The 'ethics' of buying and selling [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

TheWarparty

03-25-2007, 02:03 PM

Had a very heated discussion with a freind last night about the ethics of making money through selling things at the broker.It all boils down to one issue: Is it wrong to buy something that is for sale and then re-sell it for a highr price. (I jokingly reffer to this as 'playing the commodities market'.)The mechanics talked about were this. Say I have a harvestable item (say tuber strands) for sale for 1 silver each. I log on one day and see that over a dozen people have under-cut my price and there are several hundred strands for under 20 copper each now available. My friend says that I am morally bankrupt in that I would feel no shame in buying the cheaper stands and re-selling them at my regularly posted price. She claims I am 'playing God' with the brokers by buying low and selling high and am "cheating" the people who are selling them of thier hard work in harvesting/making stuff.I think there is nothing reprehensible in it. The seller makes his own decision on what an item is worth and I am giving them what they asked for, not mugging them in a back alley, and re-selling at what I feel is a fair price. I do not feel that if some one sells something for 2 copper that usally sells for a gold that I am ripping them off, I am not my brothers keeper.I am just wondering, and I the amoral butt head out here, or is my friend being a bit anuly retentive on this?? I doubt if anything anyone says here will change my mind, but I am curious what the EQ2 community thinks on this subject.

ShadowMunkie

03-25-2007, 02:30 PM

I don't see any reason, as to why you can't buy the cheaper items and sell them for your price, the seller makes money, you make money. Its a win/win for both players. However I do see your friends point, that your making the market at a higher value so that newer players, have to pay more. You both are right to a certain degree.

Kellin

03-25-2007, 02:31 PM

If you want to do that, I think it's fine. It's up to the buyer to determine whether your tuber strands are worth 1s to them. If not, T2 is right out the door, and there are nodes all over the place. I don't get folks who think this is unethical. You pay what you think something is worth. If the price is too high, you don't buy it. The seller prices his goods at what he thinks they're worth. If nobody agrees with him, he won't make any money. Buying out the people who undercut you is not 'playing God'. The people you are buying from get what they want, and you get what you want. I don't even care if you're doing it with something rare and you corner the market. The above applies: if you're charging too much, nobody will buy your stuff. This isn't some kind of socialist collective here, folks. That's what your guild is for. The broker is pure supply/demand, simple economics. The big difference being, in a market like harvestables, there's no such thing as a natural disaster wiping out the potential supply. My feeling is, price your stuff at what you think is fair. If I need it and I think your price is fair, I'll buy from you. If not, I'll find another way to get it or go without.

ZUES

03-25-2007, 02:31 PM

It really boils my chicken to see things like this. Where does it end? Collection quest items like the "Spinblade" for example normally sell 1pp. Well recently someone bought like 20 of them and is keeping the price at 3pp. I just ran up an alt and found shards like that, bone fragments and basically every collection. So I made a vow that from this point on I wont buy from anyone that has more than 3 of any collectable. Even if it costs me 1plat more per piece (or more) I treat those people as if they're not even an option to purchase from.Oh and the same goes for that jerk that sells an item 1-2 copper cheaper to be the cheapest. I promise you'll never get my money!1p,99g,99s,99c -or-2pYou decide!

valkyrja

03-25-2007, 02:37 PM

In a game where every item you can sell has an endless supply, I see nothing wrong with it. The fact is, if you have bought up all of an item and are charging more than people are willing to pay, they will farm it an undercut you.

Kellin

03-25-2007, 02:37 PM

But why pay even 1pp for a spinblade when you can just go to Klak'Anon and pick one up off the ground for free? It's not like any of this stuff can only be obtained from a single source. True monopolies aren't possible when anybody can pick the stuff up off the ground for free! Your guy with the 3pp spinblades may be doing okay right now, but he's got a lot of cash tied up in his inventory, and if nobody buys his stuff, he's in trouble. I undercut quite often. However, I generally only undercut by a small amount, 90s instead of 1g for example. This way, if the 1g seller buys my stuff, he'll only make 10s on it. Not much incentive there, but he's welcome to do it if he likes.

ZUES

03-25-2007, 02:52 PM

<cite>Kellin wrote:</cite><blockquote>But why pay even 1pp for a spinblade when you can just go to Klak'Anon and pick one up off the ground for free? It's not like any of this stuff can only be obtained from a single source. True monopolies aren't possible when anybody can pick the stuff up off the ground for free! Your guy with the 3pp spinblades may be doing okay right now, but he's got a lot of cash tied up in his inventory, and if nobody buys his stuff, he's in trouble. I undercut quite often. However, I generally only undercut by a small amount, 90s instead of 1g for example. This way, if the 1g seller buys my stuff, he'll only make 10s on it. Not much incentive there, but he's welcome to do it if he likes. </blockquote>Well the question you have to ask yourself is whats your time worth? I got so many quests I want to do and honestly dont want to farm spinblades in a grey zone for four hours when I can make 2pp an hour in Bonemire.Your right in saying he's not the single source however, my server is in need of some level 70s. I would rather have collections affordable and have newbs buy their way to 30 and learn the game from there on out than I would having them farm up to 30 for a month or more and only contribute to the problem. I've never played a healer in my life and bought mine with collections up to 32ish. How many groups do you think I would have gotten in my 10s and 20s?Undercutting is fine and I do it to. The lowest price sells and I loot too much stuff to sell it all to a mercant. So being the cheapest is crucial imo. But like you I leave a respectable margin between my price and the next highest players price.Another thing I hate is people that change the market. An example would be a level 70 master spell selling for 2pp. You know how it got that way? At some point there were 10 of those masters and here's what happened....Johnny - 2pp Joeshmoe - 2pp 95gJanedoe - 3ppkiller - 3pp 50glooksie - 3pp 75gIwannabeajerk - 4pp <----------conjy - 9pp 50gpally - 9pp 75gzerker - 10ppillusionist - 10ppPlease dont do this people. Your intentions were you needed some quick cash to buy a master or mount but in turn you changed the economy. A level 70 master should never cost the same as an adept 3!

kenm

03-25-2007, 03:03 PM

<cite>ZUES wrote:</cite><blockquote>So I made a vow that from this point on I wont buy from anyone that has more than 3 of any collectable. Even if it costs me 1plat more per piece (or more) I treat those people as if they're not even an option to purchase from.</blockquote>Now that's just silly, of *any* collectable? When I was harvesting DoF for shinies to finish my mystic moppet I had upwards of 20 of certain collection items on the broker. I also farmed castle mistmoore candles for awhile and have a crapload of all of them on the broker except the black one, which is just incredibly rare. I'm also the only one selling them on my server, not because I buy cheaper ones and resell them, but because nobody else wants to go through the hassle of harvesting them. <img src="/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Not buying from them, despite them being cheapest, just because you assume they're buying up cheaper ones is only really hurting yourself.

ZUES

03-25-2007, 03:18 PM

Well I and my guildies have decided to take a stand against it. We had a long debate in our guild forums about it.Think of the United States with it's terrorism policy. Under NO circumstances will they give in to the demands of terrorists. How many terrorists or hijackers hit US planes, buses and transportaion any more? ZERO!So I'm sorry if it hurts individual honest peeps but it's just wrong and I wont support it.

joeygopher

03-25-2007, 03:30 PM

So... the next logical step must be a futures market. I want in on the ground floor!!

liveja

03-25-2007, 03:57 PM

<cite>TheWarparty wrote:</cite><blockquote>My friend says that I am morally bankrupt in that I would feel no shame in buying the cheaper stands and re-selling them at my regularly posted price. </blockquote> <img src="/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I think that's going entirely too far with a video game. Your friend has issues.

liveja

03-25-2007, 04:07 PM

<cite>ZUES wrote:</cite><blockquote>I got so many quests I want to do and honestly dont want to farm spinblades in a grey zone for four hours when I can make 2pp an hour in Bonemire.IF that's the case, I fail to see why you're concerned about the price of the spinblades. Spend a couple hours farming Bonemire, buy your spinblade, have done with it. Or, would you rather have the person put up 20 spinblades at 1pp each, when everyone else is selling them for 3pp? O, wait, looking at the very next paragraph, it would appear you're against that idea.Another thing I hate is people that change the market. An example would be a level 70 master spell selling for 2pp. You know how it got that way? At some point there were 10 of those masters and here's what happened....I'll undercut ruthlessly if I feel like it, & I couldn't care less what you think. I want fast cash in my pocket, & someone is going to be very happy I priced an M1 so low. Sheesh. Some people complain because people sell M1 spells too freekin' high, & now others are coming along, complaining because someone else cut the floor out of the market & set prices that people can afford without buying plat. Ya just can't win around here <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I'm glad there are others around that think like me, otherwise, I'd never be able to have as many masters as I do.Seriously, if you don't like it, don't pay my low prices; go spend the extra plats on someone else's EXACT SAME ITEM, & feel all warm & fuzzy that you did your part to stand up against "changing the market". After all, it's your plats you're spending, not mine.</blockquote>

Myedved

03-25-2007, 04:09 PM

All players are eventually limited to the number of broker slots they have to sell stuff. How they choose to allocate those slots is totally up to them, and it should be. If you want to buy cheap tubers and repost them, that's fine. The impact you can have on all players is really limited to the number of your broker box slots. Do what you want with them.Freedom baby, Yeah!

sayitaintso

03-25-2007, 04:29 PM

I thought this was going to be a post about the ethics of selleing in game coin for real $$... Buying low and selling high is the core of capitalism. there is no ethical arguement to be had. the whole purpose of the broker system is for people to do exactly what you are debating. You sell items that people put on the broker to under cut higher prices, then raise the price and put it back on the seller. Supply and demand are the rules...there is no other way....anything else would be price controls....which basically is a form of socialism. In the real world this doesn't work because no company is going to continue to make a product if they can't profit from it...Hence why gasoline prices continue to rise, with no government intervention. As soon as the government tries to put price controls on gasoline, the oil companies slow production and there are shortages...It's simple...if you want the economy to work, you have to follow the rules that allow it to do so....

quamdar

03-25-2007, 04:39 PM

yeah i don't see a problem, if someone is trying to undercut to me that means they need plat quick. so if you are willing to wait for the item to sell at a higher price and a profit to you then that person gets their quick plat, you make a bit of money for your investment, and the person that eventually buys it from you gets the item they want. you aren't twisting anyone's arm to buy your product at the increased price so they obviously agree it is worth that price if they buy it.

metacell

03-26-2007, 04:39 AM

In buying all the cheap tuber strands on the market, you create an artificial shortage. You take advantage not of the other sellers, but of the other buyers, who actually need those tuber strands and could have bought them for 20 cp. You earn money by manipulating the market instead of producing something useful. The extreme case would be where you buy all pieces of a certain item (say, all Adepts and Masters of the spell Void Distortion) to become the only supplier. That would be almost like extortion. A market only works well when there are many players competing with each other, selling identical or comparable items.

Novusod

03-26-2007, 05:06 AM

I do that all the time with the such and such SoS gems that are needed for relic gear. Once I bought up the entire market of one gem for five gold. I then reposted a stack of 20 of those gems for 40 gold each and destroyed the rest. Several of them sold before people started undercutting me again.

Raidi Sovin'faile

03-26-2007, 06:41 AM

Aquarius@Runnyeye wrote: <blockquote>In buying all the cheap tuber strands on the market, you create an artificial shortage. You take advantage not of the other sellers, but of the other buyers, who actually need those tuber strands and could have bought them for 20 cp. You earn money by manipulating the market instead of producing something useful. The extreme case would be where you buy all pieces of a certain item (say, all Adepts and Masters of the spell Void Distortion) to become the only supplier. That would be almost like extortion. A market only works well when there are many players competing with each other, selling identical or comparable items. </blockquote>This is only true if you take the Broker as the only source, and assuming that "that moment in time" is the only moment in consideration.There is no problem with this situation because of one main thing: everyone has equal and limitless access to everything in the game.Now, it might take a person a long time to get it themselves, at which point it "becomes worthwhile" to buy it from the broker. However, the broker is the end result, not the only one. You can harvest tubers yourself. You can make Adept 3s yourself if you level up a crafter. You can get the drop yourself by farming appropriately level'd mobs over and over.This market works, because I can take a look at it, see that it would literally cost my 30g to buy all the tubers I'd need to finish getting one pristine of each spell for the rest of my tier on my sage, and decide to go harvest the 300 roots myself. This is a true story, I actually did this not that long ago.And this is why there is no ethical problem with anything you do on the market, because it isn't an ethical issue until you get into true monopoly situations. A true monopoly simply cannot happen in a game that has an endless supply and full access to everything for everyone. In real life, you can't go and get 99.999999999% of the stuff you want, for no cost and only effort... but in this game, you can.. all it takes is more time. And as for "don't buy from anyone that has a stack of 3 or more", that's just silliness (sorry if I sound like I'm belittling you, but I can have my opinion about your opinion). Sure, maybe if it's with some suspiciously rare items, and there's virtually no others being sold on the market... but if there's tons of others being sold? The price is still reasonably low and not absurdly high? It's an item that I've gotten so many times that I've thrown them out to make room in my bags?What... do you not buy from ANYONE when you look for Pristine Shards? Most people end up with at least half a dozen of each by the time they've gone through their first 40 levels, unless they purposely avoid harvesting shinies. And that's just the extreme cases... what about grubs? Cracked Dark Elf Bones? There's a ton of collections and other items out there that can be gained en masse. This game is all about the "common" items and the "rare" items... it's normal to encounter more than 3 over even a short period of time, let alone someone specifically harvesting. And don't forget the Guild sellers. Some people sell for the guild so they can save up and get their folks horses, or cloak design changes, etc. Selling stacks of rares that've been harvested by the 30-odd guild members is not unheard of whatsoever, especially since they seem to drop on a lot of guild raids, and other raid situations too. These people you can see will have a lot of "stacks" of things, so you can't even rule out these folks either. And of course they will sell the lowest... they are the GUILD seller, so they will be fairly dedicated to it and probably watch the market a lot to make sure theirs get sold quickly. When you have stacks, you don't want to hold out that the 20 or so below you will eventually be bought so you can finally sell yours.The only person you are making any kind of impact on by not buying from them is yourself. They won't even know they lost any kind of sale unless you waste time sending mails to each and every person you "stick it to", nor would most of them even care since there are more than enough others out there that don't share your view.

Spyderbite

03-26-2007, 07:23 AM

I took to Harvesting as soon as I started the game last September. Harvesting every single node & shiney in my path financed my way into a 3 bedroom house, horse and my soon to be completed full set of T4 imbued armor. So, needless to say, I'm on the broker constantly. Adjusting my prices as needed and removing items that aren't in demand. e.g. the stuff that sits there and collects dust for a week priced at 1 cp. Playing the market is an intentional game mechanic and hardly unethical. I have my Series 7 & 8 certifications and have also traded for a large brokerage firm in the past. Buying up all the shares of stock is not immoral, unethical or "playing god" unless that buyer has some sort of affiliation with the company they are purchasing the stock on. aka.. Insider Trading. Now, as far as EQ2 is concerned. It would only be unethical if the person cornering the Broker had exclusive access to a resource/item. For example, he/she was the only one who could harvest wood on a server. But, even then, "squeezing the little man" for an outrageous price will only come back to bite the seller as his inventory sits dormant on the shelves. I do exactly as others have stated when I'm undercut by a ridiculous amount. I like to think that I know what the normal price range is on certain items that I sell regularly. So, when I put my apples on the broker for 20 sp, the max price I know they will sell for, and somebody throws 10 more up at 2 cp each. You better believe I'm going to buy them up and resell them. What's the alternative? Selling mine for the same price when I know the minimum sale price is around 10 sp? I don't think so. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> The Broker was designed to encourage a competitive market. Ethics don't even come in to play. If somebody wants to toss a feysteel cluster up for 6 pp.. more power to them. If I really need it.. I'll just come back later in the day when more are put on the broker at a much more reasonable price. The original seller can either cut his price to compete.. or sit on his merchandise. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

PorcupineTr

03-26-2007, 11:07 AM

There's no 'God' aspect of economics. Welcome to free market economy.

Und3rt0w

03-26-2007, 11:16 AM

<cite>ZUES wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kellin wrote:</cite><blockquote>But why pay even 1pp for a spinblade when you can just go to Klak'Anon and pick one up off the ground for free? It's not like any of this stuff can only be obtained from a single source. True monopolies aren't possible when anybody can pick the stuff up off the ground for free! Your guy with the 3pp spinblades may be doing okay right now, but he's got a lot of cash tied up in his inventory, and if nobody buys his stuff, he's in trouble. I undercut quite often. However, I generally only undercut by a small amount, 90s instead of 1g for example. This way, if the 1g seller buys my stuff, he'll only make 10s on it. Not much incentive there, but he's welcome to do it if he likes. </blockquote>Well the question you have to ask yourself is whats your time worth? I got so many quests I want to do and honestly dont want to farm spinblades in a grey zone for four hours when I can make 2pp an hour in Bonemire.Your right in saying he's not the single source however, my server is in need of some level 70s. I would rather have collections affordable and have newbs buy their way to 30 and learn the game from there on out than I would having them farm up to 30 for a month or more and only contribute to the problem. I've never played a healer in my life and bought mine with collections up to 32ish. How many groups do you think I would have gotten in my 10s and 20s?Undercutting is fine and I do it to. The lowest price sells and I loot too much stuff to sell it all to a mercant. So being the cheapest is crucial imo. But like you I leave a respectable margin between my price and the next highest players price.Another thing I hate is people that change the market. An example would be a level 70 master spell selling for 2pp. You know how it got that way? At some point there were 10 of those masters and here's what happened....Johnny - 2pp Joeshmoe - 2pp 95gJanedoe - 3ppkiller - 3pp 50glooksie - 3pp 75gIwannabeajerk - 4pp <----------conjy - 9pp 50gpally - 9pp 75gzerker - 10ppillusionist - 10ppPlease dont do this people. Your intentions were you needed some quick cash to buy a master or mount but in turn you changed the economy. A level 70 master should never cost the same as an adept 3! </blockquote> In my mind, it's the guy that posted it at 10pp to begin with that's the jerk. There's no reason a Master that is only a few percentages better than an Adept III should cost 10x more.

liveja

03-26-2007, 11:17 AM

Aquarius@Runnyeye wrote: <blockquote>In buying all the cheap tuber strands on the market, you create an artificial shortage. </blockquote>That's only possible in a world where shortage of cheap tuber strands exists. But no such shortage ever can, will, or could occur in EQ2, unless people simply stopped harvesting root nodes.

kenm

03-26-2007, 11:22 AM

<cite>Und3rt0w wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ZUES wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kellin wrote:</cite><blockquote>But why pay even 1pp for a spinblade when you can just go to Klak'Anon and pick one up off the ground for free? It's not like any of this stuff can only be obtained from a single source. True monopolies aren't possible when anybody can pick the stuff up off the ground for free! Your guy with the 3pp spinblades may be doing okay right now, but he's got a lot of cash tied up in his inventory, and if nobody buys his stuff, he's in trouble. I undercut quite often. However, I generally only undercut by a small amount, 90s instead of 1g for example. This way, if the 1g seller buys my stuff, he'll only make 10s on it. Not much incentive there, but he's welcome to do it if he likes. </blockquote>Well the question you have to ask yourself is whats your time worth? I got so many quests I want to do and honestly dont want to farm spinblades in a grey zone for four hours when I can make 2pp an hour in Bonemire.Your right in saying he's not the single source however, my server is in need of some level 70s. I would rather have collections affordable and have newbs buy their way to 30 and learn the game from there on out than I would having them farm up to 30 for a month or more and only contribute to the problem. I've never played a healer in my life and bought mine with collections up to 32ish. How many groups do you think I would have gotten in my 10s and 20s?Undercutting is fine and I do it to. The lowest price sells and I loot too much stuff to sell it all to a mercant. So being the cheapest is crucial imo. But like you I leave a respectable margin between my price and the next highest players price.Another thing I hate is people that change the market. An example would be a level 70 master spell selling for 2pp. You know how it got that way? At some point there were 10 of those masters and here's what happened....Johnny - 2pp Joeshmoe - 2pp 95gJanedoe - 3ppkiller - 3pp 50glooksie - 3pp 75gIwannabeajerk - 4pp <----------conjy - 9pp 50gpally - 9pp 75gzerker - 10ppillusionist - 10ppPlease dont do this people. Your intentions were you needed some quick cash to buy a master or mount but in turn you changed the economy. A level 70 master should never cost the same as an adept 3! </blockquote> In my mind, it's the guy that posted it at 10pp to begin with that's the jerk. There's no reason a Master that is only a few percentages better than an Adept III should cost 10x more.</blockquote>Other than, you know, masters are the best spell quality you can get and money is so obscenely easy to make? I had no issue paying 80 plat for my final master (And it was a tier 6 one.), and 30-60 for several other various ones before that. Level 70's and t6 ones are the most rare of all the masters, and 10p is already cheap as heck. Really now, I'm fully mastered out and still have over 300p with nothing to buy. If people didn't price masters way higher than adept IIIs the entire economy would be completely [Removed for Content] with money being completely meaningless and everybody just practically giving masters away to the first person that wants it.

Stuge

03-26-2007, 11:35 AM

Kenman@Najena wrote: <blockquote>[...]and money is so obscenely easy to make? Really now, I'm fully mastered out and still have over 300p with nothing to buy. <snip> </blockquote> One of these days I'm going to figure out where this fountain of plat is. Seriously. Seems like every time a market/economy related thread crops up there is always one or two people who are somehow just swimming in coin and deleting plat because they have so much it's becoming an encumbrance issue (exaggeration, I know). One time I got lucky on a Master drop that i sold for 20pp. That was the most money I had ever had at a single time and it went down the drain pretty quickly buying spell upgrades for myself. ------------------ Iwannabeajerk - 4pp <---------- conjy - 9pp 50g pally - 9pp 75g zerker - 10pp illusionist - 10pp ------------------ ^^^ The way I see it is if Conjy, Pally, Zerker and Illusionist had reasonable prices for what they were selling, the spell wouldn't be up on that broker list for very long. It would be scribed in someone's spellbook. If I saw one, maybe two of a master that I was trying to sell on the broker for a high price, I might try going near it in price. However if I saw 4 or 5 listed in the same range just sitting there, my first thought would be "Well it's obviously not moving for that price range. Those people are delusional and a few plat less might be more reasonable for members of that master's class".

Bozidar

03-26-2007, 11:41 AM

no offense.. but your friend is kind of an idiot.

liveja

03-26-2007, 11:43 AM

<cite>Stugein wrote:</cite><blockquote>One of these days I'm going to figure out where this fountain of plat is.</blockquote>Farming shinies FTW!

UlteriorModem

03-26-2007, 11:56 AM

Ill post the gratituitous "Its a free market economy" with the key word being free post.Buy / Sell, Supply / Demand.... pretty much sums it up.

Morgane

03-26-2007, 11:59 AM

Kaisoku@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote>And as for "don't buy from anyone that has a stack of 3 or more", that's just silliness (sorry if I sound like I'm belittling you, but I can have my opinion about your opinion). Sure, maybe if it's with some suspiciously rare items, and there's virtually no others being sold on the market... but if there's tons of others being sold? The price is still reasonably low and not absurdly high? It's an item that I've gotten so many times that I've thrown them out to make room in my bags?</blockquote>I have to agree with you, Kaisoku. I don't farm, don't use bots or anything other than the good old fashioned harvesting method.... running around and hitting the "F" key alot. In a few hours of playing I can have over a hundred roots, elm, deer meat, etc. If I'm lucky, I'll have a few Rares, too. Over half the stuff I harvest I don't use in tradeskilling... what else am I to do with it? I'd be stupid not to put my 50 raw carrots on the market and you can bet your next five rare harvests that I'm gonna try to put it at the lowest price possible, and why shouldn't I? Now those folks who put of thousands of harvest at once and hundreds or Rare items at once... I don't buy from them because they are obviously farming. I'd rather buy from someone who does it like me... goes out, harvests the "legal" way and when they get 50 of something or 30 of something, go put it up for sale on the broker. The "don't buy from anyone selling more than 3 of something" isn't a very good idea if you ask me but hey, it's your plat. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Morgane

03-26-2007, 12:20 PM

<cite>Stugein wrote:</cite><blockquote>One of these days I'm going to figure out where this fountain of plat is. Seriously. Seems like every time a market/economy related thread crops up there is always one or two people who are somehow just swimming in coin and deleting plat because they have so much it's becoming an encumbrance issue (exaggeration, I know). One time I got lucky on a Master drop that i sold for 20pp. That was the most money I had ever had at a single time and it went down the drain pretty quickly buying spell upgrades for myself. </blockquote> yeah, no kidding. I play several hours almost every night and most of that time is spent harvesting, selling on the broker and making tradeskill items to sell. It took me quite awhile to save up enough plat to buy a horse. Right now my lvl 18 wizard has about 6 plat in the bank and that's from harvesting my butt off and not doing many quests. How in the world are you guys getting so much plat you just can't spend it all is beyond me. I must be missing something.

liveja

03-26-2007, 12:26 PM

<cite>Jihrun wrote:</cite><blockquote>How in the world are you guys getting so much plat you just can't spend it all is beyond me. I must be missing something. </blockquote>When you're already well-geared, & your house is as decorated as you want it to be, & you're 70th level with 100 APs, it's pretty easy to not be able to find anything worth buying.I still have some Treasured gear & Ad1 spells & only 72 APs, so I'm a ways from that plateau, but you know what? I'm close enough to it that it's already gotten difficult for me to find something I can justify spending plats on. The simple fact is that I am now bringing in money faster than I can spend it.

Morgane

03-26-2007, 12:36 PM

<cite>livejazz wrote:</cite><blockquote>I still have some Treasured gear & Ad1 spells & only 72 APs, so I'm a ways from that plateau, but you know what? I'm close enough to it that it's already gotten difficult for me to find something I can justify spending lats on. The simple fact is that I am now bringing in money faster than I can spend it. </blockquote>Well that would kinda suck. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> If you ever feel like donating to the poor, lemme know! LOL <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

liveja

03-26-2007, 12:43 PM

<cite>Jihrun wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you ever feel like donating to the poor, lemme know! LOL <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>The "excess" goes to the guild bank <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />At a certain point, though, you almost have to start delving into alt twinkage. I'm saving up for horses for mine.

Melli

03-26-2007, 02:28 PM

<cite>Jihrun wrote:</cite><blockquote><a href="mailto:Kaisoku@Mistmoore" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Kaisoku@Mistmoore</a> wrote: Now those folks who put of thousands of harvest at once and hundreds or Rare items at once... I don't buy from them because they are obviously farming. I'd rather buy from someone who does it like me... goes out, harvests the "legal" way and when they get 50 of something or 30 of something, go put it up for sale on the broker. </blockquote>I'm curious - why do some many people find farming tradeskill components offensive? How is it not "legal" to harvest just for the sake of harvesting? It seems to me it would be just as viable a path to be a harvester as it would be to be a tradeskiller or an adventurer. A tradeskiller makes stuff to sell, an adventurer loots stuff to sell, a harvester collects stuff to sell - where is the difference? And BTW, before someone says "you're obviously just a farmer yourself..." - I do harvest a LOT to support four tradeskillers and because I just find it enjoyable. I just don't see where it isn't fair or "legal" for someone to harvest and sell if that is what they wish to do. If I don't want to pay for their stuff, I can make the choice to go out and get it myself.

Malchore

03-26-2007, 02:40 PM

Kaisoku@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote>And this is why there is no ethical problem with anything you do on the market, because it isn't an ethical issue until you get into true monopoly situations. A true monopoly simply cannot happen in a game that has an endless supply and full access to everything for everyone. In real life, you can't go and get 99.999999999% of the stuff you want, for no cost and only effort... but in this game, you can.. all it takes is more time.</blockquote>I generally agree with what is written here by Kaisoku, except that it *is* possible to sustain a monopoly for a while. You're right that everyone has an endless supply of everything all the time, however the monopolizer could continue to buy up all the competitors. Everytime someone comes to the market with a new item and undercuts the monopolizer, the monopolizer (quickly) buys the item and resells it for high prices.This is sustainable only as long as the monopolizer has enough money and inventory space.An easy way to combat monopolizers like this is to price your items at 80% the price of the monopolizer. The monopolizer potentialy becomes a guareneeted buyer - a reliable customer you can count on to buy your items - and they'll quickly run out of money. At which point the monopolizer has to lower their price to sells items for money and everyone else can compete again.

ZUES

03-26-2007, 02:42 PM

What their referring to is a harvesting bot. It's a program that runs your toon from node to node and harvests them while your afk. Bot programs are fairly common but against the EULA that sony has set in place. Their are many types of bots and some even level you in tradeskills or adv skills while your sleeping. Some can sit in one spot and farm a named. Most of the time you'll see them with names that are not easily remembered. The reason for that is so nobody can report them without having visual contact and actually typing it properly.This technique is commonly used by those companies that sell in game currency for real money.

Morgane

03-26-2007, 02:59 PM

<cite>Melli wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jihrun wrote:</cite><blockquote><a href="mailto:Kaisoku@Mistmoore" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Kaisoku@Mistmoore</a> wrote: Now those folks who put of thousands of harvest at once and hundreds or Rare items at once... I don't buy from them because they are obviously farming. I'd rather buy from someone who does it like me... goes out, harvests the "legal" way and when they get 50 of something or 30 of something, go put it up for sale on the broker. </blockquote>I'm curious - why do some many people find farming tradeskill components offensive? How is it not "legal" to harvest just for the sake of harvesting? It seems to me it would be just as viable a path to be a harvester as it would be to be a tradeskiller or an adventurer. A tradeskiller makes stuff to sell, an adventurer loots stuff to sell, a harvester collects stuff to sell - where is the difference? And BTW, before someone says "you're obviously just a farmer yourself..." - I do harvest a LOT to support four tradeskillers and because I just find it enjoyable. I just don't see where it isn't fair or "legal" for someone to harvest and sell if that is what they wish to do. If I don't want to pay for their stuff, I can make the choice to go out and get it myself.</blockquote>Hmm. Maybe I'm using the wrong word. I've always thought "farming" meant that someone was "cheating" by using bots or whatever. I don't have the mad skillz of a computer programmer... I just play the game. If someone is traveling around and harvesting by double-click or "F" button or even a macro, that's fine. I see absolutely nothing wrong with it. I do it myself. By "farming" i meant people who use "cheats". Sorry... that may be the wrong word for it. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

TheBu

03-26-2007, 03:03 PM

no it is not fair. someone buying up a market is not offering added value to the items, but is just making someone else have to paymore and preventing other who can not afford the new price from getting the said item. but this is how real life works. . and how the game works.as poruoineTRee saidPorcupineTree wrote: <blockquote>There's no 'God' aspect of economics. Welcome to free market economy. </blockquote>

Bozidar

03-26-2007, 03:04 PM

Jihrun wrote: <blockquote>Hmm. Maybe I'm using the wrong word. I've always thought "farming" meant that someone was "cheating" by using bots or whatever. </blockquote> Farming == someone who spends a lot of time doing the same thing to get resources of some kind in order to advance in the game.Botter == someone who automates some form of farming, be it with one controlled toon and 5 automated ones, an automated harvester, an automated named-getter, automated crafter, ect..

Karlen

03-26-2007, 03:06 PM

>>>I'm curious - why do some many people find farming tradeskill components offensive? How is it not "legal" to harvest just for the sake of harvesting? It seems to me it would be just as viable a path to be a harvester as it would be to be a tradeskiller or an adventurer. A tradeskiller makes stuff to sell, an adventurer loots stuff to sell, a harvester collects stuff to sell - where is the difference?<<< I only started crafting this past Christmas. Prior to that, I harvested in areas where I was hunting to sell to crafters to augment my income. Now I do woodworking and buy most of my components on the broker. I am now reaching the point where I can craft using components that can be harvested in my hunting areas (T7). I don't see anything offensive about selling components on the broker or buying them from the broker.

Sotaudi

03-26-2007, 03:09 PM

It is always amusing to see people arguing that the free market covers all sins, so to speak. The problem with that position is that the concept of a free market setting a fair value only works when the market is truly free. While you can correctly argue that people buying a truly underpriced item and selling it for a normal market value are performing a service by creating stability in the market, you cannot argue that there is nothing unethical about the following:Novusod wrote: <blockquote>I do that all the time with the such and such SoS gems that are needed for relic gear. Once I bought up the entire market of one gem for five gold. I then reposted a stack of 20 of those gems for 40 gold each and destroyed the rest. Several of them sold before people started undercutting me again. </blockquote>Movusod intefered with the free market mechansims by removing all the supply and offering it back at only his price. He created a temporary monopoly, and in RL, doing what he did is illegal even if the market will eventually adjust. He further intefered with the free market mechanisms by destroying some of the supply, further creating an artificial shortage. Again, in RL, this is an illegal business practice. So you cannot argue that what he did was not unethical. There is always some [Removed for Content] who will pay an over inflated price -- in game, often because he has an artifically high money supply because he purchased plat from a plat seller -- people can often easily profit from these practices, but the fact that they have profited does not justify the practice.Unfortunately, the alternatives to the free market are usually worse. When some market "overlord" sets prices from only a buyer's point of view, sellers often find it not worth their time to sell, and supply dries up. When prices are set from only a seller's perspective, prices are too high, and demand dries up. The only good way to set fair prices is to allow sellers to set prices balanced by what buyers are willing to pay -- i.e., let the free market do its thing. But just because the free market is the best way to set prices does not mean that everything is fair game.What Novusod did was unethical. Just because he profited from it does not change that fact. He violated the freedom of the market, so arguing that what he did was okay because "its a free market" is ludicrous. And the fact that the market will eventually adjust does not change that. That is like saying that someone did not assault you because the bruises will eventually heal.

Morgane

03-26-2007, 03:18 PM

<cite>ZUES wrote:</cite><blockquote>What their referring to is a harvesting bot. It's a program that runs your toon from node to node and harvests them while your afk. Bot programs are fairly common but against the EULA that sony has set in place. Their are many types of bots and some even level you in tradeskills or adv skills while your sleeping. Some can sit in one spot and farm a named. Most of the time you'll see them with names that are not easily remembered. The reason for that is so nobody can report them without having visual contact and actually typing it properly.This technique is commonly used by those companies that sell in game currency for real money.</blockquote>Thanks. THAT is actually what I meant. "Farming" was indeed the wrong word... my bad.See, I assume that when I see 1500 "Blackended Iron Clusters" up for sale on the broker for much less that someone like you or I (who do a Happy Dance when we find those valuable rare harvests) who might save two or three before we sell but we'll get them up on the broker pretty quickly because it means 20g to 30g for us... I assume that those folks are using some method which just isn't "legal".... I mean, how does one actually GET that many Blackened Iron Clusters the legal way? Maybe I'm incorrect in assuming that and if so, I'm sorry. I'd just rather give my business to someone who appears to be harvesting "legally".

StevusX

03-26-2007, 03:18 PM

@ SotaudiYou have it absolutely 100% spot on.Buying up and then reselling is unethical and has nothing whatsoever to do with a free market economy.It is in fact the reverse. It is artificially creating a monoply at the resellers price.And it is quite possible for a reseller to keep doing this for some while.Resellers have NOT taken the time to harvest, to kill mobs, etc to find those items.They are simply taking advantage of other players time and effort.Dont buy from resellers. Buy from people playing the game and trying to raise funds in doing so. Resellers /bah

Bozidar

03-26-2007, 03:34 PM

Grimheart@Runnyeye wrote: <blockquote>@ SotaudiYou have it absolutely 100% spot on.Buying up and then reselling is unethical and has nothing whatsoever to do with a free market economy.</blockquote> but that's not what he said, at all.He said that destroying product interfered with the free market, not selling at a higher price.And he's wrong about the destroying too, i think.If Person 1 puts X number of Y on the market for price Z, and person 2 buys them.. then the market is working! Person 2 now has cash in his pocket, the amount that he deemed was his market prices. So if Joe Blow is selling tomatoes on the corner for $.05, and Antonio down the street sees that his one's selling for $.50 will never sell with that supply, he can invest the $30 bucks to buy Joe out, so that he can make $75 profit on his tomaotes.There's nothing illegal about that. There's no monolopy. No one is preventing Joe from going out and growing more tomatoes. No one is preventing Sophia, who loves juicy tomaotes, from buying them from Antonio's price, or in fact growing them her self as well. EQ2 resources are constantly replenishing. You can never EVER have a monolopy on them.Only lazy people who don't want to go out and get their own could ever consider someone selling on the broker to hold a monolopy on something in game that can be attained through the same methods as the person selling them (or whoever THEY bought them from).

Kaalenarc

03-26-2007, 03:39 PM

Well - I dont know about "monopolies" in the game or how SOE views em - but maybe this will give you some perspective. Im an armorsmith. There is someone who I presume to be a bot making and selling armor in competition with me on the broker. I suspect this person is a bot as he is a lvl 63 armorer - his character is 3 or 4 weeks old and he has lvl I dont know 15 or so adventuring. Additionally - in those three weeks, he has also managed to gather about 50 Cobalts so that he can sell rare armor. He has no alts. Randomly generated name (it seems)For the past few weeks, He and I have been undercutting each other, almost daily. Frustrated, and wanting the advantage, I added him to my friends list. He logs in for , I kid you not, 1minute 30 seconds, bumps all his prices down always exactly 1g less than mine , and logs out. Whereupon I had been simply going right back and lowering mine, getting the sale and replacing the stock. Eventually - by buying all of the lower priced cobalts on the market, and selectively adjusting pricing , he dropped his price to well below the cost of the average cobalt. When he did that - I bought and resold his stuff and made a tidy profit. THAT is a free market economy. I didnt buy ALL the cobalt, nor did I buy ALL the armor, but I did buy enough to ensure that my business is well supplied and can continue to make profits. Its not a monopoly because anyone can go harvest cobalt all day long and undercut me. If he artifically impacts the market by lowering his price to below the costs of the materials (known in economics I think as a "loss leader&quot<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> then I have every right to buy it and resell it.Simply put, why would I pay 84g for a cobalt cluster plus the costs of mats plus my time and effort to try and sell it at a profit when he is willing to sell the same completed piece for 50g? Supply and demand. If he is foolish enough to either run some kind of auto price lowering macro, or be dumb enough to sell it that cheap, and Im in the armor business - why shouldnt I?

Kellin

03-26-2007, 03:39 PM

<cite>Sotaudi wrote:</cite><blockquote>What Novusod did was unethical. Just because he profited from it does not change that fact. He violated the freedom of the market, so arguing that what he did was okay because "its a free market" is ludicrous. And the fact that the market will eventually adjust does not change that. That is like saying that someone did not assault you because the bruises will eventually heal.</blockquote>Depends on your ethics. Just because this is illegal in the real world does not mean it's against the rules in the game. Not that I'm condoning what he did; it was a deliberate attempt to soak people for a lot of money.However, nobody was forced to buy at his price. Nothing on the broker is a must-have to play the game. The item he was selling still dropped in game, and a few hours in SoS (or even asking in /ooc in the zone) would have gotten anyone enough of the gem for their needs. The ones who paid his price probably griped to themselves (and possibly friends) about it, but they hit that "buy" button anyway.We aren't talking about real world laws, here. It's too complicated. Whether or not a cosmetics company uses animal testing or that brokerage firm did some insider trading; these are not issues that have any meaning in the context of EQ2.It's very simple. Nothing on the broker is necessary for you to play the game. You could buy all your stuff from the in-game merchants, live on your own self-harvested, self-made items. Your ability to play the game would not be impacted much at all.The broker is a convenience. It's another way to 'play'. It has a very simple, straightforward set of rules, and nothing in those rules says you can't buy low and sell high.

Kaalenarc

03-26-2007, 03:41 PM

exactly. And you have free will. Dont buy from people you dont want to buy from.

Delameko Stone

03-26-2007, 04:52 PM

You know what annoys me the most... ...people that put items on the broker for 1c - sell it to the bloody vendor already!!! I will gladly buy up all their stock and resell it at a higher price. Not everyone that is trying to make money on the broker is in it to exploit people. Some would actually like to, you know, buy stuff themselves, and they need money to do so.

Morgane

03-26-2007, 05:16 PM

Thelassius@Splitpaw wrote: <blockquote> You know what annoys me the most... ...people that put items on the broker for 1c - sell it to the bloody vendor already!!! </blockquote> Only thing I sell for 1c is deer meat, coffee beans, etc. I can have 100's of them in a few hours.... so does everyone else. Vendors don't buy them, so the only option is to use them in tradeskilling (I use SOME of it but still have tons left), destroy them or sell'em at the broker. When you go to sell and you see everyone else selling for 1c, what else are you supposed to do? Gotta put'em up for 1c, hope they sell in a reasonable amount of time and if not, destroy or give to someone who really really likes deer steaks. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

KBern

03-26-2007, 05:24 PM

There really are no ethics when it comes to the EQ2 market....I stress the distinction EQ2 market so don't try to argue the point with real world market examples.Unless the seller is scamming someone and misrepresenting what they are selling, they can price it for whatever they want.If a buyer wants to buy the too expensive item, great. If a buyer wants to buy the too cheap item and re-sell it, great.The original seller is getting what they want, the new buyer is taking a risk of selling it for a higher price and possibly never sell it, or they are being smart and making a profit off of it.If people want to partake in charity, then give the items away to people you think need them...don't expect to put the item on the broker for cheap and not have people buy it for whatever reason.The only pet peeve I really have in regards to the market are when people try to profit off of others ignorance. ie selling NPC bought items for a large amount, or selling items that resemble other items for a large amount. But even in those cases, if the buyer is paying attention, and asks in a world chat, etc...they can usually prevent themselves from being scammed.

Kellin

03-26-2007, 05:44 PM

Saurakk@Guk wrote: <blockquote>The only pet peeve I really have in regards to the market are when people try to profit off of others ignorance. ie selling NPC bought items for a large amount, or selling items that resemble other items for a large amount. But even in those cases, if the buyer is paying attention, and asks in a world chat, etc...they can usually prevent themselves from being scammed.</blockquote>Oh, yes. The people who put tradeskill essentials books out for high prices, hoping to scam some inattentive person into paying for what they think is the advanced book. Merchant-sold food and drink. I have known people who think 'repair materials' are the same as a patch kit and I think they bought them off the broker under that assumption.That is dirty playing, in my opinion. Not specifically against the rules, but it's taking advantage of people in a pretty crappy way.

liveja

03-26-2007, 06:28 PM

<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote>EQ2 resources are constantly replenishing. You can never EVER have a monolopy on them.</blockquote>QFT. I'm somewhat incredulous people don't understand this.People: comparing the EQ2 market to any sort of real world market is a loss. Real world markets operate on a scarcity of goods that doesn't work in EQ2. Diamonds, for example, are expensive in the real world, because not everyone can go out & harvest them all over the world with little-to-no-cost, manpower, or other resource expenditures. But in EQ2, *anyone* that gets off his or her rear end can go out & harvest all day long, & they will find things they can sell, & they will find all the tradeskill resources they need, for free.Trying to claim monopolization, or market manipulation, etc., is simply false logic.

Saurus

03-26-2007, 06:48 PM

It's not against any ethics to buy stuff and sell em for a higher price imo, thats how the get rich in some mmos

Slapfish

03-26-2007, 06:52 PM

There's nothing unethical about buying low and selling for a profit. That's what business is all about. There is just as much risk in doing it as in real life, so if a player is willing to take the risk, why shouldn't he profit from it? What risk does he take? Well he risks that it will cost him more to keep buying up the competition than he makes in profits from his sales. Example:Let's say Cruddy Roots are averaging 1gp each and Greedymofo wants to sell them for 5gp each. He buys up 100 roots at a cost of 1 plat and now puts them on the market for 5gp each. Now he has to sell at least 20 roots to break even. Can he do it? Well roots are one of those things that are pretty common, and all it takes it someone else dropping a few roots on the broker for 4gp and now they are buying Notquiteasgreedy's roots instead. Now Greedy has a dilemma. He can either buy Notquite's roots at 4gp to once again corner the market, or drop his own prices under 4gp. Hmmm, what to do, what to do?In the EQ2 economy this situation is quite realistic. It's simply too easy for another player to enter the market with places now inflated to roughly your own if you try to do this. In a real world economy you might be able to convince people that your Cruddy Roots are better than Notquite's, perhaps with a good marketing plan, or putting them in a shiny box, but in EQ we all know that one Cruddy Root is the same as the next. So the person who attempts to corner the market might find himself with a backpack of Cruddy Roots and little profit in the long run.

LaeliaJS

03-26-2007, 07:53 PM

There are absolutely no ethics for buying and selling on the broker. None.I have seen it all. I have seen people pricing "A pristine moonstone" for 2p, hoping someone would get confused, think it's a rare, and buy it. I've seen people selling vendor-bought crappy furniture at a huge markup. I knew someone who logged on twice daily for a month to buy and destroy all metals that were priced under 30 silver, just to discourage people from armorcrafting so he'd have fewer competitors. I've seen people who bought up and vendored treasured items to encourage the market for their handcrafted items. I've seen things that were 4 gold on the Qeynos market and 40 gold on the Freeport market (and vice versa), before the two markets were lumped together. You'd better believe I bought them and resold them on the opposite markets. Once upon a time, Acrylia clusters were selling at 10g each because they were only used for making rare jewelry. When they changed to be needed to make adept IIIs, the next day all the 10g clusters were all gone, and one lone person was selling 60 of them at 1p each. When transmuting came out, the price of tier 2 and 3 common drops soared to ridiculous levels.What do I say to this? All the more power to them.*Everything* that is sold on the broker can be gotten for free, with a little (or a lot) of time and patience. It is entirely possible to go from level 1 to level 70 without touching the broker once.Caveat Emptor. Let the buyer beware. Before clicking "buy", look at what you're buying. Shop around to find out whether that's really a fair price. No one can be ripped off unless they let themselves. And no one is ENTITLED to a cheap or fair price. If Sony thought so, the vendors would just sell these items directly and there'd be no need at all for the broker. But what fun is that? ...Of course, whether or not, however, an individual feels GUILTY about doing any of the above actions, is another matter entirely.

ZachSpastic

03-26-2007, 08:24 PM

<cite>livejazz wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote>EQ2 resources are constantly replenishing. You can never EVER have a monolopy on them.</blockquote>QFT. I'm somewhat incredulous people don't understand this.People: comparing the EQ2 market to any sort of real world market is a loss. Real world markets operate on a scarcity of goods that doesn't work in EQ2. Diamonds, for example, are expensive in the real world, because not everyone can go out & harvest them all over the world with little-to-no-cost, manpower, or other resource expenditures. But in EQ2, *anyone* that gets off his or her rear end can go out & harvest all day long, & they will find things they can sell, & they will find all the tradeskill resources they need, for free.Trying to claim monopolization, or market manipulation, etc., is simply false logic. </blockquote>Diamonds, including gem quality stones, are incredibly common and not at all rare. It is the artificial monopoly created by DeBeers after stumbling upon fields in South Africa where the diamonds were quite literally lying all over the ground that has created the appearance that they are somehow more rare and hence more valuable than other pretty baubles.In effect, it is just such an artificial monopoly on items that some players attempt to create on the EQ2 broker that this discussion is about. You are correct in stating that comparisons between the real world and the EQ2 brokers are invalid. With the EQ2 broker, anyone who has obtained a small amount of virtual coin can, with no real financial risk involved, attempt to corner the market of worthless (virtual) items.

mellowknees72

03-26-2007, 08:32 PM

<cite>ZUES wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well I and my guildies have decided to take a stand against it. We had a long debate in our guild forums about it.Think of the United States with it's terrorism policy. Under NO circumstances will they give in to the demands of terrorists. How many terrorists or hijackers hit US planes, buses and transportaion any more? ZERO!So I'm sorry if it hurts individual honest peeps but it's just wrong and I wont support it.</blockquote> Okay first off: WHAT?And secondly, sure, we haven't had any attacks on US soil since 9/11...but there are terrorists all over the world killing Americans (and lots and lots of people from other countries) EVERY DAY.How in the heck can you possibly compare buying a cheap item on the broker in EQ2 and then reselling it to TERRORISM? For the love of Benji...Now, on the topic: I think it's totally fine if you want to buy something cheap and re-sell it. Likewise I don't think there is anything wrong with totally undercutting other people who are selling if it means you can unload something quickly. Some of us are "small potatoes" players and need cash on hand and can't wait until someone deigns to buy our stuff...so we have to take the Wal-Mart approach.However, I *do* find it extremely obnoxious when people price lower tier harvestables at extremely high prices...I *try* to keep my prices on those types of items in the middle of the road so that newer players can also afford them.

liveja

03-26-2007, 10:37 PM

<cite>ZachSpastic wrote:</cite><blockquote>Diamonds, including gem quality stones, are incredibly common and not at all rare. It is the artificial monopoly created by DeBeers after stumbling upon fields in South Africa where the diamonds were quite literally lying all over the ground that has created the appearance that they are somehow more rare and hence more valuable than other pretty baubles.</blockquote>Fine, then replace diamonds with virtually any other "rare" commodity. You knew exactly what I meant, so even if my example of diamonds wasn't the best, I think we can find one that will work just fine.As to your point: while anyone can ATTEMPT to "control" the EQ2 market, such attempts will fail, because they cannot control the supply. They can only attempt to control what's available on the broker; since they have no control on the amount of resources generated, where they're generated, by whom, etc., they cannot control anything beyond one little slice of the world, & EVEN THEN it's highly arguable as to whether their attempts will succeed.That was my overall point, & I stand by it.

Morgane

03-27-2007, 12:40 AM

Pipes@Najena wrote: <blockquote>Some of us are "small potatoes" players and need cash on hand and can't wait until someone deigns to buy our stuff...so we have to take the Wal-Mart approach.</blockquote> THANK you. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> What he/she said. See, at this particular moment there is someone selling 244 Severed Bones on the Broker for 6g. Now, more power to this person... whatever. I dunno HOW they managed to get 244 Severed Bones... maybe they saved'em up all year and threw'em out there at once. Same person had a ridiculous amount of Blackened Iron Clusters up, too. I had ONE... and to me it's worth 20g to 30g. I need that gold to upgrade my armor, spells, etc. If I have to undercut the person selling 856 silver clusters, I'm gonna do it so I can unload my one cluster and go buy myself a Master or something. I spend several hours a day (most days anyway) harvesting. I end up with a buttload of elm and maple, deer meat, coffee beans etc. I TRY to sell that stuff at 1c, but eventually I usually end up destroying them. Too common... easy enough for tradeskillers to get the stuff themselves. The iron clusters and the loams come a little slower, so I price them a bit higher. Etc, etc, etc. I suppose some of the stuff that goes on isn't really FAIR, but you're right... what would be the fun in the Broker if it was FAIR? One of the most entertaining parts of this game for me is harvesting, tradeskilling and selling on the Broker to see how much money I get get. I'm not rolling in coin, but I don't do too shabby and I keep my toons outfitted well.

Chirpaa

03-27-2007, 07:20 AM

I tend to laugh at the people who buy at a lower price and then try to sell at a higher to make a consistent income. Sometimes, of course, it works. But, when someone actually tries to control a market by doing it...hehe, they tend to fail miserably.There's actually a current example of this on my server. 4 weeks ago I noticed all of a particular rare priced below a certain point sell in a matter of minutes, followed promptly by the same quantity that disappeared showing up in a stack for sale by one person, at a price at the high end of the "middle" asking price for this rare. This went on for about a week, and the individual's stack continued to grow.This seller is now sitting on a stack of the rare that he paid for. From what I can tell, he stopped buying the lower priced ones (probably ran out of money) and has only sold 1. I say this because once his stack stopped growing, there has never been a moment when there were not a dozen or more of the rare priced under him... so who's going to buy the expensive ones?I see this semi-regularly. I have no doubt he may eventually sell the items with some profit involved, but it's going to take a LONG time. Meanwhile he's tieing up broker slots, and someone else is already out there spending the cash he so nicely gave them.Controlling a market won't work for someone in this game, as others have said here. Making a dime by knowing the market better than others, however (which is what I believe the OP does) is an entirely different matter. I make a little bit of money pretty regularly this way myself.

Shackleton1

03-27-2007, 08:37 AM

I don't really think that reselling is unethical, as such. The other day I picked up a bargain on an item that I use, I don't really see how reselling is different ethically to just picking up a bargain.What does annoy me a bit is farming. Not because its unethical, but just because it makes it a bit awkward for me to use the broker. I don't farm, don't have time for it. What I pick up in regular play is negligable compared to what someone picks up from farming. Not only does a farmer have more time, but his acquisition of platinum is far, far, far more efficient. Regular playing the game just doesn't yield much money. I spend three hours running through unrest, say, and I'll make I guess an average of 50 gold. A farmer soloes some master dropping group instance and makes an average of (plucking numbers of the top of my head) 10 platinum in the same time. The result is that I'm priced out of the market. Which is kind of annoying. But against that, I don't expect to get raiding gear without raiding, so I don't think I really have a right to complain about not having good access to the market.While on the subject of market gripes, I don't like that I have to compete against someone who's using the bottomless pit of his credit card to boost his cash reserves. I can't ever compete with that. But again, not much to be done about it, so I go back to killing beasties <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Veet

03-27-2007, 08:50 AM

There are, as far as I'm concerned only two rules in the EQ2 market: Pay what you're willing to pay. Price at a point that you're happy with that you think will sell. There are times when I undercut prices on the broker. Last night for example: Fat Grubs (as of last night on Unrest) were sitting in the 1P range. I had mine up at the low end of market price for 24 hours. I figure heck, 85g (+20% broker=1p+) would be nice. But, it didn't sell. So, I thought about how much I would be happy to get for it...I think I decided on 50g or so. I would much rather have 50g today than 1p sometime next week, or to have to keep shifting the price as the market fluctuates. If you don't like my undercutting, fine, then buy my lower priced item and sell it your price for a profit. I made my money, I don't care. But, be warned, the market fluctuates, and you may find yourself with a pile of fat worms and nobody to sell them to. There only questions are "what am I willing to pay?" and "what price will I be happy to sell for?". If someone sells Tubers for 20c and I buy them all, they win - they sold their tubers. If I then decide to flip them for 1s, you can buy them or not. Tubers aren't hard to come buy. 1s is the price you pay for the convenience of not having to chase them down yourself. Now, if I jack up the price such that nobody will pay me, that's my problem isn't it? We're not talking about food and medicine here, folks. There are no ethics in play. There are no monopolies in this game; you can go out and get *any* item that someone is selling. There are no ethics in play. My refusal to sell at a price that is either competitive (good for buyers) or market driven (good for sellers) does not, and cannot, cause you material harm. There are no ethics in play. There is only smart and stupid, and I am free to behave and smartly (or dumbly) as I choose.

Ruut Li

03-27-2007, 08:55 AM

It sickens me when people try to come off as victims because they cant get an item from the broker - either they refuse to pay the current price or they cant afford it. So they go "waa waa" and say its unethical and starts talking about real life examples. Right at that moment in real life there are Real victims who cannot spend their time playing a fun game such EQ2. People die from hunger and war and what not. You, EQ2 player, are not a victim. You dont even need food or water for your char, you just WANT it.If the price isnt "right" go get it urself or sthu and wait for the price to get "right". I have played for 2 years and my chars have never suffered from going out to get stuff themselves coz im too cheap to pay the current price. Oh I can even WAIT for the price to be "right" when RL keeps me from spending time to get the stuff myself.Even if you are lvl 70 with only 1 copper you are not a victim. Add cant go to t7 zones because you are comepletely naked - no you are still not a victim. You are probably a lazy crybaby is all.

hansomepete

03-27-2007, 09:33 AM

Why would it be wrong? it's done everyday in the real world. In reality you could sell your house for a $1, it would just mean some real estate investor would buy it and resell it for market value. Same thing you are doing but in the virtual world.

Ganlu

03-27-2007, 01:47 PM

<cite>hansomepete wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why would it be wrong? it's done everyday in the real world. In reality you could sell your house for a $1, it would just mean some real estate investor would buy it and resell it for market value. Same thing you are doing but in the virtual world. </blockquote>The only reason people think it's wrong is because it's not within their "vision" of a fair price/economy, where somehow an item's value is arbitrarily decided.

Kaishod

03-27-2007, 04:31 PM

Grimheart@Runnyeye wrote: <blockquote>Resellers have NOT taken the time to harvest, to kill mobs, etc to find those items.They are simply taking advantage of other players time and effort.</blockquote> I have to disagree with this statement... I think they are harvesting from the broker imo. I spend about an hour a day searching the broker for good buys. Personally, I find fun in buying low and selling high, also the reason why I am 90% mastered and 90% legendary/fabled. I also do the same in real life and have been able to afford several bars and a night club along the way in order for me to basically retire at 30 with proper money management(which can also be used in EQ).... and buying low... selling high. Even Wal-mart does it(think they're in business just giving product away at a loss?). Though I think there is no need to jack the price up to ridiculous amounts(ie. lvl 10 masters to 1p, silver clusters to 50g, etc). Most people have champagne tastes on a beer budget and settle for what they can get quick. I am willing to help them stay that way so I can prosper. Me, like other "re-sellers" do help the economy more then those just placing items on the broker. We buy, in turn putting coin in someone else's pocket so they can buy, so I can buy. The circle of life <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />One thing I haven't seen anyone mention is the status that spending money brings with it. Just as in rl, there is a slight unspoken heiracrchy of class when it comes to gear, houses, horses, etc. Those that can afford, have. Those that cannot afford, have not. EVERYONE wants the best gear possible, to be mastered out, to have the best horse, etc. In any market, things cost. Those with the best gear/all mastered, and can play well with others(of course) will always be more revered and wanted in group and in guild then those who aren't. To get this way when not in a raiding guild, you have to find other methods. Instances, farming, harvesting, crafting, playing the broker, etc. Plus, I'm sure, its alot more fulfilling then typing in a cc number and having plat delivered.And like so many that have mentioned it... if you are willing to let the rare or legendary/fabled item go for such a low price, good for you. Me, I can hold out for the price I know has been or can be paid. Thats capitalism. Even in EQ.

Kaishod

03-27-2007, 04:37 PM

ZUES

03-27-2007, 05:17 PM

Ruut Li wrote: <blockquote>It sickens me when people try to come off as victims because they cant get an item from the broker - either they refuse to pay the current price or they cant afford it. So they go "waa waa" and say its unethical and starts talking about real life examples. Right at that moment in real life there are Real victims who cannot spend their time playing a fun game such EQ2. People die from hunger and war and what not. You, EQ2 player, are not a victim. You dont even need food or water for your char, you just WANT it.If the price isnt "right" go get it urself or sthu and wait for the price to get "right". I have played for 2 years and my chars have never suffered from going out to get stuff themselves coz im too cheap to pay the current price. Oh I can even WAIT for the price to be "right" when RL keeps me from spending time to get the stuff myself.Even if you are lvl 70 with only 1 copper you are not a victim. Add cant go to t7 zones because you are comepletely naked - no you are still not a victim. You are probably a lazy crybaby is all.</blockquote> First of all junior since your so smart let me explain that many items people are complaining about having to pay for are very rare. For example the conjuror scout pet master "Aery Hunter" has never dropped in my hundreds of raids and groups in DoF. Currently the price is 120 platinum each and the only 2 I've ever personally seen are on broker right now. We are talking about a level 60 spell that has been out since you were wearing diapers in forest ruins. Ethical? I never said if it was or was not and from all the responses to this thread I've read I dont see where you got your attitude from. Did someone offend you? Maybe your feeling guilty about something so therefore your offended. Oh and the treehugger routine...... nice response. Very..... um...... creative? <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Two words for ya.....LESS COFFEE !Not trying to offend ya, I just dont understand why your posting in such a "angry tone".

Kenazeer

03-27-2007, 08:23 PM

Meddic@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote>Ruut Li wrote: <blockquote>It sickens me when people try to come off as victims because they cant get an item from the broker - either they refuse to pay the current price or they cant afford it. So they go "waa waa" and say its unethical and starts talking about real life examples. Right at that moment in real life there are Real victims who cannot spend their time playing a fun game such EQ2. People die from hunger and war and what not. You, EQ2 player, are not a victim. You dont even need food or water for your char, you just WANT it.If the price isnt "right" go get it urself or sthu and wait for the price to get "right". I have played for 2 years and my chars have never suffered from going out to get stuff themselves coz im too cheap to pay the current price. Oh I can even WAIT for the price to be "right" when RL keeps me from spending time to get the stuff myself.Even if you are lvl 70 with only 1 copper you are not a victim. Add cant go to t7 zones because you are comepletely naked - no you are still not a victim. You are probably a lazy crybaby is all.</blockquote> First of all junior since your so smart let me explain that many items people are complaining about having to pay for are very rare. For example the conjuror scout pet master "Aery Hunter" has never dropped in my hundreds of raids and groups in DoF. Currently the price is 120 platinum each and the only 2 I've ever personally seen are on broker right now. We are talking about a level 60 spell that has been out since you were wearing diapers in forest ruins. Ethical? I never said if it was or was not and from all the responses to this thread I've read I dont see where you got your attitude from. Did someone offend you? Maybe your feeling guilty about something so therefore your offended. Oh and the treehugger routine...... nice response. Very..... um...... creative? <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Two words for ya.....LESS COFFEE !Not trying to offend ya, I just dont understand why your posting in such a "angry tone".</blockquote>Do you believe rarity should play a part in determining the value of an item?If you beleive this item is overpriced, what is a fair price? What criteria did you use in coming to this conclusion?Perhaps we have it all wrong and can start using the Meddic method of pricing.

ZUES

03-27-2007, 08:33 PM

And what method would that be? I dont believe I left an opinion about pricing rare items.

liveja

03-27-2007, 08:44 PM

Meddic@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote>First of all junior since your so smart let me explain that many items people are complaining about having to pay for are very rare. For example the conjuror scout pet master "Aery Hunter" has never dropped in my hundreds of raids and groups in DoF. Currently the price is 120 platinum each and the only 2 I've ever personally seen are on broker right now. We are talking about a level 60 spell that has been out since you were wearing diapers in forest ruins. Ethical? I never said if it was or was not and from all the responses to this thread I've read I dont see where you got your attitude from. Did someone offend you? Maybe your feeling guilty about something so therefore your offended. </blockquote>If you're not saying the price is either "ethical" or "unethical" ... what are you saying? I've read this paragraph a couple times now, & still can't figure out what you're trying to say.

Josgar

03-27-2007, 09:02 PM

There are no ethics to this. If I buy up everything and sell it at a higher price, it may be jerkish of me, but if one person decides to buy it for my new price, then they have set teh standards. Basically... the buyers decide the price. If I price something at 10 plat and nobody buys it, then its obviously the wrong price.. If someone does buy it though, I may decide taht people think that it is fair.

Proudfoot

03-28-2007, 12:12 AM

<cite>TheWarparty wrote:</cite><blockquote>Had a very heated discussion with a freind last night about the ethics of making money through selling things at the broker.It all boils down to one issue: Is it wrong to buy something that is for sale and then re-sell it for a highr price. (I jokingly reffer to this as 'playing the commodities market'.)The mechanics talked about were this. Say I have a harvestable item (say tuber strands) for sale for 1 silver each. I log on one day and see that over a dozen people have under-cut my price and there are several hundred strands for under 20 copper each now available. My friend says that I am morally bankrupt in that I would feel no shame in buying the cheaper stands and re-selling them at my regularly posted price. She claims I am 'playing God' with the brokers by buying low and selling high and am "cheating" the people who are selling them of thier hard work in harvesting/making stuff.I think there is nothing reprehensible in it. The seller makes his own decision on what an item is worth and I am giving them what they asked for, not mugging them in a back alley, and re-selling at what I feel is a fair price. I do not feel that if some one sells something for 2 copper that usally sells for a gold that I am ripping them off, I am not my brothers keeper.I am just wondering, and I the amoral butt head out here, or is my friend being a bit anuly retentive on this?? I doubt if anything anyone says here will change my mind, but I am curious what the EQ2 community thinks on this subject.</blockquote> The 'ethics' come into play when the Seller is placing an item up for sale that: A: They don't need B: Want to make more cash off of it than the 2s the vendor will give C: Think someone else may need/want this item for their character Example: I find a level 10 +3int +3wis dagger while playing. I return from my adventures and, at my house, decide to place this item up for bid, thinking maybe a lowbie caster would like to have this for their character. Upon placing the item up and doing the 'find this item' button to compare prices I see: 5g 8g 20s 10g Ok; I think to myself that's just foolish for a level 10 item. So I place my dagger up for 50s. #1: I'm undercutting because the only reason the other sellers have place those pricetags is for obssessive greed. #2: I wouldn't buy such an item for that kind of coin. #3: Would like to help a fellow player by providing an item that they may be able to use without breaking the bank. OK; So here comes a player like quamdar or warparty who had their item at the low one-time-only price of 5g. They buy my dagger for 50s and when I browse again the next day see I sold it but the 5g version now has a "2" on it. Old fashion greed. When you snatch up a cheap item to resell it, you're only concern is yourself and not the functionality of the game (5g at 10?), or helping anyone else out be being remotely "fair". On AB server, I would routinely log in to see that the 3 to 4 adept 1 books I had for sale were bought by the same person. Hmm /who person and they aren't a class that ANY of the books were for. 2 options; guildy snagging them for mates OR reseller cutting off others who may of needed those books only to make a bigger buck off of them. Welcome to the rank of Used Car Salesman.

Kaishod

03-28-2007, 02:52 AM

Proudfoot wrote: <blockquote><blockquote>The 'ethics' come into play when the Seller is placing an item up for sale that: A: They don't need B: Want to make more cash off of it than the 2s the vendor will give C: Think someone else may need/want this item for their character Example: I find a level 10 +3int +3wis dagger while playing. I return from my adventures and, at my house, decide to place this item up for bid, thinking maybe a lowbie caster would like to have this for their character. Upon placing the item up and doing the 'find this item' button to compare prices I see: 5g 8g 20s 10g Ok; I think to myself that's just foolish for a level 10 item. So I place my dagger up for 50s. #1: I'm undercutting because the only reason the other sellers have place those pricetags is for obssessive greed. #2: I wouldn't buy such an item for that kind of coin. #3: Would like to help a fellow player by providing an item that they may be able to use without breaking the bank. OK; So here comes a player like quamdar or warparty who had their item at the low one-time-only price of 5g. They buy my dagger for 50s and when I browse again the next day see I sold it but the 5g version now has a "2" on it. Old fashion greed. When you snatch up a cheap item to resell it, you're only concern is yourself and not the functionality of the game (5g at 10?), or helping anyone else out be being remotely "fair". On AB server, I would routinely log in to see that the 3 to 4 adept 1 books I had for sale were bought by the same person. Hmm /who person and they aren't a class that ANY of the books were for. 2 options; guildy snagging them for mates OR reseller cutting off others who may of needed those books only to make a bigger buck off of them. Welcome to the rank of Used Car Salesman. </blockquote></blockquote>first, why sell it for 50s and not 1c? Wouldn't that help the newer character more? a nice item plus some extra coin?Secondly, do you follow this theory even if you happen to loot a legendary or fabled item that is listed at 25p or 50p? If so... and if ever on Butcherblock, please let me know, lol... if not... then what is the difference?

metacell

03-28-2007, 03:25 AM

Maybe it's time to clarify:There's a difference between simply "buying low, selling high", and buying up all low-priced items of a certain type to make sure people can't buy it cheaper from someone else.In the latter case, you are not only offering a trade to people, you are also deliberately removing their opportunity to make that trade from others at a lower price. That's market manipulation.Of course, you could view market manipulation as part of the game. You could even view mob stealing and releasing a charmed mob right on top of somebody else as part of the game. Nobody forces people to play where you are playing, right? And there's not like there's a limited supply of any mob, even quest mobs - they will respawn infinitely.

Kellin

03-28-2007, 08:36 AM

Higher prices on tier 1 and 2 treasured stuff, including adept 1s, and the fact that a single person might buy several different ones is more likely an indication that they're a transmuter than a reseller. The insane market for low tier treasured and legendary is gone now. I agree, though, that 10g is a stupid price for a tier 1 treasured. A lot of newbie players wouldn't be able to afford it, and it really isn't worth that much, even as a transmutable item (at least on my server). However, there are people who hold out, thinking some desperate person will pay it, and that's fine. As for your Aery Hunter, well, I'm assuming that's the level 60 pet spell? Necros have the same problem. Go find a bunch of level 60 mobs and farm farm farm. It might take some time (perhaps even 125 plat worth of time?), but it will probably drop eventually.

Kenazeer

03-28-2007, 09:33 AM

Meddic@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote>And what method would that be? I dont believe I left an opinion about pricing rare items.</blockquote> The following sentence from your post left me with the distinct impression you felt the price was too high."We are talking about a level 60 spell that has been out since you were wearing diapers in forest ruins."Sort of along the lines of Allen Iverson's comment "We're talking bout practice." I took the tone as being dismissive. Maybe I was incorrect, and if so, now if the oppurtunity to clear this up. Do you feel that the 120pp price is a "fair" one, or do you have no opinion either way? If you are making a judgment, you must be using some sort of comparative criteria. When I spoke of your "method" earlier I was referring to how you established your comparative criteria, and what these criteria are.

Sotaudi

03-28-2007, 04:39 PM

Saurakk@Guk wrote: <blockquote>There really are no ethics when it comes to the EQ2 market....I stress the distinction EQ2 market so don't try to argue the point with real world market examples.Unless the seller is scamming someone and misrepresenting what they are selling, they can price it for whatever they want.If a buyer wants to buy the too expensive item, great. If a buyer wants to buy the too cheap item and re-sell it, great.The original seller is getting what they want, the new buyer is taking a risk of selling it for a higher price and possibly never sell it, or they are being smart and making a profit off of it.If people want to partake in charity, then give the items away to people you think need them...don't expect to put the item on the broker for cheap and not have people buy it for whatever reason.The only pet peeve I really have in regards to the market are when people try to profit off of others ignorance. ie selling NPC bought items for a large amount, or selling items that resemble other items for a large amount. But even in those cases, if the buyer is paying attention, and asks in a world chat, etc...they can usually prevent themselves from being scammed.</blockquote>You are making contradictory statments here. If there was nothing unethical about this activity, it would not peeve you. The reason it bothers you is that you recognize the practice as an intentional attempt to deceive people. How is that not an unethical practice? Thus, you and everyone else saying that there are "no ethics" involved are incorrect.

KBern

03-28-2007, 04:49 PM

<cite>Sotaudi wrote:</cite><blockquote>Saurakk@Guk wrote: <blockquote>There really are no ethics when it comes to the EQ2 market....Unless the seller is scamming someone and misrepresenting what they are selling, they can price it for whatever they want.The only pet peeve I really have in regards to the market are when people try to profit off of others ignorance. ie selling NPC bought items for a large amount, or selling items that resemble other items for a large amount. But even in those cases, if the buyer is paying attention, and asks in a world chat, etc...they can usually prevent themselves from being scammed.</blockquote>You are making contradictory statments here. If there was nothing unethical about this activity, it would not peeve you. The reason it bothers you is that you recognize the practice as an intentional attempt to deceive people. How is that not an unethical practice? Thus, you and everyone else saying that there are "no ethics" involved are incorrect.</blockquote>I cut out the fluff and highlighted the important parts of my statement.First off, I said there really are no ethics when it comes to the eq2 market...maybe I should have stressed "mainly in regards to pricing". I even solidified that statement by an immediate follow up about "misrepresentation".My pet peeve is exactly that, a pet peeve...that does not automatically equate to unethical, but again, the example I gave is blatant misrespresentation of an item. I then followed that up with the last statement of still putting the onus on the buyer.Even in those cases, the item the seller is selling is out in the open, and easily discerned if this item is what they buyer thinks it is. If the buyer does not take the time to make sure they are buying what they think, then shame on them.There was no contradiction.

Ruut Li

03-29-2007, 08:02 AM

Hi MeddicIt seems my post offended you very much. Im guessing you are one of those people who compare the "suffering" of you game Char with real life victims. You think its fun to make fun of me because i think its a horrible and scandalous attitude to compare a Game Char with a real life victim, and yes it makes me angry..your char is not a victim. I dont feel sorry for you because you cant buy a master spell in a game. I dont, will never do.My post was directed at all those people who compare to real life unfairness. I have no clue if ive read such a post made by you, but judging from your reaction you must be one of them people who have a hard time keeping your hobby/entertainment and rl apart. Or is eq2 your life perhaps? is that the reason my healthy and logical reasoning offends you so much. I remember something about junior and diapers in ur "response"..? and there was a coffee comment ../???. It seems like my post annoyd you but you cant really defend your reaction so you have to toss in a couple of flame baits. Oh and junior and diapers doesnt really hurt since im female and not a kid. So you need to post your female flames. Make em good and I might honor you with a /report to moderator. Edit: now I see you meant my char had diapers..nm . ill leave it in though so that you have more material for your flames.Could you tell me what your implying when you say i feel guilty of something? Your rambling is really confusing =/

Ishya

03-29-2007, 02:39 PM

think about why it is illegal in real life? thats the same reason why i don't ever buy from someone who actively does that

Jesdyr

03-29-2007, 03:06 PM

Lynsi@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote>think about why it is illegal in real life? thats the same reason why i don't ever buy from someone who actively does that </blockquote> I dont even know what you are talking about but RL rules just dont apply. In RL a sword would not be attuned to you. You could sell a used sword. This system has a HUGE effect on broker prices. More so than someone buying low and selling high. Imagine what would happen to the game if items were not consumed the way they are rightnow. Attunement is the real reason for high prices ! .. that and transmuting....

Kellin

03-29-2007, 03:24 PM

Lynsi@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote>think about why it is illegal in real life? thats the same reason why i don't ever buy from someone who actively does that </blockquote> Well, in real life, it's actually possible to have a real negative impact on people's lives. Price gouging after a natural disaster, cornering the market on a basic staple, looting, these are things that have been deemed illegal by our government. Real people are materially harmed by these practices, sometimes financially, sometimes physically.EQ2 isn't the real world. There aren't any laws governing broker sales, just game mechanics. If people buying low and reselling offends you, fine, don't buy from them, but don't go acting like anyone is really being harmed by this. Your character won't starve to death, ever. Your character won't really die. He just respawns.In the game, you kill people, and you don't get arrested. You kill animals and don't get fined for hunting without a license. You break into people's homes, kill them, steal their stuff, and go home at the end of the day without the law after you. You commit horrendous atrocities in the name of greed and feel no remorse, because it's a game.I find it hard to believe that so many people seem to have trouble differentiating between a fantasy game and real life.

Sotaudi

03-29-2007, 05:36 PM

Saurakk@Guk wrote: <blockquote><cite>Sotaudi wrote:</cite><blockquote>Saurakk@Guk wrote: <blockquote>There really are no ethics when it comes to the EQ2 market....Unless the seller is scamming someone and misrepresenting what they are selling, they can price it for whatever they want.The only pet peeve I really have in regards to the market are when people try to profit off of others ignorance. ie selling NPC bought items for a large amount, or selling items that resemble other items for a large amount. But even in those cases, if the buyer is paying attention, and asks in a world chat, etc...they can usually prevent themselves from being scammed.</blockquote>You are making contradictory statments here. If there was nothing unethical about this activity, it would not peeve you. The reason it bothers you is that you recognize the practice as an intentional attempt to deceive people. How is that not an unethical practice? Thus, you and everyone else saying that there are "no ethics" involved are incorrect.</blockquote>I cut out the fluff and highlighted the important parts of my statement.First off, I said there really are no ethics when it comes to the eq2 market...maybe I should have stressed "mainly in regards to pricing". I even solidified that statement by an immediate follow up about "misrepresentation".My pet peeve is exactly that, a pet peeve...that does not automatically equate to unethical, but again, the example I gave is blatant misrespresentation of an item. I then followed that up with the last statement of still putting the onus on the buyer.Even in those cases, the item the seller is selling is out in the open, and easily discerned if this item is what they buyer thinks it is. If the buyer does not take the time to make sure they are buying what they think, then shame on them.There was no contradiction. </blockquote>Your adding "in regard to pricing" does nothing to mitigate what I said. There is nothing unethical about buying a crafting essentials book and putting it up at the standard cost of the book. The unethical practice is setting the price to make people think they are buying an Advanced book. Thus, we are still basically talking about pricing issues, so your narrowing of the statement does not change anything.Likewise, you said that the practice was a "pet peeve" of yours. Your words, not mine. So the question is, if there is nothing "wrong" with what is being done, why does it peeve you? The answer, of course, is that you see something wrong with the practice or you would not give it a second thought. That is, you recognize it as violating a principle or value you hold. Guess what? That is what ethics are, the values and principles you (more specifically, societies in general) hold to be true. Thus, whether you are willing to admit it or not, you see the practice as unethical or it would not bother you.I do not know what there is about the word "unethical" that people are having so much trouble with. Unethical does not mean "illegal" or "against the rules." There are plenty of things that are considered unethical that there are no laws or rules to prevent someone from doing. You even gave an example above. If someone buys a low value item that was priced as a higher priced item and the reason they bought it was because they did not look closely enough, there is nothing they can do about it. But that does not change the fact that the person pricing the item in a price range of higher value items knows that the names of the items are similar enough that someone may not notice the difference. Thus, they are intentionally misrepresenting the value of the item counting on the fact that someone may purchase it thinking they were buying something else. Yes, the adage, "Let the buyer beware" is an applicable market principle here. But the reason it peeves you is because the ethic, "Let the seller be honest" is also something we all recognize as important.Thus, you can parse the wording all you want. But the very fact that the practice bothers you belies your contention that you do not think it is an unethical practice. Even so, you can hold both that it is unethical and perfectly legal without the slighest hint of hypocracy. Unethical and illegal are not synonyms.So, yes, though you do not recognize it, you are making contradictory statements.

KBern

03-29-2007, 05:47 PM

<cite>Sotaudi wrote:</cite><blockquote> But the reason it peeves you is because the ethic, "Let the seller be honest" is also something we all recognize as important. Thus, you can parse the wording all you want. But the very fact that the practice bothers you belies your contention that you do not think it is an unethical practice. Even so, you can hold both that it is unethical and perfectly legal without the slighest hint of hypocracy. Unethical and illegal are not synonyms.So, yes, though you do not recognize it, you are making contradictory statements.</blockquote> You're right, we can go around all day, but again, you are making a fallacious conclusion based on my "pet peeve".An annoyanve or pet peeve does not equate to unethical. A pet peeve can be someone leaving the cap off of the toothpaste...it does not make it unethical.A good example is a pet peeve of mine about pricing items in real markets as $19.99 as opposed to $20. It doesnt make it unethical, but it is a pet peeve.Another pet peeve is the way car commercials have the low voice at the end speak 1,000 wpm about the disclaimer and legal statement. It is not unethical but that is another pet peeve.Again there are no real ethics in the EQ2 broker...the buyer sees clearly what they are buying, and for what exact price.

ZUES

03-29-2007, 05:56 PM

Ruut Li wrote: <blockquote>Hi MeddicIt seems my post offended you very much. Im guessing you are one of those people who compare the "suffering" of you game Char with real life victims. You think its fun to make fun of me because i think its a horrible and scandalous attitude to compare a Game Char with a real life victim, and yes it makes me angry..your char is not a victim. I dont feel sorry for you because you cant buy a master spell in a game. I dont, will never do.My post was directed at all those people who compare to real life unfairness. I have no clue if ive read such a post made by you, but judging from your reaction you must be one of them people who have a hard time keeping your hobby/entertainment and rl apart. Or is eq2 your life perhaps? is that the reason my healthy and logical reasoning offends you so much. I remember something about junior and diapers in ur "response"..? and there was a coffee comment ../???. It seems like my post annoyd you but you cant really defend your reaction so you have to toss in a couple of flame baits. Oh and junior and diapers doesnt really hurt since im female and not a kid. So you need to post your female flames. Make em good and I might honor you with a /report to moderator. Edit: now I see you meant my char had diapers..nm . ill leave it in though so that you have more material for your flames.Could you tell me what your implying when you say i feel guilty of something? Your rambling is really confusing =/</blockquote>I read the first sentence or so and quit reading. What offends me is people coming into forums and start flaming people for their opinions. I am offended yes and it makes me mad to no end why people get so serious in a conversation like this. And who are you to analyze people from a forum? Since you know me better than I do (and everyone else that has opinions that differ from your own) then I'll gladly step aside and let you discuss your opinions OH WISE ONE.If your not going to be constructive in your responses to these forums then don't reply because I will flame your attack on people. Thats the only time you'll ever see me flame anyone.

Kenazeer

03-29-2007, 06:13 PM

Lynsi@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote>think about why it is illegal in real life? thats the same reason why i don't ever buy from someone who actively does that </blockquote> I am not sure whether this refers to simply buying and reselling, or to cornering the market, but people buy and resell all the time. Think about E-Bay and how much stuff on there is merchandise that has been purchased someplace else with the sole intent of reselling it. Buying, marking up, and reselling is just a normal course of business.Think about it like this, using a real world example. Say you win a 196X Shelby GT Mustang in a raffle but have no interest in driving it. Also, you are not a car aficionado, and have no idea how much it is worth. Do you look at it and think nice car, beautiful body, low miles, but hey, it is a 196X after all, so I will throw it in the sales ads for $15K? Or, do you research it and price it accordingly? If you do the former, can you really blame someone for happily buying the car for $15K and reselling it for up to $750k? Maybe this person already has the exact same vehicle and is interested in making sure the market value of his existing merchandise is not artificially diluted by your price. Heck, why would anyone buy his car for $650K when they can buy yours for $15k? He has a vested interest in making sure your vehicle conforms to the current market standards, and the bad thing for him to do would be to let your car sit in the market at $15k.Resellers are market savvy; people who have their goods resold, if they complain about it at least, are not. The market is not a place for charity. Resellers function as a stabilizing force in the market ensuring continuity of pricing. Pricing changes are then subject to supply vs demand, not the whim of each person who thinks....well it looks like it is worth X to me. An item is worth how much people will pay for it. Always! There is no other price except what a vendor will give you for it."Cornering" the market is another issue altogether. While "unethical" in my books, there are really no rules against it. I think darwinian forces eventually win out though, because anyone who thinks they can viably corner the market for a long period of time is a fool. The only greater fool is the person who lacks the patience to wait for market forces to correct this situation and pays the cornered price for an item.My two coppers.

Caetrel

03-29-2007, 06:21 PM

<cite>LaeliaJS wrote:</cite><blockquote>Caveat Emptor. Let the buyer beware. Before clicking "buy", look at what you're buying. Shop around to find out whether that's really a fair price. No one can be ripped off unless they let themselves. And no one is ENTITLED to a cheap or fair price. </blockquote>QFE. If you let yourself get ripped off on the EQ2 broker gl in the RW.

Sotaudi

03-29-2007, 07:07 PM

Saurakk@Guk wrote: <blockquote><cite>Sotaudi wrote:</cite><blockquote> But the reason it peeves you is because the ethic, "Let the seller be honest" is also something we all recognize as important. Thus, you can parse the wording all you want. But the very fact that the practice bothers you belies your contention that you do not think it is an unethical practice. Even so, you can hold both that it is unethical and perfectly legal without the slighest hint of hypocracy. Unethical and illegal are not synonyms.So, yes, though you do not recognize it, you are making contradictory statements.</blockquote> You're right, we can go around all day, but again, you are making a fallacious conclusion based on my "pet peeve".An annoyanve or pet peeve does not equate to unethical. A pet peeve can be someone leaving the cap off of the toothpaste...it does not make it unethical.A good example is a pet peeve of mine about pricing items in real markets as $19.99 as opposed to $20. It doesnt make it unethical, but it is a pet peeve.Another pet peeve is the way car commercials have the low voice at the end speak 1,000 wpm about the disclaimer and legal statement. It is not unethical but that is another pet peeve.Again there are no real ethics in the EQ2 broker...the buyer sees clearly what they are buying, and for what exact price.</blockquote>No, we cannot go around all day on this. You are now creating straw-man arguments and tearing them down. Nowhere did I even remotely equate pet peeves with unethical. I equated "wrong" (as in morally wrong) with unethical because ethics are what determine moral rights and wrong. What I stated was that the reason this particular pet peeve, not any petty annoyance you may have in your life, was a pet peeve is that you reconginzed it as wrong and that is what made it unethical. You cannot seriously believe that there is any connection between that concept and that of leaving the top off of a toothpaste tube.But, this is all pointless. You are sold on the this myth that there are no ethics involved because it is a free market. That means nothing anyone says is going to sway your opinion, even when they point out inconsistencies in your own arguments, even when they point out that unethical and legal are not mutually exclusive. The truth is, people make mistakes. But what is equally true is that unethical people will use that fact to make a dishonest profit, and the fact that they can get away with it becasue it is a "free market" does not change the ethics of the situation.What is most amusing about all this is that the very reason you have to keep pointing out the principles of "Let the buyer beware" is that that very statement recognizes that there are unethical people out there who will do unethical things and that the buyer needs to watch out because they may not be able to do anything about it after the transaction is complete. It has nothing to do with relieving the seller of any moral responsibility. That means it is absolutely disingenous to claim that there are no ethics involved. Otherwise, you would not have to keep trying to shift the blame to the buyer.So, no, we cannot go on about this all day.

Caetrel

03-29-2007, 08:12 PM

Ganlu

03-29-2007, 09:05 PM

Lynsi@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote>think about why it is illegal in real life? thats the same reason why i don't ever buy from someone who actively does that </blockquote> Hahaha you've got to be kidding me. Do you consider real estate investment illegal? After all, all they're doing is buying and reselling a house! It's not possible to monopolize anything in the game, because anyone can get it themselves. If you don't like the price and don't want to get it yourself, then you don't get it - it's that simple. No one is entitled to anything on the broker - it's a LUXURY!

Soldross

03-29-2007, 09:12 PM

<cite>Proudfoot wrote:</cite><blockquote> On AB server, I would routinely log in to see that the 3 to 4 adept 1 books I had for sale were bought by the same person. Hmm /who person and they aren't a class that ANY of the books were for. 2 options; guildy snagging them for mates OR reseller cutting off others who may of needed those books only to make a bigger buck off of them. Welcome to the rank of Used Car Salesman. </blockquote>Option 3 - Snagged them up to transmute them.

Ruut Li

03-30-2007, 07:33 AM

zues your telling me Im getting too serious in this forum discussion? LOL! What about the person, for example, who relates broker activity in eq2 to terrorism in rl!? haha!you just mad because I refuse to feel sorry for your game char, and you know my point is goooood. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Those who start to judge broker activity, pointing fingers, tossing stones and saying this and that is unethical are the ones who are taking their hobby/entertainement way too seriously and deserve a little bit of healthy dose of flaming in an "angry tone". /Oh wise one or Oh Sane person with common sense.

janmystique

03-30-2007, 07:42 AM

I don't make a habit of buying for the sole purpose of reselling but have been known to do it. The main thing that encourages me to do it is when people have put crafted items up for sale at less than the cost of the fuel. I see these items only because I am going to put the same items for sale myself so know the fuel costs. Basically, I can't be bothered to try to find these items.Like a lot of things, it is hard to say where something acceptable becomes unacceptable. I have my own standards I suppose. For example, I would never buy up the entire stock of an item on the broker simply to corner the market and get an inflated price for myself. There are pitfalls in the way of this succeeding anyway - like faster than you can resell, other people are putting the same item for sale at rapidly decreasing prices. Trying to make a fortune by buying off the broker and reselling could just be a recipe for "speculating" but not "accumulating"!

liveja

03-30-2007, 08:56 AM

Ruut Li wrote: <blockquote>Those who start to judge broker activity, pointing fingers, tossing stones and saying this and that is unethical are the ones who are taking their hobby/entertainement way too seriously</blockquote>QFT.

KBern

03-30-2007, 10:12 AM

<cite>Sotaudi wrote:</cite><blockquote>Saurakk@Guk wrote: <blockquote><cite>Sotaudi wrote:</cite><blockquote> But the reason it peeves you is because the ethic, "Let the seller be honest" is also something we all recognize as important. Thus, you can parse the wording all you want. But the very fact that the practice bothers you belies your contention that you do not think it is an unethical practice. Even so, you can hold both that it is unethical and perfectly legal without the slighest hint of hypocracy. Unethical and illegal are not synonyms.So, yes, though you do not recognize it, you are making contradictory statements.</blockquote> You're right, we can go around all day, but again, you are making a fallacious conclusion based on my "pet peeve".An annoyanve or pet peeve does not equate to unethical. A pet peeve can be someone leaving the cap off of the toothpaste...it does not make it unethical.A good example is a pet peeve of mine about pricing items in real markets as $19.99 as opposed to $20. It doesnt make it unethical, but it is a pet peeve.Another pet peeve is the way car commercials have the low voice at the end speak 1,000 wpm about the disclaimer and legal statement. It is not unethical but that is another pet peeve.Again there are no real ethics in the EQ2 broker...the buyer sees clearly what they are buying, and for what exact price.</blockquote>No, we cannot go around all day on this. You are now creating straw-man arguments and tearing them down. Nowhere did I even remotely equate pet peeves with unethical. I equated "wrong" (as in morally wrong) with unethical because ethics are what determine moral rights and wrong. What I stated was that the reason this particular pet peeve, not any petty annoyance you may have in your life, was a pet peeve is that you reconginzed it as wrong and that is what made it unethical. You cannot seriously believe that there is any connection between that concept and that of leaving the top off of a toothpaste tube.But, this is all pointless. You are sold on the this myth that there are no ethics involved because it is a free market. That means nothing anyone says is going to sway your opinion, even when they point out inconsistencies in your own arguments, even when they point out that unethical and legal are not mutually exclusive. The truth is, people make mistakes. But what is equally true is that unethical people will use that fact to make a dishonest profit, and the fact that they can get away with it becasue it is a "free market" does not change the ethics of the situation.What is most amusing about all this is that the very reason you have to keep pointing out the principles of "Let the buyer beware" is that that very statement recognizes that there are unethical people out there who will do unethical things and that the buyer needs to watch out because they may not be able to do anything about it after the transaction is complete. It has nothing to do with relieving the seller of any moral responsibility. That means it is absolutely disingenous to claim that there are no ethics involved. Otherwise, you would not have to keep trying to shift the blame to the buyer.So, no, we cannot go on about this all day.</blockquote>See, actually we can...let me quote you so far..."You are making contradictory statments here. If there was nothing unethical about this activity, it would not peeve you. The reason it bothers you is that you recognize the practice as an intentional attempt to deceive people. How is that not an unethical practice?"Hmm there is the targeting of my pet peeve statement and trying to equate it with being unethical."Likewise, you said that the practice was a "pet peeve" of yours. Your words, not mine. So the question is, if there is nothing "wrong" with what is being done, why does it peeve you? The answer, of course, is that you see something wrong with the practice or you would not give it a second thought. "Wow, there it is again...pet peeve = wrong = unethical....again..."No, we cannot go around all day on this. You are now creating straw-man arguments and tearing them down. Nowhere did I even remotely equate pet peeves with unethical. I equated "wrong" (as in morally wrong) with unethical because ethics are what determine moral rights and wrong. " Wow, a third time of you not equating pet peeves to being ethically wrong. <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />But I won't go around with you anymore because it is a waste of time to try to argue with someone who is trying to tell someone how they think and what they mean.Again, pet peeves, (even though you never said it /sarcasm) does not equate to ethics in any way, shape, or form.Have fun playing.

Natturabi

03-30-2007, 11:51 AM

Good subject, one that has been discussed much in the past. I personally disapprove of what I think of as market manipulation. (Ridiculous analogy<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />If Bill Gates or someone else with alot of capital decided to purchase all of the processed gasoline in the United States and resell it at twice the price, he could probably make quite a bit of cash. Eventually more gasoline would be produced and distributed at which point he could lower his price back to the norm and get out of the market. (legality/plausibility aside, it happens in EQII) In EQII it is much more easy to temporarily corner a market, and is actually pretty common. I think the only problem lies in the fact that these goods that are being cornered are tagged as "no-value." I have always thought that all harvestable goods should have a value, based on tier. A player could sell to an NPC if they just wanted to harvest and make a little coin without playing the market. Likewise, these same harvests could be purchased from an NPC for a premium. It is ridiculous to think that the only source of these commodoties are other players. We have all seen the NPC miners in Antonica endlessly toiling. What happens to the fruits of their labors? They could even use a system similar to UO. If more people are buying than selling, the NPC hedges his prices a little higher. If the market is glutted with harvesters the price dips. This could also reduce the broker clutter as people would no longer have to sell their 2c crap there. Of course it isn't just harvests this occurs on, but I don't have a problem with most other buying/reselling as the seller does get the price they asked for.

Bozidar

03-30-2007, 12:11 PM

Guillermo@Butcherblock wrote: <blockquote> It is ridiculous to think that the only source of these commodoties are other players.</blockquote> I know, since it's not. You can go there and get it yourself, just like anything that any player puts on the broker.

Natturabi

03-30-2007, 12:32 PM

<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guillermo@Butcherblock wrote: <blockquote> It is ridiculous to think that the only source of these commodoties are other players.</blockquote> I know, since it's not. You can go there and get it yourself, just like anything that any player puts on the broker.</blockquote> Yeah I missed the bit that anyone can go and get things for themselves. What I was trying to convey is that common commodities (perhaps even the rares?) only source should not be the player base. I know you can go down to Home Depot and get some landscaping rocks, you shouldn't have to personally go to the quarry with a pick and shovel or pay your neighbor for some of his harvested rocks. I doubt the Bayles hit the broker to buy 10 billion carbonite clusters off Joe Playercharacter to build their lovely castle!

SignumX

03-30-2007, 12:35 PM

Ethics , try this one i know someone who not only buys cheap items to tranmute so lowbies cant he buys anything he considers a good treasured item too so people will have to look at buying his mastercrafted gear.

Bozidar

03-30-2007, 01:36 PM

Guillermo@Butcherblock wrote: <blockquote> Yeah I missed the bit that anyone can go and get things for themselves. What I was trying to convey is that common commodities (perhaps even the rares?) only source should not be the player base. I know you can go down to Home Depot and get some landscaping rocks, you shouldn't have to personally go to the quarry with a pick and shovel or pay your neighbor for some of his harvested rocks. I doubt the Bayles hit the broker to buy 10 billion carbonite clusters off Joe Playercharacter to build their lovely castle! </blockquote> This isn't real life. EQ2 doesn't have a Home Depot. In EQ2 you have to go to the quarry. The dwarves working at the quarry give their ore to their company, who build nice walls and buildings in the area..like castles. if you want precious stones you're gonna have to go ole' school '49ers and get it yourself.The source of commodities above the level of what i would term "garbage" should be quests, and player base. If you can just go buy them from a vendor then they're not really commodities.

Bozidar

03-30-2007, 01:38 PM

<cite>SignumX wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ethics , try this one i know someone who not only buys cheap items to tranmute so lowbies cant he buys anything he considers a good treasured item too so people will have to look at buying his mastercrafted gear.</blockquote>so what?player A puts treasured item on the broker at a price he deems reasonablePlayer B buys said item. Both players are happy.Player C wants to have the item, but didn't get there first, and so he loses. Hopefully he goes out to get one of his own rather than chatting on the forum about the ethics involved with him being SOL.

Shadowtzer

03-30-2007, 01:51 PM

Ok since reading this never ending debate, I have changed the way I price my items. I do keep in mind that the lower levels may not be able to afford a T3 item if it is priced above 40g and so I try to keep the items in a structured price range now. I have in the recent past bought up lower priced items and added them to my inventory because I feel that they are being ridiculous by extreme undercutting but that is my choice to do and its my coin that I am using to do so, thus my right. I am a firm believer, however in supply and demand so some of my items may be priced at the higher end of the cost range if I know for a fact that an item is in high demand. I do regularly compare my prices with others since I would like my items to sell faster and have been known to pull items off as well if there are too many who have undercutted so much that the profit margin is lost, again my right as a manufacturer of goods. But that is what happens, not everyone thinks about pricing the same way as I do. My point here is that regardless of what other people do with their money and the market, it is their right. You all keep comparing to real life, but you need to remember that this is a game. Everyone here pays their monthly fee to play their game how they would like to, that is their right. Granted I disagree with people who price their items either a few copper above the suggested selling price, at that price or below but who am I to tell them how to play their game that they are paying for? Its them who will lose not me (unless I know its a high demand item and buy then out).

Laiina

03-30-2007, 02:11 PM

<cite>valkyrja wrote:</cite><blockquote>In a game where every item you can sell has an endless supply, I see nothing wrong with it. The fact is, if you have bought up all of an item and are charging more than people are willing to pay, they will farm it an undercut you. </blockquote> People seem to miss that part a lot though. Time after time I see phrases like "cornering the market". When there is an endless free supply of anything, that simply is not possible.You can place almost any item that is not super rare up on the broker, and within hours or even minutes, someone will undercut you.Sometimes they undercut you to the point of being ridiculous, like I see 10g 10g 9g 2s for a scarce item. If I see that, I buy the 2s one and reprice it at 7g or so.

Laiina

03-30-2007, 02:17 PM

Guillermo@Butcherblock wrote: <blockquote> In EQII it is much more easy to temporarily corner a market, and is actually pretty common....</blockquote> The key word here is "temporarily". I have seen several attempts to do so, and nearly all failed within minutes or a few hours at most.A while back one of the Loams hit ove 3g each. Since that was far above the actual "value" considering the time it takes to harvest etc, it was only about 8 hours before hordes of harvesters had driven the price back down to 6s or so. And I see that one person has over 1800 for sale at 2g. I would suspect that he got burned in an attempt to corner the market...

Und3rt0w

03-30-2007, 05:40 PM

<cite>SignumX wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ethics , try this one i know someone who not only buys cheap items to tranmute so lowbies cant he buys anything he considers a good treasured item too so people will have to look at buying his mastercrafted gear</blockquote>You know what's funny - I bet this happens a lot. On the AB broker, I've always wondered why there is so much crap Mastercrafted stuff on there now and so little superior treasured gear (as we the case when I was lvling my first character). Thankfully I'm out of that and into Legendary and Fabled gear with my main, but it sucks for my alts (until they hit tier 7).

mellowknees72

03-30-2007, 06:11 PM

Ruut Li wrote: <blockquote>zues your telling me Im getting too serious in this forum discussion? LOL! What about the person, for example, who relates broker activity in eq2 to terrorism in rl!? haha!</blockquote>It was Zues who used that example in the first place:ZUES wrote: <blockquote>Well I and my guildies have decided to take a stand against it. We had a long debate in our guild forums about it.Think of the United States with it's terrorism policy. Under NO circumstances will they give in to the demands of terrorists. How many terrorists or hijackers hit US planes, buses and transportaion any more? ZERO!So I'm sorry if it hurts individual honest peeps but it's just wrong and I wont support it.</blockquote>LOL...

Ruut Li

03-30-2007, 06:44 PM

oh ROFL! [Removed for Content] im lazy. Thanks pipes /blush <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />No wonder zues was upset with me.

liveja

03-30-2007, 09:04 PM

Guillermo@Butcherblock wrote: <blockquote>I know you can go down to Home Depot and get some landscaping rocks, you shouldn't have to personally go to the quarry with a pick and shovel or pay your neighbor for some of his harvested rocks.</blockquote>Um ... let me get this straight ... you want to go to an NPC & buy tradeskill stuff, that you could otherwise get for free merely by going out & picking it up off the ground?Aside from the very silliness of that notion, all by itself ... I can almost guarantee you would spend less buying from other players, even without going to the broker.As for cornering of markets: please get it straight. It cannot be done, in a world like EQ2, where valued commodities refresh themselves endlessly & can be had for the taking.

Lord_Quaymar

03-31-2007, 11:04 AM