Super great game, why not more players?

[JackBurtonBTLC]

<p>I have played pretty much all MMO and recently tried Vanguard and played Wow for about 6 months. What I don't get is how a game like WoW can have 8 million subscribers and EQ2 not even close to that.  For sure WoW is a fun game... I have to give it that. But when you look at the two I find EQ2 to be more real and immersive and over all a "Better" game. </p><p> Only thing I can figure is:</p><ol><li>Wow is more vibrant so trying EQ2 takes a bit of getting used to the more "Real world" like graphics.</li><li>EQ2 has higher system requirements</li><li>People play the game they know... or play with others that are playing same game</li><li>People have no clue and the better game, sometimes doesn't have as much success (betamax versus vhs for example)</li></ol><p> I'd like to see EQ2 bring more new players to it..  I think they could..but not sure how to do it. </p><p>Anyway...long live EQ2, and welcome to any new players that join.</p>

[Lornick]

<p>There was a pretty decent thread on this subject a week or two ago.  I don't think there is any one answer to that question.  Lower system requirements certainly help.  A popular brand name and better PR are probably a bigger part though.  SOE has also acquired a lot of 'haters' over the years.  Some of it justifiably, but mostly in ignorance imho.  I can't count the number of posts I've read over the years that have "I'll never purchase another SOE game" or something to that effect.  Usually it's attached something really stupid like a class being nerfed, an item being nerfed, a mount being nerfed, a game mechanic being nerfed, etc (sense a trend here?).  To those people it doesn't even matter that EQ2 is a better game.  They feel the need to "stick it to the man".</p><p>That and EQ2 really is a different game today then it was at launch.  A kinda bad launch with not very good advertising with high system requirements at the time really hurt the subscription numbers.  The system requirements aren't all that bad anymore by todays standards, but unfortunately the game can never be "re-launched".  Maybe some day SOE's PR machine will kick it into high gear and get the game the attention it deserves.</p>

[Boombaa84]

I am one of those SOE haters, Check the fourm handle, bet you can guess why =). But I still tried EQ2 and I love this game, it does kind of bother me that im pumping more money into SOE, but this game is just too awesome to deny

[KelendrosBloodbane]

I went to Wal-Mart the other day to get EoF, they didn't have it. They didn't have any EQ1 or EQ2 games/expansions. There is one reason why we don't have many new players.

[Mordion89]

<p>main reason? imho, is lack of advertisement, marketing strategies to promote this game.</p><p>you can see WoW advertisement is almost every single pc gaming magazine, but how often do you see a single page or even a banner of eq2 related stuff in a gaming magazine?</p><p>all i can say is, people need to know there is such game, in order to play it</p>

[Silvyrbug]

I totally agree--i was at comic-con in 2006, and each and every person in the door got a trial CD of WOW, i have seen so many of them its just sick. I have seen so much advertising of WOW, but i cant find one copy on the shelf at any store except best buy. Whoever calls themself a marketing executive at Sony ought to be fired, then shot.

[interstellarmatter]

<p>#1 reason -</p><p>WoW has t-shirts at Hot Topic stores.  Even my mom and sisters who know nothing about games, commented the other day, ohh..look at those cute shirts.  Isn't World of Warcraft that game you play?</p><p>Their marketing dept does a great job.</p>

[Lakaah]

Lack of recent advertising and boxes on shelves certainly plays its part, but I think the #1 reason is the way the game started out.. The system requirements were too high for many people at the time (not so much of an issue now), the advertisements I saw were all about the graphics (turnoff), and word of mouth was that it was a very group/raid centric game (turnoff again to me and a lot of others). It's pretty hard to really make a big comeback after the first six months have expired.

[Talz]

The problem is EQ2 isn't for Sony what WoW is for Blizzard. Sony will only spend so much to advertise various products.  EQ2 apparently isn't on their list.  It won't be until they acquire a MMO that rivals or surpasses their consoles that they will rethink things. Their marketing department doesn't suck.  They just don't think EQ2 is worth pulling resources from somewhere else and they're probably right because they're the ones betting their jobs on it. None of this is knocking EQ2.  It's just the way things work.

[Bawang]

I've just played the LOTRO beta and compared to EQ2, LOTRO seems like an amateurish attempt.  I've come back to EQ2 now, I also think it's the best MMO ATM.  But when it comes to marketing EQ2 is the best kept secret.  They don't spend any money in advertising and it's a shame.  I've be willing to bet that most people who wind up giving EQ2 a try is because of word of mouth, or research through their own initiative, not because they saw a cool ad advertising EQ2.

[Mordion89]

<cite>Talzar wrote:</cite><blockquote>The problem is EQ2 isn't for Sony what WoW is for Blizzard. Sony will only spend so much to advertise various products.  EQ2 apparently isn't on their list.  It won't be until they acquire a MMO that rivals or surpasses their consoles that they will rethink things. Their marketing department doesn't suck.  They just don't think EQ2 is worth pulling resources from somewhere else and they're probably right because they're the ones betting their jobs on it. None of this is knocking EQ2.  It's just the way things work. </blockquote><p> i suppose this is the only way to explain the lack of advertising, i certainly have seen lots and lots of advertisement from Sony, such as Sony Bravia LCDs, Sony Handycam, Sony Cybershot, Sony Ericsson mobile phones, Sony Pictures (spiderman 3 recently), Sony BMG, Sony VAIO laptop, Sony playstation/psp, Sony walkman, arghhhhhh, the word "sony" makes my brain hurts now lol</p><p>BUT, there is hardly ANY eq2 advertisement, which is real sad, sigh...</p>

[tass]

lol sony doesnt advertise for any of there games. Hell look at vanguard it isnt even wholey there game they just put it on shelves and they dont even advertise it. lol and its kind of ironic that the team of people who made the game switched from microsoft to sony for better advertising and marketing. lol so lets look at this how many times do u see an xbox game advertised on ur tv. Now lets look at ANY sony game. Talk about a [Removed for Content] up there. That contract would be terminated by the end of the year and that game would be on ever 360 console worldwide with plenty of advertising and dare I say it........ stocked on shelves. Go into a ebgames, gamestop, any kind of electronics store or game store, a wal marts, a best buy how many sony games do u see displayed how many games are even on the shelves being stocked and not just in that crap isle where they throw the stuff in there and say whatever we have is there? not to many. Now lets look at wow. I walk in there and first thing I see is wow in the window. WoW on the sides of me in the doorway. Wow on the cashiers desk, wow on the carts wow on the cealing, wow on the tv, wow on the posters wow on the mic keychains, wow being brainwashed subliminally into ur dam dreams lol. And thats why wow will always have millions and billions of customers and all sony games combined wont. lol and its not the way the games are made either. Do you know that anyone ive ever run into in any other game even my friends from my halo clan who play wow have never heard of this game. They think eq2 is another first person shooter or somthing lol.

[Norrsken]

There are a few reasons as to more people playing WoW. <ul><li>Wow is easier. Instant gratification.</li><li>Wow is more popular. (Everyones buddies play it) </li><li>Wow is made by blizzard.</li><li>EQ2 didnt get commercials.</li><li>EQ2 is made by a company that has a bad rep from SWG.</li><li>EQ2 had a bad launch. </li></ul>Seriously, about all of the people I know that play WoW started playing it solely because of two words on the box. Blizzard and Warcraft. 1/3rd of them either already stopped playing since blizzard actually dropped the ball bigtime, and the rest of that third is still playing, but hatingt he game. They keep playing since everyone else plays it. Hive mentality. Those few that actually tried out EQ2 flat out loved it. And pretty much all of them said it does most stuff WoW does, only better. But the real kicker is the community in EQ2. ITs fairly mature (With the exception of perhaps nagafen. ) I dont want the community in wow to come over here. I hate that community. They can keep their dumbed down MMO. Stay on that side of the fence. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Lasai]

I honestly think SOE is transiting to purely online retailing of thier games. No boxes, no middleman, no CD costs, and actually, I do think it is the future.. look at MP3 history as a precedent. I'm glad, at this time, they are not actively pursuing a larger market share. I was a victim of the Lucas-Driven NGE of SWG..a blatent attempt at a larger "target audience" at the expense of veteran players. I like the fact that EQ2 is kind of a well kept secret, and people have to make an effort to find it. After that.. its not hard, SOE has a very friendly trial policy, once someone takes the time to find the game, SOE makes getting into it very easy online. It seems to me SOE is presenting this game to an MMO player in seach of a better game.. instead of an impulse buyer wandering through Best Buy looking for shiney box art or posters. Let Blizz bring the console crowd into MMOs. That is the point of thier in the face advertising, and it works. WOW is very definately an entry level MMO anyway. When the segment of that market that needs a deeper MMO experience grows tired of WOW, they seek out and find EQ2, so, it works for me. Also, I went through a period of blaming SOE for SWG-NGE. I don't now, they run this game without interference from anyone, and do a very nice job of it. I feel Lucas drove the debacle that was SWG.

[Azzikai]

<p>I would put a whole lot of the blame squarely on the launch of EQ2. It launched against WoW (dumb idea), it launched with quite a few brand new mechanics barely tested (I recall a lot of changes the last few weeks in beta) and it launched with insane PC requirements compared to its competitors. That's not the whole story, of course, but a pretty good summation. Add to that some seriously suspect statements made by members of the EQ2 staff at the time (Froglok quest is in, really!) and you're going to have a hard time recovering from that. </p><p>Today's EQ2 is not the one I didn't buy on release. It is a lot more solo friendly, has had wholesale changes to the classes to make them more diverse (compared to what it was in beta...don't want to start that argument) and is now being ran by people who genuinely seem to know what they are doing. Unfortunately, none of that matters to a lot of gamers, they just don't give products a second chance.</p><p>Honestly, though, I don't think normal advertising would be all that helpful. I don't think full page ads in PC gaming magazines are going to make people say "oh, this glossy page looks pretty, I will go by this now!". How could it when you go into numerous gaming stores and can't find it? Getting the product on the shelves, getting the online gaming sites into the game and reviewing it as it is today and being active with the existing community to the point where it is doing the advertising for you is a better bet in the long run. Word of mouth is powerful, moreso than any mutli-million dollar ad campaign could ever hope to be.</p>

[theriatis]

<p>Hi,</p><p>i can just give you one reason why there are not much German players...</p><p>I don't know if the other - non-English-players on non-english-language-servers have the same problems, but at least the German Translation sucks BIG TIME.</p><p>There is a Sticker on the Package which tells you the game is "completely german" or at least there was one as i bought it. Many people who don't have any clue of english or do have only mediocre english skills (as i) are just unwilling to play a game which they don't understand.</p><p>To LOTRO: I, too, played the Beta and came back, because the Lack of Charakterklasses. But, i admit, the Localization was 10 days before release better, than EQ2 will have in the next 5 Years !!!</p><p>But this Topic is/was discussed to death, i just brought it as one reason why the game in the non-english-land doesn't attract non-english-speaking gamers, because every other game does a hell of a job there.</p><p>Regards, theriatis (Valor).</p>

[cartmania01]

<p>advertisement, bad customer service, very bad in-game history-line, those are the main reasons<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>to <b>theriatis, stop whining, ur english is fine come play on runnyeye or splitpaw<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></b></p>

[gaitano]

IMHO, I hope it stays low profile. There are still new players still starting this game, RL friend just told me he is starting it. I don't think it is going anywhere anytime soon, look at EQ1 still going. Personally, I don't want the player base that WoW has.  I tried WoW and although I didn't like the gameplay as much as EQ2, it was the player base that turned me off. Not trying to generalize WoW players, I am sure they have some good ones just like we have some bad ones, but it seemed very immature. I turned a duel down, and he spent the rest of the evening following me just to annoy me.  And don't get me started on how many times I saw people dancing in populated areas with there armor/clothes off, and then it started to really go downhill.  Frankly, I hope we stay at are current lvl. The way I look at it, we have about 10% 'immature' players where WoW has about 10% decent players. As to the other games, I personally feel the games are lacking more then the playerbase.  I tried Vanguard and Lotro but imo don't come close to the quality game EQ2 is. I know this post has been a little off topic, but I think SOE knows what they are doing. Ya they could make more money if they had the subscribers WoW has. But as I read from another post, they are not all subscribers like EQ2's where it is monthly, so not sure that it is as profitable as 8 million x 14.99 per month. And I can only imagine the expense that would be needed to cover that kind of player base, and imo EQ2 customers are a bit more mature, which means less customer service issues. Imagine what it would be like to have 8 million immature customers calling or emailing whenever something doesn't go there way. My business is similar, unfortunetly, on the WoW side. I have a large customer base in my line of work, and am very tempted to do what SOE has done and cut down on staffing, expenses, and let the competition take the less desirable clients and I can focus on a better product for my 'good' clients (more loyal, less headaches, etc) and still have the same profit margin. Just my 2 cents!

[Polywogus]

I didn't play @ launch, but I know many people that did, & they left for a variety of reasons. Every time I mention, 'Hey, forget -gameX- & come play EQ2 =D ', I hear "Well when I played @ launch, blahhhhhh". This in turn leads me to believe that, along w/ marketing, CS, & other reasons listed in this thread, that lots of peeps weren't thrilled w/ that they got upon launch. A few of them I've managed to wrangle back into SOE's throes & they then say, "Wow, this game is so much different!" (& they stay to play too <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Talz]

Kofi@Blackburrow wrote: <blockquote>IMHO, I hope it stays low profile. There are still new players still starting this game, RL friend just told me he is starting it. I don't think it is going anywhere anytime soon, look at EQ1 still going. Personally, I don't want the player base that WoW has.  I tried WoW and although I didn't like the gameplay as much as EQ2, it was the player base that turned me off. Not trying to generalize WoW players, I am sure they have some good ones just like we have some bad ones, but it seemed very immature. I turned a duel down, and he spent the rest of the evening following me just to annoy me.  And don't get me started on how many times I saw people dancing in populated areas with there armor/clothes off, and then it started to really go downhill.  Frankly, I hope we stay at are current lvl. The way I look at it, we have about 10% 'immature' players where WoW has about 10% decent players. As to the other games, I personally feel the games are lacking more then the playerbase.  I tried Vanguard and Lotro but imo don't come close to the quality game EQ2 is. I know this post has been a little off topic, but I think SOE knows what they are doing. Ya they could make more money if they had the subscribers WoW has. But as I read from another post, they are not all subscribers like EQ2's where it is monthly, so not sure that it is as profitable as 8 million x 14.99 per month. And I can only imagine the expense that would be needed to cover that kind of player base, and imo EQ2 customers are a bit more mature, which means less customer service issues. Imagine what it would be like to have 8 million immature customers calling or emailing whenever something doesn't go there way. My business is similar, unfortunetly, on the WoW side. I have a large customer base in my line of work, and am very tempted to do what SOE has done and cut down on staffing, expenses, and let the competition take the less desirable clients and I can focus on a better product for my 'good' clients (more loyal, less headaches, etc) and still have the same profit margin. Just my 2 cents! </blockquote>I don't have a WoW account but I've played it a few times.  I think the "Bnet kiddies" line of thinking people use to constantly slam it isn't fair.  Take the EQ2 population and add a few million to it and people would be the same.  It isn't that WoW is full of immature players.  It's that good old rule about hearing ten loud and obnoxious people for every one intelligent person when the public is given a platform to speak. I honestly believe so many people on these boards hate WoW because it's entertaining.  I think it's very fair to say a lot of people get too into the EQs.  Now because of the vast population difference WoW just might have more unhealthy players but I really believe if we could get the numbers the EQ ratio would be much worse and the ratio is all that matters. The reason for this is simple.  EQ and EQ2 look more realistic so it gives people an easier transition into living vicariously through their avatars.  I don't think it's fair to say EQ players are more mature.  I think it's fair to say that EQ players in general, may take the video game much more serious and that isn't always good.  I know a lot of people in EQ2 and WoW because I kept in touch with most of the people I met in EQ1.  I know <b><i><u>many</u></i></b> more parents here with hundreds of days played than I do there.  Anecdotal?  Of course.  However it's just a single example of where this blanket moral high ground that we see on these boards doesn't apply.

[Windowlicker]

<p>Either:</p><p>1. EQ2 has a horrible marketing team.</p><p>or</p><p>2. SoE is not funding the marketing for this game enough.</p><p>or</p><p>3. SoE is not funding the marketing for this game enough, and has a horrible marketing team.</p>

[Talz]

<cite>Azzikai wrote:</cite><blockquote> ... Honestly, though, I don't think normal advertising would be all that helpful. I don't think full page ads in PC gaming magazines are going to make people say "oh, this glossy page looks pretty, I will go by this now!". How could it when you go into numerous gaming stores and can't find it? Getting the product on the shelves, getting the online gaming sites into the game and reviewing it as it is today and being active with the existing community to the point where it is doing the advertising for you is a better bet in the long run. Word of mouth is powerful, moreso than any mutli-million dollar ad campaign could ever hope to be.</blockquote>You're absolutely correct about the getting the product on the shelves but don't doubt the power of well run campaigns.  The main goal of big league advertising is to plant as many seeds as possible where they wouldn't have been planted otherwise.  People don't really need to like or even want to buy your product but if you can get as many people as possible to remember the name and not hate it because of bad or lowbrow advertising then our herd instinct kicks in.  To be blunt, many Americans are sheep.  People don't buy $180 sunglasses that are too tight on their heads and cost $4.75 to make because they love tight sunglasses and are charitable.

[liveja]

<cite>Talzar wrote:</cite><blockquote>I honestly believe so many people on these boards hate WoW because it's entertaining </blockquote><p>I don't hate WoW at all. I think WoW has a lot of fine things about it.</p><p>I just happen to think that EQ2 is a *vastly* better game.</p>

[Adrynyn]

I wasn't with EQ2 at launch (probably a good thing) but I did hear about it for a while before I joined through word of mouth. I didn't, however, hear anything about WoW until I joined EQ2 and had been involved for a while. Our guild is full of folks who were with EQ2 at launch, and they've felt compelled to share horror stories of things that were irritating from the get-go which I'm glad are no longer in effect (like the old adventure class building system, lengthy betrayal quests, or quests just to gain access to the city of your alignment). I've never played WoW myself, but our guild is full of people who either came just from WoW to EQ2 or were with EQ2 at launch, switched to WoW, then came back again. The biggest complaint I've heard is that WoW is too easy and gives too much for too little. The second gripe has to do with the maturity level of a lot of the WoW players vs EQ2 players, presumeably because it draws a lot younger audience. I cann't vouche for either of these complaints personally, they are just reoccuring themes when the WoW bashing begins. EQ2 is my first and only MMO. I've happy with it and haven't felt the need to try another, but then, I also came into the game after a lot of the especially annoying things were fixed and all the expansions became available...I've only begun to scratch the surface...

[Kellin]

<p>I played at launch for about 6 months, took a year off, and came back.  I'm still not sure why I quit - I know I was pretty burned out, but I was also playing a mystic back when wards were still broken and I definitely remember feeling pretty bummed out about how poorly I healed.  I had 4 years of EQL under my belt by that time, and maybe it was a combination of the two factors.</p><p>Launch of EQ2 wasn't all <i>that</i> bad.  The actual launch - putting the game formally online - went remarkably smoothly.   WoW, on the other hand, had a <i>terrible</i> time; crashing servers, long waits, etc...their inexperience with launching a MMORPG showed, and SOE's hard-earned experience showed.  EQ2's problems were the kind that only show up under extreme stress-testing conditions, and while I do feel they launched too soon, it wasn't unplayable.  Yes, there were a lot of things that sounded good on paper that ended up being ditched (my personal one is the voice-overs; everyone was raving about them and I knew that after the first couple of days they'd just become annoying), but a lot of that can't really be figured out until you get a fully representative game population giving you feedback.</p><p>(As for the voice overs - "Stop, kitty, come back here!"  "Have you ever seen a gnoll before?" and "I want some crunchies! Can somebody get me some crunchies?" OMG OMG, shut up, please!)</p><p>I have a friend that plays WoW.  He used to play EQL, and has the "SOE hate" thing going.  He also said he tried to log in to EQ2 and found the whole launch pad thing to be too much trouble (??? and waiting in login queues is better?), and that he didn't want to deal with it.  </p><p>I don't think it's much to deal with, but I will agree that signing up could be simplified and more clearly explained.  The online game manual is very hard to find and isn't updated regularly, so it's full of seriously outdated information.  The game isn't shelved at many stores and SOE doesn't seem motivated to do anything about it.  The EQ2 and SOE bashers are very loud and very numerous, giving the game a bad rap in the online gaming community.</p><p>It seems that in order to expand the playerbase, it's going to be on the shoulders of the players to get the word out there that EQ2 is a great game.</p>

[gaitano]

<cite>Talzar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Kofi@Blackburrow wrote: <blockquote>IMHO, I hope it stays low profile. There are still new players still starting this game, RL friend just told me he is starting it. I don't think it is going anywhere anytime soon, look at EQ1 still going. Personally, I don't want the player base that WoW has.  I tried WoW and although I didn't like the gameplay as much as EQ2, it was the player base that turned me off. Not trying to generalize WoW players, I am sure they have some good ones just like we have some bad ones, but it seemed very immature. I turned a duel down, and he spent the rest of the evening following me just to annoy me.  And don't get me started on how many times I saw people dancing in populated areas with there armor/clothes off, and then it started to really go downhill.  Frankly, I hope we stay at are current lvl. The way I look at it, we have about 10% 'immature' players where WoW has about 10% decent players. As to the other games, I personally feel the games are lacking more then the playerbase.  I tried Vanguard and Lotro but imo don't come close to the quality game EQ2 is. I know this post has been a little off topic, but I think SOE knows what they are doing. Ya they could make more money if they had the subscribers WoW has. But as I read from another post, they are not all subscribers like EQ2's where it is monthly, so not sure that it is as profitable as 8 million x 14.99 per month. And I can only imagine the expense that would be needed to cover that kind of player base, and imo EQ2 customers are a bit more mature, which means less customer service issues. Imagine what it would be like to have 8 million immature customers calling or emailing whenever something doesn't go there way. My business is similar, unfortunetly, on the WoW side. I have a large customer base in my line of work, and am very tempted to do what SOE has done and cut down on staffing, expenses, and let the competition take the less desirable clients and I can focus on a better product for my 'good' clients (more loyal, less headaches, etc) and still have the same profit margin. Just my 2 cents! </blockquote>I don't have a WoW account but I've played it a few times.  I think the "Bnet kiddies" line of thinking people use to constantly slam it isn't fair.  Take the EQ2 population and add a few million to it and people would be the same.  It isn't that WoW is full of immature players.  It's that good old rule about hearing ten loud and obnoxious people for every one intelligent person when the public is given a platform to speak. I honestly believe so many people on these boards hate WoW because it's entertaining.  I think it's very fair to say a lot of people get too into the EQs.  Now because of the vast population difference WoW just might have more unhealthy players but I really believe if we could get the numbers the EQ ratio would be much worse and the ratio is all that matters. The reason for this is simple.  EQ and EQ2 look more realistic so it gives people an easier transition into living vicariously through their avatars.  I don't think it's fair to say EQ players are more mature.  I think it's fair to say that EQ players in general, may take the video game much more serious and that isn't always good.  I know a lot of people in EQ2 and WoW because I kept in touch with most of the people I met in EQ1.  I know <b><i><u>many</u></i></b> more parents here with hundreds of days played than I do there.  Anecdotal?  Of course.  However it's just a single example of where this blanket moral high ground that we see on these boards doesn't apply. </blockquote>Maybe you are correct in saying the ratio is the same in EQ2 compared to WoW. I have no numbers to back anything up, just my opinion. But you confirmed how I feel, you hear a lot more obnoxious (that is a good term for it) people in WoW then in EQ2 just from the number of players there, maybe the feed off each other, who knows. I never meant to their game apart, I merely stated I like EQ2 gameplay better, so I don't 'hate WoW because it's entertaining', I just don't enjoy the WoW playerbase. You also could be right about EQ2 players taking it more serious and it may not always be a good thing. But it still confirms my opinion that I would rather play with the EQ2 player then WoW. And I hope it stays were it is at.

[Azzikai]

<cite>Talzar wrote:</cite><blockquote>You're absolutely correct about the getting the product on the shelves but don't doubt the power of well run campaigns.  The main goal of big league advertising is to plant as many seeds as possible where they wouldn't have been planted otherwise.  People don't really need to like or even want to buy your product but if you can get as many people as possible to remember the name and not hate it because of bad or lowbrow advertising then our herd instinct kicks in.  To be blunt, many Americans are sheep.  People don't buy $180 sunglasses that are too tight on their heads and cost $4.75 to make because they love tight sunglasses and are charitable. </blockquote><p>I agree with you regarding average consumers in general but I don't consider gamers average. The amount of passionate hate they can have for a gaming company because of one decision, that didn't actually directly impact them, which was made 5 years ago, in a game they don't even play anymore, is staggering. I don't see near the same amount of effort being put forth by people regarding their soda choices <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>There may be something to glossy advertising if you want to get non-MMO players to take a look at your game but the already existing playerbase that is out there wont care. They already know about your game, they may have played it at launch or they've seen it talked about on message boards or even in the game they are currently playing and all they've seen is bad (generalizing there). When they see a high producution cost commercial or a huge spread in a gaming mag they are more likely to make snide comments regarding spending revenue on ads instead of spending it on more people to work on the game being advertised (and you can be sure that their little quip will end up on their favorite forum in some thread regarding the game in question, causing a nice little flame war). </p><p>In short, MMO gamers are jaded and bitter. The non-MMO gamer, well, the whole genre isn't exactly held in high regard outside of the WoW name recognition (at least not on the forums I visit). It is that sheep issue you mentioned, but in reverse I guess.</p>

[Vukota]

<p>Did any one see the front page of Yahoo last evening...LOTRO article with a video link attached and review. </p><p>SOE's advertising budget must be on par with my daughter's allowance. </p>

[UlteriorModem]

<p>WoW's success is easy to explain.</p><p> They cater to the lowest common denominator.</p><p> Oh Id like to have a small percentage of that allowence.</p>

[Adrynyn]

I can't help but agree about the horrors of the voice overs, especially in Starcrest Commune, where all the offenders you mentioned reside. Don't forget the "can you believe Vandis..." guy and that Bemo guy with his @#$% fermented beverages speech...almost enough to make me a hater right there... I guess it makes very little sense for me to take information I hear about WoW from people who ditched it to play (or go back to) EQ2 too impartially...after all, they have to have SOME dislike for the game to have left it, even if they are trying to be purely factual in their arguments. The sad thing is I'll never know what makes one better than the other, because I like EQ2 and have no plans to try anything new any time soon (unlike my friends who urged me to come play it then ditched me for the horrendous Vanguard test server the moment I started EQ2).

[Raveller]

<p>This is a topic that keeps popping up, but in these threads I don't see anyone discussing the benefits of playing a game with a lower population. So what if WoW has 8 billion subscribers if there are only about a half dozen players there with whom you would want to group?</p><p>I am an avowed SOE hater due to the ruination of SWG and the horrendous lack of anything resembling customer service that has been a standard business practice of SOE's for many years, Even so, with all of the changes that EQ2 has undergone and with an excellent expansion in EoF and the quality of character of most of the players I encounter (on AB server at least) , EQ2 is now an excellent game to play. This is the only game I will be playing for quite a while. Quality over quantity.</p>

[Wyeth]

<p>Well SOE did TV spots to advertise SWG but they were inaccurate and a bit lame, for example, the servers are not up 7x24, you can't meet Yoda and there's NOT always something new to do nor new quests.  Hopefully they would get someone who actually plays the game to interview for an EQ2 spot if they ever do one.</p><p>SWG Commercial 1 - <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7xozVbW9Jg" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7xozVbW9Jg</a></p><p>SWG Commercial 2 -  <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XJxyBMCzxQ" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XJxyBMCzxQ</a></p>

[Darian]

I just started playing again after taking a few months off and decided to make a Fae, I'm level 24 and have yet to be able to get a group. Guess its back to my level 70, just thought it would have been nice to have a new character and try all the new content with EoF.

[Raveller]

Kintaka@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote>I just started playing again after taking a few months off and decided to make a Fae, I'm level 24 and have yet to be able to get a group. Guess its back to my level 70, just thought it would have been nice to have a new character and try all the new content with EoF. </blockquote>At level 22, I'm not having any trouble getting groups.

[Adrynyn]

I'm not sure if it's the server or what, but I often see folks on our server with established groups in different areas (usually RoV, CT, or SH) looking for members. Of course, there is an equal number of folks looking for groups as well. I do agree with the statement earlier about the benefits of a smaller population. Less competition for resources and more familiarity with your fellow players is not a bad thing. Of course, I live in an exchange server for a variety of reasons, so I have to put up with a fair share of the population just there to make real money, but there are plenty of nice helpful folks there too...

[Wilin]

<p>Everywhere I go, WoW is on the shelf. And usually several copies of it.</p><p>I've seen 1 copy of EQ2 on the shelf at one retail location in the past 3 months. I travel alot across multiple states and visit many different retailers in my shopping frenzy.</p><p>1 copy of EQ2...</p>

[Steelbreath]

I introduced my wife to the game last year, she has subsequently introduced this game to two other co-workers, one who now has her husband playing. This is what will sustain the game, but it does require us gamers to spread the word. I really don't like seeing WoW slammed, it's a fun game and does many things right. There isn't anything really substantially different from any of the current crop of MMOs, it usually boils down to player preference. The only thing I will agree on is the median age of EQ2 players does seem higher, and that I do appreciate.

[Polywogus]

I can see the benefits of a lower population (especially after having played WoW a bit). However, I also don't see EQ2's population shooting thru the roof over a few boxes being distributed to the retail chains (which would be a good thing, more players, but not gobs... Every time I go into a shop, I'll always find an old Luclin or GoD expansion from EQ1...but never EQ2 <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Galabri]

<p>EQ2 lost me shortly after PvP was implemented.  </p><p> I had a nice thing going in PvE, with a nice house, best mount (beginning of 2006), good business making furniture, etc.</p><p> PvP came, I made a nice PvP character, made a weaponsmith - gold was pouring in, lots of customers, great equipment for my character including a mount...</p><p> <Cycle begins></p><p>Group of level 20ish <insert affiliation> invade an instance, wipe out resistance in a few minutes.  Group of level 30ish <opposite affiliation> arrive and slaughter the invaders.</p><p>The defeated invaders log on their level 40ish, wipe out the remaining level 30ish from previous round, then <opposite affiliation> main characters (50s) are logged on, wipe out the level 40ish.</p><p>At this time, whichever side has more "high level" characters logged on, dominates the place by camping spawn zones and entrances, and you are back at square one...  trying to figure out which instance will give more of a chance to actually play on this server.</p><p>Naturally, the PvE character with all of its riches and whatnot no longer interests you - there's no adrenaline pumping action in PvE compared to PvP.  But - PvP is over with for that night, unless you sit there until all the high levels leave, to log back on and start the whole thing over and over again.  So... that's when I went back to Planetside, where levels don't matter, but the skill does.  That was March of 2006 - now Planetside is nearly dead as well, waiting for my copy of LOTRO to kill my time with.  </p><p> End of story for me.  Not coming back, no matter what the perks - but do miss those few first months, those first friends, miss them greatly.  Good luck.</p>

[Fu]

The reason is not popular in Europe is lack of promotion and support. We never see EQ2 advertised, European support is a joke. There a lot of online gamers in Euro land and SoE is missing a big chunk of the market here. ( Which unfortunatly WoW has now ) EQ2 is still one of the best mmo's i've played but ignoring the Europeans ( the Euro pvp server delays and lack of communication has driven almost all of the Darathar population away ) is not helping the population grow, in fact it seems to be shrinking rapidly. No Fan Faires, no competitions etc etc

[Bawang]

<cite>Vukota wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>SOE's advertising budget must be on par with my daughter's allowance. </p></blockquote> Man, you're such a cheapskate!

[JasmineTea]

I hated SOE a lot...mainly because of their customer service (non-existance), and for ruining a great game such as SWG. Then I decided to give them a chance again at EQ2 when it was released, I quit within a month. Then again, I'm a very forgiving person (you will be when you have no other MMO to play). I've been reading about EQ2 recently, and decided to hop back in last month, to my suprise, much had changed to the better side. I won't exactly vote it as the best MMO around, as I found that each MMO have their distinct flavour (EVE, FF11, GW, AO...etc). Still, it just upsets me to see EQ2 being shadowed by WOW...which IMHO doesn't contain much depth. Perhaps thats the main reason that it attracts so many players (mainly kids).

[Thunderthyze]

<cite>JackBurtonBTLC wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I have played pretty much all MMO and recently tried Vanguard and played Wow for about 6 months. What I don't get is how a game like WoW can have 8 million subscribers and EQ2 not even close to that.  </p></blockquote><p> It's called "advertising".</p><p>SOE prefers to develop it's player base by word of mouth apparently. I don't know, I used to get pretty angry over this topic but maybe it is the right way to go. Hopefully then we end up getting far fewer MMORPG noobs and a greater percentage of more knowlegable players who have tried other, more visible, games and come to EQ2 knowing what they are looking for?</p><p>Nothing against the new players but it is a bit annoying when one latches on to you and asks questions like "I've created this character, what do I do now?" or "Why is this gnoll attacking me?". Let them learn the basics in WoW then move on when they realise its limitations.</p>

[Thunderthyze]

<cite>Galabriel wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>EQ2 lost me shortly after PvP was implemented.  </p><p> I had a nice thing going in PvE, with a nice house, best mount (beginning of 2006), good business making furniture, etc.</p><p> PvP came, I made a nice PvP character, made a weaponsmith - gold was pouring in, lots of customers, great equipment for my character including a mount...</p><p> <Cycle begins></p><p>Group of level 20ish <insert affiliation> invade an instance, wipe out resistance in a few minutes.  Group of level 30ish <opposite affiliation> arrive and slaughter the invaders.</p><p>The defeated invaders log on their level 40ish, wipe out the remaining level 30ish from previous round, then <opposite affiliation> main characters (50s) are logged on, wipe out the level 40ish.</p><p>At this time, whichever side has more "high level" characters logged on, dominates the place by camping spawn zones and entrances, and you are back at square one...  trying to figure out which instance will give more of a chance to actually play on this server.</p><p>Naturally, the PvE character with all of its riches and whatnot no longer interests you - there's no adrenaline pumping action in PvE compared to PvP.  But - PvP is over with for that night, unless you sit there until all the high levels leave, to log back on and start the whole thing over and over again.  So... that's when I went back to Planetside, where levels don't matter, but the skill does.  That was March of 2006 - now Planetside is nearly dead as well, waiting for my copy of LOTRO to kill my time with.  </p><p> End of story for me.  Not coming back, no matter what the perks - but do miss those few first months, those first friends, miss them greatly.  Good luck.</p></blockquote>I'd ask you if I could have your stuff but I guess it was all pillaged?

[Skass50]

<p>I just started playing EQ2 again and I got to say the game has gotten so much better.  I think it's by far the best MMORPGs that's out at the moment.  However where I live (Britain) I can not find a single copy of it in any Game shop.  It's almost as if SOE have given up on the UK market.<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Azzikai]

<cite>Skass5000 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I just started playing EQ2 again and I got to say the game has gotten so much better.  I think it's by far the best MMORPGs that's out at the moment.  However where I live (Britain) I can not find a single copy of it in any Game shop.  It's almost as if SOE have given up on the UK market.<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote><p>This is a huge issue and always has been for SOE. Since they ditched Ubisoft (who wasn't exactly great) there is zero European presence and I just don't get why. Well, maybe I do. I remember a conversation on the pre-release EQ2 boards regarding Europeans and their internet connections and it was hilarious how many Americans thought that Europe was pretty much stuck in the 1980's as far as technology goes. Apparently, to many, all Europeans are paying per hour for their 56k connection...(and before anyone gets upset, I AM an American, I just don't live there anymore). </p><p>Perhaps SOE just hasn't caught on to the fact that the Euro market is huge. I played WoW and I ran into more full on raid guilds composed of only one European nationality than total raiding guilds my server here. The market is there, SOE just ignores it. It bugs me, moreso because I've been on the other end of their service in the US and the difference, well, you'd just have to move to see how crap it is over here. </p><p>My two local gaming stores have multiple copies of CoH, CoV, all 3 GW, WoW, D&D online and should have LOTRO. EQ? EQ2? Where are they? One of them doesn't even list EQ products as being available for special order online (the other I haven't checked). And if that wasn't bad enough, if you ask the people working there about EQ2 you are more than likely going to get a blank stare in return - they don't even know it exists. </p>

[baguetteovenfresh]

<cite>JackBurtonBTLC wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I have played pretty much all MMO and recently tried Vanguard and played Wow for about 6 months. What I don't get is how a game like WoW can have 8 million subscribers and EQ2 not even close to that.  For sure WoW is a fun game... I have to give it that. But when you look at the two I find EQ2 to be more real and immersive and over all a "Better" game. </p><p> Only thing I can figure is:</p><ol><li>Wow is more vibrant so trying EQ2 takes a bit of getting used to the more "Real world" like graphics.</li><li>EQ2 has higher system requirements</li><li>People play the game they know... or play with others that are playing same game</li><li>People have no clue and the better game, sometimes doesn't have as much success (betamax versus vhs for example)</li></ol><p> I'd like to see EQ2 bring more new players to it..  I think they could..but not sure how to do it. </p><p>Anyway...long live EQ2, and welcome to any new players that join.</p></blockquote> part of it is eq2 got TERRIBLE reputation when it was first released. when you had to grind to 10 just to pick your class etc. it has not gotten around to people that it is way more fun now. i only picked up the trial when i was waiting to get into VG beta and i read a post by shayalyn on ten ton hammer. i found that i didnt want to play vanguard after that - bugs aside <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Despak]

<cite>Azzikai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Skass5000 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I just started playing EQ2 again and I got to say the game has gotten so much better.  I think it's by far the best MMORPGs that's out at the moment.  However where I live (Britain) I can not find a single copy of it in any Game shop.  It's almost as if SOE have given up on the UK market.<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote><p>This is a huge issue and always has been for SOE. Since they ditched Ubisoft (who wasn't exactly great) there is zero European presence and I just don't get why. Well, maybe I do. I remember a conversation on the pre-release EQ2 boards regarding Europeans and their internet connections and it was hilarious how many Americans thought that Europe was pretty much stuck in the 1980's as far as technology goes. Apparently, to many, all Europeans are paying per hour for their 56k connection...(and before anyone gets upset, I AM an American, I just don't live there anymore). </p><p>Perhaps SOE just hasn't caught on to the fact that the Euro market is huge. I played WoW and I ran into more full on raid guilds composed of only one European nationality than total raiding guilds my server here. The market is there, SOE just ignores it. It bugs me, moreso because I've been on the other end of their service in the US and the difference, well, you'd just have to move to see how crap it is over here. </p><p>My two local gaming stores have multiple copies of CoH, CoV, all 3 GW, WoW, D&D online and should have LOTRO. EQ? EQ2? Where are they? One of them doesn't even list EQ products as being available for special order online (the other I haven't checked). And if that wasn't bad enough, if you ask the people working there about EQ2 you are more than likely going to get a blank stare in return - they don't even know it exists. </p></blockquote><p>I know the feeling.  I run a computer store in Cornwall; building gaming machines and selling gaming software.  So I contact SoE marketing in the hopes of getting some advertising material etc.  The US support were good, quick reply and all positive etc.  However as soon as they said it was all passed over to the European Marketing Manager, nothing, nada, squit.</p><p>So I conclude he is either, dead, dieing, on holiday or (more likely) a useless tosspot who couldn't give a toss about Europe!</p><p>(And no I was always polite, up until the git couldn't even deign to reply with a bugger off or anything else).</p><p>So now we sell WoW by the dozen and have pre-order coming out of our ears for other MMo's etc, but when someone asks me what game I play I still can't sell 'em a boxed copy of that game, because for the European Marketing Manager; Europe doesn't exist! </p>

[Iryss]

<p>Well for my part, i'm a French player of EQ2 since june 2006 and i'm working in the video game industry. And to be honest i play EQ2 because i had played to EQ1. But for player who start MMO with WoW, that's simply impossible to know EQ2. No publicity, no communication, and that's a shame... </p><p> To be honest, since the launch of the game it's simply impossible to find any information about it. Only some videogame website tryed the different extansion to concluded that "EQ2 is a good game but u could not play it because that's impossible to find any product in store !"</p><p> Since Ubisoft and now Koch Media release it in europe that's crazy like they didn't care about EQ2. I ask to a commercial of Koch Media why they didn't made any publicity on EoF on december ? He said me: "Well EQ2 is a dead game, we only count on Vanguard to sell MMO ! </p><p>Thats would simply mean we play to an Great game but none will join us to this wonderfull adventure because the creator of this game have already kill it !!!</p><p>I'm just wondering how long they will continue to make LU and to develop Extansion (I hope they will release Kunark) because i'm not really optimist for the future of EQ2. </p><p>And one Big problem in Europe is : Translation ! More than 3 years to made an 65% translat game is a bit ridiculous. EQ2 have a French and German community who are crying since 3 years to have a fully translat game. UK palyer haven't this problem of course, but this fact is another big problem of the sell of this game. I have tried lots of time to convince WoW player to play EQ2, but they all said me they won't because they don't want to play to an English language game ...</p><p> Blizzard have understand that, WoW has been translat in all language of country where they sell it.</p><p>So i would say to SOE : </p><p>1/ MAKE PUBLICITY, PROMOTE UR GAME, FILL THE STORE !!!</p><p>2/ ADAPT UR PRODUCT TO UR CUSTOMER (Language) </p><p> And u will sell more and keep EQ2 alive...</p>

[MerryMidget]

<cite>Talzar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Kofi@Blackburrow wrote: <blockquote>IMHO, I hope it stays low profile. There are still new players still starting this game, RL friend just told me he is starting it. I don't think it is going anywhere anytime soon, look at EQ1 still going. Personally, I don't want the player base that WoW has.  I tried WoW and although I didn't like the gameplay as much as EQ2, it was the player base that turned me off. Not trying to generalize WoW players, I am sure they have some good ones just like we have some bad ones, but it seemed very immature. I turned a duel down, and he spent the rest of the evening following me just to annoy me.  And don't get me started on how many times I saw people dancing in populated areas with there armor/clothes off, and then it started to really go downhill.  Frankly, I hope we stay at are current lvl. The way I look at it, we have about 10% 'immature' players where WoW has about 10% decent players. As to the other games, I personally feel the games are lacking more then the playerbase.  I tried Vanguard and Lotro but imo don't come close to the quality game EQ2 is. I know this post has been a little off topic, but I think SOE knows what they are doing. Ya they could make more money if they had the subscribers WoW has. But as I read from another post, they are not all subscribers like EQ2's where it is monthly, so not sure that it is as profitable as 8 million x 14.99 per month. And I can only imagine the expense that would be needed to cover that kind of player base, and imo EQ2 customers are a bit more mature, which means less customer service issues. Imagine what it would be like to have 8 million immature customers calling or emailing whenever something doesn't go there way. My business is similar, unfortunetly, on the WoW side. I have a large customer base in my line of work, and am very tempted to do what SOE has done and cut down on staffing, expenses, and let the competition take the less desirable clients and I can focus on a better product for my 'good' clients (more loyal, less headaches, etc) and still have the same profit margin. Just my 2 cents! </blockquote>I don't have a WoW account but I've played it a few times.  I think the "Bnet kiddies" line of thinking people use to constantly slam it isn't fair.  Take the EQ2 population and add a few million to it and people would be the same.  It isn't that WoW is full of immature players.  It's that good old rule about hearing ten loud and obnoxious people for every one intelligent person when the public is given a platform to speak. I honestly believe so many people on these boards hate WoW because it's entertaining.  I think it's very fair to say a lot of people get too into the EQs.  Now because of the vast population difference WoW just might have more unhealthy players but I really believe if we could get the numbers the EQ ratio would be much worse and the ratio is all that matters. The reason for this is simple.  EQ and EQ2 look more realistic so it gives people an easier transition into living vicariously through their avatars.  I don't think it's fair to say EQ players are more mature.  I think it's fair to say that EQ players in general, may take the video game much more serious and that isn't always good.  I know a lot of people in EQ2 and WoW because I kept in touch with most of the people I met in EQ1.  I know <b><i><u>many</u></i></b> more parents here with hundreds of days played than I do there.  Anecdotal?  Of course.  However it's just a single example of where this blanket moral high ground that we see on these boards doesn't apply. </blockquote>I think Blizzard shot itself in the foot with the Burning Crusade. They jumped the shark by adding a sci-fi theme into a classic role playing game and an additional 10 levels that we could grind out in two weeks. There's nothing left to do there except raid. Many people I know are either going to LOTRO or trying EQ2, like myself.

[Cyllus]

<p>  Let see... I've played several soe games; EQ1, Planetside, SWG and EQ2... ok... maybe a few. With EQ1 I played because a friend turned me on to it. Planetside, I tried because of a game review I read in Playboy. SWG, I found out about on another games boards while it (SWG) was in beta. And EQ2 I didn't even know about until someone in my PA in SWG mentioned it.</p><p>   In not one case was SOE's marketing the reason I heard of or played the game and that pretty much says it for me. Sony's marketing seems lacking and what there is doesn't seem effective. The only thing I can remember that soe has tried to promote EQ2 with was the search for Antonia Bayle. (admittedly I don't often peruse game sites for the 'latest and greatest'<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>  I've gotten a few friends to try EQ2 out but, alas, many of the people I game with will not purchase soe products anymore. And while I'm not a fan of all SOE games (dead horse), I do like this game alot.</p><p>  Lack of marketing and bad word of mouth... would have save some space. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Jonger79]

Wal-Mart is the largest Bicycle seller in the country. Have you ever seen a Wal-Mart bike? Now go to a "Bike Shop" and take a look at there bikes. Need I say more?

[PsiberDaemon]

I think advertising plays a big part in it...  heh, I got into EQ2 by accident.  A number of friends played EQ, so they convinced me to get into it.  I had been contemplating WoW, but truth be told, I didn't like the graphics.  A lot of people might think 'well, that's a stupid reason to not play a game' but honestly, why would I spend time (and money) on something that I didn't find visually pleasant?  anyway...  went to the game store and saw EQ2.  Went to the counter and said 'Is this EQ with all the expansions?' his answer?  'yep' ...  didn't even know that it was a completely different system...  so I bought it, installed it and created a character to get my feet wet before hooking up with everyone and finding out what server they were on.  by the time we all realized the mistake, I was a level 10 Kerra Wizzy having a blast.  Stayed with EQ2. Point is, the folks at SOE don't really go out of their way to push EQ2 (or EQ1 for that matter) don't see any ads for it... WoW ads assault us in almost every magazine out there, but SOE stays quiet... Granted, as someone mentioned earlier, that might not be a bad idea...  there's something to be said about having a small player base...  then again, I've seen how crowded it can get.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[bleap]

1) lack of Marketing/advertising 2) too many unneeded game mechanic changes 3) meaningful content updates to few and too far in between 4) lots of new competition 5) lack of customer service 6) Follow the leader (many people left, other followed because they were their friends, guildmates ECT 7) people leaving because server populations are falling....giving the impression the game is failing... the game is not failing, but the rest of this is true...true to the point that EQ2s market share is less than 1/20th of WoW and true to the point where there are servers now with low populations....Next week there is a server merger...Many on Guk are currently debating wether to leave for a more populated server....So what will hapen to those of us who remain? Get xfered to another server via a server merger anyway probably.... Who knows what the future holds...

[bleap]

<cite>Jonger79 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Wal-Mart is the largest Bicycle seller in the country. Have you ever seen a Wal-Mart bike? Now go to a "Bike Shop" and take a look at there bikes. Need I say more? </blockquote>This analogy is crap...Walmart is also the biggest seller of a lot of other things because they are the largest discount retailer in the world.. Sony is MUCH larger company than Blizzard, and you would think they could market a game worthy of their size...but apparently not.... It's all about profit and market share...and EQ2 doesn't hold a candle to WoW in that manner...Sure EQ2 is a better game, but that's meaningless in the real world...it's all about the $$

[Norrsken]

<cite>bleap wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jonger79 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Wal-Mart is the largest Bicycle seller in the country. Have you ever seen a Wal-Mart bike? Now go to a "Bike Shop" and take a look at there bikes. Need I say more? </blockquote>This analogy is crap...Walmart is also the biggest seller of a lot of other things because they are the largest discount retailer in the world.. Sony is MUCH larger company than Blizzard, and you would think they could market a game worthy of their size...but apparently not.... It's all about profit and market share...and EQ2 doesn't hold a candle to WoW in that manner...Sure EQ2 is a better game, but that's meaningless in the real world...it's all about the $$ </blockquote>However, sony and Sony online entertainment are not equivalent. And its only about the $$ as long as you yourself make it about the cash. they are bigger, the trash always had the numbers.

[Dragowulf]

eq2 has no advertising and doesnt sell in major stores here in the U.S. either, it's not just the UK. I went to best buy, eb games, game stop, walmart, circuit city, everywhere i could think of.  None of them had it, and if they did, they only had like 2 copies that were already sold.  nuf said

[Dragowulf]

Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>bleap wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jonger79 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Wal-Mart is the largest Bicycle seller in the country. Have you ever seen a Wal-Mart bike? Now go to a "Bike Shop" and take a look at there bikes. Need I say more? </blockquote>This analogy is crap...Walmart is also the biggest seller of a lot of other things because they are the largest discount retailer in the world.. Sony is MUCH larger company than Blizzard, and you would think they could market a game worthy of their size...but apparently not.... It's all about profit and market share...and EQ2 doesn't hold a candle to WoW in that manner...Sure EQ2 is a better game, but that's meaningless in the real world...it's all about the $$ </blockquote>However, sony and Sony online entertainment are not equivalent. And its only about the $$ as long as you yourself make it about the cash. they are bigger, the trash always had the numbers. </blockquote>sony online entertainment is a branch of sony.  It sony's mmo department to put it in short.

[Snerk]

I didnt even hear about EQ2 at launch. Only thing in my head was WoW. Blizzards games have always been so good, so WoW just had to be good aswell. Well, WoW was good in many ways, but it got boring really fast for me. I still played it this long, only because my friends kept playing it. I played some other mmo's aswell though, couldnt just play WoW. But never ever thought about trying EQ2. Never heared anything about it. Well, finally my friends got a bit tired of WoW too, so I decided to check out some mmo's. Looking at screenshots of EQ2 really made me want to try it, and I brought some friends too. And now we love it, its great.. and I really regret starting with WoW instead of EQ2!

[Norrsken]

<cite>Dragowulf2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>bleap wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jonger79 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Wal-Mart is the largest Bicycle seller in the country. Have you ever seen a Wal-Mart bike? Now go to a "Bike Shop" and take a look at there bikes. Need I say more? </blockquote>This analogy is crap...Walmart is also the biggest seller of a lot of other things because they are the largest discount retailer in the world.. Sony is MUCH larger company than Blizzard, and you would think they could market a game worthy of their size...but apparently not.... It's all about profit and market share...and EQ2 doesn't hold a candle to WoW in that manner...Sure EQ2 is a better game, but that's meaningless in the real world...it's all about the $$ </blockquote>However, sony and Sony online entertainment are not equivalent. And its only about the $$ as long as you yourself make it about the cash. they are bigger, the trash always had the numbers. </blockquote>sony online entertainment is a branch of sony.  It sony's mmo department to put it in short. </blockquote>Its actually a comany that sony owns. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And there is a tiny difference there.

[Norrsken]

<cite>CRAZYLiKE wrote:</cite><blockquote>I didnt even hear about EQ2 at launch. Only thing in my head was WoW. Blizzards games have always been so good, so WoW just had to be good aswell. Well, WoW was good in many ways, but it got boring really fast for me. I still played it this long, only because my friends kept playing it. I played some other mmo's aswell though, couldnt just play WoW. But never ever thought about trying EQ2. Never heared anything about it. Well, finally my friends got a bit tired of WoW too, so I decided to check out some mmo's. Looking at screenshots of EQ2 really made me want to try it, and I brought some friends too. And now we love it, its great.. and I really regret starting with WoW instead of EQ2! </blockquote>My sentiments towards blizzard is that the last really good game they made was starcraft. since then its just been mediocre.

[sayitaintso]

Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>bleap wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jonger79 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Wal-Mart is the largest Bicycle seller in the country. Have you ever seen a Wal-Mart bike? Now go to a "Bike Shop" and take a look at there bikes. Need I say more? </blockquote>This analogy is crap...Walmart is also the biggest seller of a lot of other things because they are the largest discount retailer in the world.. Sony is MUCH larger company than Blizzard, and you would think they could market a game worthy of their size...but apparently not.... It's all about profit and market share...and EQ2 doesn't hold a candle to WoW in that manner...Sure EQ2 is a better game, but that's meaningless in the real world...it's all about the $$ </blockquote>However, sony and Sony online entertainment are not equivalent. And its only about the $$ as long as you yourself make it about the cash. they are bigger, the trash always had the numbers. </blockquote>SOE still has to answer to SONY corporations share holders, just any any other division of SONY. If SOE were to lose money they could find themselves absorbed into SONY proper and disbanded...SOE does make money but if one of their products became a finacial liability they could cancel production of it... If I were a SONY shareholder and knew that SOE didn't actively market what is probably their largest online product I would want an explanation...Especially when I saw the potential of the MMO market using Blizzard's WoW as an example of what a well advertised MMO can be....WoW grosses nearly 100 million dollars a month where EQ2 makes about 5 million....That's a HUGE difference...

[Ironba]

<p>The answere is as simple as two words...</p><div align="center"><span style="font-size: xx-large; color: #ff0000; font-family: comic sans ms,sand"><i><b><u>Leeeeroy Jenkins!</u></b></i></span></div>

[XmortisNox]

<p>Helloo EQers!  I played EQ2 on launch day.  Being an old EQ player, it killed me to leave EQ for EQ2, but i had to try it out.  Not long after too many friends switched to WoW, and i was compelled to follow.  Nearly 2 years later, I'm feeling the EQ itch again.  Coming from a pretty solid wow player, i cant say it's a bad game, it's just missing that depth that keeps EQ around.  Anyway, back to Mistmoore I go!  Though i must say, the class selection is so expansive, picking is killing me.. so dust off good ole Xmortis the 'lock, or start something fresh.. ahh the choices.. see yas in game!! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[liveja]

Stinkii@Guk wrote: <blockquote>SOE still has to answer to SONY corporations share holders, just any any other division of SONY. </blockquote><p>You got business articles, by chance, showing that Sony's share holders are angry about SOE's "failure" to market EQ2 more aggressively? I ask, because I've not heard of such a protest, from which I infer that maybe the situation isn't anywhere near as dire as you think.</p><p>You ever stop to think that maybe Sony is comfy with SOE's overall performance?</p>

[Vilesummon]

I think the overall lack of people playing the game can be summarized with a few thoughts... 1. Marketing is definitely a factor, though I do think SOE was smart to give all the expansions in the eof retail purchase. That being said, seems like a money grab with the "adventure packs". 2. SOE could compete by actually dropping the monthly rate to say $9.95 per month to make it a more attractive option...and the money people save could be used to buy the memory and graphics card you need. 3. I have said it before and I will say it again, I have seen too many people leave the game because you get sick and tired of seeing SOE do NOTHING to stop the botting and hacking issues that people implement. I think if SOE seemed to care about the actual game and protecting the integrity of it, you would have some very loyal people that would return. Instead, you get the standard "we can't tell you what action we take against other players" line, which means, we got your report and we aren't gonna do anything about it. Sure, on occasion SOE will "purge" some of the botters, but it is so infrequent that it is disgusting. It also is a dumb policy to NOT announce actions taken on cheaters. IMO, if player x is well known hacker and you read in the update notes that player x was actually suspended or deleted, it would make others think twice about it too. 4. When accounts hit a certain age, offer them added characters slots so they can try new things. I know some of my friends didn't leave pve to try pvp because they didn't have the slots to try it. I know for sure it is hard to delete some of the characters that you worked on so long. 5. A lot of players (and I was NOT one in the beginning) LOVE pvp, and the fact of the matter is this, eq2 was not set up for pvp initially, it was an afterthought and there are some consequences of that...and to hardcore pvpers they will find a better game to address their bloodlust. Long enough post for now...I may vent more later. lol

[Araxes]

Eq2 does not have the enormous player base that WoW does.  The simple fact is that word of mouth is and always has been the best way to attract more players - provided the quality is there.  (And conversely, if it is not, it's also the fastest way to destroy a marketing campaign.)  It's not a secret that EQ2 got off to a rough start.  But within a year after release they made some very good changes to the UI, the quest system, simple things like quest icons, overhead map icons, performance tweaks, adding in more armor variety (in terms of color, at least).  Continuing along that path, they later revmaped the combat system, revamped the overland zones through level 40, redid the newbie starting areas, added in tons and tons of quests, streamlined the quest lines, added in huge fixes and functionality enhancements to the broker, and got rid of the redundant class archetype system altogether - which was perhaps the biggest bar to the new player experience, going 20 levels before even beginning figuring out if the class you want to play is the right one.  In the interim some of the changes made players unhappy.  The LU13 combat revmap being the biggest of those - but in the long run, such things served to diversify the player classes and make them a bit more distinct than they had been.  As a warlock, I can say firsthand that I was furious about the combat changes to my class in aprticular - we went from being the unquestionable top DPS nukers to being some kind of muddled AE and DoT specialist that came in somewhere in the middle of the DPS chain.  But thankfully most of the kinks have been ironed out and I am now very, very ahppy with my class, and I feel that I am one of the most unique classes in the game. So all things considered, the changes they made have been much for the better. The problem with it is that the bad word of mouth at the launch has cursed the game with a bad rep - to the extent that up until EoF was released, magazines and online media spots like GameSpot and IGN largely ignored running any features on EQ2.  With the more positive reviews of EoF, we can hope that will change in the future, and we will see a slow growing influx of players - already we see people burnt out on WoW. An additional issue is that SOE, in my humble opinion - and I'm by no means an insider on this - has not invested the requisite amount of marketing dollars -- particularly early on in the game's lifespan.  What advertisements I have seen lack any kind of in-game screenshots or feature details - the first thing most gamers look at or care about.  Since they haven't had the press backing them, this is a terrible marketing flaw - again, IMHO.  Finally, the primary website is out of date and lacking in terms of race and class information, class guides, and so on - with exception of the rarely-updated screenshot section.  I hate to compare but look at the Warcraft site - it's stuffed with class guides, tips, and all kinds of information, and it's not static flash - it's updated constantly.  One of my co-workers recently took my word to check out EQ2.  She came back to me and said "I went to the website but they didn't really have a whole lot on there about things."  She's a devoted Warcraft player but she loved the elf, fae, dark elf, and iksar designs I told her about in EQ2.  Another one of my friends said he kept getting errors from the website when trying to download the trial packages, so he just gave up.  It's things like that, small but very significant, that keep a bar in front of new players.  This is a really great game, I don't say that lightly.  I've played WoW, I've played Guild Wars, and recently I took to LOTRO (also an excellent game) -- but in my opinion EQ2, with the exception of some of its bland dungeon and armor graphics, is still the superior game. The best way to get new people into it is to get them excited about it ... talk to your friends, make them want to play it. 

[sayitaintso]

<cite>livejazz wrote:</cite><blockquote>Stinkii@Guk wrote: <blockquote>SOE still has to answer to SONY corporations share holders, just any any other division of SONY. </blockquote><p>You got business articles, by chance, showing that Sony's share holders are angry about SOE's "failure" to market EQ2 more aggressively? I ask, because I've not heard of such a protest, from which I infer that maybe the situation isn't anywhere near as dire as you think.</p><p>You ever stop to think that maybe Sony is comfy with SOE's overall performance?</p></blockquote>How about trying a little reading comprehension. I didn't infer or imply that any such stance by SONY existed. I DID say that SONYs share holders DO demand a performace review of all of SONYs divisions...it's part of a required performance evaluation that all publicly owned companies have to post on a yearly basis (some more frequently than that) I never said that there was any current dissatisfaction. I also didn't say anything about a dire situation..I did say that SOE has the potential to have market share like Blizzard, but for some reason they chose not to try to compete with them... It is possible that Sony is fine with SOEs performance, but I can't think of any stock holder owned company that doesn't want to maximize it's performance...Something SOE has certainly not done....not even close...with EQ2..

[avow]

<p>eq2 does not have enough players on most servers and in most time periods.  The server(s) that are full are not full most of the time.  Soe should use a really recent server build and put all the rp realms into ONE realm and all the regular realms into ONE realm. The active player population is really that low and could be done. They already open up additional zones and instances as needed on the same realm. This game is heuristically responsive so there should be no problem.</p><p>When most players don't see or hear enough players in the area then the game feels empty, even if it is not. Yet, in this case, most account holders are not playing and it is, mostly, empty.  Empty zones, realms, cities, and guilds and a dead LFG system means a hard time getting groups and finishing quests and leveling up.</p><p>I beta and now alpha test games and code for long time friends who live in the North West u.s.  We talk a lot and so far the common thought is that the current game characters/alts are throwaway clones with little to separate them from each other including their names.  Yep. You can usually find your alt's names on other servers which means they are not unique. </p><p>Many players decry and complain that reaching the end level (60, 70, whatever game it is) usually is meaningless as it requires you to get more gear to get even marginally better.  Faction fighting and endless runs of the same instance/dungeon/boss is frustrating and boring to most players.</p><p>Games and forums and fanboies actively encourage you to make new alts if you are bored instead of giving more and more opportunities to refine and internally build the characters. </p><p> Characters are encouraged to get more advanced gear with slightly better stats or look instead of finding ways to increase stats/abilities on the bare character instead. Why? I know why and so do the developers and game sellers.....and third party gold/gear/item sellers.</p><p>Think of all games being like Sony's real world or secondlife with all realms/servers being and Exchange Server. You can't get anywhere unless you pony up the cash and consume your alts rapidly. The games want to make more real life money selling the player virtual game currency, gear, items, services.  </p><p>If you can upgrade your characters internal stats/abilities/etc then you may not need to buy the gear that does this.  The games want you to continue to purchase from them constantly.</p><p>So there is the problem. Players want to diversify and better their alts in many, many ways especially internally (no gear/items/ etc). The Games want to keep alts as cookie cutter as possible (to control play, branding, "fairness" and force players to continually pay real world cash to upgrade their alts externally (buying gear/services/etc).</p><p>Want me and other players back? Allow players to diversify and alter their alts and add internal stats not based on gear or buffs or potions. Think of many many Alternative Advancements!  Reduce the cost of damage in the high levels so we can afford to wear that gear and not be forced to buy plat/gold or go farming for it. Farming is not playing for most of us. But......if what I know is true then expect to pay and pay and pay to play cookie cutter consumable throwaway alts with as very little playability past max level.</p>

[sayitaintso]

<cite>Araxes wrote:</cite><blockquote>Eq2 does not have the enormous player base that WoW does.  The simple fact is that word of mouth is and always has been the best way to attract more players - provided the quality is there.  (And conversely, if it is not, it's also the fastest way to destroy a marketing campaign.)  It's not a secret that EQ2 got off to a rough start.  But within a year after release they made some very good changes to the UI, the quest system, simple things like quest icons, overhead map icons, performance tweaks, adding in more armor variety (in terms of color, at least).  Continuing along that path, they later revmaped the combat system, revamped the overland zones through level 40, redid the newbie starting areas, added in tons and tons of quests, streamlined the quest lines, added in huge fixes and functionality enhancements to the broker, and got rid of the redundant class archetype system altogether - which was perhaps the biggest bar to the new player experience, going 20 levels before even beginning figuring out if the class you want to play is the right one.  In the interim some of the changes made players unhappy.  The LU13 combat revmap being the biggest of those - but in the long run, such things served to diversify the player classes and make them a bit more distinct than they had been.  As a warlock, I can say firsthand that I was furious about the combat changes to my class in aprticular - we went from being the unquestionable top DPS nukers to being some kind of muddled AE and DoT specialist that came in somewhere in the middle of the DPS chain.  But thankfully most of the kinks have been ironed out and I am now very, very ahppy with my class, and I feel that I am one of the most unique classes in the game. So all things considered, the changes they made have been much for the better. The problem with it is that the bad word of mouth at the launch has cursed the game with a bad rep - to the extent that up until EoF was released, magazines and online media spots like GameSpot and IGN largely ignored running any features on EQ2.  With the more positive reviews of EoF, we can hope that will change in the future, and we will see a slow growing influx of players - already we see people burnt out on WoW. An additional issue is that SOE, in my humble opinion - and I'm by no means an insider on this - has not invested the requisite amount of marketing dollars -- particularly early on in the game's lifespan.  What advertisements I have seen lack any kind of in-game screenshots or feature details - the first thing most gamers look at or care about.  Since they haven't had the press backing them, this is a terrible marketing flaw - again, IMHO.  Finally, the primary website is out of date and lacking in terms of race and class information, class guides, and so on - with exception of the rarely-updated screenshot section.  I hate to compare but look at the Warcraft site - it's stuffed with class guides, tips, and all kinds of information, and it's not static flash - it's updated constantly.  One of my co-workers recently took my word to check out EQ2.  She came back to me and said "I went to the website but they didn't really have a whole lot on there about things."  She's a devoted Warcraft player but she loved the elf, fae, dark elf, and iksar designs I told her about in EQ2.  Another one of my friends said he kept getting errors from the website when trying to download the trial packages, so he just gave up.  It's things like that, small but very significant, that keep a bar in front of new players.  This is a really great game, I don't say that lightly.  I've played WoW, I've played Guild Wars, and recently I took to LOTRO (also an excellent game) -- but in my opinion EQ2, with the exception of some of its bland dungeon and armor graphics, is still the superior game. The best way to get new people into it is to get them excited about it ... talk to your friends, make them want to play it.  </blockquote>So if word of mouth is such a good way to get people interested in this game why aren't new people logging in by the score? Could it be that people who play don't talk about it much because the game has "issues"?? Or is it more likely because word of mouth works both ways and there are a lot more people saying negative things about EQ2 than positive....

[tass]

not sure if I posted in this thread or another 1 but i'll give the short version for the title. The reason why there aernt more is simply wow advertises wherever an eyeball can look and an ear can hear. Sony in any form of advertising does not. Whenever im on other games comparing 1 game against another in chat no one has ever heard of eq2. Mainly because everyone plays wow.

[liveja]

Stinkii@Guk wrote: <blockquote>I never said that there was any current dissatisfaction </blockquote><p>No, of course not, because that would have been a statement of fact, & moreover, one you're not capable of defending.</p><p>But claiming you never implied anything is disingenuous at best.</p>

[sayitaintso]

<cite>livejazz wrote:</cite><blockquote>Stinkii@Guk wrote: <blockquote>I never said that there was any current dissatisfaction </blockquote><p>No, of course not, because that would have been a statement of fact, & moreover, one you're not capable of defending.</p><p>But claiming you never implied anything is disingenuous at best.</p></blockquote> Right whatever...read into it whatever fits your agenda....Just as always..

[liveja]

Stinkii@Guk wrote: <blockquote><cite>livejazz wrote:</cite><blockquote>Stinkii@Guk wrote: <blockquote>I never said that there was any current dissatisfaction </blockquote><p>No, of course not, because that would have been a statement of fact, & moreover, one you're not capable of defending.</p><p>But claiming you never implied anything is disingenuous at best.</p></blockquote> Right whatever...read into it whatever fits your agenda....Just as always.. </blockquote><p>"SOE still has to answer to SONY corporations share holders, just any any other division of SONY. If SOE were to lose money they could find themselves absorbed into SONY proper and disbanded...SOE does make money but if one of their products became a finacial liability they could cancel production of it... If I were a SONY shareholder and knew that SOE didn't actively market what is probably their largest online product I would want an explanation...Especially when I saw the potential of the MMO market using Blizzard's WoW as an example of what a well advertised MMO can be....WoW grosses nearly 100 million dollars a month where EQ2 makes about 5 million....That's a HUGE difference..."</p><p>Please don't insult my intelligence by claiming this post of yours, which I've quoted entirely, was not intended to "imply" anything at all. In fact, pretty much all of your florid rhetoric on this subject is quite plainly intended to imply that SOE is, or will soon be, in financial trouble.</p><p>Claiming otherwise would be flatly dishonest. </p>

[EvilMissKitty]

In my opinion the following reasons is why EQ2 is not as popular as it should be: 1. It lacks the "cool" factor of Blizzard.  Blizzard's Warcraft franchise is considered "cool" and mainstream. Moreover, its popularity in Asia is enormeous.  The majority of my friends refuse to play eq2 because of their misguided preception that EQ2 is goofy and not as cool as WOW. 2. Lower system requirements.  This is probably the biggest factor. 3. Marketing , marketing , marketing!  Blizzard does a wonderufl job in marketing all their products. On the other hand, while others have already pointed out, you never seen cut-outs/posters of EQ2 anywhere.  In fact, you have a hard time even finding the games in most stores.  4. Game critics of major websites and gaming magazines appear to hate traditional MMOs, thus seem to irrationally hate EQ2.  However, they simply LOVE WOW and GuldWars (which to me is not really a true MMO).  5. Popularity. The larger pool of players, means more people who tell friends, family, co-workers about the game. Also, people tend to like to play the "popular" games. 6. EQ2's launch was a little bumpy and was not as friendly towards the casual player as it is today. 7. Misperception that its a hardcore game not for casual players.  I have read a lot of incorrect posts all over the internet and have heard friends tell me " I can't play EQ2, its too hard , and its for hardcore players .." This 7. Dancing.  Strangely, I think WOW and GWs dance emotes help advertise the game. Youtube and other social networking sites, always are ful of posts of funny WOW/GW dance videos.

[bleap]

<cite>livejazz wrote:</cite><blockquote>Stinkii@Guk wrote: <blockquote><cite>livejazz wrote:</cite><blockquote>Stinkii@Guk wrote: <blockquote>I never said that there was any current dissatisfaction </blockquote><p>No, of course not, because that would have been a statement of fact, & moreover, one you're not capable of defending.</p><p>But claiming you never implied anything is disingenuous at best.</p></blockquote> Right whatever...read into it whatever fits your agenda....Just as always.. </blockquote><p>"SOE still has to answer to SONY corporations share holders, just any any other division of SONY. If SOE were to lose money they could find themselves absorbed into SONY proper and disbanded...SOE does make money but if one of their products became a finacial liability they could cancel production of it... If I were a SONY shareholder and knew that SOE didn't actively market what is probably their largest online product I would want an explanation...Especially when I saw the potential of the MMO market using Blizzard's WoW as an example of what a well advertised MMO can be....WoW grosses nearly 100 million dollars a month where EQ2 makes about 5 million....That's a HUGE difference..."</p><p>Please don't insult my intelligence by claiming this post of yours, which I've quoted entirely, was not intended to "imply" anything at all. In fact, pretty much all of your florid rhetoric on this subject is quite plainly intended to imply that SOE is, or will soon be, in financial trouble.</p><p>Claiming otherwise would be flatly dishonest. </p></blockquote><span style="font-size: medium; font-family: times new roman,times"><span style="color: #ff0000">I dont see it that way, Stinkii was simply stating facts. I see nothing to imply that he thinks SOE is in trouble of being absorbed into SONY...he was saying what COULD happen if certain conditions were met...You are trying to put words into his mouth...Say what you wish but you shouldn't try to read other's minds, put words into their mouths, or try to further your agenda, whatever that may be. Looking at your other posts to Stinkii it appears you have some sort of trolling vendetta against him, as you follow his posts and have nothing but negative comments for the things that he says...Right or wrong he is doing nothing but posting his opinion...Which is exactly what this board is for...Opinion and discusion...We don't get responses from anyone at SOE on a regular basis...So what else is there to do here...You seem to do nothing but troll and post using 50 cent words to make yourself look better than anyone else.. EQ2 has lost a lot of subscribers and market share due to many of the reasons posted here by several of the posters...SOE merged servers after a year because there wern't enough players to support all teh servers they had....The game was not complete at launch, the entire idea of sub classes went over like a lead ballon and then SOE made some poor choices in attempting to revamp the game...Lots of people got frustrated and left...many never returned...couple that with the lack of advertising and at some level the lack of customer service and SOE has lost upwards of 40% of their customers....yes CUSTOMERS like any other business...players are customers...with the right to take their money and go play something else...that is the answer to the OP question...people left for various reason...many never returned...</span></span>

[liveja]

bleap wrote: <blockquote><p>Looking at your other posts to Stinkii it appears you have some sort of trolling vendetta against him, as you follow his posts and have nothing but negative comments for the things that he says.</p></blockquote><p>I'm quite certain the mods will remove this particular post, & that's fine. I have responded to him as I have, because I consider him to be a paranoid buffoon whose posts attacking SOE have bordered on libelous.</p><p>I'm terribly not sorry if you don't like that stance. I watched people like him libel Blizzard for months on Blizzard's web site. I'm not interested in letting slop like his go unchallenged here.</p><p>Having said that, & in keeping with the thread -- & as I've said many times elsewhere -- I myself am mystified at SOE's apparent lack of interest in aggressively marketing the best MMO currently available. I can only infer from their lack of aggression that both SOE & Sony's shareholders are satisfied with what they're getting out of EQ2.</p><hr />SOE has lost upwards of 40% of their customers <hr /><p>O, yea, BTW: I assume you can prove this claim?</p>

[bleap]

<cite>livejazz wrote:</cite><blockquote>bleap wrote: <blockquote><p>Looking at your other posts to Stinkii it appears you have some sort of trolling vendetta against him, as you follow his posts and have nothing but negative comments for the things that he says.</p></blockquote><p>I'm quite certain the mods will remove this particular post, & that's fine. I have responded to him as I have, because I consider him to be a paranoid buffoon whose posts attacking SOE have bordered on libelous.</p><p>I'm terribly not sorry if you don't like that stance. I watched people like him libel Blizzard for months on Blizzard's web site. I'm not interested in letting slop like his go unchallenged here.</p><p>Having said that, & in keeping with the thread -- & as I've said many times elsewhere -- I myself am mystified at SOE's apparent lack of interest in aggressively marketing the best MMO currently available. I can only infer from their lack of aggression that both SOE & Sony's shareholders are satisfied with what they're getting out of EQ2.</p><hr />SOE has lost upwards of 40% of their customers <hr /><p>O, yea, BTW: I assume you can prove this claim?</p></blockquote>OK Mr Internet lawyer...If you believe voicing someone's opinion is "libelous" so be it, I don't think he has to worry about the internet police coming to take him away...For someone who claims to be against heavy government intrusion you sure seem to be pretty intrusive yourself...How about just leaving him alone...he wasn't singling you out..and yes you COULD chose to let it go...but your inheirent inability to keep your nose out of it and instigate trouble won't let you... See I don't have to prove anything here...I saw an article back around christmas time from an online gamer mag that estimated EQ2 had lost around 40% of it's market share. A drop to 260,000 subscriptions from a total of nearly 400,000...It was actually an article about how players jump from game to game and how they peak at the release of new expansions and they drop off...But I can't find it now, but it doesn't matter..I know what I read and tht's all that matters to ME... Now back on topic, There is a lot of competition for EQ2...and it appears unlike LiveJazz here, the majority of people who play MMOs don't find EQ2 as the best game...Even if in this case I do happen to agree with him, it doesn't matter...SOE has let the majority market share slip through it's fingers...for better or worse it's a forgone conclusion that EQ2 will never compete for that top spot...And it's ashame...because this is the best game on the market...

[liveja]

<cite>bleap wrote:</cite><blockquote>See I don't have to prove anything here </blockquote><p>The last refuge of the non-credible.</p><p>Thanx for playing.</p>

[CoLD MeTaL]

<p>WoW knows that people don't want their 'fun' tied to the availability of 23 other people.</p><p>Getting decent gear in WoW according to "PC Gamer" is solo available (never played it or any other MMO so I don't know personally), in EQ2 it simply isn't.  Group available gear is not generally better than mastercrafted, and a raid depends on finding and maintaining 23 other people.</p><p>While WoW is too cartoony for me from the screenshots i have seen, they certainly know how to please their customers, and SOE could certainly learn a thing or 2.</p><p>This game is set up to 'challenge' the 'top raiding guilds' (I guess), SOE would make more money by losing that 3% of customers to replace it with a lot more normal customers, would increase their bottom line in the end.</p><p>I don't envy 'those people' on my server, they force people to log on every night, and raid to get them gear.</p><p> Raids that 'require' specific classes, doom pick up raids, as someone has said the 'top guilds' figure out the tricks in a week or two, and farm, while pick up raids never go in enough times to even figure out the content without spoillers.</p><p>This game is not 'casual' friendly, and the other one is, which has more subscribers, maybe that is a hint.  Lots of changes to make it better, but the "Raiding is the only way to get decent gear", the more than 4 hours it takes to get to some places, and the freaking plethora of NO-TRADE is a step backwards from your majority of customers.</p>

[Leemeg]

CoLD MeTaL wrote: <blockquote><p>WoW knows that people don't want their 'fun' tied to the availability of 23 other people.</p><p>Getting decent gear in WoW according to "PC Gamer" is solo available (never played it or any other MMO so I don't know personally), in EQ2 it simply isn't.  Group available gear is not generally better than mastercrafted, and a raid depends on finding and maintaining 23 other people.</p><p>While WoW is too cartoony for me from the screenshots i have seen, they certainly know how to please their customers, and SOE could certainly learn a thing or 2.</p><p>This game is set up to 'challenge' the 'top raiding guilds' (I guess), SOE would make more money by losing that 3% of customers to replace it with a lot more normal customers, would increase their bottom line in the end.</p><p>I don't envy 'those people' on my server, they force people to log on every night, and raid to get them gear.</p><p> Raids that 'require' specific classes, doom pick up raids, as someone has said the 'top guilds' figure out the tricks in a week or two, and farm, while pick up raids never go in enough times to even figure out the content without spoillers.</p><p>This game is not 'casual' friendly, and the other one is, which has more subscribers, maybe that is a hint.  Lots of changes to make it better, but the "Raiding is the only way to get decent gear", the more than 4 hours it takes to get to some places, and the freaking plethora of NO-TRADE is a step backwards from your majority of customers.</p></blockquote>Think you got it mixed up. When you reach max level in WoW, you got pretty much only 2 choices. 1) Raid (was 40 man raids, now its down to 25), or 2) Start a new alt. Other thing is that WoW is alot more depended on gear than here, and it's big difference between raided gear and lower end gear. What I find in EQ2 is that there is many option for both soloers, small groups, full groups and raids, even at 70. Although the raided gear here is better than group drops, the difference isn't that big.

[Xynok]

Incoming

[Xynok]

CoLD MeTaL wrote: <blockquote><p>WoW knows that people don't want their 'fun' tied to the availability of 23 other people.</p><p><b>Instead, WoW ties your fun to to the availability of 39 other people. The best gear in that game requires 40 player raiding.  In fact, people are so sick of this, the new expansion had mainly 20 or less player raiding, but the best stuff still requires 40 player raids.  It is absolute horse-filth.</b></p><p>Getting decent gear in WoW according to "PC Gamer" is solo available (never played it or any other MMO so I don't know personally), in EQ2 it simply isn't.  Group available gear is not generally better than mastercrafted, and a raid depends on finding and maintaining 23 other people.</p><p><b>You exaggerate to make a point, but you can get decent gear solo in both games. The Tier 0 stuff in WoW requires 1-2 full groups running the same instances over and over again (to the tune of 20+ times each).  Tier 0 stuff is absolute garbage compared to raid gear.  With the level increase to 70, I can't imagine how craptacular the gear acquired pre-Molten Core is now.  Suffice to say, the best gear in both games comes from raiding.</b></p><p>While WoW is too cartoony for me from the screenshots i have seen, they certainly know how to please their customers, and SOE could certainly learn a thing or 2.</p><p><b>I'm clearly biased, I'll make no claim otherwise, but Blizzard couldn't get me back if they offered a free life-time membership to WoW.  You seem to be focused on graphics here, so I will say the system requirements for EQ2 are the single biggest factor attributing to its low population; indeed, it is my biggest criticism of the game.  WoW, comparatively, plays on an Atari2600; if that sounds cool to you, so be it.  That said, it IS the reason for it's popularity.</b></p><p>This game is set up to 'challenge' the 'top raiding guilds' (I guess), SOE would make more money by losing that 3% of customers to replace it with a lot more normal customers, would increase their bottom line in the end.</p><p><b>I hate to keep repeating myself, but this is exactly what WoW does.  In fact, you are *expected* to join a large raiding guild in WoW to advance; I know for a fact my casual guild in EQ2 does casual raid stuff all the time.  Suffice to say both games require hardcore raiding guilds to get the best gear.</b></p><p>I don't envy 'those people' on my server, they force people to log on every night, and raid to get them gear.</p><p> Raids that 'require' specific classes, doom pick up raids, as someone has said the 'top guilds' figure out the tricks in a week or two, and farm, while pick up raids never go in enough times to even figure out the content without spoillers.</p><p><b>Go to WoW, hit the level cap (will take an experienced MMO player less than 2 months of casual play, guranteed by the way), and tell me how it is any different?  I'd argue it's far worse for many reasons.</b></p><p>This game is not 'casual' friendly, and the other one is, which has more subscribers, maybe that is a hint.  Lots of changes to make it better, but the "Raiding is the only way to get decent gear", the more than 4 hours it takes to get to some places, and the freaking plethora of NO-TRADE is a step backwards from your majority of customers.</p><p><b>Both games are casual friendly in the sense that a person can go from 1 to level-cap completely solo.  Once you hit that cap in WoW, you better be in a solid guild, or you *will* waste countless hours in PuGs and looking for PuGs, just to get the Tier 0 stuff that allows you to start on REAL gear.  This is simply not the case in EQ2, as there is still all kinds of stuff to do, primarily single group content and casual raiding.  Both games require full-on raiding to get the best stuff.</b></p></blockquote><p>The bottom line is play what you enjoy, but make no mistake: WoW is the poster child for all the problems you have with MMOs based on this post.  EQ2 simply has a far better balance of content, is a lot more in-depth in many facets, and character progression is FAR less linear (not to mention way more challenging imo).</p><p>I'll let you off the hook since you do mention you haven't actually played WoW, but let me tell you how much you would HATE that game based on your comments here -- it is infintely worse there on so many levels. </p>

[thelo]

I think the real question we should be asking is do we really WANT more players?   WoW has 8 million subscribers because its marketed everywhere,  its easy, and its made to apeal to a much wider demographic of players. A side effect of having 8 million players in an mmo is that the community turns into absolute CRAP. Spend 10 minutes in WoW and you'll see what i mean.    WoW can keep it 8 million subscribers for all I care,  I like EQ2 just the way it is.

[Lleinen]

CoLD MeTaL wrote: <blockquote><p>This game is set up to 'challenge' the 'top raiding guilds' (I guess), SOE would make more money by losing that <b>3% of customers</b> to replace it with a lot more normal customers, would increase their bottom line in the end.</p><p>I don't envy 'those people' on my server, they force people to log on every night, and raid to get them gear.</p><p> Raids that 'require' specific classes, doom pick up raids, as someone has said the 'top guilds' figure out the tricks in a week or two, and farm, while pick up raids never go in enough times to even figure out the content without spoillers.</p><p>This game is not 'casual' friendly, and the other one is, which has more subscribers, maybe that is a hint.  Lots of changes to make it better, but the "Raiding is the only way to get decent gear", the more than 4 hours it takes to get to some places, and the freaking plethora of NO-TRADE is a step backwards from your majority of customers.</p></blockquote><p> PLEASE PLEASE prove to me that only 3% of customers are raiders...this assumption angers me more than anything, I always hear 3% and 10% and its bull!!! Raiding is the lifeblood of the EQ universe.  Getting large groups of people to tackle gods and giant dragons!!  Hell even 1x raid (nizara) or x2 or x4 raiders.  Raiders easily make up 30-40% of the playerbase in my OPINION.  Can I prove it? No, but if need be I could easily prove that raiders are MUCH MORE than 10% of the population (well not easily, but its doable).  I mean I know of around 7 raid guilds on my server, hardcore and casual alike, thats at LEAST around 200 people already on one server, and I can guarantee that that # is bigger than 200.</p><p>This game is VERY casual friendly.  My guild is a casual raiding guild.  I dont understand where this idea that raid guilds are evil and mean.  Some of the meanest people I've met are people NOT in guilds and nicest I have ever met are in mine!!  You DONT need to be hardcore to get the best gear in the game...all you gotta do is...get this..."YOUR BEST!!!"  omg I know, but 18-20 people working well together in a casual setting can easily clear EH in a given amount of time if they put their minds to it. I only raid 3 days a week and have already cleared all instances...please, go away you raid nay sayers, all it does is [Removed for Content] me off to hear this DRIBBLE about raiders ruining EQ2, raiding is easily THE BEST part of the game and THE FUNNEST.  Whats better than running with your friends in your guild, whether hardcore or not, and beating a big mob for fun. I dont raid for loot, I raid because its fun, maybe you dont? Then I dont see what the hell your doing playing EQ2 because anything non-raiding is boring as hell right now (hell, even raiding is boring now beacuse theres not enough).  Dont like the bash? Well stop bashing the raiders!! (not you specifically, but non raiders in general, just freaking stop!!!)</p>