Regen : The most pointless and poorly itemised item effect?

[TuinalOfTheNexus]

<p>It's funny that, thinking back to EQ1, items with regen were amongst the most highly-prized and valuable drops. The Iksar Scale BP, or even better the legendary Fungi Tunic (well overdue a heritage quest), were awesome. The reason being, of course, that they were a substantial upgrade, and that out-of-combat regen didn't exist.</p><p>In EQ2, though, I find myself sighing every time my tank loots an item with this pointless effect. The most recent was the Guantlets of Jaw Displacement. Asides from the fact the misspelt name on the item shows how much effort was put into designing them, it baffles me that this worthless effect continues to persist on EoF items. If I gear purely for regen I get about 30 points of regen off 5 fabled items. That's 30hp every 6 seconds, or a colossal 5hp/sec. When the mobs are hitting for 2000/sec, you'll forgive me if I see this effect as worthless.</p><p>What's strange is it seems considered identical to flowing thought. If two near-identical items drop off the same mob, one for casters and one for tanks, you can guarantee FT8 on the caster item will be mirrored with regen 8 on the tank item. Take the Malkonis' head rewards: Caster item with FT, tank item with regen. Yet FT is unquestionably way, way more valuable to any class. I'd trade regen off any of my items for the same FT any day. In fact, tank items with FT are ridiculously rare, despite the fact we use power just as readily as any other class.</p><p>Would it be unbalancing to increase item regen by a factor of 10? Even then 300hp healed every 6 seconds isn't exactly godlike, particularly in a raid (which is what you'd need to do to get this kind of item regen). Failing that converting it all to flowing thought would make my Guardian happy, or at least something - anything - to make this effect less pointless needs to be done.</p>

[Kaleyen]

Or just increase the mit on them and they'd be a pretty good piece of plate gear.

[Quda]

<p>And why do most FT and Regen items have stats like a level 10 treasured?</p><p>Yea, a fabled chest peice with regen 3, 4str?(is there a zero missing?) and 400 mit?  I thank the group and vendor it or god fodder when i get home.</p>

[valkyrja]

My guess would be, that when designing armor, they get a certain amount of "points" to put into each piece.  For instance, maybe a piece gets 10 points to spend. FT3 = 5 points 10pts of stats = 1 point 100 mit = 1 point Obviously these are made up, but I imagine they have a simple guide like this to refer to...  Based on how much they seem to value FT, I believe that they haven't updated the rules since T5, where FT3 was actually a reasonable benefit. (This is my ideas on KoS loot) Thankfully, with EoF this seems to have been mostly resolved, as I don't see a ton of FT/Regen anymore.

[Mantell]

<p>Agree completely that Regen is useless. I did my own math on that some time ago and decided that no amount of regen would make a difference in my survivability.</p><p>But I also find that FT items do nothing to my regen. In tank gear I have 4455 power. I can scrape together some FT items, and let's assume the regen cap isn't an issue, to get to FT30. That's 300 power a minute. But when I do that my max power is going to be less because my stats are lower and the FT items don't add as much to power. So my power will be more like 3900. </p><p>When I am in a group setting a fight lasts 2 minutes tops, 600 extra power. </p><p>So I can get the extra 600 power over two minutes or I can just start out with 500+ more power to begin with.</p><p>And the gear I have to wear to get that power is going to make me much less effective, it's going to make the fights longer and it's going to make the whole group spend more power on healing and spells. </p>

[Kaleyen]

<img src="http://eq2.xanadu-community.com/images/loot/1476.jpg" border="0"> I mean they're not bad, they just need more mit and mana to be boosted up to at least 100.  Compare it to the Paladin Relic below and the plate gauntlets from DT.  The relic mit has been changed from 549 to 521...yeah 521 mitigation on Relic and these gloves from Treyloth are at 490... <img src="http://eq2.xanadu-community.com/images/loot/552.jpg" border="0"> Then here are the guants from DT which completely make the Jaw gaunts look like T6 mastercrafted :p  Seriously, the Jaw gaunts need a tune up.  If a guild can kill Treyloth then they can take down AD without blinking, making loot appropriate to the difficulty of the encounter would really be nice. <img src="http://eq2.xanadu-community.com/images/loot/1130.jpg" border="0"> ~Edit~ Spelling > Me

[Cathars]

<cite>Mantell wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Agree completely that Regen is useless. I did my own math on that some time ago and decided that no amount of regen would make a difference in my survivability.</p><p>But I also find that FT items do nothing to my regen. In tank gear I have 4455 power. I can scrape together some FT items, and let's assume the regen cap isn't an issue, to get to FT30. That's 300 power a minute. But when I do that my max power is going to be less because my stats are lower and the FT items don't add as much to power. So my power will be more like 3900. </p><p>When I am in a group setting a fight lasts 2 minutes tops, 600 extra power. </p><p>So I can get the extra 600 power over two minutes or I can just start out with 500+ more power to begin with.</p><p>And the gear I have to wear to get that power is going to make me much less effective, it's going to make the fights longer and it's going to make the whole group spend more power on healing and spells. </p></blockquote>Correct on FT.  Most of the items I keep bagged with FT on them work out to becoming more effective with respect to power pool compared to what I normally wear after about 1-1.5 minutes of fighting.  Its very situational and Im pretty sure its intended to be that way.  Take them out for the long boss fights.  Additionally, some people might prefer it on quick trash fights too and prefer a smaller power pool and faster regen, compared to a large pool they never come close to using up.

[Kaleyen]

Actually changing this from regen to FT would be an improvement too...along with a mitigation boost.

[TheBu]

<p>I agree they need to bump it up... </p><p>I have  a lvl 30 ring with ft7..    sup with the lvl 60-70 stuff... i do like the belt out of unrest tho. But with the cap of power regen it may not be a big deal But for health. . i would think they might think of bumping it up... </p>

[Krooner]

<p>They need to get away from static numbers and go to percents.</p><p>Such as for the item listed in this thread.</p><p>Regen 6 is nothing not even in a long fight.</p><p>If these items were to be scaled such for any tier then it would be an awsome upgrade.  One restriction I would put on it is that it cant be grey to the person wearing it.</p><p>Treasured  1%</p><p>Legendary & mastercrafted 3% </p><p>Normal Raid zone fabled 4%</p><p>Top end contested and or mythical 6%</p><p>Tier 5 toon with 3K HP with a legendary item would get back 90 per tick.</p><p>Does'nt  this sound more like the return ratio we should have for the kind of system in place now ?</p>

[Legiax]

<p>If your doing it as a%, then Zerkers become a bit silly. Your looking at our regen buffs giving like... 8% to the entire grp to be in line with loot bonuses... over powered =/</p><p>E.g. typical regen item gives 6 or so.... zerkers buff grps for 82 with no AA's put into it, and with our solo buff, most zerkers are sitting at about 143 incombat health regen. This would need to be scaled with the armour abilities to make it worth having.</p>

[Krooner]

<p> No Im not talking about transferring everything to a percent system.  Group buffs and such would remain the same.  Im talking about just the effects on weapons and gear.  It doesnt even have to be full percents.  The point of the percent system is to set the level of return based on the persons stats rather than a flat low number that does anyone any good.  If the gear gives a 2% regen rate and a toon has 1000 HP then thats gonna give him 20 per tick.  Now lets say he has a temp buff or gets a tem buff that ups his HP to 1500.  Then his return for that time is going to be 30 per tick.  Zerkers get nice group regen buffs.  And yes they would benifit from this system, but so would everyone else.  </p>

[Arthik]

Liluk, from what I've seen (I could be wrong), for plate fighter relic there's one piece that's 521 mit, and the rest (with the exception of the breastplate and legs) are 477. For Paladins it's the gloves. For SKs it's the boots. For Guardians it's the helmet, and for 'Zerks it's the gussets.

[Lleinen]

<p>Only read the title, but I also believe +spell dmg (anything below 100) is basically worthless and craptastic as well</p><p>(see coercer (7) piece)</p>

[Kaleyen]

Arthik@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>Liluk, from what I've seen (I could be wrong), for plate fighter relic there's one piece that's 521 mit, and the rest (with the exception of the breastplate and legs) are 477. For Paladins it's the gloves. For SKs it's the boots. For Guardians it's the helmet, and for 'Zerks it's the gussets. </blockquote>That is true, but why should KoS relic have more mit then EoF fabled when to get the relic all you have to do is a Labs trash run while these Guants are a tad harder to obtain. See my point?

[Pins]

Liluk@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>Arthik@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>Liluk, from what I've seen (I could be wrong), for plate fighter relic there's one piece that's 521 mit, and the rest (with the exception of the breastplate and legs) are 477. For Paladins it's the gloves. For SKs it's the boots. For Guardians it's the helmet, and for 'Zerks it's the gussets. </blockquote>That is true, but why should KoS relic have more mit then EoF fabled when to get the relic all you have to do is a Labs trash run while these Guants are a tad harder to obtain. See my point? </blockquote>Because KoS -> EoF item progression is broken due to KoS being developed with a different combat system designed.  Not much you can do but deal with it.

[Kaleyen]

Yeah I know it's borked, but here's an item that could actually be decent for plate fighters before they get their EoF fabled set if they just up'd the mitigation on them.

[Arthik]

Liluk@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>Arthik@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>Liluk, from what I've seen (I could be wrong), for plate fighter relic there's one piece that's 521 mit, and the rest (with the exception of the breastplate and legs) are 477. For Paladins it's the gloves. For SKs it's the boots. For Guardians it's the helmet, and for 'Zerks it's the gussets. </blockquote>That is true, but why should KoS relic have more mit then EoF fabled when to get the relic all you have to do is a Labs trash run while these Guants are a tad harder to obtain. See my point? </blockquote> Difficulty is relative. For instance, my guild has been roaming around KoS for quite some time now, yet we haven't seen relic plate legs drop in over 3 months. There's no other way to get them, either.

[Kaleyen]

The point I'm trying to make here is that the mobs you kill to get the relic < the mobs you need to kill to get the gauntlets in question.

[Kaleyen]

And since I'm mostly comparing these to KoS fighter relic... **Taken from Xanadu, Mit values might have changed Zerker: 477 Mit, 20 STA, 25 AGI, 110 HP/Mana, 630 Mental, 420 Divine, 8 Slashing Guard: 502 Mit, 20 STA, 25 AGI, 110HP/Mana, 770 Mental, 490 Divine, 8 Slashing SK: 477 Mit, 20 STA, 25 AGI, 110HP/110Mana, 630 Mental, 420 Divine, 8 Slashing Since 6 regen is just pointless, up the Mit on the Jaw guants to over 500 and slap a bit more mana on it and then these will be a good middle ground between KoS relic and the EoF fabled set.

[EvilIguana9]

Regen isn't completely worthless, but it is weighted way too high in value when item attributes are assigned.  Everyone uses power, and everyone gets far more value from X power regen than X hp regen, yet the game seems to think they are equal.  If you wanted to balance them, it should be at LEAST 5 hps to every 1 point of power to break even.  Very simply, Regeneration I should be 5 hps/tick, Regen V should be 25/tick, and so on and so forth, and Regen I should have the same point value on an item as Flowing Thought I.  That would go a long way towards making regeneration a useful or even desirable attribute.  The problem exists because hps are a much more fluid commodity than power is.  During any given fight, a tank loses and has replenished many times his maximum in health.  For every point of power expended, a healer can replenish probably 5 to 10 times that many points of health.  Even for a tank that has no ability to heal himself, the ability to get off an extra taunt or push out a bit more damage is more valuable than a couple of hps healed every round.  The hp regen has to be significant for it to have any noticeable impact on a fight. 

[Kaleyen]

I'm still pushing for a mit upgrade on these things :p

[Krokous]

yup dont let this thread to fade... devs should "upgrade" regen stuff. shouldnt be hard or time consuming to boost regen ability

[rubels]

<p>Heheh I agree those gauntlets need to be upgraded. The bottom line as stated above is progression. There is no progression just Tier 7 gear. Thats the way the casuals wanted it honestly .... hence for the cry for T8.</p><p>Regen and FT in group and raid set up is pointless. In all honesty if your going to be worried about it for specific encounters more then likely you will build your groups to include batterys.</p><p>The only use for regen gear and ft is if solo and if thats the case. I agree with the base % regen over a number. Ie. FT 1 = 1 % flowing thought , Regen 1 = 1 % regen and so on.</p><p>- Krovax</p>