2 Feedbacks sent in-game that deal with key flaw in EQ2 [Archive]

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venekortemplar

03-30-2007, 03:51 AM

I sent these two feedbacks and I thought I would post them here in the event they get lost in the electronic shuffle. Also, if any of you players agree/disagree with any of my suggestions, I welcome your input. Feedback 1 of 1. Everquest 2 has some fundamental flaws that I would like to point out. While perhaps it is too late to fix now, I mention these flaws in the hopes in the chance that maybe some of these suggestions will be considered in future SOE and Everquest projects. Everquest Live's main strength is that its achievement based gameplay. Players are willing to endure the everyday grind of Everquest's gameplay system because they enjoy the sense of achievement that they get for the time they put in. The gameplay itself is repetitive and not gets dull after a while, but the sense of achievement is what keeps people coming back for more. Everquest 2 drew much of its lore and history from Everquest Live, it's graphics are prettier, the quests are more involving, and the combat is more polished than the original, but there is one key element missing. A Sense of Achievement. While the idea of the two rival cities Qeynos and Freeport and their counterpart classes were good in theory, much of the classes from Everquest Live were weakened to the point where the classes were no longer fun and the gameplay less varied. Players were reduced from gods in the EQ Live and this made up for the old fashioned gameplay. What EQ2 brings to the table with its retooled gameplay does not make up for the lack of achievement gained from playing weakened classes. It is still a game about achievement, plain and simple. In dividing up the abilities of the original class between the two types, character classes are weaker and the gameplay is less varied than than they were in Everquest Live. In doing so, the sense of achievement and satisfaction in their character is reduced. There is less incentive to invest in their character and continue playing, Feedback 2 of 2. Now one can argue that some have the option to change to their counterpart when betraying their city or make a new character. I don't agree with the idea that a player should have to choose between one or the other type just to regain an ability that was that the original EQ Live class possessed. Most are not willing to restart a character and invest countless hours in their simliar counterpart class. This is months of work that is daunting and not worth the trouble to most players. Betraying their city is also too troublesome just to gain a new spell line and lose their old distinctive one. This is a game geared to more mainstream players afterall. In the end, I feel that the best way to truly enhance the Everquest 2 playing experience is give players both sets of skills. They don't have to be identical skillsets nor do they have to have equal strengths in the skillsets, just have the same or similar functionality. Another problem is the way heroics are set up. A grey heroic that is 20 levels below you should be not be that difficult to kill. Yes, they do minor damage to you, but the same could be said for the player. Now I realize that some offensive classes have no problem with this, but it shouldn't take a priest or warrior class longer than a minute or two, nor half their power bar to finish off a heroic. That is both demoralizing and once again takes away from the sense of achievement. And thus, players feel less of a desire to continue investing in their character. They don't see any sort of noticeable gain from their time spent playing. Last and most importantly, I want to address the items in this game. For many, its all about the items. Many continue to play to gain that next must sought after item. One of the things that many loved about Everquest Live were the clickable armor and items. Much of the gear in Everquest 2 is rather boring, having percentage based benefits or clickable effects with long recasts that trivialize the item. Some provided useful class-based abilities or buffs not available to your chosen class. In the end, there are not enough items out there that truly excite players that make them want to continue playing. While being able to hit 10% harder, regain a bit more energy, or reuse/cast an spell or ability faster is nice in a utilitarian type of way, its not something that makes people drool. The nicest of items are reserved for quests, but once you have the quests done, whats left? There is no large incentive to raid or keep playing beyond that. Where are the random drops off contested named monsters. With the Everquest line of games its all about the items that make players drool and keep coming back for more. Please keep that in mind.

Jerr

03-30-2007, 05:17 AM

Never played EQLive so wont comment on most.But I agree the drops are sad for the most part. Spent two days doing a nice long quest for my 30's toon and got a +2 to STR, AGI,STA as a quest reward. Whoppee. As a mid 30's toon why in the world would I only get +2 to 3 stats? Boogle.I'm not looking for epic type drops. Just that they spend a little more time and make quest rewards a little more appropraite to the level of the quest. +2 to a mid 30's is just sad and just gets transmuted or sacrificed.And a quest that takes me two days to finish cause either you run around a ton or things are hard to find, or both, should drop items comparable to a heroic you can kill duo in a few minutes I think.

Hollywood

03-30-2007, 08:35 AM

So you consider the fact that EQ2 is not exactly the same as EQ1 to be a "key flaw"? I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion... just as my opinion is that I fundamentally disagree with everything you said.

ChildofHate

03-30-2007, 11:02 AM

Regarding your first comment, You keep pinging SoE about the fact that EQ2 rewards players with no real "Sense of Achievement" yet you offer not one single example of what you mean NOR do you give an example of what you would like to see.Not a good way to try to make change... complain about a perceived problem, give no specific examples of the problem and then do not offer any sort of solution to the perceived problem. The only time i have ever seen someone do something like this is if they simply have no grounds to stand on and want nothing more then to just whine. Because that's how it ends up sounding to the people you are attempting to persuade to see your point of view.If the game didn't give players a sense of achievement, they wouldn't still be playing. Regarded, some rewards are not fantastic. But then, maybe it wasn't meant to be. The lower level items shouldnt be stuffed with 4 - 5 different pluses to states... even at L30-ish. Gear-greed is a bad thing. I started EQ2 in beta and loved that the items and weapons you got in the beginning and middle levels were not saturated with a ton of stats, procs, abilities, etc. (back in my day we had wood burning horses. we didnt even have real horses. We had spoons. Dull spoons. None of these fancy schmancy swords like you kids today....) It made it worth-while to do the quests for better gear. But back in the beginning, it wasn't as easy to make money and the market wasn't ruined with plat sellers and people buying plat from the sellers. I say leave the gear alone.DING! That's a sense of achievement. New spells, new abilities, new tier level of armor, new zones, new quests to go after. That's a sense of achievement. Now, you may not LIKE it... which is what i am gathering from your post. You may want more... but then no one will EVER know what it is you actually WANT because you fail to express that specific point in your post.As for each class make up, well... i guess everyone believes what they think would be great. I for one would be torqued three ways east of tuesday if i saw a ranger walk up behind a mob and decapitate it. No different then i am sure a ranger would get his panties tied up in knots should i let off a volley Rain of Arrows. I can only imagine how much cussing there would be if a paladin was able to Harm touch or an SK could Lay on Hands. Yet in your post, YOU WANT ALL CLASSES TO SHARE SPELLS. Yes, you temper your comment with the statement, "They don't have to be identical skillsets nor do they have to have equal strengths in the skillsets, just have the same or similar functionality." But you obviously fail to see that is what SoE has done. My two example are proof positive: Decap being an up close and personal extreme damage skill that assassins have and RoA (or whatever the equivalent is) is the ranger's version. Harm Touch is the SK's ability to destroy life. Lay on Hands is a paladin's ability to restore it.Again, you make statements but dont really take time to offer solutions. Ultimately it sounds like you just wanted to fill space with a rant & whine.Addressing killing grey heroics... honestly, why would you even have the misconception of a sense of achievement from killing a grey? Yet you claim you feel demoralized and have a loss of the sense of achievement because you can't erase a grey mob in a single attack (or however many you feel is appropriate). There is NO INVESTMENT to be had from killing grey mobs. There is no gain from time spent killing grey mobs. If you want a sense of achievement and a sense of gain, then Mentor. It's that simple. You may not like it... but it solves your dilemma none-the-less.Gear: already touched on "gear greed" and the perception that items are all. but since you added a separate paragraph on it, i will do the same. This is not Eq1. The mechanics of the game are mean to be different then EQ1. There are items that do have a click effect and honestly, i wish it didn't. (Armguards of Dread being one example). For the most part, i think the gear is done quite well in EQ2. The devs have designed the game mechanics to lead away from the ideas of EQ1 in that GEAR > ALL. That's why there is item progression (Tier levels). You claim that "the nicest items are reserved for quests and once you have them, what's left?" Umm actually, the nicest items come from high end raiding. Quest stuff is nice but the bottomline is, top gear comes from top-end raiding. What keeps people coming back? Rarity of drops. Take for example the Grinning Dirk of Horror. There isn't an assassin out there that doesnt want that. None. But it's a pita to get because of the rarity of its droprate. What keeps people coming back? Hope. Plain, Simple, Period. The hope that maybe next time the item they want will drop. Now you may ask, "What next?" Well, it doesn't end there. You know that as much as i do. Being able to use the new toys and enjoy the benefits of your patience, labor and tenacity are enough pay off. Sure, people will want to move on and that moving on is focusing on what's left to "perfect" their character as they believe best.In the end, only you can decide what you get out of the game and how much you like or dislike what you get. There are many facets to the game that most dont touch on because they feel it's unimportant. Roleplay, Lore, Tradeskill crafting, World events, High end raiding, etc. Some want to rush through the game straight to the end just to say they did just that. Goody for them! Some want to see every possible piece of content from the beginning to the end, kill every single encounter created, miss absolutely nothing anywhere from the original EQ2 release straight through DoF, kos to EoF, plant their little flag on a hill and die happy. Awesome endeavor! Best of luck. Others want to make one toon that will max out crafting for every single TS available. Have all L70's craftsmen. Umm... ya. Bleah, but ok! That's a definite achievement i wont do. LOL But that's what they want. Your sense of achievement that you so long for is there. You only get out of the game what you put into it. Either you are bored or you are spoiled on EQ1. EQ2 will never, ever be anything like EQ1. For that, i can say i am very glad.

Bayne

03-30-2007, 02:09 PM

<cite>ChildofHate wrote:</cite><blockquote>Regarding your first comment, You keep pinging SoE about the fact that EQ2 rewards players with no real "Sense of Achievement" yet you offer not one single example of what you mean NOR do you give an example of what you would like to see.Not a good way to try to make change... complain about a perceived problem, give no specific examples of the problem and then do not offer any sort of solution to the perceived problem. The only time i have ever seen someone do something like this is if they simply have no grounds to stand on and want nothing more then to just whine. Because that's how it ends up sounding to the people you are attempting to persuade to see your point of view.If the game didn't give players a sense of achievement, they wouldn't still be playing. Regarded, some rewards are not fantastic. But then, maybe it wasn't meant to be. The lower level items shouldnt be stuffed with 4 - 5 different pluses to states... even at L30-ish. Gear-greed is a bad thing. I started EQ2 in beta and loved that the items and weapons you got in the beginning and middle levels were not saturated with a ton of stats, procs, abilities, etc. (back in my day we had wood burning horses. we didnt even have real horses. We had spoons. Dull spoons. None of these fancy schmancy swords like you kids today....) It made it worth-while to do the quests for better gear. But back in the beginning, it wasn't as easy to make money and the market wasn't ruined with plat sellers and people buying plat from the sellers. I say leave the gear alone.DING! That's a sense of achievement. New spells, new abilities, new tier level of armor, new zones, new quests to go after. That's a sense of achievement. Now, you may not LIKE it... which is what i am gathering from your post. You may want more... but then no one will EVER know what it is you actually WANT because you fail to express that specific point in your post.As for each class make up, well... i guess everyone believes what they think would be great. I for one would be torqued three ways east of tuesday if i saw a ranger walk up behind a mob and decapitate it. No different then i am sure a ranger would get his panties tied up in knots should i let off a volley Rain of Arrows. I can only imagine how much cussing there would be if a paladin was able to Harm touch or an SK could Lay on Hands. Yet in your post, YOU WANT ALL CLASSES TO SHARE SPELLS. Yes, you temper your comment with the statement, "They don't have to be identical skillsets nor do they have to have equal strengths in the skillsets, just have the same or similar functionality." But you obviously fail to see that is what SoE has done. My two example are proof positive: Decap being an up close and personal extreme damage skill that assassins have and RoA (or whatever the equivalent is) is the ranger's version. Harm Touch is the SK's ability to destroy life. Lay on Hands is a paladin's ability to restore it.Again, you make statements but dont really take time to offer solutions. Ultimately it sounds like you just wanted to fill space with a rant & whine.Addressing killing grey heroics... honestly, why would you even have the misconception of a sense of achievement from killing a grey? Yet you claim you feel demoralized and have a loss of the sense of achievement because you can't erase a grey mob in a single attack (or however many you feel is appropriate). There is NO INVESTMENT to be had from killing grey mobs. There is no gain from time spent killing grey mobs. If you want a sense of achievement and a sense of gain, then Mentor. It's that simple. You may not like it... but it solves your dilemma none-the-less.Gear: already touched on "gear greed" and the perception that items are all. but since you added a separate paragraph on it, i will do the same. This is not Eq1. The mechanics of the game are mean to be different then EQ1. There are items that do have a click effect and honestly, i wish it didn't. (Armguards of Dread being one example). For the most part, i think the gear is done quite well in EQ2. The devs have designed the game mechanics to lead away from the ideas of EQ1 in that GEAR > ALL. That's why there is item progression (Tier levels). You claim that "the nicest items are reserved for quests and once you have them, what's left?" Umm actually, the nicest items come from high end raiding. Quest stuff is nice but the bottomline is, top gear comes from top-end raiding. What keeps people coming back? Rarity of drops. Take for example the Grinning Dirk of Horror. There isn't an assassin out there that doesnt want that. None. But it's a pita to get because of the rarity of its droprate. What keeps people coming back? Hope. Plain, Simple, Period. The hope that maybe next time the item they want will drop. Now you may ask, "What next?" Well, it doesn't end there. You know that as much as i do. Being able to use the new toys and enjoy the benefits of your patience, labor and tenacity are enough pay off. Sure, people will want to move on and that moving on is focusing on what's left to "perfect" their character as they believe best.In the end, only you can decide what you get out of the game and how much you like or dislike what you get. There are many facets to the game that most dont touch on because they feel it's unimportant. Roleplay, Lore, Tradeskill crafting, World events, High end raiding, etc. Some want to rush through the game straight to the end just to say they did just that. Goody for them! Some want to see every possible piece of content from the beginning to the end, kill every single encounter created, miss absolutely nothing anywhere from the original EQ2 release straight through DoF, kos to EoF, plant their little flag on a hill and die happy. Awesome endeavor! Best of luck. Others want to make one toon that will max out crafting for every single TS available. Have all L70's craftsmen. Umm... ya. Bleah, but ok! That's a definite achievement i wont do. LOL But that's what they want. Your sense of achievement that you so long for is there. You only get out of the game what you put into it. Either you are bored or you are spoiled on EQ1. EQ2 will never, ever be anything like EQ1. For that, i can say i am very glad. </blockquote>Word!<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Slapfish

03-30-2007, 02:37 PM

Overall, no I do not agree with your post. What I read is sort of a general dissatisfaction with your sense of achievement, but not any specific comparisons. You also state you want a greater sense of achievement, but the corrections you propose would make the game easier and provide LESS to accomplish. I don't understand that. How would killing gray MOBS make you feel as if you had acheived something? The over all reason that EQ2 has less sense of accomplishement is that it is a far easier game. That's it in a nutshell. I played EQ right about the time Luclin came out and it was a HARD game, period! There is simply no comparing the level of difficulty. EQ was just really, really hard. The bottom line is that the harder something is to do, the greater the sense of achievement. It's not that complicated. Now, that being said, I prefer EQ2 to EQ. I don't think I want to play a game that hard anymore. At the time it was the only game in town, but my play style is much more suited to an easier game like EQ2. While a sense of accomplishement and pride in my achievements are one aspect of my overall satisfaction with an MMORPG, it's not everything. At least not for me.

venekortemplar

03-30-2007, 02:39 PM

mellowknees72

03-30-2007, 02:39 PM

I really would have to disagree with some of the things the OP mentioned.First off, I seem to recall that a LOT of the gear in EverQuest, until you get to the end-game, is utter crap. LDoN changed that a bit, allowing players to customize gear and get better items, but really...until then, it was crap after crap after crap. Quested gear in EQ1? Forget it - also crap.Secondly, how in the heck is ANYTHING in EQ2 "demoralizing"? If it takes me 5 minutes to kill a grey heroic mob as a priest, I don't feel "demoralized" one bit. de·mor·al·ize <img src="http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/premium.gif" border="0"> <img src="http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png" border="0"><a href="https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fbrowse%2 Fdemoralize" target="_blank" rel="nofollow"><img src="http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif" border="0"></a> 1.to deprive (a person or persons) of spirit, courage, discipline, etc.; destroy the morale of: The continuous barrage demoralized the infantry. 2.to throw (a person) into disorder or confusion; bewilder: We were so demoralized by that one wrong turn that we were lost for hours. 3.to corrupt or undermine the morals of. Now, if the mob stole all my clothes and then kicked me in the butt halfway across the zone, I might feel a bit demoralized. But, honestly, if you're allowing a game to undermine your morale, you have problems that go WAY beyond your dissatisfaction with EQ2.My personal opinion is that EQ2 is far more enjoyable than EQ1. I can play alone if I want, or get a group...I can raid or duo or solo. I have lots and lots of options that don't involve sitting around, waiting for a group, being told that I'm not a good enough healer as a druid to keep a group alive, being hindered by the idea of the "Holy Trinity" (tank, cleric, chanter) being absolutely necessary for a group, being harassed for buffs...In EQ2, I can look up my characters online and check out my kills-to-deaths ratio, how many items I have created, when and where I have levelled, if I have discovered any items in the game. For me, these things bring a great sense of accomplishment. Especially considering that my teeny-tiny guild, which was just basically my husband and I up until recently - was in the top 10 on my server for kills-to-deaths for over 1 year....that is, until we got my husband's parents hooked on the game. They're still learning how to NOT DIE...LOL.So, clearly it's a matter of perception. Some of us garner a sense of accomplishment through little things, like surviving particularly tough encounters, getting through with non-traditional groups/duos, having ratios that we can be proud of. It's not always about feeling like some übergamer and having all the best gear.

venekortemplar

03-30-2007, 02:59 PM

Pipes@Najena wrote: <blockquote>I really would have to disagree with some of the things the OP mentioned.First off, I seem to recall that a LOT of the gear in EverQuest, until you get to the end-game, is utter crap. LDoN changed that a bit, allowing players to customize gear and get better items, but really...until then, it was crap after crap after crap. Quested gear in EQ1? Forget it - also crap.Secondly, how in the heck is ANYTHING in EQ2 "demoralizing"? If it takes me 5 minutes to kill a grey heroic mob as a priest, I don't feel "demoralized" one bit. de·mor·al·ize <img src="http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/premium.gif" border="0"> <img src="http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png" border="0"><a href="https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fbrowse%2 Fdemoralize" target="_blank" rel="nofollow"><img src="http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif" border="0"></a> 1.to deprive (a person or persons) of spirit, courage, discipline, etc.; destroy the morale of: The continuous barrage demoralized the infantry. 2.to throw (a person) into disorder or confusion; bewilder: We were so demoralized by that one wrong turn that we were lost for hours. 3.to corrupt or undermine the morals of. Now, if the mob stole all my clothes and then kicked me in the butt halfway across the zone, I might feel a bit demoralized. But, honestly, if you're allowing a game to undermine your morale, you have problems that go WAY beyond your dissatisfaction with EQ2.My personal opinion is that EQ2 is far more enjoyable than EQ1. I can play alone if I want, or get a group...I can raid or duo or solo. I have lots and lots of options that don't involve sitting around, waiting for a group, being told that I'm not a good enough healer as a druid to keep a group alive, being hindered by the idea of the "Holy Trinity" (tank, cleric, chanter) being absolutely necessary for a group, being harassed for buffs...In EQ2, I can look up my characters online and check out my kills-to-deaths ratio, how many items I have created, when and where I have levelled, if I have discovered any items in the game. For me, these things bring a great sense of accomplishment. Especially considering that my teeny-tiny guild, which was just basically my husband and I up until recently - was in the top 10 on my server for kills-to-deaths for over 1 year....that is, until we got my husband's parents hooked on the game. They're still learning how to NOT DIE...LOL.So, clearly it's a matter of perception. Some of us garner a sense of accomplishment through little things, like surviving particularly tough encounters, getting through with non-traditional groups/duos, having ratios that we can be proud of. It's not always about feeling like some übergamer and having all the best gear. </blockquote>I will conceed that I have been spoiled with EQ Live. My question that I wish to pose to SOE is simply this: is it really necessary to do what they did and split up the abilities among two counterpart classes? Does doing so make the game more fun? Is anything really gained by having both Troubadours and Dirges, Wardens and Furies, Illusionists and Coercers, etc? If we were to put this to a vote among the players, how many would vote to have the classes combined or at least be given similar if less powerful functional spell lines? I've tried illusionists, templars, monks, troubadours, mystics, and furies as well. Each are fun classes in their own right, at first. I just don't see the point in having counterparts. As far as being demoralized, I stubbornly stick to my guns and say that I do think the term is correctly used. There are quite a few people, myself included, that at one point or another, feel complete and utter disappointment and contempt for their chosen class. I'm xx level, and this is all I can do?, so to speak. This is amplified on pvp servers, trust me. From a pvp stand point, the class weaknesses are even more glaring. Just so I can get a better understanding of the context in which you are referring to, what level characters do you play? Casual play seems to work fine in the earlier levels. Past 40, is where I seem to have the biggest beef. It is my opinion that Everquest 2 has some major flaws in its latter part of the game, much like other games. My frame of reference for the sense of achievement I speak of is definitely end-game material. My suggestions are merely on what could make the game better. Big Disclaimer for all that replied: I still consider weak character classes as a fundamental game flaw, especially the support classes. I personally know of many people who love the game concept, its potential from earlier levels, but either hated or felt completely lukewarm about their class currently or had little to look forward to in future levels.

mellowknees72

03-30-2007, 04:42 PM

<cite>venekortemplar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just so I can get a better understanding of the context in which you are referring to, what level characters do you play? Casual play seems to work fine in the earlier levels. Past 40, is where I seem to have the biggest beef. It is my opinion that Everquest 2 has some major flaws in its latter part of the game, much like other games. My frame of reference for the sense of achievement I speak of is definitely end-game material. My suggestions are merely on what could make the game better. Big Disclaimer for all that replied: I still consider weak character classes as a fundamental game flaw, especially the support classes. I personally know of many people who love the game concept, its potential from earlier levels, but either hated or felt completely lukewarm about their class currently or had little to look forward to in future levels. </blockquote> I have characters that range from level 4 to level 63. While none of my characters have reached the level 70 mark as of yet, that mostly has to do with the incredible ease at which I get distracted by alts...and the fact that I had a forced 6-month haitus from the game when I moved into the middle of nowhere and had to wait for satellite internet to be installed.My perspective of the game is probably very different from most folks. I do not raid (although I will help a friend's guild if I'm needed). I had ENOUGH of raiding in EQ1 tyvm. My EQ2 experience is much more casual because that's how I want it to be. One of the things I really enjoy about EQ2 is that there is a wide variety of things to do at pretty much every level. In EQ1...well, the end game was pretty much raid, raid, raid. Unless you were a mage or a beastlord, or really got a kick out of kiting stuff as a druid or bard (ugh, how boring), there was little that you could do on your own.Just out of curiosity, what classes are you considering "weak"? Is it really a major annoyance to you that the classes have counterparts? I guess I don't understand why that would be an issue.

venekortemplar

03-31-2007, 05:46 AM

Pipes@Najena wrot<blockquote>Just out of curiosity, what classes are you considering "weak"? Is it really a major annoyance to you that the classes have counterparts? I guess I don't understand why that would be an issue. </blockquote>I refer to support classes such as templars and illusionists to name a few. There is a rather large shortage in support classes to keep a group going once a healer or other important member leaves and this I feel is because no one wants to play them. Support classes in general I feel could be much better served if their abilities and skills were combined with that of their counterparts.

RpTheHotrod

03-31-2007, 07:16 AM

The reason my brother left EQ2 was due to the conning system. He got frustrated with the fact that even though you spend so much time and effort...and sometimes danger...killing a grey heroic...that you got nothing from it. If it's truly not trivial to you, you should get xp from it.

strNpwrKC

03-31-2007, 12:35 PM

Its not EQLive damnit! EQ1, EQ1 <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

liveja

03-31-2007, 01:17 PM

<cite>venekortemplar wrote:</cite><blockquote>What EQ2 brings to the table with its retooled gameplay does not make up for the lack of achievement gained from playing weakened classes. </blockquote>I'm not sure I buy the notion of "weakened classes", especially when I didn't see a single example given.None of my characters have any great difficulty killing a heroic mob 20 levels below them, nor have they ever had such trouble.I'd have to say that based on what you wrote, I disagree with you pretty much entirely. Perhaps if you elaborated more, but as it goes, I can't see the "key flaw" you're talking about.

liveja

03-31-2007, 01:21 PM

<cite>venekortemplar wrote:</cite><blockquote>I refer to support classes such as templars and illusionists to name a few. </blockquote>Those classes aren't "weak". Templars & Inquisitors aren't as popular because they're seen as "only" healers, whereas Furies have a little bit of everything. Illusionists & Coercers, OTOH, are simply more difficult to play, require more skill, patience, & time invested, & thus aren't for people who want instant gratification -- which is, most people.From what I've seen, the people who play those so-called "weak classes" are almost inordinately proud of their abilities, precisely because they're seen as "weak", therefore more challenging. Thus, more, not less, pride in accomplishment, which seems to be your "key flaw", if I read you correctly.

Spyderbite

03-31-2007, 07:23 PM

<cite>Slapfish wrote:</cite><blockquote>How would killing gray MOBS make you feel as if you had acheived something?</blockquote> Maybe its just me. But, I interpreted the OP's post as... "More loot for less effort please". /shrugs

Shackleton1

03-31-2007, 08:01 PM

Perhaps the OP should be more specific, and also bear in mind that EQ2 is not EQ1. They are seperate games. EQ2 does not "owe" you abilities from EQ1 classes. I would also add that EQ1 classes were a nightmare. I can't imagine anyone wanting to go back to that (unless they only ever played a cleric or something).A lot of the post makes no sense to me. Do you have some specific classes and abilities in mind?

Kendricke

03-31-2007, 08:23 PM

<cite>venekortemplar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Pipes@Najena wrot <blockquote>Just out of curiosity, what classes are you considering "weak"? Is it really a major annoyance to you that the classes have counterparts? I guess I don't understand why that would be an issue. </blockquote>I refer to support classes such as templars and illusionists to name a few. There is a rather large shortage in support classes to keep a group going once a healer or other important member leaves and this I feel is because no one wants to play them. Support classes in general I feel could be much better served if their abilities and skills were combined with that of their counterparts. </blockquote> Really? Tell me again how weak Templars are. I'd like to hear some specifics on how "weak" the Templars you know are. I currently have four across three different servers. While you're on it, let me in on how "weak" Illusionists are. Our primary Illusionist averages around 1,600 DPS, and spikes to 3,000 from time to time on raids. As Livejazz stated above me, the Templars and Illusionists I know are very proud of being able to take a "weak" class and then do what we do with it.