troubadors are not that bad (a parse from Labs) [Archive]

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RanmaBoyType

03-25-2007, 10:02 PM

The beginning - My main is a conjurer, level 70, almost fully mastered, and decent gear (no slot less than legendary) My guild raids in an alliance, of wonderful people, and for the most part my conji would be in the top 3 of every fight according to damage.What we lacked however was a full time troubador, so i made one. She is 70, and i now raid with the troubador. My quarrel is with all the other troubadors complaining that our DPS is too low. Perhaps i am looking at things wrong, and if i am please fill me in, but i am going to include actual numbers from our labs trash run tonight.The set ups were NOT the best they could of been tonight, as we were short raiders, and short specific classes. The trouby group was NOT perfect, but was made up of the following classes: 70 Fury, Conji, Warlock, 69 warlock, and 67 guardian (no other mages available for this slot other than necro, who was raid leader and just did not want to move all around to make a pure trouby/mage group) Note also that the conji was out of the raid zone for at least the first 7 or 8 encounters. Therefore take that into account when you see the total numbers.We only did trash as we had planned a full labs run later this week. Many players were semi afk mid fights and we spent time training mobs to get by to clear all the trash, so, with that in min the DPS numbers i will be showing are much lower than actual fight damage (most any parsing raider understands the final numbers do not reflect most fights)Things to note before the numbers - on my troubador i raid with Frolicking of blades master 1, Aria of Acclamation Master II, and Precision of the Maestro Adept 1 (this is all i am really referring to here) I got vim on myself as well and had about 620 INT at raid start time (my gear is terrible, as i have just started raiding with this character)My main points i am going to throw in here is my damage, the damage attributed to every member of my group from precise note, and dissonant note, and then where the ranks fall for the full raid. I hope this makes sense to all of you.Our top damage dealers for the raid were in the following order:Swashy - 3,630,582 @ 1395.3 DPSWarlock 1 - 2,301,835 @ 884 DPSAssasin 1 - 2,290,186 @ 884 DPSNecro 1 - 2,248,686 @ 864.21 DPSAssasin 2 - 2,212,166 @ 850.18 DPSWarlock 2 (level 69) 1,800,498 @ 691.97 DPSConji - 1,745,818 @ 670.95 DPSNow onto my group the damage that they did SOLELY from my dissonant note proc, and precise note proc is the following:Conji - Dissonant note - 217,308; Precise Note - 95,118Warlock 1 - Dissonant note - 141,227; Precice Note - 50,907Warlock 2 (level 69) - Dissonant note - 116,282; precise note - 41,821Fury - Dissonant note - 106,923; Precise note - 39,077The Guardians added damage was minimal as they only procced off his procs. Had we filled this slot with another mage my attributed numbers would have been higher. My damage alone on the parser was 774,578 @ 297DPS and my total time in combat was 2608 seconds- ranking me number 15 out of 21 for dps on the raid. The extra damage my group did from those 2 procs alone was :808,663 damage to give me a total of 1,583,241 @ 607.07 DPS and new rank of 10 out of 21 for DPS for the raid.Had we had another mage in my group i would put imagine that being another 100DPS contributed to my score putting me at 700+ or rank 6 with our set up.What does this mean to me? I do not think troubies are as bad in damage as everyone claims them to be, because i feel too many look over the damage we add to a group. Granted everyone adds buffs to a group i do not think any serious player can say that all group buffers are created equal. My conji adds a damage shield and a melee proc, neither of which attribute anywhere near the damage dissonant note or precise note does. I am sure wizards and warlocks are similiar, however if someone feels that other classes add more damage to a group, please post the numbers so we can compare.Give my trouby time to get better gear, increase my int to around 900, and get some master spells. Attribute that with a full raid force and a proper trouby group and i think we are exactly where we should be.Your thoughts?

Graywindnz

03-25-2007, 10:24 PM

I know we are not to bad and bring so much to a group. I did a trash labs the other day and while I parsed low, all of my grp was parsing in the top 5 for most of the fights (not the healer:roll<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. We 2 grped it and my grp only had 2 mage types and they were the top 2 most of the time..I did put jesters cap on those that i felt needed it more, including the MT and a healer. And I'm mostly mastered and nothing less that mastercrafted and ledgenary. I also cast PoTM almost every fight so that helped. I personaly doint see whats wrong with a troub, as long as you understand what you do your fine. And yes you can solo I went around Bonemire and soloed all the Solo named i could find with no problems, Including a 70^ and i was lvl 69..My 2cp

Spider

03-25-2007, 10:39 PM

yet unfortunatly you will be soon attacked by all teh doom and gloom UBAR raiding troubs ( most of which who dont play there troubs ) and told how much u dont know what your talking about so prepare your flame proof undies

Graywindnz

03-25-2007, 11:02 PM

Oh Im preped and have my flame retardent undies and even a shield , just in case.

RanmaBoyType

03-26-2007, 12:09 AM

but that is my question. what would the complaint even be? They want to be number one on the list?I want to know what other hardcore raiders think when they see the numbers, if they are even looking? (noting that the numbers i got were from a non hardcore raiding alliance, on a subnormal not full raid as well)

Vraneth

03-26-2007, 12:59 AM

Graywindnz wrote: I personaly doint see whats wrong with a troub, as long as you understand what you do your fine. There is a lot of stuff wrong with troubadours ATM: 1. The scaling of our buffs and debuffs is horrible. 2. We have spells that actually lower the DPS we put out if we choose to use them ( Sandra's, Clara's and PotM) 3. We have quite a few spells that are virtually useless including 2 AT's. 4. Our 50/70 special was made literally useless with LU 24, so was our charm.

Antryg Mistrose

03-26-2007, 01:15 AM

Where to start? Your experimental technique is just plain wrong: <ul><li>You include in your dps, procs that you are giving to other players, yet post their unmodified values</li><li>You aren't comparing (if your group makeup is anything to go by, classes at the same level</li><li>Some characters you beat were semi-afk</li></ul>My templar in such a situation would look like pretty good dps. My illusionist? No comment, as the nerfbat swingith.

RanmaBoyType

03-26-2007, 02:14 AM

lets see..POTM might decrease our dps, but it increases everyone elses. I do not see why you are complaining.i could care less about the scaling, as once you hit 70 who cares about the previous 69 levelsevery class has useless spells, don't use them /shrugin the top 7 dpsers are 3 members from my group. their total damage is listed there - warlock 1, 2, and conji were all in my group. If you need me to do subtraction to get their unmodified numbers for you, then perhaps your issues with a troubador is not your only problem.the entire raid was 70, minus warlock 2 who was 69 and the warrior who was 67 (which i stated). Does that help clarify the classes of the same level for you?If the mages in my group were not semi AFK, then not only would their damage have gone up, but so would the procs that i contributed to them. Is your math really that bad?Please give me more. I want to see if all hardcore raiding troubadors are this terrible at logic.

Vraneth

03-26-2007, 02:58 AM

ForgottenFoundling

03-26-2007, 03:07 AM

<cite>RanmaBoyType wrote:</cite><blockquote>lets see..POTM might decrease our dps, but it increases everyone elses. I do not see why you are complaining.i could care less about the scaling, as once you hit 70 who cares about the previous 69 levelsevery class has useless spells, don't use them /shrugin the top 7 dpsers are 3 members from my group. their total damage is listed there - warlock 1, 2, and conji were all in my group. If you need me to do subtraction to get their unmodified numbers for you, then perhaps your issues with a troubador is not your only problem.the entire raid was 70, minus warlock 2 who was 69 and the warrior who was 67 (which i stated). Does that help clarify the classes of the same level for you?If the mages in my group were not semi AFK, then not only would their damage have gone up, but so would the procs that i contributed to them. Is your math really that bad?Please give me more. I want to see if all hardcore raiding troubadors are this terrible at logic.</blockquote> Giving partial zones dps is similar to looking at a AE fight where a troub parses high and saying that troubs do great dps. While our ability to buff casters is great, that dps is subject solely to the ability of the players and the timing of certain buffs (PotM & jesters). Also, a better parsing group of mages will show our contribution as being much less than this one did, while our personal contribution will not scale as well. I understand what you're trying to show, but your methodology has some flaws. If you take credit for the dmg of precise and dissonant note, then a fury (which can parse higher than our personal dps, heal, cure and rez - thus having more utility) could take credit for vimming someone, the dps from agitate, dps for keeping a necro alive during lifeburn - etc, etc.

Epif

03-26-2007, 03:50 AM

<cite>RanmaBoyType wrote:</cite><blockquote>The beginning - My main is a conjurer, level 70, almost fully mastered, and decent gear (no slot less than legendary) My guild raids in an alliance, of wonderful people, and for the most part my conji would be in the top 3 of every fight according to damage.What we lacked however was a full time troubador, so i made one. She is 70, and i now raid with the troubador. My quarrel is with all the other troubadors complaining that our DPS is too low. Perhaps i am looking at things wrong, and if i am please fill me in, but i am going to include actual numbers from our labs trash run tonight.The set ups were NOT the best they could of been tonight, as we were short raiders, and short specific classes. The trouby group was NOT perfect, but was made up of the following classes: 70 Fury, Conji, Warlock, 69 warlock, and 67 guardian (no other mages available for this slot other than necro, who was raid leader and just did not want to move all around to make a pure trouby/mage group) Note also that the conji was out of the raid zone for at least the first 7 or 8 encounters. Therefore take that into account when you see the total numbers.We only did trash as we had planned a full labs run later this week. Many players were semi afk mid fights and we spent time training mobs to get by to clear all the trash, so, with that in min the DPS numbers i will be showing are much lower than actual fight damage (most any parsing raider understands the final numbers do not reflect most fights)Things to note before the numbers - on my troubador i raid with Frolicking of blades master 1, Aria of Acclamation Master II, and Precision of the Maestro Adept 1 (this is all i am really referring to here) I got vim on myself as well and had about 620 INT at raid start time (my gear is terrible, as i have just started raiding with this character)My main points i am going to throw in here is my damage, the damage attributed to every member of my group from precise note, and dissonant note, and then where the ranks fall for the full raid. I hope this makes sense to all of you.Our top damage dealers for the raid were in the following order:Swashy - 3,630,582 @ 1395.3 DPSWarlock 1 - 2,301,835 @ 884 DPSAssasin 1 - 2,290,186 @ 884 DPSNecro 1 - 2,248,686 @ 864.21 DPSAssasin 2 - 2,212,166 @ 850.18 DPSWarlock 2 (level 69) 1,800,498 @ 691.97 DPSConji - 1,745,818 @ 670.95 DPSNow onto my group the damage that they did SOLELY from my dissonant note proc, and precise note proc is the following:Conji - Dissonant note - 217,308; Precise Note - 95,118Warlock 1 - Dissonant note - 141,227; Precice Note - 50,907Warlock 2 (level 69) - Dissonant note - 116,282; precise note - 41,821Fury - Dissonant note - 106,923; Precise note - 39,077The Guardians added damage was minimal as they only procced off his procs. Had we filled this slot with another mage my attributed numbers would have been higher. My damage alone on the parser was 774,578 @ 297DPS and my total time in combat was 2608 seconds- ranking me number 15 out of 21 for dps on the raid. The extra damage my group did from those 2 procs alone was :808,663 damage to give me a total of 1,583,241 @ 607.07 DPS and new rank of 10 out of 21 for DPS for the raid.Had we had another mage in my group i would put imagine that being another 100DPS contributed to my score putting me at 700+ or rank 6 with our set up.What does this mean to me? I do not think troubies are as bad in damage as everyone claims them to be, because i feel too many look over the damage we add to a group. Granted everyone adds buffs to a group i do not think any serious player can say that all group buffers are created equal. My conji adds a damage shield and a melee proc, neither of which attribute anywhere near the damage dissonant note or precise note does. I am sure wizards and warlocks are similiar, however if someone feels that other classes add more damage to a group, please post the numbers so we can compare.Give my trouby time to get better gear, increase my int to around 900, and get some master spells. Attribute that with a full raid force and a proper trouby group and i think we are exactly where we should be.Your thoughts?</blockquote> Well the bold part is where a troub should normally parse on a T7 named Mob for dps. the Underline part you shouldnt even worry about cause your buff gives EACH PLAYER the proc chance if it procs it counts as there DPS NOT YOURS. So all im seeing from you is that yes at 290 something dps you were parseing high on trash cause the some of your players were afk. Troub dps does blow nuts have you ever tried to go out solo and kill something we cant take out a ^^ lvl 70 at lvl 70 i know were not ment to but our DPs needs massive help. ALL other classes have a 15 min timer option for either Massive heals, taunts or Dps Cept the Dirge. We are a grouped based buffing class i understand but when at t4 were doing just as much damage at t7 what do you see roung there? As a test I kept my self completely buffed for PVP fight in labs and i was parseing around 500+ on on fight i parsed 1300 i had around 970 int with Ptom jesters and a fury int buff, Time compresion. All the bigg stuff on me. So when i respeced to how a troub should be raid speced for PVE I parsed around 150 to 300 anything below 250 your not paying attention. When you really sit down and look at the troub class there alot of thing that are messed up buffs not being the right tier our debuffs not being where they should.Well hope i didnt sound like i rambled on. But dude troubs do need some serious love.Dreadnaught EPIF Raiding troub on Naggy

VericSauvari

03-26-2007, 03:58 AM

its 3am and i just got home from work..so i only skimmed through this post..however labs is pretty nice for boosting a troubadors dps due to the fact that there are many many grouped mobs in this zone..grouped mobs + PoM + debuff cycling = some hawt sexy dps numbers (for all your group members)

Vraneth

03-26-2007, 04:19 AM

Labs is also a lot of blue/white cons which means you actually land everything when you spam debuffs. Try something like EH where half of the debuffs you toss out during a PotM spam is being resisted, then PotM isn't too fun anymore, even though there is 5 mobs in the encounter.

VericSauvari

03-26-2007, 04:39 AM

<cite>Vraneth wrote:</cite><blockquote>Graywindnz wrote: 2. We have spells that actually lower the DPS we put out if we choose to use them ( Sandra's, Clara's and PotM) </blockquote>I never did understand why people say sandra's lowers our dps (i do however understand why people think clara's does this, i however argue that a debuff is better then no debuff) Is it because the low 700ish hit verses the possibility of 1 autoattack doing 900+ or a proc going off? It does only take 0.5 seconds..

Antryg Mistrose

03-26-2007, 05:51 AM

<cite>RanmaBoyType wrote:</cite><blockquote>lets see..POTM might decrease our dps, but it increases everyone elses. I do not see why you are complaining.i could care less about the scaling, as once you hit 70 who cares about the previous 69 levelsevery class has useless spells, don't use them /shrugin the top 7 dpsers are 3 members from my group. their total damage is listed there - warlock 1, 2, and conji were all in my group. If you need me to do subtraction to get their unmodified numbers for you, then perhaps your issues with a troubador is not your only problem.the entire raid was 70, minus warlock 2 who was 69 and the warrior who was 67 (which i stated). Does that help clarify the classes of the same level for you?If the mages in my group were not semi AFK, then not only would their damage have gone up, but so would the procs that i contributed to them. Is your math really that bad?Please give me more. I want to see if all hardcore raiding troubadors are this terrible at logic.</blockquote>Well more information is always helpful. I have raided a lot more as a Templar and Illusionist, than the 2 months I've spent raiding T7 as a Troub, so I'm hardly the "uber raider" you seem so down on. But AFK on either of those classes and people notice. Buffwise, an Illusionist brings close enough the same as a troub, while doing 1.5 -2 times the damage, and crowd control, memwipes and so on. If the Warlocks in your group were not semi AFK, then they would have died without Alin's. Congratulations, you have now discovered the main reason why troubadors are essential on raids.

Cynnigig

03-26-2007, 06:15 AM

The problem with math like this is that if you want to add the dps your procs contribute to your dps, then you must also subtract the dps from their procs on you. If you take away everything a conjurer, warlock and fury contributes to your personal dps, you will be left with very little.

Jeger_Wulf

03-26-2007, 11:47 AM

I'm glad you're happy with your troub. I'm not particularly, but that doesn't hurt you any that I can see. Good hunting. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

RanmaBoyType

03-26-2007, 02:32 PM

<blockquote>The problem with math like this is that if you want to add the dps your procs contribute to your dps, then you must also subtract the dps from their procs on you. If you take away everything a conjurer, warlock and fury contributes to your personal dps, you will be left with very little.</blockquote>I unfortunately no longer have the parse in front of me to refer to, but this is exactly what i am looking for answers from by more experienced troubadors. My main is a conjurer, and at most the only thing (damagewise) i add to the non MT player is ember seed which procs less than half the time dissonant note will, procs for less damage, and can only be maintained on as many players as you have concentration (2 for a conji with group buffs and a pet standing) where as dissonant note and precise note both proc off the entire group (assuming the group is mainly spell casters).Precise note will always proc (assuming POTM is cast) pending resists, and dissonant note procs at a 45% rate(with my current AA setup) Everyone does great damage in the perfect group set up, and those numbers do drop dramatically if the group is set up improper. Does your raiding necro still hit 2800DPS grouped with 5 guardians? No, but then again no one would ever put a necro with 5 guardians. (and no, lifeburn, incinerate and undead tide all on the same mob once an hour(for incinerate) does not count) The once in a blue moons are not what i am looking for.Pending a group of even one conjurer and one necro, both with mage pets out, means my procs are now working off 4 casters instead of just 2 (pets). Add in a fury who can nuke, that makes 5. Fill the last 2 slots as you see fit, i would put in more mages, but i want to see why you guys say it would lower the overall dps of the raid.Can you please give me the numbers, as i have attempted to show you, where it would be more beneficial to say have a wizard or warlock elsewhere other than with a trouby (aside from amends on a warlock, in which case i would fill a group with trouby, fury, conji, necro, warlock, paladin then)I just cannot seem to see, from a DPS standpoint how our numbers are "that bad" also noting the only thing i atributed to myself was the damage from dissonant note and precise note. I did not include the fact that simplay because i exist the other 5 members of my group can do 40% more damage without pulling aggro. They would not be able to do it unless i were there (or a coercer, but that is not in the scope of this argument) All that damage may not show up under my little troubador when the numbers are posted, but they would not be there if my little troubador were not there.Perhaps you are right in a few things need to be scaled, but in my adept spells and treasured weapons i still think i am doing a-ok with the proper raid group.(the original post was NOT meant to account for troubadors "soloability" - i am strictly trying to look at things from a raiding standpoint)

Jeger_Wulf

03-26-2007, 03:45 PM

There are many problems with the concept of reducing a class to numbers. First, there are too many different group types to handle them all. In a perfectly-constructed raid group, troubs bring a lot. When in a pick up group of one berserker, two healers and a troubadour, they don't bring nearly as much.Second, much of the damage that a troubadour brings is not "satisfying" to many people. I might know that my Bria's and Alin's is helping my caster group a lot, but I don't get much from it. OTOH, while on my warlock, if the tank pulls a lot of mobs, I count 1-2-3 and cut lose, all the mobs fall down, and everyone says "Wow, Foster, leave some for us" I get some satisfaction. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I find the troubadour the least-satisfying of my six toons to play.Third, the numbers don't account for challenge. People usually like a little challenge while playing their toons. Frankly, my warlock isn't as challenging to play as my troubadour is now. However, for the longest time the troubadour is very boring to play. Mez is worth very little until you get higher level and put some AAs into it. Charm is worth very little even then (although I sometimes use it.) You don't even get Jester's Cap and PotM until high level. Below 60, there is very little to do when playing the troub. Even with my troubadour at 70, my 40 necro is much more challenging to play.So how do you figure it all out? IMO, the best way is class population. People aren't stupid - they play the classes that are the most fun. If the class is fun to play, then no amount of whining on this board is going to drive people away. They will find out eventually.> i am strictly trying to look at things from a raiding standpoint)I think all of us (even us "doom-and-gloom" troubies) realize troubadours bring a lot to a raid caster group (even when on AF.)

RanmaBoyType

03-26-2007, 08:09 PM

<blockquote>Second, much of the damage that a troubadour brings is not "satisfying" to many people. I might know that my Bria's and Alin's is helping my caster group a lot, but I don't get much from it. OTOH, while on my warlock, if the tank pulls a lot of mobs, I count 1-2-3 and cut lose, all the mobs fall down, and everyone says "Wow, Foster, leave some for us" I get some satisfaction. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I find the troubadour the least-satisfying of my six toons to play </blockquote>This is an excellant point i am trying to make. And then maybe it is just to the players who play troubadors think they are boring, and attribute that to lack of damage and usefulness. Whether the trouby is boring is irrelevant to the fact that they do bring alot to a good raid group. For the pickup group, the trouby might not offer much, but they still offer something, be it haste, and the little DPS(or alot if you gear is better than mine, which currently is not tough to do ^_~ ) But then again you can say that to any class. If you have a pick up group of 2 guardians, what is a 3rd guardian have to offer?My trouby puts out no where near the damge my conjurer does, but i feel more of an accomplishment knowing how much more i am adding to the 5 other members of my group.As far as the mez is concerned i do not see why anyone would say it is worthless, as it refreshes faster than it's duration is, meaning you can always keep one mob mezzed. The charm, yeah i am dissapointed in the 14 sec duration (even more when it drops quickly) but in exp groups i have experienced mobs do not usually live that long anyway. For me about 75% of the time i get the add charmed and sick it on the target. Target dies before charm wears off. Dismiss pet, elude and it goes straight for the tank. Sounds like a good plan to me.If these are all the quarrells players have with troubies then i stand by my original post. I just do not think we are as bad as everyone else does. ^_^

aelder~

03-26-2007, 10:00 PM

Another reason the damage is not satisfying is that so much of it is passive. Nobody (I think) is arguing that troubadors are not valued raiders. Raids & raid leaders respect what troubadors contribute and most raid guilds will typically try to have two--not that that's a lot, but seeing as how few of us there are it makes for sufficient demand.I think what is really at issue is that so much of our benefit is from passive buffing that we yearn to be a bit more direct in our impact. Skewing some of our group damage towards individual combat art / spell casting damage would, for example, at least make active playing more important and discourage guilds from making bard bot autofollow boxes.Happy hunting,

Cuz

03-26-2007, 11:13 PM

aelder~ wrote: <blockquote>Another reason the damage is not satisfying is that so much of it is passive. Nobody (I think) is arguing that troubadors are not valued raiders. Raids & raid leaders respect what troubadors contribute and most raid guilds will typically try to have two--not that that's a lot, but seeing as how few of us there are it makes for sufficient demand.I think what is really at issue is that so much of our benefit is from passive buffing that we yearn to be a bit more direct in our impact. Skewing some of our group damage towards individual combat art / spell casting damage would, for example, at least make active playing more important and discourage guilds from making bard bot autofollow boxes.Happy hunting,</blockquote> Exactly. Also don't forget that the parses came from a group in a raid built around the troub. For every melee heavy unit you add to the group instead of a caster, the troub DPS drops severely. While this is true for any class in effect, it's more apparent on the troub. For instance in that group if all the casters were removed except for the conjuror, and the others were replaced with melee classes, how much would the conjuror suffer? How much would the troub suffer? But again, my main complaint with the class is that it's dull.

VericSauvari

03-27-2007, 04:05 AM

<cite>RanmaBoyType wrote:</cite><blockquote> My trouby puts out no where near the damge my conjurer does, but i feel more of an accomplishment knowing how much more i am adding to the 5 other members of my group.at the end of the day do you sit back and say "wow..i had a GREAT day today in (insert raid zone here)..I sat there with my buffs up for my group and did sub par dps while an illusionist did better utility, better buffs and better dps with less effort! Ahhh its good to be a troubador!" (i use illusionists purely because we are mini-chanters if you think about it) As far as the mez is concerned i do not see why anyone would say it is worthless, as it refreshes faster than it's duration is, meaning you can always keep one mob mezzed. mez is not useless at all.....in PvE and 1% of raiding..however it would be nice if we could mez epics as it was (with the exception of ancient teachings and healthsong) the signature difference between dirges and troubs. The charm, yeah i am dissapointed in the 14 sec duration (even more when it drops quickly) but in exp groups i have experienced mobs do not usually live that long anyway. For me about 75% of the time i get the add charmed and sick it on the target. Target dies before charm wears off. Dismiss pet, elude and it goes straight for the tank. Sounds like a good plan to me. i like our charm, however i would like our charm more if it was better with AA points into it...as it is the AA points into charm is a slap in the face. If these are all the quarrells players have with troubies then i stand by my original post. I just do not think we are as bad as everyone else does. ^_^ we are fantastic for everyone elses enjoyment except for our own..i don't want to be designated to an afk-buffbot with poor scaling debuffs/buffs and who needs to work 250% more to reach dps numbers that HEALERS and TANKS can hit with less effort. </blockquote>

VericSauvari

03-27-2007, 04:09 AM

<cite>Cuz wrote:</cite><blockquote>aelder~ wrote: <blockquote>Another reason the damage is not satisfying is that so much of it is passive. Nobody (I think) is arguing that troubadors are not valued raiders. Raids & raid leaders respect what troubadors contribute and most raid guilds will typically try to have two--not that that's a lot, but seeing as how few of us there are it makes for sufficient demand.I think what is really at issue is that so much of our benefit is from passive buffing that we yearn to be a bit more direct in our impact. Skewing some of our group damage towards individual combat art / spell casting damage would, for example, at least make active playing more important and discourage guilds from making bard bot autofollow boxes.Happy hunting,</blockquote> Exactly. Also don't forget that the parses came from a group in a raid built around the troub. For every melee heavy unit you add to the group instead of a caster, the troub DPS drops severely. While this is true for any class in effect, it's more apparent on the troub. For instance in that group if all the casters were removed except for the conjuror, and the others were replaced with melee classes, how much would the conjuror suffer? How much would the troub suffer? But again, my main complaint with the class is that it's dull. </blockquote> actually i like having a zerker or bruiser in my group purely for the dps mods. it does not help the group in the slightest (well i guess health regen from the zerker and necro/conj pets) but its still fun

Jeger_Wulf

03-27-2007, 12:02 PM

> Whether the trouby is boring is irrelevant to the fact that they do > bring alot to a good raid group. And whether they bring a lot to a good raid group is irrelevant to those of us who find them boring.> For the pickup group, the trouby might not offer much, but they still offer somethingOf course they offer something - it's just not enough to make them wanted. The pickup group starts out looking for a tank and healer. After that, they want some DPS. After that, if there is room, they will consider a bard. > My trouby puts out no where near the damge my conjurer does, but i feel > more of an accomplishment knowing how much more i am adding to the 5 > other members of my group.You sound like the type of player a troubadour was designed for. Grats! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />> The charm, yeah i am dissapointed in the 14 sec duration (even more when it drops > quickly) but in exp groups i have experienced mobs do not usually live that long > anyway. For me about 75% of the time i get the add charmed and sick it on the > target. Target dies before charm wears off. Dismiss pet, elude and it goes straight > for the tank. Sounds like a good plan to me.I think it's a bad plan. If your mobs are dying in 14 seconds, don't bother charming them. Charming them removes them from AoE affects. I find charm to be occasionally useful, but not when mobs are dying in 14 seconds.> If these are all the quarrells players have with troubies then i stand by my original post. > I just do not think we are as bad as everyone else does. ^_^ Great - keep on playing your troubie. Transfer into my guild so we will have a troubadour to take my spot when my warlock or necro gets levelled. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

RanmaBoyType

03-27-2007, 01:47 PM

So then am I correct in stating it is not that troubadors are unbalanced, but instead that the troubador community is bored playing their troubador?If i am incorrect, please state what makes the troubador "unbalanced"I want to get the big picture. And so far i have not seen anything that would make me say "Wow that really needs to be changed"And in retort to <blockquote>For instance in that group if all the casters were removed except for the conjuror, and the others were replaced with melee classes, how much would the conjuror suffer? How much would the troub suffer?</blockquote>Can you please explain to me in a raid that has available mages why anyone would do this. (not counting illusionists or coercers) what do warlocks, wizards, conji's, necros offer that would be so much better in a different group, than in one with a troubador who offers nto only the damage procs, but the deaggro as well (and other's like mana regen, etc...)One could argue that conjis are needed in MT group for the added physical mitigation. Coming from a main who is a conji this is where i always was until the new mitigation curve. Now my buff adds a fraction of a % of mit to the MT to the point where it is worthless having a conji with MT anymore. Is there any other reason a mage would want to be elsewhere. Do those benefits weigh heavier than if that same mage were grouped with a troubador?

Jeger_Wulf

03-27-2007, 03:47 PM

> If i am incorrect, please state what makes the troubador "unbalanced" I would say they are probably balanced in a raid situation.In a single group, they are not balanced. When putting together a group, I am aggressive seeking out healers, tanks and DPS. I can't ever recall thinking to myself "we better get a troubie for this instance." On level chat, I never see "PoA group looking for troubadour.", but I see them looking for other toons (healers, DPS, or tanks.)Solo, they are not balanced, but probably a lot of toons aren't balanced solo either.IMO the biggest lack of balance is in a single group. > but instead that the troubador community is bored playing their troubador?It's more "the troubador community finds their troubadour boring to play."

CelandineStar

03-27-2007, 07:53 PM

(the original post was NOT meant to account for troubadors "soloability" - i am strictly trying to look at things from a raiding standpoint)Well, I think most of the frustration in the troubador community is aimed at our "soloability" and "groupability." I'm sure my raid leader would be perfectly happy to let me /af and /afk as long as my buffs were up, and even then I would be more welcome than a few other classes. On the other hand, with a perfect group setup and in the right situation, I've parsed nearly 1k in Labs (and the Dirge beat me every time, too. grr.) I wouldn't say we're broken in raids, really, but I'm consistently out dpsed by oh... say furies, for example. You can't really argue that our utility makes up for our lack of dps when a healer (who has arguably MORE utility because they can keep people alive) has better dps than we do.As usual, though, your mileage may vary. And your dps parse is about where I usually find myself falling... maybe a bit more because I'm pretty much fabled and mastered. I don't want to top the parse. Actually, I don't even want to MAKE the parse because it means someone isn't doing their job. But I'd like to know I'm *significantly* more effective sitting at the keyboard than I am afk or even semi-afk clicking Jester's and PotM every once in a while.I mean, honestly, if you're happy with your Troub as is, then I say grats, too. I personally enjoy playing my Troub and I think it is a challenging class (maybe because it takes me 20 minutes to kill anything green and heroic :p), but I'd really like to stop being the red-headed stepchild in this game. Our buffs and damage should be significantly better than they were at level 50. We should have our unique abilities made useful again (and I'd like to point out that while Dirges can rez on raids, we can't mez or charm... how is that fair?) Even compared to other unbalanced classes (Dirges, for example) our utility is severely unbalanced and should be fixed - end of story.I want to get the big picture. And so far i have not seen anything that would make me say "Wow that really needs to be changed.There are tons of threads talking about what needs to be fixed and why. If those haven't changed your mind then I doubt the opinions of "uber raiding troubs" will help any. Assuming there are any of those and they're not just dual boxing their troub on /af. :p

Cuz

03-28-2007, 09:52 AM

You can't really get the "big picture" if you only look at raiding. It's fairly counterintuitive.

Pogopuschel

03-29-2007, 09:29 AM

VericSauvari wrote: we are fantastic for everyone elses enjoyment except for our own..i don't want to be designated to an afk-buffbot with poor scaling debuffs/buffs and who needs to work 250% more to reach dps numbers that HEALERS and TANKS can hit with less effort. Veric, I love you and I want your children. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Seriously though, I feel the exact same way. You cannot be an awful Troubadour. If you just sit there, you're still contributing enough to justify you taking up the raid spot, which is great in some way, but lame considering that you virtually have to hit yo ur buttons twice as hard to get maybe half the res ult out of your efforts when comparing yourself to any other melee class. Spider often says that we're actually casters, someone else said we're mini-chanters - and I agree, we're a bit of everything. Yet nothing we do will actually make a difference. The only way you can screw up as a Troub is running the wrong buffs or not using AE immunity when you are supposed to - and that's it. And basically the big complaint of the raiding Troubs: You play the game to PLAY it, to make a difference. Staring at the screen, or just being there for the honour of participation alone is maybe the noble motto of the olympics, but not the reason I play EQ2. I want an active role that makes me feel needed, that lets me contribute ACTIVELY. I think we don't need to debate whether a Troub is helpful for the raid - he clearly is. The most part of his usefulness in a raid however could easily be accomplished by a bot/script. I'm neither, I want to PLAY.

Spider

03-30-2007, 07:51 PM

<cite>Cuz wrote:</cite><blockquote>aelder~ wrote: <blockquote>Another reason the damage is not satisfying is that so much of it is passive. Nobody (I think) is arguing that troubadors are not valued raiders. Raids & raid leaders respect what troubadors contribute and most raid guilds will typically try to have two--not that that's a lot, but seeing as how few of us there are it makes for sufficient demand.I think what is really at issue is that so much of our benefit is from passive buffing that we yearn to be a bit more direct in our impact. Skewing some of our group damage towards individual combat art / spell casting damage would, for example, at least make active playing more important and discourage guilds from making bard bot autofollow boxes.Happy hunting,</blockquote> Exactly. Also don't forget that the parses came from a group in a raid built around the troub. For every melee heavy unit you add to the group instead of a caster, the troub DPS drops severely. While this is true for any class in effect, it's more apparent on the troub. For instance in that group if all the casters were removed except for the conjuror, and the others were replaced with melee classes, how much would the conjuror suffer? How much would the troub suffer? But again, my main complaint with the class is that it's dull. </blockquote>at that point we would most likely drop our casting proc and throw on our self buff and group haste thus increassing our usefullness to he group and boosing our dps a bit to make up for the drop

Cuz

04-01-2007, 05:12 PM

<cite>Spider wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cuz wrote:</cite><blockquote>aelder~ wrote: <blockquote>Another reason the damage is not satisfying is that so much of it is passive. Nobody (I think) is arguing that troubadors are not valued raiders. Raids & raid leaders respect what troubadors contribute and most raid guilds will typically try to have two--not that that's a lot, but seeing as how few of us there are it makes for sufficient demand.I think what is really at issue is that so much of our benefit is from passive buffing that we yearn to be a bit more direct in our impact. Skewing some of our group damage towards individual combat art / spell casting damage would, for example, at least make active playing more important and discourage guilds from making bard bot autofollow boxes.Happy hunting,</blockquote> Exactly. Also don't forget that the parses came from a group in a raid built around the troub. For every melee heavy unit you add to the group instead of a caster, the troub DPS drops severely. While this is true for any class in effect, it's more apparent on the troub. For instance in that group if all the casters were removed except for the conjuror, and the others were replaced with melee classes, how much would the conjuror suffer? How much would the troub suffer? But again, my main complaint with the class is that it's dull. </blockquote>at that point we would most likely drop our casting proc and throw on our self buff and group haste thus increassing our usefullness to he group and boosing our dps a bit to make up for the drop </blockquote> I strongly doubt it would even come close to make up for the drop. Plus I usually have the self buff up anyway.

luinnil

04-06-2007, 09:26 PM

So, as a raid leader and a primary troubador, I have to say I wish SoE would stop giving us DPS increases and focus more on support. Troubadors are already capable of way more DPS than they really need to be (DPS is boring, if I wanted to do it, I'd have been an Assassin, Ranger, Warlock, or Wizard). I parse 700-1000 on most fights, with a general group of Ranger Assassin Troubador (me) Wizard Warlock Fury I run with about 700 strength and 600 intelligence once all is said and done, and generally find my magical DPS is what I get the most oomph from. I haven't noticed a DPS drop with PotM, but maybe it's because I'm not in some uber-elite guild, or because I never use it against single mobs (it tends to kill the casters). I have Str and Wis lines filled out for Bladedance and DKtM (best buff in the game, i have no idea why anyone would say it's bad), and I have Sonics line and just enough Inspiration to max Aria and Mana Regen. I'm putting the rest in the debuffs line. I always run with Detaunt, Power, Stat, Proc, Haste. Proc, Stat, and Haste all tend to give me and my group better DPS than the self buff, Power's pretty self explanatory, and Detaunt is necessary or people fall like flies. Everyone besides me and the Fury is parsing 1200+. Admittedly, I've got top of the line gear, all but a couple Masters, so I'm on the high end of the DPS totem pole, but I find that I'm really very satisfied with Troubador DPS and would much rather have stuff like the rezzes and heals Dirges have (note, I'm not asking to steal them, just that I'd rather have more of that kind of stuff). I've got no delusions, Troubadors are absolutely necessary and desired, both in Groups and Raids (maybe your groups don't appreciate you, but most people appreciate a mastered, raid geared Troub that can do ~1k DPS in groups). Not everyone is going to get to that state, sure, but the class is far from [Removed for Content]. I bring a lot more versatility to the table in Groups, and I'm really quite satisfied there. It's just our Raid active utility that I feel is lacking. Take it for what you will <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> -Lome

Cuz

04-08-2007, 02:07 AM

Pretty much any class that is mastered, raid geared is far from gimped. I do agree though, more DPS is dull unless it's done in a more creative way than "Up skills 'x', 'y' and 'z' by s%".

Mildavyn

04-08-2007, 08:55 AM

Me personally, i would LOVE some more DPS... having said that, i play on PvP, and dont raid a huge ammount.At this point, ANY bonus would be received with glee.