Do Berserkers need a boost in DPS? [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

farcryfromdawow

04-08-2007, 02:06 AM

Zerks deserve a dps boost imo. They keep agro by dps and not by taunts. A zerks taunts are longer cast then other tanks. Guardians virtually are threat machines and paladins have amends. SK's well they have all sorts things to do to get threat but rarely just MT. A zerk in my opinion is far behind in putting out threat and dps. Have you seen guardians DPS lately with DPS AA spec??? My concern is that zerks need more quicker taunts or increased threat. We need more DPS. This isn't a whine but a examination from in game vs the Guardian and other tanks. Berserkers got hosed and put in the back in terms of DPS and threat. A zerker can parse high on multiple mobs with his ae's but thats every minute+ and destruction isn't exactly a quick casting AE ability. Our DPS against a target lets say in raid thats on a wizard or necro is hard for us to pull agro to get the mob off. SImply our DPS is lower, our TAUNTS have longer recast timers and we are left to push Rescue which fails allot. Monks bruisers turn on their little agro things and pull off so quickly. So do SK's and Pally, while Zerks are little left behind. Either we MT and tank AA spec to be decent and then loose agro constantly because our DPS is so low or we AA DPS spec and our tankability is low. Its hard for them as tank spec to pull agro to get mobs off raid people, which basicly means they are worthless tank spec. We need Zerks DPS boosted or threat increased somehow to give them the ability to tank decent plus hold agro. A guardian now is TOP DOG on tank + DPS. They go DPS spec and can tank really nice + DPS really well. A guardian DPS AA spec with same group setup as zerker can just pull the mob off anyone easy. Not using rescue. I just want my Zerker to be a viable offtank in pulling mobs off people in raids when they agro them from to much DPS and draging back to MT. I think you gave monks bruisers the luxery of pulling agro whenever they want is wrong, why can't a zerker do that? SK have ways to do this to quickly deathmarch etc. + taunts without using Rescue. Zerks get what? Slow taunts, relay on using Rescue with a long cooldown to pull agro. I would apreciate it and the Zerker community if you would take a look at zerker DPS threat and agro management vs Guardians for raiding. Its true zerks can DPS high but only on multiple targets with AE's on Destruction Open wounds etc; but thats every 2min almost, plus slow cast timer on destruction. I am saying Zerk DPS is way below Guardians and well below what it should be to normally make them be a viable offtank on raids anymore. Zerks voice your opinions please let the DEVS hear and adjust us. We are suppose to be the DPS tank and thats where we get our threat from is DPS. Guardians have better version of our taunting defense etc and can still out DPS us on single targets and hold agro better. Being a zerker you only got 1 option to be able to offtank well and thats going DPS spec. Tank spec makes you a complete useless tank class. What do you Zerks think?

Kaleyen

04-08-2007, 02:34 AM

Umm, no.

Ciarr

04-08-2007, 03:46 AM

I think you need to upgrade your CAs/taunts beyond app1.... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Supernova17

04-08-2007, 04:08 AM

Zerks have the slowest taunts...they need quicker taunts? LOL......what the heck........ News to me Upgrade your Taunts and CA's, get some hate / damage proc'ing items and adornemts, grab a Dirge/Coercer and go. Your standard taunts are like .5s or less casting time and they share the same reuse timers as all the other fighters last time I looked. Guardian DPS through AA's? I'm assuming you mean the Buckler and double attack lines, which are both open to Zerkers as well in the Warrior tree... Zerks are aggro machines, seriously what is this post for? (Note: I play my own 70 Zerker and ShadowKnight alts in the high end group zones and the occasional KoS raid MT'ing and am constantly testing the limits of my guild's Zerker when I'm in Warlock mode on my Conjuror doing 2.5-3k dps average, 7-8k spike AOE damage on trash)

Randell44

04-08-2007, 05:43 AM

Sure give them more DPS and more BESERKER!!! flavored special abilties that not only inspire threat but fear. In return however make them wear leather, have higher hp, and yet have less avoidance than monks...but would also have a self buff that let them ignore a certain amount of melee dmg per hit. But then again I prefer the D & D or historical version of beserkers. Wild warriors who traded defense for offense in thier battle lust and took punishment they shouldn't have been able to take. This vs the current version which is a guardian with slighlty more DPS.

danmuntz

04-08-2007, 09:12 AM

<cite>farcryfromdawow wrote:</cite><blockquote> A guardian now is TOP DOG on tank + DPS. They go DPS spec and can tank really nice + DPS really well. A guardian DPS AA spec with same group setup as zerker can just pull the mob off anyone easy. Not using rescue. Are you kidding me? Zerkers out DPS Guards anyday. Sure Guards might be more defensive, but that's at the trade of DPS. I just want my Zerker to be a viable offtank in pulling mobs off people in raids when they agro them from to much DPS and draging back to MT. I think you gave monks bruisers the luxery of pulling agro whenever they want is wrong, why can't a zerker do that? SK have ways to do this to quickly deathmarch etc. + taunts without using Rescue. Zerks get what? Slow taunts, relay on using Rescue with a long cooldown to pull agro. Sounds to me like you need to recheck your raid group setup. If you're an offtank, you should have hate transfer in your group directed to you. No class, not even a Guardian, can hold a raid's worth of hate (15-20k dps) without help from hate transfers. Pop a Dirge or similar into your offtank group and you'll see a tremendous difference. I am saying Zerk DPS is way below Guardians [...] Buhahahaha, I'm adding this one to my collection of "the funniest stuff posted on the forums" file. Thanks. </blockquote>

kenm

04-08-2007, 11:41 AM

Well, in all honesty +melee skills are loads more important since EoF and zerkers have always been totally shafted there while the defensive counterpart has a group buff for it. (Huh, that makes sense how?) Of course I'm not going to preach that Guardians do more dps, but c'mon what the heck is up with Berserkers anyway? Guardians got useful AAs, such as reduction off rescue, reinforcement, and even more double attack. The Berserker tree is absolute freaking garbage, with not a single AA standing out as being moderately useful. The EoF Guardian pants have a god-like 35 second reduction on reinforcement, EoF Berserker pants have... 10 health regen? What kind of a freaking tradeoff is that? That's just purely getting screwed over. And speaking of health regen, why the hell do Berserkers even get such garbage while Guardians get the straight +hp buff? /cry Personally, if I wasn't fully mastered I've had betrayed to a Guardian long ago.

uux

04-08-2007, 02:43 PM

The +melee skills that a guardian gets is pretty much one of the only offensive buffs that class gets. Compare that to what a berserker gets and yes, it is quite a bit less offensive. By ignoring the big picture it sure does sound like guardians have it better. They don't. Do yourself a favor and don't worry about what a guardian gets. There is a number of reasons why certain abilities do not compare equally when examined alone, like the passive Taunting Defense vs Hold the Line abilities. Berserkers also have Weapon Aegis, Open Wounds, Destruction, Insolent Gibe, Wall of Ferocity, frontal barrage, and an encounter proc on the offensive stance (and yes, I tank offensive a lot). That's a lot of AE aggro that a guardian does not have. I left out an encounter AE and another out of encounter AE because a guardian also has similar. With that in mind, why should the berserker passive hate when hit ability be better than or equal to a guardians? Also, a guardian's is completely useless when solo. Comparing EoF AA trees and EoF fabled gear sets is a joke as well. There is not much they can add to the berserker class and not make it a bit overpowering. Guardians get a reduction in the timer of Reinforcement? So what. If they need to use it more often that means they're losing aggro more often. It's a recovery tool. Berserkers have defensive options as well. Longer mitigation buffs, bigger debuffs. Discredit them if you like, but they exist and believe it or not they have a use. Berserkers can increase their AE damage and reduce taunt resists. That's even more aggro. Berserkers maintain aggro just fine. We're a little less effecient at aggro recovery with only one ability that increases hate position, but that is hardly a problem if your group/raid acknowledges that aggro management is a team effort. Personally, if I wasn't fully mastered I've had betrayed to a Guardian long ago. "long ago", eh? So, you could have been a fully mastered guardian by now. Obviously something has kept you as a berserker. I guess the grass isn't so much greener on the other side that it's worth switching.

Kaleyen

04-08-2007, 03:25 PM

Zerkers already do more DPS while tanking and while not tanking then a Guardian, and actually every other plate fighter (with some exceptions to the SK when not tanking). So what exactly is the problem? [Removed for Content], Zerkers are the #2 Raid tank and can do the most DPS of the plate fighters (again with some exceptions to the SK when not tanking).

kenm

04-08-2007, 03:35 PM

<cite>uux wrote:</cite><blockquote>The +melee skills that a guardian gets is pretty much one of the only offensive buffs that class gets. Compare that to what a berserker gets and yes, it is quite a bit less offensive. By ignoring the big picture it sure does sound like guardians have it better. They don't. Do yourself a favor and don't worry about what a guardian gets. Except when the berserker only hits the mob 50% of the time unless grouped with somebody that buffs melee skills, while the guardian doesn't have anywhere near that issue kind of makes them on par in dps in similar situations single target. There is a number of reasons why certain abilities do not compare equally when examined alone, like the passive Taunting Defense vs Hold the Line abilities. Berserkers also have Weapon Aegis, Open Wounds, Destruction, Insolent Gibe, Wall of Ferocity, frontal barrage, and an encounter proc on the offensive stance (and yes, I tank offensive a lot). That's a lot of AE aggro that a guardian does not have. I left out an encounter AE and another out of encounter AE because a guardian also has similar. With that in mind, why should the berserker passive hate when hit ability be better than or equal to a guardians? Also, a guardian's is completely useless when solo. Oh, you mean how Hold the Line procs 50% of the time for more overall hate as opposed to the Taunting Defense proccing only 20% for less? Reinforcement is *far* more useful than insolent gibe, so what's the issue here? Other than the zerker getting ripped off that is. Wall of Ferocity? Wow, I didn't know guardians lost Wall of Force. The frontal barrage? Utter crap. Unless you're fighting an encounter with at least 3 mobs you benefit moreso from just autoattacking instead, and if you're fighting an encoutner with at least 3 mobs, they're so incredibly uncommon outside of PPR that you're better off popping Open Wounds and autoattacking. In fact, this general rule goes for the other two AOEs bersekers have as well. Destruction and Open Wounds are the only two that make the berserker stand out, and yet for some reason I think I'd much rather, at the very least, have Tower of Stone than both of them. Comparing EoF AA trees and EoF fabled gear sets is a joke as well. There is not much they can add to the berserker class and not make it a bit overpowering. Guardians get a reduction in the timer of Reinforcement? So what. If they need to use it more often that means they're losing aggro more often. It's a recovery tool. Berserkers have defensive options as well. Longer mitigation buffs, bigger debuffs. Discredit them if you like, but they exist and believe it or not they have a use. Berserkers can increase their AE damage and reduce taunt resists. That's even more aggro. Overpowering? You're seriously suggesting that the only way to make EoF fabled berserker pants not overpowering is to put 10 health regen on it? Man, even flowing thought 3 is more useful than that. But that'd be overpowered I guess. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> It doesn't mean they're losing aggro more often, it simply gives them far more aggro generating ability if they use it properly. Memwipes? A complete joke. AE aggro? Reinforcement + Besiege, viola. And say you happen to die twice in a fight for whatever reason. The zerker blows rescue and is completely screwed on the second time, the guard simply goes to reinforcement. Or better yet, uses tower of stone and doesn't die in the first place. Increase AE damage? Even with 5 points in them you're usually better off just freaking autoattacking with double attack instead of wasting the cast time on the crappy things. Berserkers maintain aggro just fine. We're a little less effecient at aggro recovery with only one ability that increases hate position, but that is hardly a problem if your group/raid acknowledges that aggro management is a team effort. Of course we maintain aggro fine, we tank fine as well. It doesn't change the fact that Guardians can parse around 2k dps, have far more skills for surviability and recovering aggro when tanking, and with a good swashy they aren't going to lose AE aggro anyway. Basically, unless your guild only raids PPR there's not exactly a reason to take a Berserker over a Guardian ever. Personally, if I wasn't fully mastered I've had betrayed to a Guardian long ago. "long ago", eh? So, you could have been a fully mastered guardian by now. Obviously something has kept you as a berserker. I guess the grass isn't so much greener on the other side that it's worth switching. It's moreso the fact of me being too lazy to farm more plat, and being attached to something I've spent about 400p getting fully mastered on. </blockquote>I just don't think the slight gap between berserker and guardian dps really justifies all the crap Guardians get over Berserkers in tanking ability. At any rate, of course I've been working on leveling a Guardian up as well. I already love my Guardian more too. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

farcryfromdawow

04-08-2007, 04:13 PM

Kenman@Najena wrote: <blockquote><cite>uux wrote:</cite><blockquote>The +melee skills that a guardian gets is pretty much one of the only offensive buffs that class gets. Compare that to what a berserker gets and yes, it is quite a bit less offensive. By ignoring the big picture it sure does sound like guardians have it better. They don't. Do yourself a favor and don't worry about what a guardian gets. Except when the berserker only hits the mob 50% of the time unless grouped with somebody that buffs melee skills, while the guardian doesn't have anywhere near that issue kind of makes them on par in dps in similar situations single target. There is a number of reasons why certain abilities do not compare equally when examined alone, like the passive Taunting Defense vs Hold the Line abilities. Berserkers also have Weapon Aegis, Open Wounds, Destruction, Insolent Gibe, Wall of Ferocity, frontal barrage, and an encounter proc on the offensive stance (and yes, I tank offensive a lot). That's a lot of AE aggro that a guardian does not have. I left out an encounter AE and another out of encounter AE because a guardian also has similar. With that in mind, why should the berserker passive hate when hit ability be better than or equal to a guardians? Also, a guardian's is completely useless when solo. Oh, you mean how Hold the Line procs 50% of the time for more overall hate as opposed to the Taunting Defense proccing only 20% for less? Reinforcement is *far* more useful than insolent gibe, so what's the issue here? Other than the zerker getting ripped off that is. Wall of Ferocity? Wow, I didn't know guardians lost Wall of Force. The frontal barrage? Utter crap. Unless you're fighting an encounter with at least 3 mobs you benefit moreso from just autoattacking instead, and if you're fighting an encoutner with at least 3 mobs, they're so incredibly uncommon outside of PPR that you're better off popping Open Wounds and autoattacking. In fact, this general rule goes for the other two AOEs bersekers have as well. Destruction and Open Wounds are the only two that make the berserker stand out, and yet for some reason I think I'd much rather, at the very least, have Tower of Stone than both of them. Comparing EoF AA trees and EoF fabled gear sets is a joke as well. There is not much they can add to the berserker class and not make it a bit overpowering. Guardians get a reduction in the timer of Reinforcement? So what. If they need to use it more often that means they're losing aggro more often. It's a recovery tool. Berserkers have defensive options as well. Longer mitigation buffs, bigger debuffs. Discredit them if you like, but they exist and believe it or not they have a use. Berserkers can increase their AE damage and reduce taunt resists. That's even more aggro. Overpowering? You're seriously suggesting that the only way to make EoF fabled berserker pants not overpowering is to put 10 health regen on it? Man, even flowing thought 3 is more useful than that. But that'd be overpowered I guess. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> It doesn't mean they're losing aggro more often, it simply gives them far more aggro generating ability if they use it properly. Memwipes? A complete joke. AE aggro? Reinforcement + Besiege, viola. And say you happen to die twice in a fight for whatever reason. The zerker blows rescue and is completely screwed on the second time, the guard simply goes to reinforcement. Or better yet, uses tower of stone and doesn't die in the first place. Increase AE damage? Even with 5 points in them you're usually better off just freaking autoattacking with double attack instead of wasting the cast time on the crappy things. Berserkers maintain aggro just fine. We're a little less effecient at aggro recovery with only one ability that increases hate position, but that is hardly a problem if your group/raid acknowledges that aggro management is a team effort. Of course we maintain aggro fine, we tank fine as well. It doesn't change the fact that Guardians can parse around 2k dps, have far more skills for surviability and recovering aggro when tanking, and with a good swashy they aren't going to lose AE aggro anyway. Basically, unless your guild only raids PPR there's not exactly a reason to take a Berserker over a Guardian ever. Personally, if I wasn't fully mastered I've had betrayed to a Guardian long ago. "long ago", eh? So, you could have been a fully mastered guardian by now. Obviously something has kept you as a berserker. I guess the grass isn't so much greener on the other side that it's worth switching. It's moreso the fact of me being too lazy to farm more plat, and being attached to something I've spent about 400p getting fully mastered on. </blockquote>I just don't think the slight gap between berserker and guardian dps really justifies all the crap Guardians get over Berserkers in tanking ability. At any rate, of course I've been working on leveling a Guardian up as well. I already love my Guardian more too. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote> Thank you Kenman for pointing those things out. I didn't want to say those things up front in my thread because now its debatable to those who have no idea what they are talking about. Everything Kenman has just said is true. Guardians unlike Zerks can just pickup agro so quickly. As a raid offtank I have little I can do to pull agro off my fellow mages when they get agro, but our guardian tanking can just pull them off no problems in a split second, same for our Paladin and SK. Rescue is there but it to can be resisted and has a 10min recast I think its 10min. The problems is Zerks have issues trying to pull agro to get mobs off others in the offtank position. Zerks have Outrage and Berate taunt. Berate is the lvl 64 taunt which has a long recast but its group encounter taunt not single target. Outrage is the lvl 59 taunt thats single target and it is below lvl 60 taunt, so it is resisted moreso then the Berate taunt even at master 1. I would like to clear up zerker AOE's, we have destruction and open wounds. On many incoming pulls a guard can hold agro on many targets because hes generating threat to all targets that hit him with the 50% proc, we get a 20% with lower threat and in order for us to do good AOE dmg we have to pre cast destruction on pull because its a slow cast and then open wounds. Both of with have almost 2min recast. So how is that useful for a Zerk to get agro off people on multiple targets quick? Plus most of our AOE's other then destruction open wounds get resisted alot at master 1, and im not sure why, plus they are frontal cone area meaning it needs to be done perfectly in front of you to land them and then the recast timers. Sure on pulls before the 5sec mark im poping destruction and open wounds and more then 4 targets AOE for 2-3k DPS parse but thats once every few minutes. Insolent gibe AOE taunt, thats a joke!! Its a lvl 52 AOE taunt with like a 3min recast and resisted almost entirely. If it resists on 1 target in AOE it is fully resisted, the chance for it to be resisted with more then 1 target is almost 100%. Fighting lvl 74+ epic x4 mobs its resisted almost entirely all the time. Rarely do I use mine as its worthless 3min recast plus resistability of it. Other zerks like myself use it to pull agro through walls etc on pulls as it goes through walls and floors so it has to be used carefully. Guardians who can tank really well in DPS AA spec with 1500-2300 dps parses is sick and on top of it have all those special abilities to survive longer and hold agro. We depend on 1 AA setup which is DPS bucklar reversal and double attack, if a zerk isn't MT bucklar reversal is almost useless and double attack isn't all that great. We are forced to go DPS AA spec lines and can't go tank setups because its even harder to get threat up. The question isn't can Zerks MT on this thread its about how Zerks can't offtank to help pull agro quickly and how guards DPS the same or better then us and we have fewer options. As far as EOF fabled set pieces go, I have 3 set pieces. The legs have 10 regen health, thats a joke for Zerks because we have Combative rage which adds a ton of in combat health regen plus blood craze. Why do we need anymore health regen? The 10 regen health on legs vs guardian 35sec off of reinforcement which is awesome. Our EOF set pieces suck majorly and wearing the contested stuff is better.

Supernova17

04-08-2007, 07:19 PM

<cite>farcryfromdawow wrote:</cite><blockquote>Outrage is the lvl 59 taunt thats single target and it is below lvl 60 taunt, so it is resisted moreso then the Berate taunt even at master 1. </blockquote>I'm adding this to my collection of stupidest things ever said on the eq2players forums... Honestly, the level of a spell that cons white to you has NO impact on it's resistibility, only it's quality affects that and the mental resistance of the mob you are fighting (which people in both groups and raids should debuff derrr..). You wanna talk about that garbage, fine I will too. I have Snapping Mandibles M1 on my Conjuror which is a level 57 direct magic damage spell. Before Unabate it has a hit rate of somewhere between 94% and 96%. We Conjuror's have no buffs that increase our casting skills (+disruption) just like you don't have any melee skill buffs except for offensive stance nor do I wear any gear with it, because imo it's garbage especially with Unabate on hand.

uux

04-08-2007, 07:22 PM

Kenman@Najena wrote: <blockquote><cite>uux wrote:</cite><blockquote>The +melee skills that a guardian gets is pretty much one of the only offensive buffs that class gets. Compare that to what a berserker gets and yes, it is quite a bit less offensive. By ignoring the big picture it sure does sound like guardians have it better. They don't. Do yourself a favor and don't worry about what a guardian gets. Except when the berserker only hits the mob 50% of the time unless grouped with somebody that buffs melee skills, while the guardian doesn't have anywhere near that issue kind of makes them on par in dps in similar situations single target. With no melee skill buffer, my hit rate drops to about 65% against mobs in Mistmoore Inner Sanctum and the like. I still don't lose aggro and I still parse over 1K zonewide as MT. Your argument is a joke because the higher con mobs just about effect every class's hit rate. It's not only zerkers. There is a number of reasons why certain abilities do not compare equally when examined alone, like the passive Taunting Defense vs Hold the Line abilities. Berserkers also have Weapon Aegis, Open Wounds, Destruction, Insolent Gibe, Wall of Ferocity, frontal barrage, and an encounter proc on the offensive stance (and yes, I tank offensive a lot). That's a lot of AE aggro that a guardian does not have. I left out an encounter AE and another out of encounter AE because a guardian also has similar. With that in mind, why should the berserker passive hate when hit ability be better than or equal to a guardians? Also, a guardian's is completely useless when solo. Oh, you mean how Hold the Line procs 50% of the time for more overall hate as opposed to the Taunting Defense proccing only 20% for less? Reinforcement is *far* more useful than insolent gibe, so what's the issue here? Other than the zerker getting ripped off that is. Wall of Ferocity? Wow, I didn't know guardians lost Wall of Force. The frontal barrage? Utter crap. Unless you're fighting an encounter with at least 3 mobs you benefit moreso from just autoattacking instead, and if you're fighting an encoutner with at least 3 mobs, they're so incredibly uncommon outside of PPR that you're better off popping Open Wounds and autoattacking. In fact, this general rule goes for the other two AOEs bersekers have as well. Destruction and Open Wounds are the only two that make the berserker stand out, and yet for some reason I think I'd much rather, at the very least, have Tower of Stone than both of them. The hate on Taunting Defense is less, but there's also a damage portion. Argue it however you want to. While a guardian's can be outright resisted, ours has a chance to land the damage portion when the taunt is resisted. The lower proc rate is justified when you look at the big picture, which you still don't seem to be able to do. Do you know the difference between Wall of Ferocity and Wall of Force? Apparently you do not. I shouldn't even bother asking. I'll give you a hint. One is an AE effect, one is not. Hence why I listed it as AE aggro. If you'd rather have Tower of Stone than Destruction and Open Wounds, you are playing the wrong class. I wouldn't trade them for that. Not ever. Comparing EoF AA trees and EoF fabled gear sets is a joke as well. There is not much they can add to the berserker class and not make it a bit overpowering. Guardians get a reduction in the timer of Reinforcement? So what. If they need to use it more often that means they're losing aggro more often. It's a recovery tool. Berserkers have defensive options as well. Longer mitigation buffs, bigger debuffs. Discredit them if you like, but they exist and believe it or not they have a use. Berserkers can increase their AE damage and reduce taunt resists. That's even more aggro. Overpowering? You're seriously suggesting that the only way to make EoF fabled berserker pants not overpowering is to put 10 health regen on it? Man, even flowing thought 3 is more useful than that. But that'd be overpowered I guess. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> It doesn't mean they're losing aggro more often, it simply gives them far more aggro generating ability if they use it properly. Memwipes? A complete joke. AE aggro? Reinforcement + Besiege, viola. And say you happen to die twice in a fight for whatever reason. The zerker blows rescue and is completely screwed on the second time, the guard simply goes to reinforcement. Or better yet, uses tower of stone and doesn't die in the first place. Increase AE damage? Even with 5 points in them you're usually better off just freaking autoattacking with double attack instead of wasting the cast time on the crappy things. Exaggerating again. Reinforcement + Besiege = nothing if someone else isn't higher on the hate list to start with. Plus one hate position does nothing for you if you're the only one on the hate list. So a guard gets 3 tools to deal with Memwipes, Reinforcement, Sentry Watch, and Rescue. Whoopee. There are plenty of ways to deal with a memwiping mob without depending entirely on the tank. Good team work goes a long way. No, I never stated the only way to make the EoF fabled pants not overpowering is to put 10 health regen on it. You're exaggerating what I stated again. I guess that's what you have to do when you have no solid argument, just whining. The OP wanted more damage. The EoF AA's give you just that. Now you're saying more damage is worthless. Go figure. Berserkers maintain aggro just fine. We're a little less effecient at aggro recovery with only one ability that increases hate position, but that is hardly a problem if your group/raid acknowledges that aggro management is a team effort. Of course we maintain aggro fine, we tank fine as well. It doesn't change the fact that Guardians can parse around 2k dps, have far more skills for surviability and recovering aggro when tanking, and with a good swashy they aren't going to lose AE aggro anyway. Basically, unless your guild only raids PPR there's not exactly a reason to take a Berserker over a Guardian ever. "far more"? That's pretty funny. Berserkers gain the same benefit from a good swashy. Not even an argument. You were complaining before that berserkers needed a melee buffer, but it's fair I guess for a guardian to require another class for AE aggro. So funny. Personally, if I wasn't fully mastered I've had betrayed to a Guardian long ago. "long ago", eh? So, you could have been a fully mastered guardian by now. Obviously something has kept you as a berserker. I guess the grass isn't so much greener on the other side that it's worth switching. It's moreso the fact of me being too lazy to farm more plat, and being attached to something I've spent about 400p getting fully mastered on. </blockquote>I just don't think the slight gap between berserker and guardian dps really justifies all the crap Guardians get over Berserkers in tanking ability. At any rate, of course I've been working on leveling a Guardian up as well. I already love my Guardian more too. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Some guardians argue that the slight gap in survivability doesn't justify the extra DPS that a berserker gets. I hope you have fun on your guardian. Maybe it suits your playstyle better. I don't know, but I've never had fun playing one. Maybe it's player skill as well, but the guardians I've seen have more trouble holding aggro than the berserkers I've seen. Reinforcement has become a required tool for them where as I get by just fine without it. It does require DPS classes to hold off a bit longer. It does require them to assist the MA. Also, there is less room for a slip or mistake. However, they get used to it and life goes on. EDIT: Yes, Reinforcement can be used to add some insane upfront hate when coordinated with a DPS class. I just don't see many doing that. It's also not a necessity. </blockquote>

uux

04-08-2007, 07:40 PM

<cite>farcryfromdawow wrote:</cite><blockquote> Thank you Kenman for pointing those things out. I didn't want to say those things up front in my thread because now its debatable to those who have no idea what they are talking about. Everything Kenman has just said is true. Guardians unlike Zerks can just pickup agro so quickly. As a raid offtank I have little I can do to pull agro off my fellow mages when they get agro, but our guardian tanking can just pull them off no problems in a split second, same for our Paladin and SK. Rescue is there but it to can be resisted and has a 10min recast I think its 10min. [...] </blockquote> It is pretty obvious who has no idea. I used to offtank for my guild before I became the MT. Picking up adds and such was never a problem. If the MT went down, picking up aggro wasn't an issue either. Memwipes were the hardest to deal with at first. I even asked for hints on how to deal with it in the berserker forums. Guess what? I got some pretty [Removed for Content] good tips. Memwipes are now a joke. If a mob leaves me, it's usually for less than a second. With Intercede, the person who aggro switched to momentarily doesn't even get damaged. I would say the main issue is players who have no clue and do not let you get aggro. An SK who uses Pestilent Touch and Death March following a memwipe isn't doing you any favors. Neither is that wizard that just did a 90K manaburn. If multiple mobs went to multiple players then you have some serious team work issues to hammer out. It's not the class you've chosen to play that has the problem.

Kaleyen

04-08-2007, 07:53 PM

Exactly Uux, I thought this thread was an April Fool's joke...but it's a lil past the first.

kenm

04-08-2007, 08:26 PM

<cite>uux wrote:</cite><blockquote>Kenman@Najena wrote: <blockquote><cite>uux wrote:</cite><blockquote>The +melee skills that a guardian gets is pretty much one of the only offensive buffs that class gets. Compare that to what a berserker gets and yes, it is quite a bit less offensive. By ignoring the big picture it sure does sound like guardians have it better. They don't. Do yourself a favor and don't worry about what a guardian gets. Except when the berserker only hits the mob 50% of the time unless grouped with somebody that buffs melee skills, while the guardian doesn't have anywhere near that issue kind of makes them on par in dps in similar situations single target. With no melee skill buffer, my hit rate drops to about 65% against mobs in Mistmoore Inner Sanctum and the like. I still don't lose aggro and I still parse over 1K zonewide as MT. Your argument is a joke because the higher con mobs just about effect every class's hit rate. It's not only zerkers. Oookay, and a good dps specced Guardian MTing does 2k, give or take. Apparently you're an example of a zerker that would get outparsed by good dps specced guardians, but realistically berserkers and guardians parse about the same, usually with the zerker slightly on top though, on anything single target provided the same group setup, only the zerker sacrifices *loads* of tanking ability that the guardian doesn't. I personally think that's utter crap. There is a number of reasons why certain abilities do not compare equally when examined alone, like the passive Taunting Defense vs Hold the Line abilities. Berserkers also have Weapon Aegis, Open Wounds, Destruction, Insolent Gibe, Wall of Ferocity, frontal barrage, and an encounter proc on the offensive stance (and yes, I tank offensive a lot). That's a lot of AE aggro that a guardian does not have. I left out an encounter AE and another out of encounter AE because a guardian also has similar. With that in mind, why should the berserker passive hate when hit ability be better than or equal to a guardians? Also, a guardian's is completely useless when solo. Oh, you mean how Hold the Line procs 50% of the time for more overall hate as opposed to the Taunting Defense proccing only 20% for less? Reinforcement is *far* more useful than insolent gibe, so what's the issue here? Other than the zerker getting ripped off that is. Wall of Ferocity? Wow, I didn't know guardians lost Wall of Force. The frontal barrage? Utter crap. Unless you're fighting an encounter with at least 3 mobs you benefit moreso from just autoattacking instead, and if you're fighting an encoutner with at least 3 mobs, they're so incredibly uncommon outside of PPR that you're better off popping Open Wounds and autoattacking. In fact, this general rule goes for the other two AOEs bersekers have as well. Destruction and Open Wounds are the only two that make the berserker stand out, and yet for some reason I think I'd much rather, at the very least, have Tower of Stone than both of them. The hate on Taunting Defense is less, but there's also a damage portion. Argue it however you want to. While a guardian's can be outright resisted, ours has a chance to land the damage portion when the taunt is resisted. The lower proc rate is justified when you look at the big picture, which you still don't seem to be able to do. Do you know the difference between Wall of Ferocity and Wall of Force? Apparently you do not. I shouldn't even bother asking. I'll give you a hint. One is an AE effect, one is not. Hence why I listed it as AE aggro. If you'd rather have Tower of Stone than Destruction and Open Wounds, you are playing the wrong class. I wouldn't trade them for that. Not ever. Hey get this, they're both mitigation buffs and as such are counterparts. Wall of Ferocity has a useless AE slow proc. (What the hell, do you kite mobs on raids or something? I see that working well, especially because the stupid thing slows you as well.) While Wall of Force has a single target root proc. And if you're using this skill to somehow try gaining more aggro, please realize that it decreases your attack speed speed as well, rofl. Comparing EoF AA trees and EoF fabled gear sets is a joke as well. There is not much they can add to the berserker class and not make it a bit overpowering. Guardians get a reduction in the timer of Reinforcement? So what. If they need to use it more often that means they're losing aggro more often. It's a recovery tool. Berserkers have defensive options as well. Longer mitigation buffs, bigger debuffs. Discredit them if you like, but they exist and believe it or not they have a use. Berserkers can increase their AE damage and reduce taunt resists. That's even more aggro. Overpowering? You're seriously suggesting that the only way to make EoF fabled berserker pants not overpowering is to put 10 health regen on it? Man, even flowing thought 3 is more useful than that. But that'd be overpowered I guess. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> It doesn't mean they're losing aggro more often, it simply gives them far more aggro generating ability if they use it properly. Memwipes? A complete joke. AE aggro? Reinforcement + Besiege, viola. And say you happen to die twice in a fight for whatever reason. The zerker blows rescue and is completely screwed on the second time, the guard simply goes to reinforcement. Or better yet, uses tower of stone and doesn't die in the first place. Increase AE damage? Even with 5 points in them you're usually better off just freaking autoattacking with double attack instead of wasting the cast time on the crappy things. Exaggerating again. Reinforcement + Besiege = nothing if someone else isn't higher on the hate list to start with. Plus one hate position does nothing for you if you're the only one on the hate list. So a guard gets 3 tools to deal with Memwipes, Reinforcement, Sentry Watch, and Rescue. Whoopee. There are plenty of ways to deal with a memwiping mob without depending entirely on the tank. Good team work goes a long way. No, I never stated the only way to make the EoF fabled pants not overpowering is to put 10 health regen on it. You're exaggerating what I stated again. I guess that's what you have to do when you have no solid argument, just whining. The OP wanted more damage. The EoF AA's give you just that. Now you're saying more damage is worthless. Go figure. You really don't get it, do you? EoF AAs don't give you more dps. On about 95% of the encounters in tier 7 you will actually LOSE dps from using the three berserker AOEs instead of simply autoattacking. And on the other 5% you'll be using open wounds or destruction, in which case using the AOEs again would cause you to lose dps. But apparently you only parse 1k dps while being the main tank, so you do Berserkers maintain aggro just fine. We're a little less effecient at aggro recovery with only one ability that increases hate position, but that is hardly a problem if your group/raid acknowledges that aggro management is a team effort. Of course we maintain aggro fine, we tank fine as well. It doesn't change the fact that Guardians can parse around 2k dps, have far more skills for surviability and recovering aggro when tanking, and with a good swashy they aren't going to lose AE aggro anyway. Basically, unless your guild only raids PPR there's not exactly a reason to take a Berserker over a Guardian ever. "far more"? That's pretty funny. Berserkers gain the same benefit from a good swashy. Not even an argument. You were complaining before that berserkers needed a melee buffer, but it's fair I guess for a guardian to require another class for AE aggro. So funny. Um, dude. Thanks for showing my point. Regardless of the tank AOE aggro is a non-issue with a swashbuckler. DPS is DPS, be it single target or AOE, and guardians can parse right up there with zerkers on the majority of fights that matter. With that said, guardians get tower of stone, they get an hp buff, they get a stamina buff, they get reinforcement, and they have AAs aimed directly toward increasing their tanking ability. Why on earth would you have a zerker on a raid when you could bring a guardian that only does several hundred dps less yet can get and maintain aggro so much better, and quite simply just tank so much better? Personally, if I wasn't fully mastered I've had betrayed to a Guardian long ago. "long ago", eh? So, you could have been a fully mastered guardian by now. Obviously something has kept you as a berserker. I guess the grass isn't so much greener on the other side that it's worth switching. It's moreso the fact of me being too lazy to farm more plat, and being attached to something I've spent about 400p getting fully mastered on. </blockquote>I just don't think the slight gap between berserker and guardian dps really justifies all the crap Guardians get over Berserkers in tanking ability. At any rate, of course I've been working on leveling a Guardian up as well. I already love my Guardian more too. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Some guardians argue that the slight gap in survivability doesn't justify the extra DPS that a berserker gets. I hope you have fun on your guardian. Maybe it suits your playstyle better. I don't know, but I've never had fun playing one. Maybe it's player skill as well, but the guardians I've seen have more trouble holding aggro than the berserkers I've seen. Reinforcement has become a required tool for them where as I get by just fine without it. It does require DPS classes to hold off a bit longer. It does require them to assist the MA. Also, there is less room for a slip or mistake. However, they get used to it and life goes on. EDIT: Yes, Reinforcement can be used to add some insane upfront hate when coordinated with a DPS class. I just don't see many doing that. It's also not a necessity. </blockquote> </blockquote>You know, mythical's the only guardian I've ever seen claim that zerkers were better than guardians. But that's just because he didn't know how to play, and well also because I kicked his [Removed for Content] in duels all the time. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Other than that I cannot even fathom how anybody could believe that. I can't convince my guild to do PPR, so I can't ever raid with me parsing over 1k dps higher than the guardian. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

kenm

04-08-2007, 08:28 PM

<cite>uux wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>farcryfromdawow wrote:</cite><blockquote> Thank you Kenman for pointing those things out. I didn't want to say those things up front in my thread because now its debatable to those who have no idea what they are talking about. Everything Kenman has just said is true. Guardians unlike Zerks can just pickup agro so quickly. As a raid offtank I have little I can do to pull agro off my fellow mages when they get agro, but our guardian tanking can just pull them off no problems in a split second, same for our Paladin and SK. Rescue is there but it to can be resisted and has a 10min recast I think its 10min. [...] </blockquote> It is pretty obvious who has no idea. I used to offtank for my guild before I became the MT. Picking up adds and such was never a problem. If the MT went down, picking up aggro wasn't an issue either. Memwipes were the hardest to deal with at first. I even asked for hints on how to deal with it in the berserker forums. Guess what? I got some pretty [I cannot control my vocabulary] good tips. Memwipes are now a joke. If a mob leaves me, it's usually for less than a second. With Intercede, the person who aggro switched to momentarily doesn't even get damaged. I would say the main issue is players who have no clue and do not let you get aggro. An SK who uses Pestilent Touch and Death March following a memwipe isn't doing you any favors. Neither is that wizard that just did a 90K manaburn. If multiple mobs went to multiple players then you have some serious team work issues to hammer out. It's not the class you've chosen to play that has the problem. </blockquote>I don't think you understand. I never have trouble dealing with memwipes. I openly encourage everybody in my guild to try to steal aggro from me when I'm tanking, but they usually are unable to. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> It's just... guardians are better tanks hands down. And I honestly don't believe the slight gap in dps justifies that.

Dimgl

04-08-2007, 08:35 PM

<cite>uux wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>farcryfromdawow wrote:</cite><blockquote> Thank you Kenman for pointing those things out. I didn't want to say those things up front in my thread because now its debatable to those who have no idea what they are talking about. Everything Kenman has just said is true. Guardians unlike Zerks can just pickup agro so quickly. As a raid offtank I have little I can do to pull agro off my fellow mages when they get agro, but our guardian tanking can just pull them off no problems in a split second, same for our Paladin and SK. Rescue is there but it to can be resisted and has a 10min recast I think its 10min. [...] </blockquote> It is pretty obvious who has no idea. I used to offtank for my guild before I became the MT. Picking up adds and such was never a problem. If the MT went down, picking up aggro wasn't an issue either. Memwipes were the hardest to deal with at first. I even asked for hints on how to deal with it in the berserker forums. Guess what? I got some pretty [I cannot control my vocabulary] good tips. Memwipes are now a joke. If a mob leaves me, it's usually for less than a second. With Intercede, the person who aggro switched to momentarily doesn't even get damaged. </blockquote>I agree with uux. If I want threat, I can get threat. Giving Berserkers any more DPS would put us even higher than the top-tier position we enjoy. I will however agree with the other posters that the Berserker EoF tree is trash. It is very, very, obvious that little effort was put into it as evidenced by: Poor vision and layout: Taunt resistability reducer at end of AOE DPS tree. A weaker berserk (17 vs 29) that DOESN'T stack with our base class berserks that we have to cast and it overwrites our good berserks as a tree ENDER? A regen buffer that can't be used -period- due to regen caps at the end of a tree that caps us on regen. Furthermore it only works below 30% max HP? Insultingly bad. Poor naming: Gut Roar? Cyclones, the taunt reducer? What do we do, speak in tornadoes that make our insults difficult to dodge? I'm sure having a cyclone tongue would be popular with the ladies, but I hardly want to think about how it helps me infuriate the giant dragon in front of me. Poor Flavor: Trees aren't particularly good at granting flavor or differentiating berserkers who take different paths, they don't even have flavor text like many other trees. Poor paths period: Over 70% of berserkers follow the exact same paths, whether tank or DPS the best path is the same path.

Kaleyen

04-08-2007, 08:44 PM

Alright, so this thread is about DPS while tanking. Zerkers do the most DPS while tanking and when it comes to raid tanking they are the #2 tanks. I really don't understand what Zerkers have to complain about...I mean you guys got a crappy EoF tree, trust me you're not the only ones who got crappy Trees. So to make up for it you want to do even more damage?

uux

04-08-2007, 10:49 PM

Kenman@Najena wrote: <blockquote>Oookay, and a good dps specced Guardian MTing does 2k, give or take. Apparently you're an example of a zerker that would get outparsed by good dps specced guardians, but realistically berserkers and guardians parse about the same, usually with the zerker slightly on top though, on anything single target provided the same group setup, only the zerker sacrifices *loads* of tanking ability that the guardian doesn't. I personally think that's utter crap. [Removed for Content]. You claim to have a 50% hit rate when not melee buffed yet you also claim to do well over 1K dps. Oh wait, it seems you forgot you said with no melee buff. Not like you're being logical in the least. So you're doing your 1K more than a guard who is out parsing me at 1K and you need more DPS to hold aggro? Yeah, you just tossed every reason for giving you more DPS out the window. Hey get this, they're both mitigation buffs and as such are counterparts. Wall of Ferocity has a useless AE slow proc. (What the hell, do you kite mobs on raids or something? I see that working well, especially because the stupid thing slows you as well.) While Wall of Force has a single target root proc. And if you're using this skill to somehow try gaining more aggro, please realize that it decreases your attack speed speed as well, rofl. Wall of Ferocity and Wall of Force have their place in aggro generation. The fact that you don't see it or apparently don't know how aggro and proximity work is probably part of your problem. Keeping mobs close to you is a huge benefit, not to mention any negative effect you place on the mob is more aggro. The reduced attack speed is minimal and I'm usually well over the haste cap. No noticeable effect here. Yeah, just clear those off your hotbar and then complain about aggro. /boggle. You really don't get it, do you? EoF AAs don't give you more dps. On about 95% of the encounters in tier 7 you will actually LOSE dps from using the three berserker AOEs instead of simply autoattacking. And on the other 5% you'll be using open wounds or destruction, in which case using the AOEs again would cause you to lose dps. But apparently you only parse 1k dps while being the main tank, so you do 1K while not having a melee skill buffer. I like how you leave things out. ADD? You only lose autoattack hits if you time things badly (which is apparently a problem for you). I don't know about you, but with the right combos, Berserker Onslaught hits everything in front of me for somewhere between 4-5K. My autoattack does not. You're now making personal attacks rather than sticking to the topic. Look champ, with 1K DPS even (and w/ dirge + swash and no melee buffer) I'm able to hold aggro just fine. You're not picking up on that point either. If you can hold aggro with 1K, why do you need more DPS for the sake of more aggro? Um, dude. Thanks for showing my point. Regardless of the tank AOE aggro is a non-issue with a swashbuckler. DPS is DPS, be it single target or AOE, and guardians can parse right up there with zerkers on the majority of fights that matter. With that said, guardians get tower of stone, they get an hp buff, they get a stamina buff, they get reinforcement, and they have AAs aimed directly toward increasing their tanking ability. Why on earth would you have a zerker on a raid when you could bring a guardian that only does several hundred dps less yet can get and maintain aggro so much better, and quite simply just tank so much better? Personally, if I wasn't fully mastered I've had betrayed to a Guardian long ago. No. I didn't show your point. We still have it easier with AE aggro. I said we gain the same benefit from a swashbuckler as a guardian would. I did not state it was even. I also never stated guards were better, or zerkers were better. Berserkers just do not need more DPS. You know, mythical's the only guardian I've ever seen claim that zerkers were better than guardians. But that's just because he didn't know how to play, and well also because I kicked his [I cannot control my vocabulary] in duels all the time. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Other than that I cannot even fathom how anybody could believe that. I can't convince my guild to do PPR, so I can't ever raid with me parsing over 1k dps higher than the guardian. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote> I'm not claiming either is better. They're different. They work differently. They get different abilities. If you like the guardian abilities more, then that is the class you should be playing. Plain and simple. Making a berserker a clone of a guardian with a different name would just be silly. For a long time now, berserkers have been called a jack of all trades, master of none. It's still pretty much true. It's a pretty well balanced class with only a few issues. DPS isn't one of those issues.

uux

04-08-2007, 11:09 PM

Kenman@Najena wrote: <blockquote>I don't think you understand. I never have trouble dealing with memwipes. I openly encourage everybody in my guild to try to steal aggro from me when I'm tanking, but they usually are unable to. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> It's just... guardians are better tanks hands down. And I honestly don't believe the slight gap in dps justifies that. </blockquote>The memwipes weren't in reference to you. Fair enough with your last statement. I just don't think more DPS will cause us to be equal tanks. I haven't seen a guard yet that can parse on par with me when buffed the same. It would be interesting to see that "slight gap in dps" backed up some how. In order to overcome the lack of a 'berserk' proc, the guard would already have to be capped out on haste and dps (entirely possible with itemization and group buffs). They still can't touch the melee crit increase from juggernaut, not to mention anything like Open Wounds and Destruction. What do you normally parse, and what does your guard normally parse that you consider it "slight"?

farcryfromdawow

04-09-2007, 12:50 AM

<cite>Supernova17 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>farcryfromdawow wrote:</cite><blockquote>Outrage is the lvl 59 taunt thats single target and it is below lvl 60 taunt, so it is resisted moreso then the Berate taunt even at master 1. </blockquote>I'm adding this to my collection of stupidest things ever said on the eq2players forums... Honestly, the level of a spell that cons white to you has NO impact on it's resistibility, only it's quality affects that and the mental resistance of the mob you are fighting (which people in both groups and raids should debuff derrr..). You wanna talk about that garbage, fine I will too. I have Snapping Mandibles M1 on my Conjuror which is a level 57 direct magic damage spell. Before Unabate it has a hit rate of somewhere between 94% and 96%. We Conjuror's have no buffs that increase our casting skills (+disruption) just like you don't have any melee skill buffs except for offensive stance nor do I wear any gear with it, because imo it's garbage especially with Unabate on hand. </blockquote> Thats pretty lame, I got the info off a forum post about taunt sbeing resisted so much is because of the lvl..Besides how else could one think why taunts are resisted so much, as they do no dmg. That was my info so I just posted, it... Good job of jumping on me for not knowing this and posting a repost of info from elsewhere.

kenm

04-09-2007, 01:23 AM

<cite>uux wrote:</cite><blockquote>Kenman@Najena wrote: <blockquote>I don't think you understand. I never have trouble dealing with memwipes. I openly encourage everybody in my guild to try to steal aggro from me when I'm tanking, but they usually are unable to. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> It's just... guardians are better tanks hands down. And I honestly don't believe the slight gap in dps justifies that. </blockquote>The memwipes weren't in reference to you. Fair enough with your last statement. I just don't think more DPS will cause us to be equal tanks. I haven't seen a guard yet that can parse on par with me when buffed the same. It would be interesting to see that "slight gap in dps" backed up some how. In order to overcome the lack of a 'berserk' proc, the guard would already have to be capped out on haste and dps (entirely possible with itemization and group buffs). They still can't touch the melee crit increase from juggernaut, not to mention anything like Open Wounds and Destruction. What do you normally parse, and what does your guard normally parse that you consider it "slight"? </blockquote>Well tonight in EH I was parsing around 1500-2300 single target (not tanking), another buckler speced guardian who also wasn't tanking was hitting around 1400-1800. Granted zonewides veer toward the low end, but dps is relative and the dps difference is never more than 500 or so single target. Just, meh. To me that's slight and not really worth sacrificing the immense tanking ability guardians get. Heck I'd be happy if SOE replaced our two health regen buffs with something useful, they've always just... really seemed lacking to me. I guess in a sense I agree with the OP, but I don't think more DPS is the answer. That'd just make DPS classes feel [Removed for Content] and not really solve anything. I just want more tanking ability so guardians aren't always the clear choice for everything. /cry Ah well, at least we're not Paladins.

Ciarr

04-09-2007, 02:37 AM

<cite>farcryfromdawow wrote:</cite><blockquote> Thats pretty lame, I got the info off a forum post about taunt sbeing resisted so much is because of the lvl..Besides how else could one think why taunts are resisted so much, as they do no dmg. That was my info so I just posted, it... Good job of jumping on me for not knowing this and posting a repost of info from elsewhere. </blockquote>people are jumping on you because you made a lot of statements which are completely untrue and it is quite clear that you have only a very basic understanding of game mechanicsfor example: if taunts were resisted base on level that would affects all fighters exactly the same way because main single target taunt is the same level for all of them (so is a group one)all tanks make a choise between more dps vs more survivality, zerks are not an exceptionzerks are doing ok DPS for a tank class and they tank just fine if played right (and trust me played right is a key phrase here)noone is saying that class does not have some issues here and there (especially regarding EoF tree not being very tanking-oriented), but what you describe is a combined result of the lack of experience and poor understanting of how the class plays not the problem with the class itself

FightGame

04-09-2007, 03:04 AM

Well, I only made it half way through the OP, but I'm gonna have to say, no. And I'm a berserker. I'm not saying everything is perfect, there certainly could be some improvements, but I don't think dps is one of them.

uux

04-09-2007, 03:26 AM

Yesterday, we single grouped AoAx2 for Claymore updates. I tanked and pulled a zonewide of ~2300. They're mostly lower level mobs (lvl 65-69, with a couple named being 70), so they're a bit easier to hit. That's a zonewide average. Not a per fight range. I spiked as high as 4K on some fights. No melee buffer. As far as survivability went, I never left offensive stance. Tonight, we did Clockwork Menace as well as Freethinkers. My zonewide in Clockwork was 1566 and for Freethinkers it was 1436. No melee buffer (bad turnout since it was Easter and all). I was tanking and mostly in defensive stance. I was using a 1H slasher with a total of 349 slashing skill. On some fights, I spiked as high as 3K (but that's not a zonewide, and zonewide parses are not ranges). Being the MT means I had some nice buffs on me. Some of that DPS was not my own. I'd put my own around 1K zonewide, as I've previously stated. My warrior AA build is not entirely DPS spec'd (4488 str, 4588 sta). Survivability was not an issue, nor was the lack of aggro recovery tools. I think Tower of Stone has it's uses, so does Reinforcement, etc etc. I just never have found myself in a situation where they were must haves, or the outcome would have changed due to them.

hieronym

04-09-2007, 08:05 AM

i can see where the OP is coming from in certain areas. We have to trade off a lot of DPS for defense stuff in our AA lines if we want to tank better and keep the healers happy. We really need a perfect MT group setup with a warden, dirge and either coercer/[Removed for Content] or swashy to keep max hate on us and to be able to do max dps. If i got the perfect MT group then I love it, i can go mad on the groups of mobs and do some serious good DPS providing open wounds and destruction is up and a dige throws in cob for good measure and not worry about some over nuking wizzie. If im missing a dige or whatever then its a pain.

liveja

04-09-2007, 08:15 AM

Kenman@Najena wrote: <blockquote>I just want more tanking ability so guardians aren't always the clear choice for everything. </blockquote>My first choice for tanking everything is the first competent, properly geared tank that's available. Actual class is irrelevant.

Bravesinger

04-09-2007, 11:36 AM

I have played both classes with the same toon, and I have been the MT with a berserker and with a guardian. If any guardian can parse as high (or even higher) than a berserker, then the guardian must be a god (or a developer from SOE, who has twinked him in superman equipment) or the berserker must suck. A berserker will always parse 25% or higher than a guardian. Period!A berserker has some insane AE taunts and AE attacks. A guardian has some nice single target taunts. A berserker can solo very well with his dps/haste and hp-regen, a guardian sucks at it. So you want to have even more dps and be better at holding aggro, and last, but not least have the same defensive buffs as a guardian? Oh oh. You must have forgotten the heals and nukes you also want, and top it off with some resurrection skills...A berserker is an offensive tank, and a guardian is the defensive one. SOE has always told us that, and I think SOE must keep it that way. I don't care about my guardian AAs. They suck compared to the warrior AAs, and since a berserker can pick the same as a guardian, a berserker should still parse way higher than a guardian.(Oh, and please show me all the parses of guardians hitting 2k zonewide, and I bet I can find parses from the same zone, where a berserker is parsing 2.5k...)

Kaleyen

04-09-2007, 11:41 AM

<cite>livejazz wrote:</cite><blockquote>Kenman@Najena wrote: <blockquote>I just want more tanking ability so guardians aren't always the clear choice for everything. </blockquote>My first choice for tanking everything is the first competent, properly geared tank that's available. Actual class is irrelevant.</blockquote>Well, when I was replying I was going under this assumption for simplicity sake... Same geared, same skill level. When it comes to plate fighters the Guardian will always be the #1 MT for raiding choice, Zerkers coming in as #2. But as the poster above me stated, Zerkers can put out a crapton of DPS while tanking. If the OP isn't doing this then you may want to hit up the Zerker forums for some tips and guides.

Legiax

04-09-2007, 01:19 PM

Yes, please give me more DPS. My DPS sucks in PvP so bad, that i only finish top of the parse by about 10k damage from 2nd place <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> MORE DPS! This thread made me lol IRL.

Kaleyen

04-09-2007, 01:28 PM

Bah buggy forums, Enrage's post isn't showing up for me.

KBern

04-09-2007, 02:30 PM

Yeah while we are at it...I want my necro to have more DPS...I also want a druid-esque regen spell....and my tank pet to have the mit of a guardian... while my scout pet gets decapitate....and my mage pet should have ice nova and fusion!<img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Penguin1

04-10-2007, 04:15 PM

Personally I think that wizards manaburn should hit for more damage and be recastable every 45 seconds.I'd also like to see Swashies DPS increased to be on par with the God Solusek Ro, oh wait it already is.Lastly I'd like Necromancers to have an attack ontop of Lifeburn which makes their pet explode and kill everything within 10feet of it.That would be hawt.

khufure

04-10-2007, 06:06 PM

I would like assassins to have a spell called "decapitate bullsh!t dps numbers". It will decapitate the heads of posters that post imaginary numbers in forums to make themselves feel special. Also berserkers obviously need more dps. They should be able to shoot a giant fireball out of their [Removed for Content] once a minute for 5000 ae heat dps. (more if ogre or troll due to eating dwarves and frogs). Just like assassins, in KOS berzerkers were overpowered. That's why both classes got basically nothing in AA and set gear is crap. Would you rather be nerfed with existing abilities or with new ones?

Slayer505

04-10-2007, 07:38 PM

Let's see, I do as good or better DPS then any other fighter, and yet my tanking ability is just slightly behind a Guardian. It sounds to me like the OP either needs a better group set-up or needs to learn how to play his class. If you don't like it, betray to Guardian. I'll agree our EoF AAs are a little weak, but oh well, you can't have everything.

MullenSkywatcher

04-11-2007, 09:07 AM

I have a 70 Berserker. I'm gonna roll a Guardian and level him/her up to 70. At this point, I will declare myself the winner.

TuHideous

04-12-2007, 02:14 AM

I honestly have to say I disagree with the OP. I think my zerk is fine on the dps side, and as for his tanking ability, the only downfall I have is due to my own lack of "mastering" the class, but I am learning. Since I have a 70 Zerker, 70 Conjy, 70 Defiler(Main) and a soon to be 70 Swashy it takes me a little longer to "master" my class since I'm always switching off. If the zerk is your main, I'm certain that they could be equally effective tanking any raid as a well played Guardian. There is only so much the game mechanics/ abilities will do for you, it is up to you to learn how to take full advantage of them. Each and every class has it's pro's and con's, it is commonly reffered to as class balancing. To be honest with you, my choice in characters have accidently brought me to four classes that are quite often thought to be overpowered compared to thier counterparts. In many ways I would almost agree- almost. I don't want any more nerfs. I will agree that the EoF AA line is a bit weak for the zerks, Gut Roar being the most useful EoF AA. But, each and every class has AA downfalls, well except for my conjy maybe- lol- no complaints there. I would have preffered some different effects on the EoF class armor, but when I look at the big picture, I can't complain too much since it is further solidifying the zerker as a very multi talented class, that can fill many rolls.

Legiax

04-12-2007, 08:15 AM

Wrong, Cyclone tree is the best by far due to extended AoE ranger and the increase to taunt effectiveness. Gut Roar is second.

Triste-Lune

04-12-2007, 11:00 AM

lol @ op go get a clue and stop buying toons on Ebay. yes our AA are crap and guard are better are tankig than us but we in no way need more DPS.

uux

04-12-2007, 11:51 AM

Timmeh@Nektulos wrote: <blockquote>I would like assassins to have a spell called "decapitate bullsh!t dps numbers". It will decapitate the heads of posters that post imaginary numbers in forums to make themselves feel special. Also berserkers obviously need more dps. They should be able to shoot a giant fireball out of their [I cannot control my vocabulary] once a minute for 5000 ae heat dps. (more if ogre or troll due to eating dwarves and frogs). </blockquote> I can back up my numbers. Here was that particular clockwork run I mentioned. Some names blanked out since I don't have their permission. The names blocked out with red were other fighters. 2 SK's, a bruiser, and last one listed was another berserker. One SK and the other berserker had some decent dps buffs, but the other two kinda got thrown into a poor group setup (again, bad turn out; it was Easter). We had a paladin offtank the clockwork adds, and he didn't even show up on the portion of the parse I clipped. Normally, with our regular dps attending, if I parsed like this I wouldn't even be in the top 10. The dps classes do much better. <a href="http://img217.imageshack.us/my.php?image=clockworkdpseditedlr8.jpg" target="_blank" rel="nofollow"><img src="http://img217.imageshack....pg" border="0"></a> Here was my damage break down. You can see exactly where it all came from. My group consisted of a dirge, assassin, templar, defiler, and fury. I was using a 1H slasher. The slash damage you see listed was autoattack. You can see my hit rate on the far right of the chart. It's much closer to the 65% I previously mentioned than the 50% someone else had said. I was toggling between offensive and defensive stance. There was no reason not to once a mob has been debuffed. <a href="http://img68.imageshack.us/my.php?image=clockworkallouteditedbd4.jpg" target="_blank" rel="nofollow"><img src="http://img68.imageshack.u...pg" border="0"></a> I didn't post numbers to make myself feel special. It was what I parsed. I'm sure plenty of players are better and have some uber equipment. I get by just fine, and I do not need more dps. I do not care if a guard can go with a DPS spec and do a similar or higher parse. They didn't gain extra survivability with their DPS spec.

joebyrdw

04-12-2007, 02:40 PM

My speculation is most of the naysayers haven't or don't play a Zerk. For most things a Zerk is fine as is. I love my zerks, but zerk is a weak class in realtion to most of the others I have played. Most other classes have a niche that they fit in either by class or AA spec. Warriors as a whole have weak AA lines with exception of the STA line. Zerks on the other hand with a full tanking spec still have much lower tankability then a DPS spec'd guard with only a little better DPS. This is unbalanced IMO Zerkers could use more DPS to make them more viable for high end content. Considering equal player ability why would you pick a zerk for a MT when a Guard has better tankability and close to the same DPS. Why would you pick up a Zerker for a DPS role when there are plenty of classes better suited to DPS. I don't think its a gamebreaking issue but it does deserve to be looked at along with 2 handers damage ratings which is a completely diffrent thread in its own.

uux

04-12-2007, 04:03 PM

<cite>joebyrdws6 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Zerks on the other hand with a full tanking spec still have much lower tankability then a DPS spec'd guard with only a little better DPS. This is unbalanced IMO Zerkers could use more DPS to make them more viable for high end content. Considering equal player ability why would you pick a zerk for a MT when a Guard has better tankability and close to the same DPS. Why would you pick up a Zerker for a DPS role when there are plenty of classes better suited to DPS. </blockquote> Much lower tankability? Hardly. Parse a guard tanking vs a zerker tanking (equal ability and equal equipment, etc). Look at the incoming damage taken. You'll most likely find that the extra damage they soaked up isn't nearly that much lower. You're also arguing that survivability is widely unbalanced. If that's the case, how is more DPS going to help us? Giving us more DPS would be like bribing us to look the other way in regards to survivability. Fix the survivability issues (if there are any). Balance isn't just between the warrior classes either. You have paladins, shadowknights, bruisers, and monks to also consider.

joebyrdw

04-12-2007, 08:31 PM

<cite>uux wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>joebyrdws6 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Zerks on the other hand with a full tanking spec still have much lower tankability then a DPS spec'd guard with only a little better DPS. This is unbalanced IMO Zerkers could use more DPS to make them more viable for high end content. Considering equal player ability why would you pick a zerk for a MT when a Guard has better tankability and close to the same DPS. Why would you pick up a Zerker for a DPS role when there are plenty of classes better suited to DPS. </blockquote> Much lower tankability? Hardly. Parse a guard tanking vs a zerker tanking (equal ability and equal equipment, etc). Look at the incoming damage taken. You'll most likely find that the extra damage they soaked up isn't nearly that much lower. You're also arguing that survivability is widely unbalanced. If that's the case, how is more DPS going to help us? Giving us more DPS would be like bribing us to look the other way in regards to survivability. Fix the survivability issues (if there are any). Balance isn't just between the warrior classes either. You have paladins, shadowknights, bruisers, and monks to also consider. </blockquote>Yes the guardian isn't soaking up that much less but they do have much more HP to go through from what I've seen. I've never played a guardian so If I'm way off just let me know. But my 70 zerk in relic gear had about 7500 hp if I remember correctly and the guild guard in relic with very similar jewelry had over 10000, 2500 HP is quite a diffrence to a tank. I wasn't trying to argue that more DPS would give us more survivability. But more DPS could give us our niche for groups and raids.

PaganSaint

04-12-2007, 08:37 PM

You're way off. Guards and Zerkers have about the same, Guards are ahead slightly due to self buffs. His extra hitpoints were coming from somewhere else if he had that many more points than you. Guards and Zerkers tank about the same, Guards have more tools to get and hold aggro, Zerkers do more dps to get and hold aggro. The biggest differences between them for survivability are Tower of Stone and Stone Sphere(to a small extent) putting the Guardian ahead.

PaganSaint

04-12-2007, 08:37 PM

LoreLady

04-14-2007, 12:15 AM

Our tanks a zerker and I wouldent have it any other way.. they are fine the way they are.

Slayer505

04-14-2007, 03:22 PM

<cite>joebyrdws6 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes the guardian isn't soaking up that much less but they do have much more HP to go through from what I've seen. I've never played a guardian so If I'm way off just let me know. But my 70 zerk in relic gear had about 7500 hp if I remember correctly and the guild guard in relic with very similar jewelry had over 10000, 2500 HP is quite a diffrence to a tank. I wasn't trying to argue that more DPS would give us more survivability. But more DPS could give us our niche for groups and raids. </blockquote> I have to call BS here. Myself and my guild's Guardian with almost identicle equipment have roughly the same health unbuffed, or about 8200. With his self buffs he can get up to about 95-9600 (I don't recall the exact number). That's fully adorned with master Sta and HP buff and fully fabled with several EoF armor pieces. No way a guard in Relic has over 10k health unless he was getting buffs from someplace else. The only things a Guard has over a Zerk in survivability is ToS and about 1500 HP. DPS-wise he's fully DPS spec (first three in Str/Sta/Int) while I'm hybrid DPS/tank (Str with the full Sta line). With identicle buffs I'll usually parse a good 500-600 ahead of him easily. As for my role, I usually OT, sometimes I MT, but I can also be put into a DPS group and put out some pretty impressive numbers. I like my niche just fine TYVM.

Turb

04-15-2007, 08:22 AM

No boost needed.

Skivley101

04-16-2007, 05:26 PM

I have a lvl 20 zerker i have played very little as of late ... so im not even sure how the last 3 patches have effected him.But isnt there a new ability in skills that has somthing to do with gaining better agro(cant think of it off the top of my head) ?I didnt see anyone here mentioning it (so excuse me if i dont know what im talking about)Is it a skill that can be increased beyond the level cap? And could this be used to more even out the aggro holding differences between the tank classes?

FightGame

04-16-2007, 06:37 PM

<cite>Skivley101 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have a lvl 20 zerker i have played very little as of late ... so im not even sure how the last 3 patches have effected him.But isnt there a new ability in skills that has somthing to do with gaining better agro(cant think of it off the top of my head) ?I didnt see anyone here mentioning it (so excuse me if i dont know what im talking about)Is it a skill that can be increased beyond the level cap? And could this be used to more even out the aggro holding differences between the tank classes?</blockquote>I think you're talking about the "Agression" skill. Any class that has any type of taunt, was given this skill. The higher you get the skill, the better chance you have of your taunts NOT being resisted, or atleast that's what soe said it does, but tbh, I barely noticed a difference from 20 until I hit the cap. Maybe it makes a bigger difference if you have lower quality spells, like apprentice or adepts.Nobody mentioned it, because like I said, all the taunting classes get it, so it's equal to all classes, and also, it has nothing to do with the topic, which is berserker dps.I don't think there really is a hard cap on it. There's like a cap that you reach, but then can be buffed higher with your own, or other peoples buffs. But again, if you have adept 3/master spells I personally don't think it matters much, just my experience.

Aanak

04-17-2007, 12:47 PM

<cite>joebyrdws6 wrote:</cite><blockquote>My speculation is most of the naysayers haven't or don't play a Zerk. For most things a Zerk is fine as is. I love my zerks, but zerk is a weak class in realtion to most of the others I have played. Most other classes have a niche that they fit in either by class or AA spec. Warriors as a whole have weak AA lines with exception of the STA line. Zerks on the other hand with a full tanking spec still have much lower tankability then a DPS spec'd guard with only a little better DPS. This is unbalanced IMO Zerkers could use more DPS to make them more viable for high end content. Considering equal player ability why would you pick a zerk for a MT when a Guard has better tankability and close to the same DPS. Why would you pick up a Zerker for a DPS role when there are plenty of classes better suited to DPS. I don't think its a gamebreaking issue but it does deserve to be looked at along with 2 handers damage ratings which is a completely diffrent thread in its own.</blockquote>Different people have different playstiles and wants. Some play to raid, others to group, others possibly to just chat and socialize... I have a 70 assassin which would fall into your classification as a "better suited"dps class who raids. Recently my wife and I have decided to level up new chars. So far, at level 40, I'm finding that the Zerker is the perfect balance between survivability and dps for me in this duo situation. My assassin does one thing--dps, where my new Zerker has a wide range of options of how he can be utilized which is really fun and works really well for what she and I want to do right now. I really like the damage I'm doing and I haven't even gotten to distruction or open wounds yet! Yes, my assassin can out DPS my zerker, level for level, but that's not why I chose the zerker. I wanted the balance and the ability to tank which my scout just does not have.For what I want to do right now (which isn't raiding) the zerker couldn't be better. 1000% happy with the balance between tanking, agro, and DPS that this class has--especially in a duo or trio situation. Aanak

Shankonia

04-18-2007, 02:17 PM

Give Zerkers more DPS? Seriously?How about giving Monks and Bruisers more DPS and more ulitility to put us just a tad behind the Zerker in overall ability. Keep your leg up in tanking efficiency as Zerks should be better tanks. Better utility and dps than brawlers is just wrong though.

Kaleyen

04-18-2007, 02:24 PM

<cite>Shankonia wrote:</cite><blockquote> Keep your leg up in tanking efficiency as Zerks should be better tanks. Better <strike>utility and</strike> dps than brawlers is just wrong though.</blockquote>Which is why fighters in general are all f'd up right now in terms of tanking, DPS while tanking and DPS while not tanking. I made some wild crazy idea post awhile back on the old forums of having one class between Warriors, Crusaders and Bruisers be offensive and the other defensive, while the defensive would do better tanking then the previous class' offensive going in the order above for tankability.

Shankonia

04-18-2007, 02:32 PM

<cite>joebyrdws6 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Warriors as a whole have weak AA lines Why would you pick up a Zerker for a DPS role when there are plenty of classes better suited to DPS. </blockquote> Weak AA lines? Did you see the Monk AA's? Take a look at them and get ready for the laughter that will follow.Zerker for a DPS role? Zerkers have the best DPS of all tank classes and provide the best utility. Group DPS mod, Haste and Strength? Give me a break. That's three offensive group DPS buffs. My Dirge, you know the godly buff botters with all those offensive buffs only has four that are maintained. Zerkers also do more damage than bards and are also pretty much the 2nd best tank.In summary, Zerkers are:2nd best tank.Best dps tank.Just behind Dirge in dps utility.One of the most powerful classes in the game.Better overall than Guardians, Monks, Bruisers, Paladins, Sk's, Troubs and Dirges from a DPS standpoint.Did I mention Zerkers wear plate, hold great aggro and have sickening AA's in comparison to the other tank classes?I can't beleive this thread even exists.

kenm

04-18-2007, 04:16 PM

<cite>Shankonia wrote:</cite><blockquote>... Group DPS mod, Haste and Strength? Give me a break. That's three offensive group DPS buffs. ... Did I mention Zerkers wear plate, hold great aggro and have sickening AA's in comparison to the other tank classes?... </blockquote>DPS and haste are the same buff, I believe at master it's 23 (Edit, sorry. 28.) and the proc rate is incredibly low. The self buff has double the proc rate and unless I'm tanking, ever since EoF, I'm not berserk like half the time. Yeah, a buff that's almost never up is awesome. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Strength? Off the top of my head I think that's 122 at master. I think most DPS groups would rather have an INT buff instead of yet another buff to help them get over 1000 STR. Putting us second to dirge is a complete joke. Dirges are just godlike with Dissonant Boon, Tomb's Calm, and Cacophony of Blades. Inquisitors surely are better than berserkers for a dps group, and an illusionist is better too... Sickening AAs? I'm willing to argue that of the EoF AA lines, the berserker ones are the WORST. Whoever did them has absolutely no grasp at how berserkers work. There's like an entire line dedicated to health regen, ooh yeah freaking AWESOME.

Shankonia

04-18-2007, 07:32 PM

<cite>kenman wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shankonia wrote:</cite><blockquote>... Group DPS mod, Haste and Strength? Give me a break. That's three offensive group DPS buffs. ... Did I mention Zerkers wear plate, hold great aggro and have sickening AA's in comparison to the other tank classes?... </blockquote>DPS and haste are the same buff, I believe at master it's 23 and the proc rate is incredibly low. The self buff has double the proc rate and unless I'm tanking, ever since EoF, I'm not berserk like half the time. Yeah, a buff that's almost never up is awesome. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Strength? Off the top of my head I think that's 122 at master. I think most DPS groups would rather have an INT buff instead of yet another buff to help them get over 1000 STR. Putting us second to dirge is a complete joke. Dirges are just godlike with Dissonant Boon, Tomb's Calm, and Cacophony of Blades. Inquisitors surely are better than berserkers for a dps group, and an illusionist is better too... Sickening AAs? I'm willing to argue that of the EoF AA lines, the berserker ones are the WORST. Whoever did them has absolutely no grasp at how berserkers work. There's like an entire line dedicated to health regen, ooh yeah freaking AWESOME. </blockquote>You guys get a self buff that is hardly ever up on top of everything else? Must be nice.So your haste and dps buff are the same buff...boy, that's really tough. 23 of each at M1? Well, Monk only gets haste and it's 22 at M1 - and that's it. Your Strength buff is also more than the Dirge has unless we dump all of our AA into it, and even then i'm not sure if it's more as my dirge, like pretty much all dirges, went Str/Wis AA lines. Sure, CoB, Tomb's, Dissonant and Riana's are great, but that's all a dirge does - buff. You don't see any Dirges caking up 2500 dps in any given fight. Best dirges in the world, tmk, cannot do that. The common Zerker can. Zerkers can also tank pretty gosh darn well if i'm not mistaken.I'm also trying to compare apples to apples here - alah melee dps as Zerker DPS is the subject of this thread. I don't know any raid leaders who insert Inquisitors into a DPS role - they are usually there to you know, heal. The point is, the best non-melee DPS class to put into a melee DPS role is...drumroll...the Berserker. Hands down. No competition. Please, argue this. I encourage it.As far as your AA's go, how would you feel if you got thrown deaggros like Monks got stabbed in the back with? Let's see, you're a tank, you don't get much help through AA's really for your DPS, I know! Let's throw in all these deaggro spells so when we're grouped with really crappy plate tanks, they don't get all upset b/c we constantly steal aggro from them! /cheer!!! As a Monk, I would smile at some HP regen, double attack, 28% proc (compared to monks 8%) or even just some buffs like Zerks had before AA's even came about. Warriors even can pick up the Monks bread and butter through AA - Tsunami, and they copped the Bruisers self heal. If you want to bring up Feign Death, go tinker for a week or two. Voila - Feign Death. Not to mention twice the mitigation, a shield, and alot more weapons to choose from.The zerkers who have nothing to complain about - Tu Chez. Those who are complaining SILENCE!!!!

kenm

04-18-2007, 08:36 PM

Shankonia wrote: <blockquote>You guys get a self buff that is hardly ever up on top of everything else? Must be nice.So your haste and dps buff are the same buff...boy, that's really tough. 23 of each at M1? Well, Monk only gets haste and it's 22 at M1 - and that's it. Your Strength buff is also more than the Dirge has unless we dump all of our AA into it, and even then i'm not sure if it's more as my dirge, like pretty much all dirges, went Str/Wis AA lines. Sure, CoB, Tomb's, Dissonant and Riana's are great, but that's all a dirge does - buff. You don't see any Dirges caking up 2500 dps in any given fight. Best dirges in the world, tmk, cannot do that. The common Zerker can. Zerkers can also tank pretty gosh darn well if i'm not mistaken.I'm also trying to compare apples to apples here - alah melee dps as Zerker DPS is the subject of this thread. I don't know any raid leaders who insert Inquisitors into a DPS role - they are usually there to you know, heal. The point is, the best non-melee DPS class to put into a melee DPS role is...drumroll...the Berserker. Hands down. No competition. Please, argue this. I encourage it.As far as your AA's go, how would you feel if you got thrown deaggros like Monks got stabbed in the back with? Let's see, you're a tank, you don't get much help through AA's really for your DPS, I know! Let's throw in all these deaggro spells so when we're grouped with really crappy plate tanks, they don't get all upset b/c we constantly steal aggro from them! /cheer!!! As a Monk, I would smile at some HP regen, double attack, 28% proc (compared to monks 8%) or even just some buffs like Zerks had before AA's even came about. Warriors even can pick up the Monks bread and butter through AA - Tsunami, and they copped the Bruisers self heal. If you want to bring up Feign Death, go tinker for a week or two. Voila - Feign Death. Not to mention twice the mitigation, a shield, and alot more weapons to choose from.The zerkers who have nothing to complain about - Tu Chez. Those who are complaining SILENCE!!!! </blockquote>Sorry, messed up the numbers. Group one is 5% proc chance at 29dps/haste, self is 10% proc chance at 28dps/haste, but they don't stack. And quite honestly I'll admit I haven't cared enough to look exactly how proc mechanics work, but when I have both of the buffs up I'm still berserk-less usually half of every fight, so I'll assume people in my group are even less. Stealth nerfed with EoF, considering I used to nearly always be berserk, w00t. 2.5k dps any given fight? Sure, if you give me a dirge, inquisitor, and have the raid hold up three minutes inbetween pulls so I can use destruction, juggernaut, and open wounds on everything I suppose I could. But then again, a guardian in the same situation would be doing about 2k any given fight anyway. And in a tanking perspective, both classes do more dps as well. I'm more concerned with the unbalance between zerkers and guardians, but speaking of the AA lines in general. Um, I'd actually prefer the deaggro the monks get than the absolute garbage useless AAs zerkers got all around. That way at least I could be a make-shift dps class instead of a gimped tank. Smile at HP regen? That is the single most worthless thing in the entire game if you're doing anything other than soloing. And let's be honest here, who gives a **** about soloing? But if you do, monks are far better since they can FD train all over places with ease. Tinker for feign death? Yeah, that'll help training down SoS since you can use one every 30 minutes! At any rate, I don't see why I'm arguing with you. You've never seen an Inquisitor in a dps role? This would suggest that you've never even killed Chel'drak. Or heck, never even raided with a good Inquisitor at all. In fact, every healer on the freaking raid should be dpsing. If not the raid leader should boot them. But specifically speaking, an Inquisitor? You pretty much stick them in the melee dps group and have them dps their butt off as well as simply keeping it up. Get them Vraksakins and have them spec to 100% crit, they'll parse pretty awesomely for a priest. (Probably out-dps a dirge in a similar situation, so you're hardly comparing apples to apples) I mean seriously, when I see an inquisitor their ability to heal is pretty much the last thing I think of. They shouldn't be in the main tank group and it's not like their group should be taking much damage outside of pansy AOEs.

Bezado

04-19-2007, 12:22 AM

<cite>kenman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Shankonia wrote: <blockquote>You guys get a self buff that is hardly ever up on top of everything else? Must be nice.So your haste and dps buff are the same buff...boy, that's really tough. 23 of each at M1? Well, Monk only gets haste and it's 22 at M1 - and that's it. Your Strength buff is also more than the Dirge has unless we dump all of our AA into it, and even then i'm not sure if it's more as my dirge, like pretty much all dirges, went Str/Wis AA lines. Sure, CoB, Tomb's, Dissonant and Riana's are great, but that's all a dirge does - buff. You don't see any Dirges caking up 2500 dps in any given fight. Best dirges in the world, tmk, cannot do that. The common Zerker can. Zerkers can also tank pretty gosh darn well if i'm not mistaken.I'm also trying to compare apples to apples here - alah melee dps as Zerker DPS is the subject of this thread. I don't know any raid leaders who insert Inquisitors into a DPS role - they are usually there to you know, heal. The point is, the best non-melee DPS class to put into a melee DPS role is...drumroll...the Berserker. Hands down. No competition. Please, argue this. I encourage it.As far as your AA's go, how would you feel if you got thrown deaggros like Monks got stabbed in the back with? Let's see, you're a tank, you don't get much help through AA's really for your DPS, I know! Let's throw in all these deaggro spells so when we're grouped with really crappy plate tanks, they don't get all upset b/c we constantly steal aggro from them! /cheer!!! As a Monk, I would smile at some HP regen, double attack, 28% proc (compared to monks 8%) or even just some buffs like Zerks had before AA's even came about. Warriors even can pick up the Monks bread and butter through AA - Tsunami, and they copped the Bruisers self heal. If you want to bring up Feign Death, go tinker for a week or two. Voila - Feign Death. Not to mention twice the mitigation, a shield, and alot more weapons to choose from.The zerkers who have nothing to complain about - Tu Chez. Those who are complaining SILENCE!!!! </blockquote>Sorry, messed up the numbers. Group one is 5% proc chance at 29dps/haste, self is 10% proc chance at 28dps/haste, but they don't stack. And quite honestly I'll admit I haven't cared enough to look exactly how proc mechanics work, but when I have both of the buffs up I'm still berserk-less usually half of every fight, so I'll assume people in my group are even less. Stealth nerfed with EoF, considering I used to nearly always be berserk, w00t. 2.5k dps any given fight? Sure, if you give me a dirge, inquisitor, and have the raid hold up three minutes inbetween pulls so I can use destruction, juggernaut, and open wounds on everything I suppose I could. But then again, a guardian in the same situation would be doing about 2k any given fight anyway. And in a tanking perspective, both classes do more dps as well. I'm more concerned with the unbalance between zerkers and guardians, but speaking of the AA lines in general. Um, I'd actually prefer the deaggro the monks get than the absolute garbage useless AAs zerkers got all around. That way at least I could be a make-shift dps class instead of a gimped tank. Smile at HP regen? That is the single most worthless thing in the entire game if you're doing anything other than soloing. And let's be honest here, who gives a **** about soloing? But if you do, monks are far better since they can FD train all over places with ease. Tinker for feign death? Yeah, that'll help training down SoS since you can use one every 30 minutes! At any rate, I don't see why I'm arguing with you. You've never seen an Inquisitor in a dps role? This would suggest that you've never even killed Chel'drak. Or heck, never even raided with a good Inquisitor at all. In fact, every healer on the freaking raid should be dpsing. If not the raid leader should boot them. But specifically speaking, an Inquisitor? You pretty much stick them in the melee dps group and have them dps their butt off as well as simply keeping it up. Get them Vraksakins and have them spec to 100% crit, they'll parse pretty awesomely for a priest. (Probably out-dps a dirge in a similar situation, so you're hardly comparing apples to apples) I mean seriously, when I see an inquisitor their ability to heal is pretty much the last thing I think of. They shouldn't be in the main tank group and it's not like their group should be taking much damage outside of pansy AOEs. </blockquote> Amen brother. As a top tier raid MT and offtank I find our AA lines almost worthless. Our proc chances for beserks really are a joke!! Come on SOE 10% and a 5% chance, little higher if you AA spec them but still. I think im more then half beserk during each fight. Guardians got such a nice AA line EOF and can virtually go full DPS AA spec with no penalties to them tanking. Heck, the guardians I all know and our own are dps spec (bucklar) and with a few class fabled EOF set pieces and mixed in contested pieces are tanking AVATARS>Woushi and other crap easy without problems in full DPS AA spec and still making parse with 1200-1400 DPS parses! To the silly bruisers and monk talk going on here, our monks bruisers always parse high consistanlty 1500-1700 DPS. Our highest DPS is our 2 rangers who can reach every fight over 2500 DPS followed by our nukers, (warlocks if multiple mobs) and wizards necros. There is no WAY to get 2500 DPS as a zerker any given fight!!! The only way for me to get such DPS is poping Destruction and Open wounds prior to the incoming, and then poping Juggernaut!!! This takes timing, as you have a long cast on destruction then to cast juggernaut your beserk has to go off, which is a 10% or 5% chance!! So on lucky occasions we can get juggernaut up with both destruction and open wounds, which on multiple mobs only we will see up to 2500 dps and as much as 3k+ if its on Heroics multiple mobs, but with pre-casting........Destruction and Open wounds AE's are on 3min timers, so lets see a ZERK can DPS high on multiple mobs if they want ever few minutes, and possibly get juggernaut off if they get lucky. The problem with this thread is so many people are STEREOTYPING ZERKS!! People either raid occasionaly and seen a Zerk DPS maybe a few times high on a parse and figured thats really everytime. But the facts are this, a Zerk and I am a end game Zerk whos MT the toughest [Removed for Content] so I know, is that if we are tanking the [Removed for Content] mob we do more DPS cause bucklar reversal is being initiated more cause of riposts blocks etc. Also for the most part to parse high as a Zerk we need a dirge+coercer inquisitor in group! On our single target mobs in full DPS setup vs our guardian in full DPS setup who is actually tanking the guardian does more DPS then me by 200-400. I parse an average 800-1200 dps on single target mobs. I think the OP was suggesting that a Zerker vs a Guardian just isn't a Beserker in the true sense, because the limiting factors that makes them not so Beserk. Limitations on the bufs they have which proc very low percentages. Of which a guardian whos end game raid tanking will most likely be a DPS AA setup which makes him dps higher then a zerk who does not MT. Reasons a guardian is ahead of zerks by the comments listed here by the OP and some others is that a guardian can go full DPS setup and not pay any penalties to his tanking ability in good gear. Guardian will most likely if MT will dps more then a zerk on 1vs 1 target. All im saying as a end top tier raiding beserker is that not everything is what people make it out to be. Being a Zerker is harder then most think, trying to be a good tank vs a guardian who has just as good DPS and more survivability is just in my opinion unbalanced. Give Zerks a better AA tree, [Removed for Content] is up with adding health regen when we already max out on our own with our in-combat health regens. Whoever did make Zerk AA did not know what they were doing. A guardian in my opinion is TOP game TANK/DPS/SURVIVOR......Beserker is Decent Tank/ok DPS if you time it and right setup/lack of survivability in full dps AA setup.... Btw our dirge does 700-900 DPS parses thats insane for a class that can buff a single group of 600-1400 extra DPS per fight. Use your ACT to get that info. <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

FightGame

04-19-2007, 12:32 PM

<cite>Shankonia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just behind Dirge in dps utility.hold great aggro and have sickening AA's in comparison to the other tank classes?</blockquote>Just behind a dirge? haha that's the funniest thing I've read in this thread. Strength is given by atleast a few classes. Most melee dps classes are well into the diminishing returns part of the curve, so 100 strength isn't all that great. Drink a strength potion and you have about 1/3 of the zerkers "utility". The DPS and Haste mods are a proc, so they aren't up all the time. And again, most melee dps classes are into the diminishing returns part of those curves as well. Now I'm not going to try to list all the things a dirge can buff, and I'm sure 99% of everyone reading this already know that the dirge is the ULTIMATE melee utility class, probably close to about 4 times better than a zerker, maybe more.Great aggro? well I hope so, they are a tanking class. But on single targets guardian is much much better. They can hold it nearly as well, but if they lose it, they have many ways of getting it back that are alot more powerful than what a zerker can do to get it back. ie rescue like abilities times 3.sickening aa's? um they only real decent thing is the stamina line, and this is something that guards get too. The berserker EoF tree is total garbage except maybe 2 abilities, which aren't anything that great anyway.I agree they probably do not need more dps, but to say they are overpowered like you did, is totally false. Maybe your class has some problems that people in your class needs to address. Nerfing another class will not fix yours.Edit: Guardian health over a Zerker is not 2500, and it is not 1200. If they happen to get Master spells of Fortified Conviction (66 stamina times about 3 since they are into diminishing returns = 198 health) and Return to War (677 health), for a total of 875, at the very most, considering all gear and other buffs being equal.

PaganSaint

04-19-2007, 01:38 PM

First of all the "low proc percentage" that is being called for the Group Berserk buff is rather... Off. Especially when in a DPS group that percentage is the chance each attack, before haste, will cause the person to trigger the buff. In other words it is up for almost the entire fight for melee DPS classes. After the first proc of it the next is going to come faster and the rest to keep it active the whole fight will keep coming just as fast. Especially if you were smart and spent the points to increase its trigger percentage. Even deep into the diminishing returns curve the group strength buff provides a noticeable bonus because of the size of the buff, think of it as a group wide Vim for Melee classes in terms of added damage. The only thing I can think of for all of the people who are experiancing low DPS with a zerker is that they are using a tower shield or a two hand and expecting the same DPS as a buckler using, double attacking Guard when the option to use a buckler and double attack is there for them also. A zerker is useful in a DPS group or as MT, while a Guardian is useful as MT or as a safety net to get the MT back up and buffed if he is spiked only.

joebyrdw

04-19-2007, 02:39 PM

<cite>Slayer505 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>joebyrdws6 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes the guardian isn't soaking up that much less but they do have much more HP to go through from what I've seen. I've never played a guardian so If I'm way off just let me know. But my 70 zerk in relic gear had about 7500 hp if I remember correctly and the guild guard in relic with very similar jewelry had over 10000, 2500 HP is quite a diffrence to a tank. I wasn't trying to argue that more DPS would give us more survivability. But more DPS could give us our niche for groups and raids. </blockquote> I have to call BS here. Myself and my guild's Guardian with almost identicle equipment have roughly the same health unbuffed, or about 8200. With his self buffs he can get up to about 95-9600 (I don't recall the exact number). That's fully adorned with master Sta and HP buff and fully fabled with several EoF armor pieces. No way a guard in Relic has over 10k health unless he was getting buffs from someplace else. The only things a Guard has over a Zerk in survivability is ToS and about 1500 HP. DPS-wise he's fully DPS spec (first three in Str/Sta/Int) while I'm hybrid DPS/tank (Str with the full Sta line). With identicle buffs I'll usually parse a good 500-600 ahead of him easily. As for my role, I usually OT, sometimes I MT, but I can also be put into a DPS group and put out some pretty impressive numbers. I like my niche just fine TYVM. </blockquote> The numbers I cited are not exact and were before diminishing returns had came into play. My memory could be shotty. But I do remember him having a whole bunch more health than myself, right now my berzerkers unbuffed health is only 6918. Him being set up primarily for raid tanking maby our gear was not as close as I had thought. It seems many of you are much more informed than myself on zerker vs guard. Thinking about it again I don't neccessarily think we need a boost in DPS across the board. I think more options for AA builds would be more what I'm looking for. Making use of a DW or a 2 hander should provide more DPS that what it does. I've done extensive and very expensive(10p per) testing of buckler spec, and DW/2h specs using nothing but auto attack. The diffrence between each is very low in the average of 5-15 dps. This was using Anciten Vehluim weapons on the basilisks near the dreadnever crashsite in bomemire. I would like to see the warrior trees completely revamped. Maby something like AGI tree turned into a DW spec tree, with the WIS tree turned into a 2hand spec tree. Bump up the autoattack effecting multiple targets % and adding more DPS mod to the WIS line, leaving the others as is. That way DW warriors can have more Area damage from having 2 weapons, and 2H warriors can have more single target damage, with buckler warriors keeping their double attack. I don't know how many warriors use maces or spears that might be outraged by removing those weapons from their respective lines though. Since this setup would pretty much force warriors to used a sword or axe to get the most out of AA's. Hopefully these thoughts are comprehensible to others I feel like I got a little carried away.

Shankonia

04-19-2007, 04:33 PM

First off, nobody said nerf. Zerkers should not be nerfed. They are on the heavy side of the balance however. I just can't beleive that you guys are complaining about being the "second best single target" tank while being the best "multi-target" tank. You guys don't even care about Monks, Bruisers, Pali's and SK's because you SQUASH them in overall ability. In comparision to a Dirge, keep in mind, that a dirge is a buff bot class. A zerker is not. Of course the Dirge is going to be better in that role. Say your Dirge does not show for a raid, and you have to choose between filling his spot in the dps group with any tank? Who gets the call? Zerker gets the call. The fact that zerkers have to be compared with pure dps classes, pure support classes AND healers says it all in my mind.

Shankonia

04-19-2007, 04:47 PM

FightGame wrote: <blockquote>Drink a strength potion and you have about 1/3 of the zerkers "utility".**I'll take the Zerkers buffs AND drink a strength potion, thanks**I agree they probably do not need more dps, but to say they are overpowered like you did, is totally false.**In comparsion to pure DPS and support classes, sure. Zerkers are not overpowered. In comparsion to every other tank class, Zerkers are by far the most powerful overall. I always thought that the Brawlers were supposed to be the "Hybrid" tank class, and had to wear leather, use blunt weapons, throwing ranged weapons and no sheilds as the penalty for their versatility. Sadly, this is not the case. They are the least versitle tanks in the games present state.** Maybe your class has some problems that people in your class needs to address. Nerfing another class will not fix yours.**You said the N word, not me, nor will I ever call for such a thing.**</blockquote>

Bruticai

04-20-2007, 03:32 PM

i think zerks are right where they need to be

Skeptycal

05-19-2007, 06:35 PM

............ lol ............ Zerkers need more dps to be IN LINE WITH GUARDIANS !!!!! That's too good =)

steelblueangel

05-21-2007, 06:57 AM

All plate tanks should be given a boost in their ability to gain the agro and then to maintain it. Many groups wipe due to the tank not being able to maintain the agro, whether it is a guardian, zerker, shadow knight, or a pally. While the loss of agro may in some cases be a result of poor spell upgrades, this is not always true. Some classes make it very difficult for the tank to take and maintain agro.Guardians, zerkers, shadow knights and pallys all wear plate and are in the tank class; therefore, all should have their taughts increased. This would help groups to form quicker; thus, providing a larger variety of availabe tanks who are looking for groups.

Norrsken

05-21-2007, 10:24 AM

<cite>steelblueangel wrote:</cite><blockquote>All plate tanks should be given a boost in their ability to gain the agro and then to maintain it. Many groups wipe due to the tank not being able to maintain the agro, whether it is a guardian, zerker, shadow knight, or a pally. While the loss of agro may in some cases be a result of poor spell upgrades, this is not always true. Some classes make it very difficult for the tank to take and maintain agro.Guardians, zerkers, shadow knights and pallys all wear plate and are in the tank class; therefore, all should have their taughts increased. This would help groups to form quicker; thus, providing a larger variety of availabe tanks who are looking for groups. </blockquote>Huh? Groups? I can keep aggro off nutty arlocks, wizzies and necros that *burn stuff, and I've bplayed with a good amount of tansk that keep aggro off my dpsers when I go balls out. Really, the tanks have the tools to keep aggro.

Reflexx

05-21-2007, 01:17 PM

to be honest with ya. the ONLY tank class that should parse over 700 is a shadowknight , its in the nature of the class.... zerkers DISH OPUT WAY too much DPS if you ask me.. buckler spec and your a god amongst men. dont get me wrong an SK doing things right can parse a lot but. but remember they only get 2 taunts and their shield bash and how many do zerkers get? exactly. they make great MT's though because of the temporary MIT buffs. if your zerker isn't parsin high then your just not doing things right =)

Reflexx

05-21-2007, 01:19 PM

Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote><cite>steelblueangel wrote:</cite><blockquote>All plate tanks should be given a boost in their ability to gain the agro and then to maintain it. Many groups wipe due to the tank not being able to maintain the agro, whether it is a guardian, zerker, shadow knight, or a pally. While the loss of agro may in some cases be a result of poor spell upgrades, this is not always true. Some classes make it very difficult for the tank to take and maintain agro.Guardians, zerkers, shadow knights and pallys all wear plate and are in the tank class; therefore, all should have their taughts increased. This would help groups to form quicker; thus, providing a larger variety of availabe tanks who are looking for groups. </blockquote>Huh? Groups? I can keep aggro off nutty arlocks, wizzies and necros that *burn stuff, and I've bplayed with a good amount of tansk that keep aggro off my dpsers when I go balls out. Really, the tanks have the tools to keep aggro. </blockquote> I have to agree .... Tanks who lose hate ALL the time are a result of either Mana burn on pull or lack of skill ... for example my main is a shadowknight and if you spec right you reduce deathmarch to 2 and a half min. thats an AOE rescue every pull in raids and I hold hate fine against anyone parsing 2.5 k and under with out a dirge or coercer in my group. so you need to hit the forums and check out strats on maintaining aggro.

Reflexx

05-21-2007, 01:25 PM

<cite>Shankonia wrote:</cite><blockquote>FightGame wrote: <blockquote>Drink a strength potion and you have about 1/3 of the zerkers "utility".**I'll take the Zerkers buffs AND drink a strength potion, thanks**I agree they probably do not need more dps, but to say they are overpowered like you did, is totally false.**In comparsion to pure DPS and support classes, sure. Zerkers are not overpowered. In comparsion to every other tank class, Zerkers are by far the most powerful overall. I always thought that the Brawlers were supposed to be the "Hybrid" tank class, and had to wear leather, use blunt weapons, throwing ranged weapons and no sheilds as the penalty for their versatility. Sadly, this is not the case. They are the least versitle tanks in the games present state.** Maybe your class has some problems that people in your class needs to address. Nerfing another class will not fix yours.**You said the N word, not me, nor will I ever call for such a thing.**</blockquote> </blockquote> Another statement I partially agree with =) zerkers are cool where they are now by comparisson with other tanks... except maybe a smart SK. GOOD zerkers will parse around 1200 ... good SK's will parse 1300 to 1400 ... but shhhh thats a carefully guarded secret ( Debuff , dot dot dot dot, then your other spells followed by combat arts in any order really as long as you keep your dots up , no need to harmtouch!!! also.. procing gear is nice if you want to boost it! but heh.... no procing gear is good for tanking really in terms of raw MIT but hey! if your not tanking you can sure out DPS that NOOB assin next door[not the good one down the street though] =P)

Talathion

05-23-2007, 11:27 AM

SKs Shouldn't Out DPS Zerker. SKs Can Nuke, Heal Themselves to full several times, Berserkers Can't. Nothing Improves the Damage of Berserkers Combat Specials Since they are all Real Damage. Berserkers have no /escape or any Special Skills that save them, or any Get out of Jail Free Cards like Monk/Bruiser, they also dont have the Avoidence with the DPS. However higher Miti.Berserkers Are Harder to Play Then All These classes because Its all about AA's, Its probably the hardest class to play levels 13-48.Berserkers Have to Give up Tower sheilds and Kite Sheilds to do DPS, Unlike SKs.Berserkers are Harder to play Then Guardians because you have 11 attacks, 2 taunts, and lots of skills that barley do anything, but when you click them and add them together, you can do amazing things, But It's hard, VERY hard, Most people cant even do it, Cycling Through 11 Low-Cooldown, Low Damage Attacks, Then Switching to taunt, Switching back to Target, Taking aggro off people, Then Timing All 3 Of Our power specials. HARD.

Controlor

05-23-2007, 03:18 PM

<cite>InsaneChaosMarine wrote:</cite><blockquote>SKs Shouldn't Out DPS Zerker. SKs Can Nuke, Heal Themselves to full several times, Berserkers Can't. Nothing Improves the Damage of Berserkers Combat Specials Since they are all Real Damage. Berserkers have no /escape or any Special Skills that save them, or any Get out of Jail Free Cards like Monk/Bruiser, they also dont have the Avoidence with the DPS. However higher Miti.Berserkers Are Harder to Play Then All These classes because Its all about AA's, Its probably the hardest class to play levels 13-48.Berserkers Have to Give up Tower sheilds and Kite Sheilds to do DPS, Unlike SKs.Berserkers are Harder to play Then Guardians because you have 11 attacks, 2 taunts, and lots of skills that barley do anything, but when you click them and add them together, you can do amazing things, But It's hard, VERY hard, Most people cant even do it, Cycling Through 11 Low-Cooldown, Low Damage Attacks, Then Switching to taunt, Switching back to Target, Taking aggro off people, Then Timing All 3 Of Our power specials. HARD.</blockquote>Woah woah woah i just cant agree with this stuff bolded here bub. Will go down the list from top to bottom. Nukes: Sure SK's get nukes big deal. Nukes get easily resisted and are on freeking long recast times. NOT to mention the tons of interupts that can occur. Healing themselves is also meh if they arnt being hit its useless. If they are MT they are being interupted so often cause of cast time that its useless. IF a lifetap goes through it is so minimal its useless. Um Since all your dmg is CA's To increase the dmg of your CA you need to increase your Str. Str increases dmg of CA Int increases dmg of spells. SK's have some CA's also so they need high str and high int vs just high str to do dmg. Hardest class to play HAHAHA. No there are many harder classes to play out there, warriors are prob one of the easiest classes to play. Yah you still get to use a buckler to DPS tho. SK if they want to do as much dps as possible they give up 2 things. 1 ALL shields (including buckler) AND a LOT of mit. A pure dps speced sk (and i have seen some) will most likely have a lot of CLOTH gear on for the high int and procs. They also use a 2 hand slasher Because sword and board kills their dps. Pure dps spec zerker can still tank Pure dps spec SK is a battle squishy.

Bezado

05-23-2007, 03:52 PM

Ok im a 70 zerk full eof fabled almost, need my [I cannot control my vocabulary] chest to drop but considering that what I have read in this thread and the concerns of the OP from what I can see is that zerks have no means for threat when they tank with a tower shield or thats what I think is going on here. Ok if this is clearified maybe then I can agree that a zerker vs a guardian in tower would put the guardian way ahead. I had to respec to full tank setup for 2weeks while our guardian was on vacation. It sucked, I had no agro control in this setup, I was 6100 mit unbuffed or so and raid I was 7400 or so mit buffed, with tower on it was the hardest setup ever to tank in for a zerker. Proper hate transfers dige, swashy and before when I use to tank once in awhile like freethinkers or something in my old dps setup I had no problems tanking. The arguement I think here that im seeing is this. I know our guardian has his full eof fabled set and has the best 1hander in game and hes been tank setup and recently switched dps setup bucklar because he got that good 1hander now, hes crushing high dps im not gona lie there, parsing nearly as high as me sometimes but hes got the dirge in his group. I have a coercer but with his dps hes doing 1600-2200 a fight when im doing around the same so with a dirge im higher with my dps setup but I need the proper setup. The arguement here I think is a guardian can hold agro easier with tower tank setup over a zerker whos tower. Because a zerkers threat comes from doing dps and without bucklar and double attack line your chances for holding agro as a zerk are slim to none, so basicly the zerk is almost always having to go dps line while a guardian can maintain good agro threat while tanking in tower. At least this im hoping is what this threads about. In full eof fabled plus contested goodies the dps on guardians and zerks increases by a ton, but only one of these tanks can actually go tank setup without bucklar and still hold agro really well. In certain situations when I was tank setup with my zerk and trying to tank mayong, woushi and rumbler we would wipe. I couldn't hold agro for the [I cannot control my vocabulary] of me in tank setup on my zerk, but in the past with my dps setup I had no problems doing these once in awhile, it was just harder healing me since I didn't have the cool features of a guardian. This thread can argue that zerks don't need dps anymore but what I think should be done is tweaks to a zerker so that the rest of the non dps aa lines can be used and the zerk still hold agro since his dps is lower and he often then not will never really use a tower while tanking. A zerker who doesn't have bucklar line is the gimpest zerker ever, agro is an issue, trust me I had tested it, but I don't think increasing dps is the way to go. Tweaking our AA's on both trees and maybe giving us more threat with our taunts on non bucklar lines might help. DPS im doing well 2-3k isn't hard per fight when you have proper setup in groups, without it a zerk is subpar anyway. But with it we do enough dps to keep most people eyeballing us and saying [I cannot control my vocabulary] man. Any zerker can dps high on group content, most can't dps high on raid content because they either don't get proper setups or they don't know how to play properly and thats why alot of these zerkers cry about their dps. Ohh btw I know some SK's who do 1500-1900 dps, they just never shutup about it though [Removed for Content]

Giral

05-23-2007, 07:50 PM

<cite>Skeptycal wrote:</cite><blockquote> ............ lol ............ Zerkers need more dps to be IN LINE WITH GUARDIANS !!!!! That's too good =) </blockquote> Rofl

Norrsken

05-23-2007, 07:51 PM

<cite>Bezado wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok im a 70 zerk full eof fabled almost, need my [I cannot control my vocabulary] chest to drop but considering that what I have read in this thread and the concerns of the OP from what I can see is that zerks have no means for threat when they tank with a tower shield or thats what I think is going on here. Ok if this is clearified maybe then I can agree that a zerker vs a guardian in tower would put the guardian way ahead. I had to respec to full tank setup for 2weeks while our guardian was on vacation. It sucked, I had no agro control in this setup, I was 6100 mit unbuffed or so and raid I was 7400 or so mit buffed, with tower on it was the hardest setup ever to tank in for a zerker. Proper hate transfers dige, swashy and before when I use to tank once in awhile like freethinkers or something in my old dps setup I had no problems tanking. The arguement I think here that im seeing is this. I know our guardian has his full eof fabled set and has the best 1hander in game and hes been tank setup and recently switched dps setup bucklar because he got that good 1hander now, hes crushing high dps im not gona lie there, parsing nearly as high as me sometimes but hes got the dirge in his group. I have a coercer but with his dps hes doing 1600-2200 a fight when im doing around the same so with a dirge im higher with my dps setup but I need the proper setup. The arguement here I think is a guardian can hold agro easier with tower tank setup over a zerker whos tower. Because a zerkers threat comes from doing dps and without bucklar and double attack line your chances for holding agro as a zerk are slim to none, so basicly the zerk is almost always having to go dps line while a guardian can maintain good agro threat while tanking in tower. At least this im hoping is what this threads about. In full eof fabled plus contested goodies the dps on guardians and zerks increases by a ton, but only one of these tanks can actually go tank setup without bucklar and still hold agro really well. In certain situations when I was tank setup with my zerk and trying to tank mayong, woushi and rumbler we would wipe. I couldn't hold agro for the [I cannot control my vocabulary] of me in tank setup on my zerk, but in the past with my dps setup I had no problems doing these once in awhile, it was just harder healing me since I didn't have the cool features of a guardian. This thread can argue that zerks don't need dps anymore but what I think should be done is tweaks to a zerker so that the rest of the non dps aa lines can be used and the zerk still hold agro since his dps is lower and he often then not will never really use a tower while tanking. A zerker who doesn't have bucklar line is the gimpest zerker ever, agro is an issue, trust me I had tested it, but I don't think increasing dps is the way to go. Tweaking our AA's on both trees and maybe giving us more threat with our taunts on non bucklar lines might help. DPS im doing well 2-3k isn't hard per fight when you have proper setup in groups, without it a zerk is subpar anyway. But with it we do enough dps to keep most people eyeballing us and saying [I cannot control my vocabulary] man. Any zerker can dps high on group content, most can't dps high on raid content because they either don't get proper setups or they don't know how to play properly and thats why alot of these zerkers cry about their dps. Ohh btw I know some SK's who do 1500-1900 dps, they just never shutup about it though [Removed for Content] </blockquote>Well, sks in dps mode in a proper group to boost their dps should break 2k quite often.

Talathion

05-24-2007, 11:19 AM

Arguably, I now Totally Understand WHY Sk Doesnt Out DPS Zerkers, They would, but they're spells and nukes are resisted alot!Resisting an Attack Doesnt Mean it didnt do anything to him, It means he sort of Shrugged it off, it it barley missed him, I think Resisting Needs to be more of a (60% less damage, hate) but thats not the subject, a Guardian with High Mit Armor, High Prot Tower sheild, and app1 on all spells but taunts, and (50% Chance to cause XX amount of hate per hit) can Hold aggro better then everyone, and still be more effective at tanking then the best berserkers, but Thats ALSO not the subject, but im Just Ending Arguments. Berserkers are either a half-class or a DPS-Tank-Class, we have No Special Abilitys, we're there, we know when we're going to lose, and we have no spells that will totally change the fight in push of a button, everything has to be timed, and studied. you know when your going to win or lose, but your skill determines the fight also, thats why its considered one of the Fun Overpowered classes, I love doing 500 things at once, being rushed, but if you dont like that, Dont play the Class, Youl Lose, youl Fail, Every half a second I either click a taunt or Attack, And Im mashing buttons, and I have to remember every attack, because a wrong one could pull an entire room, its very intense, Ive Played An Assassin, I like it, You Do more DPS Then a berserker, but you only have to push a button every minute or too to do it, Swashbucklers The Most Like Berserker, Same Amount of Mashing involved, But also Considered one of the better classes, But they deserve it for the extra work you do to maintain the DPS.

Shankonia

05-24-2007, 02:15 PM

InsaneChaosMarine wrote: <blockquote>Berserkers have no /escape or any Special Skills that save them, or any Get out of Jail Free Cards like Monk/Bruiser, they also dont have the Avoidence with the DPS. However higher Miti.</blockquote> Get out of jail free cards for Monks and Bruisers? Played a Monk for years, and i'd really like to know which spell it is i'm missing. Our heal? Tsunami? Check out your AA tree Mr. Zerker and you'll see you can have the exact same abilities....oh, and more crit chance, double attacks, alot more mitigation, better AE taunts and crowd control, buffs, debuffs and almost the same amount of irrelevant avoidance.Don't zerkers have an auto rez, or something of that nature? Not sure what it's called but I know I heard or former MT zerker call to the raid that he used it over 100 times.--------------------------------------------------Another thing I really like about this thread is how Monks/Bruisers are not even in the mix in comparison to tanks. Why is this?

Controlor

05-24-2007, 03:16 PM

<cite>Shankonia wrote:</cite><blockquote>InsaneChaosMarine wrote: <blockquote>Berserkers have no /escape or any Special Skills that save them, or any Get out of Jail Free Cards like Monk/Bruiser, they also dont have the Avoidence with the DPS. However higher Miti.</blockquote> Get out of jail free cards for Monks and Bruisers? Played a Monk for years, and i'd really like to know which spell it is i'm missing. Our heal? Tsunami? Check out your AA tree Mr. Zerker and you'll see you can have the exact same abilities....oh, and more crit chance, double attacks, alot more mitigation, better AE taunts and crowd control, buffs, debuffs and almost the same amount of irrelevant avoidance.Don't zerkers have an auto rez, or something of that nature? Not sure what it's called but I know I heard or former MT zerker call to the raid that he used it over 100 times.--------------------------------------------------Another thing I really like about this thread is how Monks/Bruisers are not even in the mix in comparison to tanks. Why is this?</blockquote>Brawlers are tanks they are just single target tanks. Your best at holding agro vs 1 mob not many. This is the way of things however.

Chog

05-25-2007, 01:47 AM

Chiznit

02-19-2008, 08:52 PM

OUR TAUNTS DON"T WORK ... WE GET RESISTED TO MUCH EVEN WITH THE M2 VERSION ... I CAN"T KEEP AGRO OFF A MAGE ANYMORE ......USED TO BE ABLE TO BUT NOT ANYMORE. MAGES WON"T EVEN GROUP WITH A ZERKER ANYMORE .... THEY WANT AMENDS. IF I AM DUEL WELDING WITH 2 WEAPONS THAT PROC THREAT I STILL LOSE AGRO OR THE CASTERS COMPLAIN THAT THEY CAN"T DPS ELSE THEY DIE! IT"S TOTALY UNBALANCED AND NEEDS REPAIR! HERE"S A EXAMPLE I WAS TANKING IN CHELSITH CASTED M2 MOCK GOT 3 RESISTS BEFORE IT LANDED. I ALSO AM AA SPECTED FOR A 10% INCREASE TO THREAT BUT WHAT GOOD IS IT IF I CAN'T LAND A TAUNT. AGGRESSION GEAR IS A JOKE! I HAVE ONLY SEEN ONE OR TWO ITEMS WITH AGGRESSION ON THEM THAT HAVE GOOD STATS, MOST OF IT IS TREASURED JUNK! THEY SAY ZERKERS THREAT COMES FROM OUR DPS WELL IF YOUR IN OFFENSIVE STANCE DON"T BOTHER TANKING HIGH END ZONES YOU"LL GO DOWN LIKE A DRESS WEARER! I KNOW IT"S NOT RIGHT THE PLAYERS KNOW IT"S NOT RIGHT ... SO THE DEVS MOST KNOW THERE IS A PROBLEM.... OR YOU WOULD THINK! I BEEN PLAYING A ZERKER FOR ALOT OF YEARS NOW THEY NERFED OUR DPS AND NEVER COMPENSATED WITH AN INCREASE TO OUR TAUNTS. YA THE MYTHICAL EPIC MIGHT HELP ..... SOME! IF YOUR IN A GUILD THATS ABLE TO OBTAIN IT. BUT FOR A CASUAL PLAYER IT'S NOT THE ANSWER! I HAVE NOTHING MORE TO YELL ABOUT. GOOD-BYE!;P

Besual

02-20-2008, 05:17 AM

<cite>Chiznit wrote:</cite><blockquote> OUR TAUNTS DON"T WORK ... WE GET RESISTED TO MUCH EVEN WITH THE M2 VERSION ... I CAN"T KEEP AGRO OFF A MAGE ANYMORE ......USED TO BE ABLE TO BUT NOT ANYMORE. MAGES WON"T EVEN GROUP WITH A ZERKER ANYMORE .... THEY WANT AMENDS. IF I AM DUEL WELDING WITH 2 WEAPONS THAT PROC THREAT I STILL LOSE AGRO OR THE CASTERS COMPLAIN THAT THEY CAN"T DPS ELSE THEY DIE! IT"S TOTALY UNBALANCED AND NEEDS REPAIR! HERE"S A EXAMPLE I WAS TANKING IN CHELSITH CASTED M2 MOCK GOT 3 RESISTS BEFORE IT LANDED. I ALSO AM AA SPECTED FOR A 10% INCREASE TO THREAT BUT WHAT GOOD IS IT IF I CAN'T LAND A TAUNT. AGGRESSION GEAR IS A JOKE! I HAVE ONLY SEEN ONE OR TWO ITEMS WITH AGGRESSION ON THEM THAT HAVE GOOD STATS, MOST OF IT IS TREASURED JUNK! THEY SAY ZERKERS THREAT COMES FROM OUR DPS WELL IF YOUR IN OFFENSIVE STANCE DON"T BOTHER TANKING HIGH END ZONES YOU"LL GO DOWN LIKE A DRESS WEARER! I KNOW IT"S NOT RIGHT THE PLAYERS KNOW IT"S NOT RIGHT ... SO THE DEVS MOST KNOW THERE IS A PROBLEM.... OR YOU WOULD THINK! I BEEN PLAYING A ZERKER FOR ALOT OF YEARS NOW THEY NERFED OUR DPS AND NEVER COMPENSATED WITH AN INCREASE TO OUR TAUNTS. YA THE MYTHICAL EPIC MIGHT HELP ..... SOME! IF YOUR IN A GUILD THATS ABLE TO OBTAIN IT. BUT FOR A CASUAL PLAYER IT'S NOT THE ANSWER! I HAVE NOTHING MORE TO YELL ABOUT. GOOD-BYE!;P</blockquote>Not sure if you have already noticed but your caps lock seems to be broken.

Zeuhl

02-20-2008, 05:57 PM

Necro post FTL. And our dps has not been nerfed it just didn't increase as much this expansion as everyone else's.

Lana

03-04-2008, 01:57 PM

The thing that I find really funny about this thread is that all the people that are calling the OP a [Removed for Content], are all guards.If you aren't a berserker, then you really shouldn't open your mouth and say the class is fine. Just my opinion......but who really cares what I think?

LygerT

03-04-2008, 04:13 PM

why do people keep dragging this thread up? there is no way they will give zerks more DPS in this expansion, excluding the mythical because that is avatar/contested specific. nothing will be changed until next expansion where i would expect to see plate fighter DPS to hold consistent and tauns bumped up or new taunt abilities added to compensate for the new DPS that other classes will be getting. zerks have been gimped in the DPS department because of aggro mechanics while trying to hold tank DPS to the minimum they possibly can to give pure DPS their reason for being. to the person with the broken caps lock, our aggro ability in offense is fine. problem is you must have a proper group to hold aggro in this expansion otherwise you have the scenario you described.

zormik

03-05-2008, 10:27 AM

Yes the mythical weapon is designed for avatars/contested but has anybody actually tried to hit lvl88's with that weapon? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />It's horrible, by example, against avatar of justice (lvl 88x4) in def. stance your hitrate is a staggering 10%.But on topic. Zerkers are a nice and fun class for heroic content. But in a min/max environment they badly need some help.Most comments are from people with few or less raidingexperience. But the all the serious raiders will tell you the same. Zerkers got the shaft, big time. Time to revamp the class, they badly need it, with the diminshing returns curve and everybody being overcap on hast/dps, ... they complete lost their edge in dps...

Evenstar

03-05-2008, 12:24 PM

Give druids instant casting/instant recast 5k wards while you're at it =).we have a berserker MT who doesn't know how NOT to take aggro...so..I agree with the 1st reply:"Umm....no"

03-05-2008, 12:42 PM

<cite>Charmeur@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Zerkers got the shaft, big time. Time to revamp the class, they badly need it, with the diminshing returns curve and everybody being overcap on hast/dps, ... they complete lost their edge in dps...</blockquote>/agreeThis is the big point to me. If you want to say that Zerkers are the offensive version of the Guardian that sounds good to me. However in the modern game the "class defining" abilities of a berserker like say... Berserk, just doesn't matter anymore in a raid. Diminishing returns is a good idea, however classes like Zerkers should have been changed in concept at some point because the SOFT cap didn't jump up to compensate, when everyone else's buffs increased. At that point berserkers could have been given an exception to the diminishing returns rule or berserk could have been changed to add in a modifier like +75 to combat arts or when berserk your recharge timers are reduced 25% or +30% to crit. Something to modify damage that isn't caught up into the diminishing returns.Personally with 24 classes in the game, it is absurd that 9 times out of 10, the Guardian is the obvious pick for who to tank. I say this because the original philosophy of EQ2 was that all figthers could tank. Monk/Bruisers they tried for years to get the avoidance system to work and just couldn't, and the devs admitted it. However the rest of the fighters should not have the gap they do between their ability to tank and the guardian. I do NOT want guardians nerfed, I think though all the plate tanks should have a role in tanking. Let the make-up of the raid force and the situation of the battle choose your tank, not the button at character creation.

Suraklin

03-05-2008, 12:45 PM

<cite>Kenman@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>uux wrote:</cite><blockquote>The +melee skills that a guardian gets is pretty much one of the only offensive buffs that class gets. Compare that to what a berserker gets and yes, it is quite a bit less offensive. By ignoring the big picture it sure does sound like guardians have it better. They don't. Do yourself a favor and don't worry about what a guardian gets.Except when the berserker only hits the mob 50% of the time unless grouped with somebody that buffs melee skills, while the guardian doesn't have anywhere near that issue kind of makes them on par in dps in similar situations single target.There is a number of reasons why certain abilities do not compare equally when examined alone, like the passive Taunting Defense vs Hold the Line abilities. Berserkers also have Weapon Aegis, Open Wounds, Destruction, Insolent Gibe, Wall of Ferocity, frontal barrage, and an encounter proc on the offensive stance (and yes, I tank offensive a lot). That's a lot of AE aggro that a guardian does not have. I left out an encounter AE and another out of encounter AE because a guardian also has similar. With that in mind, why should the berserker passive hate when hit ability be better than or equal to a guardians? Also, a guardian's is completely useless when solo.Oh, you mean how Hold the Line procs 50% of the time for more overall hate as opposed to the Taunting Defense proccing only 20% for less? Reinforcement is *far* more useful than insolent gibe, so what's the issue here? Other than the zerker getting ripped off that is.Wall of Ferocity? Wow, I didn't know guardians lost Wall of Force.The frontal barrage? Utter crap. Unless you're fighting an encounter with at least 3 mobs you benefit moreso from just autoattacking instead, and if you're fighting an encoutner with at least 3 mobs, they're so incredibly uncommon outside of PPR that you're better off popping Open Wounds and autoattacking. In fact, this general rule goes for the other two AOEs bersekers have as well.Destruction and Open Wounds are the only two that make the berserker stand out, and yet for some reason I think I'd much rather, at the very least, have Tower of Stone than both of them. Comparing EoF AA trees and EoF fabled gear sets is a joke as well. There is not much they can add to the berserker class and not make it a bit overpowering. Guardians get a reduction in the timer of Reinforcement? So what. If they need to use it more often that means they're losing aggro more often. It's a recovery tool. Berserkers have defensive options as well. Longer mitigation buffs, bigger debuffs. Discredit them if you like, but they exist and believe it or not they have a use. Berserkers can increase their AE damage and reduce taunt resists. That's even more aggro.Overpowering? You're seriously suggesting that the only way to make EoF fabled berserker pants not overpowering is to put 10 health regen on it? Man, even flowing thought 3 is more useful than that. But that'd be overpowered I guess. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" />It doesn't mean they're losing aggro more often, it simply gives them far more aggro generating ability if they use it properly. Memwipes? A complete joke. AE aggro? Reinforcement + Besiege, viola. And say you happen to die twice in a fight for whatever reason. The zerker blows rescue and is completely screwed on the second time, the guard simply goes to reinforcement. Or better yet, uses tower of stone and doesn't die in the first place.Increase AE damage? Even with 5 points in them you're usually better off just freaking autoattacking with double attack instead of wasting the cast time on the crappy things.Berserkers maintain aggro just fine. We're a little less effecient at aggro recovery with only one ability that increases hate position, but that is hardly a problem if your group/raid acknowledges that aggro management is a team effort.Of course we maintain aggro fine, we tank fine as well. It doesn't change the fact that Guardians can parse around 2k dps, have far more skills for surviability and recovering aggro when tanking, and with a good swashy they aren't going to lose AE aggro anyway.Basically, unless your guild only raids PPR there's not exactly a reason to take a Berserker over a Guardian ever. Personally, if I wasn't fully mastered I've had betrayed to a Guardian long ago."long ago", eh? So, you could have been a fully mastered guardian by now. Obviously something has kept you as a berserker. I guess the grass isn't so much greener on the other side that it's worth switching.It's moreso the fact of me being too lazy to farm more plat, and being attached to something I've spent about 400p getting fully mastered on.</blockquote>I just don't think the slight gap between berserker and guardian dps really justifies all the crap Guardians get over Berserkers in tanking ability. At any rate, of course I've been working on leveling a Guardian up as well. I already love my Guardian more too. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Don't worry Zerkers they'll eventually NGE this game like they did SWG and remove the class completely from game and make you all Guardians, at the rate this game is going in the fact that there are too many broken classes to fix.

03-05-2008, 01:04 PM

<cite>Suraklin wrote:</cite><blockquote>Don't worry Zerkers they'll eventually NGE this game like they did SWG and remove the class completely from game and make you all Guardians, at the rate this game is going in the fact that there are too many broken classes to fix.</blockquote>Hey...if we can all sit in chairs, then it is all good! :-)

Gladiia

03-05-2008, 02:07 PM

<cite>Bunn@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Suraklin wrote:</cite><blockquote>Don't worry Zerkers they'll eventually NGE this game like they did SWG and remove the class completely from game and make you all Guardians, at the rate this game is going in the fact that there are too many broken classes to fix.</blockquote>Hey...if we can all sit in chairs, then it is all good! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote>yeah, let us just sit in chairs. 24 broken classes is to much to deal with, even if all 24 are broken yet almost in line.....yeah.There isn't a class that people don't complain about. There isn't a class that people don't ooh-ahh at.

03-05-2008, 03:38 PM

"The Berserker is the personification of unbridled aggression and fury. They are fearsome opponents, especially when facing many foes at once. Berserkers stand at the forefront of battle, unleashing their devastating rage upon the enemy while keeping unwanted attention away from their allies. " -Everquest2.com, description of berserker<hr />I like the description of the Berserker, I think most berserkers do, but I don't think the berserker community thinks this description applies in game.

LygerT

03-05-2008, 04:12 PM

i still feel it somewhat applies, IF i have more than 1 mob in front of me. the more the merrier, too bad AE encounters were an afterthought in T8.

Trynnus1

03-05-2008, 06:11 PM

I have my fingures crossed for Kurn tower with 4-5 mobs encounters with CC immunity then you see in channel "group LFG AEO tank"

LygerT

03-06-2008, 03:38 PM

i have my fingers crossed the devs finally read one of the dozen threads strewn around here and the "other site" and finally get a [Removed for Content] clue. even though the complaints have severely slowed does not mean we are even remotely near happy, what it does mean is there is so few left to give suggestions/complaints anymore. if they have finally gotten started working on the changes to the combat system and classes then i think it would be in their best interest to finally let people know that things are in progress.

Marie-Ange Jourdelune

03-07-2008, 03:14 PM

<cite>farcryfromdawow wrote:</cite><blockquote>Zerks deserve a dps boost imo. They keep agro by dps and not by taunts. A zerks taunts are longer cast then other tanks. Guardians virtually are threat machines and paladins have amends. SK's well they have all sorts things to do to get threat but rarely just MT. A zerk in my opinion is far behind in putting out threat and dps. Have you seen guardians DPS lately with DPS AA spec??? My concern is that zerks need more quicker taunts or increased threat. We need more DPS. This isn't a whine but a examination from in game vs the Guardian and other tanks. Berserkers got hosed and put in the back in terms of DPS and threat. A zerker can parse high on multiple mobs with his ae's but thats every minute+ and destruction isn't exactly a quick casting AE ability. Our DPS against a target lets say in raid thats on a wizard or necro is hard for us to pull agro to get the mob off. SImply our DPS is lower, our TAUNTS have longer recast timers and we are left to push Rescue which fails allot. Monks bruisers turn on their little agro things and pull off so quickly. So do SK's and Pally, while Zerks are little left behind. Either we MT and tank AA spec to be decent and then loose agro constantly because our DPS is so low or we AA DPS spec and our tankability is low. Its hard for them as tank spec to pull agro to get mobs off raid people, which basicly means they are worthless tank spec. We need Zerks DPS boosted or threat increased somehow to give them the ability to tank decent plus hold agro. A guardian now is TOP DOG on tank + DPS. They go DPS spec and can tank really nice + DPS really well. A guardian DPS AA spec with same group setup as zerker can just pull the mob off anyone easy. Not using rescue. I just want my Zerker to be a viable offtank in pulling mobs off people in raids when they agro them from to much DPS and draging back to MT. I think you gave monks bruisers the luxery of pulling agro whenever they want is wrong, why can't a zerker do that? SK have ways to do this to quickly deathmarch etc. + taunts without using Rescue. Zerks get what? Slow taunts, relay on using Rescue with a long cooldown to pull agro. I would apreciate it and the Zerker community if you would take a look at zerker DPS threat and agro management vs Guardians for raiding. Its true zerks can DPS high but only on multiple targets with AE's on Destruction Open wounds etc; but thats every 2min almost, plus slow cast timer on destruction. I am saying Zerk DPS is way below Guardians and well below what it should be to normally make them be a viable offtank on raids anymore. Zerks voice your opinions please let the DEVS hear and adjust us. We are suppose to be the DPS tank and thats where we get our threat from is DPS. Guardians have better version of our taunting defense etc and can still out DPS us on single targets and hold agro better. Being a zerker you only got 1 option to be able to offtank well and thats going DPS spec. Tank spec makes you a complete useless tank class. What do you Zerks think? </blockquote>All valid points. But you know how it work with SOE...They will nerf guardians DPS.Marie-Ange