GU33 and the loss of block percentage....

[OrcSlayer96]

<p>While waiting on forming up a raid last night, i decided to look at my gear and realized that the "fix" to our wrist item is more of a nerf to all that invested in the FABLED adornment that gave us 1% block on the wrist.  They changed it from 1% BLOCK to 2% PARRY.   My numbers might be off but you exchanged a total of 2% uncontested avoidance(around 75% effective versus epics) to a 4% cotested scaled avoidance(parry being 25%-33% effective against epics).  They seem to notice the disparity to some degree and gave us 2 to 1 ratio on parry.  In my opimion, if they want to make it more equal they should have made it 3% parry per adornment so that we have roughly the same effective avoidance on epics.  Changing a adornment that has been in place for almost 5 months and labeling as a fix hits us more than any other class out there.  Sure, the other classes could put their block adornment on, but we were more effective with ours when coupled with the hero line.</p><p>What do others think about this?  I had limited playing time last night and was only going against a couple quick epicX2 mobs and a ton of heriocs, but would be curious what other raiders have to say on this.  The only plus side i can see is you still have the avoidance bonus when not wearing a shield(2 handed mode or symbol equiped), but it is a poor compensation to me.</p>

[Kaleyen]

I'm going to have to agree with you on this one Steel, this is a nerf...not a fix. I personally didn't have the blocking adornments for my wrists yet, but was in the process of collecting transmutables to get it.  This has me more then a bit miffed.

[Thaenatos]

I'm upset as well, it's a nerf of an item that I spent considerable resources in obtaining. 

[Inoran]

<p>Are you serious? I haven't logged in yet, but i have my 2 wrists adorned with those blocking ones...</p><p>Bah <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Kaleyen]

So my question now is, is this adornment (it being fabled) worth it...but looking at the other adornments it still looks like it might be the best one. Meh...what a nerf. Does anyone know if this is being talked about on a larger forum?

[Dimgl]

<span style="color: #00cc99">Hate to intrude, but was browsing other fighter forums and noticed this thread. Some important notes: Any boosts you get from items or achievements that add block, parry, riposte or deflects in a RAW % form are uncontested. Things that add skills (such as the forearm adorn) are contested. So you did indeed gain 4% uncontested circular avoidance, and lost 2% uncontested directional avoidance. It's a buff. </span><img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><span style="color: #00cc99"> They had to change it to be more fair to brawlers probably. </span>

[Zoren Northwood]

It was a fix that resulted in a nerf.  Not a humongous deal really.

[Cyrdemac]

A fine nerf I say. Didn't realized it before checking the boards. Now that I found out, WHY I got pounded more heavily last raids, its obvious that someone didnt thought about the impact this "fix" would have on block-dependable Paladins. We DONT have Parry Buffs, Mitigation bonus, Stoneskin or something similar to Tower of Stones. If we tank, we need that Block to survive. Taking this now away, and getting it down to lousy 25%, I agree its more than other classes have..but they have much better Parry , Mitigation or other stuff then we do, its hits us very hard. Giving us 4% parry and taking 2% block, getting block down from 27% to 25% and raising our lousy parry from 5% to 9% seems more like a bad joke than a "fix" to me..

[Vulkan_NTooki]

<p>Am I missing something here? How can 4% parry be worse than 2 % block? </p><p>If its percentage its percentage.. Its not raw parry, its raw %. </p><p>The way Im reading this adornment, is that however the hitrate of epics, you still gonna parry 4% of its attack with 2 of these adornments.</p>

[Cyrdemac]

<cite>Vulkan_NTooki wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Am I missing something here? How can 4% parry be worse than 2 % block? </p><p>If its percentage its percentage.. Its not raw parry, its raw %. </p><p>The way Im reading this adornment, is that however the hitrate of epics, you still gonna parry 4% of its attack with 2 of these adornments.</p></blockquote><p> Actually yes, You are missing something. Paladins have a natural almost non-existent parry-value, mostly around 4-5% due to equipment. So with those new changes on wrists you gat around 9% parry. Ok, so far the math, now the logic..After this patch, you get 9% parry and 25% Block, before you had 5% parry and 27% block. Although block seems just a little bit lower, it really makes a difference with every single percentage, as its our only self-buff for avoidance. So..what do you think will be more effective against a raidmob? 27% block or 9% parry? If you say now, its parry, then you must have never raided before. If you dont have a Dirge in your group, you will almost never parry at all, there was a nice math up there in this thread, showing the difference between Parry and Block at all.</p><p>It doesnt seem to be much in numbers and Avoidance seems to be the same but in fact, its a nerf, as we push a skill that we cannot use mostly on our own and wich is almost useless to us, and we loose some of our valuable block.</p><p>I might be wrong on some of the statements, but this is a discussion, and you are welcome to post your opinion here, because I think some Dev didnt made this math as we did here on this changes.</p>

[OrcSlayer96]

<cite>Cyrdemac wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vulkan_NTooki wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Am I missing something here? How can 4% parry be worse than 2 % block? </p><p>If its percentage its percentage.. Its not raw parry, its raw %. </p><p>The way Im reading this adornment, is that however the hitrate of epics, you still gonna parry 4% of its attack with 2 of these adornments.</p></blockquote><p> Actually yes, You are missing something. Paladins have a natural almost non-existent parry-value, mostly around 4-5% due to equipment. So with those new changes on wrists you gat around 9% parry. Ok, so far the math, now the logic..After this patch, you get 9% parry and 25% Block, before you had 5% parry and 27% block. Although block seems just a little bit lower, it really makes a difference with every single percentage, as its our only self-buff for avoidance. So..what do you think will be more effective against a raidmob? 27% block or 9% parry? If you say now, its parry, then you must have never raided before. If you dont have a Dirge in your group, you will almost never parry at all, there was a nice math up there in this thread, showing the difference between Parry and Block at all.</p><p>It doesnt seem to be much in numbers and Avoidance seems to be the same but in fact, its a nerf, as we push a skill that we cannot use mostly on our own and wich is almost useless to us, and we loose some of our valuable block.</p><p>I might be wrong on some of the statements, but this is a discussion, and you are welcome to post your opinion here, because I think some Dev didnt made this math as we did here on this changes.</p></blockquote><p>The problem i see with how the devs handled this was if this was just to make a item that is usable by brawlers and other classes that cant use a shield or not a good idea to use a shield, they could have replaced the fiery fastening adornment with the new parry one and gave provisioners a adornment more desired than 100 heat resist.   They could have kept the block percentage on the balanced fastening and tanks would have the option to choose from 2% parry or 1% block.</p><p>The big question is how do EpicX4 mobs handle the parry adornments.  If the parry is a true uncontested roll(which seems like it is not)then it is better than 1% block.  The thing that worries me on adornments that use a different calculation than standard parry rolls, is that even if it is working at this moment, all it takes is a bug in a upcoming update or a new dev who doesnt realize the calculation on the adornment and we are stuck with a avoidance check that is around 33% effective to epics versus 75% effective block.  The way the block % was calculated was a straightforward uncontested check and it was like our AA line on effectiveness.</p><p>What we really need is a red name to stop by and tell us what the 2% parry is, contested or or uncontested.  Being as our forum is the paladin forum, i expect a response sometime around 2035...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p>

[Kaleyen]

<cite>OrcSlayer96 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>What we really need is a red name to stop by and tell us what the 2% parry is, contested or or uncontested.  Being as our forum is the paladin forum, i expect a response sometime around 2035...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p></blockquote>2035?  Quite the optimist aren't we Steel?

[OrcSlayer96]

Liluk@Venekor wrote: <blockquote><cite>OrcSlayer96 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>What we really need is a red name to stop by and tell us what the 2% parry is, contested or or uncontested.  Being as our forum is the paladin forum, i expect a response sometime around 2035...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p></blockquote>2035?  Quite the optimist aren't we Steel? </blockquote><p>Heheh, i mistyped on the keyboard late at night, meant 2085...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Kaleyen]

<cite>OrcSlayer96 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Liluk@Venekor wrote: <blockquote><cite>OrcSlayer96 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>What we really need is a red name to stop by and tell us what the 2% parry is, contested or or uncontested.  Being as our forum is the paladin forum, i expect a response sometime around 2035...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p></blockquote>2035?  Quite the optimist aren't we Steel? </blockquote><p>Heheh, i mistyped on the keyboard late at night, meant 2085...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote>Now that's some funny stuff...funny or sad...I'm not entirely sure which at this point.

[Vulkan_NTooki]

<cite>Cyrdemac wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vulkan_NTooki wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Am I missing something here? How can 4% parry be worse than 2 % block? </p><p>If its percentage its percentage.. Its not raw parry, its raw %. </p><p>The way Im reading this adornment, is that however the hitrate of epics, you still gonna parry 4% of its attack with 2 of these adornments.</p></blockquote><p> Actually yes, You are missing something. Paladins have a natural almost non-existent parry-value, mostly around 4-5% due to equipment. So with those new changes on wrists you gat around 9% parry. Ok, so far the math, now the logic..After this patch, you get 9% parry and 25% Block, before you had 5% parry and 27% block. Although block seems just a little bit lower, it really makes a difference with every single percentage, as its our only self-buff for avoidance. So..what do you think will be more effective against a raidmob? 27% block or 9% parry? If you say now, its parry, then you must have never raided before. If you dont have a Dirge in your group, you will almost never parry at all, there was a nice math up there in this thread, showing the difference between Parry and Block at all.</p><p>It doesnt seem to be much in numbers and Avoidance seems to be the same but in fact, its a nerf, as we push a skill that we cannot use mostly on our own and wich is almost useless to us, and we loose some of our valuable block.</p><p>I might be wrong on some of the statements, but this is a discussion, and you are welcome to post your opinion here, because I think some Dev didnt made this math as we did here on this changes.</p></blockquote>

[Cyrdemac]

I actually don't understand your last post, Vulkan..

[Kaleyen]

<cite>OrcSlayer96 wrote:</cite><blockquote>The big question is how do EpicX4 mobs handle the parry adornments.  If the parry is a true uncontested roll(which seems like it is not)then it is better than 1% block.  The thing that worries me on adornments that use a different calculation than standard parry rolls, is that even if it is working at this moment, all it takes is a bug in a upcoming update or a new dev who doesnt realize the calculation on the adornment and we are stuck with a avoidance check that is around 33% effective to epics versus 75% effective block.  The way the block % was calculated was a straightforward uncontested check and it was like our AA line on effectiveness. </blockquote>This is what needs to be answered/addressed.

[Vulkan_NTooki]

<p>I have trouble posting messages while at work. so my last post was saved without the stuff I wrote.. hehe.. We are considering 2% block vs 4% parry. Not 27% block vs 9% parry. Of course you'll block alot more with 27% than you'd parry with 9%. However. <b>IF</b> the %parry is uncontested(as some posts indicates), then the parry you gain(4/100 attacks) will outweight the block you loose(2/100 attacks). So the question we need answered is if the parry is uncontested or not.</p><p>If it is like many ppl claim. (uncontested circular vs uncontested directional) then the parry should be a huge buff and not a nerf.</p>

[Cyrdemac]

<p> There you have it, found this in patch notes for EoF release on november the 14th 2006</p><p> - Parry Check:  (Base 5%, Chance increases with additional parry skill.)  The chance to parry an incoming attack is modified by level and offense skill of the mob you are fighting.  Note:  A base 20% of parries turn into ripostes.  (Modified by certain achievements)</p> <p>  - Block Check:  (Shield Required).  The quality of the shield determines the block chance.  Block is only modified by mob level and is not a contested roll vs. mob skill.</p><p>So Parry IS contested as it uses mob skill, as Block is NOT.</p><p>So far for the maths, you are welcome to join the discussion about this secret nerf.</p>

[PulsarBD]

thanks cyrdemac for showing this. i dont think they make an extra calculation in combat for an uncontested parry roll as some said here. so basically it was a stealth nerf. after this happened i noticed also that i get more beating again. what really bugs me too is that i spent like 10 plat per adornment to get extra block and NOT extra parry. <img src="/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> at the time with the +block it was a good investement pallies already have a hard time getting their tanking skill up to par, so why take away that lil that made a huge difference for us. i hope the devs will lokk into this again and do soemthign about it.

[Vulkan_NTooki]

<p>There was a contradicting statement from dev's in another post(cant seem to find it now tho) that stated adornment with raw % on em was uncontested. Parry being especially noted.</p><p>So its still hearsay I guess..</p>

[Arraza]

<cite>Vulkan_NTooki wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>There was a contradicting statement from dev's in another post(cant seem to find it now tho) that stated adornment with raw % on em was uncontested. Parry being especially noted.</p><p>So its still hearsay I guess..</p></blockquote><p> And will continue to be hearsay until November 10th, 2010... when the next dev decides to post on the pally forums.</p><p> Seriously, though, how would they be able to seperate parry into uncontested and contested, that seems a little confusing.</p>

[PulsarBD]

whatever happened to the official dude thet played as pally. was one of the major dev or community managers. did he ever come back with his findings? (forgot his name, just remember one of the big names for SOE eq2 stuff in relations with the playerbase wanted to do this.) maybe was grimwell even?

[Rast]

Grimwell, and he's not said anything that i know of to this point.

[OrcSlayer96]

Tricaan@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>whatever happened to the official dude thet played as pally. was one of the major dev or community managers. did he ever come back with his findings? (forgot his name, just remember one of the big names for SOE eq2 stuff in relations with the playerbase wanted to do this.) maybe was grimwell even? </blockquote>You are probably thinking of Brenlo, the crafting dev that was moved by SOE to another position completely outside of EQ2.  He stated he was leveling up a paladin and seeing how it was, but i imagine that issue was dropped when he moved on.  Maybe one of these days we will have a dev that plays the class normally and realise dome of the tweaks they need, heheh.

[Prrasha]

<cite>Arraza wrote:</cite><blockquote><p> Seriously, though, how would they be able to seperate parry into uncontested and contested, that seems a little confusing.</p></blockquote>Um...  just like you said it. If (uncontestedparry < random)   parry; Else If (contestedparry < (random * contested_scaling_factor))   parry; Else   no_parry; And we already know that parry adornments are handled outside the parry rules, because the 1HS one is "2% Riposte from frontal arc, 2% Parry from side and rear arcs."  If Ripostes are generally 20% of parries, this has to be a special case.

[Cyrdemac]

<p>....nobody seems to care..*shrug*</p><p>Does anyone even noticed the blow in tanking due to less block?</p>