the shadowknight woes

[Kazer]

<p>k fellow SK's here is the deal.</p><p> im a decently geared/mastered lvl 70 SK, not too good not too bad but definetly the guy u want as an offtank. but thats just it...i off tank, i cant main tank because i get cut up like cheese and a chainsaw. my mitigation tends to b 4500-5k in groups, my avoidance is 30% (not very high i know) but even with that i seem to go down faster then other classes with similiar stats or even lower stats. any advice?</p><p> kinda gets embarassing to have to type Unrest group LFM tank and get about 15 tells saying "wait arent u a tank?!" and respond with "ya but i suck" and its a bit of a waste of a slot.</p>

[SinIsLaw]

hmm so u "off tanking" in group instances? Now that is something new ... tbh i don't know any instance where you need an offtank - it only makes things more complicated really! Unrest is not much off a different zone then others, once you know how to pull & how the rings work it is a easy going ... done Unrest various amounts of times, either tanked it on my SK, or healed a SK friend on my defiler etc ... no biggy really! If you really feel the need to respond to people like "ya but i suck" then well sorry, but I have to say you play the wrong class ... imho as it currently stands SKs and Zerkers are the best tanks for instance runs & grinding, as both can very well chain pull and keep tons of mobs on them and burn em down! If gear is an issue, take it slow - pull single groups at time - when forming ur group look for 2 healers & try to grab either a bard or chanter ...

[Axxon]

<p>I don't know how to respond to this other than to encourage you to continue to gear up, if gear is the issue.  I am 70 with mostly Adept 3 spells, and mostly mastercrafted armor, and I have sucessfully tanked Unrest, OOB, Valdoons and the KOS instances.  I also tanked the Enforcer in Halls of Seeing last night, so something is wrong with either your tanking strategy or your group.  If you've been tanking successfully through 70 levels, I suspect the problem may be your groups.  </p><p>Do you use a static group, or is it always pickups?  Do not underestimate the power of a group that a) knows what they are doing and b) knows each other.  But don't blame the class.  Whatever the problem is, it's not the class.  After 2+ years, I am pretty sick and tired of the class being blamed for everyone's problems.  </p><p>It's not the class.  Did I say it's not the class?  Ok....good.</p><p>'Cause it's not.</p>

[Pentarum]

General advice from a old SK player.... Get your HP higher and go reaver line. Reaver can help a tremendous amount with offsetting the damage you take as a MT for SK. Get 5 aa's in all the aa's that add healing. Keep Coil and Blessing running nonstop. Use your Ho's!!!!  Make sure debuffs are being used. Yours and your groups. Alot of people ignore simple things like Hex dolls and debuffs but they can make or break raid mob fights and even group fights. Despoil is crazy good on large encounters. Work on a spell casting orders to maximize your dps and healing. Once a mob is in camp start your chain and keep it going. You should be poping ho's nonstop using your taunts and lifetaps. Taunts heal SK's now that they are consided spells for Reaver. I've tanked 75 4x raid mobs in offensive using Qeynos claymore with 12 people. I wait till the mobs been debuffed then I announce in TS that im going offensive so everyone knows they can start going crazy on damage. That also tells them that they may need to watch for spikes and its not time to slack yet. I ignored all the taunt aa's and went full int (748 self buffed) cause my spell dps and healing hold agro just fine on all but chain casting warlocks. If done right you CAN tank anything a guardian can. To the people who say they do it better. No they just do it differently. A very well played Sk can tank things a guardian gets eaten on for one reason. Our self healing. Sure any mob that hits for 7k+ is a different story. But your 1-3k in heals after that hit is more than having a tank that cant do it at all. While thats still not great compared to a Cleric healer its still alot. Instance groups I often outheal most healers cept defilers. I sneeze I heal. Every spell I cast heals me. In the time it takes for a Fury to cast 1 heal and have it reset I've cast Drain Vitae, my taunt heals,  coil, and blessing doing more than that one fury heal did + alot of damage only to start all over again from the fast recast. I get lots of coments from healers hardly having to heal cause by the time they do I've already toped off. Make group /say /g macro's on things like Tap Veins. If a cleric knows your about to lifetap 6 mobs around you and complete heal they can do something else other than waste mana. Same goes for Death march. Make a macro!! Let those casters and melee dps know its time to go full out.  They love it cause they get to wack things more for alot more damage and stuff just melts like butter. SK's have changed alot in the past year but its sad that most guilds still have the opinion we are horrible. We still have issues but in alot of situations we can really shine. Tanking the last boss in Nizara with only myself and a fury healing was a good one. That mob is tuff for alot of people who arent well geared and still gives alot of groups trouble. I went as the OT with a Guardian MT and he ended up letting me take over cause my Self healing was the win. He got eaten 3x before he gave up cause the fury just wasnt enough healing. I kited it around the room with spell agro doting, bashing, kicking and life tapping it while the DPS just stood around dodging beams nuking the crap of of her. That same idea works with alot of raid mobs that dont have to be planted as well as instances. Use your kick and bash more. The short time it takes for the mob to stand or recover is enough time to get blessing off or to step back a few feet and nuke like mad and still be healing yourself. The stun may not work on most raid named but you'll notice the animation of a knocked down mob trying to recover and a short pause while the animation plays out. If you hit bash or kick and back up a few feet you will notice that mob will change target sometimes. Not cause you lost agro but cause the mob in that brief time cant "hit" you since it cant move so it will take a swing a someone else. Use that time to tap or cast another blessing and step back in. The agro will snap right back.

[Tyrani]

<p>SKs can tank any instance in the game, as well as many raid mob encounters (at least the ones I've been a part of).</p><p>Gear means a lot...as well as AA.  Reaver will help a tremendous amount when tanking.  As well as adornments...the +70hp, +14 STA, +mit...fill up your armor with adornments and you'll be golden.</p>

[Zanix]

<p>yep. anyone can agree, I am one of the worse meatshields ever known, but it's still possible, and easy to utilize what you have to effectively tank even unrest. I've done it several times, even with groups consiting of 4 members. </p><p>1. Like mentioned above....use your HOs! they are imperitive to grabbing the initial agro and keeping it. I typically pull with the fighter HO, because it generates a lot of hate and agro. </p><p>2. DPS. the higher on the scale you are, the more you'll hold agro. simple numbers</p><p>3. Reaver line. This line tremendously helps your health pool. </p><p>4. Heal yourself..a LOT. I am life taping and warding myself every second I can. The KOS STR line helps me cast these faster than normal. </p><p>5. get yourself a good healer. I find the ones typing in chat or semi-afk = dead SK = dead group.</p>

[Coica]

Tanked Unrest with 1 healer for the first time this weekend. yeah, Im a little proud  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I'm also Mastered out except for 3 adeptIII's and have 87AA's well placed and a good group around me that knows me and I them.  some good stuff in this thread, Ima read it again <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Kazer]

<p>bah im thinkin it was teh group. 2 furies (one of which likes to DPS a lil too much), a wizzy who cant control her nukes, me, a conj, and a coercer. it was a pickup group, took about an hr to get it goin :/</p>

[Pentarum]

Fury's are great for sk's they buff int, mana and give you thorns. Great "mage sk" buffers but having 2 of them in the same group is your problem. Their Buffs dont stack. Oh and Furies can do very respectable dps now 1-2k dps if they spec for it so dont blame one for nuking if they think the other is supposed to be healing. Conj can heal as well if they have the healing pet AA line. I've gone in unrest with just a fury and 2 conj and had a blast finishing the whole zone with just us 4. Getting a Necro for Unrest will make things alot quicker btw. They just own there.

[Beldin_]

<p>I think a lot of furys and worlocks still remember the times, when you started to cast your AoE with 4 second cast-time, and when you finished it you got the message that the target is already dead .. so after a while you started casting them directly on inc. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p><p>However .. a starnova can do like 2,5k on the encounter, with vortex and crit it can be near 4k .. and you won't get the aggro back then if a fury starts with that <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Pentarum]

Yep Fury's and even SK's now if setup right can do some nice aoe or in fury case encounter damage. Get Tap Veins speced right and using the right buffs/gear you can do 2-3k+ aoe every 30 sec with a lifetap as well on each mob hit. My max hit on Tap veins was about 3200-3400  Aoe. Very nice every 30 sec <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> All the + spell damage gear and adornments I can get Troub Spell damage increaser 300-400 to each target Ro's Fury 400 to each target Caped 1070 int with Death march running Any proc gear you can get. Bcc,EoI,Fitz,DT rings. Add in my current 72% chance to crit Lots of BIG booms =P Fury's got a huge boost in damage with the eof aa lines they got. they went from doing 300-700 dps to 800-2k dps

[Angelow]

<p>The only single group instances that can have any real use for offtank that come to mind are MM Castle and Nizara if you run either of them without a coercer (personally perfer no coercer and just have 2 great healers with 1 tank, but have done them as both the OffTank and the main tank with an off tank in group).  For unrest you should be able to tear through that with a single healer, one tank, no backup tanks, no coercers.  Honestly the zone is not that bad.  I would recommend running a parser program.  These give you excellent information to see where people are pulling agro from you, what your average dps is landing, what mobs give you issues etc.  </p><p>The other thing to keep in mind, while as a tank it is your job to hold agro, it is a dps' job to not steal agro...... so honestly if your losing agro two people are at fault.  Now if the DPS is stealling agro parsing like 600 dps.... well you suck and you need to change something, but if they are popping 2k+ consistantly and not using their detaunts at all/well then you wont get agro too often and not really your fault.  Its a balancing act, the dps classes are generally capped on how much dps they can do by how well the tank can hold agro.  DPS that truly cuts loose WILL pull agro from you, and you cant stop it, so dont worry about that.  Make sure your holding up your end of the bargain and then tell them to start being smarter about agro management.  DPS classes dont need skill to put up big numbers, they need skill to put up the biggest numbers possible without causing things to go to hell in a hand basket.</p><p>Keep with the class, its a solid tank class for single group content, I personally love it for just that..... raids are a whole different ball game.</p>

[Wytie]

<cite>Kazerus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>k fellow SK's here is the deal.</p><p> im a decently geared/mastered lvl 70 SK, not too good not too bad but definetly the guy u want as an offtank. but thats just it...i off tank, i cant main tank because i get cut up like cheese and a chainsaw. my mitigation tends to b 4500-5k in groups, my avoidance is 30% (not very high i know) but even with that i seem to go down faster then other classes with similiar stats or even lower stats. any advice?</p><p> kinda gets embarassing to have to type Unrest group LFM tank and get about 15 tells saying "wait arent u a tank?!" and respond with "ya but i suck" and its a bit of a waste of a slot.</p></blockquote><p>I feel ya bro but ya know what??  Were the best off tank in the game/next to pallys, and thats what i like to do and am very good at it...</p><p>Being an offtank in an unrest group allows us you use one healer with my sk as backup with wards, interceed, & DM for just before the MT dies. It gets no better at off tank than the SK sure we can MT but our class is the versital one and the down side to that is were not great at anything. BUT good at alots of things.</p><p>First off were casters if we MT were just not able to use our full potetial due to interrups from masive agro but thats ok we can manage or we can dps or heck just solo <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>We are the bomb at snap agro just before someone dies i cant tell you have many times i stole agro from a dieing tank to save the group sometimes i died cause of it but it saved our group from a wipe, and thats my job, ill take a death over a group wipe anyday of the week. </p><p>Yes we can tank but were not the best yes we can dps but were not the best yes we xcan solo but were not the best yes we can sorta heal but were not the best but not many can do all those things at the same time.</p><p>Enjoy your SK we are the kings of EQ2 IMO</p>

[Angelow]

<p>Honestly..... for single group runs like unrest..... how are we not considered "The Best" for tanking.  I can easily tank unrest with 1 healer and no crowd control with no deaths for the run (other tank types are equally able to do this, i just see nothing that they bring to the table that makes them a significantly better tank then we are for this level of content).  It is not our job to be offtanks in a group; that is a role you can CHOOSE to fill (read above post, there are places where I think off tanking has its place, just not really needed in unrest) but there is no reason you should be a sub par choice as a tank for anything that is single groupable.  Dont let others tell you that we suck at tanking compared to a guardian..... we dont.  The only thing we really do not excell at for tanking is handling those huge spikes you get when raid tanking..... that we are just without the same utitility as some of the other tank classes.  We actually handle the amount of dmg you see inc to a tank in a instance like unrest/nizara much better then a guardian IMO due to the steady stream of heals from reaver, it mellows out the average dps we take in.</p><p> As far as tanking reducing your dps..... well I find that the very small amount of dps I lose from being hit and interuppted is most often equalled out by my ripostes and procs that fire upon being hit.  My dps is almost identical when tanking or dpsing in single group content.  I am not saying that there is no reason to ever have 2 tanks in a group, hell some times it happens and if you can fill in that dps role well, you are basically a dps in that group who happens to wear plate if the poo hits the fan, but true off tanking is when you split encounters, taunt mobs off that are not the primary target, and generally tank the extra "trash" while the big boy tank handles the tough mobs in the pull.  You can be dps who wears plate and is able to step into the role of tank if that silly guardian dies..... but dont let them pigeon hole you into an off tank role, call it what it is, your either a tank or a dps  =P.</p>

[Wytie]

<cite>Angelow wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Honestly..... for single group runs like unrest..... how are we not considered "The Best" for tanking.  I can easily tank unrest with 1 healer and no crowd control with no deaths for the run (other tank types are equally able to do this, i just see nothing that they bring to the table that makes them a significantly better tank then we are for this level of content).  It is not our job to be offtanks in a group; that is a role you can CHOOSE to fill (read above post, there are places where I think off tanking has its place, just not really needed in unrest) but there is no reason you should be a sub par choice as a tank for anything that is single groupable.  Dont let others tell you that we suck at tanking compared to a guardian..... we dont.  The only thing we really do not excell at for tanking is handling those huge spikes you get when raid tanking..... that we are just without the same utitility as some of the other tank classes.  We actually handle the amount of dmg you see inc to a tank in a instance like unrest/nizara much better then a guardian IMO due to the steady stream of heals from reaver, it mellows out the average dps we take in.</p><p> As far as tanking reducing your dps..... well I find that the very small amount of dps I lose from being hit and interuppted is most often equalled out by my ripostes and procs that fire upon being hit.  My dps is almost identical when tanking or dpsing in single group content.  I am not saying that there is no reason to ever have 2 tanks in a group, hell some times it happens and if you can fill in that dps role well, you are basically a dps in that group who happens to wear plate if the poo hits the fan, but true off tanking is when you split encounters, taunt mobs off that are not the primary target, and generally tank the extra "trash" while the big boy tank handles the tough mobs in the pull.  You can be dps who wears plate and is able to step into the role of tank if that silly guardian dies..... but dont let them pigeon hole you into an off tank role, call it what it is, your either a tank or a dps  =P.</p></blockquote>I agree but if your group has two tanks, we better fill the role as off tank than any other tanks and thats what maximizes a group the ability to put people where they benefit the group the most... Nothing wrong with doing what a player likes but if you take this for example. I grouped alot with other tanks in pvp groups, XP groups  and  Raids, our groups always had the best success as: if there were 2 tanks, the SK as off tank, not that we had too but because we are totally unrestricted there, again it all depends on setup, but its hard to argue that statement. Personally i would rather have 2 SK's in a group than any other tank by my side, why? well thats a whole another thread, but from past experience it was great and done it many times.... All in all its all about setup, but as a caster interrupts suck and what hapens when you always have agro? No other tank has that issue atleast we got some love from SOE on Death March you dont get interrruped much then <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Norrsken]

<cite>Wytie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Angelow wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Honestly..... for single group runs like unrest..... how are we not considered "The Best" for tanking.  I can easily tank unrest with 1 healer and no crowd control with no deaths for the run (other tank types are equally able to do this, i just see nothing that they bring to the table that makes them a significantly better tank then we are for this level of content).  It is not our job to be offtanks in a group; that is a role you can CHOOSE to fill (read above post, there are places where I think off tanking has its place, just not really needed in unrest) but there is no reason you should be a sub par choice as a tank for anything that is single groupable.  Dont let others tell you that we suck at tanking compared to a guardian..... we dont.  The only thing we really do not excell at for tanking is handling those huge spikes you get when raid tanking..... that we are just without the same utitility as some of the other tank classes.  We actually handle the amount of dmg you see inc to a tank in a instance like unrest/nizara much better then a guardian IMO due to the steady stream of heals from reaver, it mellows out the average dps we take in.</p><p> As far as tanking reducing your dps..... well I find that the very small amount of dps I lose from being hit and interuppted is most often equalled out by my ripostes and procs that fire upon being hit.  My dps is almost identical when tanking or dpsing in single group content.  I am not saying that there is no reason to ever have 2 tanks in a group, hell some times it happens and if you can fill in that dps role well, you are basically a dps in that group who happens to wear plate if the poo hits the fan, but true off tanking is when you split encounters, taunt mobs off that are not the primary target, and generally tank the extra "trash" while the big boy tank handles the tough mobs in the pull.  You can be dps who wears plate and is able to step into the role of tank if that silly guardian dies..... but dont let them pigeon hole you into an off tank role, call it what it is, your either a tank or a dps  =P.</p></blockquote>I agree but if your group has two tanks, we better fill the role as off tank than any other tanks and thats what maximizes a group the ability to put people where they benefit the group the most... Nothing wrong with doing what a player likes but if you take this for example. I grouped alot with other tanks in pvp groups, XP groups  and  Raids, our groups always had the best success as: if there were 2 tanks, the SK as off tank, not that we had too but because we are totally unrestricted there, again it all depends on setup, but its hard to argue that statement. Personally i would rather have 2 SK's in a group than any other tank by my side, why? well thats a whole another thread, but from past experience it was great and done it many times.... All in all its all about setup, but as a caster interrupts suck and what hapens when you always have agro? No other tank has that issue atleast we got some love from SOE on Death March you dont get interrruped much then <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>Meh. I've been takning over both guardians and zerkers due to me holding aggro better than them. Lets not get into brawlers. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Ciarr]

<cite>Kazerus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>k fellow SK's here is the deal.</p><p> im a decently geared/mastered lvl 70 SK, not too good not too bad but definetly the guy u want as an offtank. but thats just it...i off tank, i cant main tank because i get cut up like cheese and a chainsaw. my mitigation tends to b 4500-5k in groups, my avoidance is 30% (not very high i know) but even with that i seem to go down faster then other classes with similiar stats or even lower stats. any advice?</p></blockquote><p>descently geared/mastered and 4.5-5k mit and 30% avoidence in group somehow doesn't sound right</p><p>hmm.. 2h weapon and offensive stance?</p><p>with the most basic armour set (mastercrafted xegonite & shield) you should have around 3.8k if I remember these old good times and 4.5k in group more or less, so this isn't off by much if you have the most basic tanking gear, but 30% avoidance sounds awfully low for a tank</p><p>all I can say instead of 'leaching' groups as 'off tank' you should run easy instances like Den (looks like you need dark chitin rings and chitin gloves badly) and oob/cov (armour) and kaladim for gloves, and PoA's dragons.</p><p>Unrest isn't a beginners's instance you need to gear a bit for that</p>

[Lord Hackenslash]

there is alot of talk about us being the best off tanks, and a simple reason for this is our flexibility. we get put in the off tank position not because we are any less able to main tank. the reason is if we have another tank we have the flexibility to something else while the other tanks can only just tank. its a curse we have for being as good as we are. Take an sk and guardian in a group. - now have the SK tank... the guardian pretty much sits there - reverse the roles - the sk can dps , help heal use a myriad of group utility spells add mitigation ect.. the guard can tank just fine The problem isn't that we cant tank is that we can do other things too and people know it

[Wytie]

Lord Hackenslash wrote: <blockquote>there is alot of talk about us being the best off tanks, and a simple reason for this is our flexibility. we get put in the off tank position not because we are any less able to main tank. the reason is if we have another tank we have the flexibility to something else while the other tanks can only just tank. its a curse we have for being as good as we are. Take an sk and guardian in a group. - now have the SK tank... the guardian pretty much sits there - reverse the roles - the sk can dps , help heal use a myriad of group utility spells add mitigation ect.. the guard can tank just fine The problem isn't that we cant tank is that we can do other things too and people know it </blockquote><p>QFE </p><p> Finally someone who understands <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> i couldnt have said it better!</p>

[Angelow]

Personally I find it better to just not bring a guardian on single group stuff....... but thats me.  Only tanks I enjoy rolling with for single group content are Zerkers who are dps specced or monks..... because well monks are nifty.  Really dont like being put into an offtank roll myself, but meh, personal taste.  Off tanking doesnt allow me to do more dps without swapping to gear that makes it so I cant tank if the primary guy drops, so im doing the same things i would be doing tanking, just now I am not pulling or worrying about agro so I can watch an episdoe of Robbot Chicken while we do mm castle.  Personally I say roll with 1 tank and just sub in a DPS for the backup tank slot.   Again...... ALL personal opinion, I can see the value both ways, just not for me.

[Hamervelder]

<cite>Kazerus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>k fellow SK's here is the deal.</p><p> im a decently geared/mastered lvl 70 SK, not too good not too bad but definetly the guy u want as an offtank. but thats just it...i off tank, i cant main tank because i get cut up like cheese and a chainsaw. my mitigation tends to b 4500-5k in groups, my avoidance is 30% (not very high i know) but even with that i seem to go down faster then other classes with similiar stats or even lower stats. any advice?</p><p> kinda gets embarassing to have to type Unrest group LFM tank and get about 15 tells saying "wait arent u a tank?!" and respond with "ya but i suck" and its a bit of a waste of a slot.</p></blockquote> Well you haven't given much information about your tactics, AA's, etc, for us to go on.  However, you should be able to tank Unrest with little problem.  In a good group.  If your group sucks, you're going to have a hard time.  Have you considered that?  Maybe you haven't found the right people to group with.