Betrayal should let you change your class to anything in the archtype

[CoLD MeTaL]

<p>As a paladin if I betray I should be allowed to become any fighter, not just crusader, the whole crusader thing is really gone now anyway.</p>

[Stuge]

Just thinking from a conditioning and training standpoint, I'm not sure that your character would have the frame of reference necessary to be successful in a class outside of his or her archetype.  In this example, specifically, someone who supposedly grew up and came into adulthood training and conditioning themselves in the crusader/knightly arts wouldn't have the base characteristics to just <i>decide</i> that all of a sudden they have the skills of a monk or the fortitude of the warrior.  An alignment or belief shift doesn't necessarily change one's physical skills or characteristics. From a gaming standpoint, it would seem to prevent "flavor of the month" class changes which is a good thing.

[Mantell]

<p>I don't think you should look at this from a roleplaying standpoint. Does it make any sense that you start out in Qeynos using elemental magic to summon elementals and when you get to Freeport you animate the dead to be your servants? Does it make sense that you go from being a Shadowknight in Freeport to being a Paladin in Qeynos?</p><p>I don't know if it's a good idea though. I'd hate to find out that the reason I keep dying is because the level 70 Warden in my group was a Templar last week and has no idea what his spells do. Or that the Guardian tanking was a Brawler last Tuesday and hasn't got used to his lack of Feign Death.</p>

[interstellarmatter]

<p>I think that the change to just your counterpart was done to minimize the changes needed in your character.  For example, changing from a pally to a bruiser would require you to drop all your plate gear.   I think that equipment thing is the barrior keeping them from opening this up.</p>

[liveja]

<p>I sympathize with the OP on this one ... because I've got a Conjuror, & I really, really wish I'd started him as a Chanter, instead. I've just gotten really bored with the character, don't really want to keep leveling him, but I've invested too much time & in-game money on him so far. If I could betray & become a Coercer, instead of a Necro, that would be awesome <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>A very interesting idea, Cold Metal, but don't hold your breath hoping.</p>

[Elizabette]

<cite>Mantell wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I don't know if it's a good idea though. I'd hate to find out that the reason I keep dying is because the level 70 Warden in my group was a Templar last week and has no idea what his spells do. Or that the Guardian tanking was a Brawler last Tuesday and hasn't got used to his lack of Feign Death. </p></blockquote> I agree whole heartedly. If a necro went and betrayed to Wizard? Completely different play styles.

[Stuge]

<cite>Mantell wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I don't think you should look at this from a roleplaying standpoint. Does it make any sense that you start out in Qeynos using elemental magic to summon elementals and when you get to Freeport you animate the dead to be your servants? Does it make sense that you go from being a Shadowknight in Freeport to being a Paladin in Qeynos?</p></blockquote> Actually it does make sense.  At the core, they are the same thing.  A conjuror manipulates earth, a necro manipulates bones (minerals).  A conjuror animates inert elements into functional assistants, a necro animates inert elements into functional assistants.  The difference between them is simply a matter of /what/ each class chooses to use as a canvas for their art. Shadowknights and paladins are both crusaders.  At the core, they are the same.  Knights who derive their powers from a belief system.  Should that belief system..that alignment change, then they are now drawing power from a different source.  They haven't all of a sudden learned Kung-Fu.  They haven't all of a sudden grown 50 pounds of mass and replaced all of their years of training and muscle memory with new skills...their divine power is now simply flowing from a tap based in the roots of a new belief system.

[Lexi357]

<p><b><span style="font-size: small; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif">IMHO, I like that there is even a betrayal that gives the chance to go from one city to another, or depending on what class you are, you may stay in the same city but choose an alternate class.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Arial">Not to make light of the betrayal quest as it is at times very hard to do AND very tedious, I have made the move 4 times with various toons and I must say I do not regret having done so, of course what helped me was the fact 3 of the toons I had, were allowed to make a choice, they were neutral to begin with.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Arial">What *I* would like to see, is a way to do that with Crafting!</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Arial">Perhaps I have reached 70 in my chosen trade...there are no more books, there are no more skills, there is nothing to work for/toward. I could make another character and build him/her up in another crafting trade but if I am out of toons, if my other toons are more geared toward adventuring, Maybe...just maybe...I could do a quest, that would allow me the chance to learn a new tradeskill. I would start as an apprentice of course, perhaps gleaming some of the knowledge I already have, but taking on new and additional knowledge where I could learn and practice an entirely new trade gaining expirence in that trade and becoming capable of creating other items.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Arial"> For example,</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Arial"> A tailor who is used to working with cloth and leather could learn to cook, he/she is already familiar with measurments and why shouldn't she/he be allowed to gleam the meat from the kill as well as the pelt?</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Arial">an armorer can fashion metal into breastplates and helms, could he/she not use that same knowledge then to create a sword or an arrowhead? </span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Arial">A woodworker or carpenter are also close in practice, if I can create a weapon out of fine wood, why could I not then create a box or a totem? by the same token if my hands are adept at making a beautiful armoire, what would prevent me from fashioning a bow or a shield?</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Arial">I know alchemy, would it be that much more to be able to create spells and jot them down on a scroll?</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Arial">If I have the dexterity to take fine gems and meld them into jewelery, I might be just as capable of taking leather and weaving it into cloth.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Arial">IMHO it would be much easier to transition from one crafting ability to another than it is to transition from one adventure class to another, it wouldn't mean we have to unlearn what we already know but rather broaden our horizons and learn/expirence/do MORE.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Arial">Of course that sets up the age old atage Jack of all trades, master of none. no one can be the BEST at everything, so you may sacrafice some of the knowledge/ability in your current main profession (one mastery but up to 3 apprenticeships)</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Arial">Taking the AA as an example we can max out 2 of the lines in our main tree or take a bit of each of them for a more rounded playstyle. Why couldn't we do something akin to that within crafting? or perhaps rebuke our mastery completely and start as an apprentice for another craft, setting it as our main crafting mastery?</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Arial">I realize it would take much to set up and alot to code/change within the game, but 2 yrs ago no one ever thought we could change cities or even classes, that once chosen like it or not we were stuck or had to suck up all the time spent and re-roll that toon. I think if given some real thought, this could be accomplished.  A quest (or series of quests) could be worked out and minor changes to the game mechanics made, little by little.  For those who don't wish to change, for those content with their trades need not concern themselves with any of it, however in this scenario a mastercrafted robe made by a level 50 tailor would have a "slight" advantage over a mastercrafted robe by a level 50 tailor/40 provisioner/28 jeweler. </span></b></p><p><b></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Arial">Ok rebukes, suggestions, ideas, or just general thoughts?</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Arial">Fire away!</span></b></p><p><b></b></p><p><b></b></p><p><b></b></p><p><b></b></p><p><b></b></p><p><b></b></p>

[ZachSpastic]

CoLD MeTaL wrote: <blockquote><p>As a paladin if I betray I should be allowed to become any fighter, not just crusader, the whole crusader thing is really gone now anyway.</p></blockquote>I'd be okay with them going in the other direction and removing betrayal from the game. I do agree, however, that the EQ2 Paladin class doesn't seem very paladinish, at least not to an old-school player like me.

[Zenith]

Would also be nice if you betrayed to the same class if you didn't loose all your spell ranks!

[Valdaglerion]

<p>Personally, I full understand the need to keep classes as a single for the toon, in addition to race and gender as they reflect a whole host of training, equipment and trait dependancies but for the life of me I can see no reason why any toon should be limited to a single tradeskill. </p><p> I think you should have the opprutnity to open a new tradeskill after the first time you max a skill. You would then go to the crafting trainer and declare you wish to expand your knowledge. This would lock your current skill specialization and open all the lower skills for improvement to you could expand to another tradeskill (basically expand anything necessary in the first 20 levels to get anotehr specialization declared.)</p><p> This would allow for a single toon to max out all skills if they really wanted to making them uber crafters. It adds another level of enjoyment for your toons.</p><p> The same thing would go for the new secondary skills, max out transmuting and add tinkering.</p><p> Of course, there are some people who will declare the end of crafting as a career in the game but quite honestly you cant make a good living at it anyway if thats the only thing you are doing. It would however keep you from getting raked over the coals when you want something made and the only person online skilled to make it wants to charge you out the wazoo for it leaving you with only the option or paying it or waiting til someone for reasonable gets online.</p>

[bubbaj6]

To me, betraying isn't about classes, it's about politics. You don't betray to change class, you betray because you don't like your city. If you change class, it's because your practice wouldn't be welcome in your new city. It's like people getting excited about weddings and not the marriage. Don't lose focus on the big picture. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Betraying was to change cities. Changing class was just a side effect for some.

[Ravaan]

<cite>Mantell wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I don't know if it's a good idea though. I'd hate to find out that the reason I keep dying is because the level 70 Warden in my group was a Templar last week and has no idea what his spells do. Or that the Guardian tanking was a Brawler last Tuesday and hasn't got used to his lack of Feign Death.</p></blockquote><p> oh please for the love of god can we stop with the nonsense that changing classes would be so incredibly complicated. this game is NOT rocket science ... ALL the classes are very easy to learn and play. </p><p>I don't know maybe theres a bunch of dumbasses playing this game, but i had to use my cousins tank the other day (I usually play a healer), and maybe it took me an hour to figure out his CA and buffs. After that I was able to use him fine ... I was even commended in the group and asked if i had a tank. </p><p>its really not that hard and i don't know why people think it is. I mean do people just say its tough to feed thier own ego or what?</p>

[Tuetatesu]

<p>I agree with some of the posts.  Betraying should be just about faction, not class.</p><p> However, I do wish there was some quest you could do to change your class to another archtype.  That would be fantastic</p><p> OH, and a quest to change your crafting archtype. =P</p>

[interstellarmatter]

<cite>Ravaan wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mantell wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I don't know if it's a good idea though. I'd hate to find out that the reason I keep dying is because the level 70 Warden in my group was a Templar last week and has no idea what his spells do. Or that the Guardian tanking was a Brawler last Tuesday and hasn't got used to his lack of Feign Death.</p></blockquote><p> oh please for the love of god can we stop with the nonsense that changing classes would be so incredibly complicated. this game is NOT rocket science ... ALL the classes are very easy to learn and play. </p><p>I don't know maybe theres a bunch of dumbasses playing this game, but i had to use my cousins tank the other day (I usually play a healer), and maybe it took me an hour to figure out his CA and buffs. After that I was able to use him fine ... I was even commended in the group and asked if i had a tank. </p><p>its really not that hard and i don't know why people think it is. I mean do people just say its tough to feed thier own ego or what?</p></blockquote>You are right.  In fact, we just should have a button to hit if we want to be lvl 70.  It's stupid to stroke the ego of the people who worked to be there.  What were we thinking?

[Ravaan]

<cite>interstellarmatter wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ravaan wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mantell wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I don't know if it's a good idea though. I'd hate to find out that the reason I keep dying is because the level 70 Warden in my group was a Templar last week and has no idea what his spells do. Or that the Guardian tanking was a Brawler last Tuesday and hasn't got used to his lack of Feign Death.</p></blockquote><p> oh please for the love of god can we stop with the nonsense that changing classes would be so incredibly complicated. this game is NOT rocket science ... ALL the classes are very easy to learn and play. </p><p>I don't know maybe theres a bunch of dumbasses playing this game, but i had to use my cousins tank the other day (I usually play a healer), and maybe it took me an hour to figure out his CA and buffs. After that I was able to use him fine ... I was even commended in the group and asked if i had a tank. </p><p>its really not that hard and i don't know why people think it is. I mean do people just say its tough to feed thier own ego or what?</p></blockquote>You are right.  In fact, we just should have a button to hit if we want to be lvl 70.  It's stupid to stroke the ego of the people who worked to be there.  What were we thinking? </blockquote>and where in my post did i say we should skip the leveling process?

[ZachSpastic]

<cite>Tuetatesu wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I agree with some of the posts.  Betraying should be just about faction, not class.</p><p> However, I do wish there was some quest you could do to change your class to another archtype.  That would be fantastic</p><p> OH, and a quest to change your crafting archtype. =P</p></blockquote>I think that's the Create Character quest on the character select screen. It's a repeatable quest which will reward you with a World of Adventure.

[Jblaze2]

<cite>Ravaan wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mantell wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I don't know if it's a good idea though. I'd hate to find out that the reason I keep dying is because the level 70 Warden in my group was a Templar last week and has no idea what his spells do. Or that the Guardian tanking was a Brawler last Tuesday and hasn't got used to his lack of Feign Death.</p></blockquote><p> oh please for the love of god can we stop with the nonsense that changing classes would be so incredibly complicated. this game is NOT rocket science ... ALL the classes are very easy to learn and play. </p><p>I don't know maybe theres a bunch of dumbasses playing this game, but i had to use my cousins tank the other day (I usually play a healer), and maybe it took me an hour to figure out his CA and buffs. After that I was able to use him fine ... I was even commended in the group and asked if i had a tank. </p><p>its really not that hard and i don't know why people think it is. I mean do people just say its tough to feed thier own ego or what?</p></blockquote>I agree. I just made a defiler and power leveled him to 20 with collections. I have never played this class in my life. I sat, looked at all the combat arts. Figured out my game plan, went to SH with a group and the MT said "wow, this is the first time i join a group with my low lvl alt and the healer actually knows what they're doing" (I think he said this cause i was steady curing everything) It's not that hard.

[Chay]

No... this would be a bad idea. If you don't like the class you play start a new character. Frankly I'm tired of the whole betrayal thing. I understand that some people like it because they enjoy being counter cultural (a ogre Illusionist living in Willow Wood or the new great thing a Fae Necro). It amuses them to do so. What I don't get is why people want a SHORT CUT to end game. If you play a class and don't like it start over. If we allow jumping archetypes why not allow us to change race and gender and names and scurry off to the Buff Bot so that we don't have to work for anything? Sure you worked on your current class and that's fine but if you're bored with it start over. Its always best to look at what a class can do before you play it. If you want to just try something out go to the test server and play a bit.

[bubbaj6]

<cite>ZachSpastic wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think that's the Create Character quest on the character select screen. It's a repeatable quest which will reward you with a World of Adventure. </blockquote> LOL!

[SignumX]

I'd like to see this as well, classes in the archetype play pretty similiarly and we are stuck with only 6 slots so why not? You dont learn anything new lvlin' a new fighter up to 70 that you couldnt in about a week of playing your switched class. Tanks tank, Healers heal, etc rest is nothing but details.

[Surething]

So... instead of going a betrayal route.  Why not start in the desired city from the beginning?

[RipFlex]

<p>I can see the OP point, and his good intentions.  But I also see an exploit.  I just Power Level in the easiest class of said Arch-type and betray to the more difficult one later one.  Same with TSing, and those that are Tradeskillers know there are EASY leveling Tradeskilling like Provisioning and big Coin makers like Sage.  Just to pick any TS after you level to 70th on an EASY TS and hop on let's say Scribe for pumping out AD3s for plat...</p><p>If this was possible I would do it in a heartbeat. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Agaxiq]

Ripescence@Guk wrote: <blockquote><p>I can see the OP point, and his good intentions.  But I also see an exploit.  I just Power Level in the easiest class of said Arch-type and betray to the more difficult one later one.  Same with TSing, and those that are Tradeskillers know there are EASY leveling Tradeskilling like Provisioning and big Coin makers like Sage.  Just to pick any TS after you level to 70th on an EASY TS and hop on let's say Scribe for pumping out AD3s for plat...</p><p>If this was possible I would do it in a heartbeat. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote> Well, my suggestion for "tradeskill betrayal" would include a level reset.  Otherwise yes, you would just level a sage up to 70 and then "betray" to be a class that would normally take longer. So if you leveled your sage up to 70 but wanted to become a tailor, you would de-level to level 9 artisan and lose all your recipes and skills above level 9. agressiv