Level 70 Assassin question

[HuskerFootball]

<p>I was just curious on your guys methods of atatck.  </p><p> Lets say its a Single Target Epic X4...  What is your order of what combat arts? (i.e. Exacting-->Lucky break->Elude-->Scraping Blow-->Flowing Wound-->Freezing Strike-->Masked Attack-->Killing Blade etc etc etc...)  Assume all timers are done and all CA's are up.  Was wondering generally what order you do your CA's if its your basic all out attack for max DPS on a single target X4 Raid Mob.</p><p>Am hoping some info from some good Assassins will help me raise DPS <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Thanks in advance!</p>

[Jayad]

Pretty simple. Start invis and use cloaked assault. debuff the mob. Cast your temp buffs if you're going to use them. Cast masked attack + all your dots, then cast concealment and run all your backstabs. Repeat.

[-=Hoss=-]

2 quick questions.  1.  Why do you do masked attack and then dots?  doesn't masked attack throw you into invis?  Why not do a backstab like eviscerate right after? 2.  I've never been able to get concealment to work properly.  I cast it and then just wind up waiting the entire time for the conceal to kick in.  Usually I'm lucky if i can get in 2 backstabs.  Whats the trick? Here's what i do, though I'm not an uber assassin, so I'm posting this for comments as much as anything else.  Cloaked assault (aoe dot), poison debuff, MM, then I run an HO with constriction and scraping blow.  Then the the two wounding dots.  Then poison combination and crippling strike and maybe freezing strike if poison combo isn't available yet.  then I hit masked attack and the best backtab i have up (but if its decap, I usually use elude first) and by then the debuffs and dots start coming available again, so i repeat.  Basically, I concentrate on keeping those bleeding abilities and MM up first and foremost because each one takes 1% of the mobs health away.  the debuffs, (esp the poison one) are second most important, and I work in the straight out damage arts in between those.  Oh yeah, and whenever possible, I cast intoxication right before the fight just before i start sneaking.  -t

[Recca[BK]]

you need to use a CA to start the invis after concelment. waiting for autoattack to hit can feel like an eternity when you only have 7 sec. the best thing i have found is to you crippling strike right after conceal. with the debuff on its less likely your backstab will miss so you wont mess up conceal. my concealment combo is killing(if up) evicerate, juglar, decap (if up), cloaked then slaughter. its really easy to get off with repeated stabbing but that isnt needed. and since cripple, evicerate, juglar and slaughter have the same recast they always go together. i always do masked attack with puncture right before concealment, then once concealment is over its just about time to hit masked/puncture again.

[steelbadger]

My starter chain tends to be: Stealthed on pull>>Cloaked Assault>>Malignant Mark>>Enmesh>>Constriction>>Exacting>>Scraping Blow>>Deadly Wound>>Elude>>Masked Attack>>Puncture Blade. While Exacting is up I spam my debuffs, dots and the masked attack-puncture blade combo. If Dispatch is called: Elude>>Concealment>>Crippling Strike>>Killing Blade>>Jugular>>Eviscerate>>Decapitate>>Slaughtersault>>Surveillance>>Cloaked Assault. During normal fighting I just hit everything as and when they come up(with the exception of my backstabs) If a backstab misses I'll hit Getaway then continue my chain.

[-=Hoss=-]

This is interesting, two people said they use puncture blade regularly.  Its probably my least used attack.  I basically only use it if nothing else is available.  If I remember right, I have 3 or 4 attacks that do as much damage and do not require stealth (freezing strike, crippling strike, sinister strike, and maybe contrieved weapon), though admittedly they have pretty long re-use timers.  So, what gives, why do yall like puncture blade so much?  I'll try using a regular CA right after concealment, but I'm not sure crippling strike is a good choice for me.  Its tough to get in the exact spot you seem to need to be in for that to be available.  In fact, I try to throw it early in the fight to check my positioning.  -t

[Lord Montague]

-=Hoss=- wrote: <blockquote>This is interesting, two people said they use puncture blade regularly.  Its probably my least used attack.  I basically only use it if nothing else is available.  If I remember right, I have 3 or 4 attacks that do as much damage and do not require stealth (freezing strike, crippling strike, sinister strike, and maybe contrieved weapon), though admittedly they have pretty long re-use timers.  So, what gives, why do yall like puncture blade so much?  </blockquote> Because it's a very short reuse and its timer lines up nicely with Masked Attack.  Put exacting on top of that and it's a very effective combination you can pop off quite a few times.  It's much like the DoTs...they might not seem like much but they add up quickly.

[Recca[BK]]

so your theory is say cripple does 3k dmg on a raid, while puncute does 1500, you wont use puncture regularly? wow just wow. how about you look at dmg vs recast. in 1 min you get 1 cripple so 3k in a 1 min fight you get 6 puncture thats 1500x 6 = 9000 there you have it. and posisition come on its not to difficult to find the mobs butt, unless aggro is outta control. and its not like i wait 40 sec to do my cripple conceal combo that usually goes off as when dispatch does like steel ssaid. that happens about 5 sec into a fight. just enoug time to get dots and  mark off.

[-=Hoss=-]

You must have misunderstood me.  Its not as if puncture blade isn't on my hot bar.  I just wind up not using it very often because its so low damage.  I pretty much throw everything else, and if puncture is the only thing left available, I throw it too.  But since i need masked attack, surveil, or concealment to set it up, if one of those isn't available, it winds up not getting thrown even in that case.  i gotta wonder which higher damage combat arts you have to sacrifice to use that puncture blade everytime it becomes available.  Positioning can be quite difficult in a raid.  i see butts, but i can't tell the mobs butt from the other scouts butts from the fighters butts, because everyone wants to be behind the mob, even though, as far as i know, assassins are the only ones who HAVE to be directly behind to fire off any of our attacks, and thats only for crippling strike.  Getting into 'flanking or behind' is no problem.  Add into the mix that I'm usually trying to look down into the floor with the game on its lowest graphics settings because raiding causes massive lag, and it does sometimes get a little bit difficult to figure out which of the 13+ meleeing butts belongs to the mob.  In addition to that, once the fight starts, I sometimes have trouble fine tuning my position.  I try to sidestep a foot to one side, and i go a yard.  So, if i dont manage to run into the right position at the beginning of the fight when i'm having a lag spike like that, i just gotta accept the fact that i cannot use crippling strike that time around.  Oh yeah, and the dispatch/rake/devitalize combo is always going off, those seem to have a pretty short recast.  So, its not like its the end of the world if you miss one.  Anyway, I didn't post here to flame or get flamed.  I'm trying to figure out how to play my class better.  I'm not uber or leet like you probably are, but I'm trying to be.  So, getting back to the puncture blade, are you seriously using that combo everytime as soon as it becomes available?  I used to do that when i was like level 40 or 50, but even then, I used whichever highest dmg backstab was available, not the lowest.  Now, I work all other attacks in between the debuffs and dots.  I don't notice any other assassins I play with going into stealth every 10 seconds.  Though its possible, I'm going to start asking them how often they use those 2 attacks.  Also, why puncture everytime?  90% of the time when i use masked attack, i follow it up with evicerate.  If thats not available, I probably use jugular, or maybe killing blade (though i usually try to save decap and killing blade for when concealment is active. ).  I really do appreciate the input. and I'm willing to try anything as long as i understand it.  I just don't understand the reasoning here yet, or maybe i don't understand how yall play.  -t oh, and another thing recca, i  used the CA right after concealment tonight and it worked a heck of a lot better.  On the ranged fights where i was jousting, i'd hit conceal, then contrieved weapon while i ran in, and then generally managed to get off all my backstabs except sometimes puncture blade, and if i didn't ge that one, I'd do a masked attack / puncture blade combo and run back out again.  Thanks for the tip. 

[Jayad]

Well the playstyle for assassins is definately unloading all your damage all the time. I can't think of anything you wouldn't use in like the first 20-25 seconds, allowing timing with dispatch/COB. Puncture blade and masked attack have very short recast timers. All your other stealth/backstab attacks should be down after the first concealment chain early in the fight. Then masked/puncture refreshes a few times before the others are up again. With repeated stabbing it's possible to get every backstab and some of the AOE attacks off in a single concealment, which is a good idea in combination with COB or dispatch. After 15 or 20 seconds in fact I usually am just casting stuff which comes back up, until concealment refreshes.

[Lord Montague]

-=Hoss=- wrote: <blockquote>I really do appreciate the input. and I'm willing to try anything as long as i understand it.  I just don't understand the reasoning here yet, or maybe i don't understand how yall play.  </blockquote> It's really just a question of what does more damage in the long run vs. what does the quickest burst of damage in the shortest period of time.  Differentiating the two allows you to mix up the CA's differently under varying circumstance to give you a bit more effectiveness overall.  It's very analogous to the sprint vs. the marathon runner.

[-=Hoss=-]

OK jayad, still trying to get a grasp on how you do things.  Starter chains are one thing, but there's usually a lot of fight left after that starter chain.  So, going back to the starter chain you posted, if you don't mind.  It looks pretty close to mine (except for the masked attack, which for the sake of this post I'll assume wasn't supposed to be there, because i didn't see an answer to my question about it) up till you finish the dots.  I've always been afraid to use the concealment chain too early in the fight, but I'll give it a shot.  So once you do concealment, I'm guessing you use debuffs and dots as they come available, then do the masked/puncture as soon as you can?  Anytime the dots, debuffs, and masked attack aren't available yet, then you use things like freezing strike?  Is that the general philosophy?  Or do you not worry about the dots and debuffs after the initial starter chain?  Also, I would think that whenever masked attack is available, you'd use the highest damage backstab with it, so puncture blade would really only be used like 1/2 or 2/3 of the time?  Or do you just use surveil when one of the higher damage backstabs comes back? On a somewhat related note.  I've never noticed the relationship between the duration of our dots and debuffs, and the recast times.  If the duration is longer than the recast, i might be wasting time and power keeping those up.  Guess I'll have to check thatnext time I am in game -t

[Lord Montague]

-=Hoss=- wrote: <blockquote>On a somewhat related note.  I've never noticed the relationship between the duration of our dots and debuffs, and the recast times.  If the duration is longer than the recast, i might be wasting time and power keeping those up.  Guess I'll have to check thatnext time I am in game </blockquote><p>This might help put it into perspective some (the ones I can think of at any rate, not counting any abilities from Achievements) </p><p><b>Debuffs</b></p><p>Constriction:  Duration 36 sec, Recast 20 sec Enmesh: Duration 24 sec, Recast 20 sec Crippling Strike: Duration 72 sec, Recast 60 sec</p><p><b>DoTs</b></p><p>Deadly Wound: Duration 24 sec, Recast 20 sec Flowing Wound: Duration 24 sec, Recast 30 sec Scraping Blow: Duration 12 sec, Recast 10 sec Cloaked Assault: Duration 12 sec, Recast 30 sec</p>

[khufure]

This is how I usually do it.  Let's assume its not an AE mob. 1.) Go into fight stealthed. 2.) cloaked assault 3.) assassin's mark 4.) DOTs 5.) debuffs + elude if aggro is a concern.  (only use surveillance if you are really screwed in aggro) . 6.) masked attack & puncture 7.) other CAs 8.) Concealment & all the backstabs once brigand announces debuffs are up. Actually I think its probably better to have a masked attack & puncture in ASAP.  Maybe I'll change this setup so there's an extra masked+puncture combo right between 2 and 3. Puncture is a significant part of zone dps.  Not many things are higher than puncture plade.  First is piercing, 22-30% unless I have illusionary arm.  Then mark and hemotoxin are right around the 9-12% mark each.  Then cloaked assault and puncture blade in the 6-8% mark each.  The DOTs and other CA are in the 3-5% mark. Note : I use caustic poison if I don't have an illusionist or a dirge.

[Jayad]

-=Hoss=- wrote: <blockquote>OK jayad, still trying to get a grasp on how you do things.  Starter chains are one thing, but there's usually a lot of fight left after that starter chain.  So, going back to the starter chain you posted, if you don't mind.  It looks pretty close to mine (except for the masked attack, which for the sake of this post I'll assume wasn't supposed to be there, because i didn't see an answer to my question about it) up till you finish the dots.  I've always been afraid to use the concealment chain too early in the fight, but I'll give it a shot.  So once you do concealment, I'm guessing you use debuffs and dots as they come available, then do the masked/puncture as soon as you can?  Anytime the dots, debuffs, and masked attack aren't available yet, then you use things like freezing strike?  Is that the general philosophy?  Or do you not worry about the dots and debuffs after the initial starter chain?  Also, I would think that whenever masked attack is available, you'd use the highest damage backstab with it, so puncture blade would really only be used like 1/2 or 2/3 of the time?  Or do you just use surveil when one of the higher damage backstabs comes back? On a somewhat related note.  I've never noticed the relationship between the duration of our dots and debuffs, and the recast times.  If the duration is longer than the recast, i might be wasting time and power keeping those up.  Guess I'll have to check thatnext time I am in game -t </blockquote><p>I use concealment after debuffs, buffs and dots/melee.  Basically it's the backstab/invis attacks.  After that I just hit stuff as it comes up.  Of course sometimes they're connected, like masked attack/puncture.  If something is still up (duration > recast), then you might hold off on it.  </p><p>Surveil is a very slow skill.  I usually only use it if I have a big stealth attack to make up for its cast time, or if I need to lose aggro.  </p><p>Freezing strike and crippling strike both have large damage amounts associated with them, so I really tend to just use them as melee attacks which have a bonus effect.  </p><p>Here is a zone damage spread to give you an idea:</p><p><img src="http://www.xney.com/eq2/assassin-dps.jpg" border="0"> </p><p>Hope that helps.</p>

[Recca[BK]]

i have masked attack marcoed with puncture. there is a rare time i will use masked then somethig else but that is very rare. all of your stealth attacks minus puncture can and should be use while concealemt it running. conceal = 1 min killing blade = 2 min (every other conceal killing is up) evicerate = 1 min (every conceal its up) juglar = 1 min (every conceal its up) slaughter = 1 min (every conceal its up) claoked = 24 sec ( this is always up for conceal, and i use getaway or surveil inbetween conceals) decap = its up at some point [Removed for Content] long recasts. so there ya go if using conceal properly (pending no stealth breaks) you will never have to use masked attack to use them. that leaves it free for only puncture or cloaked with since surveil has near the same recast i use that for cloaked. also once you start find out how long the fights are taking you should imo hit finsihing blow at the very start for a free 2k then have it back up for the final 20%. on min fights i generally hit exacting start stealthed use cloaked then hit finsihing fairly soon. dispatch has a 1 min timer, so if you hit it right the first time your backstabs wont miss it. when using conceal aim to use slaughter as your last attack as its the longest casting, would waste too much time using it at the begining. sorry for all the random lines, its late for me and my mind is jumping around as s type.

[Kaeth]

<p>Its worth installing a parser like ACT and study it after a raid. How can you improve if you don't know where your damage is coming from. As said before masked/puncture combo, because of its relative short recast, can be used a lot and it adds up on a zone parse. Also cloaked assault is responsible for a lot of damage, use it as often as you can.</p><p>If you have trouble positioning, play around with target settings (target ring, mob highlight etc.) so you have a better view of the mob.</p>

[-=Hoss=-]

That's all interesting.  Tons of great info here.  Thank you all.  Next time i get a chance to raid, I've got some things to try.  I've already warned the tanks and healers i'm going to see if i can steal aggro.  I don't know why it never occurred to me to use the concealment chain more than once in a fight.  I guess its because i was lvl 70 before i knew about it and picked it up.  Same with honed reflexes, and i dont use that enough either.  Questions on that chart you posted jayad.  What are agonizing pain, noxious venom, abomination anhilation, seed of fire, fae fires, blooming flames, hollow bludgeon, counterbalance, and neurotoxin? I actually get some damage from fae fires too, but i have no clue where it comes from.  I'm assuming some of those are procs from gear or weapons, but a couple of them look like spells. 

[Siclone]

<cite>Kaeth wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Its worth installing a parser like ACT and study it after a raid. How can you improve if you don't know where your damage is coming from. As said before masked/puncture combo, because of its relative short recast, can be used a lot and it adds up on a zone parse. Also cloaked assault is responsible for a lot of damage, use it as often as you can.</p><p>If you have trouble positioning, play around with target settings (target ring, mob highlight etc.) so you have a better view of the mob.</p></blockquote> Target ring, mob highlight?....This is my issue here, not being able to see well in a mob of people which way the mob is facing or where it is, I waste to much time, I guess this is under options then? somewhere??

[Jayad]

<p>"What are agonizing pain, noxious venom, abomination anhilation, seed of fire, fae fires, blooming flames, hollow bludgeon, counterbalance, and neurotoxin?"</p><p> Agonizing pain is the proc from Mark, which is a major part of our dps.  The others are various kinds of procs either from buffs, spells, or gear.</p>

[judged_one]

<cite>Jayad wrote:</cite><blockquote>-=Hoss=- wrote: <blockquote>OK jayad, still trying to get a grasp on how you do things.  Starter chains are one thing, but there's usually a lot of fight left after that starter chain.  So, going back to the starter chain you posted, if you don't mind.  It looks pretty close to mine (except for the masked attack, which for the sake of this post I'll assume wasn't supposed to be there, because i didn't see an answer to my question about it) up till you finish the dots.  I've always been afraid to use the concealment chain too early in the fight, but I'll give it a shot.  So once you do concealment, I'm guessing you use debuffs and dots as they come available, then do the masked/puncture as soon as you can?  Anytime the dots, debuffs, and masked attack aren't available yet, then you use things like freezing strike?  Is that the general philosophy?  Or do you not worry about the dots and debuffs after the initial starter chain?  Also, I would think that whenever masked attack is available, you'd use the highest damage backstab with it, so puncture blade would really only be used like 1/2 or 2/3 of the time?  Or do you just use surveil when one of the higher damage backstabs comes back? On a somewhat related note.  I've never noticed the relationship between the duration of our dots and debuffs, and the recast times.  If the duration is longer than the recast, i might be wasting time and power keeping those up.  Guess I'll have to check thatnext time I am in game -t </blockquote><p>I use concealment after debuffs, buffs and dots/melee.  Basically it's the backstab/invis attacks.  After that I just hit stuff as it comes up.  Of course sometimes they're connected, like masked attack/puncture.  If something is still up (duration > recast), then you might hold off on it.  </p><p>Surveil is a very slow skill.  I usually only use it if I have a big stealth attack to make up for its cast time, or if I need to lose aggro.  </p><p>Freezing strike and crippling strike both have large damage amounts associated with them, so I really tend to just use them as melee attacks which have a bonus effect.  </p><p>Here is a zone damage spread to give you an idea:</p><p><img src="http://www.xney.com/eq2/assassin-dps.jpg" border="0"> </p><p>Hope that helps.</p></blockquote>If you are chaining your CA right you should have a much higher percentage in Cloaked Assault, and Finishblow Here is the top 5 things you should worry about 1.) Melee Damage - To max this make sure your Mod is as high as possible, also make sure swindler luck is always on. Crit, with a Dirge you should be sitting at 35-40% Crit chances 2.) Mark, make sure you get this on as soon as possible, and as often as possible. Doesnt hurt to time it with Iceslush or PoM or Illz int buff etc pending on your group set up. 3.) Poison, switch out between hemo and caustic/seedling. If the fight is 45 sec or less, use the direct DD poison, if it is a named fight or multi tageted fight try using hemo. With Cloacked and slaughtersault + stacking Dot, you should have multiple hemo running.  4.) Finishing Blow, use it early and make sure you still catch the 20%. (Unconfirmed) If you are able to time it between 21-20% you will get a double hit on both damage. It worked a while ago. 5.)C.Assault, Make sure you are hitting all the multi mob, one little trick I use is be on top of the MT the moment you invis and fire your C.Assault off. 

[Jayad]

Well this was in MMIS, so cloaked assault and finishing blow are lower than they would be in other zones due to the mobs. At that point I had a 2200 zone parse from about a 23k raid zone parse. I'll post a parse from a diff zone where the mobs are a little faster and you'll see the cloaked & finishing blow go up, when we do it.

[-=Hoss=-]

<p>What is mod?  And how do i get it high?</p><p>And what is caustic/seedling?</p><p>-t</p>

[Jayad]

Not sure what mod is. caustic/seedling is a direct dmg poison, as opposed to hemotoxin DOT type.

[Chij]

-=Hoss=- wrote: <blockquote><p>What is mod?  And how do i get it high?</p><p>And what is caustic/seedling?</p><p>-t</p></blockquote>Think 'mod' here means modifer... meaning crit% chance

[Terq]

<p>On a related note, how do you guys generally get into stealth for your concealment chain?  Casting Surveilance, and then Concealment seems to take me out of stealth, so that I have to use another CA to get back into stealth.  has anyone else noticed this?</p><p>Right now, following a dispatch, I cast Crippling then Concealment.  I am using Freezing strike to get into stealth (since it also has a 1 min recast), followed by the typical backstab chain.  However, I am not sure that this is the best way to go about things.  </p><p>Thoughts?</p>

[Jayad]

I have a CA ready to cast after I cast concealment. Often times I used masked attack, or poison combination.

[Terq]

<cite>Jayad wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have a CA ready to cast after I cast concealment. Often times I used masked attack, or poison combination.</blockquote><p> So basically the same thing that I have been doing.  I  didn't know if there was a way that you could enter stealth before casting concealment.  </p><p> Why would you use masked attack?  That would throw off your masked attack/ punch blade combo.  </p>

[Jayad]

Because I can cast puncture blade during concealment. I prefer to use something else, though, and keep masked attack as a way to get back instealth if something misses or I get de-invisssed.

[-=Hoss=-]

<p>I would think the ideal CA to start the concealment chain would be the fastest one you have available.  Isn't scraping blow our shortest cast time?</p><p>-t</p>

[Jayad]

It doesn't really matter how you get into invis as long as you cast something right away. A ll of the single target CAs are .5s cast

[seigwahrheit]

Seirrah@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote>-=Hoss=- wrote: <blockquote>On a somewhat related note.  I've never noticed the relationship between the duration of our dots and debuffs, and the recast times.  If the duration is longer than the recast, i might be wasting time and power keeping those up.  Guess I'll have to check thatnext time I am in game </blockquote><p>This might help put it into perspective some (the ones I can think of at any rate, not counting any abilities from Achievements) </p><p><b>Debuffs</b></p><p>Constriction:  Duration 36 sec, Recast 20 sec Enmesh: Duration 24 sec, Recast 20 sec Crippling Strike: Duration 72 sec, Recast 60 sec</p><p><b>DoTs</b></p><p>Deadly Wound: Duration 24 sec, Recast 20 sec Flowing Wound: Duration 24 sec, Recast 30 sec Scraping Blow: Duration 12 sec, Recast 10 sec Cloaked Assault: Duration 12 sec, Recast 30 sec</p></blockquote><p>Malignant Mark is also considered a DoT if your using the EoF endline for 5% maxhealth DoT on target...</p><p>i was pleasantly surprised to find </p>

[-=Hoss=-]

I don't believe excessive bleeding is a dot.  Is that what you are saying?  -t