Monk or Bruiser?

[Kaleyen]

Ok, after 100AA's and in gear that drops from KoS raid zones which one would do the most DPS overall? I currently have a Monk I haven't played since KoS was released and I'm looking to pick him back up, level him up to 70 and do some light raiding.  I have no real ties to either class and my CA's aren't at Adept III or higher so switching really isn't a big hassle. And I'm not talking about perfect group setups etc, just overall.

[Rrawl]

<p>Go Bruiser.</p><p>Get Drag.</p>

[Bewts]

Roll a Brigand - thats what most raid guilds tell my unguilded level 70 monk nowadays

[Kaleyen]

<cite>Bewts wrote:</cite><blockquote>Roll a Brigand - thats what most raid guilds tell my unguilded level 70 monk nowadays</blockquote>Why would I roll a brig when I already have a T7 monk?  And besides I raid with my Paladin/Ranger, just want to get back into the swing of things on the Monker from time to time.  But my primary roll would be DPS and I don't know nada bout Brawler AA's, KoS and EoF that might increase the DPS of either Brawler.  Keep in mind I stopped playing the Monk when KoS came out (the start of all this AA business) and rolled up a Ranger then the Pally.

[Bewts]

<p>It was sarcasim based off of the popularity of Monks in raids.</p>

[Kota]

yeah bud, if you try real hard you might keep up with some sleepy scouts on dps.  if you insist on making a brawler for dps i'm not sure it would matter which one.  i'd be sure to get altruism tho, if you want to feel useful on a raid lvl. i'm not sure what kind of dps you'll get from baton flurry.  might be decent with the reuse timer redux you get from agi line.  i didn't have a baton at the time i was playing with respecs.

[Kaleyen]

<cite>Bewts wrote:</cite><blockquote>Roll a Brigand - thats what most raid guilds tell my unguilded level 70 monk nowadays</blockquote>Ahh, I rarely raid with a monk, raid only with Bruisers.  Have only 1 monk in my guild, and because of RL things like work schedules he doesn't raid with us.

[Junaru]

Liluk@Venekor wrote: <blockquote><cite>Bewts wrote:</cite><blockquote>Roll a Brigand - thats what most raid guilds tell my unguilded level 70 monk nowadays</blockquote>Ahh, I rarely raid with a monk, raid only with Bruisers.  Have only 1 monk in my guild, and because of RL things like work schedules he doesn't raid with us. </blockquote> That there says it all then. While neither bring much to a raid it better to have a Monk and Brawler then to of the same IMHO. Both do around the same damage on raids given the same gear and group make up so it's just a matter or preference at this point.

[Bewts]

<cite>Kota wrote:</cite><blockquote>yeah bud, if you try real hard you might keep up with some sleepy scouts on dps.  if you insist on making a brawler for dps i'm not sure it would matter which one.  i'd be sure to get altruism tho, if you want to feel useful on a raid lvl. i'm not sure what kind of dps you'll get from baton flurry.  might be decent with the reuse timer redux you get from agi line.  i didn't have a baton at the time i was playing with respecs. </blockquote><p> Personally, I don't enjoy the idea of wasting all those AA on altruism just so some wizard can waste manaburn when the mob is at 50% because they know they have altruism on them.  If a monk is going to be brought along just to use manaburn, just give the wizard a repair kit.  It would have the same effect.</p><p>Go for a DPS build and stick with it.  IF you only parse 800 zonewide, it sure beats parsing 600 zonewide and the wizard saving the money in repairs.   Again that's me.  I don't want to put AF on the wizard with altruism (which is essentially what happens when you [Removed for Content] your AA's and DPS like that) and just AFK the whole raid.</p>

[Kota]

agi line isn't that bad on dps.  baton flurry is a couple extra whacks, and the spell timer adjustments help. you can keep your reuse timers reduced 20% indeffinitely. well, as long as you have something to whack. works well if you adjusted your timers thru monk aa tree.  i played with it a bit yesterday.  last time i checked altruism could be put on the mt.  i would never put it on a squishy.

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<p>Reuse Timers? Baton Flurry reduces your <i>recovery</i> timers. You know.. that 0.5s time between attacks.</p><p>My god, if it were reuse timers, I'd be all over that. It'd actually be doing something noticeable at that point.</p>

[Ganeden]

Bruisers will do more dps. That seems to answer your question.

[Rrawl]

<cite>Ganeden wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bruisers will do more dps. That seems to answer your question.</blockquote><p> In my experience Bruisers do more up front burst damage, but monks do more damage in a longer, drawn out fight. (Like most raid named mobs). Your statement is inaccurate. However, overall the differences are fairly marginal, and if we're just talking about raw dps, we all know there are better classes to play.</p><p>I'd still go Bruiser Kulil, and get drag... It's a Bruiser AA that will actually give you something useful to use and stand out with a bit on raids.</p>

[Savanja]

Such monk hate.  The answer to your question is, bruisers tend to do more DPS when decked out properly.  Mileage may vary, but overall that seems to be how it works out.

[Ganeden]

<cite>Rrawl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ganeden wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bruisers will do more dps. That seems to answer your question.</blockquote><p> In my experience Bruisers do more up front burst damage, but monks do more damage in a longer, drawn out fight. (Like most raid named mobs). Your statement is inaccurate. However, overall the differences are fairly marginal, and if we're just talking about raw dps, we all know there are better classes to play.</p><p>I'd still go Bruiser Kulil, and get drag... It's a Bruiser AA that will actually give you something useful to use and stand out with a bit on raids.</p></blockquote><p>I wouldn't say my statement is inaccurate, it's just a matter of opinion. If a monk/bruiser have equal buffs/equipment/spell quality the bruiser will barely edge them out in all situations. Not by much, and most zone wide parses bruisers are only like 50dps ahead or so, if both players are skilled. </p>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<p>In short, 20s or less fights... Bruisers will blow the parse away. That's cuz timers aren't being taken into account.</p><p>Otherwise, the damage from CA's are <b>exactly the same</b> over time... Monks just have to cast theirs twice as often (same overall power too... half the power, but twice the cast rate).</p><p> So on longer boss fights, equally played/geared toons will end up being overall equal. Any disparities can be chalked up to randomness. Sample an infinite set and you'll end up getting closer and closer to an equal parse.</p><p> Zonewide parses favour Bruiser because you'll run into fights where you spend 15-20s killing a mob and the Bruiser gets to burn all his big abilities.. and then have them back up for the next fight anyways cuz of down time. In a way, it is still an edge... but not an overly large one. And it's not like we are talking about the most sought after subclass anyways on raids, either way. I'd pick my class between Monk and Bruiser based on personal preference of style... look and feel stuff. Monks get more "help others" feel, while Bruisers have more "help themselves" feel... their heals really show that there.</p><p>Personally.. I'd rather be in dreary Freeport than "approved by Disney" Qeynos, or "rainbows make me cry" Kelethin... /puke. Maybe Neriak will be a cool place to check out when it arrives...</p>

[Ardornon]

<p>First off, I didn't read every post in this thread. Secondly, my main is a 70 Monk, 100AA, full fabled (in fact several full suits and then some) and full masters. I'm in a raid guild, one of the top on our server right now. I've tanked every T7 one group zone in the game, including Nizara several times. I've also tanked almost every T7 raid zone in the game, even tanking partly some of the named encounters in Emerald Halls and Mistmoore Inner Sanctum.</p><p>With that all being said so everyone knows I know what I'm talking about with this class in general, I agree that the brawler class in general needs alteration.</p><p>In terms of soloing, brawlers are alright. If I try to solo a blue con mob in EoF, half the time I won't even win because of the sheer number of hit points they have. I can generally solo many even con ^^^'s in KoS though. I've seen first hand Conjurors (I have a 70 Conjuror alt myself), Necromancers, Illusionists, Brigands, many of the healers, the list goes on- solo a lot better than my Monk can. I'm not worried about soloing though, I give a crap about that in comparison to the major issue.</p><p>Grouping isn't a big deal. Brawlers need better equipment to stay on the same page as a plate tank does but once you begin to get that fabled gear and those adornments and rise inside the 4,000 mitigation point on raids, the gap closes quite fast. The thing is though, holy trinity. To anyone who doesn't know about the holy trinity concept, it's a concept invented in past mmorpg's such as Everquest in which it pertained to the pristine three classes you needed in which there was no other class that could take their place as well as that class. Consider it like the three "parent" classes in which every other class is simply a form of hybrid or branch-off from that class. In Everquest's example this was the Warrior, the Cleric, and the Enchanter.</p><p>In Everquest II the holy trinity simply means that the Guardian is the best tank, and there are so many damage specific classes out there that I don't even really understand why brawlers still exist in EQII. The hybrid concept fails in every mmorpg, we've seen this from Everquest and it carries on to every mmorpg that I can remember. Hybrids have taken shape in these games over the past 8 or so years, development's noticed that being a "jack of all trades" simply means you can do a little bit of everything- half [Removed for Content], and can do nothing at all as well as somebody else. This simply means that if you can do it, there's another class that does it better. If I want to run an instance and I want it to go fast and effective, I'm not going to grab 6 Templar's. I'm not going to grab 3 Berserkers, 2 Paladins and a Bruiser either. I'm going to attempt to put together as close of a "holy trinity" as I can. I'm going to find the most suitable tank available, if that means I can get a Guardian, I'll get the Guardian. If all I can find at the time is a Shadow Knight, that will work just fine. Of course I'm taking into consideration that the player behind the class is of equal mentality and skill and both characters have the same kind of equipment. If I'm going to do Unrest and I want to make it as fast as possible and have it run smooth and I get tells when asking the damage classes to join from a Monk and a Ranger, or a Monk and a Brigand, or a Monk and a Wizard, or a Monk and a Conjuror, or a Monk and (insert any other damage class here), the Monk is going to be left behind.</p><p>This isn't the major issue though, not at all. Realistically, group content in this game is so superficial and simplistic for me that if you give me 5 players who are even mildly competent and have at least even level Legendary gear, chances are the run will go smooth even if I have a Monk tanking, a Bruiser doing damage, a Fury healing, and a Troubadour helping on the damage. But when we get into raid context it's a completely different ball game.</p><p>Raids and raid guilds in general can't generally afford this kind of thinking. Can a Monk tank Woushi? Well I've never done it, but I bet a Monk "could" do it. No raid guild wants a Monk to tank Woushi though. No raid guild wants a Monk to damage on their raid either. Like I once was told by a guild leader of a guild I once applied to a long time ago, "ya you can put out pretty good dps but I can get a [Removed for Content] Brigand who can put out that much dps, there's really no room for you here"... And THAT my friends is the issue. So what's the fix? Is it more damage? Is it better tanking ability? More hate generation? Actually I don't think that's going to fix anything. All that's going to do is make brawlers "too" good, or make other classes (that holy trinity again) less useful compared to the brawler that can now match their damage and at the same time, out tank them.</p><p>There are four focal points of an mmorpg and that's it. There's mitigation of damage, healing of damage, dealing of damage, and support. How many classes that can be made off those four major principles depends on how many skills are at your disposal as a player and the npc's and monsters in the game. The only "fix" as I see it is support. In The World of Warcraft for example, the Paladin is a "hybrid" that can deal some damage, can heal quite effectively, and can tank effectively in many circumstances. They aren't the best damage dealers by a long shot, Warriors can out tank them quite easily, and they won't make the best healers. The thing is, Paladins in The World of Warcraft get special abilities that are detrimental to the success of a raid force. Detrimental factors that make them desired in that content.</p><p>Monks and Bruisers haven't this any longer. We can feign death but when we do Emerald Halls, our Guardian pulls. We don't get adds and under the instances that we do get an extra mob, we can take them both. In MIS the mobs ignore feign death and cry for help and activate the gargoyles even if you feign, it's a scripted event either way. Feign death is useful in case of a wipe, but you can feign death with tinkering, Shadow Knights can feign death, Necromancers can feign death, it just isn't class specific enough to make it anything but a very small "bonus".</p><p>The only thing that the brawler classes really give to the raid force is their class specific group buffs. DPS for Bruisers and Haste for Monks. Buffs that are so superficially small that it's more effective to just put one Swashbuckler, Brigand, Ranger, Wizard (etc.) in that group because the damage per second of those classes will not only beat the brawler, but will beat the brawler AND the extra added damage that brawler's group buff provides that group.</p><p>Again, holy trinity concept.</p><p>To sum up this long post: Soloing isn't a major issue. Grouping is too simple to matter. Raiding is the major problem. Every other archetype in Everquest II can provide something so specifically wanted that any raid force would want them on their raids. Brawlers at this point in time have little to no nitch. If you're a Monk or a Bruiser and you're out damaging one of the specific damage casters or scouts, then you've just met a lazy/incompetent caster/scout.</p><p>It's pretty much that simple, and that's the problem.</p><p>After 3 years of being a Monk I'm finally calling it quits. I've decided to re-roll a healer instead. I've come to post all this because after spending 3 years on and off as a Monk, I look back and wonder why I gave it so much effort, hoping for the best. It's a real shame that the same proprietors of Everquest had taken such a diverse and interesting class and pretty much butchered it into a worthless hybrid. At least in Everquest Monks could make top dps, plus they pulled like no other.</p><p>With the encounter system of Everquest II, pulling is just a silly concept, my Conjuror can single pull any encounter in the game, and with the damage per second of each respective class, I've seen Berserkers/Shadow Knights out parse me with the right group setup and AA lines and believe me, I'm no [Removed for Content].</p>

[Controlor]

brawlers have some use in raids....... popping traps...