Guard Time...

[Legiax]

<p>Hi All,</p><p>Right, so I can assume godly powers and actually know both classes (Zerk / Guard) well enough im rolling a guardian to 70. </p><p>Now, I know good buckler builds, so dont want to hear a buckler build at all, but would someone want to post a good build for using a tower shield constantly, and also a good EoF build purely for absorbing damage?</p><p>After playing 4 zerkers since EQ2's release, creating DPS / Agro builds has become second nature... creating damage mitigating builds however i rarely ever look into.</p><p>So, ideas?</p>

[Sir_Halbarad]

Let's see... I think the most defensive KoS spec would be INT and either AGI or WIS. In EoF I think the Tree leading to Block (Stalwarting?) has all the stuff a defensive guard needs. And then Slaughtering for at least doing a bit more dps (and getting the 10% Double Attack). While you are going down the Slaughtering Tree you can get rescue 3 and reinforcement 5 as well. Hope that helps.

[Aven Elonis]

<p>Trying AGI and INT now - gave up WIS and STR, and seems like taking less damage now.</p><p>On Block - got this, but not sure it is worth that much, any thoughts from others on this ?</p>

[Kinesthesia]

I have done basically what Halbarad has said.  I have taken the INT and AGI lines to the bottom.  Dragoon's Reflexes (I can almost hear the Uber Guards giggling) has saved my [Removed for Content] too many times to give up just yet.  Though I hope to respec someday to INT and STA. I wouldn't give INT up for anything. On the Guard tree, I have taken Slaughtering down to the double attack and branched off to Rescue 5 and Reinforcement 5. I went down the tree towards Block for a while, but I just don't think the benefits are significant enough to warrant spending the points, and I wanted to recoup dps lost by giving up the buckler.  But as Halbarad said, if you want to go full defensive, that's the way to go. Personally, when I get my last 10 points, they will go into debuffing. 

[Legiax]

<p>So basically AGI / INT for the parry and defence i presume, interesting to say the least!</p><p>Anyone got a good link to the Guardian EoF tree? </p><p>The name and Toon are created, and im getting all his adept 3's up until 58 made before i begin to level him.</p>

[Ep]

Guard tree is cookie cutter, 20aa in dps get double attakc, 20aa in stalwart get block, pump some into reinforce war tree, i do str/agi why str and not int? i'm beyond cap for parry when i tank, i'm at 465?(462) parry Haven't tested how much more extra parry does against epic 74/75's. i do str for preferance really, had it almost since release and i'm not giving up the crits/hate, heh(if they would make executioner, str ultimate even worthwhile, i'd pump 2 points into there, but if your mt, you'll be down to 50% once or nite or dead really, either your healers get aoe'd stunned' or something god aweful happens to some how let you get below 50%, even on long 10m avatar fights then only time i drop to 50% is when i'm about to die) but int ultimate is nice, i stacked it with four winds ring for a while, couldn't stop spamming =p

[Terron]

I have Str ultimate and I find it to be more than just worthwhile when soloing. When group with a healer it is useless, but I am glad there is one soloing specific achievement there.

[Wilin]

I used to be pure defense. That works until your raid dps climbs. You have to hold aggro and you can't do that without decent dps. (dirge and coercer hate buffs are still based on your hate, ie +70% of a small number is still a small number) If you're not going to use a buckler, then you should invest 16 AA into the str line and get the max crit chance. After that, dump some points into either int or agi. (Most go with int for the parry and haste)

[Legiax]

<p>Definitely will not be taking the STR ultimate, and thats purely based off experience from the 4 70 zerkers i've got. The STR ultimate is terrible in all aspects.. e.g. it procs, your at 49%, and poof your healed for 200 and at 51%, and it dispells, then is useless for 1 min 30 or w/e the reuse it.</p><p>Heres my plan thus far for 2 PvP defensive builds, keeping in mind this Guard will be a PvP toon as well as PvE so I can properly compare zerk vs guard in all respects.</p><p><b>PvP Defensive Build (Warrior tree only)</b> </p><p>DPS not even considered into the point, mainly working at holding agro, high avoidance and increased utilities for group / raid.</p><p>1 Bind Wound</p><p>4-4-5-8-2 INT</p><p>* Gives parry and haste and increase reuse speed for taunts / short terms etc.</p><p>4-4-8-8-2 AGI</p><p>* Gives AoE chance on auto attacks, increased defence + Tsunami. AoE Taunt + Tsuanmi = PvP Shiznit</p><p><b>PvP Mixed Build (Warrior Tree Only)</b></p><p>1 Bind Wound</p><p>4-7-8-8 STA</p><p>* Double attack, high b-reversal damage and uncontested avoidance from buckler riposte etc</p><p>4-4-4-8-2 AGI</p><p>* Tsunami, +defense for avoidance, AoE chance on auto attack. </p><p>I dont even want to worry about DPS... none of these builds even consider it as a factor for the build, as they presume I will be grouped.</p><p>I'll start working on some ideas for PvE builds soon, meanwhile any thoughts on the above? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p>

[Kinesthesia]

Legiax, Kinda spooky, I just respeced last night from almost exactly your "Defensive Build" to your "Mixed Build" last night (without having read this). Minor point, you're off by one point in Int (it takes 22 points to open up the bottom ability).

[Legiax]

Hehehe, the Mixed build is nice, and thanks for pointing out the 1 rogue point. Got all my spells made now... time to grind <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Jackula]

This is also off:<p><b>PvP Mixed Build (Warrior Tree Only)</b></p>4-4-4-8-2 AGI You're two points shy in the AGI tree to get the AGI ultimate skill.  You'll have to take 2 points from the STA line and re-invest them here if you want the ultimate as planned.  As a minimum, you need to invest 4 points into each skill to unlock the next one, 22 points in the line to unlock the ultimate, and then a final 2 more points to get the ultimate. I'm sure you  know this but were just having a bad math day.  Including an extra point allocation explanation for younger players reading and learning. Given the choice between the two builds, if I was going for a defensive build I would go the INT & AGI route.  That's as defensive as you can get.  The upside is your survivability goes up a lot with this build.  It makes very tough fights easier.  The rest of the time it makes your healers more bored and lazy.  The downside is any soloing becomes harder.  If you solo very little that's a non issue.  Also, you're doing less dps and generating less hate with this build which presents its own challenges.  It isn't so bad in a raid setting as hopefully you should have access to hate increases or transfers from at least two and with luck three others.  It might be harder in single group situations.  If you're unlucky enough to tank for one healer and 4 AE classes, their survivability is going to go down the toilet unless they hold back a little more than usual.  They'll be peeling mobs from you often.

[Legiax]

Did the builds i posted at work, with no actual reference, it was all memory lol. Was quite impressed i got 95% correct from memory.... no wait, thats just sad and i need to take a break. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> In PvP the AGI + INT build would be great, as mobs peeling off doesnt apply. The STA build however offers a little more flexibility.

[Wilin]

<p>First, there was no mention in your original post that you would be doing PvP. And since non-PvP guardian = raid tank, my answers were based off of PvE in raids. </p><p>Enrage@Venekor wrote: </p><blockquote><p>Definitely will not be taking the STR ultimate, and thats purely based off experience from the 4 70 zerkers i've got. The STR ultimate is terrible in all aspects.. e.g. it procs, your at 49%, and poof your healed for 200 and at 51%, and it dispells, then is useless for 1 min 30 or w/e the reuse it.</p></blockquote><p>I didn't suggest taking the end line str ability. Maybe someone else did. I just suggested that you put 16 points into STR for the max crit chance. That would be 4-4-8. This is not about doing more damage. It is about holding aggro. Again, if you're not raiding, you don't worry about aggro. So maybe this does not apply to you.</p><p>Enrage@Venekor wrote: </p><blockquote><p>DPS not even considered into the point, mainly working at holding agro, high avoidance and increased utilities for group / raid.</p><p>I dont even want to worry about DPS... none of these builds even consider it as a factor for the build, as they presume I will be grouped.</p><p>I'll start working on some ideas for PvE builds soon, meanwhile any thoughts on the above? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p></blockquote><p>But wait, you mention raiding here. There is a fundamental flaw in your reasoning here, at least as far as raids are concerned. You think dps should not be considered for holding aggro. It's possible since you aren't familiar with guards that no one has told you yet. But guards need DPS to keep aggro on raids. Our aggro abilities are not far and away better than a zerker's. Like I said before, I used to be all defense. It doesn't matter how defensive you are if you're losing aggro on every other fight. Of course, this isn't a problem if the DPS is not high. But eventually, you want it to be high, and in order to get there, you have to do your own dps. It's a win/win situation because oddly enough you have to add dps in order for everyone else to add dps. The only thing that you are gaining by switching to a guard is spike damage mitigation. You can handle big hits better than a zerker and that's it. Aggro control is roughly the same and tanking on normal fights is roughly the same. That's why most folks only play guards if they plan to be a raid tank.</p>

[Terron]

<cite>Wilin wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>First, there was no mention in your original post that you would be doing PvP. And since non-PvP guardian = raid tank, my answers were based off of PvE in raids. </p> <p><span style="color: #ffcc00">Not all PvE guards are raid tanks or even want to be.</span> </p> <p>Enrage@Venekor wrote: </p><blockquote><p>Definitely will not be taking the STR ultimate, and thats purely based off experience from the 4 70 zerkers i've got. The STR ultimate is terrible in all aspects.. e.g. it procs, your at 49%, and poof your healed for 200 and at 51%, and it dispells, then is useless for 1 min 30 or w/e the reuse it.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ffcc00">There is an aspect in which the STR ultimate is not terrible. It is very good for soloing, though useless if you are grouped with a healer.</span> </p> <p>That's why most folks only play guards if they plan to be a raid tank. </p> <p><span style="color: #ffcc00">I am one of the exceptions to that.</span> </p> </blockquote>

[Wilin]

I apologize for not mentioning the non-raid PvE guardians. I used to be one myself for the first 1.5 years of the game. But if the OP already has 4 zerkers, IMHO there is no reason to switch to guardian unless he's going to be a raid tank. But, that's another discussion for another time.

[Legiax]

<p>Im not switching to Guardian at all. Im creating one as a non-raid MT, for PvP and non-raid PvE so I can fully understand, after playing both of the main tank classes, which does what, how, where, why and when to the best degree possible. </p><p>In my eyes, Zerkers still make the best PvP tank out there... and I do not want this thread to become guard v zerk. What I do want, is a reference for other people perhaps thinking the same, to see some tried and tested builds for everyday use.</p><p>So people, suggest some builds for me and i'll post them up on the OT, once this thread is concluded, i'll sumarise and perhaps it will be of some use.</p>

[lCUBANOl]

Enrage@Venekor wrote: <blockquote><p>Im not switching to Guardian at all. Im creating one as a non-raid MT, for PvP and non-raid PvE so I can fully understand, after playing both of the main tank classes, which does what, how, where, why and when to the best degree possible. </p><p>In my eyes, Zerkers still make the best PvP tank out there... and I do not want this thread to become guard v zerk. What I do want, is a reference for other people perhaps thinking the same, to see some tried and tested builds for everyday use.</p><p>So people, suggest some builds for me and i'll post them up on the OT, once this thread is concluded, i'll sumarise and perhaps it will be of some use.</p></blockquote> Enrage why dont you just talk to the man who makes you smile. Im assuming you want a complete aggro [Removed for Content]/meatshield tank to be running around with DOM am I correct? Well pvp wise alot of people are on traget for the Tower Shield idea. Tsunami is very nice in pvp because alot of times people get in the metality to burn the tank down and as a guardian your guna have aggro whether you like it or not. So the agi line is very nice with the tsunami plus the def+ bonus. On top of that you get another aoe with a spear than you can hot bar so say when you pop reinforcement thats another hit to pull threat.  Id say take the AGI line fore sure. As far as the other line Im split between Wis and Int. Wis is nice with the huge Mit bonus making moves like Sniper shot, Decap fell like a tickle. On the other hand with the INT line is nice because you get some self haste and the extra parry and witht he right adorns your gettin over 60% self avoidance. The guard tree is nice the very first line is great for pvp IMO. Alot of your buffs you place on your friends get added bonuses but the ultimate is a piece of [Removed for Content]. Some of the buffs you place on healers give them like an extra 400-500mit to all damages and increases times like reinforcement and rescue. The line on the very right forget the name also increases some of your reuse timers like Stone Sphere  and what not which is your best friend in pvp as im sure you see what it does. The ultimate is pretty nice with the extra block but kind of a hassle to stop auto attack and it might be blown on a scout auto attacking you. But both of those lines have great CA's that you can throw points into. The aoe root is very nice increasing the duration to like 10secs and if the other group doesnt have a warden than its Open house for all scouts and mages as they get around 6-7secs to do what they want. Im going to stop rambling and you got vent info come hollar at me if you want some more ideas. Peace! -Mwink

[lCUBANOl]

Also for [Removed for Content] and giggles I would say for a 30sec to 1min fight Zerkers are King but for the long endurance fights like 5-7min Guards are the [Removed for Content].

[Ruffinx]

AA specs are alwasy fun to think about, especially on a pvp server.  I primarily solo with my 70 guardian (full set of PVP gear ftw) and I use str and wis on the KoS tree, and then slaughter and stalwarting on the EOF tree.  Stalwarting allows you to extend your root and cut the reuse timer on unyielding will in half and that's huge if you solo.  Plus I solo in offensive stance, so the ultimate on the wis line removes my penalties and basically gives me the same defensive bonus that I would have received if I went down either the agi or int lines.  Also str and wis is not bad, with extra hate and mitigation, for occasional raiding and grouping.  I experimented with agility and was disappointed, but I know a lot of people like the 12 sec parry defense (except it's insta death against swashies who make up like half of the Qeynos pvp population, and 12 secs of no taunts is a long time).  Still if I never raided or grouped, I'd go str and sta for the dps which would be soooo nice.  I know people are down on the wis line with the diminishing returns, but I still like it combined with str. for the flexibility.