Do you have what it takes to maximise DPS ?

[Tri]

Maxing out DPS, do you have what it takes? I don't, or at least for only half an hour. You will be casting 2 times Eli's and clara every 10 seconds, Add in steal essence 1 sec cast , dancing blade 0.5 sec, sandra 0.5 sec yep you get 8.5 seconds of casting in theory every 10 secs Chaining these isn't even possible given each ability has a 0.5 recovery time. So in the end you need 11.5 seconds every 10 seconds then comes Alin's with it's 12 sec recast and 2.5 sec casting, perfect shrill on a 15 sec recast and noble blade on a 20 sec recast. Of course if, like most troubs, you went for WIS line and the personal DPS line in EoF the boost to casting times makes the chaining possible,  but you get an idea of what you must be doing to achieve sub par dps ; Non stop clicking ! try it, you'll see you always have something to do. It's not as if these attacks had extra effects added to them, as if they brought anything else besides the DPS, So i know i'm not wrong when i say it is not balanced, spamming skills non stop to reach 1K damage is nowhere near being a good class design. And AAs sholdn't be here to repair the flaws of class design, even more when there is no added fun ( unlike CAs for healers ) I understand those who want more dps, but that is only one solution. Adding debuffs to the attacks is another one, or a reactive effect on the group for example when a CA / Spell is used by adding a new buff. ( so troubs can get 14 concentration needing buffs... ) Just know that trying to play the class to it's full potential is not fun on the long term, doing this for hours on a raid is something i cannot keep without breaks of slacking pretty often.

[Antryg Mistrose]

On raids?  All you need to do to guarantee yourself a place is: <ul><li>Pick the correct 5/11 buffs to run</li><li>Maintain a few debuffs, and hist Jesters and PotM now and then. </li><li>Stay alive - ie joust/bladedance </li></ul>Thats it - very cruisy Compare that to non a buffbot class - say Illusionist - To maximise DPS you need to cast non-stop (and you are unlike Troubadors expected to parse highly).  Much more danger of RSI / Carpal Tunnel ....     But none of nodding off. LU34 comes and goes - no change at all for bards, so the wonderful improvements we had to autoattack damage (for a class that is dazed 30sec of most fights), and the slight improvements to a couple of spells, is it.  Enjoy !

[Rufio]

<p>So very true, I have an assassin if I want to do burst dps or even some raid dps. I made my troub because there aren`t enough of them around because many ppl who make them think "oh it`s a scout, it must be a DPS god because it can dual weild like the brigand, swash, assassin etc who can all put out nice dmg". The fact over the matter is we are and always will be a jack of all trades utility buff support type architecture toon. Don`t like it, don`t have to play it, re-roll an assassin and have fun burning through stuff in under a minute, but if like me, you made a troub to support your team in full knowledge that the class is not a tank, not a healer and not dps but rather a hybrid class that switches songs depending on the groups structure, then I welcome you to our class and hope you continue to enjoy playing him in the knowledge that the days the troub did DPS are back before LU13, I know I have been here since before then.</p><p>A little nostalgia for those troubs still in existence from those days after the nerf [Removed for Content] our class got, I remember our tank was in party running to everfrost, we were waiting on him and I said I would tank. The tank laughed and said you guys will wipe, and so stacking all my sta/str buffs and def, cause they stacked back then. I proceeded to tank with mit over 65% and avoidance around the same and more health than the mt had. I did a ton of dmg because of the str stacking and my avoidance was so high my auto attack procs and just general attacks weren`t interrupted as much or stopped for that matter. If you weren`t there in those day it is kinda hard to describe the feeling of stacking four of the same buffs and ppl would look at their stats and just go [Removed for Content] I love you troub. </p><p>I guess the developers caught on that we were getting it too good, too much sunshine, so they got the LU13 size to start off with then finished the job with other numerous bats of equally sized proportions.</p><p>My point is, change isn`t always good but you roll with the punches that the devs give you, love your class, stop whining about why you can`t heal like a templar, tank like a guardian, dps like an assassin and just play your class or reroll.</p><p>P.S. I love my troub, I deleted him once but I have come back and I`ll be damned if Sony is going to ruin my fun. Bing on the bat biatches I can take some more hits.</p>

[Pogopuschel]

Rufio@Everfrost wrote: <blockquote><p>My point is, change isn`t always good but you roll with the punches that the devs give you, love your class, stop whining about why you can`t heal like a templar, tank like a guardian, dps like an assassin and just play your class or reroll.</p></blockquote> If you like eating [I cannot control my vocabulary], I guess that's fine. I prefer a steak. But even more so: Welcome to the club of people that missed the point. I'll sum up the point of the "whiners" once more: Lack of an active role ==> Request for anything to compensate. And there's a variety of ideas & opinions on that: - More things like JC & PotM - more dps - ... Note that the club of "whiners" is mainly level 70 raiders/instancers, whereas the people that are jolly happy are either mid-level PvE or PvP players. I wonder why that is. As long as you live you cannot suck as a bard. So people whine/are bitter? Now I wonder why, let's see, oh right: Giving comprehensive feedback when asked to, and getting jack [I cannot control my vocabulary] back for it maybe isn't the best way to put a smile on people's faces.

[Galim]

<p>Im not complaining.  Raid Dps is good (650-850 depending on Mob) - over 1k dps on solo mobs.  Mages love me.  Im in demand. </p><p>Study the parse.  Around 20-25% of the damage summoners do in group is from troub procs.  about 12% for sorcerers and 16% for Chanters.  That doesnt include the DKTM, Jesters and debuff effects(particularly the 2.6k mental debuff on mob for the chanters).</p><p> I reckon we got it good.  But its been said before - if you dont like it...roll another.</p>

[Pogopuschel]

<cite>Galimir wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Im not complaining.  Raid Dps is good (650-850 depending on Mob) - over 1k dps on solo mobs.  Mages love me.  Im in demand. </p><p>Study the parse.  Around 20-25% of the damage summoners do in group is from troub procs.  about 12% for sorcerers and 16% for Chanters.  That doesnt include the DKTM, Jesters and debuff effects(particularly the 2.6k mental debuff on mob for the chanters).</p><p> I reckon we got it good.  But its been said before - if you dont like it...roll another. </p></blockquote>Once more (from other threads): Noone says Troubs don't bring a lot to the raid/group. Noone. Matter of the fact is still: It's 85% passive, you do not need a player controlling that char. There's a load of things you can do to make it more interesting. Just off the top of my head: Make bards actually play their buffs/songs. Give them instruments, make them interact to make a song better/worse, stuff like that. If you really look at it, you'll notice that the active role of a bard's time is 10% active buffs (JC/PotM) and 90% "wasted" on the attempt to do as much damage as possible - because there's not much else to do. And the amount of damage we do will really not cut it. If we stay alive, we're doing ok even if we do 0 personal dps Give us the ability to screw up - make it interesting. That's the request <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[SpiralDown]

Uyaem@Runnyeye wrote: <blockquote><cite>Galimir wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Im not complaining.  Raid Dps is good (650-850 depending on Mob) - over 1k dps on solo mobs.  Mages love me.  Im in demand. </p><p>Study the parse.  Around 20-25% of the damage summoners do in group is from troub procs.  about 12% for sorcerers and 16% for Chanters.  That doesnt include the DKTM, Jesters and debuff effects(particularly the 2.6k mental debuff on mob for the chanters).</p><p> I reckon we got it good.  But its been said before - if you dont like it...roll another. </p></blockquote>Once more (from other threads): Noone says Troubs don't bring a lot to the raid/group. Noone. Matter of the fact is still: It's 85% passive, you do not need a player controlling that char. There's a load of things you can do to make it more interesting. Just off the top of my head: Make bards actually play their buffs/songs. Give them instruments, make them interact to make a song better/worse, stuff like that. If you really look at it, you'll notice that the active role of a bard's time is 10% active buffs (JC/PotM) and 90% "wasted" on the attempt to do as much damage as possible - because there's not much else to do. And the amount of damage we do will really not cut it. If we stay alive, we're doing ok even if we do 0 personal dps Give us the ability to screw up - make it interesting. That's the request <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote><p>I think you are wasting your time if 90% of it is spent on dps.  The majority of the time I spend is on maintaining debuffs.  Debuffing is the main active role of troubs, then temp buffs (mostly cause we have only two, maybe 3 if you include bladedance), then dps and you can also throw in using interupts, which can be helpful.  If you aren't focusing on keeping up your debuffs up, you're hurting overall raid dps, imo.</p><p>Also, on a note about our mental debuff, it helps more than us and the enchanters.  Our spell procs are mental and debuffing it can help everyone in your group's dps <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  </p>

[Pogopuschel]

So we've got Zander's and Clara's as debuffs that affect raid dps. Rest is part of our pesonal dps (maintaining Guviena's, Dancing Blade, ...) Big debuffing classes are Brig, Swash, Defiler in my opinion. Of course you are right, we should maintain those and I do. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  But it's hardly taking a lot of time - rather a lot of power (for the offense debuffs we have, Demoralizing Processional and Discante). Throw them up in the beginning - trash won't live long enough to warrant/require a recast. Then again you can argue: What is Dancing Blade? Dps with a debuff on the side, or a debuff with dps on the side? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[SpiralDown]

Uyaem@Runnyeye wrote: <blockquote>So we've got Zander's and Clara's as debuffs that affect raid dps. Rest is part of our pesonal dps (maintaining Guviena's, Dancing Blade, ...) Big debuffing classes are Brig, Swash, Defiler in my opinion. Of course you are right, we should maintain those and I do. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  But it's hardly taking a lot of time - rather a lot of power (for the offense debuffs we have, Demoralizing Processional and Discante). Throw them up in the beginning - trash won't live long enough to warrant/require a recast. Then again you can argue: What is Dancing Blade? Dps with a debuff on the side, or a debuff with dps on the side? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote><p>Good point, are the CAs like Dancing Blade dps with debuff thrown in or debuff with dps thrown in?  hehe.  And yeah, the debuffs aren't totally about raising dps and some are defensive.  They are something that should be used and troubs shouldn't get the impression that its ok to do nothing on a raid or that their low dps makes them worthless.</p><p>Are they enough to warrant our dps? Probably not, but they are still there and pretty good.  Debuffing an entire encounter by about 1000 of all resists and one by an additional 700 almost the entire fight is good though. </p><p>I think though, most will be happier with their troub if they don't focus on their own dps and look to what else the class does (in an active sense).  This is not to say we should be happy with what we have, the class needs help, but looking to dps isn't the place to ask for it.</p>

[Tri]

The debuffs are always up, even if it means slowing the already crappy dps. I have to disagree with the roll with it or roll another class argument. Even more given how classes keep changing in mmos. I want to be a bard, but not the kind that  mourns the dead. I want to sing about how arthur was stoopid enough to think the moanings behind the curtains were ghosts. Yet i see flaws and feel i should point them out, even more now that those who used to do it gave up ; mainly because of the unexistent feedback on these boards. And to those saying the dps is fine given that troubs are a support class, i'm saying it's not fine given what must be done to reach what is now healer dps.

[SpiralDown]

<cite>Triag wrote:</cite><blockquote>The debuffs are always up, even if it means slowing the already crappy dps. I have to disagree with the roll with it or roll another class argument. Even more given how classes keep changing in mmos. I want to be a bard, but not the kind that  mourns the dead. I want to sing about how arthur was stoopid enough to think the moanings behind the curtains were ghosts. Yet i see flaws and feel i should point them out, even more now that those who used to do it gave up ; mainly because of the unexistent feedback on these boards. And to those saying the dps is fine given that troubs are a support class, i'm saying it's not fine given what must be done to reach what is now healer dps. </blockquote><p> I agree with all you say.... and actually given the AA, and even equipement, choices of other classes I think there should be a way to go either way.  Having AAs to either increasing dps (significantly) or going the route of support.  </p><p>I would rather have more in the way of buffs, debuffs, and other utility rather than having more dps, that way seperating bards from other classes.  Increasing dps would be of secondary to me, but that's just me.  At the moment however, our utility does not warrant our low dps.  Yes, we are support and support shouldn't be able to do as much, but we need a lot more of something to even things out.  Troubs shouldn't be content with things as they are.</p>

[spawn4]

given that most scouts/mages can reliably hit 2k.. it is not unreasonable that troubs/Dirges be able to hit a consisstant 1k dps I thnk I can do it...i just need to get the right CA order. Our MT Dirge can hit 800-1k every time....where i jump around between 400 and 800.....I know it's mostly recast and CA order that's killin me gotta figure it out....and CA order hints? also.....was having a chat on Vent about Con slots...someone made a great point... personal buffs should be con free. it would help us a fair bit....even though it's only 1 con....

[Rufio]

Having personal buffs not take up con slots would be just great, I think it would help add that last buff you always have to leave out because of the lack of slots.

[SpiralDown]

The self buff helps sooo much.  I got to use it, cause of the group make up of the raid, and I hit 1200+ several times and 800+ was alot easier to get to.  Before I didn't care one way or the other really, but now I'm leaning in favor of the no con slot <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Spider]

<p>so wait your complaining that one has to click a lto of skills in the right order to maximise dps ???</p><p>um wow you must not play any dps classes because tahts what ALL dps calss have to do to Maximise dps </p>

[ted]

<p>Obviously people who are posting here that disagree troubs are a broken class than you should wake up. Its so broken that people who do 1k+ dps gets it mainly from procs. It doesnt matter how much i change my cast order occasionaly i will proc up to 1.5k+ my max has been 1.8k since EoF expansion.</p><p>Lets look at some problems. For one self buff what use is it in a raid? oh DPS? uh yeah you get that extra 100 dps at the extend of others losing 200 woot awsome! (oh wait it takes a consentration sweet other scouts... nope)</p><p> Debuffs? what debuffs Dirge debuff > owns Troub, debuffs, why constantly keep up 4 debuffs when THEY DONT STACK! Doh hey that leaves us two green debuffs wow! thats so sweet! and two red ones awsome thanks.</p><p>lets talk about our max hit oh yes thats right sinisters strike awsome so every 2 mins in a zone i can use it on 5 mobs in the zone besides EH woot thanks! (uh can we get an actual hit maybe)</p><p>extra damage to melee where? my Rigid Bow does more dps than my melee still thanks! (maybe if they put some DW's in the game oh yeah the two they did put in wish it would drop, for that matter my class armor where is it? Brell and Rumbler drops the 2 best DW's and Grinning Dirk of Horror is 3rd woot! awsome!</p><p>hold on we arent done... JC woot thats nice, sept wait it sucks! one person for 30 seconds (can we not change it to a group with a recast of 2 mins, yeah that would help it helped with PoTM! Not going to happen they havent even made group hearts yet.</p><p>So whats our roll as a troub buff bot 100% without dehate woot ur useless.... so roll another class why should i when they cant even fix assasins or paladins or templars, but they will make an expansion first and fix whats not broken first and than break it. Our debuff line from EoF AA's are u kidding me? is this the best line u offer, wait no the dps they took from us they give a 1% of it back from these AA's thanks again. It completely lacks a roll there are mainly 1 debuff i will keep up Kian's bah woot thats nice. and our others I would rather save for an HO because it adds a 100 dps vs 30 dps keeping them up constant and thats at most but hey ur a caster right you got your JC and PoTM, dehate, and aria why should it matter if the class isnt fun to play heck we struggle for 1k dps when a wizard cast one spell they are already on top. oh wait thats not all, its even worse when tanks out dps a scout/mage hybrid woot! there is no one that plays a troub that doesnt know what i am talking about! and why complain? well duh where did all the troubs go; oh thats right to other classes server wide there are maybe maybe 4 lvl 70 bards on my server and 1 that raids everyday (yeap i am the one). (now isnt that an issue) yes troubs make the mage group and shafted everywhere else sept to keep the casters happy.</p><p>So you bring up PvP, lets talk about that; lets gear every class towards PvP the 1% that plays great. now i have a troub that fights people pretty well in duels sweet i think thats 100% fair to the class (WOW!) think this game should gear every class towards PvP DUH they did and look how big a flop that is so lets not listen to the complaints try to ignore the people while the game dies slower and slower; remember its not about customer support its what the 1% feel is right and not the 99% that play the class saying hey fix us. Hey we got vanguard atleast let me jump right over to see how dead the game is! I think its ignorant to say there is no need for improvement! there is a story book of them!</p><p>That is my 2cp so those who disagree can eat a big one and stop trying to lie about the class it stinks! (when can i go back to twisting songs atleast than i felt useful).</p>

[Pogopuschel]

Funny, a couple of months back you posted "<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=15&topic_id=194649��" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">bad dps huh wow u must be one sorry troub consider i parse around a 1000 ever t7 fight, its all in how u play the class...</a> and "<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=195&topic_id=194420��" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">I parse high 1000s each fight almost fully fabled</a>"... Just curious, what changed your mind so drastically?

[SpiralDown]

<p>The class is underpowered, for sure, but not broken.  The troub role is support and for a support class 1000 dps is fine if the 'real' dps is doing 1800-2000 (granted we can't do that regularly and need a boost).  People are leaving the class because it isn't as strong as it should be, but I can't imagine bards will ever be very popular, because of the role they have.  Its why furies are the most popular healers.  They aren't pure support and get to dps as well.  Many want to be the hero and bards don't get to be the hero.  So, the popularity of a class, to a degree, shouldn't have a baring on how 'good' a class is.  Certain roles will always be more in demand.</p><p>Also... </p><p>Jester's Cap is one of the most versitile and useful spells around, if used well.  If it was full group, it would make use MORE of a buff bot... make a macro to cast jester's and PotM and hit it every 2 minutes.  Also, if it were full group, odds are you couldn't cast cross raid and that would take from its versitility.  </p><p>Our debuffs do help.  Can't say whether they are strong enough, but should be maintained.</p><p>Tanks need to dps well, otherwise only one or two would be brought on any raid and that would screw alot of people.</p><p>If any line AP line isn't to someone's liking, don't take it.</p><p>Seems a lack of DWs would be a problem for more than just bards.  When it comes to itemization and DPS, its rangers that get the short end of the stick.</p><p>Assassins and temps need fixing?  Pallies could use some dps, but the other two are fine.</p><p>... If a troub is focused entirely on their own dps, then they probably need to look for a new class.  DPS, even after being improved, won't be the focus of the class.  </p>

[Pogopuschel]

Underpowered = unbalanced = needs help/fixing/is broken. "Being broken" (in my dictionary <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ) doesn't mean the class is unplayable. > "When it comes to itemization and DPS, its rangers that get the short end of the stick."  Haha! Oh wait, you're serious - let me laugh even harder... There's at least 3 awesome bows from Emerald Halls alone. I can't say much about the class set since I don't know the class very well. But I regularly see ranger parses, and they are kinda yummy. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Antryg Mistrose]

Velas@Butcherblock wrote: <blockquote><p>The class is underpowered, for sure, but not broken.  The troub role is support and for a support class 1000 dps is fine if the 'real' dps is doing 1800-2000 (granted we can't do that regularly and need a boost).  People are leaving the class because it isn't as strong as it should be, but I can't imagine bards will ever be very popular, because of the role they have.  Its why furies are the most popular healers.  They aren't pure support and get to dps as well.  Many want to be the hero and bards don't get to be the hero.  So, the popularity of a class, to a degree, shouldn't have a baring on how 'good' a class is.  Certain roles will always be more in demand.</p><p>Also... </p><p>Jester's Cap is one of the most versitile and useful spells around, if used well.  If it was full group, it would make use MORE of a buff bot... make a macro to cast jester's and PotM and hit it every 2 minutes.  Also, if it were full group, odds are you couldn't cast cross raid and that would take from its versitility.  </p><p>Our debuffs do help.  Can't say whether they are strong enough, but should be maintained.</p><p>Tanks need to dps well, otherwise only one or two would be brought on any raid and that would screw alot of people.</p><p>If any line AP line isn't to someone's liking, don't take it.</p><p>Seems a lack of DWs would be a problem for more than just bards.  When it comes to itemization and DPS, its rangers that get the short end of the stick.</p><p>Assassins and temps need fixing?  Pallies could use some dps, but the other two are fine.</p><p>... If a troub is focused entirely on their own dps, then they probably need to look for a new class.  DPS, even after being improved, won't be the focus of the class.  </p></blockquote>You display so much ignorance of other classes, its probably not worth replying.  But I will anyway: People are leaving the class because its plain boring. Furies are not utility.  They heal just as good as any other priest, while still getting T2 dps, thats why they are popular. Our debuffs (bar mental) are rubbish - have a look at rogues, sheesh, have a look at templars. Tanks need to dps well? Um, relevance?  Paladins need dps for what exactly? so they can heal, tank AND dps? lol There are no real choices in AA line if you plan on raiding Templar dps is of course legendary ....  Do you actually play one? Itemisation and rangers?  Sheesh, how many bows do you need.

[ted]

<p>Well what changed my mind was since than our procs have been nerfed; nerfed and nerfed... aria does minimal damage for us now because with a 1.8 per a mind chance instead of a real 45% chance who wouldnt complain. </p><p>my proc gear which made about 10% of my dps has been knocked down to maybe 3% this includes aria so who wouldnt be [Removed for Content].</p><p>but its okay we have swashbucklers that do 5k damage, a pally doing 1.5k damage (on thing i can think of to fix pally's make them a tank again and stop trying to make them a templar).</p><p>for those that need clarity on classes that need fixing assasin is a major one 3 lines are broken 1 poison buff 1 tick its off (reminds me of the bump line for troubs, yeap you got that right its a worthless buff and no one tick its off dang thanks.)</p><p>no we arent dps but i find it rather boring to say hey all my usefullness is JC and PoTM woot 2 spells that matter that arent our main buffs. our CA's blow and our mage like spells blow the recast on perfect shrill is to long (if you know your troub than you know Eli's is probably majority of your dps). that is still weak sinister strike still by far kills any ability you have for a high hit. are you all really telling me a 5k hit is far. not only that i want a AoE outside encounter bards the only class without that why! please enlighten me on that one, please explain why if i am a scout i cant use poisons and please tell me why my bow is more powerful than my DW's. If anyone can explain these questions with a good anwser i am all ears but you cant 2 DW's from mobs that either rarely spawn and drop their rare is not balanced. For those that dont know about Rangers well buddy rangers are number 2 on the parse now they are killing assasins why is that? (assasins are a broken class just like bards). you will also have to explain while our self buff is the only one that takes a concentration slot which on raids means worthless because there are better buffs to run and even without it you parse about the same.</p><p>So thanks for the nerf and those that arent complaining about how its not a fun class to play than you need a wake up call! JC and PoTM and a few attack spells doesnt make me consider it a fun class. PoTM still dazes us locks us in place and loses more dps usually from mobs running around. fix us not poop on us thats what i would like to see fixing the classes and stop worrying about a stupid expansion raising the cap lvl and giving us more useless AA lines its not helping just breaking classes even more. it only took them 3 years to fix zander's WOOOHOOO! you telling me another 3 years and we will get what we want (I think many will quit this game before that; just like eq1 when the expansion from sony came out 30% of the player base quit.) so explain to me why they wouldnt listen to the players obviously its not going to well they are losing players left and right lately maybe more selection but i think its more they are tired of nothing getting fixed and adding broken content and unfinished expansions.</p>

[ted]

our DKTM line the run speed is broken my 50% mount is still faster than my run speed with the 9% increase uh its broken still!

[SpiralDown]

Antryg Mistrose wrote: <blockquote>You display so much ignorance of other classes, its probably not worth replying.  But I will anyway: People are leaving the class because its plain boring. Furies are not utility.  They heal just as good as any other priest, while still getting T2 dps, thats why they are popular. Our debuffs (bar mental) are rubbish - have a look at rogues, sheesh, have a look at templars. Tanks need to dps well? Um, relevance?  Paladins need dps for what exactly? so they can heal, tank AND dps? lol There are no real choices in AA line if you plan on raiding Templar dps is of course legendary ....  Do you actually play one? Itemisation and rangers?  Sheesh, how many bows do you need. </blockquote>Ok, I'm no expert in other classes and was to up beat, wouldn't call myself ignorant.  There is no need to be insulting.  I may have a tendency to argue too far one way if some one is exagerrating in the other direction. However... I don't find troubs boring, but that's me.  I KNOW I am in a very small minority, and find interest in odd things.  There is a difference though in enjoying a class and wishing for improvement vs. hating a class and wanting it to be something else to fit what I would like (which quite a few posters give me a sense of) Furies don't heal as well as any other healers.  They are too focused on dps; all their buffs are based around it and no tank will take a fury as their first choice. Our debuffs are far too weak (I was wrong to understate it), but shouldn't be on par with rogues, that's one of their prime functions.  Debuffing all resists is still pretty good and actually does more than the mental debuff since everyone in the raid will get some benefit from it. From a raid view point, tanks need dps (most having all they need at the moment) otherwise many wouldn't get invited to raid.   Pallies do need a bit more.  When they aren't tanking,  they are dps like most other classes, except they're on rezzing duty too.   Not saying they should be topping any parses, but as stands they need some help. Everyone is in the same boat with AP.  Certain lines are near required for raiding and many lines have crap in them in order to get what is useful.  Shamans are always complaining about their dogs.  The archery line for rangers has a run buff too, that they need to take to get to range crit and casting reducer. Temps can break 1000 dps, but healers don't need dps unless they're soloing.  Only furies kind of need it since they are lacking in what other healers have. For a ranger to max their dps in raids, they need one of a handful of fabled bows.  Without the right bow they are subpar dps (since that's all they do, they are screwed without it), with it they can stand with any other class.  To get the absolute best dps in fact, they need two bows: one to summon ammo, one to fire.  The main problem being they require these in order to do their job, not whether the bows exist or not.  Until they get the right bow they have the dps of class with more utility and can be easily replaced.

[Strums]

<p>Just on a whim the other night in raid, I took off hate <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and replaced it for rousing opus "haste" and  fought ranged the whole zone.  I have a bow with a 87 damage rateing and a 7 second delay.  All was doing was auto attacking with the bow and any ranged spell or bow ca I had.  I was able to parse 1200 for the whole zone.  Thats my highest zone parse yet.  With rousing opus up, my bow was auto attacking about every 3.5 - 4 seconds and was hitting for 1500-2500.  Not too shabby!</p><p>btw, the zone was MMIS, other buffs I ran were mana regen, dove song, aria, and self buff.  We have a really great tank too, so the agro was not an issue from losing hate for the group.</p>

[Spider]

<cite>Strums wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Just on a whim the other night in raid, I took off hate <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and replaced it for rousing opus "haste" and  fought ranged the whole zone.  I have a bow with a 87 damage rateing and a 7 second delay.  All was doing was auto attacking with the bow and any ranged spell or bow ca I had.  I was able to parse 1200 for the whole zone.  Thats my highest zone parse yet.  With rousing opus up, my bow was auto attacking about every 3.5 - 4 seconds and was hitting for 1500-2500.  Not too shabby!</p><p>btw, the zone was MMIS, other buffs I ran were mana regen, dove song, aria, and self buff.  We have a really great tank too, so the agro was not an issue from losing hate for the group.</p></blockquote><p> this is aout in line with what ive been saying for a ong long time we are the perfect ranged kiter's </p><p>we can kite jsut aout anything with ease </p><p>sometimes it takes a bit longer than some other classes to kill certain mobs but we can do it without  taking a 10th the damge and using a lot less power  </p>

[Unwise]

<p>My brain hurts. We seem to have people agreeing that troubs have no active roll and are buff bots, but at the same time saying they are constantly hitting CAs and spells. Isn't that what every class does? Hits the buttons they are given? </p><p>Do people refer to themselves as buff bots because the majority of the goodness they bring to a raid is passive? Or do people take buff bot to mean that they don't have many keys to hit to be effective?</p><p>Are we really complaining about having to hit too many buttons to do DPS? I would like to think I am missing something here. </p><p>It seems to be the game design, its a game of clicking, not EQ1 style auto attacking. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying complaints are invalid, I just find the arguement intriguing.</p>

[Tri]

i'll try to clear it up a bit Raidparties need bards because of the buffs, two of those buffs not being of the cast and forget style. <span style="color: #66ffcc">Precision of the maestro, for your group every 1m30 Jester's Cap, for anyone in the raid every 30 seconds</span> Add to this the 3 (5) encounter debuffs ,kind of weak and power consuming, and the 3 single target ones. Besides those you ,as a player with a troub toon, can <span style="color: #ff3300"><u>continuously</u></span> spam your spells / attacks as soon as a fight begins in order to reach crappy dps. I think that kind of button smashing should either yield greater benefits or not made possible. edited for what i think were spelling mistakes : p

[Nainitsuj]

<p>Method 1 Cast Kian's, PotM then Jester's yourself.  Once PotM is up start rotating Alin's, Disheartening, Mighty, D. Process, Zander's.  Put the debuffs up then take them down right away.  Repeat until PotM is done.  Wait 50 seconds and do it again.  Congrats you just did 600 to 1100 dps depending on your gear / spells.</p><p>Method 2 If a cleric is in your group, cast Jester's on the Cleric.  Have the cleric use Divine recovery.  Cast PotM and follow the spell rotation listed above.  With roughly 5 seconds left on Jester's, cast it on yourself.  Wait 50 seconds and use method 1.  In another 2:66, the cleric will be ready to do this again.  (3:30 total) Congrats you just easily broke 1200 dps depending on your gear / spells.</p><p>I hate hearing people say troubs can't dps.  </p>

[Tri]

if you consider non stop spamming  to reach 1.2 k dps while using divine recovery and jester with raid level dps gear is fine good for you. <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> unfortunately for me that is not the case, i do not consider what i must do to reach the 1k barrier fine. i think that a class with such a specific niche of utility should be allowed to go nuclear when in the right setup.

[Nainitsuj]

<cite>Triag wrote:</cite><blockquote>if you consider non stop spamming  to reach 1.2 k dps while using divine recovery and jester with raid level dps gear is fine good for you. <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> unfortunately for me that is not the case, i do not consider what i must do to reach the 1k barrier fine. i think that a class with such a specific niche of utility should be allowed to go nuclear when in the right setup. </blockquote><p> "I don't want to use the tools given to our class to maximise my dps.  Our class is broken."</p><p>If you purposfully refuse to use the information given to you to improve your performance and think it's fine, good for you. <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Just please stop saying the class is broken, unbalanced, nerfed, borked, etc. just because you won't do what is necessary to parse well.  A comparison would be a summoner who refuses to use his or her pet because they feel they should be able to do it themself without the pet.</p>

[Tri]

well you are making an issue out of something that is not the subject here, you presume that i think it is not usefull dpsing to help the raid, while the debate is about if the button smashing to reach that 1k dps is borked or not. i think you are also presuming i and the other players complaining don't know how to play this class, which ,even though i am not an uber leet whatever player, is false. now i ask of you to re read my posts and tell me where i stated "thou shall not dps"

[Nainitsuj]

<cite>Triag wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #ffff00">unfortunately for me that is not the case, i do not consider what i must do to reach the 1k barrier fine. </span> </blockquote><p> "I don't like the tools given to me to reach acceptable dps, therefore the class is broken.  Please fix."</p>

[VericSauvari]

<cite>Nainitsuj wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Triag wrote:</cite><blockquote>if you consider non stop spamming  to reach 1.2 k dps while using divine recovery and jester with raid level dps gear is fine good for you. <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> unfortunately for me that is not the case, i do not consider what i must do to reach the 1k barrier fine. i think that a class with such a specific niche of utility should be allowed to go nuclear when in the right setup. </blockquote><p> "I don't want to use the tools given to our class to maximise my dps.  Our class is broken."</p><p>If you purposfully refuse to use the information given to you to improve your performance and think it's fine, good for you. <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Just please stop saying the class is broken, unbalanced, nerfed, borked, etc. just because you won't do what is necessary to parse well.  A comparison would be a summoner who refuses to use his or her pet because they feel they should be able to do it themself without the pet.</p></blockquote> ok...yes i will agree that you can easily break 1k+ in a group encounter however how do YOU hit 1k single target, expecially a single target raid mob.

[Tri]

<cite>Nainitsuj wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Triag wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #ffff00">unfortunately for me that is not the case, i do not consider what i must do to reach the 1k barrier fine. </span> </blockquote><p> "I don't like the tools given to me to reach acceptable dps, therefore the class is broken.  Please fix."</p></blockquote>Yep i don't like digging tunnels with a plastic spoon. But given how i have no other way of getting out of my cell i keep on diggin. It's my opinion, influenced by the fact that i have no other troub to compete with. On a side note  i don't think balance is even possible in a MMORPG. That is not a reason to widen the gap between classes though. Which isn't even the problem of the bard classes for me, so the use of the the word "balance" in my first post was wrong, i should have said "fun issues" when trying to get the most out of your troub. The not directly asked question of my first post was, "" Am i the only one who thinks that 96% of my playtime during raids isn't worth sheet when compared to the effectivness of my passive buffs and the allmighty Jester's Cap ? ""

[Nainitsuj]

<cite>VericSauvari wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nainitsuj wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Triag wrote:</cite><blockquote>if you consider non stop spamming  to reach 1.2 k dps while using divine recovery and jester with raid level dps gear is fine good for you. <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> unfortunately for me that is not the case, i do not consider what i must do to reach the 1k barrier fine. i think that a class with such a specific niche of utility should be allowed to go nuclear when in the right setup. </blockquote><p> "I don't want to use the tools given to our class to maximise my dps.  Our class is broken."</p><p>If you purposfully refuse to use the information given to you to improve your performance and think it's fine, good for you. <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Just please stop saying the class is broken, unbalanced, nerfed, borked, etc. just because you won't do what is necessary to parse well.  A comparison would be a summoner who refuses to use his or her pet because they feel they should be able to do it themself without the pet.</p></blockquote> ok...yes i will agree that you can easily break 1k+ in a group encounter however how do YOU hit 1k single target, expecially a single target raid mob. </blockquote><p>Sometimes I replace the green debuffs with the faster single target attacks.  Sometimes I use the same method I posted before.  Sometimes I put haste up and let my bow do the damage (4k hit/7k crit off the bow, plus a 599 DD slash proc with dual prop/ancestry, 3.6 times per min.)  </p>