Now with Weapon DR calculation!: Critical Damage and You.. A guide to critical damage. [Archive]

View Full Version : Now with Weapon DR calculation!: Critical Damage and You.. A guide to critical damage.

Rokjin

03-22-2007, 11:02 AM

Preface:I had originally believed Crits were a straight 30% damage boost. Due to the parses I have gathered for another post I have now been able to get the exact formula for damage added due to crits. I have placed the summary first for those not interested in the math. My method and calculations follow below it. This is a modification of my earlier thread on critical damage, with added information and made more applicable to all classes. This is a repost of the original thread from before the Forum Wipe, but I have edited and updated it a little.Summary: Raising your crit rate gives varying bonuses dependent on the Min:Max Damage ratio of your attack, and the nature of your attack. AUTO-ATTACK AND SPELLS FOLLOW THE MAX DAMAGE +1 to MAX DAMAGE * 1.3 RULE.HOWEVER COMBAT ARTS FOLLOW A STRAIGHT DAMAGE * 1.3 RULE.Obviously, this means that Auto-Attack and Spells gain more from Critical Hit Bonuses then Combat Arts. Most Weapons are 1:3 Ratio, giving a ~0.58% damage increase per point of crit. There are exceptions, and you can look on the below graphs to see the crit damage increase for your particular weapon. THIS IS INDEPENDENT OF WEAPON DELAY. I keep getting questions about how weapon delay affects this, but it does not. A weapon's Min:Max ratio has nothing to do with it's delay. There are 1:3 weapons with 1.6 delay and with 4.0 delay, and some outliers like Vraksakin club with ~1:400 ratio and 4.0 delay.It is also worth noting that Haste, DPS mod and Double attacks affect all weapons equally. If you do x*Crit*DPS*Haste*DA damage with weapon 1, you will do y*Crit*DPS*Haste*DA damage with weapon 2, with the DPS, Haste and DA mods affecting both the same way. The only thing that will vary is the base x and y damage of weapon's 1 and 2, and the Crit damage bonus if they have different Min:Max ratios.Combat Arts for all classes tested so far seem to give a straight 30% damage bost. Spells will vary by class, and I have done a rough look over most classes abilities to determine the most common ratios, using eq2idb.All Scouts, Warriors and Brawlers (Not Crusaders) will get a straight 0.30% boost on their Combat Arts per point of critical damage. Paladins and Shadowknights on their CAs will get a straight 0.30% boost, but also have spells mostly with a 3:5 and 4:5 ratio, getting somewhere between ~0.30-0.36% boot per crit. All Priests have the majority of their heals and spells as 1:1 (DOTs are 1:1) or 4:5 ratio. Thus, they will get almost a flat ~0.30% boost per crit.Sorcerers (Wizards and Warlock) seem to have mostly an odd 2.7:5 ratio, thus gaining ~0.45% boost per point of crit.All other mages mostly use 4:5 or 1:1 spells, gaining a pretty flat ~0.3% boost per point of crit.Any pets will benefit from crit bonus the same way their class does. IE: Scout Pets gain ~0.30% boost.I have graphed the critical damage function for min damage = 1, where y = the damage multiplier from 100% crit. x = max damage. You can see as the min:max ratio gets larger, so does the damage multiplier, though it tapers off, and if I continued the graph up to 1:100 Ratio and beyond, you would see it flatten out, maxing out at around a 1.1% boost in damage per critical %. THIS MEANS THAT THE BIGGEST POSSIBLE GAIN IS APPROXIMATELY +1.1% DAMAGE PER POINT OF CRIT. Only things with crazy ratios like 1:400 achieve this. This also means that if you ever find a weapon with a 1:1000 or even 1:100000 ratio, it's critical damage bonus will be about the same as a 1:400 weapon.<img src="http://matkun.googlepages.com/critgraph.png" border="0" alt="" width="800" height="571" />As you go across the bottom, the ratio increases from 1:1.3 up to 1:10.. This graph is good for Melee Weapons. Another graph that may be useful is for Spells. Since most seem to have a base of 5 Max damage, I created another graph, with Max damage kept constant at 5, and Min damage varying.<img src="http://matkun.googlepages.com/critgraph2.png" border="0" alt="" width="800" height="573" />As you go across the bottom, you can see the damage goes flat at 3.85:5, and beyond that it's just a 30% damage bonus. The lowest ratio on here is 1:5, with ~75% damage bonus. For any non-ca attack with a ratio of 1:X, you can use the first graph to determine the damage boost you get by looking at the X axis for the MAX Damage part of the ratio.For any non-ca attack with a ratio of X:5, you can use the second graph to determine the damage boost you get by looking at the X axis for the MIN Damage part of the ratio.To get your boost just multiply your crit rate percentage * your attack ratio damage modifier to get the increase in damage. The most useful thing out of that really is the two graphs, which you can use to easily read off the bonus damage from crits you would get with a particular attack.Examples for how to calculate how much damage you gain:I will cite two specific examples. 1) A Blade of the Bixies has a damage range of 22-65 displayed on it. 66/22 = 3, so it's a 1:3 Min:Max Damage ratio. So, looking at the first 1:X graph, you look at the point 3 on the x axis, and see where it intersects the line. So, looking at 3 on that graph, gives us that Y is ~1.58. This means that with 100% crit, you would do 58% more damage with that weapon.You can multiply your crit rate by the modifier.. so with 25% crit: (0.25*0.58 = 0.145). That means with 25% crit you would do 14.5% more damage.2) A Spell does 800-1334 damage. 1334/800 = 1.67, which times 3 to make it a whole number is 5. This means it's a 3:5 Min:Max Damage ratio spell. So, we look at the second graph X:5 graph, and look at the point 3 on the x axis. This gives us a Y value of ~1.36. This means that with 100% crit, you would do 36% more damage with that spell.Again, multiplying a 25% crit rate through, (0.25*0.36=0.09). So that means with 25% crit you would do 9% more damage with that spell.In essence it means, that the bigger the damage range on a non-ca attack, the more effective crits are at raising your damage. For a 3:5 attack, they only raise it by ~0.36% per point of crit. For a 1:3 attack, they raise it by almost twice as much, ~0.58% per point of crit. For a 1:9 attack, they raise it by a whopping ~0.88% per point of crit.So, you want to raise your critical % when you have lots of non-ca attacks that have a big damage range. As the damage range gets smaller, ie: 3:5 or 4:5, then each point of crit % adds less damage, flattening out at ~0.3%.So in short, critical attacks at the MINIMUM always do +30% damage, but with a bigger damage range, they can average out to +60% more damage or even +90% or more in extreme cases like 1:9.Going further, as a Swashbuckler, my weapon is 1:3 ratio, and most of my Combat arts at 3:5 damage range. Rogues can get ~14% bonus to crit from AAs and do about, one third of damage with auto-attack, and the other two thirds with combat arts, then my damage boost from 14% crit would be ~5-6%. (33% * (14% * 58%) + 67% * (14% * 30%).Crusaders for another example can get a 72% spell crit increase from AAs. Since most of their Spells are 4:5 or 1:1 ratio, and they do about one quarter auto-attack to three quarters Spell, their damage/healing boost from 72% crit would be ~18% (75% * (72%*~0.34%)).So you can then figure out the damage ratios of your own weapon and Spells, figure out how much damage you do with each, look up the ratios on the graphs to see the exact crit damage modifiers, and then multiply through to see how much more damage you would do with Crits.Example for how to calculate weapon Damage Rating after all mods (Crit, DPS, Haste and Double Attack):Adding Haste, DPS Mod and Double attacks follows a simple multiplication. IE: Above example of Blade of the Bixies, with say 50% Crit chance (0.58 * 50% = +29% damage from crits), 100% effective DPS boost (which occurs at about ~114 DPS mod), 75% Haste (~76 Haste mod) and 70% Double attack.It's base DR is 60.2 so we have:New DR = Base DR * Crit damage bonus * DPS * Haste * DANew DR = 60.2 * 1.29 * 2 * 1.75 * 1.7 = 462Yes, this is correct, due to the multiplicative nature of auto-attack damage bonuses, with all those mods you are doing 1.29*2*1.75*1.7 = ~7.7 times your base auto-attack damage!The absolute highest possible multiplier you can get to your auto attack would be using a weapon like the Vraksakin War Club (ie: Huge ratio).. With 100% crit chance (which gives 1.1 * 100 = 110% damage), 125% effective DPS boost (at 200 DPS mod), 125% Haste (at 200 Haste mod) and 100% Double Attack, you would do:2.1 * 2.25 * 2.25 * 2 = 21 times your weapon's base damage... Now that's a painful auto-attack.Miscellaneous:Generally, those with lots of non-ca attacks that are 3:5 or higher damage range, can expect ~30% or so bonus to damage from 100% crit, while those with lots of attacks that are lower then that, can expect ~50-80% or so bonus damage from 100% crit.It is worth noting that the classes that benefit the most from crit boosts are Warriors, Brawlers and Sorcerers. Sorcerers due to their Spells and Warriors and Brawlers due to the large amount of auto-attack damage they do. I have posted my Mathematical Analysis below this post. Please feel free to post any comments/questions/feedback. Edit: Jan 1, 2008: Added example modified weapon DR calculation at end and explained the power of auto-attack multipliers.

Rokjin

03-22-2007, 11:22 AM

Mathematical Analysis below:Methodology:No AA's in effect except for stat boost ones. No Combat Abilities were used, no combat haste/dps modifiers, no procs of any kind. Used only Defensive Stance (effective 333 Slashing skill). STR was at 325 throughout entire test. I was level 70 when this test was done.The mobs used for the test were "a juvenile lava crawler" in Lavastorm, all level 43 and ^^^ ups, with no debuffs on them.No buffs affected me during any of the parsing.This provides a direct baseline comparison for 1H vs DW damage and the crits for both. Ripostes were removed from the parse due to them using a different formula then auto-attack. This parsing was done PRE-GU32, but I do not believe the results would be changed if they were done now.Weapons used were: indium assault axe and 2x indium spatha. Both vendor bought. The 1H axe has 31.9 DR, the DWs have 23.9 DR each, giving a total DR of 47.8. 1000 hits with each weapon, delay of all weapons used is 1.6. 2000 Hits were used for Dual-wield, since that is equivalent to 1000 hits of the 1H. Parsing was done with ACT version 1.81.Results from 1H (31.9 DR, 1.6 delay, 1000 hits) (Min-Max damage ratio on all weapons used is 1:3) Non-Crits:Min hit: 32Average Hit: 65Max Hit: 96Crits:Min hit: 97Average hit: 101Max hit: 125# of Crits: 112Results from DW(23.9*2 DR (47.8) , 1.6 delay, 2000 hits) Non-Crits: Min hit: 24Average Hit: 48Max Hit: 72Crits:Min hit: 73Average hit: 76Max hit: 94# of Crits: 197From this we can see that on average, crits were ~55-58% higher then the average non-crit on auto-attack.The devs have stated base crit rate is 1%, however Crit rate in this test seemed to be at ~10%. Considering I have nothing boosting it, it may just be an effect of the ~27 level difference between me and the mob I did the parsing on. The Crit rate is irrelevant to this discussion though, as we are looking at the crit damage, not crit rate.We can also see that the damage ratio is 1:3 (72/24 = 3 for DW and 96/32 = 3 for 1H). For CAs you can just take the displayed max damage, divide it by the min damage, and get a decimal, multiply that by 10 to get a ratio of x:10. Then you can reduce it to 3:5 or 4:5 (which most CAs seem to be)Calculations:Now we can start looking at things analytically and verify whether this is expected.Most melee weapons seem to have a damage range of x to 3x. This is confirmed with the weapons in the above test, as well as a Blade of the Bixies.Using the crit formula Crit damage = Max damage +1 to Max Damage * 1.3, then this gives us a possible crit range of: 3x to 3x*1.3 = 3.9x Taking x = 1 to simply things, we have the following figures: Normal damage range = 1-3 Crit damage range = 3-3.9The key thing is that any damage roll that is a crit, ie: hit for 1, add 30% since it's a crit = 1.3, is adjusted up to 3. How can we quantify this? Any normal hit below 2.3 that crits, is adjusted up to 3. Assuming a linear spread of hits, then 65% of hits will be 2.3 or below. (1.3/2 = 0.65) Thus we have that 65% of crits will do 3 damage, while the other 35% will do 3 to 3.9, with an average of 3.45 ((3+3.9)/2 = 3.45). Thus the average crit will be = 65% * 3 + 35% * 3.45 = 3.1575 ~= 3.16.Then the damage boost from a crit is average crit damage / average damage = 58%.This corresponds to the parse data. From this then we can see that each 1% of crit, gives you 0.58% more auto-attack damage with a 1-3 ratio weapon. As far as I can determine, the MAJORITY of weapons are 1:3 Ratio.This means that for most melee weapons, your auto-attack damage will be increased by 0.58% per each point of Crit you raise your crit chance. There are exceptions, most notably in KoS, with weapons such as the Blackscale Maul and Bow of Bylze, that can gain from 0.70-0.90% per each point of crit, obviously you will be doing more damage on average with your crits using these weapons.Bows seem to be different, some having 1:5 ratio, others having 1:3 and other having even 1:9. The smaller the ratio, the more damage boost you get from crits, since a larger amount of 'low crits' will be adjusted up to the max damage of the weapon.For example for a 1:5 ratio weapon the math would give:Damage range = 1-5, crit damage range = 5-6.5, average normal hit = 3. Any normal hit for less then ~3.85 will be adjusted up. This means that ~71% of all normal hits that crit will be adjusted up to max damage. so then average crit damage is 71% * 5 + 29% * 5.75 = ~5.22. Then damage boost from crit = 74%.This means that for a weapon with 1:5 Ratio, 1% of crit will add 0.74% more auto-attack damage.Now we can look at Spells. Let's take a look at 3-5 first.Normal damage range = 3-5, crit damage range = 5-6.5, average normal hit = 4. Any normal hit for less then ~3.85 is against adjusted up. In this case this means only 42% (0.85/2) of all normal hits that crit are adjusted up to max damage. So Average crit damage is 42% * 5 + 58% * 5.75 = ~5.44, then damage boost from crit is 5.44/4 = 36%.Finally we have the 4:5 ratio, which I will cover because it is an interesting case.Normal damage range is 4-5, crit damage range is 5.2-6.5. Yes, the lowest possible crit is LARGER then max damage. That's because the lowest possible normal hit 4 * 30% = 5.2, which is already larger then max normal damage. This case is simple then since every hit will be adjusted up by a straight 30%. So for 4:5 CAs, the crit increase is a straight 0.30% per crit point.So, for any non-ca attack whose damage ratio is LARGER then ~3.85/5 = 77:100 ratio, the Crit increase is a straight 30%. For any attack with a damage ratio LOWER then that the crit increase is larger then 30%. A 1:10 damage ratio weapon would have a crit increase of nearly 0.9% per crit point. As the ratio gets smaller and smaller, the crit continues to increase, flattening out, to a maximum possible damage boost of ~1.07% per point of crit.It is worth pointing out also then, since DOTs are a 1:1 ratio, they fall into the straight 30% increase category.The actual calculation for finding this is: f(max,min) = ((((max/1.3)-min)/(max-min))*(max)+(1-(((max/1.3)-min)/(max-min)))*(1.15*max))/((max+min)/2)Where max and min are the max and min damage ratios. IE: For most melee weapons, max = 3, min = 1. As a note, this equation is only valid for max > = 1.3 * min. When max is less then 1.3 * min, then every single possible critical will be above maximum damage, and the ratio that is used in the function will blow up. In those cases, it's easy to see that Crit increase is exactly 0.3% per point.To break this function down, the first part: ((max/1.3)-min)/(max-min))*(max) determines what percentage of your crits will hit for max damage + 1 (~max damage) and multiplies that by the max damage. This is the (max damage + 1) part of the average crit damage.The second part: (1-(((max/1.3)-min)/(mad-min)))*(1.15*max)) is the other percentage of crits that will hit for the average crit damage (ie: (max damage + max damage * 1.3)/2 = 1.15 * max damage.The third part ((max+min)/2) is just the average damage of the weapon's normal hits, which we divide the sum of the first two parts by to get the damage boost (assuming 100% crit). This sums up the mathematical calculation. I plotted this function in the summary at the top of this post. In addition, Raidi Sovin'faile has done extensive CA parsing and has determined that combat arts do not follow the max damage +1 rule. His posts have been erased due to the forum wipe unfortunately.Thank you for reading, and I hope you enjoyed my analysis. Please post any feedback/comments/questions below. Edit: Dec 29, 2007: Fixed typo in formula (wrote mad instead of max). All this still holds in RoK btw.

Kurindor_Mythecnea

03-22-2007, 11:22 AM

Awesome statistical purveying <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Something I'd also be interested in would be how significantly fortitude among techniques contributes to your proclivity for higher damage hits along with reduction in misses.

Rokjin

03-22-2007, 11:27 AM

<cite>Kurindor_Mythecnea wrote:</cite><blockquote>Awesome statistical purveying <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Something I'd also be interested in would be how significantly fortitude among techniques contributes to your proclivity for higher damage hits along with reduction in misses. </blockquote> If you mean whether Adepts or Masters tend to hit nearer to max damage, I do not believe that happens. I have not looked at it exactly, but I think it's a pretty linear spread. As for missing less, you can see the Hit Bonus on the CA/Spell directly.And if your trying to poke fun, well then <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Kurindor_Mythecnea

03-22-2007, 11:29 AM

Leanan@Venekor wrote: <blockquote><cite>Kurindor_Mythecnea wrote:</cite><blockquote>Awesome statistical purveying <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Something I'd also be interested in would be how significantly fortitude among techniques contributes to your proclivity for higher damage hits along with reduction in misses. </blockquote> If you mean whether Adepts or Masters tend to hit nearer to max damage, I do not believe that happens. I have not looked at it exactly, but I think it's a pretty linear spread. As for missing less, you can see the Hit Bonus on the CA/Spell directly.And if your trying to poke fun, well then <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote> I'm not. Aaaaand...I wasn't mentioning CA/S quality -- technique fortitude equates to skill levels. <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Rokjin

03-22-2007, 11:36 AM

<cite>Kurindor_Mythecnea wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not. Aaaaand...I wasn't mentioning CA/S quality -- technique fortitude equates to skill levels. <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote>Higher skill = you hit more. As far as I can tell, it's a diminishing returns curve up to the (455, 450?) cap, atleast against your level. Against Greens, it's even more diminishing. Against Yellows/Oranges, it's an INCREASING returns, because to a Yellow/Orange, you are near the bottom of the curve, as opposed to the top.Damage-wise for stats, I cap my offensive skill first, then STR, THEN work on crits, since they add the least out of those.

Kurindor_Mythecnea

03-22-2007, 11:59 AM

You're 100% sure it doesn't make you hit at the higher top of your damage range with a greater reliability...cause it really should <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. I'm level 25 though, so I don't know if the skill of a level 90 player would, uh, be realistic for me.

Rokjin

03-22-2007, 12:12 PM

<cite>Kurindor_Mythecnea wrote:</cite><blockquote>You're 100% sure it doesn't make you hit at the higher top of your damage range with a greater reliability...cause it really should <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. I'm level 25 though, so I don't know if the skill of a level 90 player would, uh, be realistic for me. </blockquote> There's no reason to believe it would, and I have not seen anything to indicate that it does.

Kurindor_Mythecnea

03-22-2007, 12:50 PM

So a level 30 would hit a level 15 for the same damage as a level 22 if the 22 had 150 skill points in Crushing, Slashing, Piercing, or Disruption (given they both had the same class, flat statistics, and Damage Rated weapon as the other)?

Malchore

03-22-2007, 03:30 PM

AUTO-ATTACK AND SPELLS FOLLOW THE MAX DAMAGE +1 to MAX DAMAGE * 1.3 RULE.HOWEVER COMBAT ARTS FOLLOW A STRAIGHT DAMAGE * 1.3 RULE.I remember this post back before SOE changed the forum software and deleted all the previous threads in the combat discussion. The issue back then was the assertion that Combat Arts follow a strait damage * 1.3 rule. Numerous screenshots of parses were provided that proved the assertion wrong.Also, it appears all autoattack testing was done with only melee weapons. I can tell you that Bows happen to have a rather giant critical potential. My bow (Rain Caller) has a 1:5 ratio with 389 being the top damage. And I can critical an autoattack hit for around 1200 damage using handcrafted adamantine broadhead arrows.

Dasto

03-22-2007, 05:06 PM

Holy number geek batman,,,,,dude you bored or what?

Rokjin

03-22-2007, 05:22 PM

<cite>Kurindor_Mythecnea wrote:</cite><blockquote>So a level 30 would hit a level 15 for the same damage as a level 22 if the 22 had 150 skill points in Crushing, Slashing, Piercing, or Disruption (given they both had the same class, flat statistics, and Damage Rated weapon as the other)? </blockquote> The only thing that affects how much damage someone takes from you is their mit. Given that the level 15 would have an inherent mit penalty (since it's being compared to someone 15 levels above them, while the level 22 would only be compared to someone 8 levels above them.) in comparison to the level 22, the level 15 would get hit for more. Even if their mit totals were the same somehow.Malchore wrote: <blockquote>I remember this post back before SOE changed the forum software and deleted all the previous threads in the combat discussion. The issue back then was the assertion that Combat Arts follow a strait damage * 1.3 rule. Numerous screenshots of parses were provided that proved the assertion wrong.Also, it appears all autoattack testing was done with only melee weapons. I can tell you that Bows happen to have a rather giant critical potential. My bow (Rain Caller) has a 1:5 ratio with 389 being the top damage. And I can critical an autoattack hit for around 1200 damage using handcrafted adamantine broadhead arrows. </blockquote>No.. my original assertion, which was proved wrong was that Combat arts followed the same rules as auto-attack and spells. I was proven wrong by those parses. See my last line in the summary post: "In addition, Raidi Sovin'faile has done extensive CA parsing and has determined that combat arts do not follow the max damage +1 rule. His posts have been erased due to the forum wipe unfortunately."IE.. a combat art that crits CAN hit for below max damage.. It's damage is just multiplied by 1.3 when it is critical.I do not think you read the entirety also.. since I specifically mention that 1:5 ratio and so on weapons gain more damage from criticals. Here is the quote from my post specifically looking at 1:5:"For example for a 1:5 ratio weapon the math would give:Damage range = 1-5, crit damage range = 5-6.5, average normal hit = 3. Any normal hit for less then ~3.85 will be adjusted up. This means that ~71% of all normal hits that crit will be adjusted up to max damage. so then average crit damage is 71% * 5 + 29% * 5.75 = ~5.22. Then damage boost from crit = 74%."

Cedric Quindiniar

03-22-2007, 07:00 PM

<cite>Malchore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Also, it appears all autoattack testing was done with only melee weapons. I can tell you that Bows happen to have a rather giant critical potential. My bow (Rain Caller) has a 1:5 ratio with 389 being the top damage. And I can critical an autoattack hit for around 1200 damage using handcrafted adamantine broadhead arrows. </blockquote> The Rain Caller is a 1:3 ratio bow, I'm not sure where your getting 1:5 from... The reason your seeing critical hits substantially higher than the max damage listed on your bow is because the item inspect window does not list your weapon damage after strength modifiers.

Rokjin

03-23-2007, 05:48 PM

Cedric Quindiniar wrote: <blockquote><cite>Malchore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Also, it appears all autoattack testing was done with only melee weapons. I can tell you that Bows happen to have a rather giant critical potential. My bow (Rain Caller) has a 1:5 ratio with 389 being the top damage. And I can critical an autoattack hit for around 1200 damage using handcrafted adamantine broadhead arrows. </blockquote> The Rain Caller is a 1:3 ratio bow, I'm not sure where your getting 1:5 from... The reason your seeing critical hits substantially higher than the max damage listed on your bow is because the item inspect window does not list your weapon damage after strength modifiers. </blockquote> Agreed.. /weaponstats is everyone's friend.

Raidi Sovin'faile

03-24-2007, 03:57 AM

Also, you really have to test in a closed environment... if you start tossing around debuffs and group buffs, and such, you will get astronomically different numbers than what's listed.Basically.. don't use your raid buffed, temp buffed, crit on a mob that's been hit with dispatch and any number of other debuffs, as factual evidence.And yeah, I remember this post from before. I shoulda saved my info, it was a lot of nice parsing. Oh well, I get my mentions (posting as my character now, but this is still Raidi).Nice!

CrazyPaladin2

03-27-2007, 03:01 AM

Leanan@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>AUTO-ATTACK AND SPELLS FOLLOW THE MAX DAMAGE +1 to MAX DAMAGE * 1.3 RULE.</blockquote>I'm not exactly understanding why ratio for a weapon (for some classes and crit percentages) is important if the above statement is true.Are you saying a weapon with higher ratio will get a higher boost of dps per crit% than one with a lower ratio? Does that mean ratio is more important than avg base damage of weapon?I was looking at 2 great weapons, both with 4 delay. Grinning Dirk of Horror 24-215 base (avg base 119.5) and Bisected Saber 65-196 base (avg base 130.5).To me it's obvious with max+1 to max * 1.3 the GDoH benefits more from crits than BS does. Without crits the GDoH is at the mercy of the rng. It could hit really high or fairly low. Now I stress benefits more because it seems to me the BS could perform as well as GDoH depending on the crit% of the person using it.I'm mainly trying to understand while looking for a weapon that will provide the most dps whether you are saying ratio trumps all given similar weapons or it just helps one more than another.I would think for an assassin that can get crit ranges from high teens and twenties (aa's and crit gear) to thirties (bard, potion, etc) that the weapons I mention would be fairly comparable in dps provided. Obviously the more GDoH crits (and the more mobs are debuffed when it crits) the farther it can pull away in dps from the BS, but while not criting the BS will do better damage.So what do you think? Given a lets say 25% crit percentage will the GDoH's 19 higher max damage provide more dps ZW than BS?

Raidi Sovin'faile

03-27-2007, 07:59 AM

Say you have two weapons:Weapon 1: 45-55 damageWeapon 2: 1-100 damageThey both do average 50 damage per hit. But here's the crit range:Weapon 1: 56-71.5 damageWeapon 2: 101-130 damage So, that's what is meant by a larger range ratio (1:3 < 1:4 < 1:5) results in a lot more from your crits.That is all that is being said here, so don't read more into it than needed. Delay has no bearing on this part of the equation (although it can be a factor in a lot of other aspects of combat and weapon selection).

Rokjin

03-27-2007, 10:11 AM

CrazyPaladin2 wrote: <blockquote>I'm not exactly understanding why ratio for a weapon (for some classes and crit percentages) is important if the above statement is true.Are you saying a weapon with higher ratio will get a higher boost of dps per crit% than one with a lower ratio? Does that mean ratio is more important than avg base damage of weapon?I was looking at 2 great weapons, both with 4 delay. Grinning Dirk of Horror 24-215 base (avg base 119.5) and Bisected Saber 65-196 base (avg base 130.5).To me it's obvious with max+1 to max * 1.3 the GDoH benefits more from crits than BS does. Without crits the GDoH is at the mercy of the rng. It could hit really high or fairly low. Now I stress benefits more because it seems to me the BS could perform as well as GDoH depending on the crit% of the person using it.I'm mainly trying to understand while looking for a weapon that will provide the most dps whether you are saying ratio trumps all given similar weapons or it just helps one more than another.I would think for an assassin that can get crit ranges from high teens and twenties (aa's and crit gear) to thirties (bard, potion, etc) that the weapons I mention would be fairly comparable in dps provided. Obviously the more GDoH crits (and the more mobs are debuffed when it crits) the farther it can pull away in dps from the BS, but while not criting the BS will do better damage.So what do you think? Given a lets say 25% crit percentage will the GDoH's 19 higher max damage provide more dps ZW than BS?</blockquote>A weapon with a lower (1:5 compared to 1:3 (1/5 = 0.25, 1/3 = 0.33, so 0.25 is the lower)) ratio WILL get more of a DPS boost from a given crit % then a weapon with a lower rate.Whether that makes up for lower comparitive DR is another matter, and dependent on each person. But we can quantify that with the post I wrote.Comparing:Grinning Dirk of Horror: 1:9 ratio, looking at 1:X graph, that is ~0.87% damage boost per 1% of crit.Bisected Sabre: 1:3 ratio (quite normal for most melee weapons), which is ~0.58% damage boost per 1% of crit.So Grinning Dirk with 10% crit, will do 8.7% more damage then normal, while Bisected Sabre with 10% crit will do 5.8% more damage then normal.Now to figure out at what crit rate the Dirk 'catches up' to the Saber.Dirk Damage = 119.5 * (1 + Crit % * 0.87)Saber Damage = 130.5 * (1 + Crit % * 0.58)let those equal, and Crit % = x for ease of calculation and you get119.5 * (1 + 0.87*x) = 130.5 * (1 + 0.58*x) .. simplifying103.965*x - 75.69*x = 130.5 - 119.5x = 11/28.275 = 0.389So.. the Dirk equals the Saber in damage when you have ~38.9% crit chance. At that point, Dirk is gaining ~33.84% more damage from Crits and the Saber is gaining ~22.56% more damage from critsSo.. Base average hit from Grinning Dirk = 119.5 * 1.3384 = ~159.94 base average hit with crits counted in.Bisected Sabre = 130.5 * 1.22562 = ~159.94 base average hit with crits counted in.So in short.. if a person has MORE THAN 39% crit chance, the Grinning Dirk of Horror will do more damage then the Sabre. If the person has LESS than 39% crit chance, the Sabre will do more. This is ignoring the stats on both weapons, and looking purely at the damage they hit for. Stats differences will modify this, though not hugely.You really have to have high Crit % to overcome big differences in damage ratings between weapons. I'm finding it more and more true now that to maximize damage people should tailor their AA specs to the weapons they HAVE, as opposed to SEEKING weapons tailored to their AA spec.So to answer your question, given 25% crit percentage, the Saber will still do more damage on average.

TeflonS7

03-28-2007, 08:40 AM

Some pretty extensive testing you got there. I'm heading to work soon and can't really pour over it, but I will when I get home. What I really would like to know is if it is worth it to chuck out 22pts of STR for +2% ranged/melee crit chance from my set armor pieces (ranger).

Raidi Sovin'faile

03-28-2007, 04:44 PM

That would entirely depend on your current Strength score, after buffs. Since you get diminishing returns after ~500, and neglible effect after ~750, it's quite possible the 2% crit could help more than 22 strength. Also, another thing to keep in mind... everyone and their mom can buff strength it seems. I can think of half a dozen classes off the top of my head, let alone adornments, potions, procs, etc. Crits on the other hand, have maybe 1 or 2 items and only 1 class that I can think of right now (DKTM from a Bard with that AA spec). So even if your personal buffed Strength is still low enough to benefit from it... if you are going to play/raid with strength buffing folks, you might want to pump the crit.

TeflonS7

03-28-2007, 06:26 PM

Duly noted. My solo, unbuffed str is 484 and I'm usually paired with a zerker on raids. Gonna try out the Kithicor bonus. I just wish the head slot was a dang hood and not another stupid looking cowl.

CrazyPaladin2

03-30-2007, 09:03 AM

Thank you for the reply and the time you put into analyzing critical damage!I have another question you may have the answer to. All things being averaged and normalized, do you know of or have a formula for +x% spell/heal crit = +y increase damage/heal to spells.Even an estimation would be useful to figure out whether swapping a "Increase Damage Spell Crit Chance of caster by 1.0%" is equal/greater/less than "Increase damage done by spells by up to 20." for example.

Rokjin

03-30-2007, 04:11 PM

<cite>CrazyPaladin2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thank you for the reply and the time you put into analyzing critical damage!I have another question you may have the answer to. All things being averaged and normalized, do you know of or have a formula for +x% spell/heal crit = +y increase damage/heal to spells.Even an estimation would be useful to figure out whether swapping a "Increase Damage Spell Crit Chance of caster by 1.0%" is equal/greater/less than "Increase damage done by spells by up to 20." for example.</blockquote> Well, as I wrote in original post.. 4:5 and 1:1 damage spells/heals (as far as I know all heals are 1:1 ratio, except for a few special things like the Monk and Paladin big heals), is a straight 0.3% increase per 1% crit.So, the +y increase you get from +x% crit, depends on the amount of heal/spell.On a 1000 1:1 ratio heal, 1% crit = 0.3%, turning that into a 1030 heal on average. So it would be worth +30 on that spell. On a 500 spell, it would only be worth +15.For 3:5 ratio, it's ~0.36% increase per 1% crit, so the numbers change appropriately.Keep in mind also +y increase bonuses give that same amount for any spell (I am basing this on the +CA damage bonuses I use, which do not normalize to cast time), and guarantee consistent results. +crit % will vary based on the spell and will make the increase spiky. IE: You'll mostly be healing for 1000, then occasionally for 1300.I am not sure also if +y increase to damage/spells is normalized to casting time. If it is, then that complicates things a bit as it will vary based on the spell you are using.

Sapphira

04-16-2007, 02:31 PM

Stickied by request

Skivley101

04-16-2007, 03:52 PM

I know this is off topic , But i did some testing and tried to post the results in my class forum.But the weapon dmg mod is giving me problems to come up with solid numbers.Question to the OP or any others that wish to comment:was wondering if you could have a look and tell me if there is anything obvious im doing wrong?<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=347145" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=347145</a>guess i still need to learn how to post links .... but here's the URL ....didnt want to clutter your thread with my chart.

Skivley101

04-16-2007, 03:54 PM

well what do ya know <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I can post links

Ameniel

04-16-2007, 06:59 PM

The OP made my head hurt...but I think it's safe to say that more crits = more gooder.

Elephanton

04-17-2007, 11:11 AM

Leanan@Venekor wrote: <blockquote>AUTO-ATTACK AND SPELLS FOLLOW THE MAX DAMAGE +1 to MAX DAMAGE * 1.3 RULE.HOWEVER COMBAT ARTS FOLLOW A STRAIGHT DAMAGE * 1.3 RULE.</blockquote>I'd like to question the statement in the very first post of this thread.I don't believe the above-quoted is true, and here's why.My SK has an AOE DOT *spell* with fixed damage, and it always crits for fixed critical damage as well (x 1.3 of original damage), meaning that for spells, critical damage is calculated this way: STRAIGHT DAMAGE * 1.3 RULE, and not what OP states above. Othewise, if the above was true, the damage would vary for every crit.

Rokjin

04-17-2007, 12:26 PM

<cite>ElephantonRU wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'd like to question the statement in the very first post of this thread.I don't believe the above-quoted is true, and here's why.My SK has an AOE DOT *spell* with fixed damage, and it always crits for fixed critical damage as well (x 1.3 of original damage), meaning that for spells, critical damage is calculated this way: STRAIGHT DAMAGE * 1.3 RULE, and not what OP states above. Othewise, if the above was true, the damage would vary for every crit.</blockquote> If you read further in, I do actually state that 1:1 ratio spells, ie: fixed damage, obviously are a straight 1.3x... Same with 4:5 ratio. Anything 3.75:5 ratio and above, will always get a flat 30% bonus, because the lowest number it can hit for is still more then the max.I can see how my statement could be misinterpreted though. Would you say that the follow up text covers that sufficiently or do you want me to actually change the top statements?

Kaleyen

04-17-2007, 12:33 PM

This thread has made me realize one thing: I need to get a new weapon.

Skivley101

04-17-2007, 01:48 PM

LOL... I was just gona post that info about the dot__________________________________________________ ________________________________All Priests have the majority of their heals and spells as 1:1 (DOTs are 1:1) or 4:5 ratio. Thus, they will get almost a flat ~0.30% boost per crit.__________________________________________________ ________________________________maybe i noticed it becuz im a priest.....But on the question of my thread on the weapon dmg mod .....you seemed to miss...my chart was showing about 1.4Xlisted dmg with 444 str ....but then about 2 weeks later i get a 1.83 with 444 str.But then i think i figured it out ....maybe i never did my first testing with the Black scale maul.Thanx for this informative thread .... even though its taken me a little time to digest it <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Elephanton

04-17-2007, 05:08 PM

Leanan@Venekor wrote: <blockquote><cite>ElephantonRU wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'd like to question the statement in the very first post of this thread.I don't believe the above-quoted is true, and here's why.My SK has an AOE DOT *spell* with fixed damage, and it always crits for fixed critical damage as well (x 1.3 of original damage), meaning that for spells, critical damage is calculated this way: STRAIGHT DAMAGE * 1.3 RULE, and not what OP states above. Othewise, if the above was true, the damage would vary for every crit.</blockquote> If you read further in, I do actually state that 1:1 ratio spells, ie: fixed damage, obviously are a straight 1.3x... Same with 4:5 ratio. Anything 3.75:5 ratio and above, will always get a flat 30% bonus, because the lowest number it can hit for is still more then the max.I can see how my statement could be misinterpreted though. Would you say that the follow up text covers that sufficiently or do you want me to actually change the top statements?</blockquote>I see, sorry. Most people would only read a summary in bold text, without going into further details. If you mofidy a summary a bit, this would definitely help. Thank you.

bambinu

05-07-2007, 08:12 PM

Sorry to bother you all. I have read all this post and have been very captivated by the depth of the maths and analysis involved. I think I have got the significance of all the major points except to these following points that I am not sure. <blockquote>Assuming a linear spread of hits, then 65% of hits will be 2.3 or below. (1.3/2 = 0.65) Thus we have that 65% of crits will do 3 damage, while the other 35% will do 3 to 3.9, with an average of 3.45 ((3+3.9)/2 = 3.45). Thus the average crit will be = 65% * 3 + 35% * 3.45 = 3.1575 ~= 3.16. </blockquote> From where is the 65% and the other data in the above quote derived? <blockquote>I was looking at 2 great weapons, both with 4 delay. Grinning Dirk of Horror 24-215 base (avg base 119.5) and Bisected Saber 65-196 base (avg base 130.5).</blockquote> CrazyPaladin2 was looking for these two weapons. My question is how do u work out the average base dmg as I cannot find it and when I tried to work the solution backwards I got some pretty uneven answers. Thanks for your assistance.

Rokjin

05-07-2007, 09:07 PM

<cite>bambinu wrote:</cite><blockquote> <blockquote>Assuming a linear spread of hits, then 65% of hits will be 2.3 or below. (1.3/2 = 0.65) Thus we have that 65% of crits will do 3 damage, while the other 35% will do 3 to 3.9, with an average of 3.45 ((3+3.9)/2 = 3.45). Thus the average crit will be = 65% * 3 + 35% * 3.45 = 3.1575 ~= 3.16. </blockquote> From where is the 65% and the other data in the above quote derived? </blockquote>The weapon that I am considering there has a damage of 1-3.. Any critical hit that would be less than 3 after being multiplied by 1.3 is brought up to 3. So to figure out at which point a hit is brought up, I take 3 / 1.3 = 2.3. So any hit below 2.3 is adjusted up to 3, right?Okay, so now we have to figure out what percentage of the hits from 1-3 will be below 2.3. To figure out the percentage, we have to convert that to a 0-1 range. Subtracting 1 from both sides, we get 0-2 and any hit below 1.3 will be adjusted up. So to get 0-1, we have to divide both sides by 2.. This gives us a 0-1 damage range, and 1.3 / 2 = 0.65. So.. 65% of the time the weapon will hit at or below 2.3. Thus 65% of crits will do 3 damage. Since 65% of crits do 3 damage, the other 35% of hits (2.3 - 3 damage) which converts to 3-3.9 crits.Taking the average of those two numbers.. the average of 3 is ofcourse 3.. and the average of 3-3.9 is (3+3.9) / 2 which gives 3.45.So, 65% of the time it will hit for 3, the other 35% for 3.45.. which works out to ~3.16 on average. bambinu wrote: <blockquote> <blockquote>I was looking at 2 great weapons, both with 4 delay. Grinning Dirk of Horror 24-215 base (avg base 119.5) and Bisected Saber 65-196 base (avg base 130.5).</blockquote> CrazyPaladin2 was looking for these two weapons. My question is how do u work out the average base dmg as I cannot find it and when I tried to work the solution backwards I got some pretty uneven answers. Thanks for your assistance.</blockquote>The avg base of 119.5 and 130.5 quoted? That's easy.. like any other average.. add the min to the max, divide by 2.. So for GDoH, (24 + 215) / 2 = 119.5. Same for Bisected Saber.

bambinu

05-08-2007, 04:23 AM

Thanks for the detailed answer. I seem to have got all the maths involved now.

Grimwell

07-06-2007, 08:55 PM

At the authors request, I'm removing the sticky from this thread as it's out of date.

Zygwen

07-06-2007, 10:25 PM

<cite>Grimwell wrote:</cite><blockquote>At the authors request, I'm removing the sticky from this thread as it's out of date.</blockquote> Um, as far as I know, the formulas he posted are still valid. I have not seen any post by devs stating that the combat system is going through another overhaul that would change these formulas. If someone knows for sure that this information is out of date could you kindly point me to where it was stated. Thanks

Dimgl

07-09-2007, 01:10 AM

<cite>Zygwen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Grimwell wrote:</cite><blockquote>At the authors request, I'm removing the sticky from this thread as it's out of date.</blockquote> Um, as far as I know, the formulas he posted are still valid. I have not seen any post by devs stating that the combat system is going through another overhaul that would change these formulas. If someone knows for sure that this information is out of date could you kindly point me to where it was stated. Thanks </blockquote> It's not out of date actually. I'm not the author, but speaking on his behalf (I'm his GM and RL friend.) He can't speak on the boards atm because his account has already went out of service. Grimwell may have misunderstood- We wanted all of our guides unstickied because we didn't want them to age to the point where they contained out of date information. As of right now it may be up to date, but with the author(s) taking extended game breaks, you never know when the information become a pile of misinformation which lead others to bad decisions. That is why we had all of our guides unstickied.

Saurine

08-06-2007, 02:29 PM

I am all messed up on how Crist realy work. Maybe information overload, but maybe one of you brainiacks can figure it out and help me with it. Bow (wind shaped bow) { Unbuffed } Base Damage: 217 - 652 Actual Damage: 625 - 1,874 Actual Delay 4.1 Proc Percent:21.0% Procs Per Minute: 1.7 { Buffed } Base Damage: 373 - 1,119 Actual Damage: 1,073 - 3,218 Actual Delay 3.1 Proc Percent:21.0% Procs Per Minute: 1.7 My different ranged crits. Unbuffed: 31% Focus Aim: 76% Trueshot: 41% Focus Aim+Trueshot: 86% With that info what would my crits be like according to the above mentioned post. Thnx, Saurine

jarlaxle8

08-07-2007, 10:55 AM

<cite>Saurine wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am all messed up on how Crist realy work. Maybe information overload, but maybe one of you brainiacks can figure it out and help me with it. Bow (wind shaped bow) { Unbuffed } Base Damage: 217 - 652 Actual Damage: 625 - 1,874 Actual Delay 4.1 Proc Percent:21.0% Procs Per Minute: 1.7 { Buffed } Base Damage: 373 - 1,119 Actual Damage: 1,073 - 3,218 Actual Delay 3.1 Proc Percent:21.0% Procs Per Minute: 1.7 My different ranged crits. Unbuffed: 31% Focus Aim: 76% Trueshot: 41% Focus Aim+Trueshot: 86% With that info what would my crits be like according to the above mentioned post. Thnx, Saurine </blockquote>Yor Wind Shaped Bow has a ratio between High-Damage and Low-Damage of 3:1. That's the same ratio as the OP gave in his example, so the damage rating gain would be 58% for 100% crits. For you different crit chances you would get:Unbuffed: 31% x 58% = 18.0 % DR gain Focus Aim: 76% x 58% = 44.1 % DR gain Trueshot: 41% x 58% = 23.8 % DR gain Focus+True: 86% x 58% = 49.9 %DR gainThe DR is calculated like this (if you didn't know): (High-Damage+Low-Damage)/Delay.If you want to know how much the damage is of 1 crit hit, it's between High-Damage+1 and High-Damage x 1.3.The values you gave for unbuffed and buffed are a bit strange btw. Unhasted delay on Wind Shaped would be 7 seconds.

Saurine

08-07-2007, 04:18 PM

All that was from doing /weapon stat. First one is with no buffs on at all. The second one is after I buffed for DPS mode I.E. your constant effect buffs. Saurine Lonewolf

Krontak

08-08-2007, 12:42 PM

Shame this is getting unstickied. Is it true the author really doesn't want this info posted anymore? Its a great resource.

Grimwell

10-26-2007, 02:28 PM

The original author of this thread is back on the game and has requested a sticky! I'm all about that since it's awesome and I'd like to see it maintained. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Rokjin

01-06-2008, 02:38 PM

Just a note that I have edited the first two posts, added some clarification that delay has no effect on min:max ratio and added a weapon dr calculation example.

FightGame

04-05-2008, 06:05 PM

For clarification, the OP means 30%, not 0.30%. If it really was 0.30% I don't think anybody would care about crits heh

Iron

09-09-2008, 02:18 PM

<cite>FightGame wrote:</cite><blockquote>For clarification, the OP means 30%, not 0.30%. If it really was 0.30% I don't think anybody would care about crits heh</blockquote>He means 0.30% per point of critical hit bonus. So at 100% crit bonus I'd be 30%, if I'm not mistaken.

SkyBee

05-01-2009, 06:28 PM

Very awesome thread.I hope this all still stands true with the new "crit bonus" stat introduced with the TSO content. I figure that 1.3 was the default crit bonus and the "crit bonus" stat is a buff to the 1.3. Am I reading this correctly, is the new "crit bonus" stat a percent buff of the 1.3?

theriatis

03-19-2010, 07:30 AM

Hi,with the new Expansion i heard rumors that Crit has been changed to be effective at 100% against any Mob (no more getting Crit to 140% to have it effective on a Lvl 95 Mob).As i heard also the opposite (you still need 130-140% Crit to net 100% Crit against a Lvl 95 Mob) could someone tell me which version is true ?Regards, Theriatis.

Jesdyr

03-19-2010, 10:56 AM

<cite>theriatis wrote:</cite><blockquote>could someone tell me which version is true ?</blockquote>No need to Necro a post that is 3 years old ... There is a <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=471667" target="_blank">thread</a> already about such things releated to changes put in with SF.