'Zerker Raid Tanking

[grymmstone]

<p>Okay... I am having a hard time trying to Tank as a 'zerker in the end game. I can grab aggro, but I cannot hold it against any of the high DPS and Mages. Once it is lost I cannot regain. All my Hate arts and Threat increase arts are Adept III or Masters. I have taken the STA and AGI lines in the Warior tree and gone for Bulking in the 'Zerk tree. What should I be doing to root that aggro to me.  If the rest of the raid stops attacking and just debuffs I can eventually regain, but I am tired of watching squishies die and I am uncapable of stopping it. </p><p>Please Help!!!</p>

[Shedlon]

<p>What is your MT group layout?  If you are able to gain initial hate and others are just taking aggro, despite you being able to do moderate damage as buckler spec and continuing to use taunts on cooldown, its either an issue of them not using aggro transfer/dumps or you not having the proper hate classes in your group.</p><p> Typical MT groups will have two if not three hate gen classes (those being Dirge, Coercer, Assasin and Swashy).</p><p> Other tips would be to drop agil for strength for the extra hate and crits, or pick up int or wisdom for extra dps.</p>

[Schmalex23]

drop agi for str line, what good is avoidance if you cant hold agro as a MT.  Group setup would aslo have alot to do with it, put trouby in the group with the classes that are jacking the agro and run one active hate transfer and one passive in MT group.  Personally i like dirge assasin, but some like coercer and/or swashy. Basicly shedlon is right on the money, just agreeing with him =]

[YummiOger]

<p>Sounds like ur Group is incorrect. U will need to have +Hate buffs to properly maintain aggro.</p><p>any DPS class can easily strip a non-Hate Buffed tank. no matter AP build or Ability quality.</p>

[Sormr]

<p>- Use insolent gibe early and often. (when safe to do so)</p><p>- get the 10% resist reduction for taunts (cyclone) from the EoF tree. Be forewarned that this will make Insolent Gibe a frequent group-wiper in 6 mans due to mob proximity - less of an issue for raiding however</p><p>- enforce the raid targetting strictly through the MA, and have the MA wait for a 5 or 10 count before even targetting your mob. My experience is that aggro is most often pulled early on when you either get an unlucky taunt resist or have some parse-obsessed DPS dropping bombs right off the bat.</p><p>- Make sure you get all of your Taunts Master ASAP, including Taunting Defense. Although not as powerful as the guardian equivalent, you will be surprised at how much aggro it generates through the course of a boss fight.</p><p>- Stack your group with hate transfer classes as mentioned earlier.</p>

[grymmstone]

Thanks all!! Me thinks I will try to master out ASAP and I will look at MT group set-up more. I will look at STR line, but I like buckler reversal <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Th one suggestion about the Zerker tree... Should I drop the bulking for Juggernaut boost and go down the cyclone line or just use the balance of my points to 100 to get there?

[FightGame]

<cite>grymmstone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I will look at STR line, but I like buckler reversal <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. </blockquote><p>Nobody suggested to give up the stamina line.  That's the single best aggro generation we have.  That is, the 76% chance to double attack - not buckler reversal.</p>

[Schmalex23]

aye drop agi for str, dont need to avoid anything if you arent getting hit.

[YummiOger]

<cite>grymmstone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thanks all!! Me thinks I will try to master out ASAP and I will look at MT group set-up more. I will look at STR line, but I like buckler reversal <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Th one suggestion about the Zerker tree... Should I drop the bulking for Juggernaut boost and go down the cyclone line or just use the balance of my points to 100 to get there?</blockquote><p> Cyclone tree is really good for MT zerker .. upgrades to Destruction and OW, plus End ability = More Hate.</p><p>If survivability is not a issue .. Full Str/Stamina is max  Aggro</p>

[khufure]

In addition to the other suggestions, get a parser out and find out what your hit % is.   You should be around 80%.  I recommend ACT.  In EOF you need a warden melee buffs (best) or at least +30 melee skills (e.g. dirge has a song) to keep hate.  Basically your offensive skill, probably slashing, should be > 400 in defensive stance.  The closer it is to ~430 the better.  After 430 you hit the diminishing returns curve hard.

[jjn3]

<p>Sort of interesting post; I went a completely different route but it seems to work.</p><p>In the Warrior tree I did</p><p>Agility 8 4 4 8 Wisdom 4 4 4 8 Stamina 5 </p><p>In the Berserker Tree, I did the damage line for the additional hate (cant remember the line name to save my life, ends with Gut Roar lol).  I used the remaining points in the regen line (although I will probably respec to cyclone when I have a few more AA points).</p><p>We use a hate generator or two in the MT group, and I have all of my hate spells at master.  I always use a tower shield, and have no problem managing aggro.  </p>

[Schmalex23]

the wisdome line is pretty usless... i have explained why<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=15&topic_id=350136" target="_blank" rel="nofollow"> here</a>... but if you like it then more power to ya i guess. Raw stats are also pretty usless in comparison to other skills/mods that you could be obtaining through AA.  That extra 25 sta you get from spending 5 points equals out to less then 100 hp, or you could spend it in something like your AE auto attack in the agi line.  100 hp<12% ae auto attack.  

[YummiOger]

<cite>jjn3 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Sort of interesting post; I went a completely different route but it seems to work.</p><p>In the Warrior tree I did</p><p>Agility 8 4 4 8 Wisdom 4 4 4 8 Stamina 5 </p><p>In the Berserker Tree, I did the damage line for the additional hate (cant remember the line name to save my life, ends with Gut Roar lol).  I used the remaining points in the regen line (although I will probably respec to cyclone when I have a few more AA points).</p><p>We use a hate generator or two in the MT group, and I have all of my hate spells at master.  I always use a tower shield, and have no problem managing aggro.  </p></blockquote><p>Hmm im kinda confused as to this AP build.. A more focused AP build results in a better DPS output and higher survivability. The increase in Damage output is directly connected to the hate generated, therefore a better build would result in better Hate. </p><p>Wisdom line is the weakest AP line in the warrior tree and why full pionts in Agil Stat and 5 in Stamina? both seems like a waste as stats mean virtually nothing above 500 Str / Stam.</p><p>Also the "Damage" Zerk line IS Cyclone, it nets the most increase in damage. are u talking about the Debuff line?. </p>

[jjn3]

<p>Skel, some good points made.  Though, I cannot tell you the number of times that I have survived a late cured trauma by having about 100 HPs left lol.  So while sometimes it seems small, it may mean the difference between dead and not dead.</p><p>The Wisdom line is iffy; I am thinking of respec there also, have been for a while.  I am not going to do STA though as the defensive difference between a tower shield and a buckler is too much to give back.  However the point about DPS=hate is a good one.</p><p>The berserker specific line I chose was the third line that ends in Gut Roar (could not find the trees anywhere easily, sorry).  But it raises the damage on your main single target attacks, and raises damage/hate on the combined single target attack (icon looks like a fist I believe; sorry doing this from the field).</p><p>Cyclone certainly raises AoE damage, however other than insolent gibe, I found our AoEs not very useful in raiding.</p>

[ducey]

<cite>jjn3 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Skel, some good points made.  Though, I cannot tell you the number of times that I have survived a late cured trauma by having about 100 HPs left lol.  So while sometimes it seems small, it may mean the difference between dead and not dead.</p><p>The Wisdom line is iffy; I am thinking of respec there also, have been for a while.  I am not going to do STA though as the defensive difference between a tower shield and a buckler is too much to give back.  However the point about DPS=hate is a good one.</p><p>The berserker specific line I chose was the third line that ends in Gut Roar (could not find the trees anywhere easily, sorry).  But it raises the damage on your main single target attacks, and raises damage/hate on the combined single target attack (icon looks like a fist I believe; sorry doing this from the field).</p><p><b>Cyclone certainly raises AoE damage, however other than insolent gibe, I found our AoEs not very useful in raiding.</b></p></blockquote><p> I'm not meaning to be rude when i say this so please dont think i'm saying it that way, but you said your loosing agro to mages and warlocks?</p><p>if you find your aoe's ( as i highlighted in bold in your last post) not to be very useful in raiding that might be the reason why. I have them all upgraded and at master 1 and after hitting a mob with a taunt i aoe, then taunt next then use 2nd aoe, then taunt 3rd if there is one and aoe. its not only meaning you land a taunt on each mob but the aoe is also hitting all of the encounter meaning less chance that the dps will peel one off you.</p>

[uux]

<cite>jjn3 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Skel, some good points made.  Though, I cannot tell you the number of times that I have survived a late cured trauma by having about 100 HPs left lol.  So while sometimes it seems small, it may mean the difference between dead and not dead.</p><p>The Wisdom line is iffy; I am thinking of respec there also, have been for a while.  I am not going to do STA though as the defensive difference between a tower shield and a buckler is too much to give back.  However the point about DPS=hate is a good one.</p>[... snip ...] </blockquote>Regarding cures, don't ever expect someone else to do for you what you can do for yourself.  If you're healer(s) are late on cures for whatever reason, use a remedy potion.  If you sat there and watched your health tick away instead, well, I don't know what to say.  It's like you're standing in the middle of a road with a truck driving straight at you.  It's about 1000 feet away and you could just move off the road, you had plenty of time, but you didn't. The 4th ability in the STA line gives you about 9% uncontested avoidance back.  When stacked with avoidance adornments, you're right back into the same category as a tower shield without any adornments.  If your healers are on the ball and your support is good, you won't have any issues.

[jjn3]

<p>Uux, for normal DoTs I am right there with you, however, a trauma that drops your mitigation into negative numbers mean you are dea dthe next hit; and that time can vary from having the time to trigger a trauma pot to having to depend on a healer to be paying attention (we usually have a dedicated trauma spammer for mobs we know that behave this way).</p><p>I dont think that the 9% uncontested avoidance is the same as a fabled tower shield; although I have heard of some decent Bucklers, I know that the spike damage I took when using the buckler was a lot more severe than using a tower.  Maybe there are some better bucklers in the game now; but I think I will stick to the tower for now.</p>

[jjn3]

<p>Ducey, the AoEs I dont believe are a lot of help are the damage AoEs that cyclone upgrades.  I use both the AoE taunt (insolent gibe) and the group taunt.  They work great; but if you look at the AoE damage CAs, the component that would be nice to have in them does not effect epic mobs; reducing them to a slow cast, low damage CA.  I have better luck switching targets and using the higher damager, quick cast CAs (I rarely lose aggro using this method).  This method does depend on you having a good main assist however.  </p>

[jjn3]

<p>BTW, great thread <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I usually stay away from these boards as they tend to attract folks who mostly want to complain; this has been one of the best open discussions of setting up a raid tank I have read.  Headed home to look at making some of the adjustments you all have discussed (well, except for the buckler thing lol).</p>

[uux]

<cite>jjn3 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Uux, for normal DoTs I am right there with you, however, a trauma that drops your mitigation into negative numbers mean you are dea dthe next hit; and that time can vary from having the time to trigger a trauma pot to having to depend on a healer to be paying attention (we usually have a dedicated trauma spammer for mobs we know that behave this way).</p><p>I dont think that the 9% uncontested avoidance is the same as a fabled tower shield; although I have heard of some decent Bucklers, I know that the spike damage I took when using the buckler was a lot more severe than using a tower.  Maybe there are some better bucklers in the game now; but I think I will stick to the tower for now.</p></blockquote> We do the same thing for mobs that have a trauma like that (dedicated trauma spammer).  I've been hit for upwards of 18K otherwise.  If VoM kept me alive, usually the next hit does me in.  If I'm not panicing at the time, I will hit that trauma pot hotkey.  LOL The uncontested avoidance is a bit different.  Pure block is checked against a mob's level.  The 4th ability in STA gives 4.5% additional block, and a 4.5% uncontested chance to riposte incoming hits.  This isn't a modifier to your base riposte rate.  It's like an additional avoidance buff.  Those alone will probably put you close to 5% under a tower shield of the same quality as your buckler.  This is where the adornments come in.  You can get 2 wrist adornments that add a 2% uncontested parry chance to each wrist (each working like separate avoidance buffs as in the STA line).   1 adornment on your weapon for another 2% uncontested riposte chance (just like STA).  If you want another additional 1% block, you can get that on your buckler as well.  A tower shield would gain the same advantage with all the adornments as a buckler would and still come out on top.  However, I can't recall the last time I equipped one because it was necessary.  I've even been switching to offensive stance more often.  I have good support though, which allows me to do that.

[uux]

<cite>jjn3 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ducey, the AoEs I dont believe are a lot of help are the damage AoEs that cyclone upgrades.  I use both the AoE taunt (insolent gibe) and the group taunt.  They work great; but if you look at the AoE damage CAs, the component that would be nice to have in them does not effect epic mobs; reducing them to a slow cast, low damage CA.  I have better luck switching targets and using the higher damager, quick cast CAs (I rarely lose aggro using this method).  This method does depend on you having a good main assist however.  </p></blockquote> Switching targets is absolutely the best way, IMHO.   You can also use the berserker debuffs on the off targets to try and lessen the incoming damage.  The main target is usually fully debuffed already. However, the AE combat arts can hit quite hard.  They shouldn't be overlooked.  If you don't time them well, you could lose significant autoattack hits.  I'm usually hitting mobs with our frontal cone AE for upwards of 3K.  Time them with Executioner's Wrath (str aa) and/or Juggernaut and you have the potential to hit extremely hard.  Also, if you're pulling mobs from a distance (pet or bow), the casting time is usually fast enough to trigger the AE by the time the mobs arrive.  The range is further than autoattack, so you really didn't miss any attacks on the pull.

[Sormr]

<cite>jjn3 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Skel, some good points made.  Though, I cannot tell you the number of times that I have survived a late cured trauma by having about 100 HPs left lol.  So while sometimes it seems small, it may mean the difference between dead and not dead.</p><p>The Wisdom line is iffy; I am thinking of respec there also, have been for a while.  I am not going to do STA though as the defensive difference between a tower shield and a buckler is too much to give back.  However the point about DPS=hate is a good one.</p><p>The berserker specific line I chose was the third line that ends in Gut Roar (could not find the trees anywhere easily, sorry).  But it raises the damage on your main single target attacks, and raises damage/hate on the combined single target attack (icon looks like a fist I believe; sorry doing this from the field).</p><p>Cyclone certainly raises AoE damage, however other than insolent gibe, I found our AoEs not very useful in raiding.</p></blockquote><p>The benefit of the buckler spec is worth taking the line even if you use a tower shield to tank boss fights. If there was a tower shield line that meant you had to chose one over the other then I could see your point but since that's not the case, the benefit of the buckler line far outweighs the inconvenience of some unproductive AA points on a few specific fights where you need to equip a tower shield. Half of the  AA points you spent in the wisdom tree, and any in the sta tree that arent there specifically to get you deeper into the tree where the quality abilities are, are nonproductive AA points anyways.</p><p>The cyclone tree is a must, if not because of the final talent or the increased AOE damage, then because it is the path to improved Destruction and Open Wounds,  which along with juggernaut will be the bulk source of your raiding DPS.</p><p>Lose the wisdom line for sure, if you refuse to look at the sta line but are interested in raid tanking as a berserker then I can't believe your first choice wouldnt have been Dragoon Reflexes. An "oh sh*t" button every 12 min, with added Def, multi target procs on your autoattacks, and another blue AOE attack if you switch to a spear on the fly as your pre-requisites? mmmmyesplease. </p>

[Schmalex23]

If 100 hp consistently means the difference between you living and dieing then you need some new healers.  Dont get me wrong, im a HP [Removed for Content] just check the leaderboards, but HP and STA can be obtained many other ways.  AA are ment to give you unique abilities, not just buff a few of your stats.

[YummiOger]

<p>Exellent Thread on MT AP builds. really good info there. </p><p>http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=349731</p>

[YummiOger]

<p>And i agree with Sormr  and Uux. Do not underestimate the potential in Stamina Build. Kemt/Skel both have posted with #'s and screen shots of the minimal loss in Aviodance.</p><p>If Tower/Kite sheild is ur only chioce, Full Agil/Int AP lines are the best builds. Dragoon Refelxes / Unrelenting Assualt are both very good end abilities plus u pick up +def/+parry for survivability. AGIL4/4/7/8/2 - INT 4/4/6/8/2 is what i use for tower build.</p>

[LygerT]

<cite>YummiOger wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Exellent Thread on MT AP builds. really good info there. </p><p>http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=349731</p></blockquote><p> i wouldn't necessarily point the finger of blame at the healers, his gear can be a main contributor to his survivability. having all fabled T7 high end gear, all masters and a good raid setup is the best method, then you just need medoicre healers to be able to survive.</p><p>Zerkers have the toughest time getting the setup just right of all tank classes since we have no hate transfers and we rely on others putting hate on us as well as building up our DPS and hate gains to try and keep things under control. the strength line is a good way to build hate up as well as the int line with DPS modifiers but the key to success with MTing and our class is in the right group setup. i didn't want to give up too much of my DPS and offensive skills since i solo and also DPS in the top 3 in our raids but also main tank and probably will a bit more in the future but if you just want to main tank then gear and taunt masters is top priority, second priority is health since we have less health pool than guards can draw from it is mainly put on gear, pre-buffs and healers to keep us alive. lastly is mitigation and defensive though good gear is mingled with this since most tank gear has agi/sta and defense/parry buffs so after you have everything else setup then you can try little things to up these stats but i would say it ranks along with health/sta because without defensive skills all the health in the world won't keep you alive. </p>

[LygerT]

<p>to add:</p><p>do not forget to overlook adornments, many people simply forget about these and how much they can help you, you can either add some DPS, focus on DPS or opt for health adorns depending on your needs of either survivability or for hate control.</p><p>next and last thing is your 1 handed weapon, many people simply forget about their weapon when setting up their character. if you have and are using a 56 damage rating spear then obviously you are not going to DPS nearly as well as you would with an axe or a sword depending on your choice of AA lines in the fighter class. axe is a good one that i choose since you can utilize the crit increase in combination with the increased crit chance in the strength line, sword is next on my list since the haste increase of the wisdom line is a very good benefit but personally opting one or the other is the best and i would say choose a good 1 handed axe of at least 70 damage rating and up your crit AA in strength, in combination with the crit chance with axe you will be DPSing better and holding aggro better.  </p>

[LygerT]

<p> <a href="mailto:Skel@Butcherblock" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Skel@Butcherblock</a> wrote: </p><blockquote>If 100 hp consistently means the difference between you living and dieing then you need some new healers.  Dont get me wrong, im a HP [Removed for Content] just check the leaderboards, but HP and STA can be obtained many other ways.  AA are ment to give you unique abilities, not just buff a few of your stats.</blockquote><p>was my original intended quote but i can't edit any posts for some reason.. </p>

[Schmalex23]

if he is getting smushed because of trauma debuffs then yes, it directely relates to the healers.

[LygerT]

i suppose so, if its on trash mobs. on named it's a little different trying to keep up with everything going on but a good healer does go a long way to making for a successful raid.