2 Defilers in same raid... Looking for input.

[TuHideous]

<p>I was going to post this in the Defiler forum, but I would really like to get input from more then the other defilers out there. </p><p>I have been dealing with this issue myself recently and came here to get a few opinions on the matter. </p><p>Here's my background before I give my perspective.</p><p>I have a 70 Defiler 75AA that has been my main since launch just about. I also have a 70 Zerker 81AA(mostly fabled - KoS), 70 Conjy 100AA(mainly Legendary mostly mastered), and I'm bringing up a swashy that is currently 65 82AA. So I am well rounded for contributing to any raid situation.</p><p>I joined my current guild under the premise that my defiler would be my raid main. Since then the raid main defiler that was there before me has returned from Vanguard. No big deal, I can adjust and bring an alt instead. Well, recently we were getting ready to raid Freethinkers and we were a little short on healers, I was asked to bring my defiler, so OK, until the other defiler logs in and says he's coming. Now, we have 2 defilers in the same raid. </p><p>IMO 2 defilers in the same raid is a waste. After reviewing my spells and trying my best to come up with reasoning to have 2 defilers I wasn't able to come up with one.  I read here that some guilds are running 2, one for wards, and one for debuffs. That is absolutely crazy. As the only defiler in a raid, I have plenty of time to get the mobs debuffed and keep up on my wards. Our group ward and single target ward are both fairly long recast, which allows plenty of time for landing all your debuffs. Knowing that wards don't stack, and niether do the same spell debuffs, what is the purpose behind having 2 in the same raid. Seriously, are there defilers out there that are unable to keep up with wards and get thier debuffs off? A defiler and a mystic are great on the same raid, with the only issue coming from overwriting wards, which IMO isn't really a problem since you basically will keep a ward up on your tank all the time, reguardless if it is the mystic's or defilers. I have no doubt that even with 2 defilers in a raid, the raid can still be successfull. But in my case, even short on healers I think the additional dps I can bring from my conjy instead would benifit the raid more then my defiler in a secondary group casting nothing but a group heal and group ward. We all know defilers suck at dps, and since most of our DOTs have a debuff attatched to them, we are losing half of that since the debuffs won't be stacking, so its only the minimal damage that you are gaining.</p>

[Birn]

Well, this is something that you should bring to your raid leader. But, since you are in this situation you could try to come up with some "crazy" AA ideas which are not really best up for healing but maybe can do at least some damage while still be able to protect your group and debuff the mobs.

[Kocia]

<p>Bringing a defiler if not in an MT group is already iffy, bringing two is way suboptimal.</p><p>And as an aside on a guild political note:  it seems your GL thinks very high of their previous defiler.  You're the newcomer double and it's a really bad position to be in, I've been there before.  That dude logs in late and you're getting close to being redundant.  Next thing you know he'll be asking you to drop raid.</p>

[TuHideous]

<cite>Birn wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well, this is something that you should bring to your raid leader. But, since you are in this situation you could try to come up with some "crazy" AA ideas which are not really best up for healing but maybe can do at least some damage while still be able to protect your group and debuff the mobs. </blockquote><p> It was discussed with the raidleader, which was not our normal raid leader. I ended up bringing my conjy to that raid, and it was a succesful raid.</p><p>For me respecing my AA's isn't a viable option, since that would really lower my overall worth as a defiler.</p>

[TuHideous]

<cite>Kocia wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Bringing a defiler if not in an MT group is already iffy, bringing two is way suboptimal.</p><p>And as an aside on a guild political note:  it seems your GL thinks very high of their previous defiler.  You're the newcomer double and it's a really bad position to be in, I've been there before.  That dude logs in late and you're getting close to being redundant.  Next thing you know he'll be asking you to drop raid.</p></blockquote><p> I agree with you on the defiler being optimal in the MT group, but even not in the MT group when, say a mystic is present, I will still top parse heals from outside the MT group. </p><p>I think they may be a little partial to the defiler that has been there longer then me, but that's not even a big deal sine I have so many raidable alts. The other defiler is pretty good, and is slightly better geared than mine, so I might choose him also. </p><p>My real question was weather or not having 2 defilers on the same raid has any value whatsoever considering 90% of our spells will not stack. I'm just looking for a little input from the community on this subject, since I've read in the defiler forums that there are some guilds that roll with 2 defilers, and some that have 2 defilers and 2 mystics. I couldn't believe they do that, but thier reasoning is so one defiler can ward and they other concentrate on debuffs. Man, that would be an easy job, but I think the raid as a whole is losing out on alot by not having more diversity. </p><p>IMO an optimal healer set up for most raids as far as healers would be </p><p>MT group - 1 Defiler 1 Templar 1 Warden </p><p>Secondary Tank group - 1 Mystic 1 Fury/ Warden</p><p>group 3 - Any non shaman healer</p><p>group 4 - Any non shaman healer</p><p>As a side note, my guild is pretty cool with how they deal with these issues, other then planning difficulties for me, they have always been willing to work with me to bring in an alt when the other guy shows up, so it's not like I'm not raiding. It may not always be the toon I feel like playing at the time, but that's up to the raid leader. I'm also more then willing to bring any character that will benifit the raid, so I'm not complaining here about anything, I'm just trying to learn more about raid set ups as a whole I guess. Who knows, maybe after 3 years of playing a defiler there's something I missed about this issue.</p>

[Aandien]

<p>There are some fights, while certaintly doable without 2 defilers -- are easier with 2 defilers (how much easier is certaintly questionable).  Some things you have to offtank mobs >100m away from a mob that is being killed.  With one defiler, you can only debuff one or the other in those situations.  With two you can give tendrils of horror to both tanks and have one defiler at each place to maintain debuffs.</p><p>With debuff stat caps this isn't always necessary -- and generally if you only have one defiler you put him with the offtank to ensure that mob is debuffed to the max -- but, if you have two, it just makes it that much easier.</p><p>For the vast majority of fights where you don't have to do that -- having two defilers (or any two people with wards) its very possible for both (or even 3) to use wards effectively.  Raid mobs generally burn through a ward within 4 seconds of being cast.  Thus, with only 1 ward caster, wards are not active half of the time generally speaking.  With two its better, as long as you coordinate ward casts (you could actually write a program that tracked ward damage on particular targets and told you when to cast to make multiple ward casters perform optimally....), and once you get to three, their value becomes questionable except in the few scenarios where long duration off-tanking far away is required.</p>

[Skylher]

<p>its the mystic who should be complaining LOL considering they would be the one moved to an off tank group.</p><p>two defilers gives you two mt groups essentially, and there are some raid mobs that split or require to tank groups.  If you are at the top of the heal parse from out of the official MT group then those three healers there need some serious talking to. There was only one guild that my defiler out healed the MT group when i wasnt in it and lets just say they were not all that successful,considering there are only two heals we have that can be done from out of group.</p><p>it would be nice to have two defilers in my opinion but i'm biased lol</p><p>however if this other defiler is favored upon just swich your main to one of your other lvl 70 toons eventually they will see the picture that the other one isnt reliable nor as good and that should be the deciding factor on raids, not because he is their friend</p>

[Siclone]

<p>Two defilers may not be the optimal way of setting a raid up but come on, its not that far fetched</p><p>If they are short on healers yea you take two defilers.</p><p>I would rather going into a raid with 5 healers then 4, even if there are two defilers.  </p><p>One heals and cures, one wards and debuffs.  Or what ever fits, the circumstance,  to say it's a waste is just dumb.</p>

[Finora]

<p>Can't say I've any experience with 2 defilers on a raid, but recently we had 2 mystics on a raid. </p><p>We had one in the MT group(me) and one in another group. We compared spells and decided he should use some of his that were castable out of group over me, as he had aa's that enhanced them and I did not.</p><p>I still did my warding (mostly group unless it got hairy) and debuffing, having the second mystic taking care of power hogging bolster and doing single wards and such helped a bit as well as keeping his group cured etc.</p><p>I pulled out some dps (haha yes I know mystic dps) but even in a MT healer situation on yellow mobs with out the final melee ability I was pulling out dps enough to beat the bards. Not super impressive but we had less than a full raid doing content we'd never seen before so I thought it was pretty decent.</p>

[TuHideous]

<p>Thanks to those that have given some thoughts. It looks to me that it is <i>normally</i> not going to be a prime raid set up to have 2 defilers. </p><p>Short on healers, sure I can understand- if short on healers meant that the raid would not be successful without me. This wasn't the case in the situation I was referring to. The raid had 6 healers even without me. This is plenty for FTH IMO. 7 would have been nice, but we were 3 or 4 people short on the raid anyhow, so group 4 only had 2 people in it, my conjy and an SK. Having the extra dps in that case, IMO was better for the raid as a whole. We still got a couple nice drops.</p><p>I'm still not seeing much benifit to 2 defilers. Aandien had about the best situation it could be used effectively. I haven't see that in our raids as of yet, but I'm guessing that a Mystic in the 2nd tank group would be enough to be successful as well, thereby not actually <i>requiring</i> a defiler.</p><p>Siclone - I'm in no means "dumb" for thinking it is a waste in <i>MOST</i> raids to have 2 defilers that cannot stack 90% of thier spells. A mystic, or any other healer would be more effective since there would be much fewer stacking problems. </p><p>I do agree that if the raid only had 4 healers, I would want to bring my defiler even if the other 4 were defilers, we may not be succesful but at least we tried since we had no other choice. I was mainly asking for "typical" raid situations, if there is such a thing as typical.</p><p>The other defiler in my guild is very capable, and slightly better geared then me so there is no hate between us in any way. Like I said I'm just trying to see if there is something I've missed over the past few years playing my defiler, that would justify having 2 defilers in a raid regularly.</p>