Auctioning No-Trade Loot: Right or Wrong?

[Myk]

<p>I have noticed quite a bit of auctioning of No-Trade loot on my server's Level 60 chat channel.  I find myself increasingly annoyed by this and wanted to see what others thought of the practice.</p><p> IMO, items that are flagged as No-Trade were intended to go to the guild or group that went through the effort of acquiring them with no chance to be compensated monetarily.  Likewise, individuals who made no direct effort or contribution can now simply purchase items without going through the normal game and character progression.  In most cases, what we end up with are the top guilds getting extemely rich, cluttering of chat channels with auctions (with the obligatory "Thank you [guild name]!" msg), and people acquiring gear that, IMO, they do not deserve.  At best, I feel the practice is unethical, and at worst, I believe it is an exploit.</p><p> So, are the guilds and groups who engage in this practice merely capitalizing on the free market and game mechanics or are they doing an end around on a system that intended No-Trade loot not to be sold?</p>

[Kaleyen]

Well what's happening (I would imagine) is that these guilds are running into EoF raid zones and they're getting loot that they can't use.  So instead of looting it and either transmuting it or selling it to the vendor they are auctioning it out to the playerbase. Personally, I see nothing wrong with that.  If a guild runs through FTH and they get 1-2 pieces of usable loot the least they can do is get some guild compensation through funds from the rest.

[Geothe]

<p>as the above poster said.</p><p>This is a result of more and more gear for specific classes only as well as, at times, high occurance of specific pieces dropping from certain mobs.</p><p>And once you get said gear to every possible person in your guild and there is no one else that can equip it there are only a couple of choices left.</p><p>1) Transmute it for a 20% chance of getting a hardened mana</p><p>2) Let it rot.</p><p>3) Auction to outsiders for cash to guild bank/repair compensation for raiders.</p><p>#3 sure sounds like a good choice to me. heh.</p>

[Myk]

<p>I understand <i>why</i> guilds auction off the No-Trade loot, but is it right, ethical, and/or within the rules to do so?  There are quite a few things one can technically do in this game that many others would find unethical and possibly even cheating.</p><p>IMO, SOE made No-Trade loot that way for a reason, primarily so people could not acquire loot that is difficult to acquire (by progressing/learning their toon, joining a guild, and progressing as a guild) by simply purchasing the gear from a guild that has progressed far ahead of most others.  IMO, buying gear in this manner cheapens the game and the accomplishments of others.  To suggest that the more advanced guilds are providing a service to the player base is simply not true.  On the contrary, they are minimizing the game for everyone else.  I have trouble respecting people who would go out and buy uber No-Trade loot... loot they did not earn themsleves.  They may as well just buy a well-equipped toon off E-Bay.</p><p>I would love to hear from a GM to see what they think about the practice.</p>

[Kaleyen]

It's no different then bringing in an alt to loot something if nobody on the raid can use it.  Or bringing in another guild member that wasn't in the 24 man raid.

[Gungo]

<p>A developer once posted on this issue and said that selling no trade loot is not against the game rules, although he said it was not ment to be sold and thought any guilds who did such practices were personally wrong. I agree with those sentiments and any guild who participates in such practices is just about as morally ethical as the people who steal named. While its in the rules to do so it is generally not an ethical practice. I also find these are the same guilds who run into morally unacceptable practices like yelling the rumbler, or exploiting mobs because in thier eyes its reasonable.</p>

[Gungo]

Liluk@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>It's no different then bringing in an alt to loot something if nobody on the raid can use it.  Or bringing in another guild member that wasn't in the 24 man raid. </blockquote>I disagree its the difference of letting a friend or family member use your account and selling your account to a stranger. While both are unaccetpable one is defintely worse.

[Myk]

Liluk@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>It's no different then bringing in an alt to loot something if nobody on the raid can use it.  Or bringing in another guild member that wasn't in the 24 man raid. </blockquote><p> Nope, not even close.  You took one similarity and called it the same.  The only similarity is the fact that someone not in on the kill loots the item.  Here's how it's different:</p><p> 1)  The alt looting the item is likely using DKP from the main in order to acquire the item.  This is the way it's worked in every guild I've been in.  So, one is using "raid tender" to acquire the item, tender (DKP) that has been accumulated while putting in time/effort in order to help the guild to progress to the point to kill said MOB.  In the auctioning of an item, someone is simply forking over some plat that could have been earned in a variety of ways.</p><p>2)  The alt himself likely helped the guild progress.  If an individual has more than one lvl 70 toon, it is likely that this person has raided with his guild on several toons.  Loot goes to a player and not just to his toon... sure, the toon in the current raid should be the one bidding, but if nobody wants it, there is no harm from an ethics standpoint, IMO, for an alt to loot the item.  Not only did this alt likely help in raids in the past, but the alt will likely help in the future.  </p><p>3)  The loot is being kept "in-house" to help the guild and not going to the general player base to those who played no part or role in the guild progressing to that point.</p><p>4)  There is no cluttering of any public chat channels.</p>

[Obadiah]

I'd really like to see that developer post. I fail to see how this could possibly be conceived as immoral or unethical. If anything, to me it seems <b>generous</b>. The guild that killed the mob gets some coin worth more than the hardened mana, and some non-raiding player that might have a stack of plat with nothing to spend it on gets an item they would otherwise never see. Win-win. If the chests lasted longer from heroic instances I would love to see the same thing there. If a group I'm in hacks through Unrest and gets a monk chest piece drop at the end, I'll sign in my level 22 monk before I let it go to someone's deity altar or transmuting board. If no one in the group has any applicable alts, well, I guess I'd rather find someone else that can use the item then just burn it. Go ahead, call me a commie. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Wes]

<p>I personally sit back, play my toon, and not worry about what the rest of the player-base does....Therefore, i dont care what they do with the loot they get.  <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Edit**  They put they time in, killed the hard raid mob, it's their loot, let them do what they want with it....<img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[FightGame]

I don't see a problem with it.  People say they don't deserve it because they weren't there for the kill...well what else are people suppose to do with all their plat?  They had to earn the plat to begin with, in order to buy the no-trade gear.  So, they are kinda earning it.  And people are only going to get a couple pieces like this, it's not like they will be entirely outfitted.  Theoretically I guess they could, but it would take forever.  By the time they get 1/2 of the outfit, a new expansion and new gear would be out.  Alot of people have loads of plat, and should have something they can spend it on.  Not saying you should be able buy your way to uberness, but again, I don't see this happening.

[Kocia]

<p> Humanity faces many problems...</p><p> 30k people die daily of hunger.  At least a billion human beings live their lives in poverty.</p><p>And there of course, is the auctioning of no-trade loot.</p>

[Mareth]

Gungo@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote><p>A developer once posted on this issue and said that selling no trade loot is not against the game rules, although he said it was not ment to be sold and thought any guilds who did such practices were personally wrong. <b>I agree with those sentiments and any guild who participates in such practices is just about as morally ethical as the people who steal named.</b> While its in the rules to do so it is generally not an ethical practice. I also find these are the same guilds who run into morally unacceptable practices like yelling the rumbler, or exploiting mobs because in thier eyes its reasonable.</p></blockquote>Yes, because selling no-trade loot hinders someone else, right? Uhm... I really don't see the problem with it myself, as someone else said it's a win-win. Those who got a chest they can't use get some money for it, and someone who has EARNED a lot of money get something to spend it on.

[Builttolast]

<p>I had no problems doing this in FFXI with contested raid mobs (especially those that popped once every RL week).  It was the only way some people could get status items,  and if you can sit patiently for 24 hours just to get a TOD,  and wait around for a raid to kill it so you can get the guaranteed drop (that they would have discarded otherwise) I have no problems rewarding them financially,  and often these items were auctioned for millions of gil as the demand for them was high.</p><p>I would rather give someone the opportunity to get an item they can use,  than watch it go to waste.  I personally wouldn't sell it but I can agree with those who do.</p>

[Myk]

For those who do not see a problem with it, I see two prevailing arguments: 1)  It's a win-win for both parties involved, so there is no harm. 2)  Those with the plat to afford such items earned the buying power to purchase those items, so it's ok Imo, both arguments are flawed and I have yet to see anyone address the fact that the items are No-Trade and the intent of the game developers.  Why do you people who support this practice believe the items have been flagged as No-Trade?  What do you think was the intent behind this? Now, on to why I believe the main counter-arguments are flawed. 1)  It may be a win-win for both parties directly involved, but IMO, it hurts the integrity of the game.  There are plenty of in-game examples where there is no direct victim and only "winners".  For example, why should nobody be allowed to buy plat?  The farmer got RL money and the player got the ability to purchase items without putting in the effort, right?  Wrong!  It hurts the game as plat farmers oftentimes camp an area that might ordinarily be hunted by actual players, plat farmers oftentimes interfere with gameplay through unethical behavior, and they inflate the economy which has a negative impact on everyone.  In the case of selling/buying no-trade loot, content becomes trivial faster and skill and/or effort from an adventuring standpoint does not match the level of gear worn by the toon. 2)  To be quite frank, someone is cheating if they have a lot of plat and use it to buy items they could not ordinarily attain.  People who engage in this are going around the intent of No-Trade loot.  No-trade loot was not intended to be sold which is why it is flagged as no-trade.  Only tradeable items are able to be sold, so the mere fact that it is <i>possible</i> to bid on items for plat and zone in to a zone to loot an item is going around this game mechanism.  I may be in violation of the EULA myself b/c I'm drawing attention to this matter, but in my own defense, this practice is so prevalent and out in the open, I think voicing my concerns is entirely justified as it's no secret.  Here is the section on exploits from the EULA which I think applies very well to the practice of auctioning off no-trade loot (I italicized the applicable section): <b>12. You will not exploit any bug in EverQuest II and you will not communicate the existence of any such exploitable bug <i>(bugs that grant the user unnatural or unintended benefits in game)</i>, either directly or through public posting, to any other user of EverQuest II. You will promptly report any such bug via the in-game "/bug" command. You may also report any such bugs/exploits by submitting a customer service help ticket through our in-game petition process. </b>C'mon, I have yet to hear anyone tell me why my arguments are wrong and am just hearing excuses and justifications for a practice that hurts the game.  And, yes, I have already /reported this issue. <a href="http://help.station.sony.com/cgi-bin/soe.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=16213" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://help.station.sony.com/cgi-bi...p?p_faqid=16213</a>

[Renvhoek]

well you have no official statement as to why the loot is tagged no trade. You don't know the reasons behind it other than (it's not tradable). the people are paying for the rights to loot it. there's countless guilds that spend a lot of time farming these mobs for items they need but majority of the time they get stuff they can't use, already have, or wouldn't use, it's wasted time and wasted effort in my opinion, and at the very least it's not wasted loot at the moment.

[Obadiah]

Your opinions are not necessarily the intent of the Developers. You're not wrong, because you've clearly stated that it's your opinion, which you are entitled to. It would have been simple enough for them to implement a mechanic preventing someone from entering a raid party or raid zone from the outside to loot a chest or receive the chest loot. Just restrict the raid party members from changing until the chest has been looted. It would also suck. I don't know what server you're on, but it sure doesn't happen very often on Everfrost. I'm on almost every night for various amounts of time and I think I've seen it three times.

[Myk]

Intent is inherently unwritten and/or unspoken... it is usually inferred through logic.  I imagine everyone would concede that the designers did not randomly flag some loot as tradeable and some loot as no-trade.  They did not roll a die or flip a coin when deciding, right?  So, no, I can not point to anything in writing from the designers, I can merely infer their intent which is obvious to me.  They also can not think of every possible exploit, so they include a phrase like this into the EULA as a catch-all for a variety of situations which, IMO, applies in this case: <b><i>bugs that grant the user unnatural or unintended benefits in game</i></b>

[Builttolast]

<p>If they truly want a solution to the problem then take away the need to sell no-trade.  All people want is reward for their effort,  and under the current system sometimes the only way is to sell gear that would otherwise be discarded (due to a poorly designed system).  </p><p>The ball is in their court and they have the power to change it.  </p>

[Judist]

<p>Its not like this hasn't been done for a very long time. It's just happening more because of the no-trade hat/chest pieces in Unrest. SOE knows this practice exists and if they deemed it an exploit it would have been fixed a very long time ago.</p><p>Selling only benifits the group who otherwise would see it rott. Buying is a personal decision of the player on whether he earned it or not. Regardless of the personal decision or morals, SOE will allow it.</p>

[sah]

<p>I'm too lazy to read the entire thread so I don't know if it's been mentioned before, but I remember reading something from a dev (not sure if it was here or on one of the chats), where he said that his guild gives away no-trade loot that they don't need...giving something away is essentially the same as selling it for 0cp so I assume that means it's not against the rules...</p><p>Also, it has already been mentioned before, it would take almost no effort for a dev to stop this if they thought it was against the rules.  The code is already in the game.  All they have to do is extend the code that prevents players from looting a chest that's not theirs to prevent them from looting an item in a chest that's not theirs...</p>

[Kocia]

<p>On 60 minutes this Sunday:</p><p>The Horrible Truth of No-Trade Loot Auctioning.....tune in, you won't believe the horror!</p>

[Will.]

<cite>Mykin wrote:</cite><blockquote>Intent is inherently unwritten and/or unspoken... it is usually inferred through logic.  I imagine everyone would concede that the designers did not randomly flag some loot as tradeable and some loot as no-trade.  They did not roll a die or flip a coin when deciding, right?  So, no, I can not point to anything in writing from the designers, I can merely infer their intent which is obvious to me.  They also can not think of every possible exploit, so they include a phrase like this into the EULA as a catch-all for a variety of situations which, IMO, applies in this case: <b><i>bugs that grant the user unnatural or unintended benefits in game</i></b></blockquote> Hmm, so which bug is being exploited? The ability to add people to a raid across zones? The ability to open a chest and not loot it right then? The ability to exchange coin between characters? If you've found an exploit do what the devs have said time and time again: /report it. Don't come onto the forums and talk about it. In fact that ought to be your clue that this isn't an exploit: this thread hasn't been deleted yet. Whether or not the practice is unethical, promoting it to the rank of duping items or kiting nameds on stairs is ridiculous.

[Ciarr]

<p>it was certainly not suppose to be auctioned, as in 'it's not what developers intendent no-trade tag for'... there is nothing in EULA prohibits it so it's perfectly legal, probably something which could be called 'unintended side effects of game mechanics'</p><p>this being said, it always give a good laugh reading some raiders crying that people getting items they don't 'deserve', you can go on 1 pickup raid and win it via /random... many people don't bother with DKP and all that 'right' systems to distribute loots... (and yes I was on EoF pickup-raids so it's not like it does not haappen ....)</p><p>plus on the top of it I find these cries mostly coming from what I call '<i>sheep raiders</i>' people who's biggest contribution to raid is that they have time to spend and understand basic commands 'attack', 'move', 'hold dps' and a few more.... The only person who <b><i>deserve </i></b>loots in raid is usually a raid leader for extra effort to organize people, control them and force to follow what's best for raid... on rare occasions there are 2-3 more people doing some splendid work in raid but that's about it, in most cases 90% of the raid force do nothing else than they would do on HoF run.... and there are no fabled loots in HoF for that...</p>

[Caetrel]

<cite>Ciarrai wrote:</cite><blockquote> The only person who <b><i>deserve </i></b>loots in raid is usually a raid leader for extra effort to organize people, control them and force to follow what's best for raid... on rare occasions there are 2-3 more people doing some splendid work in raid but that's about it, in most cases 90% of the raid force do nothing else than they would do on HoF run.... and there are no fabled loots in HoF for that...</blockquote>As a raid leader for the last 2+ years I have to say this is nonsense.  The people in my guild bust their arses and are smart, diligent players.  We only raid 3 nights a week and keep up with the other guilds on our raiding-heavy server, beating content that other guilds spend 5-6 nights a week to beat.   No one is going to make much progress into EH or really any EoF zones with a buncha zombies along for the ride.   I don't think your observation applies to any serious raiding guild.

[Ciarr]

<cite>Caetrel wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ciarrai wrote:</cite><blockquote> The only person who <b><i>deserve </i></b>loots in raid is <span style="color: #ff0000">usually</span> a raid leader for extra effort to organize people, control them and force to follow what's best for raid... on rare occasions there are 2-3 more people doing some splendid work in raid but that's about it, in <span style="color: #ff0033">most cases </span>90% of the raid force do <span style="color: #66cc33">nothing else than they would do on HoF run</span>.... and there are no fabled loots in HoF for that... </blockquote>As a raid leader for the last 2+ years I have to say this is nonsense.  The people in my guild bust their arses and are smart, diligent players.  We only raid 3 nights a week and keep up with the other guilds on our raiding-heavy server, beating content that other guilds spend 5-6 nights a week to beat.   No one is going to make much progress into EH or really any EoF zones with a buncha zombies along for the ride.   I don't think your observation applies to any serious raiding guild. </blockquote><p>you've missed a few keywords in my post so I highlighted them in red/green, the nature of generalization like that is that it does not apply to everyone out there, it is also possible that what you refer to as smart & diligent is what I consider a basic routine of playing the class</p>

[SinIsLaw]

<cite>Mykin wrote:</cite><blockquote>I may be in violation of the EULA myself b/c I'm drawing attention to this matter, but in my own defense, this practice is so prevalent and out in the open, I think voicing my concerns is entirely justified as it's no secret.  Here is the section on exploits from the EULA which I think applies very well to the practice of auctioning off no-trade loot (I italicized the applicable section): <b>12. You will not exploit any bug in EverQuest II and you will not communicate the existence of any such exploitable bug <i>(bugs that grant the user unnatural or unintended benefits in game)</i>, either directly or through public posting, to any other user of EverQuest II. You will promptly report any such bug via the in-game "/bug" command. You may also report any such bugs/exploits by submitting a customer service help ticket through our in-game petition process. </b>C'mon, I have yet to hear anyone tell me why my arguments are wrong and am just hearing excuses and justifications for a practice that hurts the game.  And, yes, I have already /reported this issue. <a href="http://help.station.sony.com/cgi-bin/soe.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=16213" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://help.station.sony.com/cgi-bi...p?p_faqid=16213</a> </blockquote> I do think you read a bit to much into the EULA, a player who buys stuff via the OOC will not gain Unnatural or intended benefits (like speed hacks of god mode)!!! IMHO in a way, you kill all your own arguments, by saying "twinking" is alright "selling is wrong"  - The matter of fact, most guilds will 1st equip the raiders who are not in the raid zone and charge DKP for them, then twink their alts and charge DKP for them and poss had it to friends outside the guild and sort it out some arrangement ... and likely only the you will see the OOC of trying to sell it. And why not, if you don't want, ignore it ... your getting annoyed by people trying to sell no trade loot? Heck do you know how annoyed I am about people trying to sell Tradable loot in the channles ... That is what we got a broker for ... at least the no trade is on a timer and these guilds don't spam the channels for 2 days with the same [Removed for Content] ... Just because an item has a no trade flag, it doesn't mean it can/shouldn't be distributed like other items, if that would be the case, then SoE please change ALL fabled items to no trade including masters ... after all a lot of peeps just by them form Vendors with ingame earned cash and have not contributed in earning that! Really, why should it be allowed to sell, say bloodsoaked Gauntlets and not guardian set gloves ??!!?? Just cause one is tagged as "no-trade" At the end of the day it is up to the guilds, who sell these items - if they really can be asked to slow down their raid to sell of the loot via the channles or not!!! Some do, some don't ...and for the once who do it is a nice income to the guild funds - which are often used to cover repair costs, potions etc etc! So I'm sorry if you disagree, but really you don't have a case - you are not saying "NO" to distributing loot outside of a 24 people raid,  you  say pro Twink and no sell ... so you can't have both! And I would hate to see any change to the game blocking this, twinking is fun ... and also, we have often people who sit out on a raid, rdy to fill in a spott if needed,  and they should be all of sudden excluded form the raid ... nope not fair  really

[Triste-Lune]

if you have loot no one wants and can make someone happy by selling it to him why should that be wrong, i m fed up of transmuting the loot we put effort in.

[Frodex]

All you people against haven't spent 10+ plat on a weekend in EH and do it every weekend over and over. Now I'll admit as you raid more and raid in a zone and its on "farm status" you spend less. But that money could be used to be uber rare masters for new comers or even upgrade your guilds adornments. I am all for it because you can be uber fabled out guild and still suck at the game.

[Kenazeer]

<p>I think your main confusion here is that your are taking a restriction upon movement as an intended restriction upon sale. "No Trade" simply means just that; once it is in your inventory it is yours forever. In that sense, there is a secondary restriction upon the item entering the market, but there is nothing at all to keep one from selling looting rights. </p><p>Further, this has always gone on in games, a fact I am 100% positive of which all the devs are aware, yet there was no primary restriction placed into the mechanics to keep it from happening in EQ2. </p><p>Additionally, there is no <b>specific</b> reference to this being against the rules in either the EULA or TOS. </p><p>Finally, it has been brought up publicly, and even commented upon by the devs, yet no effort whatsoever has been made by SOE to curb this behavior. </p><p>It is pretty clear SOE does not consider the selling of looting rights to be any type of actionable offense. It may be your opinion that it is against the rules, but SOE differs.</p>

[Roriondesexiest]

<p>If you don't like it don't buy it...</p><p>Running a raid guild/group isn't cheap, repair kits, potions, masters, etc.  </p><p>Some have brought up that they didn't earn it so shouldn't be able to buy it.</p><p>HOS and Lyceum is full of fabled gear that raiders sell on the broker, is that wrong?  Fabled gear from the EH recipes can be sold on the broker also.  None of this was "earned" by the person that buys it but in most cases their coin was earned (I guess you could buy plat, lol)</p><p>BTW if you are on Lucan D'Lere Rorion has lots of nice Fabled gear and masters on the broker check it out <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Ganlu]

The way people call things in a game "unethical" or "immoral" boggles my mind. There is nothing wrong with it, and saying that guilds that take part in it are prone to be dishonest is asinine.  Something is flagged as No-Trade to indicate that once it has been picked up, it can't be handed to someone else - it does NOT mean that no one outside the "killing party" is allowed to loot it. I remember when I was working on Cloak of Flames, a page I needed dropped for someone else, and they let me loot it because they already had it.  I wasn't in their group at the time, but I looted their No-Trade item - what's the difference?  That he didn't charge me?  Who cares, it takes money to run successful raids, and there's nothing wrong with a raid group wanting to get some kind of compensation for a piece of equipment they can't even use. Plus, this gives people who dislike raiding a chance to use some of their hard-earned money and actually get a piece or two of raiding level equipment.  I fail to see how this impacts anyone. And to the person saying it's "win-win" for someone buying platinum, that argument is so dumb it hurts.  Supporting plat farmers only increases their influence over a game.  Paying money for a no-trade item in an instance is nowhere near the same.

[Caetrel]

<cite>Ciarrai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Caetrel wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ciarrai wrote:</cite><blockquote> The only person who <b><i>deserve </i></b>loots in raid is <span style="color: #ff0000">usually</span> a raid leader for extra effort to organize people, control them and force to follow what's best for raid... on rare occasions there are 2-3 more people doing some splendid work in raid but that's about it, in <span style="color: #ff0033">most cases </span>90% of the raid force do <span style="color: #66cc33">nothing else than they would do on HoF run</span>.... and there are no fabled loots in HoF for that... </blockquote>As a raid leader for the last 2+ years I have to say this is nonsense.  The people in my guild bust their arses and are smart, diligent players.  We only raid 3 nights a week and keep up with the other guilds on our raiding-heavy server, beating content that other guilds spend 5-6 nights a week to beat.   No one is going to make much progress into EH or really any EoF zones with a buncha zombies along for the ride.   I don't think your observation applies to any serious raiding guild. </blockquote><p>you've missed a few keywords in my post so I highlighted them in red/green, the nature of generalization like that is that it does not apply to everyone out there, it is also possible that what you refer to as smart & diligent is what I consider a basic routine of playing the class</p></blockquote>Fair enough, this being a derail anyway<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I just don't see alot of sheep raiding seriously, except perhaps guilds who just do KoS or T6.

[Gungo]

<cite>Obadiah wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'd really like to see that developer post. I fail to see how this could possibly be conceived as immoral or unethical. If anything, to me it seems <b>generous</b>. The guild that killed the mob gets some coin worth more than the hardened mana, and some non-raiding player that might have a stack of plat with nothing to spend it on gets an item they would otherwise never see. Win-win. If the chests lasted longer from heroic instances I would love to see the same thing there. If a group I'm in hacks through Unrest and gets a monk chest piece drop at the end, I'll sign in my level 22 monk before I let it go to someone's deity altar or transmuting board. If no one in the group has any applicable alts, well, I guess I'd rather find someone else that can use the item then just burn it. Go ahead, call me a commie. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote><p>There was a thread called "repair costs" where the discussion got derailed into selling of no trade loot. Moorgard posted that it was not against the game rules to sell no trade loot and the decision was decided that it was better to leave access so people can reenter a zone with thier guild in case of link deaths or whatever. The intention was not to sell no trade loot and although it is not against the game rules to do so, he personally thought guilds who participated in such actions were "Lame". (HISTORY LESSSON- when eq2 first came out NO ONE could enter an instance after you zoned in. This was the cause of MUCH complaints as people got locked out of zones, LD, were late, replacements etc. This one change made no trade loot from being EARNED to being bought) With the forum changes the search function is non exsistant and i couldn't quickly find the post under moorgards verbose post history. But i still have the PM where a moderator told me to stop qouting this passage and calling guilds who sell no trade loot "lame" and unethical. </p><p>I still hold that view. Becuase while the eq2 rules say there are no "camps" in eq2 and named are up for grabs. I still think people who kill steal named are "lame" and unethical. No trade tagged items are generally more powerful items due to the no trade tag and rarity. These items should be earned, buying plat is NOT earning it. People circumvent the games rules by selling no trade loot are "lame". The funny thing is the people the sell no trade loot think the same way. IF you had two people app to your guild one a plat farming soloer who bought full fabled and one who raided for thier fabled which would you considrer "LAME"? Which do you think EARNED thier fabled? Raid guilds like to think thier better then the average soloer. Well if you don't consider the soloer in plat-farmed bought no trade fabled "lame", then in fact you agree its not what guild a person is in but what items he posess that makes that person "earned" thier loot And you now beleive that a raider is no more skilled or better a player then a plat farmer. </p>

[FightGame]

We're all entitled to our own opinion on what we think is right or wrong.  But when talking about the FACTS in relation to this, IT IS NOT WRONG PER SOE.  They could have made it so that it would have never happened, and they can stop it at any time.  They've said, in their own words, that they don't think it's a great thing to do, but obviously feel it's not a big enough thing to warrant changing it.  They could make it so that only people in the group/raid can loot the chest.  No sense in argueing about it, because it will accomplish absolutely nothing and even if we all think it's wrong, it's still going to happen as long as sony allows it.

[Gungo]

<cite>FightGame wrote:</cite><blockquote>We're all entitled to our own opinion on what we think is right or wrong.  But when talking about the FACTS in relation to this, IT IS NOT WRONG PER SOE.  They could have made it so that it would have never happened, and they can stop it at any time.  They've said, in their own words, that they don't think it's a great thing to do, but obviously feel it's not a big enough thing to warrant changing it.  They could make it so that only people in the group/raid can loot the chest.  No sense in argueing about it, because it will accomplish absolutely nothing and even if we all think it's wrong, it's still going to happen as long as sony allows it.</blockquote> They did SOE made the game initially so that yoy could NOT zone into an instance after it had begun, and hence no trade loot was earned. People complained about LD's and lack of replacing people in zones And it was changed. But the point will always remain if selling no trade loot is acceptable why have the NO trade tag in the first place.

[Myk]

<p>Ok, well, I didn't expect to find quite so many supporters of this.  I expected people to attack my motives, put words in my mouth, and use extreme rhetorical questions to attack my arguments.  I am a bit surprised, though, that very few people took on my actual arguments and spelled out specifically why they disagree with me.  Let me review some of what has been said as counterarguments:</p><p> 1)  SOE has done nothing about it, so it's ok and working as intended.  </p><p> Since you are a visitor and poster on this board, there are many, many issues that SOE never addressed or did not address in a timely matter.  This ranges from class balancing to misleading spell descriptions to botters, etc., etc.</p><p> 2)  There is no rule spelled out specifically disallowing the practice.</p><p> There is a differences between cheating (breaking a written rule), exploiting a game mechanic (which I feel this issue is), and doing things that are unethical (not technically breaking a rule or exploiting) that most players find distateful like named stealing, node stealing, etc.   IMO, the designers made some loot No-Trade for a reason and auctioning it  falls into the 2nd or 3rd category.  </p><p>3)  Since it is possible to do it, it must be ok</p><p> Again, just because one <i>can</i> do something does not make it right.  And as Gungo pointed out, it used to be impossible to zone in anyone into a raid instance after it started, but LD issues convinced devs to change this mechanism.  This further supports my argument that No-trade loot was only intended for those in the raid but this mechanism was changed to address a more serious issue (the raid losing members due to zone crashes, PC crashes, or connection issues).  Now, what was intended to solve this problem has been over-exploited.</p><p>4)  It's a win-win situation</p><p> Yes, both parties in the transaction benefit, but how about the integrity of the game? </p><p><b>Kenazeer</b> got me to see another possibility when he stated the following:</p><p><i>I think your main confusion here is that your are taking a restriction upon movement as an intended restriction upon sale. "No Trade" simply means just that; once it is in your inventory it is yours forever. In that sense, there is a secondary restriction upon the item entering the market, but there is nothing at all to keep one from selling looting rights.</i> </p><p>I see your point here, but I still feel that the main reason items are flagged as no-trade is so they do not enter the general marketplace whether it be on the broker indefinately or on the open market for 10 minutes.  Although I appreciate the argument (the best one, IMO) and see this as a valid possibility, I think it's more likely that the designers intended that no-trade loot not be made available to the general population.  Let's not forget that public, server-wide chat channels were not in place (unless someone created one themsleves and publicised it) until one year after the game was released (level chat channels came out in Nov. 2005), so there was no uniform mechanism to effectively communicate "live" to the player base that something was for sale.  I am pretty sure No-trade loot preceded these public chat channels.</p><p>Anyway, since almost nobody here seems to want to take on my arguments in an honest way, I am almost done with this subject but hope a dev stumbles upon it and considers it and maybe even replies to it.  I may post one more time (most of you I'm sure are happy to hear this), but before I leave for now, let me address what I think should be done about it.</p><p>Since I think it's ok for alts and guildmates to loot no-trade items for no cost or for DKP (and I stated why in a previous post), I think it would be good to make chests poof much faster than now.  This will minimize the amount of time an item can be auctioned and reduce the possibilty of someone getting to the zone in time.  If there are alts or guildies who can potentially use items, they can camp outside the zone or wait nearby.  I realize that there are some drawbacks to this (bidding may need to be sped up and if an add wipes the raid, the chest may poof before getting back to it), but I think it's an overall reasonable way to deal with what I believe is a problem.  How about a 6 minute poof in raid zones and a 3 minute poof in heroic zones?</p>

[Wes]

<cite>Mykin wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Since I think it's ok for alts and guildmates to loot no-trade items for no cost or for DKP (and I stated why in a previous post), I think it would be good to make chests poof much faster than now.  This will minimize the amount of time an item can be auctioned and reduce the possibilty of someone getting to the zone in time.  If there are alts or guildies who can potentially use items, they can camp outside the zone or wait nearby.  I realize that there are some drawbacks to this (bidding may need to be sped up and if an add wipes the raid, the chest may poof before getting back to it), but I think it's an overall reasonable way to deal with what I believe is a problem.  How about a 6 minute poof in raid zones and a 3 minute poof in heroic zones?</p></blockquote><p> I personally don't ever see that short of a time-frame working, or ever being put into the game.  Thats simply not even close to enough time sometimes, especially when it comes to a raid force of 24 ppl possibly bidding.  Think about it...</p><p>X item drops, raid leader has to find the price of said item, once he/she found the price, it must be bid out.  Most guilds do a "2nd call" and "Last call" to bid on items.  THEN, if noone bids, it's bid out to alts.  Rinse and repeat first process.  Once all that bidding is finally done, person with the alt camps out, then logs the alt in, waits for invite, zones in (assuming their right outside zone, which usually is not the case), then is looted the item....This will take over 6 minutes...sometimes well over 6 minutes.  The time-frame provided for chests is just fine, and is "working as intended" <--j/k there <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  </p><p>I just don't see them changing this anytime in the near future...or ever even.</p>

[Myk]

<p>Right, I'm not a raid leader nor do I administer the bids, so my timeframe was just something I threw out there.  My main point is that reducing the timers on chests could greatly help mitigate (not completely solve) the problem.  If the devs agree with my arguments (a healthy presumption) and saw some merit in my solution, I'd let them determine the actual timers.  </p><p>Btw, what are the timers on chests currently?</p>

[Gungo]

<p>Actually the chest timers were extended also. The master chest and legendary chest decay time was increased to prevent rotting chests. </p><p>This point is simple. To answer the original question is it right to sell no trade loot. NO Although it is not an exploit and the developers have no intention of restricting the sale of no trade loot. This idealogy is on par with kill stealing. While selling no trade loot rights is NOT an exploit i will, like a developer has posted prior consider guilds who condone such practices as "Lame" and unethical.</p>

[Arthik]

Personally, I see nothing wrong with it. Not everyone can raid. The raid guild did the work; they got to the named and killed it. No one stole anything, so since they did the work, I feel they have the right to decide what to do with the loot.

[Choombatta]

<cite>Mykin wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Let's not forget that public, server-wide chat channels were not in place (unless someone created one themsleves and publicised it) until one year after the game was released (level chat channels came out in Nov. 2005), so there was no uniform mechanism to effectively communicate "live" to the player base that something was for sale.  I am pretty sure No-trade loot preceded these public chat channels.</p></blockquote> Hasn't the "Auction" channel been in game since release?

[sah]

<cite>Mykin wrote:</cite><blockquote><p> 1)  SOE has done nothing about it, so it's ok and working as intended.  </p><p> Since you are a visitor and poster on this board, there are many, many issues that SOE never addressed or did not address in a timely matter.  This ranges from class balancing to misleading spell descriptions to botters, etc., etc.</p></blockquote><p>How does this compare to class balancing or botters or any of that?  The code to stop this is literally already in the game!  It'd take a programmer maybe 5 minutes to copy and paste the code to stop this where as class balancing is virtually impossible, misleading spell descriptions requires someone to go through every single spell in the game, and botters is also almost impossible to stop.</p><p>Also, since you asked, timers on metal chest is 15 minutes before anyone can loot it and then 2 more minutes til it rots.  And I'm pretty sure that at some point within the past year, the time was actually increased.</p><p>This is definitely not an exploit.  People who exploit get banned.  SOE knows very well who the people are who are selling these loots because they routinely get questioned in anti-farming money tracking operations.  Not only that, threads about exploits on the official forums get removed very very quickly and the person who started the thread gets a warning.</p>

[Myk]

<cite>Choombatta wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mykin wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Let's not forget that public, server-wide chat channels were not in place (unless someone created one themsleves and publicised it) until one year after the game was released (level chat channels came out in Nov. 2005), so there was no uniform mechanism to effectively communicate "live" to the player base that something was for sale.  I am pretty sure No-trade loot preceded these public chat channels.</p></blockquote> Hasn't the "Auction" channel been in game since release?</blockquote><p>Technically, I believe so, but it was not serverwide.  I'm almost positive that it was restricted to Qeynos and Freeport toons and predated the fence (my memory is a bit fuzzy, so don't hold me to this).  The only serverwide channels were ones that someone created themselves.  I know this because I created an "LFG" channel to create a mechanism for finding groups more easily as no pre-made serverwide channel existed at the time.  Most people I knew turned off the auction channel anyway.  Communicating across the server used to be very difficult before the level chat channels came into existence.</p>

[Kenazeer]

<p>So what is the difference between selling looting rights and having someone tag along in the raid. Hell, is there a mob in the game that cannot be killed by 23 people actually doing the fighting? Does it matter if the tagalong casts one spell...two...three...fifty? It's all semantics. The problem people seem to have is the degree to which others "earn" the loot they are getting. This concept of having to pass some threshhold where loot earned is "legitimate" is so [Removed for Content] subjective as to be impossible to judge.</p><p>Say there is a guild that raids but is not hardcore. Say they have a person who does nothing but craft for the guild, they are a crafting fiend with multiple high level crafters, and everything they do for other guild members is done at cost. Say this person does adventure, but is not part of the raid force. Say a piece of loot drops that no one in the regular raid force needs. Is giving that piece of loot as a "reward" to the crafters adventure toon wrong? </p><p>Imagine this same circumstance, except that the person is merely friends with everyone in the guild, and not guilded. Is giving that person a piece of "reward" loot wrong?</p><p>In both of those cases I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. Why? Because the GUILD has earned the loot, not the individual. The guild can use the loot in whatever way they see fit in furthering the needs of the guild.</p><p>The continuum seems to be hard core raider, part time raider, seldom raider, tagalong who helps, tagalong who doesn't, someone who isn't even there. You can probably make a case for anyone from part time on down as to not "earning" loot, but the point is not that any individual earns it, the GUILD earns it.</p>

[Choombatta]

<p>Point being, there has been a way to "mass auction" items since the game was released.</p><p>All adding level chat channels did was give those wishing to sell loot another channel to spam in.</p><p>We are of course not even considering just auctioning in :</p><p>/ooc or /shout (everyone in your current zone sees it)</p><p>Also, the auction channel being reserved to just those from your starting city is still reaching roughly 50% of the server at a time, and again, this was at release.</p><p>I am curious though.......</p><p>Is it the selling of loot rights that you feel is immoral, or is it players getting loot from a MOB they did not take down themselves?</p><p>On one hand, if it is just the selling of loot rights, do you find it immoral if the same said loot was given away freely?</p><p>If it is the MOB, is it still immoral to sell loot to a player that HAS taken the mob down before, just not the paticular time the item in question dropped?</p>

[Myk]

<p>Kenazeer,</p><p> If you looked at my numerous posts, you'll be able to decipher where I draw the distinction.  IMO, the devs had the original intent to only have people in a given raid party be able to loot items flagged as No-Trade (reagardless of their involvement in the raid).  Since problems arose regarding crashes and possibly to allow replacements in a raid, they allowed others to zone in to a given instance after it had started.  Now, I am not so rigid as to not allow people with alts and other guildmembers come in and loot because they presumably contributed to the advancement and progression of the guild.  Again, people seem to totally ignore the fact that I'm talking about No-Trade loot and I have had only one person make an honest attempt at addressing it.  I have no issue with guilds selling tradeable loot like masters because those items are not as unique to acquire as no-trade items (ie, masters drop off everything including trash mobs in outdoor zones).  So, the main distinction is the fact that No-Trade items are entering the general marketplace when it is obvious to me that this was not the intent of the devs, period.  There are other issues surrounding this that make me opposed to the practice, but to answer the question, that is the distinction.</p><p>I have taken a lot of time to address the issue, address what some might consider inconsistencies with my arguments, answer people's questions, yet most people do not extend the same courtesy.  Rather, people have been throwing out rhetorical questions that mischaracterize my position and fail to answer the few direct questions I have posed.  So, unless someone offers up an honest and fair question that I haven't already addressed, you can re-read my prvious posts which details my reasoning.  I have written quite a bit on the subject, so people can pretty easily pick out a line or passage and start quibbling, but I have no interest in enaging in an argument.  An honest and thoughtful discussion I'll engage in, though.</p>

[Kenazeer]

<p>In my mind it doesn't matter whether the loot is tradable or not. Here is where I come down:</p><p>Guilds earn raid loot, players don't.</p><p>The guild decides whether an action helps or hinders it.</p><p>When a players exertion of effort, current or prior, and in <b>whatever</b> form it may be, helps a guild, the guild has a right to reward that person as they see fit.</p><p>There is nothing either against the rules, or unethical, about selling no drop loot in my opinion.</p>

[MadLordOfMilk]

As far as armor sets go... Depends on what you find worse - the selling, or the ridiculous amount of time it takes to get your character's ONE fabled armor set? At least WoW has multiple "tiers" of sets and not just one set that takes months of constant farming to get 0-3 pieces of.... or the fact that if you raid 3-4 days a week, realistically, each person will get maybe one item every week or two. Or what about non-raid no-trade loot? OK, class armor sets - 1 in 12 chance that it'll be your set that drops. Odds are, two weeks is the shortest you can get the no-trade pieces: farming OOB, CoV, Unrest every single day all the way through (about 5hrs daily). Then there's spending the other 9hrs you're up in MM Catacombs, Kaladim, and MM Castle - which will also probably take about two weeks with three hours spent in each zone daily. Of course, you could buy the dungeon drops... if you're lucky enough to play an almost-dead class (Bard, Enchanter, etc) that STILL rarely has more than one to three pieces of their set on the broker at any one time. The raiding? Sure, fine, not everyone should have it. I agree with this. It's just asking a bit much of any one person. Hell, the items are amazing. The time investment needed and the # of set pieces that rot on raids? Sucks. The grouping legendary set? Err, it's been months that EoF's been out, and I have yet to see a SINGLE person wearing their full legendary set. Not one. The set is nice, but it's not "omgwtfbbqholycrap" awesome. But the root of ALL of these problems is the fact that loot drops are completely random. Think of how many instance runs you may have done with no-trade loot where stuff rots - at LEAST every other one, isn't it? Loot should really be restricted to the classes that are in the group/raid. SUMMARY: RNG = ridiculous amounts of farming to get an item that you need. Even worse is that almost all of the items anyone would even wear are no-trade. Hence, to realistically ever reach the point of getting 90% of the items you want, you'd have to buy auctioned no-trade gear, and even then it'd be tough, not to mention you'd have to come up with the money from somewhere.

[FightGame]

<cite>Mykin wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Now, I am not so rigid as to not allow people with alts and other guildmembers come in and loot because they presumably contributed to the advancement and progression of the guild. </p></blockquote><p> Ok, but won't someone handing over 50p contribute to the advancement of the guild?  The guild could buy some needed master spells for people, gear that is tradeable on the broker, some repair kits, etc.  Hell they could even buy some other needed no-trade loot in channel - hahah jk.   Personally, I think if they are going to change it, it should be changed so that NOBODY else, except those attending the raid can get it.  That includes alts and other guildies.  I don't see any difference, for example, between a guild giving their guilded provisioner that doesn't raid, some no-trade raid gear, or another guild who sells their no-trade gear for money, which in turn could be used to buy some food from a provisioner that they haven't recruited yet.  Either way, the guild is atleast getting something, out of the otherwise rotting chest.</p><p>Do I think people should raid to get their no-trade, raid obtained gear?  yes, but at the same time, there are people who devote alot of time doing other things in the game, making lots of plat with nothing to spend it on and may not have had the same opportunities to get into a good raiding guild.  And like I said before, it's not like people are getting full outfits like this, so it's not the same as having a fabled merchant.  They can occasionaly get lucky enough to be on at the right time and to have a load of plat to spend.  People who are buying items probably only have a peice or two.</p>

[RoXx]

Stop annoying people and let everyone do what they want. This is a game, a place where people can feel free and not bound by a sh*tload of tiresome rules....

[Ganlu]

Gungo@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote><cite>Obadiah wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'd really like to see that developer post. I fail to see how this could possibly be conceived as immoral or unethical. If anything, to me it seems <b>generous</b>. The guild that killed the mob gets some coin worth more than the hardened mana, and some non-raiding player that might have a stack of plat with nothing to spend it on gets an item they would otherwise never see. Win-win. If the chests lasted longer from heroic instances I would love to see the same thing there. If a group I'm in hacks through Unrest and gets a monk chest piece drop at the end, I'll sign in my level 22 monk before I let it go to someone's deity altar or transmuting board. If no one in the group has any applicable alts, well, I guess I'd rather find someone else that can use the item then just burn it. Go ahead, call me a commie. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote><p>There was a thread called "repair costs" where the discussion got derailed into selling of no trade loot. Moorgard posted that it was not against the game rules to sell no trade loot and the decision was decided that it was better to leave access so people can reenter a zone with thier guild in case of link deaths or whatever. The intention was not to sell no trade loot and although it is not against the game rules to do so, he personally thought guilds who participated in such actions were "Lame". (HISTORY LESSSON- when eq2 first came out NO ONE could enter an instance after you zoned in. This was the cause of MUCH complaints as people got locked out of zones, LD, were late, replacements etc. This one change made no trade loot from being EARNED to being bought) With the forum changes the search function is non exsistant and i couldn't quickly find the post under moorgards verbose post history. But i still have the PM where a moderator told me to stop qouting this passage and calling guilds who sell no trade loot "lame" and unethical. </p><p>I still hold that view. Becuase while the eq2 rules say there are no "camps" in eq2 and named are up for grabs. I still think people who kill steal named are "lame" and unethical. No trade tagged items are generally more powerful items due to the no trade tag and rarity. These items should be earned, buying plat is NOT earning it. People circumvent the games rules by selling no trade loot are "lame". The funny thing is the people the sell no trade loot think the same way. IF you had two people app to your guild one a plat farming soloer who bought full fabled and one who raided for thier fabled which would you considrer "LAME"? Which do you think EARNED thier fabled? Raid guilds like to think thier better then the average soloer. Well if you don't consider the soloer in plat-farmed bought no trade fabled "lame", then in fact you agree its not what guild a person is in but what items he posess that makes that person "earned" thier loot And you now beleive that a raider is no more skilled or better a player then a plat farmer. </p></blockquote>Why do you keep implying that people who would buy no-trade items are buying their plat too?  You need to get off your high horse about how much "better" you are than a non-raider.  When people argue like this against it, it smacks of raidier elitism; people who hate to others who don't raid get items similar to theirs.  Look - a raider is NOT more inherently skilled than any solo player, there are plenty of raiders who just follow along and hit buttons as the raid leader commands, and there are plenty of idiotic soloers. I still don't get where you're drawing the comparison between this and stealing named - stealing a named from a group that worked toward it is negatively affecting that group - how is it negatively affecting a raid for them to get some extra cash that they wouldn't have?

[Gungo]

<cite>Kenazeer wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>In my mind it doesn't matter whether the loot is tradable or not. Here is where I come down:</p><p>Guilds earn raid loot, players don't.</p><p>The guild decides whether an action helps or hinders it.</p><p>When a players exertion of effort, current or prior, and in <b>whatever</b> form it may be, helps a guild, the guild has a right to reward that person as they see fit.</p><p>There is nothing either against the rules, or unethical, about selling no drop loot in my opinion.</p></blockquote><p> Then what is the point of the no-trade flag? either the no-trade flag serves no purpose and should go away OR The no-trade flag was ment for people to EARN thier loot and not broker them.</p><p>Its one or the other. The point being a dev already said no trade loot was not ment to be sold but it is not against the games current rules but he personally felt guilds who condone such actions are "lame". </p><p>Personally i think the devs should only allow a chest to be looted by the raid when it is opened. Locking the raid until the loot is assigned. OR just completely remove the NO TRADE tag as it effectively serves no purpose except to punish guilds who follow the rules. </p>

[Choombatta]

<p>I think NO-TRADE tags should have been taken away once they added the ATTUNABLE tags, as I think they both serve the original purpose.</p><p>Once someone loots it, it is permanently assigned to that person and removed from the economy.</p>

[HippyKnight]

<p>Personally I think the no-trade tag is applied to loot to make the content of the game last longer. For example the legendary set cuffs drop in valdoons.. I did the zone 15 times maybe in the first couple of months of eof, until I got the cuffs,  and since then I haven't been back more than twice I think. Simply because there is no longer anything that drops in there that is of any value for me any more. </p><p>If the cuffs were tradeable (like the shoulders for example) then chances are most people would just end up buying them from the broker. (I bought the shoulders and have only spent about 5 trips in total to upper mmc). So if they were tradeable they would have to significantly reduce the drop rates and therefore drive up the price of the tradeable cuffs for people to still do valdoons 15 times for the possibility of reward. </p><p>The same thing applies to fabled stuff as far as im concerned. </p><p>Firstly the items that are auctioned are usually not that good, or they would have been snapped up by people in the raid or their guild. So even if it is circumventing the no-trade restriction you still have to raid to get the better bits of armour etc.</p><p>Secondly it is only a problem if people decide there is no longer any point raiding Emerald Halls for example, simply because they have purchased the looting rights to all the goodies that drop in there and the zone no longer offers any reward for raiding it. This is in no way the case.. at least not on my server. The selling of looting rights would have to be _far_ more widespread than it is currently before this became a problem. </p>

[Myk]

<p>I think there are some good ideas out there now to address the problem (assuming SOE agrees that it's a problem).  The solutions fall into 2 camps, one to solve the problem completely and one to mitigate the problem:</p><p> 1)  Remove the No-Trade tag altogther (solved but to the detriment of game progression and makes the game more trivial)</p><p>2)  Lock the zone while a chest is open like locking an encounter (solved but to the detriment of alts/friends/guildies)</p><p>3)  Creating a rule against the practice which can be policed quite easily as auctions occur on public channels and are easy to report (solved)</p><p>4)  Reduce the timers on chests (mitigated by making it more difficult to auction)</p><p>5)  Item drops are only for classes in the party (mitigated but can still end up with duplicate items which will lead to auctioning)</p><p>6)  A combination of a few of the above</p>

[Gungo]

<cite>Ganluan wrote:</cite><blockquote>Gungo@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote><cite>Obadiah wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'd really like to see that developer post. I fail to see how this could possibly be conceived as immoral or unethical. If anything, to me it seems <b>generous</b>. The guild that killed the mob gets some coin worth more than the hardened mana, and some non-raiding player that might have a stack of plat with nothing to spend it on gets an item they would otherwise never see. Win-win. If the chests lasted longer from heroic instances I would love to see the same thing there. If a group I'm in hacks through Unrest and gets a monk chest piece drop at the end, I'll sign in my level 22 monk before I let it go to someone's deity altar or transmuting board. If no one in the group has any applicable alts, well, I guess I'd rather find someone else that can use the item then just burn it. Go ahead, call me a commie. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote><p>There was a thread called "repair costs" where the discussion got derailed into selling of no trade loot. Moorgard posted that it was not against the game rules to sell no trade loot and the decision was decided that it was better to leave access so people can reenter a zone with thier guild in case of link deaths or whatever. The intention was not to sell no trade loot and although it is not against the game rules to do so, he personally thought guilds who participated in such actions were "Lame". (HISTORY LESSSON- when eq2 first came out NO ONE could enter an instance after you zoned in. This was the cause of MUCH complaints as people got locked out of zones, LD, were late, replacements etc. This one change made no trade loot from being EARNED to being bought) With the forum changes the search function is non exsistant and i couldn't quickly find the post under moorgards verbose post history. But i still have the PM where a moderator told me to stop qouting this passage and calling guilds who sell no trade loot "lame" and unethical. </p><p>I still hold that view. Becuase while the eq2 rules say there are no "camps" in eq2 and named are up for grabs. I still think people who kill steal named are "lame" and unethical. No trade tagged items are generally more powerful items due to the no trade tag and rarity. These items should be earned, buying plat is NOT earning it. People circumvent the games rules by selling no trade loot are "lame". The funny thing is the people the sell no trade loot think the same way. IF you had two people app to your guild one a plat farming soloer who bought full fabled and one who raided for thier fabled which would you considrer "LAME"? Which do you think EARNED thier fabled? Raid guilds like to think thier better then the average soloer. Well if you don't consider the soloer in plat-farmed bought no trade fabled "lame", then in fact you agree its not what guild a person is in but what items he posess that makes that person "earned" thier loot And you now beleive that a raider is no more skilled or better a player then a plat farmer. </p></blockquote>Why do you keep implying that people who would buy no-trade items are buying their plat too?  You need to get off your high horse about how much "better" you are than a non-raider.  When people argue like this against it, it smacks of raidier elitism; people who hate to others who don't raid get items similar to theirs.  Look - a raider is NOT more inherently skilled than any solo player, there are plenty of raiders who just follow along and hit buttons as the raid leader commands, and there are plenty of idiotic soloers. I still don't get where you're drawing the comparison between this and stealing named - stealing a named from a group that worked toward it is negatively affecting that group - how is it negatively affecting a raid for them to get some extra cash that they wouldn't have? </blockquote><p>Actually i was comparing a person who "BUYS" fabled items to plat farmer who farms greens, or a person who plays the market or yes a person who buys plat. In no sense did they ever EARN that loot. They bought it and most guilds would never recruit that person because the fabled is a poor indicator of that persons skill. The similarity of kill stealing and selling no trade is simple. They are both not condoned and are both offically not breaking the rules. A person Kill stealing a named is not breaking the rules, but they still take something another group/player was working towards. A person who sells loot is not breaking the rules, but is circumventing restrictions to benefit from the sale of an item that was never ment to be sold. It ends up flooding the market and undervaluing other items such as crafted items. When obviously no trade was ment to restirct the sale of said items. Obviously no trade was ment to stop these items from entering the market place. Tiers of loot are thier and no trade loot is NOT intended to be sold. Its really that simple. Why do you think an item is tagged no-trade in the first place? What is the purpose of the notrade tag? You keep running around that issue saying but it doesn't hurt anyone. While it may seem there is no individul who is getting hurt. The market is and the crafters and NON raiders. Do get hurt. </p><p>Imho the group invite function should be disabled while a chest is open and being decided. A chest should also ROT once the timer is up for that raid to assign loot. This will mean no Alt will get loot unless they were there BEFORE the chest is opened.  This topic is very simple to answer, because no one can deny the fact that no trade was never ment to be sold. All people keep saying is its ok because it benefits the raid. Which really doesn't justify doing something wrong in the first place. Hence peopel who sell no trade loot are "lame" and unethical.</p>

[Catsy]

Good grief. So, as near as I can tell there are a handful of arguments against auctioning no-trade loot. They boil down to: 1. This is an exploit/is against the EULA. 2. The devs did not intend this to be possible, and one of them said not-nice things about guilds that do it. 3. People who buy fabled no-trade items are like people who buy plat, or people who steal named. 4. These items are flagged no-trade for a reason and shouldn't be looted by people who didn't contribute to the kill. My considered responses to these arguments: 1. An exploit is the use of a bug in game mechanics to gain an advantage. The EULA explicitly prohibits the use of exploits. The mechanics of exquisite chest timers, raid zone entrance requirements and lockouts, leader-only loot assignment, and the no-trade flag are not bugged, and are working as designed. It is no more an exploit than using feign death to bypass trash mobs, or pet pulling to get around social agro, is an exploit--it is a creative use of existing game mechanics to overcome an obstacle. The EULA is curiously silent on that point. 2. What one dev said is frankly irrelevant, both to the question of whether it is a violation of the EULA  and to the ethics of auctioning fabled loot. It's his opinion and he is entitled to it. But we're not discussing Con Law here, and the "original intent" of any given developer is germane only to the extent that their intent expresses itself in how the game is coded. If they consider this an exploit and say so, then I'll take that seriously and refrain from auctioning or buying looting rights until they fix the exploit. If they just think it's "lame", then I thank them for their opinion and reserve the right to disagree. 3. <strike>You are profoundly silly and should abstain from writing in public.</strike> I would think this argument would discredit itself with a moment's thought, but just in case it needs explaining: Buying plat is an exchange of real-world goods for in-game goods, which is a violation of the EULA. Buying looting rights is an exhchange of in-game coin for in-game goods, which is what makes the game economy possible. Equating the two is self-evidently absurd. Equally absurd is the comparison with stealing named/quest mobs--the first of which is a breach of commonly-accepted etiquette, the second of which is a violation of the EULA, and both of which have the unique quality of taking something away from another player, a quality distinctly lacking from the consensual exchange of in-game coin for in-game goods. The only thing they have in common is that you disapprove of them. Good for you. Have a cookie. 4. Chirannite Threat Totems are flagged no-trade. If I need them to complete Bark Like a Gnoll, and I come across a gnoll carcass that hasn't rotted but on which looting rights have expired, am I violating the EULA if I loot the no-trade language quest item from it? Am I unethical for doing so? What if I see a group killing gnolls, and ask them if they can invite me long enough to loot any Threat Totems they found? What if I offer them 1g for looting rights to their Threat Totems? What if they go on the 10-19 channel offering looting rights to a whole pile of them? Please note that these are rhetorical questions to illustrate the futility of treating the no-trade flag as some kind of definitive absolute; I'm not actually interested in hearing from anyone silly enough to actually try to answer "yes" to any of them. The fact is that the no-trade flag--and I realize that this may come as a shock to those of you who have only read and understood the "no" part--governs one and only one aspect of game functionality: whether or not the item can be traded. It has no bearing on who can loot it. There are no rules, whether in the game or the EULA, prohibiting the free exchange of in-game coin for in-game goods or services that do not otherwise violate the EULA. Feel free to disapprove all you like. Your scowling from the corner is duly noted. With a little luck, you may actually manage to convince more than ten people to join your club before EQ3 is released. But please don't make the mistake of conflating your opinions with the rules of the game--or worse, of misrepresenting the rules of the game in order to bolster a weak argument.

[Espyderman]

Liluk@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>It's no different then bringing in an alt to loot something if nobody on the raid can use it.  Or bringing in another guild member that wasn't in the 24 man raid. </blockquote><p> I HATE when people say "hey can i log my swash and take that since we have none here".....wait 25 minutes.......play some more......."hey can i log my wizard".....bah /leavegroup /lfg</p><p> Seriously, i dont got 10 hours a day to play and waiting around for people to login and out to get gear is just....well.....greedy and selfish. Sure you benefit from the drop, but we all sit around while you do so.</p><p>How about ACHiEVING it for yourself. This attitudes breeds farming IMO. Guilds who do this should be considered farmers as well. By ACHIEVING i mean doing it with your character, and not having to relog all the time. What do people play games for anyways nowadays? The challenge? or instant gratification? You want instant gratification go meet palmalla and handrietta.</p>

[Kaleyen]

<cite>Espyderman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Liluk@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>It's no different then bringing in an alt to loot something if nobody on the raid can use it.  Or bringing in another guild member that wasn't in the 24 man raid. </blockquote><p> I HATE when people say "hey can i log my swash and take that since we have none here".....wait 25 minutes.......play some more......."hey can i log my wizard".....bah /leavegroup /lfg</p><p> Seriously, i dont got 10 hours a day to play and waiting around for people to login and out to get gear is just....well.....greedy and selfish. Sure you benefit from the drop, but we all sit around while you do so.</p><p>How about ACHiEVING it for yourself. This attitudes breeds farming IMO. Guilds who do this should be considered farmers as well. By ACHIEVING i mean doing it with your character, and not having to relog all the time. What do people play games for anyways nowadays? The challenge? or instant gratification? You want instant gratification go meet palmalla and handrietta.</p></blockquote>Maybe we're thinking about different things here, but if my guild clears out MMIS and gets a piece or two of fabled EoF set for a class that isn't on the raid but is online we're going to get them in there to loot it.  Any guild that would have a piece of the EoF fabled rot because they don't want to get that extra person into the zone to loot is a guild I wouldn't want to be apart of. "Oh yeah, a piece of your EoF fabled set dropped but we don't want to spend the little extra effort to get you in here so we're going to transmute it". /deguild

[sah]

<cite>Mykin wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I think there are some good ideas out there now to address the problem (assuming SOE agrees that it's a problem).  The solutions fall into 2 camps, one to solve the problem completely and one to mitigate the problem:</p><p> 1)  Remove the No-Trade tag altogther (solved but to the detriment of game progression and makes the game more trivial)</p><p>2)  Lock the zone while a chest is open like locking an encounter (solved but to the detriment of alts/friends/guildies)</p><p>3)  Creating a rule against the practice which can be policed quite easily as auctions occur on public channels and are easy to report (solved)</p><p>4)  Reduce the timers on chests (mitigated by making it more difficult to auction)</p><p>5)  Item drops are only for classes in the party (mitigated but can still end up with duplicate items which will lead to auctioning)</p><p>6)  A combination of a few of the above</p></blockquote><p> I really don't understand the point of this thread.  Selling No-Trade loot is not an exploit.  If they didn't want people selling no-trade loot they could have fixed it a long time ago.  As far as #4, they've actually increased timers on chests!  Why would they reduce the timers now?  And as far as #3, SOE already knows who is selling loot.  Guild leaders of guilds who this often are sometimes questioned by GM's about the insane amounts of plat they're earning in short time periods.  Even if some devs think that it's immoral, it's not against the rules and the system isn't broken.</p>

[thebunny]

<p>First off, the only people who know for certain whether something is or is not an exploit is a dev.  The rest of us are just speculating.</p><p>That being said, what exactly do you think the exploit is?  Is it that someone other than a member of the group that killed the mob is able to loot a no trade item from a chest?  If that's the case, how is it not an exploit to zone in alts to loot no trade items?  They certainly weren't present when the mob was killed.  Is it that someone is able to buy an item that is no trade and loot it from a chest?  How is that any more of an "exploit" than the first case?</p><p>Unless a dev pops up and says that the ability for someone outside the group/raid to loot a no trade item is considered a bug, my opinion is that there is no exploit.  No trade means exactly that - once the item belongs to a player, it cannot be traded to another player.  An item sitting in a chest does not belong to any player yet, so in my opinion selling looting rights to that item is not an exploit because that is the way the game is designed (i.e. no bugs are being exploited).  Now if you knew of some bug that allowed you to trade a no trade item to another player, and you actually used that, then that would be an exploit.</p><p>But like I said before, the devs are the only ones who can define what is and is not an exploit.  If they were to decide that this is indeed an exploit, I would hope they would change it so that only those members of the group/raid that were involved in the kill are able to loot the chest.  It would be pretty stupid to me if the difference between whether something is or is not an exploit is whether plat or dkp is used to purchase that item.</p><p>Now if the question is merely whether it is ethical or not, that's purely a matter of opinion.  I personally agree with what someone earlier in the thread said - the group/raid that killed the mob has earned the right to decide what they want to do with the loot.  I couldn't care less what they do with it, because to me, good gear does not turn a bad player into a great player.  I've found life is much happier when you don't worry about what other people do. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Kenazeer]

Gungo@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote><cite>Kenazeer wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>In my mind it doesn't matter whether the loot is tradable or not. Here is where I come down:</p><p>Guilds earn raid loot, players don't.</p><p>The guild decides whether an action helps or hinders it.</p><p>When a players exertion of effort, current or prior, and in <b>whatever</b> form it may be, helps a guild, the guild has a right to reward that person as they see fit.</p><p>There is nothing either against the rules, or unethical, about selling no drop loot in my opinion.</p></blockquote><p> Then what is the point of the no-trade flag? either the no-trade flag serves no purpose and should go away OR The no-trade flag was ment for people to EARN thier loot and not broker them.</p><p>Its one or the other. The point being a dev already said no trade loot was not ment to be sold but it is not against the games current rules but he personally felt guilds who condone such actions are "lame". </p><p>Personally i think the devs should only allow a chest to be looted by the raid when it is opened. Locking the raid until the loot is assigned. OR just completely remove the NO TRADE tag as it effectively serves no purpose except to punish guilds who follow the rules. </p></blockquote><p>I have already stated why I think they have it on there, and that is to limit the movement of the item, not prohibit who can loot it.</p><p>In YOUR opinion the no trade flag carries a specific meaning, and in light of that opinion the either/or you put forth is a valid question, but only in terms of your specific interpretation. IF the no trade serves as I suggest then it very well could serve its intended purpose. </p><p>A dev stated his personal opnion!! That is one person, and one who was not speaking on behalf of SOE. Please point to me some place where a person has spoken in an official capacity as a representative of SOE in regards to this matter and said SOE considers it lame. One dev stating an opinion does not an SOE consensus make. </p><p>Nice job by the way contradicting yourself there in the last paragraph and disparging guilds who do this. As you said just a few words earlier..."not against the rules," but then said "punish guilds who follow the rules." Exactly what "rules" are these other guilds not following that some are? </p>

[Kenazeer]

<cite>Mykin wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I think there are some good ideas out there now to address the problem (assuming SOE agrees that it's a problem).  The solutions fall into 2 camps, one to solve the problem completely and one to mitigate the problem:</p><p> 1)  Remove the No-Trade tag altogther (solved but to the detriment of game progression and makes the game more trivial)</p><p>2)  Lock the zone while a chest is open like locking an encounter (solved but to the detriment of alts/friends/guildies)</p><p>3)  Creating a rule against the practice which can be policed quite easily as auctions occur on public channels and are easy to report (solved)</p><p>4)  Reduce the timers on chests (mitigated by making it more difficult to auction)</p><p>5)  Item drops are only for classes in the party (mitigated but can still end up with duplicate items which will lead to auctioning)</p><p>6)  A combination of a few of the above</p></blockquote><p>Good Grief. There is no problem to solve besides your hurt sensibilities. SOE knows about the issue and has never acted. What do you think that says about the relative priority of the issue? Especially since number 3 takes what....20 minutes to write something up and post it.</p><p>If you think it is against the rules there is a simple way to find out. Petition said guild every time they auction an item for sale. One of two things is going to happen. You will either run into an GM who agrees with you, takes action on said guild, and then it will be sorted out as the appeals process unfolds. The second thing that will happen is you will not find a sympathetic GM and will get a warning placed on your account for repetitive petitioning. If that happens I would have to conclude that the concensus attitude is that it is not an exploit or in any way breaks the rules.</p>

[Kenazeer]

Liluk@Venekor wrote: <blockquote><cite>Espyderman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Liluk@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>It's no different then bringing in an alt to loot something if nobody on the raid can use it.  Or bringing in another guild member that wasn't in the 24 man raid. </blockquote><p> I HATE when people say "hey can i log my swash and take that since we have none here".....wait 25 minutes.......play some more......."hey can i log my wizard".....bah /leavegroup /lfg</p><p> Seriously, i dont got 10 hours a day to play and waiting around for people to login and out to get gear is just....well.....greedy and selfish. Sure you benefit from the drop, but we all sit around while you do so.</p><p>How about ACHiEVING it for yourself. This attitudes breeds farming IMO. Guilds who do this should be considered farmers as well. By ACHIEVING i mean doing it with your character, and not having to relog all the time. What do people play games for anyways nowadays? The challenge? or instant gratification? You want instant gratification go meet palmalla and handrietta.</p></blockquote>Maybe we're thinking about different things here, but if my guild clears out MMIS and gets a piece or two of fabled EoF set for a class that isn't on the raid but is online we're going to get them in there to loot it.  Any guild that would have a piece of the EoF fabled rot because they don't want to get that extra person into the zone to loot is a guild I wouldn't want to be apart of. "Oh yeah, a piece of your EoF fabled set dropped but we don't want to spend the little extra effort to get you in here so we're going to transmute it". /deguild </blockquote>Agreed. That extreme seems more like cutting off your nose to spite your face. Letting fabled gear rot or transmuting helps a guild more? Maybe it helps the egos of those who do loot it, but the guild?

[Kenazeer]

<p>Just out of curiousity I talleyed this up. For those keeping score at home, here is a summary of the individual posters on this issue. If you think I have you mis-typed please let me know.</p><p><b>Against</b>                       <b>No Expressed Opinion</b>                       <b>For/No Issue</b>   </p><p>Mykin                          Kocia                                                   Kenazeer</p><p>                                  Judist                                                    Liluk</p><p>                                  Sahet                                                    Geothe</p><p>Espyderman               Will                                                      Obadiah</p><p>                                   Caetrel                                                Wes02</p><p>                                   Rorion                                                  FightG ame</p><p>                                   Choombatta                                         Mareth</p><p>                                   MadLordOf Milk                                   BuiltToLast</p><p>                                   HippyKnight                                         Renvhoek</p><p>                                   Gungo                                                  SinIsLa w</p><p>                                    Ciarrai                                                Triste-Lune</p><p>                                                                                               Fr odex</p><p>                                                                                               Ganlua n</p><p>                                                                                               Ar thik</p><p>                                                                                               Ro xxer</p><p>                                                                                               Sotany avejin</p><p>                                                                                               TheBun ny</p><p>Looks to me like the issue is a non-starter.</p>

[Gungo]

Sotanyavejin@Guk wrote: <blockquote> 3. <strike>You are profoundly silly and should abstain from writing in public.</strike> I would think this argument would discredit itself with a moment's thought, but just in case it needs explaining: Buying plat is an exchange of real-world goods for in-game goods, which is a violation of the EULA. Buying looting rights is an exhchange of in-game coin for in-game goods, which is what makes the game economy possible. Equating the two is self-evidently absurd. Equally absurd is the comparison with stealing named/quest mobs--the first of which is a breach of commonly-accepted etiquette, <b>the second of which is a violation of the EULA,</b> and both of which have the unique quality of taking something away from another player, a quality distinctly lacking from the consensual exchange of in-game coin for in-game goods. The only thing they have in common is that you disapprove of them. Good for you. Have a cookie. </blockquote> Nice statement. Here is the problem with it. You are wrong. There are no camps in eq2. It is not against the Eula to kill steal a named. Your trying to justify a situation that circumvents game mechanics by claiming no one is hurt. But you turn a blind eye to the damage done to the market, to crafters, and the rest of the community. The common trait between both is that neither are agaisnt the EULA but both are a breach of commonly-accepted etiquette.

[Ganlu]

You must be pretty arrogant to believe that etiquette you subscribe to is "commonly-accepted". So really, where do you draw the line?  Is it OK for guilds to let an alt of a member come in to grab an item?  Is it OK for someone who came along from outside the guild to have their alt come in and grab the item?  What if you are in an open area and have a no-trade item drop for you that you already have?  Do you just let it rot, or let people in the zone know that first one up there can have it?  If a raid gives away no-trade fabled for free without selling it, is it OK then? I find it hilarious you equate buying plat to farming greens to playing the market.  You must really hate stock brokers too, OMG they buy low and sell stuff for more than they bought it for! OMG manipulating the market!  What makes you think you're so important that your raid earning some loot is any better than some group who hits up an instance trying to make some money?  Both are putting in time to get a reward, yet you paint farming (legit farming, not bot farming) as somehow inferior or even unethical. And again, if this was "circumventing game mechanics", the devs/GMs would stop it.  The game mechanics allow people to zone into an instance from outside a raid - even if they didn't, what if a guild tried the same "no-trade sale" from a contested that was outside an instance? I also fail to see how this damages "the community" in any way.

[Antryg Mistrose]

Wasn't no-trade introduced to reduce inflation?  (Or am I thinking about attuning). KoS and lower zones got multiple fabled items per raid, and  they were useable for more classes, or tradeable. EoF the raids have far fewer drops, and they are more restricted by class.  (Some would argue that they actually check which classes are in the raid, and its those missing that get the drops....) Hardly suprising that some guilds are selling looting rights. I find it a bit distasteful, similar to uber raiders asking to buy looting rights to Unrest.  But the 'harm' - hardly see that as important. As long as you got the platinum to buy the stuff without cheating, then so be it. Specific, personal case: I have no problem buying raid dropped items for my Shadowknight (SK hardly ever raids as I have more useful chars), so can't see how I can complain too much of people buying the item before it dropped. As another poster has already said - notrade looks to be used to extend the content, by restricting availability - nothing noble or admirable in SOE's attitude there.  Its a commercial decision, their's to make.  Which come to think of it, is my attitude to the guilds who do this.

[Gungo]

<cite>Kenazeer wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Just out of curiousity I talleyed this up. For those keeping score at home, here is a summary of the individual posters on this issue. If you think I have you mis-typed please let me know.</p><p><b>Against</b>                       <b>No Expressed Opinion</b>                       <b>For/No Issue</b>   </p><p>Mykin                          Kocia                                                   Kenazeer</p><p>Gungo                        Judist                                                    Liluk</p><p>Ciarrai                        Sahet                                                    Geothe</p><p>Espyderman               Will                                                      Obadiah</p><p>                                   Caetrel                                                Wes02</p><p>                                   Rorion                                                  FightG ame</p><p>                                   Choombatta                                         Mareth</p><p>                                   MadLordOf Milk                                   BuiltToLast</p><p>                                   HippyKnight                                         Renvhoek</p><p>                                                                                               SinIsL aw</p><p>                                                                                               Tr iste-Lune</p><p>                                                                                               Fr odex</p><p>                                                                                               Ganlua n</p><p>                                                                                               Ar thik</p><p>                                                                                               Ro xxer</p><p>                                                                                               Sotany avejin</p><p>                                                                                               TheBun ny</p><p>Looks to me like the issue is a non-starter.</p></blockquote><p> Actually i have no opinion. I was playing devil's advocate in this debate. While I know the intention was never ment for no trade to be sold. The game current mechanic changes neither foster or condemn this behavior. Its not against the rules since the current mechanics allow it. It is not an exploit. </p><p>Although i do feel people who buy no trade loot are lame. I feel it makes the game loose its value when people purchase thier way through it. Its like the person who purchases collections to level to from 1-40. They might as well add in a vending machine that exchanges plats for levels. itemization is a sense of progression and purchasing no trade items removes that progression. </p><p>I am not trying to convince anyone here they are exploiting, because they are not. I am simple agreeing with the OP that people who feel the need to buy (and to a degree sell no-trade items) are lame. and imho if you are buying your equipment w plat. You never earned it. </p>

[Kenazeer]

<p>Noted and changed Gungo.</p>

[Kegofbud]

I dont' care who thinks something is or isn't earned, the fact is, if the loot dropping was worthwhile to the people killing the mobs, they'd keep it. Since the loot drops are repetitive and are not helping them, they sell it to make something of nothing. Too many nights we clear zones to come up with nothing we can use. How many hardened manas can a guild really use when there is no new item to use them on? The problem in my opinion is on the development team for repetitive items and lack of useful drops. Get them to fix the RNG drop of set items and you won't see items auctioned nearly as often. Since the release of EOF, I have raided up to 6 nights a week and I have gotten exactly 5 pieces of gear from named drops that could be considered an upgrade on my main, only 2 are set pieces. My DKP is amassing at a record rate and I feel like I have nothing to look forward to every night. So yeah, go ahead and kill off my guild split share while you're at it.

[Catsy]

Gungo@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote>Sotanyavejin@Guk wrote: <blockquote> 3. <strike>You are profoundly silly and should abstain from writing in public.</strike> I would think this argument would discredit itself with a moment's thought, but just in case it needs explaining: Buying plat is an exchange of real-world goods for in-game goods, which is a violation of the EULA. Buying looting rights is an exhchange of in-game coin for in-game goods, which is what makes the game economy possible. Equating the two is self-evidently absurd. Equally absurd is the comparison with stealing named/quest mobs--the first of which is a breach of commonly-accepted etiquette, <b>the second of which is a violation of the EULA,</b> and both of which have the unique quality of taking something away from another player, a quality distinctly lacking from the consensual exchange of in-game coin for in-game goods. The only thing they have in common is that you disapprove of them. Good for you. Have a cookie. </blockquote> Nice statement. Here is the problem with it. You are wrong. There are no camps in eq2. It is not against the Eula to kill steal a named. Your trying to justify a situation that circumvents game mechanics by claiming no one is hurt. But you turn a blind eye to the damage done to the market, to crafters, and the rest of the community. The common trait between both is that neither are agaisnt the EULA but both are a breach of commonly-accepted etiquette. </blockquote> If you're going to tell me I'm wrong, at least pay enough attention to respond to what I actually wrote. I never said it was against the EULA to steal named mobs. I said it was a breach of etiquette. It /is/ a breach of the EULA to monopolize quest mobs to the detriment of players trying to do those quests. You even highlighted the sentence in question yourself, so I'm not sure why you're having trouble understanding the plain English written therein. The rest of your position consists of one question-begging argument-by-assertion after another. Selling looting rights does not circumvent any game mechanic. It takes advantage of correctly-coded, non-bugged game mechanics that exist: the ability for a group/raid leader to decide who to assign loot to. And... damage to the market? To crafters? To the rest of the community? These are pretty broad and serious accusations. Support them or retract them; make your choice. Surely if the economic harm is so grievous, it should be easy for you to provide some numbers and facts to prove or falsify your assertions. Because from where I'm standing, the selling of looting rights is a /part/ of the market. These items are a commodity like any other, one for which there is a demand. Players who have earned enough plat are able to exchange that coin for the items in question. This is a simple market transaction: explain, for the benefit of your audience, just how this damages the "market". I also fail to see any possible damage to crafters. Handcrafted and Mastercrafted items are already inferior to nearly any tradeable Legendary or Fabled item you can buy on the broker. No one is going to buy a Mastercrafted breastplate just because they can't buy looting rights to their Fabled class breastplate. Their target market is not the same, and they're simply not in competition with each other, in either quality level or in price point. To "the rest of the community"? More silliness, more vague argument by assertion without a shred of support behind it. You're picking these things out of thin air because they sound malevolent and persuasive without any serious thought as to whether or not they make sense, and hoping that people will read that and think, "gosh, that's awful what those looting rights auctioneers are doing to our market and community!" without thinking too it through. The problem is that rather than contributing anything useful to the debate, you're simply muddying the waters with meaningless pablum. Your final sentence is just as wrong on the facts as everything else you wrote in that post. Stealing named is a breach of commonly-accepted etiquette. You'll find people to agree and disagree with that, but most players will avoid pulling a mob that you're obviously camping, especially if you let them know that's what you're doing. It's just courtesy. Stealing quest mobs you don't need when another player does, as noted above, is in fact a breach of the game rules as well as common courtesy. Selling looting rights is neither a breach of game rules nor of any kind of "commonly-accepted" etiquette. I stand by what I said: the only thing it has in common with kill-stealing of any sort is that both are something of which you disapprove. I find your disapproval curiously unpersuasive and your breathless hysteria about the danger to the market and community unconvincing.

[Dakkon_10]

<b><i><span style="font-size: small; font-family: trebuchet ms,geneva">It's up to the players who are selling to decide whether it is right or wrong, nobody else. If it were against the rules SoE would say so, and have stopped it a long time ago. It's obviously not an intended way of going about trading items, but that doesn't matter. I have no problem with it. Honestly, I think it's better than selling the NON No-Trade fabled loot, because at least the time limit the sale has to be made under prevents price gouging/bid wars and items are more likely to sell for what they're worth or else become transmute fodder. It's also a good way for guilds to make money and adventurers who can't or don't raid to upgrade beyond legendary. I could see how elitests wouldn't agree with that, but who care about those F***s. The items are No-Trade, not No-Loot-By-Non-Raider. So yeah, it's up to the seller. They killed the mob, they got the loot, it's their's to decide what to do with. Be it transmute, loot, or sell, it shouldn't matter to anyone else.</span></i></b>

[Ciarr]

<p>not sure how I ended up as 'against', all what I said was that it is probably 'unintendent' feature, personally I don't care what happens to the loots in the end, it's just a game and I would buy something nice and no-trade in a heartbeat if the price was right...</p><p>the moment people start arguing if something like that is 'ethical', 'fair', 'deserved' etc I start to feel sorry for them... honestly... no offence, but 'get a life', do something meaningful, don't argue over something as silly as that</p><p>on the side note, the only purpose 'no-trade' really serves is to increase the longevity of the game content, basickly it forces you to do it over and over till you get what you want, otherwise places like Unrest you would do only 6 times (on average) and than trade what you got for what you really need</p><p>sometimes... I think that instead of having a splash screen with warnings at start SoE should have a red flashing text on the screen all the time saying '<span style="color: #ff0000">remember this is only a game</span>' <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Builttolast]

Choadley@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote>I dont' care who thinks something is or isn't earned, the fact is, if the loot dropping was worthwhile to the people killing the mobs, they'd keep it. Since the loot drops are repetitive and are not helping them, they sell it to make something of nothing. Too many nights we clear zones to come up with nothing we can use. How many hardened manas can a guild really use when there is no new item to use them on? The problem in my opinion is on the development team for repetitive items and lack of useful drops. Get them to fix the RNG drop of set items and you won't see items auctioned nearly as often. Since the release of EOF, I have raided up to 6 nights a week and I have gotten exactly 5 pieces of gear from named drops that could be considered an upgrade on my main, only 2 are set pieces. My DKP is amassing at a record rate and I feel like I have nothing to look forward to every night. So yeah, go ahead and kill off my guild split share while you're at it.</blockquote>and if the dev team could get a grasp of this ever so simple concept,  we'd all be far happier and it would eliminate the need (yes I said need) to sell no-trade looted from epic raids.  Don't even get me started on epic named dropping legendary (Ornate Chests),  thats an entirely different rant. Even the amount of times I've gone for legendary sets in EOF instances that drop items that nobody in the group can use.  Fix the underlying problem and all these little problems go away.

[Kenazeer]

<cite>Ciarrai wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>not sure how I ended up as 'against', all what I said was that it is probably 'unintendent' feature, personally I don't care what happens to the loots in the end, it's just a game and I would buy something nice and no-trade in a heartbeat if the price was right...</p><p>the moment people start arguing if something like that is 'ethical', 'fair', 'deserved' etc I start to feel sorry for them... honestly... no offence, but 'get a life', do something meaningful, don't argue over something as silly as that</p><p>on the side note, the only purpose 'no-trade' really serves is to increase the longevity of the game content, basickly it forces you to do it over and over till you get what you want, otherwise places like Unrest you would do only 6 times (on average) and than trade what you got for what you really need</p><p>sometimes... I think that instead of having a splash screen with warnings at start SoE should have a red flashing text on the screen all the time saying '<span style="color: #ff0000">remember this is only a game</span>' <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote>Noted and changed to No Opinion.

[Yojimbo99]

<p>what is this thing now 6 pages.. my lord, anyway the "No-Trade" tag was meant to be just that . no trade, the loot/ or whatever tagged as such was never intended to go beyond the toons present period. you can look at the mechanics that are given to you as a player and try to justify any work around that you use at present, however they all spoil the intent of what no trade loot was meant to be. No trade flag was not meant to: Twink alts, including the alts in the guild, or alt guilds, nor is it supposed to be sold off in some lvl chat channel to the highest bidder. just the people present at the time of the loot dropping, plain and simple. </p><p>You can interpept game mechanics all you want, you can tell me sad tales of the cost of raiding, you can tell me about your lvl 67 troub that just had to have that item so you camped him outside the zone, you can tell me if they didnt want you trading it that soe should had come up with a better system, but alas it all falls short of what the intended and stated purpose of the 'no trade' tag is for: any specific toon  not present at the time the loot dropped shouldnt be getting it.</p>

[Kenazeer]

<p>Finally found the original Moorgard comment. It was added as a note to a thread that was being locked.</p><p><span style="color: #0033ff">Edit: Locking an abusive thread that should have been locked a while ago.</span></p><p><span style="color: #0033ff">Selling the right to loot a chest is kind of lame, but as long as someone killed a mob legitimately there is no violation of the game rules.</span></p><p><span style="color: #0033ff">Personally, I've been on raids where a class-specific item dropped that was No Trade, and nobody on the raid could use it. We looked for someone else online who could and invited them in to loot it (for no charge, of course). While you can claim they didn't earn the right to wear that gear, it still seemed a nice thing to do. So far my server hasn't been destroyed as a result.</span></p><p><span style="color: #0033ff">Message Edited by Moorgard on 07-27-2006 01:51 PM </span></p>

[liveja]

<cite>Mykin wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Now, I am not so rigid as to not allow people with alts and other guildmembers come in and loot because they presumably contributed to the advancement and progression of the guild. </p></blockquote><p> AFAIC, acknowledging that it's OK for alts & other guildies to come in & loot an item, is acknowledging that it's OK for someone to come in & buy the item. Both cases are an example of someone circumventing the "intent" of No Trade. I fail to see how you can maintain the argument that one is OK & the other is not. As other posters have pointed out, the GUILD "earned" the loot, & the GUILD can decide what it wants to do with the item.</p><p>As for "spamming" the channels, I think I've seen this sort of sale offered maybe 5-6 times in the last month or so. I VASTLY prefer to get THIS sort of spam, then the normal childish, half-witted, foul-mouthed garbage that ordinarily infests the 60-69 channel on Mistmoore.</p>

[Obadiah]

Woot! Thanks Kenazeer for digging that old post up. Paints a slightly different picture. So it's fine to *give* the stuff away, and OK but "kind of lame" to sell it. "<span style="color: #0033ff">as long as someone killed a mob legitimately there is no violation of the game rules." <span style="color: #000000"> <span style="color: #ffffff"> Are we done now?</span></span></span>

[thebunny]

<cite>Yojimbo99 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>what is this thing now 6 pages.. my lord, <b>anyway the "No-Trade" tag was meant to be just that . no trade, the loot/ or whatever tagged as such was never intended to go beyond the toons present period</b>. you can look at the mechanics that are given to you as a player and try to justify any work around that you use at present, however they all spoil the intent of what no trade loot was meant to be. No trade flag was not meant to: Twink alts, including the alts in the guild, or alt guilds, nor is it supposed to be sold off in some lvl chat channel to the highest bidder. just the people present at the time of the loot dropping, plain and simple. </p><p>You can interpept game mechanics all you want, you can tell me sad tales of the cost of raiding, you can tell me about your lvl 67 troub that just had to have that item so you camped him outside the zone, you can tell me if they didnt want you trading it that soe should had come up with a better system, but alas it all falls short of what the <b>intended and stated purpose of the 'no trade' tag is for: any specific toon  not present at the time the loot dropped shouldnt be getting it.</b></p></blockquote><p>How do you know this, outside of it being your personal opinion?  Unless a dev specifically states that that is the intent, we're just speculating.  If a dev has stated that that is the intent of no-trade loot, then I'd love to read it.  Personally I believe no-trade means exactly that - once looted, it was not meant to be traded to another player.  But that is also purely speculation.</p><p>Anyway, thanks Kenazeer for finding that post and settling this matter. </p>

[TuinalOfTheNexus]

<cite>thebunny wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Yojimbo99 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>what is this thing now 6 pages.. my lord, <b>anyway the "No-Trade" tag was meant to be just that . no trade, the loot/ or whatever tagged as such was never intended to go beyond the toons present period</b>. you can look at the mechanics that are given to you as a player and try to justify any work around that you use at present, however they all spoil the intent of what no trade loot was meant to be. No trade flag was not meant to: Twink alts, including the alts in the guild, or alt guilds, nor is it supposed to be sold off in some lvl chat channel to the highest bidder. just the people present at the time of the loot dropping, plain and simple. </p><p>You can interpept game mechanics all you want, you can tell me sad tales of the cost of raiding, you can tell me about your lvl 67 troub that just had to have that item so you camped him outside the zone, you can tell me if they didnt want you trading it that soe should had come up with a better system, but alas it all falls short of what the <b>intended and stated purpose of the 'no trade' tag is for: any specific toon  not present at the time the loot dropped shouldnt be getting it.</b></p></blockquote><p>How do you know this, outside of it being your personal opinion?  Unless a dev specifically states that that is the intent, we're just speculating.  If a dev has stated that that is the intent of no-trade loot, then I'd love to read it.  Personally I believe no-trade means exactly that - once looted, it was not meant to be traded to another player.  But that is also purely speculation.</p><p>Anyway, thanks Kenazeer for finding that post and settling this matter. </p></blockquote><p> Yeah - if no-trade means only the people killing the mob are supposed to get the loot, why does the chest become lootable by anyone after a period of time?</p><p>That said, it is kinda lame that we're gearing our alts with EoF set stuff, but that's because of the [Removed for Content] drop system that means a good 80% of drops from MMIS aren't usable by anyone in the raid.</p>

[Valdaglerion]

<p>Well, what about all the people in the RAID that by random choice were rewarded with absolutely worthless gear as it wasnt their class? What about all the people in the RAID that didnt win the lotto in the first place and got rewarded with nothing at all?</p><p>Should we ask the devs to make it so everyone in the RAID is rewarded with their choice of items in every class so no one walks away empty handed? Making RAIDS more like every other quests?</p><p>There is nothing wrong with auctioning of gear. All too often you RAID and walk away without the intended loot so at least getting some coin for your trouble to regear and try again takes out some of the sting.</p>

[Cention]

How can you auction off a no-trade item to the general public?

[Myk]

Hilliser@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>How can you auction off a no-trade item to the general public? </blockquote> Normally on my server, the auctioning is conducted in the 60's chat channel.  Since the guild auctioning the item already has a member wearing it, that person links it in the chat channel.  After linking it, they normally provide a starting bid, somewhere in the 25 plat range.  After a short time, they link the item again and announce a new high bid.  The winner then gets invited to the raid, zones in to the raid zone and loots the item after handing over the plat.  The winner of the item oftentimes links the item in 60's chat thanking the guild for selling them the item.  From posts in this discussion, I trust the funds are used for the costly repairs and buying of potions for raids... since the cost of maintaining a raid force is so high, right? I usually don't have my log turned on, but maybe I'll run it and post an example of it here.  Since a member of the guild that does it the most of my server has chimed in on this discussion saying it's perfectly acceptable to auction no-trade loot, and since it is done on a public channel, I trust that nobody will mind me posting an example here.  I just need to remember to remove a lot of people from my Ignore list   <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[InsertNeko]

Triste-Lune wrote: <blockquote>if you have loot no one wants and can make someone happy by selling it to him why should that be wrong,<b> <u>I'm sick of transmuting items we've put effort into getting</u></b> </blockquote> After reading all this, this is the main post that sums everything up. I'm so sick of spending several hours in MMIS, FTH, the Clockwork, and Eh to get loot no one in the raid can use. Yes, this is Sony's failure, one they refuse to look at, fix, or even comment on. So why shouldn't we at least try to help out someone else who is most likely getting screwed over by SOE as much as we are? What comes around goes around. Maybe that pair of gloves that never drop for you will be dropped by a raid/guild that you helped out and they already have them? Karma and all.

[Sir Longsword]

I could care less if the items are auctioned off, I'm ok with it.  I do find it amusing that the raiding community will say that 'non-raiders' have no need for fabled loot and shouldn't expect it if they don't want to put in the effort.  But now it's ok in this scenario. 

[Arthik]

Sir Longsword wrote: <blockquote>I could care less if the items are auctioned off, I'm ok with it.  I do find it amusing that the raiding community will say that 'non-raiders' have no need for fabled loot and shouldn't expect it if they don't want to put in the effort.  But now it's ok in this scenario.  </blockquote>Just because non-raiders shouldn't expect it doesn't mean they won't be thrown a bone every once in a while.  <img src="/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> In all seriousness, though, non-raiders have to put in a different kind of effort in this scenario -- They have had to farm up the plat to pay for the fabled item at some point or another. But that's just my opinion.

[mo0rbid]

1) It's a win-win for both parties involved, so there is no harm. 2) Those with the plat to afford such items earned the buying power to purchase those items, so it's ok not flawed- i see no problems with the matter

[Catsy]

This is about to largely be a moot point anyway, at least as it pertains to class set gear: <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=357254" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Test Update Notes: Monday, April 16th 2007</a> <b> </b><b><p>*** Gameplay ***</p><p>- EoF Fabled and Legendary set piece distribution will now be based on the makeup of those who participate in the encounter.</p></b>There will still be auctions when people in the raid are geared up, but this should eliminate the frequent Hobson's choice of "transmute or auction" when something drops for a class that isn't in the raid.

[Gungo]

Kepp@Splitpaw wrote: <blockquote>1) It's a win-win for both parties involved, so there is no harm. 2) Those with the plat to afford such items earned the buying power to purchase those items, so it's ok not flawed- i see no problems with the matter</blockquote> So you shouldn't have a problem with SOE placing PVP type fabled faction/coin loot in game. Because then people would in your eyes " EARN" it. On pve servers of course.

[Will.]

Gungo@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>Kepp@Splitpaw wrote: <blockquote>1) It's a win-win for both parties involved, so there is no harm. 2) Those with the plat to afford such items earned the buying power to purchase those items, so it's ok not flawed- i see no problems with the matter</blockquote> So you shouldn't have a problem with SOE placing PVP type fabled faction/coin loot in game. Because then people would in your eyes " EARN" it. On pve servers of course.</blockquote>So you should have a problem if I go to the broker and buy a sword of shielding because I didn't "EARN" it. If I never killed Vil of course.

[liveja]

Will. wrote: <blockquote>So you should have a problem if I go to the broker and buy a sword of shielding because I didn't "EARN" it. If I never killed Vil of course. </blockquote><p>Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that sword a No Trade item? If it is, you can't buy it from the broker. If it's not, you can, & whether you've killed Vil or not is thus irrelevant.</p><p>I'm still failing to see why anyone actually cares about selling "looting rights" to No Trade items. IMHO, it's nobody's business except for the buyer & the seller. </p>

[quamdar]

i still don't see a problem with auctioning no trade items.  if it is against the rules then is giving a piece of no trade loot to someone that helped you once wrong?  what about an alt?  a guildie that is outside of zone and not in raid?  someone that had to run afk during the fight? if SOE wanted to stop the selling of no trade loot it wouldn't be hard, make the chests last 2 minutes max before they rot so you have enough time to decide who gets it but not enough to auction it and bring in someone else to loot.

[jumpmaster12]

I see no issue with this personally. What about those within the community that wish to remain in family/friend type guilds who don't raud the high end  stuff? They still want to progress to and if they have the plat to spend and someone willing to let them spend it no harm no foul in my opinion. Personally im tired of seeing top end gear get broken into infusion of the illusion, would rather  some random noob was able to buy it. This arguement has been around since the early days of EQ1 anyways its tired.

[MadTexan3]

<p>I'm amazed at some of you making out like guilds doing this are exploiting and even post the rules on it. Use your heads for something other than a hammer and think about what you're saying, seriously.</p><p>It's not an exploit since NO TRADE means--quite explicitly in fact--that <b><i><u>the person who actually picks up the item can't trade it later</u></i></b>, which has bugger all to do with who actually participated in the kill.</p>