Which EOF Line first? Manaburn or Iceshape?

[0greMagi]

<p>Hey guys, just looking for some recommendations. I'm two AA pts away from getting Manaburn, but I've seen how pts into Iceshape will drastically improve DPS, coupled with 5 pts in Frigid Gift. The question is, which would be more beneficial in a raid? I would guess Iceshape line. I've also heard a lot of good things about Manaburn though.</p><p> Comments welcome!</p><p> PS - Forgot to mention I have 68AA pts at the moment and have STA/WIS KOS lines right now. Mainly specc'd to be a soloer but will spec to AGI/WIS soon.</p>

[Trayla]

I was also going to ask for similar advice. Right now I am lvl 26 going for Manaburn in EoF tree. But what is a good thing to go for after that? I am not a raider, even a little bit.

[JohnDoe058]

<p>I say Manaburn first, whether you raid or not.  </p><p>Why?  In a typical raid, Frigid Gift will total 200-250k dmg without iceshape and 250k-350k with.  Manaburn will total 700k-1mil dmg.  I think that the choice is obvious here, at least for me.</p><p>One factor to consider as a raider, is that the more quickly your raid force burns thru mobs, the more useful Manburn will be, since it will hit a lot harder, and you won't need as much power for the next fight.  I only need about 2.5k power when a fight starts, and I can usually have that much in time.  If your raid force is very slow to take down mobs, on the other hand, manaburn will be considerably less useful.</p>

[Liquify]

<p>Manaburn---can hit up to 120k-- 70-80k consistent in raids *per monster, figuring you have decent gear*</p><p>Manaburn is great when the mob is at 14% or so and you cast it, very helpful. However, if you are pvping, its not a very helpful spell.</p>

[0greMagi]

Thanks for the reply guys. Manaburn it is! I have another question though... how does Manaburn hit for 120k? Assuming you crit, you would still need to have a ridiculous amount of power to get that type of dmg right? How much power should I be having at level 65? I have 6k at the moment...

[MadLordOfMilk]

You'd need about 18k power to hit for 120k w/Manaburn on a crit. Which would require top-end gear, the perfect group set up, and a couple very useful temporary buffs (such as from the Necro's Drawing of Souls which increases max power by 13% for a short time). Don't expect to be able to pull that type of hit off very often =)

[Haciv]

Kraaj@Everfrost wrote: <blockquote>You'd need about 18k power to hit for 120k w/Manaburn on a crit. Which would require top-end gear, the perfect group set up, and a couple very useful temporary buffs (such as from the Necro's Drawing of Souls which increases max power by 13% for a short time). Don't expect to be able to pull that type of hit off very often =) </blockquote>lol, you dont need 18K power to hit that high.  I consistantly hit over 100K self buffed + Fury Vim which is a little over 9300 power.  It's all about the debuffs.  Oh, and you can't crit manaburn.

[simpwrx02]

<cite>JohnDoe058 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I say Manaburn first, whether you raid or not.  </p><p>Why?  In a typical raid, Frigid Gift will total 200-250k dmg without iceshape and 250k-350k with.  Manaburn will total 700k-1mil dmg.  I think that the choice is obvious here, at least for me.</p><p>One factor to consider as a raider, is that the more quickly your raid force burns thru mobs, the more useful Manburn will be, since it will hit a lot harder, and you won't need as much power for the next fight.  I only need about 2.5k power when a fight starts, and I can usually have that much in time.  If your raid force is very slow to take down mobs, on the other hand, manaburn will be considerably less useful.</p></blockquote> Please dont use your own total for damage done by iceshape frigid gift combo, you must use your group wide damage from frigid gift/iceshape.  I have done this and casting it normally only at the start of the fight would net more damage than any other spell I cast as long as I added up the group total as it is a group buff.  Last time I added it up ice lash group wide was around 850K next highest was ball of lava ~800 then ice nova~750K, when I was speced with manaburn it was normally third behind both ball and nova.  The illusionist in my group loves the 17 seconds of procs as he normally gets 10 or more on single target mobs and the number skyrockets on group encounters.

[Kordianjr]

Man I'm not getting anywhere near that on my manaburn.  I don't have what i'd call great gear yet, but can get up to 7k power by myself.  What other classes are buffing you for power??  Saw the fury's vim and the drawing of souls from the necro's.  Are there any other classes that can help me get my power buffed up?? Thanks, Kordianjr

[simpwrx02]

<cite>Kordianjr wrote:</cite><blockquote>Man I'm not getting anywhere near that on my manaburn.  I don't have what i'd call great gear yet, but can get up to 7k power by myself.  What other classes are buffing you for power??  Saw the fury's vim and the drawing of souls from the necro's.  Are there any other classes that can help me get my power buffed up?? Thanks, Kordianjr </blockquote> The key to the high hitting manaburn is debuffs.... use brainstorming at rank 8 then freehand with as many points as you can put into it say 7 for 28%  or those 2 will give you 36% more damage, the wand from unrest if it procs just before you cast will addd another 8% or now at 44%more damage.  For power boost after self buffed fury for vim, illusionist has short term buff that increases int( not sure but it might raise power baised on increased int valus), shoulders from claymore give 5% more power.  I am descently equiped and can get up to around 9300 power on raids.  Debuffs are your friend for the really high hits as well try timing it so it is just after a Brig uses dispatch. My highest hit when I was speced manaburn was for a little over 77K, at the time of casting I think I had around 6500 power.  I think a lot of the healers have a power buff.

[Haciv]

<cite>Kordianjr wrote:</cite><blockquote>Man I'm not getting anywhere near that on my manaburn.  I don't have what i'd call great gear yet, but can get up to 7k power by myself.  What other classes are buffing you for power??  Saw the fury's vim and the drawing of souls from the necro's.  Are there any other classes that can help me get my power buffed up?? Thanks, Kordianjr </blockquote> Mystic and Defiler are good power buffers as well.  I had 10,400 power with just Mystic and Fury one time.  You can also use INT and PWR potions to give you a little boost.  Add in the 5% from claymore shoulders and you can easily break 11,000.

[ksux]

Since you're all talking about how to increase Manaburn's damage, I've got a couple questions. 1.  I don't know how many of you are familiar with Illusionist spells, but lvl52 Savante (Master 1) is a 30 second group buff that causes spells to use 56% less power when power is consumed.  I have cast Manaburn with this buff and noticed no difference than casting manaburn without the buff.  Anyone have any ideas why?  My intial thoughts were that I should be seeing 2x the damage from manaburn since I'm using half the power.  I guess along these same lines, does anyone know if Sagacity (the final ability in the Wisdom AA line) affects Manaburn?  I'm guessing that I misunderstand how exactly Manaburn's damage is calculated. 2.  Has anyone tried Fireshape, Wrath of the Burning Prince (Sol Ro miracle), Freehand+Manaburn?  I see from Havic's post that Manaburn does not crit, and I think Wrath of the Burning Prince is essentially a guaranteed crit on the next heat spell, so this probably won't work.  But I'm curious if anyone has ever tried. My power pool during raids is typically around 9k +/- a little and with Brainstorm maxed out and Freehand at 28% my highest Manaburn is just over 89k.  I do agree that debuffs make a significant difference in the damage from Manaburn.  My 89k was with Dispatch Ad3 shortly before we lost our Brig.  Sans Brig, my Manaburns are consistently 75k.

[Mareth]

Manaburn has no mana cost on itself, so savante wont affect it. The power cost on manaburn is an effect of the spell. Also, it can't be critted.

[JohnDoe058]

<cite>simpwrx02 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>JohnDoe058 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I say Manaburn first, whether you raid or not.  </p><p>Why?  In a typical raid, Frigid Gift will total 200-250k dmg without iceshape and 250k-350k with.  Manaburn will total 700k-1mil dmg.  I think that the choice is obvious here, at least for me.</p><p>One factor to consider as a raider, is that the more quickly your raid force burns thru mobs, the more useful Manburn will be, since it will hit a lot harder, and you won't need as much power for the next fight.  I only need about 2.5k power when a fight starts, and I can usually have that much in time.  If your raid force is very slow to take down mobs, on the other hand, manaburn will be considerably less useful.</p></blockquote> Please dont use your own total for damage done by iceshape frigid gift combo, you must use your group wide damage from frigid gift/iceshape.  I have done this and casting it normally only at the start of the fight would net more damage than any other spell I cast as long as I added up the group total as it is a group buff.  Last time I added it up ice lash group wide was around 850K next highest was ball of lava ~800 then ice nova~750K, when I was speced with manaburn it was normally third behind both ball and nova.  The illusionist in my group loves the 17 seconds of procs as he normally gets 10 or more on single target mobs and the number skyrockets on group encounters.</blockquote><p>Well, we have different cast orders, and I don't have the 5 points in Frigid Gift...and I don't have as many casters in my group...</p><p>So i guess that it will differ from person to person, but my Manaburn is always 1st or 2nd on my parse, bar only zones like CMF where I don't have time to get power back up. </p>

[MemD.]

<cite>ksuxtc wrote:</cite><blockquote>2.  Has anyone tried Fireshape, Wrath of the Burning Prince (Sol Ro miracle), Freehand+Manaburn?  I see from Havic's post that Manaburn does not crit, and I think Wrath of the Burning Prince is essentially a guaranteed crit on the next heat spell, so this probably won't work.  But I'm curious if anyone has ever tried. </blockquote> Yes I tried that some time ago and and it did not crit. Another nice boost is to get a necro to cast his "flayers soul" ability from his special (drawing of souls) on you. At adept 3 you get 14% extra mana for 30 seconds, that gave me a 117k hit <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[simpwrx02]

<cite>JohnDoe058 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>simpwrx02 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>JohnDoe058 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I say Manaburn first, whether you raid or not.  </p><p>Why?  In a typical raid, Frigid Gift will total 200-250k dmg without iceshape and 250k-350k with.  Manaburn will total 700k-1mil dmg.  I think that the choice is obvious here, at least for me.</p><p>One factor to consider as a raider, is that the more quickly your raid force burns thru mobs, the more useful Manburn will be, since it will hit a lot harder, and you won't need as much power for the next fight.  I only need about 2.5k power when a fight starts, and I can usually have that much in time.  If your raid force is very slow to take down mobs, on the other hand, manaburn will be considerably less useful.</p></blockquote> Please dont use your own total for damage done by iceshape frigid gift combo, you must use your group wide damage from frigid gift/iceshape.  I have done this and casting it normally only at the start of the fight would net more damage than any other spell I cast as long as I added up the group total as it is a group buff.  Last time I added it up ice lash group wide was around 850K next highest was ball of lava ~800 then ice nova~750K, when I was speced with manaburn it was normally third behind both ball and nova.  The illusionist in my group loves the 17 seconds of procs as he normally gets 10 or more on single target mobs and the number skyrockets on group encounters.</blockquote><p>Well, we have different cast orders, and I don't have the 5 points in Frigid Gift...and I don't have as many casters in my group...</p><p>So i guess that it will differ from person to person, but my Manaburn is always 1st or 2nd on my parse, bar only zones like CMF where I don't have time to get power back up. </p></blockquote><p>My normal group make up seems pretty hybrid me, illu,fury,troub,assassin,another class either a scout or another caster.  Also if you do not have the ability then why are you compareing the 2, the topic of the thread is how does the iceshape ability work in raids. </p><p>I however have been specced both ways and know first hand how each figures into raid fights.  I also fouond that speccing heat line over manburn uped my dps by around 200, but that is just my casting order I guess.  When I was specced manburn I only really used it on trash fights and to dump the rest of my power when a named hit around 10seconds left of being alive.  I normally didnt have very much power at the end of the named fights as I wasnt going to hold back for a huge manburn which is the worst power/damage ratio spell we have.</p><p>I will say however that manburn is the most powerfull spell in the game for herioc content. </p>

[Haciv]

MemD. wrote: <blockquote><cite>ksuxtc wrote:</cite><blockquote>2.  Has anyone tried Fireshape, Wrath of the Burning Prince (Sol Ro miracle), Freehand+Manaburn?  I see from Havic's post that Manaburn does not crit, and I think Wrath of the Burning Prince is essentially a guaranteed crit on the next heat spell, so this probably won't work.  But I'm curious if anyone has ever tried. </blockquote> Yes I tried that some time ago and and it did not crit. Another nice boost is to get a necro to cast his "flayers soul" ability from his special (drawing of souls) on you. At adept 3 you get 14% extra mana for 30 seconds, that gave me a 117k hit <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>To my knowledge you can't Ice or Fire shape manaburn.  It's the only spell that stays as-is.  

[JohnDoe058]

<cite>simpwrx02 wrote:</cite><blockquote>...if you do not have the ability then why are you compareing the 2, the topic of the thread is how does the iceshape ability work in raids.  </blockquote><p>I said that I dont' have the FG enhance AA, not that I don't have Iceshape.</p><blockquote>I however have been specced both ways and know first hand how each figures into raid fights.  I also fouond that speccing heat line over manburn uped my dps by around 200, but that is just my casting order I guess.  </blockquote><p>Then you use fire spells too much, and manaburn not often enough.  Fire spells are weak, and should only be used as filler.  That is, unless somehow with Fire spec, you're consistently parsing more than what I am, with the same buffs (1700-2100 zonewide, no real exceptions; rarely have any single-target buffs).</p>

[ThyMajesty]

<p>i chose this way:</p><p>1. powerline -> manaburn</p><p>2. wisline -> freehand, brainstorm, endability (forgot name)</p><p>3. agiline -> fastcasts</p><p>4. iceline -> simple enhancements on some spells</p><p>but including some like IN or Fusion, which you will not have until close to endgame, where having enough AAs should not be an issue anymore</p>

[simpwrx02]

<cite>JohnDoe058 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>simpwrx02 wrote:</cite><blockquote>...if you do not have the ability then why are you compareing the 2, the topic of the thread is how does the iceshape ability work in raids.  </blockquote><p>I said that I dont' have the FG enhance AA, not that I don't have Iceshape.</p><blockquote>I however have been specced both ways and know first hand how each figures into raid fights.  I also fouond that speccing heat line over manburn uped my dps by around 200, but that is just my casting order I guess.  </blockquote><p>Then you use fire spells too much, and manaburn not often enough.  Fire spells are weak, and should only be used as filler.  That is, unless somehow with Fire spec, you're consistently parsing more than what I am, with the same buffs (1700-2100 zonewide, no real exceptions; rarely have any single-target buffs).</p></blockquote><p>I use fire spells to much.... last time I checked 80% of our spells are fire based, yeah ball of lava is a weak spell for sure I only average 5800 per cast on raids and can cast it once every 10 seconds( that includes cast recover and recast) irradiate also pretty weak I guess it hits for 5 times and averages 750/hit or about 3500 per casting. I guess my 5800/2.62 seconds cast and recovery is pretty low and should only be filler cuz god knows every one is way above 2200 dps and 3500/2 seconds sucks as well only a horrible 1750 dps. I agree the ice based spells are the money shots, but the recast is way longer ice nova hits for about 13,000 on raids and takes 4 seconds cast/recast which is nice for 3250 dps, but I can normally only cast it once or maybe twice on most fights.  And zone wide I sit about the same as you 1700-2100 seems about right depending on zone, major difference is I dont get the 3-5K dps from manaburn fights mine is 1700-2100 every single fight, and I like the consistancy which is also the main reason I am specced wis/agi instead of wis/str I like the consistancy.</p><p>I misread you previous post I just assumed that you wouldnt take iceshape with out 5 points in enhace frigidgift, sorry about that assumption we all know what that does. </p>

[daray]

<cite>JohnDoe058 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Then you use fire spells too much, and manaburn not often enough.  Fire spells are weak, and should only be used as filler.  That is, unless somehow with Fire spec, you're consistently parsing more than what I am, with the same buffs (1700-2100 zonewide, no real exceptions; rarely have any single-target buffs).</blockquote> To those that read these forums looking for advice, don't believe everything you read. The above is an example of one of many misleading ignorant comments that you may find. Heat spells are more than just filler spells, and will in fact make up a large portion of your dps - and so they should. Maximising your own personal dps on raids will in part come down to your spell rotation, which is a priority order that you develop to maintain high sustained dps. In essence, working out your spell priority order means you need to sit down and work out exactly how much dps <i>each </i>of your spells does for the <i>amount of time that you spend casting it (including the 0.5s recovery you have at the end of every spell).</i> Once you have an ordered list, you need to always cast you next spell based on which spell is available that is highest up your list. It is really this simple. Now, for me personally (manaburn discussion aside for one moment), this means that i will regulary be casting spells like inferno surge, ball of lava, irradiate, incapacitate and convulsions (and even firestorm) between ice nova / fusion recasts (not going to give out my spell rotation here - that is something for people to work out on an individual basis). We are a continuous casting class and need to be chaining spells to reach our full dps potential. Saying that someone uses fire spells too much just smacks of complete ignorance. Your heat based spells <i>need</i> to see a high usage if you are wanting to achieve anywhere near your dps potential. These are not merely filler spells - their proper use will actually <i>enhance your dps</i>. And before you try to remind me that you see 1700-2100 zonewides with your setup/rotation, I will just point out that the vast majority of my (single target) parses fall between 2300 - 3000 with a basic caster group setup (troub, and sometimes a fury) - and no, i don't have the avatar robe or wand yet. On avatar and contested mayong fights (largely single target as i am mostly on the main mob), I am seeing a sustained dps of 1600-2000 across extended fights (15 to 30 minute long fights).  Yes, I am speced down the heat line, and no, i do not have manaburn. My KoS AA build is WIS/AGI. Now taking the fire line from our EoF AA set will (for the majority of people) provide the largest personal (sustained) dps boost. This is because it is the only line to provide actual casting speed (and duration) enhancements to our most popular spells. So overlooking it, and just opting for the power line + the cold line, will most likely leave your dps below where it would otherwise have been. In fact, just for illustration purposes, below is a screenshot of my current EoF AA setup. <img src="http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i301/neleso/EoF_AA_Setup.jpg" border="0"> Now, you may be curious as to why  I do not use manaburn. Before someone tries to point out that I should try manaburn before commenting on it, I will just say here that I have used manaburn, and I have in fact been speced with manaburn for a good 2 months to try and evaluate its potential on raids. The short answer is that, while manaburn is clearly overpowered for solo and group content, its performance on raids leaves a lot to be desired (it is very situational at best). Switching away from manaburn, resulted in a personal 200-300 dps gain. While manaburn will land you the occasional high trash-fight parse once every 5 minutes, its effectiveness on serious named encounters quickly diminishes - and it is these tough named encounters that are the challenge in the game (and not trash). If you think that the occasional high trash parse is the way to benefit your raid the most, then I guess most of my post will go over your head. Ironically those that actually see the greatest benefit from manaburn, are those people that would otherwise find themselves struggling to attain a reasonable level of dps - and are after a "one-button" dps solution. To be able to get any reasonable level of benefit on raids from being speced manaburn, you would need - 1) To be in a raid that takes long enough between pulls such that you can regen enough power between fights. 2) To be in a raid that takes long enough between pulls such that you can have manaburn up and ready for every alternate pull (such that it will actually provide a positive reflection in a zone parse). 3) To be in a raid that kills the mobs fast enough such that you have enough power remaining towards the end of the fight to get an acceptable hit out of manaburn (after having chain casted the entire duration of the fight). 4) To have a large enough power pool to make the most out of manaburn (whether through gear, or group buffs, or both). It is no surprise therefore, that manaburn will only provide a positive reflection for the more casual players that do not fully appreciate how to maximise their dps without the use of it.

[kingdeke]

<cite>daray wrote:</cite><blockquote> Switching away from manaburn, resulted in a personal 200-300 dps gain. </blockquote> Ditto here, I was fire + manaburn. I switched away from manaburn because i was sick of 1/2 the mobs in every encounter resisting AOE's.

[SacDaddy420]

<cite>daray wrote:</cite><blockquote> 3) To be in a raid that kills the mobs fast enough such that you have enough power remaining towards the end of the fight to get an acceptable hit out of manaburn (after having chain casted the entire duration of the fight). 4) To have a large enough power pool to make the most out of manaburn (whether through gear, or group buffs, or both). Only 3 and 4 apply to me  <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />        It's nice with all the good things from a troub + illusi I never even slow down my raid once after MB </blockquote>

[QQ-Fatman]

<cite>Haciv wrote:</cite><blockquote>MemD. wrote: <blockquote><cite>ksuxtc wrote:</cite><blockquote>2.  Has anyone tried Fireshape, Wrath of the Burning Prince (Sol Ro miracle), Freehand+Manaburn?  I see from Havic's post that Manaburn does not crit, and I think Wrath of the Burning Prince is essentially a guaranteed crit on the next heat spell, so this probably won't work.  But I'm curious if anyone has ever tried. </blockquote> Yes I tried that some time ago and and it did not crit. Another nice boost is to get a necro to cast his "flayers soul" ability from his special (drawing of souls) on you. At adept 3 you get 14% extra mana for 30 seconds, that gave me a 117k hit <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>To my knowledge you can't Ice or Fire shape manaburn.  It's the only spell that stays as-is.   </blockquote>you can fire shape manaburn, it'll do heat damage, however it wont trigger wrath of burning prince. i use fireshape + manaburn all the time because i usually group with a ranger who can debuff 2k heat, and a mystic who can debuff another 1k heat, plus my own debuff 1.4k, to make my manaburn do a lot more damage.

[JohnDoe058]

<cite>daray wrote:</cite><blockquote>Maximising your own personal dps on raids will in part come down to your spell rotation, which is a priority order that you develop to maintain high sustained dps. In essence, working out your spell priority order means you need to sit down and work out exactly how much dps <i>each </i>of your spells does for the <i>amount of time that you spend casting it (including the 0.5s recovery you have at the end of every spell).</i> Once you have an ordered list, you need to always cast you next spell based on which spell is available that is highest up your list. It is really this simple.</blockquote><p> Well, thanks for clearing that up.  I had no idea. <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=163887" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=163887</a></p><blockquote>On avatar and contested mayong fights (largely single target as i am mostly on the main mob), I am seeing a sustained dps of 1600-2000 across extended fights (15 to 30 minute long fights).  Yes, I am speced down the heat line...</blockquote><p> Whoa, whoa, whoa.  Who said anything about upper-end contested mobs?  Most of us just aren't privileged enough to be in the server's top 2 guilds.  We rarely even have a Brigand.  Yeah, if I got to fight that stuff, I'd be fire specced, too.</p><blockquote>Ironically those that actually see the greatest benefit from manaburn, are those people that would otherwise find themselves struggling to attain a reasonable level of dps - and are after a "one-button" dps solution. It is no surprise therefore, that manaburn will only provide a positive reflection for the more casual players that do not fully appreciate how to maximise their dps without the use of it.  </blockquote><p> Don't get snooty, little Ms. I'm-so-perfect-because-I'm-in-a-better-guild.  For OUR raid setup, on what WE raid, I tried your way, and I tried my way.  My way works way better.  Most people don't successfully raid avatars and such, so my advice stands for the typical raider.</p><p>And you don't get to call me "ignorant" when I've developed a software application that tells me how much fire line vs. power line actually helps in single-target, and aoe fights, and you haven't.  And my experience reflects it.  I've done the math, whereas your "evidence" is strictly anectodal.</p><p>Your precious fire line avails you little on a x3 fight, whereas I still have 70% power for a nice manaburn toward the end of it.  And at the rate our raid force cuts through trash, I only need 1500 power for the next fight, which can quickly be mustered (not mustard) on short notice, with a Power AA spec.</p><p>BTW, I'm impressed that u can do 1600-2000 dps on 15+ min fights.  I wish that my guild were good enough to knock down avatars.  Now don't let that get to your head, Ms. Perfect.</p>

[daray]

<cite>JohnDoe058 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>daray wrote:</cite><blockquote>Maximising your own personal dps on raids will in part come down to your spell rotation, which is a priority order that you develop to maintain high sustained dps. In essence, working out your spell priority order means you need to sit down and work out exactly how much dps <i>each </i>of your spells does for the <i>amount of time that you spend casting it (including the 0.5s recovery you have at the end of every spell).</i> Once you have an ordered list, you need to always cast you next spell based on which spell is available that is highest up your list. It is really this simple.</blockquote><p> Well, thanks for clearing that up.  I had no idea. <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=163887" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=163887</a></p> </blockquote> Actually, I have done the maths, as well as conducting numerous tests on different setups to confirm the results. I stand by what I said before. If you disagree, then that is fine. I wasn't out to offend you. And btw, the information in the link you posted in that quote is outdated and you may want to run the numbers again. For a quick comparison, these are some numbers on a couple of spells that I am getting at 784 INT (AGI/WIS/Fire Spec) <i>Ice Nova</i> 2047 <i>Ball of Lava</i> 1293 (up from 1090 w/o Fire Spec) <i>Irradiate</i> 1272 (up from 996 w/o Fire Spec) <i>Convulsions</i> 1045 (Enhancements increase the tick speed, so this spell will be available for use more often and help avoid being forced too far down the priority order) <i>Incapacitate</i> 1142 <i>Sunstrike</i> 705 (at rank 3 ... 613 w/o Fire Spec enhancements) If you want dps where it matters then you can't go wrong with the fire spec. Fire spec enhances our most used spells. One other thing you seem to have somewhat overlooked, is the importance of procs to our dps, especially some of the newer procs that provide temporary buffs that increase our dps substantially (e.g. Wand of Crystalized Plasma/Robe of Al'Kabor). Procs chances are based off of the base casting times of all of our spells as I am sure you are aware, so any spell haste enhancements will actually increase your proc rate. And if you reread my previous post, I did say that manaburn will <i>only</i> provide better overall dps than the other specs in <i>certain </i>scenarios - but that is dependent on your raid's mentality. When i was manaburn speced, I did join a Labs pickup raid. It was slow going and i had fusion up for every pull, and manaburn up for every 2nd pull. My zone parse came in at over 4k dps. So yes, while manaburn might work for you, it certainly leaves me at a disadvantage over my current spec. We virtually chain pull every zone, so that leaves very little opportunity to use manaburn to any beneficial end. And as a somewhat related thought, I don't believe in trying to inflate the zone parse through MBing trash at the cost of effectiveness against the serious named encounters.

[Noaani]

<cite>daray wrote:</cite><blockquote>So yes, while manaburn might work for you, it certainly leaves me at a disadvantage over my current spec. </blockquote><p>Yeah, this part is kinda important. If your guild moves fast, manaburn is not going to work for you. If you can have it up even for every 4th fight, its at least worth looking at.</p><p>For me right now, its worth having in EoF content, but when my guild goes back to some KoS zones, we move through so fast that i do wish i was fire/ice, at least on those 2 or 3 days. When we get EoF content going that fast, its a simple matter of a respec, then reworking my casting priority and i'm all gtg again.</p>

[JohnDoe058]

<cite>daray wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>JohnDoe058 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>daray wrote:</cite><blockquote>Maximising your own personal dps on raids will in part come down to your spell rotation, which is a priority order that you develop to maintain high sustained dps. In essence, working out your spell priority order means you need to sit down and work out exactly how much dps <i>each </i>of your spells does for the <i>amount of time that you spend casting it (including the 0.5s recovery you have at the end of every spell).</i> Once you have an ordered list, you need to always cast you next spell based on which spell is available that is highest up your list. It is really this simple.</blockquote><p> Well, thanks for clearing that up.  I had no idea. <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=163887" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=163887</a></p> </blockquote> Actually, I have done the maths, as well as conducting numerous tests on different setups to confirm the results. I stand by what I said before. If you disagree, then that is fine. I wasn't out to offend you. And btw, the information in the link you posted in that quote is outdated and you may want to run the numbers again. For a quick comparison, these are some numbers on a couple of spells that I am getting at 784 INT (AGI/WIS/Fire Spec) <i>Ice Nova</i> 2047 <i>Ball of Lava</i> 1293 (up from 1090 w/o Fire Spec) <i>Irradiate</i> 1272 (up from 996 w/o Fire Spec) <i>Convulsions</i> 1045 (Enhancements increase the tick speed, so this spell will be available for use more often and help avoid being forced too far down the priority order) <i>Incapacitate</i> 1142 <i>Sunstrike</i> 705 (at rank 3 ... 613 w/o Fire Spec enhancements) If you want dps where it matters then you can't go wrong with the fire spec. Fire spec enhances our most used spells. One other thing you seem to have somewhat overlooked, is the importance of procs to our dps, especially some of the newer procs that provide temporary buffs that increase our dps substantially (e.g. Wand of Crystalized Plasma/Robe of Al'Kabor). Procs chances are based off of the base casting times of all of our spells as I am sure you are aware, so any spell haste enhancements will actually increase your proc rate. And if you reread my previous post, I did say that manaburn will <i>only</i> provide better overall dps than the other specs in <i>certain </i>scenarios - but that is dependent on your raid's mentality. When i was manaburn speced, I did join a Labs pickup raid. It was slow going and i had fusion up for every pull, and manaburn up for every 2nd pull. My zone parse came in at over 4k dps. So yes, while manaburn might work for you, it certainly leaves me at a disadvantage over my current spec. We virtually chain pull every zone, so that leaves very little opportunity to use manaburn to any beneficial end. And as a somewhat related thought, I don't believe in trying to inflate the zone parse through MBing trash at the cost of effectiveness against the serious named encounters. </blockquote><p>I think that we're largely in agreement, now that we've both communicated more data.  I made assumptions in my original post regarding that nature of your raidforce, and your raid targets.</p><p>Yes, i know that post I linked is horribly outdated.  If you read down, it states that it's b4 EoF, at the old INT cap, with no procs, dmg enhancers, or haste taken into consideration.  And not all spells were listed at the M1 rate of damage.</p><p>My new program factors in damage bonuses (like ro cloak), procs, both normalized and denormalized, and spell haste (factoring in recovery time, which doesn't benefit from the haste).  It tells me that for long fights, Manaburn is barf, and fire line rules supreme on LONG singles.  The longer fights that we do (Chel'Drak, CMF, etc)...manaburn is as useful as a solar-powered flashlight.  Given your raid force, I'd prolly be fire-specced too.  Nice to have the spike dmg for a couple of the names in MMIS tho.</p><p>And you have a good point about inflated ZW parses...maybe i should leave the summoners and swashies to the task of cleaning up AoE trash, and spec to burn down the names.  But it feels so good to compete with and often beat them in their strong suit lol.</p><p>Also, since I don't have the 5 pts in FG enhancer....you tell me, is it really worth it in terms of increased raidwide DPS?  This may be another point in which i should quit being such a glory boy, and help the raidforce out more.</p><p>My last post was a bit vehement because I resented being called "ignorant" after all the time and thought I've put into maximizing my own DPS.  Mission accomplished btw lol, now I should readjust to be more of a team player.</p>

[duuf]

Started out a manaburn skeptic, but was forced to convert to keep up with the other wiz and now I love it. Without revealing guild strategy I will say that our guild uses manaburn as part of its raid strategy <u>specifically</u> for taking out the high end named mobs and we've done all zones and are currently on the avatars. More fun than kicking biddies, get it first I think you will like it.

[Legiax]

<p>I only recently started my Wizzy, and hes now level 42 with 30 AA's, not a great deal at all, but enough.</p><p>As a solo wizzy levelling up, go for the Magi Shielding ward, its saved my butt so many times its silly. Also, on PvP servers its crucial to surviving.</p><p>Im now putting my AA's in to the crit chances on STR, and getting Catalyst. I'll be taking the rest of my points down into WIS for the % base dmg increass, along with the wards from that line too.</p><p>After that, its manaburn time, it has to be the ultimate solo ability at level 50. ... Root, Ice Comet, a few Firestrikes then Manaburn = dead named. I had a wizzy with that spec but deleted him... then made a new one lol, and it was amazingly fun, and easy as chips to solo with,.</p>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<p>Another thing the people arguing against manaburn, must consider is aquiring enough power proccing gear to keep you topped off on power for the entire duration of any fight.</p><p>See fomka for an example.</p><p>Some of his parses he's posted that he's manaburning with 95% power at like the 3 min mark.</p><p>If you were to compare that kind of spike damage to a fire spec wizard, there just isn't anyway you can keep up.</p><p>Now the low end raiding wizard who doesn't have as much power procc'ing gear will only see small benefits in short duration fights (less than 2 min) at best case senario, while the high end (4+ proc pieces) will gain infinetly more value from manaburn, and so will the raid.</p>

[daray]

<cite>IllusiveThoughts wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Another thing the people arguing against manaburn, must consider is aquiring enough power proccing gear to keep you topped off on power for the entire duration of any fight.</p><p>See fomka for an example.</p><p>Some of his parses he's posted that he's manaburning with 95% power at like the 3 min mark.</p><p>If you were to compare that kind of spike damage to a fire spec wizard, there just isn't anyway you can keep up.</p></blockquote> Actually, to equip yourself in power-procing gear, you would be losing a lot of dps potential from many items that in themselves provide rather large dps gains. As some examples off the top of my head: Pantaloons of Temporal Foresight > Pantaloons of Mystical Silk Plasma Wand/Staff of Light > Wand of the Tempest Robe of Al'Kabor > Gown of Glory Slippers of Al'Kabor/Vine-wrapped > Matron boots Dark Orb > Necromantic orb 5-Set Bonus > Malkonis Hat/Tarinax Shoulders Cloak of Unrest/Mayong cloak/Deity cloak > V'Ncenzi's The only use I put my power proc items too is <i>extended fights</i> - i.e. avatars and contested mayong. And even with pantaloons of mystical silk, wand of the tempest, gown of glory, necromantic orb, and V'ncenzi's cloak equipped I find myself still losing power at a steady rate. It is not enough to off-set the power consumption from chain casting, and keep power at anywhere near 95% as you suggested. Sacrificing many of the above items to equip my power proc gear (to keep power up for a manaburn) is just not viable for me personally, and will actually result in significantly lower zone-wides.

[IllusiveThoughts]

<cite>daray wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>IllusiveThoughts wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Another thing the people arguing against manaburn, must consider is aquiring enough power proccing gear to keep you topped off on power for the entire duration of any fight.</p><p>See fomka for an example.</p><p>Some of his parses he's posted that he's manaburning with 95% power at like the 3 min mark.</p><p>If you were to compare that kind of spike damage to a fire spec wizard, there just isn't anyway you can keep up.</p></blockquote> Actually, to equip yourself in power-procing gear, you would be losing a lot of dps potential from many items that in themselves provide rather large dps gains. As some examples off the top of my head: Pantaloons of Temporal Foresight > Pantaloons of Mystical Silk Plasma Wand/Staff of Light > Wand of the Tempest Robe of Al'Kabor > Gown of Glory Slippers of Al'Kabor/Vine-wrapped > Matron boots Dark Orb > Necromantic orb 5-Set Bonus > Malkonis Hat/Tarinax Shoulders Cloak of Unrest/Mayong cloak/Deity cloak > V'Ncenzi's The only use I put my power proc items too is <i>extended fights</i> - i.e. avatars and contested mayong. And even with pantaloons of mystical silk, wand of the tempest, gown of glory, necromantic orb, and V'ncenzi's cloak equipped I find myself still losing power at a steady rate. It is not enough to off-set the power consumption from chain casting, and keep power at anywhere near 95% as you suggested. Sacrificing many of the above items to equip my power proc gear (to keep power up for a manaburn) is just not viable for me personally, and will actually result in significantly lower zone-wides. </blockquote><p>wand of the tempest is a huge power proccer, and you would only loose about 2% dps from a dps centric wand,</p><p>if anyone had the robe of al'kabor would you EVER wear gown of glory again? I think not.</p><p>I'm not familar with slippers (are those the leg set shoes or is there another fabled one?)</p><p>necro orb deals damage AND procs power, there is little dps loss on that</p><p>5 set bonus can be attained while still wearing proccing gear-this point is moot.</p><p>sol ro cloak is only about 1-2% dps boost as well, what do the others work out too?</p><p>so far you're at around 3-4% dps loss from power proccing gear on fights that do not require you to use vital conversion or spend 0 time clicking on regens, (generally 2-2.5 min @9k power full burn) and any fights lasting longer the simple fact of not casting power coversions the power proccing gear wins out, then factor in manaburn on top of that and its a viable choice.</p>

[Lakespookie]

<p>i totally agree on the majority of burns being used ot top off crap trash but there are situational uses where stacking MB with LF etc is useful, granted overall you will do more via other methods over a duration sometimes the ability to unleash 200k damage in a 5 second perioud is defianatley usefull,</p><p>i have to agree with illusive on the power regens but i would still wear my dps gear over power gear.</p><p>and lastly why the hell wont the cloack of unrest ever drop for me ???????</p>