Need new component on defensive stance.

[Aeg]

<p>hi, many paladins may not know this, but paladins really get shafted on their defensive stance. sure we get the mitigation boost, resist boost and the defense skill boost, but then again, all tank classes do.</p><p>crusaders however do not get the specific skill increase that other tanks do, guardians increase parry, monk increase deflection ect. our defensive stance should add block percentage or parry skill as well, even if it is to a lesser degree than guardians and berserkers.</p><p>paladins and SKs not only dont get this, but they dont get any type of stoneskin either like guardians do. im not asking for stoneskin, but every time we get hit, we feel it, and we cannot avoid big hits like guardians can. </p><p>please add either block +%, parry skill or some other form of defensive skill buff to our defensive stance. thank you.</p>

[Rob89]

We got WISDOM instead. We get stoneskin from AA line. But im not saying no to +parry and such either.

[Aeg]

by stoneskin i assume you mean divine aura? last i heard, DA doesnt mitigate before it checks whether or not it does more than 50% health. meaning if mayong mistmoore is hitting you with 0% mitigation, you would take 24k damage hit, divine aura says it would do more than 50%, skips the DA check, does avoidance checks and then mitigation checks, lowering the damage by whatever percentage your migitation is and hitting you through DA like it wasent even there.

[Kaleyen]

Yeah this is something Steel has been posting about since I can remember. And yeah I agree, we need SOMETHING on our defensive stance.

[RiotActer]

<p>/agree</p><p> We really should have something "extra" with the defensive stance.  Everyone always points to the ward and healing we have, but some of that is just non-sense because of the casting timers and interrupts.  I'd really like to see something with our shield skill personally.  Pallies should be the sword and board masters IMHO.</p>

[OrcSlayer96]

<cite>Aegiz wrote:</cite><blockquote>by stoneskin i assume you mean divine aura? last i heard, DA doesnt mitigate before it checks whether or not it does more than 50% health. meaning if mayong mistmoore is hitting you with 0% mitigation, you would take 24k damage hit, divine aura says it would do more than 50%, skips the DA check, does avoidance checks and then mitigation checks, lowering the damage by whatever percentage your migitation is and hitting you through DA like it wasent even there.</blockquote><p>From the ton of times i use this, i believe it is taking mitigation/resists into the equation, what hurts us on this ability is that it ignores non profession abilities(AKA epic Specials like Wrath of Fury...), and the under 50% health limits how serious of mobs you can take on.  Alot of paladins treat this as a Tower of Stone, and then find out the hard way it is not.  Divine Aura against a non debuffed mob means 3 hits and you are out of it.  It is much more effective on Adds and after the intial 5 secs of buffing.</p><p>On the defensive buff, i have asked this on the forums for ages, and when i go to fan faire i hope to ask again in person.  Sure, we get a wisdom buff on our defensive stance, but that should not replace at least a + parry buff on it also.  We are caster tanks and need both power from the wisdom bonus and a enhancement in avoidance to help on tanking.  We get by by using adornents and shrewdly picking up plus parry/defense/block gear, but it doesnt mean we shouldnt have it.  The only thing i have changed on my viewpoint is that it should be instead of plus 14 parry or whatever, it should be +1% block on adept 1-3, +2% block on master 1 on the defense stance.  That way each sublass of fighters have a niche on their defense, parry for warriors, block for crusaders, deflection on brawlers.  I also think they should give a block percent adornment back for wrists in the form of a new tinkerer adornment or something so we can choose what we want for avoidance on a wrist item, or even better toss it on a earing so we have more options there. </p>

[Anathriel]

My take on this is while we dont get as good a def stance as other fighters, we do get ward - ever since i first got my ward it has been cast just before pretty much every pull <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Kaleyen]

Take no offense to this to the poster above...not the first time that has been brought up mind you... But... Posts like that make me want to bang my head into my desk and /delete the Paladin.

[Tyrion]

<cite>OrcSlayer96 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aegiz wrote:</cite><blockquote>by stoneskin i assume you mean divine aura? last i heard, DA doesnt mitigate before it checks whether or not it does more than 50% health. meaning if mayong mistmoore is hitting you with 0% mitigation, you would take 24k damage hit, divine aura says it would do more than 50%, skips the DA check, does avoidance checks and then mitigation checks, lowering the damage by whatever percentage your migitation is and hitting you through DA like it wasent even there.</blockquote><p>From the ton of times i use this, i believe it is taking mitigation/resists into the equation, what hurts us on this ability is that it ignores non profession abilities(AKA epic Specials like Wrath of Fury...), and the under 50% health limits how serious of mobs you can take on.  Alot of paladins treat this as a Tower of Stone, and then find out the hard way it is not.  Divine Aura against a non debuffed mob means 3 hits and you are out of it.  It is much more effective on Adds and after the intial 5 secs of buffing.</p><p>On the defensive buff, i have asked this on the forums for ages, and when i go to fan faire i hope to ask again in person.  Sure, we get a wisdom buff on our defensive stance, but that should not replace at least a + parry buff on it also.  We are caster tanks and need both power from the wisdom bonus and a enhancement in avoidance to help on tanking.  We get by by using adornents and shrewdly picking up plus parry/defense/block gear, but it doesnt mean we shouldnt have it.  The only thing i have changed on my viewpoint is that it should be instead of plus 14 parry or whatever, it should be +1% block on adept 1-3, +2% block on master 1 on the defense stance.  That way each sublass of fighters have a niche on their defense, parry for warriors, block for crusaders, deflection on brawlers.  I also think they should give a block percent adornment back for wrists in the form of a new tinkerer adornment or something so we can choose what we want for avoidance on a wrist item, or even better toss it on a earing so we have more options there. </p></blockquote> I think added Block % for Paladins is a unique idea (admittedly it would always require a shield), although stacking it on top of Wisdom would only unbalance the whole deal since Paladins/SKs would then get two tertiary components to their defensive stance over everyone else. Either scrap the wisdom, or consider giving another attribute to the other fighters. And you guys do get two resists instead of just one....woooooo (magic and divine ftl)

[Quda]

Liluk@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>Take no offense to this to the poster above...not the first time that has been brought up mind you... But... Posts like that make me want to bang my head into my desk and /delete the Paladin. </blockquote><p> What? you haven't deleted him yet?</p><p>Sorry, just a little irriate about what they have done to the pally class.  I haven't delete mine yet, but I use him as my little harvest whor.... wench.   Do you know how much raws you can carry?</p>

[Kaleyen]

<cite>Tyrion wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>OrcSlayer96 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aegiz wrote:</cite><blockquote>by stoneskin i assume you mean divine aura? last i heard, DA doesnt mitigate before it checks whether or not it does more than 50% health. meaning if mayong mistmoore is hitting you with 0% mitigation, you would take 24k damage hit, divine aura says it would do more than 50%, skips the DA check, does avoidance checks and then mitigation checks, lowering the damage by whatever percentage your migitation is and hitting you through DA like it wasent even there.</blockquote><p>From the ton of times i use this, i believe it is taking mitigation/resists into the equation, what hurts us on this ability is that it ignores non profession abilities(AKA epic Specials like Wrath of Fury...), and the under 50% health limits how serious of mobs you can take on.  Alot of paladins treat this as a Tower of Stone, and then find out the hard way it is not.  Divine Aura against a non debuffed mob means 3 hits and you are out of it.  It is much more effective on Adds and after the intial 5 secs of buffing.</p><p>On the defensive buff, i have asked this on the forums for ages, and when i go to fan faire i hope to ask again in person.  Sure, we get a wisdom buff on our defensive stance, but that should not replace at least a + parry buff on it also.  We are caster tanks and need both power from the wisdom bonus and a enhancement in avoidance to help on tanking.  We get by by using adornents and shrewdly picking up plus parry/defense/block gear, but it doesnt mean we shouldnt have it.  The only thing i have changed on my viewpoint is that it should be instead of plus 14 parry or whatever, it should be +1% block on adept 1-3, +2% block on master 1 on the defense stance.  That way each sublass of fighters have a niche on their defense, parry for warriors, block for crusaders, deflection on brawlers.  I also think they should give a block percent adornment back for wrists in the form of a new tinkerer adornment or something so we can choose what we want for avoidance on a wrist item, or even better toss it on a earing so we have more options there. </p></blockquote> I think added Block % for Paladins is a unique idea (admittedly it would always require a shield), although stacking it on top of Wisdom would only unbalance the whole deal since Paladins/SKs would then get two tertiary components to their defensive stance over everyone else. Either scrap the wisdom, or consider giving another attribute to the other fighters. And you guys do get two resists instead of just one....woooooo (magic and divine ftl)</blockquote>Well it's believe that we were given wisdom because we're suppose to use a lot of power to tank (Taunts, CA's, Spells, Heals) however I'm not sure which Dev put that into place because we gain more power from STR then we do from WIS. Have a Block % for our defensive stance that requires a shield (I don't think I need to explain why it would require a shield) would be a great boost to our defensive stance and would help us overall. I am probably one of the biggest self hating Paladins out there, love and hate my class at the same time.  With a few slight changes that wouldn't overpower the class nor would make any other classes cry SOE could really help Paladins, one of these slight changes is just lowering the casting timer of our Ward.  Not overpowering but will enable us to actually use it effectively while MT for a raid.

[OrcSlayer96]

<cite>Tyrion wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>OrcSlayer96 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aegiz wrote:</cite><blockquote>by stoneskin i assume you mean divine aura? last i heard, DA doesnt mitigate before it checks whether or not it does more than 50% health. meaning if mayong mistmoore is hitting you with 0% mitigation, you would take 24k damage hit, divine aura says it would do more than 50%, skips the DA check, does avoidance checks and then mitigation checks, lowering the damage by whatever percentage your migitation is and hitting you through DA like it wasent even there.</blockquote><p>From the ton of times i use this, i believe it is taking mitigation/resists into the equation, what hurts us on this ability is that it ignores non profession abilities(AKA epic Specials like Wrath of Fury...), and the under 50% health limits how serious of mobs you can take on.  Alot of paladins treat this as a Tower of Stone, and then find out the hard way it is not.  Divine Aura against a non debuffed mob means 3 hits and you are out of it.  It is much more effective on Adds and after the intial 5 secs of buffing.</p><p>On the defensive buff, i have asked this on the forums for ages, and when i go to fan faire i hope to ask again in person.  Sure, we get a wisdom buff on our defensive stance, but that should not replace at least a + parry buff on it also.  We are caster tanks and need both power from the wisdom bonus and a enhancement in avoidance to help on tanking.  We get by by using adornents and shrewdly picking up plus parry/defense/block gear, but it doesnt mean we shouldnt have it.  The only thing i have changed on my viewpoint is that it should be instead of plus 14 parry or whatever, it should be +1% block on adept 1-3, +2% block on master 1 on the defense stance.  That way each sublass of fighters have a niche on their defense, parry for warriors, block for crusaders, deflection on brawlers.  I also think they should give a block percent adornment back for wrists in the form of a new tinkerer adornment or something so we can choose what we want for avoidance on a wrist item, or even better toss it on a earing so we have more options there. </p></blockquote> I think added Block % for Paladins is a unique idea (admittedly it would always require a shield), although stacking it on top of Wisdom would only unbalance the whole deal since Paladins/SKs would then get two tertiary components to their defensive stance over everyone else. Either scrap the wisdom, or consider giving another attribute to the other fighters. And you guys do get two resists instead of just one....woooooo (magic and divine ftl)</blockquote><p>I am sorry Tyrion, but i have to disagree with you on this.  You fall into the same mistake many paladins make, trying to compare 2 totally different tanks and saying we are imbalanced and such.  From a guardian standpoint, it would look imbalanced, here is where you maybe missing things tho.  As a guardian, your DPS/Power come from 1 stat: STR.  Your abilities are combat arts while at least a  1/3rd of ours are spells.  For your normal tanking list of combat arts, you are using on the average 1/2 the power to cast and maintain your tanking compared to crusaders.  The Devs saw this and applied WIS to our defense side to help mitigate to a small degree the larger power drain crusaders have.   What we are asking is a boost to our avoidance and make it unique to our tanking class.  Now if you want a secondary item added onto your defense, the only fair thing to do would be to make warriors split stat on their power pool also(STR/AGI) then apply the stat bonus to the stat that only gives them 33% of their power.  As you mentioned before, they gave us 2 resists on our defense, but as many including you have stated, Divine is hardly needed, so Magic is the one considered in defense.</p><p>Players that play paladins already have hurdles to jump that players that play guardians never have to experience.  We have our main survival abilities classified as spells so we cant move without interrupting and the cost usually at least twice as much compared to warrior versions(compare a 1 min duration power cost of your 2 mit buff combat arts to spamming heals/wards for paladins).  Those that have played this class from the beginning know this and have come to accept it(we may not like it or strive to get updates tho).   We work around the difficulties and come up with ways to make us effective or at the least not a detriment to the raid.  If you look at the other subclasses(warriors/brawlers) they have different stance item to help their avoidance and none have split stats for power, we are just asking for our class to be considered more on tanking than just the power boost we recieved. </p>

[Chia_Pet]

<cite>Tyrion wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>OrcSlayer96 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aegiz wrote:</cite><blockquote>by stoneskin i assume you mean divine aura? last i heard, DA doesnt mitigate before it checks whether or not it does more than 50% health. meaning if mayong mistmoore is hitting you with 0% mitigation, you would take 24k damage hit, divine aura says it would do more than 50%, skips the DA check, does avoidance checks and then mitigation checks, lowering the damage by whatever percentage your migitation is and hitting you through DA like it wasent even there.</blockquote><p>From the ton of times i use this, i believe it is taking mitigation/resists into the equation, what hurts us on this ability is that it ignores non profession abilities(AKA epic Specials like Wrath of Fury...), and the under 50% health limits how serious of mobs you can take on.  Alot of paladins treat this as a Tower of Stone, and then find out the hard way it is not.  Divine Aura against a non debuffed mob means 3 hits and you are out of it.  It is much more effective on Adds and after the intial 5 secs of buffing.</p><p>On the defensive buff, i have asked this on the forums for ages, and when i go to fan faire i hope to ask again in person.  Sure, we get a wisdom buff on our defensive stance, but that should not replace at least a + parry buff on it also.  We are caster tanks and need both power from the wisdom bonus and a enhancement in avoidance to help on tanking.  We get by by using adornents and shrewdly picking up plus parry/defense/block gear, but it doesnt mean we shouldnt have it.  The only thing i have changed on my viewpoint is that it should be instead of plus 14 parry or whatever, it should be +1% block on adept 1-3, +2% block on master 1 on the defense stance.  That way each sublass of fighters have a niche on their defense, parry for warriors, block for crusaders, deflection on brawlers.  I also think they should give a block percent adornment back for wrists in the form of a new tinkerer adornment or something so we can choose what we want for avoidance on a wrist item, or even better toss it on a earing so we have more options there. </p></blockquote> I think added Block % for Paladins is a unique idea (admittedly it would always require a shield), although stacking it on top of Wisdom would only unbalance the whole deal since Paladins/SKs would then get two tertiary components to their defensive stance over everyone else. Either scrap the wisdom, or consider giving another attribute to the other fighters. And you guys do get two resists instead of just one....woooooo (magic and divine ftl)</blockquote>I disagree, were the only class that requires so many darn ability scores to function, we need em all, STA wisdom, strength agility,etc. we NEED em therefor i dont think it would be overpowering at all.

[Tyrion]

<cite>OrcSlayer96 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tyrion wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>OrcSlayer96 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aegiz wrote:</cite><blockquote>by stoneskin i assume you mean divine aura? last i heard, DA doesnt mitigate before it checks whether or not it does more than 50% health. meaning if mayong mistmoore is hitting you with 0% mitigation, you would take 24k damage hit, divine aura says it would do more than 50%, skips the DA check, does avoidance checks and then mitigation checks, lowering the damage by whatever percentage your migitation is and hitting you through DA like it wasent even there.</blockquote><p>From the ton of times i use this, i believe it is taking mitigation/resists into the equation, what hurts us on this ability is that it ignores non profession abilities(AKA epic Specials like Wrath of Fury...), and the under 50% health limits how serious of mobs you can take on.  Alot of paladins treat this as a Tower of Stone, and then find out the hard way it is not.  Divine Aura against a non debuffed mob means 3 hits and you are out of it.  It is much more effective on Adds and after the intial 5 secs of buffing.</p><p>On the defensive buff, i have asked this on the forums for ages, and when i go to fan faire i hope to ask again in person.  Sure, we get a wisdom buff on our defensive stance, but that should not replace at least a + parry buff on it also.  We are caster tanks and need both power from the wisdom bonus and a enhancement in avoidance to help on tanking.  We get by by using adornents and shrewdly picking up plus parry/defense/block gear, but it doesnt mean we shouldnt have it.  The only thing i have changed on my viewpoint is that it should be instead of plus 14 parry or whatever, it should be +1% block on adept 1-3, +2% block on master 1 on the defense stance.  That way each sublass of fighters have a niche on their defense, parry for warriors, block for crusaders, deflection on brawlers.  I also think they should give a block percent adornment back for wrists in the form of a new tinkerer adornment or something so we can choose what we want for avoidance on a wrist item, or even better toss it on a earing so we have more options there. </p></blockquote> I think added Block % for Paladins is a unique idea (admittedly it would always require a shield), although stacking it on top of Wisdom would only unbalance the whole deal since Paladins/SKs would then get two tertiary components to their defensive stance over everyone else. Either scrap the wisdom, or consider giving another attribute to the other fighters. And you guys do get two resists instead of just one....woooooo (magic and divine ftl)</blockquote><p>I am sorry Tyrion, but i have to disagree with you on this.  You fall into the same mistake many paladins make, trying to compare 2 totally different tanks and saying we are imbalanced and such.  From a guardian standpoint, it would look imbalanced, here is where you maybe missing things tho.  As a guardian, your DPS/Power come from 1 stat: STR.  Your abilities are combat arts while at least a  1/3rd of ours are spells.  For your normal tanking list of combat arts, you are using on the average 1/2 the power to cast and maintain your tanking compared to crusaders.  The Devs saw this and applied WIS to our defense side to help mitigate to a small degree the larger power drain crusaders have.   What we are asking is a boost to our avoidance and make it unique to our tanking class.  Now if you want a secondary item added onto your defense, the only fair thing to do would be to make warriors split stat on their power pool also(STR/AGI) then apply the stat bonus to the stat that only gives them 33% of their power.  As you mentioned before, they gave us 2 resists on our defense, but as many including you have stated, Divine is hardly needed, so Magic is the one considered in defense.</p><p>Players that play paladins already have hurdles to jump that players that play guardians never have to experience.  We have our main survival abilities classified as spells so we cant move without interrupting and the cost usually at least twice as much compared to warrior versions(compare a 1 min duration power cost of your 2 mit buff combat arts to spamming heals/wards for paladins).  Those that have played this class from the beginning know this and have come to accept it(we may not like it or strive to get updates tho).   We work around the difficulties and come up with ways to make us effective or at the least not a detriment to the raid.  If you look at the other subclasses(warriors/brawlers) they have different stance item to help their avoidance and none have split stats for power, we are just asking for our class to be considered more on tanking than just the power boost we recieved. </p></blockquote><p>I defenitely agree that managing spells in combat, and especially in some raid circumstances would be infuriating at times if you were to be interrupted over and over. I have never played a Crusader so I am somewhat ignorant of their tanking. I simply wish to ensure there are no one uppances for a certain archeytpe over another in terms of stat and ability spreads on major stances/combat arts/spells. This leads to a few questions hopefully you guys can enlighten me on. For relatively high-end Paladins out there, what are your power pools self-buffed? I have a mix of relic/doomrage/kos fabled plate and EoF Guardian set armour, and then a mix of EoF and KoS jewelery, and weaponry/shields. My power is anywhere between 4700-4900 depending on gear setup. If power stems from multiple attributes for Paladins, does that equate to more total power, or simply the same overall?</p><p>This in turn leads to another question, if Paladins do indeed consume a lot more power to be on the same level as other fighters, would not the better solution simply be to ask for lower power costs on your major survival skills? I can only assume this has been protested for endlessly as is, and I would whole heartedly agree if it's the truth. In regard to interrupts, I do play a Warlock, and I will say having Focus play a more prominent role in the skill sheet would ensure Paladins would not be interrupted as much. I'm open to all responses, and now am very curious as to how you guys tank in general. Please share! <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Kaleyen]

Hey Thorren I'll try to answer this the best that I can. Power pool wise not sure what I am self buffed but I'd say I'm right around in your range.  EQ2Players has me at 5k but they're off on my health since self buffed I'm sitting just under 9.2k. The major problem that I have with tanking as my Paladin is that unlike the other fighters we don't have any short terms.  My Monk and my Zerker both have short term buffs that decrease their DPS but increase their defense/mitigation/etc.  Paladins don't have any of those...none.  That alone puts us at a large disadvantage for spike damage on the initial pull before the mob is debuffed. Going along with that, while leveling my Paladin up and reading the forums I was told that the reason why we don't have anything along those lines is because we have the ability to  ward and heal ourselves during battle.   Two things are wrong with that thought process. 1.  Interrupts,  before I pull a mob I self ward but after that I am unable to heal/ward myself during battle or if I do it's a rare thing.  Also I have gone down the AA lines to make my heals cast and recast faster for the sole purpose of being able to use them when tanking and it's still iffy.  I'll probably get off 1 ward or heal out of 4-5 attempts. 2.  When tanking a 74 or 75 x4 epic a 1k heal or a 1.5k ward I throw on myself really doesn't do much.  Specially when added to the problem stated above. My next issues is my DPS while tanking, it is far less then a Warrior's while tanking.  Keep in mind that I'm not asking for any class to be nerfed I'm asking for my class to be adjusted.  Warrior's received the STA line because the DPS helps lock down an encounter, well that same logic applies for a Paladin tanking yet we were over looked.  Yes we have the handy ability called amends, but for raid tanking it's a moot point because a Warrior will usually have a hate transfer from some high DPS class in the MT group. And as Steel mentioned out defensive stance is weak compared to other fighters.  In all honesty I'm not sure why SOE decided to break the mold for fighters when it came to Crusaders.  Brawlers and Warriors share more things in common then the plate fighters do and I'm really not sure why. I'll probably keep editing this as I think of more things...hard for me to think in the mornings.

[Aeg]

<p>an additional component would drastically help the paladin class, it is VERY hard to raise our parry skill, but block chance as well. as block is our primary method of avoidance, i think either a +% chance block addition would be the best change, however, parry would also be totally awesome. throw us a bone!</p>

[Controlor]

<cite>Tyrion wrote:</cite><blockquote>I defenitely agree that managing spells in combat, and especially in some raid circumstances would be infuriating at times if you were to be interrupted over and over. I have never played a Crusader so I am somewhat ignorant of their tanking. I simply wish to ensure there are no one uppances for a certain archeytpe over another in terms of stat and ability spreads on major stances/combat arts/spells. This leads to a few questions hopefully you guys can enlighten me on. For relatively high-end Paladins out there, what are your power pools self-buffed? I have a mix of relic/doomrage/kos fabled plate and EoF Guardian set armour, and then a mix of EoF and KoS jewelery, and weaponry/shields. My power is anywhere between 4700-4900 depending on gear setup. If power stems from multiple attributes for Paladins, does that equate to more total power, or simply the same overall?<p>This in turn leads to another question, if Paladins do indeed consume a lot more power to be on the same level as other fighters, would not the better solution simply be to ask for lower power costs on your major survival skills? I can only assume this has been protested for endlessly as is, and I would whole heartedly agree if it's the truth. In regard to interrupts, I do play a Warlock, and I will say having Focus play a more prominent role in the skill sheet would ensure Paladins would not be interrupted as much. I'm open to all responses, and now am very curious as to how you guys tank in general. Please shar! <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote>To adress our pr issue first. 2/3 of our power comes from str 1/3 comes from wis. When they redid the fighter system hp / pr they said that brawlers were to have highest hp lowest pr, warriors medium hp medium pr, and crusaders lowest hp highest pr. Since most crusaders dont like this fact we have to sacrafice our pr for the boost in hp. I have seen pladins with close to 6k pr BUT at the same time they only had 5.5k hp. But if you look at the paladins who went for hp over pr our hp can easily become 9.5k-10k hp self buffed but our pr would be right around the 4k range. So with our hp similar to warriors our power would be as well. The only reason i could see why the split stat would help a paladin over warrior is deminishing returns. If a warrior caps his str he cant get any more pr. While if a paladin caps his str he can go to wisdom to get more pr. This is such a minor point, mainly because it forces paladins to focus on multiple stats. Paladins need the str / wis for pr, need int for our nukes, sta for our hp, and generally a paladins agi is low as its prob the lowest on rung of stats. Whereas a warrior can focus on str agi sta. Str for the dmg of your CA's and pr, agi for avoid, and sta for your hp. So that puts paladins at a disadvantage. Now to talk about our avoid. Toss in the fact that we have lower agi then warrior or brawlers because of how many stats we have to split. Take out any +avoid to our defensive even further Reduces our avoidance compared to warriors. I have seen warriors with close to 60%+ avoid. Where a paladin going down hero line just for the extra avoid at teh end can get around 55%. (Mind you this is a maxish most are around 47-52%). Finally the cost of our spells. Our combat arts (Which we do have some as we are more melee oriented than sk's who have more of a pr issue then WE do) cost probably about the same as yours. hovering from 50-70 pr per. But our spells are all over 100. Most are around the 130-140 range, some 200+. This includes our heals which are high 130's+. Our CA's are .5 seconds almost all CA's are for casting time (i believe). But our nukes are 1 or 2 second cast time. And our heals are 2 seconds + (Excluding lay hands which is instant). So the 2 second casting time is plenty of time for us to get interupted by the mob so during a fight they arnt really effective. I personally preward befor pull. And if all my taunts are down and my shield bash or other stun (cant member name does extra dmg to undead) are up. I throw that in just to STUN the mob to be able to have a CHANCE of getting a ward off w/o being interupted. However this wouldnt work on epics so if we do happen to MT on an epic all our heals are pretty much done with. The casting time is another issue than this thread and has been talked about that with the high pr low hp and high casting cost it is ineffecient and unfair. They can keep the pr and heal amount the same but really need to lower the casting time. Compare our heals to EQ1 which were all fast casting, because they knew we would be taking a hit so needed to get it off faster. Here they throw us in the role of a possible OT if not healing / support role. To me that is unfair to do because why take a paladin as a support class when yo ucan easily replace them with a healer in a raid. OR why take a paladin as an OT when you can easily have a zerker or guard. So paladins are highly shunned when it comes to raiding. Oooh and one last note: If you dont think there is a discrepancy look at the thread that asks if SOE gave all paladins a chance to change their class would they?..... See how many paladins say yes they would instantly change to a guardian but dont because they put to much time into paladins to start over as a guardian.

[Rast]

<p>One thing I never understood...  If defensive stance should help our tanking, why do we get wisdom, which does very little for our tanking ability?  Why not STA or AGI?  Those would help far more than WIS.  Heck, cut the bonus in half and give us str/sta split (same total amount of points, but better spread for the tanking paladin)</p>

[Boli32]

The true reason is actually two fold: 1. Increase our resists; after all we are the "resist tank" 2. Increase our power so we don't impact ourselfs too much when we shift friom offensive to defensive (we loose a lot of power/str for that) what in effect it DOES do is: (both tstances at AD3) +296 to all resists (out of a total of 10,000 cap) + ~200 power (offensive stance gives us ~ 300) - give or take diminishing returns. Which given diminishing returns; is a bit of a slap in the face really.

[Rast]

I know that they seem to want to make us the resist tank, but what mobs out there really are there than needs a 'resist' tank, especially when you can get gear that would blow the 'bonus' out of the water in what are relatively easy Labs runs? (I say relatively easy, because as raids go, it isn't too hard of one...)

[Boethius_Permafrost]

I would love to have some parry skill added on somewhere, but is that a little over the top?  Warriors parry, brawlers deflect, and we block.  Our blocking skill was moved off to an AA tree, but at least we can be in offensive stance as long as we use a shield.  (If you take that aa tree, of course.) Currently, I believe many crusaders stay in offensive unless they get in trouble.  The defensive stance is clearly lacking, and just some focus would help.  When I get a ward interrupted, I am in danger of losing agro from the lost cast time, during which I would normally have been hitting my recycled taunts.  So focus would help, some, and is very much within the paladin paradigm.  And wisdom + an extra resist + focus still doesn't match the value of parry/block/deflect, so this can't be considered a power-gamer unfair request.  My proposal is actually so weak that half of you are going to mock it as "oh wow, some focus.  Thanks, now I can tank anything."

[Theren]

Paladins need a few new components. A big observation of mine has been that EVERY tank class had a buff that can/does proc a taunt. Monks attack and proc taunt, Bruisers proc attack and Taunt, Guards proc a taunt, Berserkers proc a taunt and attack, and SK's have a Taunt/Damage buff. But where is the Paladins mark in this area??? None found, some would say we have Amends and Sigil to counter this and that is a good point but other Plate tanks get nice abilities to up the hate gain by a large amount as well. Whether it be a taunt or group buff. The implementation of this would be simple, Paladins have one of if not the worse death prevention in the game. Simply change the effects of Divine Favor to proc a Taunt or always taunt. This is and easy fix to alot of problems in my opinion. Ok we have to spread our stats out ok we long casting spells, keep all that the same but give us the ability to keep aggro during 4-6 interrupt heals/wards. Just my idea for the week let me know what you all think. =)

[Prrasha]

Ryou@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>Paladins need a few new components. A big observation of mine has been that EVERY tank class had a buff that can/does proc a taunt. Monks attack and proc taunt, Bruisers proc attack and Taunt, Guards proc a taunt, Berserkers proc a taunt and attack, and SK's have a Taunt/Damage buff. But where is the Paladins mark in this area??? None found, some would say we have Amends and Sigil to counter this and that is a good point but other Plate tanks get nice abilities to up the hate gain by a large amount as well. Whether it be a taunt or group buff. The implementation of this would be simple, Paladins have one of if not the worse death prevention in the game. Simply change the effects of Divine Favor to proc a Taunt or always taunt. This is and easy fix to alot of problems in my opinion. Ok we have to spread our stats out ok we long casting spells, keep all that the same but give us the ability to keep aggro during 4-6 interrupt heals/wards. Just my idea for the week let me know what you all think. =)</blockquote> I think that out of all the problems paladins have, hate is not one of them.  If you think we need a hate-gain upgrade, I think you need hate-gain spell upgrades.  Honestly, if I had the choice between the existing DA or a guardian proc-hate skill... I'd keep DA.  The last thing I need is more aggro. I also think that bringing up hate gain in a "paladin fix" thread distracts from real issues.  We need better miti/avoid or we need uninterruptible/faster-casting heals so they act like the miti/avoid that other tanks get, as part of their stances or as other short-term buffs.  That is where we fall behind the other tanks, not in aggro.

[oldironballs]

<p>Just something that I think is often overlooked. Basically every attack/damage/agro/thingy that warriors have is a combat art, they dont have spells. When using their defensive stance they are penalised a certain amount of accuracy (-17.6 crushing/slashing/peircing from memory). Now paladins also have this decreased accuracy of combat arts associated with their defensive stance HOWEVER we suffer no penalty to our spell casting ability (would be a decrease in ordination/disruption). Not only are our spell casting abilities maintained in defensive stance we are also given an aa line that gives us 68% damage spell crits and i think 64% heal spell crits. I personally think what SoE needs to do is fufill their original promise and make us legitimate resist tanks by increasing the effect wisdom has on resists (cmon soe, i know you want all that healer love). At the moment it is a token offering at best, they might as well have not even bothered. I pretty much ignore strength in terms of dps output as our combat arts are a joke compared to the damage we can put out from our spells. We use a beserker as my agro monkey in our raids and their group str buff (approx 120 ?) in combination with the single target str/wis buff from templars (147 to each from memory) gives me more than enough strength to be pushing well into the exponentially decreasing part of the diminishing returns curve. To be honest all you need to do is put a coercer in group 1 and that should pretty much be the end of your power problems. </p><p>If a pally is having problems holding agro on a raid I would first look at a) equipment b) spell masters c) pally challenged (the good pally needs to be self aware <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ). Oh or amends is bugging. In my opinion, in terms of pure threat creation, pallys are the best agro management tanks in the game. The combination of amends and sigil with 6 very powerful aoe's (thats inc. smite evil and not inc. castigate) is a very potent combination. Where the pally really falls down is when u have mobs that shift around agro position on the threat ladder (deagro's/agro resets) and to my knowledge the only tank class really equipped to deal with this problem directly is a guardian. Even so with a bit of intuition you can always get around the problem.</p><p> I think you just have to think outside the square. Yes a guardian can get agro from a swashy or an assasins agro transfer, however this means they are including an essentially useless class in group 1 that offers nothing to the group in terms of buffs or abilities. Because pally's dont need the scout agro transfer to hold agro we can include another class that is much more useful such as a 3rd healer or the ever uber zerker/coercer/dirge combo. In my humble opinion the comparison of raw stats without context is a mute argument.</p>