaker raid force now because of it even though my first raid back in Freethinkers I was parsing between 1200 - 1800 (blessings & miracles I can get 1800) every fight.  As a raid though, we didn't break 30k once - something we always do.</p><p>I'll take my Monk over alot of other folks scouts, mages, whatever.  Find me anyone though, playing any class, with just as much skill and gear as me on my Monk, i'm in the backseat.  This is the problem.  It's not a personal problem as so many of you take it.  It's a fundamental problem.</p>

[mr23sgte]

I guess  Monks can only hope for  the best "AA rework"  of all times .................... I'm being asked to betray to Bruiser by my guild lol

[ChildofHate]

<cite>Kota wrote:</cite><blockquote>none of the classes were 'designed' to be solo classes.  it was stated before launch that eq2 uses an archetype system.  all the fighter classes were supposed to be able to fill the role of tank.  all the priest classes were to fill the role as healer.  etc. </blockquote><p> ROFL...</p><p>I am from the government and i am here to help you.</p><p>Yes, I will respect you in the morning.</p><p>I only herd the sheep.</p>