What do u expect a swashie to do?

[Armae]

<p> Iv been back for a month or so now,since about a 6 month hiatus.I guess u could call me old school swashie now lol...stuck throu it in the dark days of swashbuckler when groups were more afraid of us then the mobs<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.Anyways i learned my class solo,and group,raids whatever.Now it would seem things have changed a lot.Swashies have a lot to offer a group.But im curious what do non-swashies expect from a swashie when u group up with a swashie?</p><p> With the AA lines we can do a lot of dps,but we can also enable the rest of the group to do more damage,as well take less damage,crowd control,etc,but at the sacrifice of our own dps parse.Swashies are one of the most versatile classes,one of the main reason i loved to play them,even way back when.But im sorta wondering now if swashies have been pigeon holed into a dps only class?My server it would seem that is a common belief.</p><p> So,what do you think?</p>

[Lornick]

When I bring a swashbuckler into a group it's to fill out a dps slot.  One of the things you mentioned was being able to make the rest of the group do more damage.  That's cool as long as the net damage gained is more then your personal damage lost.  I'd leave the crowd control stuff to enchanters and troubs.

[TheSource123]

<p>Swashies are DPS in raids and hybrid in groups. When not in raids they can do everything, pretty much as good as every other class (Although plate tanks, obviously, out tank them, and necroes, obviously, out-DPS them). They are (in groups) overpowered IMO, and generally don't require much skill to play decently, although SOE was definitly aiming for a DPS class, and that's what they will be with some tweaking. You're DPS and group utility is in the right spot, I just wish they had some squishyness to go with it, because they are basically what Monks/Bruisers (should) have been, but with a lot more DPS.</p><p> Overall, very flexible class, if a bit too flexible.</p>

[Jrral]

Well, that depends on group size. In a small group, 3-4 people, I'd be looking purely at the swashie's personal DPS output. The basic make-up of a good group is a tank, a healer and damage output, either casters or melee/ranged DPS. With a small group, I'd be looking to fill those slots with matching types. In a larger group, 5-6 people, that changes. There's room in those additional 2 slots for things other than the basic 4 types without leaving out any of the basics. There a swashie spec'd for more buffs at the expense of personal DPS can shine because they don't have to fill the primary DPS role themselves  and the buffs will bump up the guy who is filling that role nicely. Now, a pure-DPS build has the advantage that it'll fit with both large <i>and</i> small groups, so you'll have more opportunities. But personally I'm a big fan of finding out what the character likes to do and then aiming to maximize that, and let grouping opportunities fall where they may.

[TheSource123]

Jrral@Unrest wrote: <blockquote>Well, that depends on group size. In a small group, 3-4 people, I'd be looking purely at the swashie's personal DPS output. The basic make-up of a good group is a tank, a healer and damage output, either casters or melee/ranged DPS. With a small group, I'd be looking to fill those slots with matching types. In a larger group, 5-6 people, that changes. There's room in those additional 2 slots for things other than the basic 4 types without leaving out any of the basics. There a swashie spec'd for more buffs at the expense of personal DPS can shine because they don't have to fill the primary DPS role themselves  and the buffs will bump up the guy who is filling that role nicely. Now, a pure-DPS build has the advantage that it'll fit with both large <i>and</i> small groups, so you'll have more opportunities. But personally I'm a big fan of finding out what the character likes to do and then aiming to maximize that, and let grouping opportunities fall where they may. </blockquote> This guy has the right idea.

[zaun2]

I've had swashies as main tanks in a pinch.  Other than having to be more careful on heals, they worked out well.  If a swashy can hold agro, I can periodically use oberon, which with the AA, and it at M1, can almost assure the swashy stays up for the 36 seconds.

[tass]

lol when I get into a grp with a brig the gloves are off. Were both dekced in good armor with masters and kick [Removed for Content] weapons and aa's. Hundereds of thousands of dmg flies with mobs running all over trying to kill either 1 of us. More than once ive had tanks [Removed for Content] at me and a brig for screwing around having a [Removed for Content] contest. Funner than hell though. Also if u dont know how to work those swash spells you are useless in raids and are sub par in grps. Useing a swashies spells the wrong way can easily knock him right off any parser, using them the right way can climb him to the top. Ive seen both kinds of swashies in grps and raids. Thankfully im 1 of the ones that knows how to use the spells lol.

[TheSource123]

<cite>tass wrote:</cite><blockquote>lol when I get into a grp with a brig the gloves are off. Were both dekced in good armor with masters and kick [I cannot control my vocabulary] weapons and aa's. Hundereds of thousands of dmg flies with mobs running all over trying to kill either 1 of us. More than once ive had tanks [I cannot control my vocabulary] at me and a brig for screwing around having a [Removed for Content] contest. Funner than hell though. Also if u dont know how to work those swash spells you are useless in raids and are sub par in grps. Useing a swashies spells the wrong way can easily knock him right off any parser, using them the right way can climb him to the top. Ive seen both kinds of swashies in grps and raids. Thankfully im 1 of the ones that knows how to use the spells lol. </blockquote><p>This is a good example of what I was talking about. The class is far too versatile, and if it is a hybrid class, it shouldn't be great at everything, just good/ok at everything. Because right now people who use words like funner and dekced are outparsing and outtanking and outdebuffing people who know how to proofread a [Removed for Content] post. A good Swashy is insane, and a bad Swashy is good.</p><p>=/ </p>

[liveja]

<cite>TheSource123 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>This is a good example of what I was talking about. The class is far too versatile, and if it is a hybrid class, it shouldn't be great at everything, just good/ok at everything. Because right now people who use words like funner and dekced are outparsing and outtanking and outdebuffing people who know how to proofread a [I cannot control my vocabulary] post. A good Swashy is insane, and a bad Swashy is good. </p></blockquote><p>1. I cannot out-tank any real tank that knows what he/she is doing & has the armor for it. I might be able to tank "as well" as a real tank, if I were spec'd & geared for it, but my DPS will not be as high as it is now. The two are a trade-off. Bear that in mind.</p><p>2. Any competent Necro, Wizzie, Assassin, or Ranger will out-parse me, unless they're sleeping. Warlocks will run neck-&-neck with me, tho a really good one will out-parse me. Really good Chanters will also out-parse me in certain situations. These are simple observations that I have seen repeated over & over & over again, in single-group & raid situations. </p><p>3. When it comes to debuffing, I cannot approach the goodness a Brigand brings, & I'm pretty sure there are other debuffing classes that are as good as Swashies, if not better.</p><p>4. A bad Swashy is a bad Swashy, & has just as many issues as does a bad player of any other class. They don't know how, when, or why to use poisons. They don't know how or when to use the Hideaway line to drop aggro. They don't upgrade their de-aggro CAs or the Swarthy line; they might not even know the Swarthy line exists, or who to cast it on. They use their AOE attacks constantly without paying attention to whether or not adds are near. They don't know how to let a tank get aggro before they unleash their attacks. All of those issues will cause a group wipe, & having those issues means you are not "good", you're a bad player who will bring more bad to a group than good, & who should be avoided or else taught how to play.</p><p>5. If people are going to talk about how "over-powered" we are, they really ought to look at all the facts. We Swashies are an excellent, well-rounded class. In the right hands, yea, we can easily appear to be "over-powered", but only until we're compared to good, experienced players of other classes, & then things even out.</p><p>As to the OP's question: we are a DPS/debuff class. IMHO, in a group, you should be concentrating on those two aspects, & that is what other players should be expecting of us.</p>

[-AtPlay-]

<cite>Armae wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>  So,what do you think?</p></blockquote>I expect a swashie to have my [Removed for Content] sammich ready for me when I get home.  And would it hurt to shave every now and then?  Ohh, losing a couple pounds wouldnt hurt either...

[doctorbow]

<cite>livejazz wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>TheSource123 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>This is a good example of what I was talking about. The class is far too versatile, and if it is a hybrid class, it shouldn't be great at everything, just good/ok at everything. Because right now people who use words like funner and dekced are outparsing and outtanking and outdebuffing people who know how to proofread a [I cannot control my vocabulary] post. A good Swashy is insane, and a bad Swashy is good. </p></blockquote><p>1. I cannot out-tank any real tank that knows what he/she is doing & has the armor for it. I might be able to tank "as well" as a real tank, if I were spec'd & geared for it, but my DPS will not be as high as it is now. The two are a trade-off. Bear that in mind.</p><p>2. Any competent Necro, Wizzie, Assassin, or Ranger will out-parse me, unless they're sleeping. Warlocks will run neck-&-neck with me, tho a really good one will out-parse me. Really good Chanters will also out-parse me in certain situations. These are simple observations that I have seen repeated over & over & over again, in single-group & raid situations. </p><p>3. When it comes to debuffing, I cannot approach the goodness a Brigand brings, & I'm pretty sure there are other debuffing classes that are as good as Swashies, if not better.</p><p>4. A bad Swashy is a bad Swashy, & has just as many issues as does a bad player of any other class. They don't know how, when, or why to use poisons. They don't know how or when to use the Hideaway line to drop aggro. They don't upgrade their de-aggro CAs or the Swarthy line; they might not even know the Swarthy line exists, or who to cast it on. They use their AOE attacks constantly without paying attention to whether or not adds are near. They don't know how to let a tank get aggro before they unleash their attacks. All of those issues will cause a group wipe, & having those issues means you are not "good", you're a bad player who will bring more bad to a group than good, & who should be avoided or else taught how to play.</p><p>5. If people are going to talk about how "over-powered" we are, they really ought to look at all the facts. We Swashies are an excellent, well-rounded class. In the right hands, yea, we can easily appear to be "over-powered", but only until we're compared to good, experienced players of other classes, & then things even out.</p><p>As to the OP's question: we are a DPS/debuff class. IMHO, in a group, you should be concentrating on those two aspects, & that is what other players should be expecting of us.</p></blockquote> SO well put.  70 swash here. As to being an easy class to play...  It's really difficult to justify ANY class being a 'hard' class to play.  There are different challenges in different situations, and as a swash, I realize that one of our TRUE strengths is versatility and adaptability.  In a really shoddy group, to be honest, a well-played swashbuckler CAN appear over-powered, simply because we DO have access to a lot of utility that another class may not have, or know how to use properly.  And we can be extremely useful in many situations, so it is pretty asinine to say that knowing WHEN to use abilities makes you an EASY class.  I could just as easily say a Wiz is an 'easy' class because they can root a mob and 'fairly' safely nuke it to death, with fairly little risk.  Is that fair? or make a wiz seem overpowered? Nah, they just know their abilities, and can use them to advantage, same as I am able to. I can mez, but not like a mezzer. I can tank, but not like a plate.  We're 'survival' tankers... I can DPS, but not like a wiz. I can shuffle aggro pretty well... There's not a SINGLE thing that a swash does better than ANY other class.  And as a 'hybrid' class, we're NOT great at everything.  Merely OK at most everything, with better-than-average DPS.  And, the DPS doesn't come easy.  When I was younger and had only adept 1's, and afew adept III's, I had a semi-Fabled, (some)Master-spelled swash asking ME what I was doing differently to outparse him by about 200 dmg, consistantly.  Again, it comes down to a matter of not just mindlessly pushing buttons, but knowing what skills to use, and WHEN, that is important. But D*MN we bring the sexy, better than anyone.

[Mew]

Generally, swashies make great dps and a good off-tank.  On raids we frequently use them as MA's.  Naturally, evac is still a necessity.  

[Kellin]

<p>ANY well-played class, with even half decent gear and spells, can seem overpowered.  Every class has its strengths and weaknesses, and it's the people who learn everything their class can do and learn when to apply it that really shine.</p><p>One of my regular group buddies plays a swashy.  He raid parses 1200-1500 dps, which is respectable enough, but nothing to shout about. (I should note, none of us are fully raid equipped.  Most have Adept 3s, a few masters, and a few pieces of fabled.  Rest will be legendary and mastercrafted.  Our raid group is currently parsing 10-14K.)  He routinely leads the parse, and he's baffled by it.  The only time someone outparses him is either when his poisons drop, or we're fighting particularly high mitigation single targets, and then the brigand will pass him.</p><p>Why is he so great?  Not so much because he's a swashy, but because he knows his class, knows its capabilities, studies his AP lines and maximizes his potential.</p><p>Work hard, grasshopper, and you too can be just as uber!</p>

[Krontak]

<cite>TheSource123 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Swashies are DPS in raids and hybrid in groups. When not in raids they can do everything, pretty much as good as every other class (Although plate tanks, obviously, out tank them, and necroes, obviously, out-DPS them). They are (in groups) overpowered IMO, and generally don't require much skill to play decently, although SOE was definitly aiming for a DPS class, and that's what they will be with some tweaking. You're DPS and group utility is in the right spot, I just wish they had some squishyness to go with it, because they are basically what Monks/Bruisers (should) have been, but with a lot more DPS.</p><p> Overall, very flexible class, if a bit too flexible.</p></blockquote><p> Wow, every post you make just keeps going downhill.  I'm surprised you're still posting at this point as it becomes more and more obvious you're reaching and haven't the slightest clue about much at all.  The position a swashbuckler is in at this point has nothing to do with your ineffectiveness in raiding.  You are turning into the contradiction king.  You first state,</p><p>When not in raids they can do everything, pretty much as good as every other class...</p><p>Why even say that if in the following quotations you begin to negate anything you just stated?  That's like saying, "I am the highest dps'er, except of course for Ranger, Necromancer, Wizard, Warlock, Illusionist, Templar, Conjurer, Beserker, etc., etc, etc.."  </p><p>I'm thinking first off, you should play the game more than a couple months before you begin to become biased towards any sort class.  You might have more credibility in anything you post cause at this moment, you're becoming the joke of the forums.  Secondly, you're "friend" that cannot play might just be a better player than you, ever stop to think about that?</p><p>You should probably begin to focus more on the short commings of the bruisers/monks in raid/group situations.  You don't really have to focus on the solo'ing aspect because if anyone ever tried competing with bruiser/monks on farming contested zones, you will soon realize they are King.  Sure some classes can possibly solo more difficult encounters but nobody can rip through a zone as efficiently as a bruiser/monk.  </p><p>Its pretty common knowledge that avoidance tanking has been an issue for a long long time.  I think if you're truely serious about improving this game it would be to focus on improving avoidance tanking through corespondance on the forums.  Focusing on lessoning the abilities of one class will not improve your ability to tank in the slightest bit. </p><p>As far as our role, we are great for our aggro transfer ability coupled with our deaggro that help a tank out with maintaining aggro quite effectively.  We have a few offensive/defensive/mitigation debuffs and a magic/mental debuff.  We do excellent dps but are not top end dps.  We have no healing abilities. We do not have any big nukes that many of the other DPS classes bring to the table that are required on some burns but we have a great ability to provide constant dps.</p>

[Siclone]

<p>Swashies are one of the elite classes here on EQ2 --they can pump the dps out as well as any, have flexiablity and utility as much or more then any and rule PVP with and iron fist,,,,have for a long time too.  I dont suspect a nerf of anykind.</p><p>The 3 elite classes I see, are nerco's , the best dps and tons of utility and flexablity</p><p>Furries as healers since they can heal well and put out some DPS.</p><p>and Swashies for the DPS and utility.  </p>

[TheSource123]

<cite>livejazz wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>TheSource123 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>This is a good example of what I was talking about. The class is far too versatile, and if it is a hybrid class, it shouldn't be great at everything, just good/ok at everything. Because right now people who use words like funner and dekced are outparsing and outtanking and outdebuffing people who know how to proofread a [I cannot control my vocabulary] post. A good Swashy is insane, and a bad Swashy is good. </p></blockquote><p>1. I cannot out-tank any real tank that knows what he/she is doing & has the armor for it. I might be able to tank "as well" as a real tank, if I were spec'd & geared for it, but my DPS will not be as high as it is now. The two are a trade-off. Bear that in mind.</p><p>2. Any competent Necro, Wizzie, Assassin, or Ranger will out-parse me, unless they're sleeping. Warlocks will run neck-&-neck with me, tho a really good one will out-parse me. Really good Chanters will also out-parse me in certain situations. These are simple observations that I have seen repeated over & over & over again, in single-group & raid situations. </p><p>3. When it comes to debuffing, I cannot approach the goodness a Brigand brings, & I'm pretty sure there are other debuffing classes that are as good as Swashies, if not better.</p><p>4. A bad Swashy is a bad Swashy, & has just as many issues as does a bad player of any other class. They don't know how, when, or why to use poisons. They don't know how or when to use the Hideaway line to drop aggro. They don't upgrade their de-aggro CAs or the Swarthy line; they might not even know the Swarthy line exists, or who to cast it on. They use their AOE attacks constantly without paying attention to whether or not adds are near. They don't know how to let a tank get aggro before they unleash their attacks. All of those issues will cause a group wipe, & having those issues means you are not "good", you're a bad player who will bring more bad to a group than good, & who should be avoided or else taught how to play.</p><p>5. If people are going to talk about how "over-powered" we are, they really ought to look at all the facts. We Swashies are an excellent, well-rounded class. In the right hands, yea, we can easily appear to be "over-powered", but only until we're compared to good, experienced players of other classes, & then things even out.</p><p>As to the OP's question: we are a DPS/debuff class. IMHO, in a group, you should be concentrating on those two aspects, & that is what other players should be expecting of us.</p></blockquote><p>I guess I was just too used to playing an "underpowered" class that I didn't know how to react when I played a "normal" class. =/</p><p>Brigand is fun, though. </p>

[Illyakuran]

<p>My wife expects me to take out the garbage before it starts smelling like a troll bruiser on a hot day in Maj'Dul. That and look good in my hat.</p><p>What I'm expected to do in groups varies a lot by the group size and the zone but it's usually for the debuffs, hate transfer, dps, and group stealth. I'm only asked to tank when there isn't a tank class to be found, which is not often. I'm not asked to mezz and when I do someone usually breaks it even when I warn that I'm mezzing an add. With the short duration of the mezz and the downtime between when it wears off and is usable again it's mostly good for helping the healer(s) get the damage the tank is taking under control. If the tank gets squished then I'm expected to step in and buy the healer time to get the tank back up, but if it's a plate healer that's any good they are often better off just sucking up the hits and healing themselves until the tank is back up and ready.</p><p>I'm usually the filler spot that could be occupied by a troub, dirge, monk, bruiser, or paladin. Swashies bring some nice to have things to a group, not the need to have things.</p>

[tass]

    ol this sounds like a nerf swashy thread above anything. Of course before this thread it was a nerf pet classes. Heh and we all know how that turned out as pet classes still own face. I really dont see what the problem is. Is it that ur [Removed for Content] that ur class isnt the top? Or that another class has utilities and not you? Or that another class laughes at ur mage in grps when the parser comes in? I know when im called to a grp im expected to debuff that [Removed for Content] and use all my spells to beat the living hell out of it. And that dmg doesn't comer freely theres always a price. Gold apon gold apon gold goes into those master spells and fabled knifes. When I raid with a swash if you know how to work all of the spells correctly as ive stated I will make the parserers. Usually its a battle between ur wiz, pet classes, and rouges. And sometimes that sick guardian lol. Mind you this is all with people who have the right gear and the right spells and the right knowledge. If you dont have any of that say goodbye to any good dps whatsoever. A wizard can out dps a swash or even a pet class. I know because I have with the aa's placed where they should be. The same goes with a pet class. If you dont know EXACTLY how those spells are used you lose. Some people say it doesnt matter and just to mash any button as fast as u can because it takes no skill. And then they whine because another class outparses them.

[Armae]

<cite>tass wrote:</cite><blockquote>    ol this sounds like a nerf swashy thread above anything. Of course before this thread it was a nerf pet classes. Heh and we all know how that turned out as pet classes still own face. I really dont see what the problem is. Is it that ur [Removed for Content] that ur class isnt the top? Or that another class has utilities and not you? Or that another class laughes at ur mage in grps when the parser comes in? I know when im called to a grp im expected to debuff that [I cannot control my vocabulary] and use all my spells to beat the living hell out of it. And that dmg doesn't comer freely theres always a price. Gold apon gold apon gold goes into those master spells and fabled knifes. When I raid with a swash if you know how to work all of the spells correctly as ive stated I will make the parserers. Usually its a battle between ur wiz, pet classes, and rouges. And sometimes that sick guardian lol. Mind you this is all with people who have the right gear and the right spells and the right knowledge. If you dont have any of that say goodbye to any good dps whatsoever. A wizard can out dps a swash or even a pet class. I know because I have with the aa's placed where they should be. The same goes with a pet class. If you dont know EXACTLY how those spells are used you lose. Some people say it doesnt matter and just to mash any button as fast as u can because it takes no skill. And then they whine because another class outparses them. </blockquote> <span style="color: #ff0000">Who are you responding to?...did you even read the OP?...I think its a legitimate question as obviously do some of the other posters.With AA you can make your swashy a little unique from other swashies..you are not forced by the game mechanics to follow the same path.As i originally stated it was my belief that swashies were perhaps expected to forgoe any extra debuffage possible and to "choose" to soley focus on increasing DPS.How you translate this into "nerf swashies"..as you seem to have managed im not quite sure...but uhm i guess ty for responding anyways?..i think?</span>

[Siclone]

<cite>tass wrote:</cite><blockquote>    ol this sounds like a nerf swashy thread above anything. Of course before this thread it was a nerf pet classes. Heh and we all know how that turned out as pet classes still own face. I really dont see what the problem is. Is it that ur [Removed for Content] that ur class isnt the top? Or that another class has utilities and not you? Or that another class laughes at ur mage in grps when the parser comes in? I know when im called to a grp im expected to debuff that [I cannot control my vocabulary] and use all my spells to beat the living hell out of it. And that dmg doesn't comer freely theres always a price. Gold apon gold apon gold goes into those master spells and fabled knifes. When I raid with a swash if you know how to work all of the spells correctly as ive stated I will make the parserers. Usually its a battle between ur wiz, pet classes, and rouges. And sometimes that sick guardian lol. Mind you this is all with people who have the right gear and the right spells and the right knowledge. If you dont have any of that say goodbye to any good dps whatsoever. A wizard can out dps a swash or even a pet class. I know because I have with the aa's placed where they should be. The same goes with a pet class. If you dont know EXACTLY how those spells are used you lose. Some people say it doesnt matter and just to mash any button as fast as u can because it takes no skill. And then they whine because another class outparses them. </blockquote><p>Funny, I did not hear anyone call for a nerf to swashies....but now that you mention it</p><p>People get bitter yes, when they spend 6 months and tons of time and money making there toon the best it can be and some other toon comes by and owns it in  almost every situation,,,,yea that sucks ..and then the person who has the uber class tells the other</p><p>"learn how to play your toon"  That's always the fall back.  When they don't have facts to present </p><p>Oh are swashies the only one that pays gold for masters? Interesting, and gold for fabled daggers? Sorry all good fabled are no trade.</p><p>And the rest of your post don't make much scenes so I cant commit </p>

[tass]

well this is 1 of the posts I was refering to. Plus you shouldnt be a conspiracy theary person. Not everyone out to get ya lol. <cite>tass wrote:</cite><blockquote>lol when I get into a grp with a brig the gloves are off. Were both dekced in good armor with masters and kick [I cannot control my vocabulary] weapons and aa's. Hundereds of thousands of dmg flies with mobs running all over trying to kill either 1 of us. More than once ive had tanks [I cannot control my vocabulary] at me and a brig for screwing around having a [Removed for Content] contest. Funner than hell though. Also if u dont know how to work those swash spells you are useless in raids and are sub par in grps. Useing a swashies spells the wrong way can easily knock him right off any parser, using them the right way can climb him to the top. Ive seen both kinds of swashies in grps and raids. Thankfully im 1 of the ones that knows how to use the spells lol. </blockquote><p>This is a good example of what I was talking about. The class is far too versatile, and if it is a hybrid class, it shouldn't be great at everything, just good/ok at everything. Because right now people who use words like funner and dekced are outparsing and outtanking and outdebuffing people who know how to proofread a [I cannot control my vocabulary] post. A good Swashy is insane, and a bad Swashy is good.</p> And yes skill does matter. The swash class is only as good as you make it. The same goes for every other dpsing class out there. If you chose wrong in aa's or anything u wont be up to par. If u screw up anywhere u wont be up to par. You can berate it all day long its still true. Its true for sorcerers, scouts, pet classes all of em. Plus if u remember the swash wasn't always the best either. They used to suck. Of course every class used to suck. Wizards, pets, alot of scouts except some who now suck but wont name any class in particular.