Getting into the Synch of things: Timing CAs and Melee [Archive]

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Nocturnal Aby

04-02-2007, 07:51 PM

This was originally posted in the Berzerker forums by Kemt, a berzerker from Venekor. He's done a lot of parsing and logs, and math for his class, and I can only hope that someday, there might be a Brigand equivolent. He answered some questions I had about this topic, so I'll post the entirety of our discussion before I brought it here.<hr />Synchronizing Haste and your weapon, the black hole of DPS in losing attacks: Most combat arts have a cast time of 0.5s and a recovery time of 0.5s. This suggests it is optimal to tune your auto-attack to strike in the small windows between CAs, which occur once every 1s during a standard Combat Art stream. Achieving this goal however is going to be very dependent on your weapon, but there are some general rules we can work with: 1. The faster your weapon, the less haste you need to reduce it to a 1.0s window. Overhasting reduces it past 1.0s. 2. The slower your weapon, the more haste you need to reduce it to a 1.0s window. Underhasting means you don't reach the 1.0s window. 3. The more haste, the more damage you will do overall when not using combat-arts. Slower weapons with very high haste are superior DPS, but very high haste is difficult to reach. Faster weapons will outperform slower ones at moderate haste levels though. So we have some conflict regarding two different goals, when the goal is maximizing DPS you want to get as much haste as possible, but you also don't want to overhaste your weapon, which reduces your number of attacks during CA use. Similarly, you don't want to risk using a very slow weapon, not getting enough haste, and losing attacks in that fashion either. So we want a system where our auto-attacking works with our combat art use, not working against each other. It may be great that your combat art did 700 damage, but if it cost you 60% of your auto-attack damage over the same period, and you would've hit for 400 twice, you're losing 60% of 800 damage, or 480 damage. Suddenly your CA only net you 220 damage. How does it work? First let me point out that I am using haste%s, not haste rating. Check your own %s! Let's imagine that you use a 1.6 speed weapon, and have 75% haste. (weaponspeed/1+haste%) = attack speed = .914s. You can attack every .914s, but when using CAs you only get to attack once a second. In other words you're losing (1-.914) = 0.086s on every auto-attack. (.086/.914) = 0.094 or 9.4% of your auto-attack damage is being lost. Or, you're wasting some of your haste. The optimal hasting for a 1.6 speed weapon is 60% during combat art streams, as 1.6/1.6 = 1. What if you have less than 60% haste? How about 40%? 1.6/1.4 = 1.14. You use a CA, and don't swing, as your attack isn't cooled down. Next CA goes off, and after that you attack. You attacked once in 2 seconds instead of once in 1.14 seconds. You lost .86 seconds worth of auto-attack, or in other words you're losing .86/1.14 = 0.754 or 75.4% of your auto-attack DPS while using combat arts. Ouch! This is a pretty heavy penalty, if your CA is weak you may be LOSING DPS! Underhasting can be devastating! How about a 2.0 speed weapon? A 2.0 speed weapon does best at 100% haste, which is somewhere around 116 rating for example. 2.0/2.0 = 1. Getting that much haste can be difficult though. How about if you only have 50% haste? 2.0/1.5 = 1.33s attack speeds. You will not attack after one CA, but will after the second. Again it is like you have no haste at all during CA streams. You're losing out on .67s of auto-attack for every swing, which is 33% of your auto-attack damage, ouch! Again underhasting takes a big bite out of your DPS! Similarly, should you have tremendous haste, you will lose DPS if you haste over 100% with a 2.0 speed weapon during CA streams. Finally, what about extreme weapons? For example a 2.5 speed weapon? Well, in this case it would be optimal to tune it to a 2.0s window, as you'd attack every 2 CAs. Reaching a 1.0s window is impossible with a 2.5 speed weapon. How much haste is good during CA streams? Well 2.5/1.25 = 2, so 25% haste reaches the 2.0s window. Additional haste is only going to result in lost DPS during CA use. For even slower weapons you simply have to synch them to other second interval windows. IE 3.0s, 4.0s, etc. For a real world example, I reach 88% DPS, and 78% haste alone, with 76% double attack, and I average 600-650 auto-attack dps. I use a 2.0 speed weapon. 2/1.78 = 1.12. I can only get an attack off every other CA if I stream them together because my attack speed is > 1.0. So that means .88s lost per attack, .88/1.12 = 78.5%. In other words I lose 78.5% of my auto-attack DPS for using two combat arts in a row! .785*600 = 471 DPS. Using that second combat art costs me 471 DPS, so unless it does -minimum- 471 damage, I just lost DPS by using a combat art in a stream. Even if it does more than 471 damage in a hit, I only gain that much damage -471. So a good knock for 900 really only boosted my DPS in that second by 429. This is something to be very careful of. Now, if I didn't stream the CAs together (queue them) and waited 1.12s perfectly, I could reduce my loss. But that's difficult to do. So playing carefully and timing your abilities carefully are very necessary to doing good DPS. Match your haste to your weapon where applicable, and remember it is always better to overhaste slightly than it is to underhaste slightly. <hr />I usually play a Brigand, dualing two 1.6 delay weapons. All by my lonesome, haste is usually 23%, so I'm oh, say 37% away from "optimal haste," if I understand this correctly (though there's a very good chance I don't). I have my casting speed reduced thanks to an AA line, but all this information is actually quite pointless, because my question is this:What is the window (lets start from "optimal haste" of 1 sec delay) that you are refering too? Are you refering to the moment you hit auto-attack (and and strike the mob) you then have 1 sec to get a CA off? If so, how should you work your CAs? Hit attack, then count, "1 alligator" while you hit your first CA? So you are doing 1 CA a second, hopefully timed between your auto-attack? How does dual wielding come into play, since it seems like the off-handed weapon isn't always on the same timer as your primary?Essentially, what should I be doing to time my auto with my CAs to optimize my DPS? <hr />Kemt's Reply was:<hr />The little article on over/underhasting works on an assumption that you're essentially "spamming" CAs. In other words, you are using the ability queue, which I imagine the vast majority of players do indeed use. This would mean that your attack sequence would go something like this: Let's pretend a - is about .2 seconds of delay, the 5 -'s are representative of CAs, the single - are representative of auto-attack window. ----- - ----- - ----- - ----- - (Weapon hasted to one delay.) Your goal is to make sure your auto-attacks land in your windows. If they don't, you lose DPS. If you skip over windows, you lose DPS. If you're ready too early, you're wasting haste. For a normal user without any casting or recovery haste (you have Sailwind so we will touch on that in a bit) it takes 0.5s to cast and 0.5s to recovery from your CAs. If your weapons are faster than that then you will miss out on swinging when you could have. This concept is simple, and overhasting is VERY clean-cut. However you seem to be more interested in the case of underhasting. After that 1s window of using a (normal) CA is through, you spend about .1-.2 seconds in a window where you can't perform another CA, but you can auto-attack. The amount of time you spend in this "window" is directly related to your server latency, so please don't ask me to formalize it anymore than that. You can -very- easily tell if you're getting your auto-attacks in or not. Optimally, you want to haste yourself to 1s. This ensures that you attack at the opening of every auto-attack window. However most people can get away with 1.1 or 1.2. (I personally get away with 1.1.) So depending on the player your optimal window is between 1 and 1.2. I don't think you could get much further past 1.2 without "missing" your attack chance and giving it up til the next window. Now as for Sailwind, which I imagine is the ability you're referring to: You should ask my guildmate, Leanan (Forum name Rokjin) who has a very similar guide to this one on Rogues available to both Swashbucklers and Brigands. He also wrote the critical hit analysis guide on the combat section. I could answer the question, but well, this is the Berserker forums, and you have a resource equally as talented available specifically to Rogues, so I wonder what you're doing here in the first place. <img src="/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <hr />And so it was that I brought the discussion here! Unfortunately, I believe Rokjin is a Swashbuckler, so we probably won't be responding to this thread. That said, I'd welcome any input from someone who's worked on this topic! From my understanding, the main goal is to get your delay to a circa 1 sec window, and then just spam your combat arts per your usual, and the timing SHOULD synch up. I am no mathmatician (or even the greatest Brigand) so I could be understanding this wrong. I feel, however, that this discussion is valuable to any melee class, be they berzerker, brigand, assassin, or monk. My apologies if there is already a thread like this on these forums, but I couldn't find it.Oh, if you're wondering, I was trolling the Zerker forums because I have a little zerker I'm working on, and was looking for tips to better myself!

Rokjin

04-03-2007, 01:43 AM

*cough* *points to Rogue AA guide sticky at top that was written by him*I don't post on here eh?Incidentally, while I do play a Swashbuckler now, I also played a Brigand up to 60 on Antonia Bayle, before PvP came out.Much of the key points have already been brought up, and Swashbucklers do have an advantage in CA timing over Brigands, in that Feigned Bravado gives us ridiculous amounts of haste.. Not to even mention our 5 minute recast DPS booster also increasing Haste, instead of having the Knockdown proc like the Brigand one.I've tried to do some parsing on this to determine ideal timing, and it is quite hard. Definitely fight-opening debuffs and Double Up should not be impact by your attempts at CA timing, since that is the main source of your damage. Other then that, if you have an idea of your haste and auto-attack delay (having a UI that shows your Haste in real-time on an info bar or some such is useful for this), then you can try and just wait an appropriate time inbetween CAs.If your auto-attack is not synched up, it automatically becomes synched up after you use the first CA. If it was not synched up, it has to wait for the CA to finish anyways, thus it then goes off as soon as your CA is done, and becomes synchronized. Then you know that after your CA, if your delay is say 1.2 second, you have to wait ~0.2 seconds, then use the CA again.Since Brigand CAs do have longer recast times, waiting the 0.2-0.5s or so inbetween CA usage should have a pretty negligible impact on your actual damage output.Really the best way is to just watch, and get the feel of the rhythm of your auto-attack. If you know you are hasted enough to have less then 1 second delay (or 0.8 with Sailwind), then you can just out-right spam CAs, without fear of losing auto-attacks. Your auto-attack (whether 1h or DW) will become synchronized to your CA usage during the spam period, so the only real loss is however much auto-attack delay you lost on that very first attack which caused the synchronization.If you are under-hasted, then you should insert the needed pause inbetween CAs, keeping in mind server lag does introduce a delay of anywhere between 0.1 to 0.5 seconds (more if really laggy) inbetween CAs anyways.As always, just trying different CA timing patterns and parsing the results in a controlled environment is the best way to figure out what is best for your particular setup.

Nocturnal Aby

04-03-2007, 06:01 AM

Hehe, it is a pleasure to see you reply! I figured that you probably posted the FAQ and headed back to the Swashy forums<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I was wandering if you knew what affect Dual Wielding had in all this? When you dual wield, do you use both weapons simaltaneously, or are they on different timers, making it more likely that you'll miss an auto attack (hitting with only one weapon instead of both) I suppose the best thing I can do is go try to find out for myself! Thank you for the added input!Also, the Brigand I play was the first character I created in EQ2, and I've stuck with him through it all. I love the class. I love the image, and I love the character. I'll probably stick with him no matter what they do. Unfortunately, they seem fairly resolved to make Brigands secondary in near everything. Se la vi.

Foible

04-03-2007, 10:26 AM

Nocturnal wrote........"For a real world example, I reach 88% DPS, and 78% haste alone, with 76% double attack, and I average 600-650 auto-attack dps. I use a 2.0 speed weapon. 2/1.78 = 1.12."Can you, or someone else, break out the constituent pieces of that DPS and haste? I have a couple of DPS adornments & my Deathtoll access ring for a steady +18DPS and 23 haste. Is Flare of Aglility/Strength from imbued rings part of Nocturnal's bigger numbers?Thanks, Foible

Lyasa

04-03-2007, 12:01 PM

guards and zerkers can take aa's that have haste, dps, and double attack. i think a guard i know w/ the haste line has ~40 static haste(with items), w/ another aa skill that adds around 30 haste, and can be kept up almost all the time. while they can have permanent dpsmod from aa's, i don't think there's a similar temp buff for dps, however i have 34 dps mod from items, so if they had similar items + 25ish from aa's and a buckler or the howler for another 25 proc, it's possible plus person in question seems to be a zerker, which gives them the berserk proc for another 25ish dps and haste. i personally can get to ~80 dps mod when items proc (zek cloak, imbued ring) and around 50 haste (imbued ring) dps mod items are ivy shrouded earring, shadow strider boots, +10 neck adornment, +10 ranged weapon adornment, temp proc on imbued str ring, zek cloak haste items are amulet of the forsworn, and agi imbued ring

Rokjin

04-03-2007, 01:11 PM

<cite>Foible wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nocturnal wrote........"For a real world example, I reach 88% DPS, and 78% haste alone, with 76% double attack, and I average 600-650 auto-attack dps. I use a 2.0 speed weapon. 2/1.78 = 1.12."Can you, or someone else, break out the constituent pieces of that DPS and haste? I have a couple of DPS adornments & my Deathtoll access ring for a steady +18DPS and 23 haste. Is Flare of Aglility/Strength from imbued rings part of Nocturnal's bigger numbers?</blockquote> Those numbers are actually Kemt's.. a Berserker. And yes, The two +20 dps adornments, Str +DPS ring, Buckler of the Howler and Berserk Proc.By the way, according to both Kemt and me, the AGI ring is crap. The Haste proc is only on CA use and has a very small chance to proc meaning it barely gives you any haste at all.As far as I've determined, Dual-wielding weapons HAVE to be on different timers, since you can use different delay DWs. They would still Synchronize with CA use anyways, because of having to wait if they are not synchronized. Also it seems if you use different delay DWs, you will have to do some finagling since one will be under/overhasted while the other may be synchronized.i.e.: 100% hasted example:Your Primary weapon is a 1.6 delay weapon, your secondary is 2.0.Your Primary weapon has 0.5 seconds left before it can auto-attack again, while your Secondary has 0.3 seconds.You use a CA, both weapons have to wait 1.0 seconds before they can auto-attack, so you 'lose' 0.5 seconds of auto-attack on your Primary, and 0.7 seconds on your Secondary.After the 1.0 second pause due to cast/recovery timer, both weapons automatically go off as soon as the recovery timer is done. Primary now has 0.8 seconds before it's next swing, secondary has 1.0 seconds.You qeued up another CA right after the first, it now goes off. Your secondary weapon 'loses' 0.2 seconds of auto-attack due to waiting the 1.0 seconds.And this will continue up until the end of the CA chain. When you restart it, it will synchronize at the start again, and will lose 0.2 seconds again, rendering some of the Haste to essentially not have an effect.------Same example with 100% Haste and Sailwind:Your Primary weapon is a 1.6 delay weapon, your secondary is 2.0.Your Primary weapon has 0.5 seconds left before it can auto-attack again, while your Secondary has 0.3 seconds.You use a CA, both weapons have to wait 0.8 seconds before they can auto-attack, so you 'lose' 0.3 seconds of auto-attack on your Primary, and 0.5 seconds on your Secondary.After the 0.8 second pause due to cast/recovery timer, both weapons automatically go off as soon as the recovery timer is done. Primary now has 0.8 seconds before it's next swing, secondary has 1.0 seconds.You queued up another CA right after the first, it now goes off. Your secondary weapon goes off right after that CA, but your secondary still has 0.2 seconds to go before it can swing again. You que another CA, and it goes off 0.1 seconds later due to server lag.. but your secondary weapon still has not swung, so now you lose a total of 1.6 seconds of auto-attack, since the secondary does not go off until the end of that third CA.And this will continue up until the end of the CA chain. When you restart it, it will synchronize at the start again, and you will be have an effectively 1.6 delay secondary weapon that is only marginally benefitting from your 100% haste.Of course you could counter this second scenario by waiting another 0.1-0.2 seconds inbetween CAs to ensure your secondary weapon's auto-attack goes off, but then your 'losing' the 0.2 seconds from Primary weapon again.As you can see, Overhasting has much less of an impact then Underhasting. There is also an impact due to using DWs that do not synchronize. They do not have to be the same delay, but they need to be the same multiple. IE: 2.0 delay and 4.0 delay will synchronize nicely. So will 1.6 and 3.2 (not sure if any 3.2 DWs exist)

Dimgl

04-03-2007, 01:41 PM