Shield Test...Does not add up!

[Xrazor]

<p>I have always heard you should use a shield when in a group to make it easier on your healers, so I decided to test this with my zerker (shield vs. dual wield) longevity and I was shocked at the results.</p><p>I fought 25 Dune Tarantulas ^^^, 25 Exiled Kromtorr's ^^^ and 25 Sentinal of Auk's ^^^</p><p>All of which I could go toe to toe with but would ultimately lose in the end.</p><p>I used the same buffs and used my combat spells in the same order, I then had my friend time each of my fights.</p><p>The best case results with a shield with 900 protection was I lasted 4 seconds longer, in some cases less, in the end when averaging the time numbers it came to .08 seconds longer with shield. Now if less than a second makes a real difference to a healer I would be even more shocked.</p><p>When fighting cons I could kill, the dual wield came to 6 seconds faster on average using and average of 3 to 4 combat spells less.</p><p>Bottom line, if you can dual wield, do it...</p><p>my toon is early 50's with a mix of fabled, legenday and mastercrafted gear...I would say I am your average toon out there.</p><p>I also mentored down to kill named in runnyeye and had the same results.</p>

[kenm]

Since I don't feel like explaining the mechanics behind shields and how they really start to show their complete benefit while tanking raid mobs, I'll just do this... You want reason to use a shield?  As a berserker, you'll do more DPS than you would from dual wielding if you simply spec down the buckler line.  <img src="/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Grissom]

<p>LOL....you just figured that out! </p><p>why do you think so many people duel wield.</p><p>EQ2 Vault had a test about 6 months ago, they compared to hundreds of cons and toons and the shield really did nothing to enhance the toon.....it is more for looks than anything.</p>

[Novusod]

For some reason many people recommended that my troubador use a shield while soloing because we have the least defence of all the scouts. However, by my mid 20s I figured out that I could kill more stuff and kill it faster if I was dual wielding. The only class that benefits from a shield are healers themselves when they are soloing and then then the difference is only marginal.

[Leafkiller]

Interesting, though I have my doubts. Level 70 paladin, fabled shield with various block enhancements and the shield makes a vast difference in my survivability. If I switch to a two hander, or a second symbol, my dps does go up, but the rate that I lose health increases dramatically against heroic mobs. Best balance for me seems to be weapon and shield in offensive mode, maybe its the quality of the shield?

[Macross_JR]

I'm sorry, but if I was a healer in a group where the tank wasn't using a shield I would a) leave the group if not leader, b) ask the tank to put a shield on, or c)kick the tank that refuses to use a shield.  I've been a tank since this game came out.  If you are killing stuff not using a shield and not losing health you need to move to higher level mob's.  And honestly, you will do more damage with a slower 2hd weapon in the long run then dual wielding.

[Beldin_]

So what does the starter say .. you kill grey mobs or maybe light-green mobs faster solo if you don't use a shield, and these grey mobs also don't hit you very often even without a shield ? WoW .. what a great analysis of the combat-system <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Kocia]

<p>Wow what an awesome thread.  I especially like the OP testing methodology.</p><p>Raid leaders worldwide take note, he's on to something!</p>

[steelbadger]

<div align="center">"So what does the starter say .. you kill grey mobs or maybe light-green mobs faster solo if you don't use a shield, and these grey mobs also don't hit you very often even without a shield ? WoW .. what a great analysis of the combat-system <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" <div align="left">The OP is in his/her low 50's, thus the mobs are blue/white.  He/she also stated that they timed how long it took for their own character to die with shield and without.  That is where the question of survivability not adding up arose. When fighting mobs that they could kill they did indeed found what you said, but that is not the point of the post.  The point is that shields give minimal advantages in terms of survivability, and when one could dual-wield and kill faster shields make little sense. Sarcasm ftl <img src="/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </div></div>

[Beldin_]

Algazeed@Runnyeye wrote: <blockquote><div align="center"> <div align="left">The OP is in his/her low 50's, thus the mobs are blue/white.  He/she also stated that they timed how long it took for their own character to die with shield and without.  That is where the question of survivability not adding up arose. When fighting mobs that they could kill they did indeed found what you said, but that is not the point of the post.  The point is that shields give minimal advantages in terms of survivability, and when one could dual-wield and kill faster shields make little sense. Sarcasm ftl <img src="/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </div></div></blockquote><p>Dune tarantulas are .. 47 i think .. so if the "early 50's" is at least 52 they are green.</p><p>A shield gives you simply better avoidance, and believe me, it IS a difference if you fight against something like 3 yellow ^^^ -Hoeroics at once in zones like Nek3 or Valdoon, if you have 20% more avoidance. </p><p>I think you could do the same test with offense vs. defense stance, and i must say i also prefer offense stance if we just run through zones like Sanctum or Palace, however i always use a shield in groups simply because the fact that there is an extra taunt that only works with shields.</p>

[Galithdor]

Ask anyone i have grouped with on AB lol they will say that ive never been seen without my shields <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> But hey...if they OP thinks a shield is worthless i guess its on him, it seems to help me with tanking and soloing alot <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Stevil_Firebrand]

<p>You've really not given enough data to back up your argument.</p><p>We need to know your level, the actual test results, your AA setup, What weapons and shields were used etc. You also need to tell us how much damage you did to X mob with each setup so we can compare the damage agaisnt the average time taken to make the kill.</p><p>Unless you back your claims up fully, people will not believe you even if what you say is correct.</p>

[NiteWolfe]

 Do yourself a favor OP and download and run ACT for your test. ACT is for more than just dps parse. run your same test. Ignore each fight then when done look at your damage taken for both shield and no shield for the zone.  Iam not goign to knock your choice of playstyle (DW) or your choice of test mobs. But where a tank using a shield truely shines is against mobs where a healer is used and the mobs do large blows. (disclaimer: numbers are just for sake of showing how a shield helps not a factual number) Avoiding 10% of a 300 dgm hit is only 30 less dgm hardly noticable. avoiding 10% of a 1000 dgm hit is 100, avoiding 10% of a 3000 dgm hit is 300. As you can see over the course of a zone such as raiding a shield can make a large diferance in the damage taken. But this is not limited to just raid zones and not all raid zones. put simply in a group or a raid as a tank if you notice your health is spiky get the shield out.  Just my 2 cents

[slashalot]

<p>it should also be noted that a 1 on 1 fight against mob will result in less effect of the shield.</p><p>but if you have 10 of the same mob at 1 time the shield will show the difference.</p><p>just like the person above me says; 10% of 300 is hard to see but 10% of 300x10 is very noticeable.</p>

[Galithdor]

<cite>slashalot wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>it should also be noted that a 1 on 1 fight against mob will result in less effect of the shield.</p><p>but if you have 10 of the same mob at 1 time the shield will show the difference.</p><p>just like the person above me says; 10% of 300 is hard to see but 10% of 300x10 is very noticeable.</p></blockquote> Yeah i have to agree with the above posters...lol i didnt put much info in my post above...but it does seem to help more when taking on more then 1 mob...and this IS when a shield shines <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[EvilIguana9]

The most glaring problem is that the OP is not telling us how long the fights lasted in total.  If I say I lasted 5 seconds longer with a shield, but the fight was only 5 seconds long without it, then we're talking about a 100% longevity increase.  I'm sure it's not quite that dramatic, but if he's fighting roughly even con +++ heroics with average gear, he may only be lasting 20 seconds or so without any backup.  In other words, that would add up to a 25% increase in longevity, which is an enormous sum in this game.  The second major problem with his assessment is that he is telling us something we already know.  In a solo fight, your DPS is king.  I always solo in offensive stance for that reason.  Even if you break even in terms of how much hp/power you have left after a fight, going offensive still ends those fights faster and allows you to pack more of them into a set period of time.  That does not apply with a group.  Ideally, in a 6 man group there is one (1) person taking all the damage and six (6) people doing damage.  So you as a tank are doing maybe a sixth of the group's damage (probably less).  Increasing your personal damage by say 10% for a 5% increase in damage taken (totally made up numbers) actually works out to increasing your group's DPS by 1.67% while still increasing your group's damage taken by 5%.  And those numbers are very unrealistically favorable. That said, there are times I tank with a 2 hander and/or in offensive stance.  I do it when the mobs are easy and we have too many healers and not enough damage.  Challenging content demands the shield. 

[Novusod]

Githil@Permafrost wrote: <blockquote>I'm sorry, but if I was a healer in a group where the tank wasn't using a shield I would a) leave the group if not leader, b) ask the tank to put a shield on, or c)kick the tank that refuses to use a shield.  I've been a tank since this game came out.  If you are killing stuff not using a shield and not losing health you need to move to higher level mob's.  And honestly, you will do more damage with a slower 2hd weapon in the long run then dual wielding. </blockquote>What about Monk/Bruiser tanks? They can't even equip a shield do you ask them to leave too?

[hansomepete]

<p>This is why i'm only a backup tank <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>i like my 2hnd weapons too much.</p>

[slashalot]

<p>a simple rule of thumb my L55 wizzy uses for wether or not i root. </p><p>if i can kill it alone without loosing half my health i will skip the root and blast away.</p><p>something simular should work for tanks, if you can kill it alone then dps the mob. otherwise shield it and B*&^h-slap it so it really likes you</p>

[Galithdor]

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>What about Monk/Bruiser tanks? They can't even equip a shield do you ask them to leave too? </blockquote> Those are the only tanks i wouldnt tell to leave my group for not using a shield lol but thats because of a)avoidance b) they are leather tanks so they will take heavy damage no matter what... and c) they seem to do well as tank...since they deal damage and can taunt pretty well.

[Macross_JR]

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>Githil@Permafrost wrote: <blockquote>I'm sorry, but if I was a healer in a group where the tank wasn't using a shield I would a) leave the group if not leader, b) ask the tank to put a shield on, or c)kick the tank that refuses to use a shield.  I've been a tank since this game came out.  If you are killing stuff not using a shield and not losing health you need to move to higher level mob's.  And honestly, you will do more damage with a slower 2hd weapon in the long run then dual wielding. </blockquote>What about Monk/Bruiser tanks? They can't even equip a shield do you ask them to leave too? </blockquote>You might not like what I'm going to say, but I still don't consider brawlers tanks.  Has nothing to do with anyone who plays that class.  My brigand has a taunt and can hold agro too, does that make him a tank? I don't think so.  And besides, brawlers can't equip shields so you comment is null as it has nothing to do with the OP's topic, seeing as he is a plate tank that can use a shield

[Wrapye]

Kinda a special case, but particularly in raid situations, or going against nameds in instances, guardian + tower shield + Tower of Stone can make a big difference.  But even then, that is a combat art that requires a shield, not some inherent ability of the shield itself.  If Tower of Stone required a dagger instead of a shield to be equipped to use it, guardians would be carrying lots of daggers. .

[Trynnus1]

<p><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Something else you guys did not mention is the shield factor - or BLOCK % - Tower shields have a 20% block to them. This means you "on average" do not take 20% of the damage.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: Arial">I use the queynos guard with the block adornment for tanking. Compare this to DPS mode with Pride's edge (fabled 2 hander) with 20% haste on it. I take much less damage with the sword and board on large encounters but I kill slower.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: Arial">As the above two posters have already noted, when its 1 on 1 to a green or blue mob (^^^ even) the 2 hander is a better choice because I do not run OOP. But in a raid as the MT, sword and board all the way because when named are hitting for 5000 - 8000 each that extra 10-20% means 1 or 2 less heals the healers have to get off before the next hit.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: Arial">The other thing the OP is missing is effects of shields - the queynos guard does proc and reflex spell damage - again NO DAMAGE TAKEN.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: Arial">The on thing I will say in the OPs defense is look at the toon's level - the tough stuff does not really start until T7 or you are fighting 3 ^^^ yellow mobs.</span></p>

[Fromingo]

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>Githil@Permafrost wrote: <blockquote>I'm sorry, but if I was a healer in a group where the tank wasn't using a shield I would a) leave the group if not leader, b) ask the tank to put a shield on, or c)kick the tank that refuses to use a shield.  I've been a tank since this game came out.  If you are killing stuff not using a shield and not losing health you need to move to higher level mob's.  And honestly, you will do more damage with a slower 2hd weapon in the long run then dual wielding. </blockquote>What about Monk/Bruiser tanks? They can't even equip a shield do you ask them to leave too? </blockquote> Brawlers basically have a built in round shield to boost their avoidance while still being able to DW or use a 2h.