Infos wanted: Bruiser vs. Monk [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

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ThyMajesty

04-13-2007, 07:30 AM

Hi there!Had a monk once, but killed him in late 20s. I tried alot, had almost every archetype running to get to know the specific business of each one, in order to find the 6 classes that fit my playstyle. 5 chars i'm sure now with, so there's one slot left. I recently decided to roll a brawler-class again, but now i wonder which one would suit me better, monk oder brawler? I know there are already some threads about the differences, but i want a better breakdown on certain aspects, plus most of them are older, pre-eof-ones... so any help or comments are very appreciated <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> What I want to do with the class:I will mostly solo with him, with occasional grouping, but i do NOT want to tank. Later maybe some raiding, but think this compares to the grouping-case.Now some specific questions on:DMG:is there any difference between them? f.e. one does higher burst-dmg, other does more constant DPS. and what about AA-enhancements?Survivability:again, i think differences here are mostly in class-aa-tree..or is there something else? what about the heals, is there any difference viewing at recast/amount etc.? i heard bruisers get mezz and stuns (duration, recast?) i believe monks do not have, is that true?buffing:Monks bring haste to the grp, do bruisers something equivalent? believe that was dps-boost....and if so, what of both do you consider more useful? anything else different, worth mentioning?Utility:monks have invis, which i consider very useful. yeah, i know, there are totems for that too, but honestly i do not really like the idea of being dependant on an item i must purchase/craft constantly. however, what tool does bruiser get instead? also, is there any difference for FDing? chances, recast, duration----------------------------ok, thats it for nowis there anything else worth mentioning? i think i will come back later with some more questions, before i finally make my decision...but for starters, this is all i thought of thank you very much in advance, for any kind of help on thiskind regards^v^ Thy ^v^

Bobbette

04-13-2007, 08:22 AM

<cite>ThyMajesty wrote:</cite><blockquote>Now some specific questions on:DMG:is there any difference between them? f.e. one does higher burst-dmg, other does more constant DPS. and what about AA-enhancements?I've never played a monk so I can't comment specifically but it's my understanding that ** given all things the same** (gear, CA levels, etc etc) that monks do smaller damage faster and bruisers do larger hits slower and the net total would be equivalent. In practice, with buffs, AAs and such, I do believe that bruisers are capable of higher damage on average. At least this is what I've seen in practice as a bruiser. Survivability:again, i think differences here are mostly in class-aa-tree..or is there something else? what about the heals, is there any difference viewing at recast/amount etc.? i heard bruisers get mezz and stuns (duration, recast?) i believe monks do not have, is that true?AA Class Tree -- Bruisers share the brawler tree so I'll just comment on the bruiser tree. Bruisers get trees that specifically increase damage, and specifically increase tanking. If you do a search of these forums you should find a thread on the EoF trees complete with suggested builds depending upon play style. It's a bit old but I do believe the theory behind the builds still holds true. Mezz & Stuns -- We get both plus a fear. Monks share the mez with us. The stuns are part of our combat arts and I think monks also have CAs with stuns/knockbacks so that's shared too. Heals -- Monks get a slower timer heal that can be cast on themselves or others. Bruisers get a heal on a faster timer but it's self only. buffing:Monks bring haste to the grp, do bruisers something equivalent? believe that was dps-boost....and if so, what of both do you consider more useful? anything else different, worth mentioning?Monks buff group haste. Bruisers buff group dps. Both have a single target evade buff that is useful. Utility:monks have invis, which i consider very useful. yeah, i know, there are totems for that too, but honestly i do not really like the idea of being dependant on an item i must purchase/craft constantly. however, what tool does bruiser get instead? also, is there any difference for FDing? chances, recast, durationInvis -- The monk invis uses power to keep up, so you will need to buy very good drink and power totems (at the lower levels) in order to keep the invis up for more than a few seconds. Most monks just train through mobs and FD on the other side because of the constant power drain of invis. I do agree it can be useful in certain situations but these situations are usually the same ones I will cast my Totem of the Jaguar. In the end, I think the cost of the invisibility will be about the same ... invis totem or power totem for invis. The two nice utilities that monks get (that bruisers don't) is group feign death. It's an ancient teaching skill that's gotten in the 50s. The other is Tsunami. Instead Bruisers get an immunity to crowd control effects (root, stun, mez, etc) and ummm I forget the other. In the end, my opinion is that monks are more oriented to utility (group FD, tsunami pulling, shared heal) and bruisers more oriented to sheer damage and/or tanking. The two class specific AA trees seem to support my opinion (to me). Hope that helps. </blockquote>

tomsky

04-13-2007, 08:24 AM

hi,well i played a monk till lvl 70 then i betrayed due to guild having about 4 monks and no bruisers, so i think i can help you here,The differences ive seen between each class arent that bad tbh, anywayDMG - IVe mostly found that monks, do ALOT more auto attack dmg due to there haste mod's, but in short fights, bruisers with Combat arts seem to do a hell of alot more dmg if they set their minds to it. Survivability - Lets start on heals, Well ... The monk heal consists of about 29-35% master 1 of the lvl 48 heal, This is a single heal but can be on anyone in the group, always useful for grouping. The bruiser heal is self only and heals around 36-42% SELF HEAL, great for soloing as with 5 AA points can be boosted 10% higher <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ...... Ability's .... Monks get Tsunami, 10 secs of absorbing all frontal melee damage, great for desperate times, 5 min recast i think. They also get a ward for about 3k or 4k magic dmg with a 3 min recast. and group FD, always useful. Bruisers on the other hand, get Stone deaf - Any magic dmg thats higher then about 8% of your hp is absorbed, can absord 3 hits of dmg. 3 min recast. Bruisers get Knockout Combination at 65, Pretty much 20 secs of When a combat art is cast, the target gets a 1s stun, so basically use it with all ur combat arts and have a 20 sec stun on mob. Buffing - Monks at 70 odd can self haste to around 150% with good gear, Bruisers on the other hand can only reach around 25% haste and 25% DPSUtility - Monk invis is great, only lasts around 1 minute and uses all your power is great, also they get group FD (15 min recast). Bruisers get Close mind at 52 i think, it is a 30 second protection from fears, stuns, stifles, knockbacks, and couple of other things i cant think of atm. Apart from that i dont think there is much more difference between them. Hope this helps you <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><img src="http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i227/cheesyfishy/sigsagain.jpg" border="0">

Bobbette

04-13-2007, 09:21 AM

Buffing - Monks at 70 odd can self haste to around 150% with good gear, Bruisers on the other hand can only reach around 25% haste and 25% DPS Actually ... my bruiser with self buffs and gear has a 53% dps mod. That doesn't include my proc'ing items, when they proc it goes higher.

Etchii

04-13-2007, 09:56 AM

<cite>tomsky wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bruisers get Knockout Combination at 65, Pretty much 20 secs of When a combat art is cast, the target gets a 1s stun, so basically use it with all ur combat arts and have a 20 sec stun on mob. </blockquote>Don't forget the additional 200-400dmg (at work, exact numbers impossible to get) with each CA. =)

Raidi Sovin'faile

04-13-2007, 05:59 PM

Knockout Combination, at 600 Strength, Master 1 and 25% damage increase from AA's comes around to ~350-750. Average damage is 498 on the nose.. and since we can spam like 13-14 arts in the time, that's a LOT of burst damage capability.Basically, over 20s we can get an extra 7k damage.There have been a lot of posts about differences between classes over in the monk forum. You can find one such post <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=353400" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">here</a>.Here's what I had posted:I posted this in the last Monk/Bruiser comparison.... I feel it's still appropriate. <hr /> Here's a comprehensive list of differences as I see them (this will repeat some stuff that's been said). I left out stuff we share. BRUISER MONK Group Buffs Group +DPS skill Group +Haste skill Offense Offense Stance = Procs Offense Stance = +Haste 3 knockdowns 3 knockdowns 100% proc 5x 120dam 100% proc 8x avg 120dam Decr Attack skill by 50 Decr Defense skill by 15.8 Multi hit = 8 hits Multi hit = 5 hits, same overall damage 4s Daze hit, 1m reuse 3s Daze, 30s reuse (same average damage) Extra AE, 4x ~400, 90s reuse Extra 6s Silence, moderate damage, 30s reuse 42% haste, until canceled, 2%hp/tic Taunt Taunt while stifled/Stunned Same Group Taunt includes interupt Same 25% 418 hate + ~100 damage 50% 470 hate Defense 90s Self Heal 35-42% 3min Targetable Heal 29-35% + cures Dis/Poi Defensive Stance = Poison Defensive Stance = Mental Offtank Buff = ~70 Agi Offtank Buff = ~15 Deflection ~750mit 3m up/dn 2%hp/tic ~540mit 30s up/dn 2%pow/tic Self buff = agility Self buff = wisdom Stun for Mit Same Ancient Spells Immunity to Stun/Etc (long) Immunity to melee attacks (short) Absorb 3 magical hits ~5000 Magical ward Warp to target dam + interupt Group FD +dam & 1s stun per CA, 3m reuse ~120dam/target/1s for 8s, reduce cast spd 48%, 90s reuse Whatever Mez for 10s, 1min reuse Invisibility (power/tic) Kata Fluff Same (but different looking) Skin like poop Fluff x2 Look like tiger and mysticalness Now what I've noticed is that only on a couple combat arts do the reuse timers differ... mostly it's just Bruisers have a higher max and lower min on their damage spread. Shame Combat Arts don't have an enforced minimum like Spells do (see the Combat forum for info on this). On average, our Combat Arts are the same overall damage, and nearly ALL of them have the same cast/reuse timers. Monks end up with extra silence and faster reuse daze (which, btw, does the same damage per second, and similar power cost over 2 uses as the one use of the bruiser version), but Bruisers end up with an extra AoE spell. Well, Monks get Dragonbreath, but it's cone and Knockout Combination helps the ae's do more so Bruisers are still ahead a little in AEing, which can be good for aggro control. Debuffing Defense (maintainable btw, 30s recast on a 30s duration) helps landing hits while in defensive stance and helps the whole raid (or group) land hits as well, while Bruiser's 50 attack skill debuff helps the MT or himself from getting hit as much (or allows sitting in mixed stance on solo, etc)... it's not maintainable tho. Might be with relic chest, iirc. It's fairly close in the end... one helps the whole raid succeed via keeping the MT alive, while the other helps the whole raid land more hits and kill it faster. Defense and Attack aren't equal in how much you need to reduce it to see an equivalent return.. especially when you factor in the number of folks involved in the "roll". The one thing that gets me is that Monks get a health for haste buff AND a mitigation for power + root buff... whereas Bruisers only get a health for mitigation buff. Which has been lowered to nearly match the mitigation for power one. Seems almost like we are missing a DPS for power buff someplace. It may have been why we had a Mez AND a Fear... but PvP came around, and the Devs decided to change that. Oh well, I guess we fight with a pinky tied behind our backs. It's no wonder an equally played Monk vs Bruiser is very close in parsing. Or at least they did. Bruisers benefitted more from group buffs to haste, where Monks were near cap on their own. It's changed, but not that much (anything over 100% haste is only 1/4 benefit). So the extra +haste monks get don't make them a whole heckuva lot better at DPSing than Bruisers. And now that the mitigation buff for bruisers has been cut in half, the tanking isn't exactly too far apart either. In the end, we are so close I can't really find anything to [I cannot control my vocabulary] about. It's very nearly the same results, just done differently. Some things are in favour of tanking (Bruiser's 50 attack skill debuff and mitigation buff lasting 3min), while others are in favour of DPSing (Monk's extra +haste ability and 16 Defense debuff benefiting whole raid's ability to land hits). Kind of reversed compared to how I *thought* it would be... although I never recall a DEV saying Monks are supposed to be more defensive, Bruisers more offensive... that's just what the assumption was due to the Freeport/Qeynos mentality. Monks have an edge over aggro holding too, with 50% proc on pure hate plus that haste buff. We both suffer for holding group aggro though. <hr /> This was written before the Bruiser and Monk AA's... but really, it hasn't changed much. Some things are able to be boosted a little higher than before, but that's about it. I personally like the Aggro and DPS AA's for Bruisers... the defensive and offtank AA's leave something to be desired. None of the end abilities for Brawlers really scream "I Win!" like Lifeburn and Manaburn and such... so I think this balance is still in effect.

Ganeden

04-13-2007, 06:19 PM

DMG:Bruisers have higher sustained and burst DPS.Survivability:As far as survivability that's as simple as hitting FD and both monk's and brusier's FD is exactly the same.buffing:Right, bruisers have a group DPS buff. DPS and haste buffs really come out in a wash when looking at a parse.Utility:Honestly the monk invis is pretty useless, I dont see when it'd be needed since the class can already fd they dont really need an emergency invis. Ive played my friends monk and he even carrys invis totems, if you really need invis you'll want the 15min duration. You're going to be FD flopping to get places in dungeons anyway, since 50% of the stuff usually sees invis. Monks heal heals less and has a 3min recast but you can cast it on other players. The bruiser heal heals more (53% max with aa) and has only a 90 second recast. You siad you'll be soloing alot so the bruiser heal definetly wins here. Bruisers have fear and mez that can come in handy when fighting a group solo (usually fear/mez the named while you burn the ones that are grouped with him) but thats about it. Bruisers have an aa buff that FDs one person in your group (whoever you cast it on) if they're going to die. Monk's definetly have more utility, but if you're going to be soloing, utility doesn't matter. Even if you grouped alot the utility really isnt that much of an advantage.

Raidi Sovin'faile

04-13-2007, 06:25 PM

Stupid forums won't keep fonts anymore.. not unless i change the whole text to a different font. You can figure out the table tho I'm sure.The main difference in damage CAs between Bruisers and Monks is that Monks do half as much damage, but at half the power cost and half the recast timer. So over time, they have the same DPS.Two reasons why Monks show up lower on parses:They have been fooled into thinking that using their CAs will reduce their autoattack damage by a lot. So they don't use CAs a lot of the time. Which is sad really.. because all they have to do is match up their autoattack to the cast/recovery of the CAs and they'd lose very little. Some monks know this, and use all the CAs at their disposal... so those are the ones that you'll see outparse us once in a while.Their CAs may match on longer fights, but if the fight is only going to last about 30s? Bruiser damage is all up front. On a parse that doesn't let the Monk refresh his CAs, we'll always come out ahead in damage.This has been a parsing issue forever.. the classes that can do it all "up front" get better parsing, as opposed to those that have dots or heal over times, etc.This is a small advantage, but it's one that we can exploit fairly well. In strong raids (20k+ damage) fights really don't last long, and have enough time in between that we can get most of our CAs back for the next fight. Bruisers will provide more over Monks in those situations, although only barely. Long fights, we are about equal. Overall.. it's fairly close. Close enough that I'd say the real decision factor here is whether or not you want to be a Chop-Chop, dancing around flailing style martial arts guy... or a Boxing, Punch-your-lights-out type of martial arts guy. That, and do you want to live in dreary town, or Disney Friendly town.

heelena

04-14-2007, 10:33 AM

monks are monksbruisers are gods

Kainsei

04-14-2007, 10:38 AM

Monks are still waiting for our debuff to be on par with the bruiser one. Currently Eye gash (?) debuffs crush/slash/pierce by 50, while punishing cobra only debuffs defense by 15 or so... Apart from that, we're pretty much equal. For soloing the bruiser heal is better but monks have crane flock + tsunami + eagle shriek, which mean at least 10 sec of 100% crit and aoe damage. Adding stuns, stifle, outward calm it's more like 20 sec.

Raidi Sovin'faile

04-15-2007, 04:02 AM

Eh.. as a Bruiser I can absord completely three magical hits (takes care of the beginning nukes of most casting mob fights) and be completely immune to any form of stun, stifle, fear, root, snare, mez, whatever.It's great being all melee invulnerable and all... but when a mob memwipes + stuns group, and then takes off to beat down a mage or priest while you sit there all pretty like and "invulnerable", the Bruiser can just shrug it off and keep smacking the mob around.It helps for pulling as well.. and so does the Sonic Fist (warp to target and back). Nizara is very easy to pull as a Bruiser.With regards to the defense skill, I'm thinking the devs won't ever change that. Debuffing a mob's ability to land a hit is VERY different from debuffing the ability to land hits on the mob.While usually only tanks have any major degree of defensive bonuses, if the mob goes off to attack anyone else, he's nailing them usually with at least 0 modifications to defense or worse, negative modifications. That's also 50 skill being applied to one target at a time (barring the rare melee aoe), so the bonus isn't really multiplied across players much, if at all.On the other hand, all players strive to increase their attack skill. All those doing DPS will have +skill to attack, and even tanks will have positive modifiers either negating their defensive stance reductions, or outright surpassing them (warrior AA end ability removes penalty, wardens can buff skill, etc). Plus, you can have up to 10-15 people wailing on the one target at a time.. that 15 modifier is applying to ALL folks at the same time, all the time. Not to mention it's about landing hits and killing a mob.. not surviving a hit from a mob.. two distinctly different levels on the critical importance factor.Basically what I'm saying is that it doesn't have to be the same amounts for it to have a similar level of effect on combat, especially on raids with large numbers of people smacking a mob in melee. No, it's not as fair when you are fighting one on one. In a PvP setting, the Bruiser vs a Monk situation, the Bruiser's ability to reduce the Monks skill in hitting will be far superior to the Monk's skill in reducing the Bruiser's defense skill. However, since this game isn't strictly Bruisers fighting Monks, the game isn't going to be balanced around this fact. It's going to be balanced around Group and Raid play just as much, if not more than solo (as it takes up the lion's share of content in this game). I don't even think they take any specific balance consideration for when you pit one class against another. 1 vs 1 duels isn't that important an aspect of the game to maintain balance.Bruisers have other advantages when playing solo as well. They have a 90s self only heal, as opposed to the Monk's targetable heal on a longer recast. Bruisers have higher burst damage, thus being able to overwhelm mobs or in weaker classes in pvp, which is a major advantage as well.Monks have group-friendly advantages though.. group FD, the heal useable on others and it cures. The good side always seemed a bit more "for others" while evil seems "for yourself" based.I still, personally feel that the differences in Monk and Bruiser are so minor as to not be an issue whatsoever. The only real changes I could feel for the classes would apply to both of them (increased ability to take Epic hits and keep Epic aggro).

22224446

04-16-2007, 10:49 PM

just some comments:tomsky wrote: <blockquote>Buffing - Monks at 70 odd can self haste to around 150% with good gear, Bruisers on the other hand can only reach around 25% haste and 25% DPS</blockquote>incorrect. first, haste and dps mod cap is 125%. 2nd, u can reach 200 points of dps/haste, but cap is even 125%. the scale isn't linear since eof's combat revamp. btw, i have an almost fully mastered (what gives me haste is m1) monk, with cloak of flames, and haste adornment on belt. my haste is only 133 (=108%). there is some other equipments with more haste, but the most haste mod on item i saw is 32 if i remember correctly. maybe only 30, but its an upper limit estimate. hasted items won't stack eachother, only with buffs and waist adornment. so my upper limit estimate on haste mod by monk is 138 points it could be ~110%.tomsky wrote: <blockquote>Utility - Monk invis is great, only lasts around 1 minute and uses all your power is great, also they get group FD (15 min recast). Bruisers get Close mind at 52 i think, it is a 30 second protection from fears, stuns, stifles, knockbacks, and couple of other things i cant think of atm. </blockquote>inviz could be tricky... u can be make great journeys using wind walk, but after u oop, and press fd, u have to wait power recharge, and as u stand up, u have to cast it again... =) buffs... monk has str and wis self buff, bruiser has str and agi. last is better coz of avodiance bonus they get. bruiser has greater dps on short fights, but monks dps seems to be continous. if i'd start the game over, i'd change to bruiser maybe. its easier to solo with him, even if playing with monk is a great fun, and its a great challenge to hold aggro against the heavy artillery. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />btw, outward calm in m1 wards u against almost 5k of all magical. tsunami has 3 min recast i think. it can be reduced with aa on monk tree. btw monk's self aa tree seems be simple, after u spent points to max the deaggro stance, and maxed out damages, u can choose nice things. ur cure can be extended for all type of magic. ur heal can be increased up to 43-50% of hp. ur name looks great on the top of heal parses, as greatest ammount of single heal. =) even ur run speed can be enhanced up to 70%, to show others, how to train. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Junaru

04-17-2007, 02:06 PM

The only thing I have to add to this is how much Wind Walk (invis) is down played here. I'm L70 and since I got Wind Walk I have used it as much as any other utility I have. Last night while farming names in SoS I would use Wind Walk to cruse from room to room without getting aggro. The FD trick works but after taking a few shots I need to FD and wait till my health is back up. With Wind Walk, once I'm OOP I just use the FD method to get where I need to go. By the time my health is low I can normally Wind Walk again. Sure I could use a totem for this but some of the setinal's in the halls see invis. I wouldn't take long to drain a bag full of totems. Also something else that is over looked is the group FD. While it is meant to use with a group I use it when FD fails me. If I get a failed FD I can just pop back up an instantly group FD myself. I do agree with everything else that is said. For solo I think the Bruiser self heal, mez and burst DPS could really help out a lot. But I've taken my Monk into the new DFC and mentored down without a healer. And with my heal and switching off tanking (Guardian and myself) we were able to do the whole thing including Fyst. So the healing ability of the Monk can change a fight outcome very quickly. And like someone else said. Having a 6k heal on a raid is nice.